Welcome back.

SPC listeners.

I'm really sorry for the long absence, but it turns out becoming a full-time

flight instructor while also working in technology and another job and figuring

out how to be good at that whole flight instruction thing makes a lot of other

things in my life head to the back burner, but I couldn't wait on this one

We're again reaching into the archives.

But from a different podcast and a different time, but it's timely because

of the tragic events of this past weekend.

I hope you love this blast from the past.

Okay, so this past weekend we lost one of the greats from the air show circuit and

from aerobatic competition in Rob Holland.

But this episode is not about the tragic accident that took his life,

but rather a fond personal memory.

When Kent, Tiffany and I interviewed Rob for the pilot cast way back in 2018, I

figured since the Pilotcast is no longer being hosted anywhere anymore, and

the audio is effectively lost from the Podosphere, I'd stick it back in and I'd

do it here on the student pilot cast feed.

I hope you enjoy what was originally released as episode 90 of the pilot

cast rereleased here as episode 83 of the student pilot cast.

Listen to Rob Holland.

Give us a glimpse into the process and the preparation of

one of the greatest of all time

The episode is included here in its entirety, including the intro, the

music, and the outro of the old pilot.

Cast a welcome blast from the past if you ask me.

Enjoy.

Welcome to another episode of the Pilot, episode 90.

This is Pilot Tiffany.

Hi Bill.

And Pilot Kent.

And today we have a special guest, Rob Holland.

Yeah, so we,

I, I think we're, uh, we're maybe on the path to having new call signs.

'cause, you know, after this whole muting us for like eight years.

Uh, bill is here to, for called Buttons,

but you know, we had a little bit of a debacle, uh, scheduling tonight's episode.

Uh, Tiffany was having trouble with time zones and math and tried to clarify

something and actually made it worse.

So I think we're gonna have to call Tiffany Breitling and here's why.

She looks really good and everybody wants her because she looks good,

but nobody should be using her to tell time on a daily basis.

You know, I knew it, but I didn't realize you had a whole backstory, Kent.

That's great.

Look, I'm gonna just, I'm gonna put this out there right now.

If anyone out there from Brightling is listening, I would be more

than happy to wear your watch.

All right, Kent, you're, you're gonna get one here really soon.

Yeah.

I just have to do something stupid, I guess.

Well, hey, our next podcast is coming up soon, so.

Actually, what's your wife's phone number?

Oh boy.

She's probably got a list going, so,

yeah.

No, I'm kidding.

So we've got a special treat today.

Uh, we've got Rob Holland with us to talk about some of his.

Aerobatic flying.

Rob is an airshow pilot and a champion aerobatic pilot.

He's, uh, IAC and US National Aerobatic Championship and I believe that's

seven time US National Champion.

Uh, welcome Rob.

We're happy to have you.

Thanks.

Good to be here.

Excellent.

So there's a lot of stuff that we can talk to you about, but I want

to start with kind of the obvious.

Um, you've won the, the US National Championships seven times.

Seven times in a row.

In fact, I think.

Is that right?

Yeah, that's correct.

I've, uh, I've gotten pretty good at fooling the judges,

so it's gone pretty well.

Well, it's important to point out for those who don't follow that, that that

is, um, only been done by one other person, uh, ever to win at seven times,

and you've got an opportunity to break that record coming up here in the fall.

How are you feeling about that?

Yeah, uh, I'm feeling pretty good.

I mean, we'll see how it goes.

I'm gonna practice hard this year and go to the nationals and do my best.

And uh, you know, as long as I flew better than I did last

time, then that's a win for me.

So.

So do you, do you critique yourself a lot after those competitions?

Oh, always.

You know, if there's video, I'm always watching myself and trying to critique and

trying to figure out what I can do better.

And there's, there's always things to improve upon, so, yeah, it's just a,

it's an endless quest to get better.

Okay.

So I have a question about IAC and air shows.

What is the difference?

Because I have never been to an IAC competition before.

Um,

how do I make an analogy?

Uh, figure skating and icecapades.

That's the difference.

Um, so the IC so you guys are

wearing leotards.

No, no, no, not.

But one's a competition, one's a show.

So in a air show, you're trying to wild the crowd and you're trying to entertain

and try to show 'em things that hopefully they've never seen an airplane do before.

Depending upon what your act is, um, competition is about, you're in front of

judges and you're trying to fly the best and the most precisely you possibly can.

And the person who flies presents the flight.

The best wins.

And so this is all based off of precision flying?

Yes.

It's very, it's very, I mean, it's all precision.

Well, there's two contests in the unlimited level of competition.

There's what we call the classical, which is all about precision and

straight lines and perfect roles, and a, you know, a very precise sequence.

And then there's a freestyle, which is more air show ish type flying,

trying to, you know, wow the judges and show 'em things they haven't

seen before to come out on top.

Hmm.

And then what's the rules with, at an air show, you're flying in the

box and you can have spectators.

But at an IEC competition, is there a box?

I know that there's not, they can't advertise.

There's no big draw for spectators per se.

How does that work?

It's, uh, basically a, A rules.

So there is a box I.

For a competition, there's a, um, one kilometer by one kilometer,

walk by one kilometer box, and you have to try to keep everything in.

If you go outside of that box, there's a, there's penalty points.

Um, but the big difference is at an air show, you can't have any

aerobatic energy directed at the crowd for obvious safety reasons.

If something went wrong and they don't want an airplane plowing into the crowd.

At a competition is aerobatics done both, you know, to the

judge's left and right, the x axis and forward 'em back the Y axis.

So there is energy aerobatic, energy directed where a crowd may be.

So because of FA rules, we can't invite people to come watch.

If people know there's a competition they wanna come out and watch,

that's fine, but it can't be an adv because soon started advertising it.

In airshow, it starts falling under airshow rules, and now you can't have

energy directed at the crowd, and now basically you can't have a competition.

Interesting.

Okay.

So I know that you have a really funny story.

Um, would you tell us about your first competition?

Oh yeah.

It was a disaster.

It was way fun.

Set the stage for us.

I, um, well, I was working for Mike Ey at the time, constructing and running

his aerobatic program at his school.

And, uh, my first competition, I flew in sportsman.

I flew decathlon.

Um, it was all psyched up.

Went into the box.

I did the first figure, totally forgot about the second figure,

which meant the entire rest of the sequence went backwards.

So I got a pretty good score of my first figure, and I zeroed

the entire rest of the flight.

It didn't set off well and you do more than one flight.

The second flight it, it was better.

It wasn't great, but with that basically big set zero from the

first flight, I think I came in like last or second to last overall.

So I wasn't up to good start, but it kind of really got the juices

flowing and caught my interest and you know, I just kept going from there.

When did you know that?

When did you know that's what you wanted to do?

Um, a competition I kind of stumbled upon.

I didn't know I wanted to do that.

What I wanted to do was an airshow pilot.

Uh, and that's always been my goal and my, my passion and what I've worked towards.

And while working towards that and trying to figure out how to become

an airshow pilot and how to build my aerobatic skills and experience, I kind

of literally stumbled upon competition by working in Michael's school and.

Once I did my first contest and hang around a bunch of like-minded people

and you know, seeing I can do this sport and improve my skills and have

an actual way of measuring my skill and where the improvements are,

I just became fascinated with it.

So I get asked a lot, you know, would you like competition?

Do you like air shows?

Which like better And I really like 'em equally.

They're two kind of different things, but I enjoy 'em both quite a bit.

So there, I think there's a difference to your flying in competition versus

air shows and, and just talking to some of the other cool people on your team.

Um, uh, it sounds like you're pulling way more Gs in a competition

and then your full power the entire time during an air show.

So would you be able to.

Elaborate a little bit more as to like how the flying differs between

the competition and the air show.

Yeah.

I don't know if I would put it the way you just put it.

They, they are different.

Um, so again, with an air show, you're trying to do a show and you're

trying to be in front of the crowd and you're, you're setting a stage

and you're presenting a show to 'em.

So you're doing whatever it takes to put each figure exactly where it

needs to be in the box, present right with the crowd, and show it the best

that you can to be entertaining.

Uh, competition actually has a lot of the same elements 'cause you're trying

to present to the judges and you have a set box, but it's a lot more precise.

It's a lot more, I don't wanna say more aggressive, but more assertive.

Hmm.

Um,

so it is a little bit harder pulls and, you know, if you're gonna pull

to a vertical line and then you gotta push to a vertical line, the

push has to look the same as a pull.

So it's really hard.

Pushes lots of negative G. Um, so yeah, it's, it's, you pull

more g it's a little more.

Brutal in the body.

Um, but there are some elements of transfer.

I always tell people that air show flying really kind of destroys your

competition skills 'cause it's a little looser and you can get away with stuff

and, but competition really improves your air show skills because it brings

an element of situational awareness and precision and all that to your flying.

Hmm.

So you mentioned that you kind of got your start with, uh, competitions,

uh, while you were working for Mike Gian, but how did you get

your start in flying in general?

Were you part of a flying family or was that something you always wanted

to do, or how did you get into flying?

No, I, uh, nobody in my family flies.

I'm the only one, uh, I. It started kind of really young.

I was three and two things happened when I was three.

Um, I saw St. Star Wars when it first came out and thought the

Millennium Falcon was the coolest thing I've ever seen in my life.

Obviously that kind

of sparked a flying interest.

Um, my mom, lot of people don't know this.

My mom, way back when, actually brought me to local airport and they had a

penny, a pound for kids to go flying.

So I went flying in Cessna back then.

I don't remember anything about it, but she told me I went up an Cessna back then.

Um, so I think that got my fascination with flying.

And then, um, it's kind of a long story, but I ended up going to an air show, saw

people flying upside down, and all the models I had of airplanes after that were

hanging upside down from the ceiling.

I was just, I was just fascinated by it.

So that

was always the goal in the back of my mind.

I didn't know how to get there.

I didn't know how to become an air show pilot, but that's,

that's the journey I, I started.

I'm a big fan of this.

Part of the story where you are in college, you picked a college specifically

because they had aerobatic airplanes.

But, um, can you go and talk about the time that you were

walking around the airplane?

You're taking pictures and you meet Oh, your, your first contact.

Your guy.

Yeah.

So I. I, I went to Daniel after college and I got my degree in, uh,

aviation, aviation flight operations.

And that's where I learned how to fly and got all my ratings.

But being at the, uh, Nashville Airport in New Hampshire, I was just walking around

the airport one day checking out airplanes 'cause I'm an aviation geek like that.

And, um, I saw this gentleman washing a, a steam sky ball,

uh, kinda like a overgrown pits.

So I walked up to him and I thought it was, it was a

beautiful, beautiful airplane.

So I asked him if I could take a picture of it.

And he was like, yeah, but would you rather go flying?

So I was like, yeah.

So he stuck me in the front.

We went flying and that was my very first loop and roll.

And that just kind of reaffirmed everything.

I already know that, okay, this is a cool thing ever and I wanna

do this for the rest of my life.

So he actually became a really good friend.

I ended up flying his airplane a lot, built some Atic skills in that plane, and

to this day, he's one of my best friends.

Wow.

That's cool.

It's a good thing.

You were assertive as an 18-year-old, huh?

Yeah.

Well, at least I asked if I could take a picture of his airplane.

You okay?

Have a little funny side story to that.

Yeah, absolutely.

All right, so I think it was my sophomore, junior year of

college, um, his name is Ned.

He called me up and said, Hey, I'm gonna take the sky bolt out to Oshkosh.

Do you want to go?

It's like, yeah, I've never been to Oshkosh before.

How cool would that be to show up my first Oshkosh in a cool biplane?

So we jumped in this airplane and had out one of our fuel stops was

planning on being, uh, Niagara Falls.

We're about 10 miles from the airport and all of a sudden there's oil on

the front, windscreen like, ah, crap.

So we land and we blew out the front prop seal.

So we ended up getting stuck overnight in Niagara Falls.

We stayed at the Bit O Paris Hotel, which I don't recommend to anyone ever.

Um, we had picked up with like a day and a half delay trying to get this Frank Seal

fixed and then we made it up to Oshkosh.

It was a great time.

So fast forward multiple, multiple years.

I get my first MX two and I call up Ned and say, Hey, I have my first airplane.

It's mine, two seater.

Lemme return the favor.

Jump in the front.

Let me take it.

Oshkosh.

Kind of like close the circle, like cool.

So he jumps in the front, we fly out.

My first fuel stop's gonna be Niagara Falls.

Get about 10 miles from the airport.

The engine starts running like really bad.

So we land.

Turns out I got a clogged seal injector.

So we clean out the injector.

I go out to the runway just to a full power run to make sure it works.

My right tire goes flat, and when it went flat, the way the brakes

was set up, it actually grinded the brake line right off the c. Ah, so,

oh.

We got stuck there overnight.

Got it all fixed a couple days later.

Pull out there.

Had a great time at Oshkosh.

Please tell me, please tell me you stayed in the same hotel.

No, no, no, we didn't.

I didn't.

I don't think it existed anymore.

That many years later.

On the way back to New Hampshire, I said, we are not stopping in Niagara Falls.

He goes, agree.

So we're flying over the top of Niagara Falls.

And the engine starts running like crap.

End up on another CLO had Niagara Falls, so him and I in an airplane,

we always have to stay at least 100 miles away from Niagara Falls.

Oh, that's, oh man, that's terrible.

So how many times have you been back to, uh, back to Oshkosh

since you go every year?

Fly in it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, for the past.

I dunno, eight years or so, nine years.

I've been flying it every year.

So quite a bit.

It's uh, I mean it's always amazing, but it's kind of part of the job now,

right?

Yeah.

It's probably different, um, flying in as an attendee than it is

flying in as a, uh, performer, huh?

Yeah.

It's a lot easier to get in.

You don't have to get line.

We kind of have our way of getting it, which is nice.

So when you're at Oshkosh.

What's it like taxiing around out there, trying to get up and go do your show?

That that place seems like it's pretty clogged up.

It's horrible.

It's, I mean, it's, it's awesome because it's Oshkosh, right?

You're surrounded by airplanes on like the mecca of aviation, but where

they parked, the performers is on the, uh, north side of the airport by the

weeks hanger, and we gotta relocate the air show center for the show.

And if you just taxi there, literally it's like 45 minutes to an hour to get there.

Trying to cross runways and all.

I mean, it's just, it's a nightmare.

So it's actually quicker.

To taxi out, take off on 9 2, 7, go out, practice cross over and land on

the other runway and get to show center.

That's like 25 minutes as opposed to an hour taxi,

including the practice.

Yep.

Way easy to fly to the other side than just the taxi.

Yeah, that's, yeah, that's, that might be the only airport in the world that, that

that's true during that week at least.

Excellent.

So you mentioned, you mentioned your MX two.

Um, tell me about your, um, the, the airplane you use in

competition and performance.

The one I was using, the one I'm using now,

I guess The one you were using.

Yeah.

It's important to note that you lost an airplane recently, didn't you?

Yeah.

Um, so I actually, I started off at an MX two, which is what I'm using now.

Um, I won the World Advanced Atic Championships.

I did in 2008, and then 2011 I got my MXS, which is a single seater.

And, uh, it was kind of custom tailored to things I wanted with the airplane.

I mean, a lot of MX experience by then.

I, everything worked, but I knew what I wanted to work more.

Um, worked with the company and they were gracious enough to trust me that.

Some ideas I had might actually work and they turned out that they did.

And it is just an amazing airplane.

I mean, it was an airplane that, anything I thought of it, I could probably figure

out how to do it with that airplane.

The, uh, updates that you made to it or the changes that you had the

company help you make, um, to squeeze a little extra performance, maybe a

little extra maneuverability out of it.

Um, what kind of things are you looking for there?

Uh.

Just more, you know, a lot of people think less is more, and

I've always thought more is more.

So,

you know, it was little things like, um, we took the rudder and, um, I,

I am not an engineer and I'm totally talking outta school, but my little

theory is that the top end of the rudder kind of makes the rudder heavier.

It doesn't do that much work and actually adds a roll element to the airplane

because it's kinda like a big Aron sticking up and all the rudder down

the bottom kind of does all the work.

And doesn't add a rollout in it.

So we took area off the top of the rudder, added it to the bottom of the rudder.

We brought the rudder to a point set of a curve, just

'cause it, it looks way cooler.

Um, the rudder used to have concave skins on it, which adds stability.

And I, I don't want stability.

Who wants stability?

Right.

Exactly.

Put flats on it, which make them more effective and less stability.

And we gave kind of ridiculous amount of deflection.

The rudder was already awesome and it just was way more awesome once we did that.

And we made some changes to the elevator as far as area on it.

Um, the canopy, we took a Red Bull race canopy and modified

with more glass, basically just 'cause it looked really cool.

Who doesn't want their airplane to look really cool?

Modified the cowling a little bit at the wingtip.

Modified the seat.

Uh, so the way I wanted it to kind of refine and feel and just ended up with

the airplane in the ways that way that it was, and amazingly, everything I want

changed actually worked really well.

So I got lucky.

Maybe you are an, an engineer, don't even know it.

Um, uh, I think I

just got lucky.

Right?

I have a feeling that your airplane might be hard for a guy like me to fly.

Um, what's amazing about the MX airplanes.

Is that that, I mean, it's a high performance airplane, right?

So you have to have a little bit of a skill set and that type of plane to fly

it, but to just get in and fly it around.

If you're a pretty confident air wheel pilot, it's a very easy airplane to fly.

You know, if you want to get in and fly from point A to

point B, it's a great airplane.

If you wanna do mild aerobatics, it's really easy.

Well, the amazing thing about it's when you really start pushing

things, you can just keep push.

You can keep asking it for more, and they'll keep giving it to.

So it's, it's not a hard airplane to fly.

Um, you gotta watch out for some things when you really start pushing

it, but it, it just allows you to keep growing with the airplane.

If you want more, it gives you more.

Hmm.

Well, are you, are you gonna do more of the same, uh, with the airplane you

are, you're building to replace it?

Yeah, so, uh, I got a really good relationship with MX Aircraft.

MX Aircraft is under new ownership now.

There's a gentleman in Australia who bought the company.

Really, really good guy.

Has a lot of great plans for it.

Um, but yeah, I've been working with him.

Uh, we've been on the phone a lot and exchanging emails and.

He basically told me, you know, whatever things I want for the

airplane, he wants for the airplane.

'cause they obviously worked.

So it, um, on the outside it will look a lot like the airplane I had,

uh, with some subtle changes here or there to it, but it'll, it'll be cool.

It'll be.

If I can say it on a podcast, it'll be a badass airplane.

Absolutely.

You can say that.

So one other thing as we were, um, kind of talking about your, your

record, um, of seven US National Championships, um, the person you're

tied with, how well do you know him?

Biller?

Yeah.

Um, un unfortunately I never got a chance to meet him.

Um, he is an amazing av.

I got to see him fly, uh, twice actually at Oshkosh.

Um, I mean, he was just unbelievable.

He was the man.

Um, obviously I've kind of studied him and read about him, has been

lucky enough to meet his daughters.

They've told me a lot about him and he was, I mean, just kind of the king

of air show and competition flying.

What I loved about his show is that especially their show stuff, is that

there was always something going on.

I mean, if you blink, you're gonna miss something, which is kind of how I've

always wanted to structure my show.

If you blink, you're gonna miss something.

I think that, uh, Kent had an opportunity to see Leo fly at least once.

Yeah, it was actually my very first Oshkosh that my dad took me to.

I believe it was 1987.

Um, and yeah, I remember three things from Oshkosh that year.

One was the Voyager, which had just completed, its around the

world, non refueled flight.

Um, then there was the, uh, the Coors Light Silver Bullets.

Uh, it was a force ship formation of BD five j's, little tiny experimental

jets, uh, that did an aerobatic act.

And.

I remember Leo Louden logger, and I remember, I don't remember specific

things about his show, but yeah, I remember just being completely

blown away right from the beginning.

I mean, one of the things that was done back then that doesn't seem to get

done anymore was every performer did a snap roll at about 50 a GL on takeoff.

Um.

Then, I don't know if there were just too many crashes doing that sort of thing or

what happened to that, but, um, yeah, I remember, uh, at the beginning of Leo's

act right from that takeoff snap roll all the way through is just incredible.

Yep.

Just nonstop action.

It was great.

And then obviously as a competition pilot, I mean, his, his record speaks for itself.

He is a world champion and a seven time national atic champion,

so he was, he was incredible.

Yeah.

Speaking of, uh, now say,

uh, also about a letter that you wrote to Patty Wagstaff.

Could you talk about that a little bit?

Oh, I almost forgot about that.

Um, what are we going with it?

So.

One of the mechanics that used to work on her airplane is a guy named Dennis Sawyer.

Really, really amazing, um, mechanics, especially for erratic aircraft.

And he was outta my home airport in Nashua.

So I remember being there one day and uh, there's Patty's airplane sitting there.

It's like, holy cow.

So I actually wrote a note to her, um, saying who I was and I was a fan.

I thought she was amazing and.

I wanted to get into the competition someday and I can't remember

everything I wrote in the note and I literally just kind of reached

in and stuck it in her cockpit.

So like three or four weeks later, I got a letter in the mail and was a

signed thing from her saying she got my letter and definitely check out

the IAC and go for competition and go for air shows and, you know, just kind

of patted me in the back through a letter, so to speak, and said Go for it.

How, uh, how early was that in your career?

Um, I was in college, so I don't know, it might've been like

my sophomore or junior year.

Okay.

So you, I mean, you knew that that was your goal for sure, and that

was before you had gotten that big fat zero on your first competition.

Right?

Yeah, again, I think I talked to her more about um, airshow flying in competition.

'cause I really didn't know a lot about competition yet.

Um, but airshows, since I was a kid, was always the goal.

You know, there's never been a plan B because if you have a Plan B, you kind

of fall back on it 'cause it's easier.

So I figured if I didn't have a plan B, I'd have no choice

but to somehow appeal plan A.

I like it.

Words of wisdom.

So speaking about how you kind of, um, at least modeled, um, the amount of action

within your show after, after Leo's shows, how would you say your style and

your approach to aerobatics, whether it's air shows or competition, differs

from your colleagues or your competitors?

Depending on what we're talking about.

Um, I'm gonna talk very generally when I say that because there's a lot of really

amazing performers out there, but I see a lot of people that watch other people

and try to copy what other people do.

And I kind of took the approach of watching other people, seeing what

they do, and then trying not to do any of that because who wants to watch

the same thing over and over again?

Um, I've always wanted to be different, unique.

I've wanted to try to make my own style.

I mean, I'm obviously influenced by people.

I'm influenced by like precision to my Goan and the crate, uh, the

perceived craziness of Sean Tucker and, um, a nonstop action of, of Leo.

But I, I want him to be.

Me, I didn't wanna be a copy of them.

Um, and I always ask a lot of questions.

Uh, I've just always been curious about aerobatics and why certain

things go a certain way and why certain things aren't done.

Um, and I would always get the answer, well, just, you know,

the airplane can't do that.

I'd be like, well, why not?

I'd always like study it and think about it and think about the physics

and the aerodynamics, the stereoscopics, and just try to figure new stuff out.

Try to think outside the box and come up with new, new stuff.

So if you look at aerobatics and the history of, especially with air

shows, it's like everybody does the same thing and then someone comes

along and there's this like spike.

And then it plateaus again, and everyone copies that person for 10, 15 years.

And it's all the same things and there's a spike.

And when I kind of came into it, there was just this plateau going on.

Everyone was doing the same thing.

So just, you know, because I'm obsessed with it, I try to think outside

the box and try to do my own thing.

And I just want to evolve the sport.

I wanna try to bring it to the next level, come up with new things,

and then somewhere down the line someone can pick up on that and take

it to the next level, even beyond.

But it just, it has to grow and not be stagnant.

Right.

Interesting.

Okay, so it sounds like there's obviously, I mean this, this is pretty obvious.

There's a lot of creativity, um, that goes behind this and you get your

inspiration from a lot of other people, but try to take it to the next level.

Um, would you mind, um, going into a little bit your process of.

Of, you know, trying to figure something out.

I mean, to a, a non aerobatic pilot like me, um, that sounds, you

know, a little scary and dangerous.

So how do you, what is your process of creativity as you kind of

try and figure these things out?

Is there a lot of ground time or do you do it mostly in the air

or is it combination of both?

Uh, it takes a long time.

So, you know, people, including other erratic pilots, they what

they see as the end result, right?

And they're like, oh, that's really cool and crazy, and then

they go out and try to do it.

What they don't see is that, you know, it starts off with like waking up

at two in the morning and going, oh man, I wonder if an airplane can do

what I just dreamt about, you know?

And then it's really just.

I'll think about it for months and months and months, and I'll think

about how do I manipulate the controls?

How do I manipulate the gyroscopic of the prop?

What's happening aerodynamically?

What could go wrong?

What could it develop into?

What's the end result of holding the inputs in that I.

Position for too long, and you just keep going over in your mind and

trying to think of all the variables and, and what's actually happening.

And then you, then you try it in the airplane and if you've thought

of it right, and it's actually possible, you kind of know right

away if it's gonna work or not.

And quite frankly, there's a lot of times you're like, okay, no, that's,

an airplane is never gonna do that.

But every now and then you fumble up on something where.

There is and there's potential.

Um, I do a thing, I call it the inside tumble.

You know, I saw planes tumbling negatively for years when the nose goes

down and it tumbles around its access.

Yep.

And I always ask, why don't they tumble the other way?

And I got the answer that they just won't go that way.

Well, why not?

I mean, the airplane shouldn't care which way it's going.

Aerodynamics and gyroscopic.

Aerodynamics and gyroscopic.

Yeah.

And the airplane's not really flying at that point.

Right.

So.

I, I mean, yeah.

I mean, yeah, it's, it's, it's a long physics lesson, but, yeah.

Um, but so I, I thought about it forever and I tried to figure out, and finally

one day I, I actually got it to work.

I was like, holy cow.

And then I couldn't get it to work again for like a month, and then slowly I

figured out again and I practiced it.

And so what people don't see is like from when I first thought of it,

from when I figured it out to, when I finally introduced it to an air show,

it was almost two and a half years.

Wow.

That's people, it's, it's an

amazing maneuver.

I gotta say, I've watched it.

Um, and a lot of the maneuvers that are kind of unique and different,

just, it's the same process.

It takes a long time Before I put in an air show, a question I get

a lot is, you know, what's the hardest figure you do in an air show?

And honestly, the answer is none of them.

Because if it was hard, I wouldn't put it in a show because it

should be second nature and easy.

So you know what the, how it's gonna end.

And you know, for safety reasons, when I first tried to

figure out it was pretty hard.

But by the time you actually put it in an air show, it shouldn't be hard anymore.

Huh.

Oh, that's really

interesting.

You have a quote here.

Uh, it's a disease to me, I'm consumed by the thought of flight on average.

How often, I mean, if this is waking you up at night, how often are

you, are you thinking about this?

It seems like you're kind of like a mad scientist trying to engineer these

different maneuvers and, and pushing these boundaries and capabilities.

But if you were to cognizantly, pay attention to how.

Often you're thinking about different ways to, to handle that airplane.

What, what would you say about on average a day is.

I mean, I don't know about average per day, but it, it's all the time.

I mean, I'm, I'm, wait, how often are

you not thinking about

these maneuvers?

Well, there are a couple other things I enjoy, but we won't talk about that.

Um,

no, I, I'm.

I'm really thinking about it all the time.

It's just, I'm just consumed with it.

I mean, it's my passion.

I, I'm really lucky that my job is my hobby, right?

So I have the luxury of thinking about it all the time.

I don't have to think about what do I have to do in the office

today, or other things like that.

So I can think about it all the time.

Yeah.

And, uh, yeah,

it's just, it is kind of like a

disease.

I'm just kind of obsessed with it.

So do you name any of the, the moves that you have for any of your other interests?

I'm just kidding.

Um,

that's,

that's good.

That's the best question I've heard in a long time.

So, um, I, I do have a question for you, um, about that process

that you were talking about.

You're going into detail.

Thank you for that.

It's really interesting, um, when you're thinking about whether, um, a plane can

do something that you're imagining, I. Do you ever consult with the guys at, uh, MX

or do you ever talk to, um, aeronautical engineers that you know, or anything like

that about how you might be able to do it?

Or is it sort of, um, something you, a process you go through on your own

and you kind of do it instinctively?

I, I go through it on my own.

I mean, I'm, I mean, it's the most respectful way, but most of those

people are the ones who will tell you that you, you can't do that.

You can't do it.

Yeah.

So I don't really consult them.

Um, no, I just think about it on my own.

I just kind of obsess on it and broad diagrams and think about it

and practice it, and yeah, just, it's mostly just me and my mind.

And like I said.

You know, if I come up with 10 ideas, two of them might work.

Yeah.

So there's, there's a lot of failure too, and there's a lot of things you figure

out, okay, that's kinda ridiculous.

An airplane can't do that.

Well, maybe your next airplane, can you gonna try 'em all again?

Yeah, maybe.

Maybe.

We'll see.

There's way more stuff to be done out there.

So if I can go with a couple more things.

Huh?

Do you write 'em down?

Okay.

So you can remember what you've been thinking about and, you know, doing

thought processes in your head about?

No.

Um,

I, I mean, like I said, it's kinda like a disease, so I haven't

really forgotten any of my ideas.

Huh.

And I don't really write 'em down.

You are

a imaginist.

I'm more likely to lose the paper that I write it down on that I'm, forget it.

So

interesting.

It's like a craftsman of aviation.

Yeah.

You know, talking about writing stuff down, we can segue into, uh, what you

wrote down on the piece of paper that you wanted to be US National Champion.

We, what she talked about is.

Basically that first contest, you know, it was, it was eye-opening and

I realized that this is another aspect of aerobatics that I really want to do.

And, uh, I just kind of told myself, I said, in 10 years I'm gonna be

the national aerobatic champion.

That's what, that was my goal to work on.

And it was almost 10 years for the month that I won my first national championship.

And you have continued to win every year.

Thereafter.

Yeah.

So, so I gotta ask you about that goal that you wrote down for yourself, um,

about being national champion in 10 years and then doing it almost to the day.

I mean, it sounds like a movie script, right?

Yeah.

How much pressure were you putting yourself under that first year you won it?

I mean, was this something that you felt like it's do or die, this is my 10 years?

Or had you kind of forgot about it until after you did it?

No, I have a pretty, I got a unique way of approaching competition.

I wish more people would do this 'cause they probably fly better.

Um, it competition or bads is not a defensive sport, right?

There's nothing I can do to manipulate what someone else is gonna do

in their cockpit when they fly.

So the only thing I can do is go out there and fly the best that I can and try

to fly better than I flew yesterday or the day before that, or day before that.

And that's always been my approach.

So I don't get nervous with the judges.

I don't get nervous with the competition.

'cause I mean, you are kind of competing against everybody, but I'm really

just competing against myself, trying to be the best pilot that I can be.

It's all about self-improvement.

So I didn't really put a lot of pressure on myself.

It just, it ended up being 10 years later, I was at the nationals.

I was flying unlimited and I won.

Just worked out, huh?

Just like that.

Meanwhile, the rest of us are like, holy cow.

That's incredible,

huh?

So you're saying that your biggest competition is Rob Holland?

I.

Absolutely.

That's some stiff competition you got there.

Well, well, I mean, every, everyone's competition in is really themselves.

Who else can they compete against?

True.

Right?

It's if, if you beat everybody else, but you flew worse than you did

last time, to me, that's not a win.

Maybe there should be some defensive flying.

How, how cool would it be for like a, a combat.

Um, you, national championship.

Yeah.

I, I think they do that.

It's called the military.

Oh,

I was gonna

say.

Yeah, right.

Absolutely.

When you said that you, you, there's, it's not a defensive sport.

There's nothing you can do.

I started thinking, wow, what if you could,

yeah.

Well,

nothing you can legitimately do not, not being sportsman.

Huh.

So what you're saying then is you're gonna be going for your eighth

national championship this, this fall.

Mm-hmm.

Um, yep.

And you're gonna get in that cockpit, and it's gonna be like any other

competition because you're just gonna try and fly better than you

did the day before in practice.

Yeah.

And that's, it's probably one of the biggest advantages I have

is that I don't get nervous.

I'm not, you know, desperately watching the other guy to see how he does.

'cause it doesn't really matter how he does.

I'm, I gotta fly as good as I can.

I'll watch him for cues and, you know, see what the wind's doing and

whether they're getting blown and how I'm gonna adjust my sequence.

But it's.

It's really, it's really a competition against myself.

I mean, my goal all along has been to be the best atic pilot that I can be,

and I don't feel like I'm there yet.

I feel like I still have quite a ways to go to be the best

atic pilot that I can be.

So that's one of the reasons for competition.

It makes you push yourself, it makes you.

It puts you in front of the judges so you can actually measure where

you are and how you're doing.

Hmm.

So all the airshows that you're gonna do over the summer, which

is airshow season of course.

Um, mm-hmm.

The conventional wisdom, like you said, uh, at the top of the

interview, um, is that it's gonna make your flying less precise.

When do you cut that off and start preparing for the, the competition?

It is, it's tough.

I mean, competition, I'm sorry.

Air shows do help competition a small way, basically for positioning

and being able to put figures exactly where you want to put 'em.

Because flying in an air show, it's if you're doing it right, it's about that.

It's putting stuff where you want 'em to be most entertaining.

So that side of it kind of helps.

And I try to take a conscious effort to make everything in my

air show as precise as I can to try to keep the competition skills up.

But I'll take a few weeks during the season and say, okay, this week

I'm gonna do a camp with some people and I'm gonna practice competition.

I'm gonna brain dump air shows for this week, practice competition stuff, and

then I'll just turn back on air show stuff next week when I start doing that again.

And then I'll also take a week and a half to two weeks right before the

nationals and dedicate that time to just practicing competition stuff,

trying to turn off air show mode and get back into the competition mode.

It's tough.

It's not a, not a very easy balancing act.

It's, it's

pretty

kind of

a state of mind, but that's, that's how I do it.

Do you, do you set the airplane up any differently for competition?

No.

Um,

I used to, and then I realized by doing that I was kind of

flying two different airplanes.

Mm-hmm.

And, you know, I was set up in certain, I won't get into all the details, but

certain ways it made, like some of the air shows stuff a little bit easier.

But it made some of the competition stuff a little bit harder and I, I just stopped.

I figured, you know what, why don't I just get better at the air show

stuff so I don't have to make it easier myself, you know, become,

I think that's the better option.

And then I'm flying the same airplane all the time and you know, in the long

run, it just makes everything easier.

All right.

So I know that you are.

Pretty big on Instagram and your social media, Facebook especially,

but I always see you hashtagging fly.

Good.

Don't suck.

Is that original to Rob Holland or what's the, what's the history behind that?

Uh, 2011 at the World Air at Championships in Italy.

Um, one of my teammates there, Tim Justs, was getting ready to

go and he was kind of nervous.

You know, he is at his first world championship in front

of international judges and.

A lot of pressure.

And, uh, Jesse was closing the canopy.

I, I kind of don't know where it came from.

I just tried to be funny and cheer him up a little bit.

I kind of stuck my head and was like, Hey, man, fly good and don't suck.

And he kind of chuckled and I was like, you know, that

actually kind of makes sense.

And it kind of sums everything up.

So when everyone would go fly, I'd just tell him to fly good and don't suck.

And it just kind of, it just kind of stuck.

It just kind of ran, ran from there.

Became your tagline almost Huh?

The aerobatic version of Break a Leg.

Kinda, yeah.

Yeah.

That's pretty good.

I saw you opened up a store on your website too.

Looks like you guys have those, uh, shirts available and all kinds of swag.

Yeah.

Lot good.

Don't suck shirts.

Yep.

Simplest thing.

Well, now I want one.

I know.

Me too.

Ww.

Always, always time to plug your website.

Exactly.

That's pretty good.

So Rob, where else can people find you on Twitter and Facebook and

Instagram and all those places?

Uh, Facebook.

It's facebook.com/ultimate Airshows, Instagram and Twitter.

It's uh, Rob Holland, 5 1 5 0.

What is 5 1 5 0.

Well, I'm a big Van Halen fan.

They had an album 51 50, but what 51 50 is, is a, uh, California

Police Code for Crazy and Insane.

Yeah,

I was wondering.

All right.

Yeah, that's pretty good.

Well, Rob, we thank you so much for coming and talking to us a little bit tonight.

And we appreciate the insights into your process and, and best of luck to

you going forward in your air shows this summer, but also in the, what

I think is a very important national championship coming up in the fall.

Yep.

It's, uh, it's, it's a big one.

I will, uh, do what I always do is show up and do my best.

You'll fly good and not suck.

I'll fly Good and not suck.

Well, cool.

We'll be paying attention and definitely rooting you on.

Where, where's, appreciate that.

Oh, I was gonna ask where's the competition?

But are you even allowed to say,

is that the Nationals promoting?

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's gotta be an it's, it's actually at Oshkosh this year.

Hmm.

Like.

Yep.

And is it usually after Osh the

place, not Oshkosh, the event.

Oh, got it.

Osh got it.

Oshkosh, believe it or not, does actually exist the other

51 weeks a year I've been there.

It, it's at Whitman Field and Oshkosh.

It is not an air venture.

Oh, darn.

Very precise language there.

Yep.

Yeah.

Excellent.

Well, thanks again, Rob.

My pleasure.

Thank you guys.

Thanks for joining us for another episode of the Pilot Cast.

If you wanna learn more about us, go ahead and check us out on Facebook,

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We'll see you next time.

Pilot Cast is edited by Bill Williams and Steve Tupper is in charge of the music.

The Air crew is made up of Tiffany Wolf, Kent Shook, and Bill Williams.

You can find contact information for the entire pilot, cast, crew, and

detail from each episode@pilotcast.com.

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