Bayan on Demand offers a growing library of courses taught by highly regarded scholars and practitioners. Designed for masjid board members, school administrators, imams, chaplains, youth workers, parents, and more. With classes on Islamic theology, adolescent development, non profit management, and the history of Islam in America and more, Bayan on Demand provides accessible knowledge for just 10 a month. Join our growing community of learners today and support the work of Bayan Islamic Graduate School and the Muhammad Ali Scholarship. Go to bayanonline. org, that's B A Y A N, online, dot org, to get more information. As salamu alaykum. May the peace that only God can give be upon you. Welcome to the American Muslim Podcast presented by Bayan On Demand. I'm your host, Imam Tariq El- Amin. This is the space where we go beyond the headlines and the work itself to meet the people behind it, the leaders, the thinkers, and the change makers who shape the American Muslim experience. We explore their journeys that brought them here, the ideas that drive them, and the pivotal moments that define their path. Along the way, we will also learn about their connection to Bayan Islamic Graduate School and how it has helped to inform their leadership and vision. Join us each week as we learn, reflect, and grow together. Today, I am honored to welcome Sadia Jalili to the podcast. Sadiya is a licensed marriage and family therapist supervisor who has dedicated the past 18 years to supporting the Muslim community in Houston. She holds a master's degree in family therapy and recently completed a master's in Islamic studies from Bayan Islamic Graduate School, further equipping her to serve the community. Through her practice, Solace Therapy, she provides counseling for individuals and families, and she also shares Muslim friendly relationship insights through her social media platform, Muslim Bliss. And beyond all of that, her most cherished role is being a mother to seven children ranging from college aged to toddlers. Alhamdulillah. Sister Sadia, welcome to the American Muslim Podcast. As salamu alaykum.

Wa alaykum as salam. So happy to be here, Brother Tariq. Thank you so much for having me.

Well, thank you for making the time. We begin by inviting you to be as transparent. And as open as you are comfortable being and telling your story.

Absolutely.

Looking at where you are right now, can you identify a moment, an event, or maybe even a person that influenced your life trajectory?

Oh, that is a very tough question. I often think about this and I feel we plan and I love plans and the last plans are always better. that is, that is the motto of my life. it is just, you think you're going one direction and, Things just happen and you just are in a different direction, right? And, SubhanAllah, I feel like that has been the case just all along. And there's these, now that I can look back a little bit, there's like these full circle moments where something that transpired 15 to 20 years ago, there's this culmination that happens at some point. And, SubhanAllah, that's a little, and I'll talk about that. That's a little bit how Bayan feels for me, but I'll explain that in a minute. it's an interesting trajectory. I have to say. I grew up wanting to be something in psychology because I liked it and I thought it was good at it. And people just naturally talked to me and told me things. I was like, why am I the secret keeper? what is this? I don't want, that's not a role you want when you're like a teenager, I'm going to try to speed through this, but basically, I grew up in a brown household and psychology really wasn't a thing. They didn't understand what that was. They didn't My parents were just like, okay, like not super, they weren't like, no, you can't, but they were like, is this real? This is real. had to come up with something more interesting. And in undergrad, it was something called industrial organizational psychology and, or social organizational psychology. And it's a little, it hangs into the business realm a little bit. and so it felt more real, to them, to me, Ooh, crazy. Got into Columbia University for their social organizational psychology program, moved to New York City in August of 2001. a few things happened the month after September of 2001. As the world would have it, and as Allah would have it, I ended up moving, I ended up leaving because it was a bit of a chaotic time. If people can go back to that time, a lot happened, and there was a lot of uncertainty in the world. I was living alone even though I was married at the time, yeah, it didn't feel safe as a, hijabi, Muslim at the time. And so anyway, I moved back to Houston, was a little bit like. What am I doing with my life, what's happening right now, because, a big change happened. And I met somebody at a dinner gathering that was talking about being in a marriage and family therapy program, It's an old friend of mine. And, she, I was like, huh, this is interesting. And I still live, loved my psychology side. Again, fast forward, alhamdulillah got into that program and, have just built from that point on and I think my biggest draw at that time was I didn't know any Muslim therapists. I knew maybe one, in the city, maybe one, maybe two. Really, I think just one kind of sticks out at the moment. So I was like, this is an area I don't see any Muslims doing so wanted to dive into their right. Let me type out really quick into this when you said, cause it's an interesting question when you said, what's that turning point moment, right? So I was really fortunate from the lab, really blessed in my teen years, later teen years to be in a very consistent Holocaust group. In Houston, and it was by mostly taught by a brother named Pervez Ahmed. he actually lives up in the Bay area now, but it was, and a few other brothers that were really, dedicated to books and learning, right? we started organizing conferences, programs, right? you know, Imam Siraj Dr. Sherman Jackson, and just a bunch of people would come through and do speeches, Dr. Jamal Budwe, just lots of different speakers at the time. We used to do a lot of work. So my passion really became Islamic studies, to be honest, right? But again, as Just Allah would have it, I'd gotten married and lots of stuff happened, and the trajectory to formally study Islam didn't happen, right? And then fast forward 20 something years, right? Where I've gone to classes and lectures and studied in every capacity that I could at the time. Okay. And, a coworker or not coworkers, she's a friend of mine, but my children's Islamic school, she's also a graduate from Bayan. Zohra Razak started the program at BAYAN. And it was like, tell me more, so finding a program that could let me have the life that I had at the moment, I was actually a single mom of four. And, To be able to do a master's in Islamic studies at my age was like the most exciting thing. I cannot explain to you. Okay. It was just like the most exciting thing in the world. And the, really the most exciting part was the scholars, the people, the teachers that were coming, when I heard about which teachers were teaching these classes, I was like, that's it. That's it. alhamdulillah, alhamdulillah man happened. So it's good. It's like, how did you get there? curve balls. And I don't. Yeah, so

were your parents the stereotypical immigrant Muslim parents who only want their children to be? Engineers are doctors.

Yep. Oh, they were like, why aren't you a doctor? Why aren't you a doctor? Begging me to be a doctor, please be a doctor.

What have you taken from all of these curve balls aside from obviously a profound trust that Allah knows what Allah is doing, right? But were you able to see any of those things happening in the moment?

no. And I think this is what I try to impart on my kids. that Tawakkul at the end of the day, is trusting God when in your brain it doesn't make sense. It's like trusting God when it's hard. It's trusting God when you don't get it. and That's hard. That's really hard. And, but I feel like, no, in the moment, I really don't believe I understood what was going to happen next. I just knew that when I did the family therapy program, I was like, there's a void, there's a need in this community. And I would love to, be a part of that. I would love to be a part of the solution, right? Some do something about this. And as time has passed, because I'd always. on my side, you know on the side through classes, through whatever conferences, books, whatever had studied Islam. I wanted to find a way to Bring that to the table, too. So when you're taught psychology and Western, in the secular, they keep it very secular, right? You're literally taught in your classes back then. Don't bring God in the room. Don't bring God in the room, right? I'm a Muslim, God's here. I don't know what to tell you. we don't do that. we don't play that game, right? God is just here because it's here and that's just it. Like I can't remove it, And so I think feeling comfortable in that is another reason why it was always important for me to study in some capacity was that I wanted to have a comfort and a confidence in what I'm saying. If I'm talking about Islam, I don't want to come from an ignorant place. I wanted to come from somewhat of an educated place, at least the best of my ability.

I know that perception shapes reality for better or for worse. Historically, marriage, counseling, family therapy, mental health. I know that's a different track, but those things have not always been viewed favorably within the Muslim community. There's been skepticism about its utility, and while that perception is shifting, have you encountered resistance to the idea of therapy in your work? and if so, how have you navigated those challenges?

Yeah, that's actually, especially when I first started, you're right, it has improved, I would say, in the last few years, but, And I'll talk about that in a minute too, because I almost feel like there's been a pendulum swing. We've gone the other way where it's yeah, guys, life is hard. I don't know what to tell you. it is hard. We don't have to pathologize it. We don't have to call it, something because yeah, this is Dunya. so we'll get to that in a minute. But, I do think, at the time, there was just a complete denial, right? There was actually this idea of, You're having some troubles, go to your imam. Go talk to the Imam, figure it out. and some imams are able to do some of that. and many were not, many were honestly not equipped or taught some of that, and I think that would end up being a real disservice to the couple or the person really struggling with either mental health issues or bearable and family issues. I think they were not always given, the best advice because it simply wasn't their expertise. I don't think it was malicious. I don't think it was, bad intended or anything. It just simply wasn't their expertise and they were doing their best. And I feel like over time, there became this understanding. And what I would tell people is that, look, at the end of the day, what you're doing isn't working. What you have tried to do, even taking the advice from the, like it, your situation is not improving. So maybe there is something else we can try. And it was like that. It was like, Hey, let's open up this possibility that there could be something. Some skills out there you could learn, right? Some communication skills, some this, some that, that might benefit you. It might not be, a mental illness. It may just be something systemically going on and how you interact and communicate with each other, I think coming at people from where they're at, And not making them feel bad about where they are. And just saying, Hey, let's open up some psychological space. Let's open up some possibility. So could it be this, right? Could this be helpful? Maybe let's try something, And I think that more tentative approach, had tended to be, helpful. and I would also bring up to them that look at the end of the day, the prophet ﷺ encouraged shu'rah. we believe in consultation. We believe in hearing from other voices, right? The prophet, when he knew he wasn't an expert at something, he'd tell you, the, I think the garden situation, When you said to do this and the guy did it and it didn't grow as well. It was like, I'm not, I'm not a gardener, I'm not the expert. So it's It's low, right? Like the humility, the prophet ﷺ just to say, yeah, that's not my expertise. leaders these days wish they could say it, Wish they could say, I don't know, but I think that's the thing, wanting to understand that this is not apart from our tradition. This is part of our tradition. Even when. In the Qur'an, the steps it gives you, assigning a person from the woman's side, assigning a person from the man's side, this, all these different things that we're prescribed to do, that means there are steps to be taken. There is help to get had, right? Like you're supposed to go get help. This isn't a deal and deal, and, spiritually bypass, right? Which kind of means you pray in a way where you take no action. You do nothing. You just praying, right? You can't spiritually bypass your issues. They are there. And Allah gave us ways and tools and people in our paths to potentially better that.

are there any specific issues that you deal with as a Muslim woman that maybe male colleagues don't have to deal with?

Yeah. I do think that there's just the simple idea of there are men that will come in and again, this is where I think Bayan for me felt good because it gave me a little extra boost of confidence in what I'm saying, And I can back it up a lot clearer just by being more Islamically literate in certain things. There's a lot of men that will buck up against, If I'm trying to explain something, a lot of them will bring in fiqh and bring in, the prophet ﷺ said this, he also said this. What do you think that means? Tell me the context of when he said what you said. Tell me the story around it. what did the woman come up to him and ask him for him to give that response, right? Or what did the man come up to him and ask him to do it? And I think feeling a little more comfortable to challenge, because I think men, often in our community, I feel that they get very uncomfortable when a woman is like, being a little directive or being a little instructive, sometimes for some men. That would be uncomfortable for them and they would be very quick to want to dismiss it or challenge it. and I felt that I needed more to be able to back myself up and, feel comfortable kind of in my chair. this is my seat. let me take it, and, be able to share some, something that. maybe, again, maybe there's another possibility, right? Again, it wasn't out to just challenge, that doesn't always work, right? It's hey, you know what else there was? There was this. Hey, you know what else there was? There was this. How do you explain that? What do you think that meant? and trying to get them to draw their own conclusion of, maybe that's something too.

It almost sounds like a, help me help you a thing.

It literally was a help me help you all the time. It was a help me help you all the time.

So in your 18 years of marriage and family therapy, have your clients been or are they now exclusively Muslim?

Yes. Yes. So I would say probably for the last 15 to 16 years has been exclusively Muslim. that first couple of years, the, private practice I was in, it was a group private practice. We had mandated clients, so they would be like the child protective services clients and some other folks that kind of had to get therapy. and that was very interesting experience. It's very interesting. and honestly, it's really for me. And the trajectory ended up taking was really great experience because those were people who didn't want to be there. And oftentimes in couples counseling, it's one that calls and the other gets dragged in. And it wasn't always the man by the way, that was the one getting dragged in it. And times it was in the reverse, it was a man calling you know, wife getting dragged in. it happened, Getting, understanding what to do with people who don't wanna be there, and trying to still make the best space, use of that time was a valuable skill that I was able to pick up with some of these early clients. but since then, yeah, honestly, I think once the word was out that there is a Muslim available, to do therapy with, a lot of folks felt more comfortable coming in and talking to somebody. there were Muslims that had come in very early on. That were talking to me about being surveilled post 9 11, right? We're still talking in the mid 2000s, right? So mid to late 2000s. So things were still happening to Muslims that's a very hard thing to explain to a non Muslim. They're going to say you're paranoid. They're going to say, you've got paranoia, right? it's no, there's some factual stuff happening here, and there are, this does happen. People were getting, things were happening to people that were, not good. And so I think having somebody to even understand that part of it early on was really helpful. And then just as time has passed, again, having somebody who understands our cultural context and like things like, family involvement, right? we're a community. We're a collective, right? we operate in the collective. We're not silos. We don't operate as individualistic people, as a faith community, even amongst many of our, cultural and ethnic communities, right? We're community based. So when you go to some therapists who don't understand that, they're like, cut them off. And it's first of all, Islamically, we don't really cut off. That's not really, we don't like to do that. and things like that, I think Alhamdulillah has been beneficial to have somebody that says, okay, what do we do with this? This is a problem. We're acknowledging that, but we got to work with it.

How do you deal with varying levels of religiosity? everybody's not at the same level of faith, of trust, of practice. How do you respond to that?

that's a great question. and I think this is where I do land on my sort of thing. Secular learning, Where it's at the end of the day, I am, you are coming to me because you have something that you're trying to work through. and to literally feel better, you feel bad and you're just trying to feel better. And so I try to remind myself that look, I'm not, I bring, I talk about a lot in the room as much as a lot is brought into the room, and so if that is important to you, if a faith lens is important to you, if the perspective is important to you, I'm happy to go there. I will not avoid it. I'm happy to go there. However, it's not where I start because I don't know if that's where you are. I do feel like over the years I have found myself getting more comfortable, allowing, spirituality to come into the room, even when not necessarily brought in, only as a means of potentially benefiting the client in some capacity, right? There, there's, a lot of research that shows when you add a faith based, perspective to therapy, it actually is a, is an incredibly, accelerating concept. It actually does well for outcomes. Because our faith and our spiritual, it's those, studies you read in modern medicine, where they say, if somebody has a faith tradition that they hang on to through a disease, they tend to get better because they have more hope. They're more hopeful, right? They have something to hang on to, to anchor them, that grounds them. So in that same context, I feel like I've become more comfortable with people who, are Muslim and they identify that way. It's not that they don't necessarily, but they are pretty far from it. I'm becoming a little bit more comfortable if there's a moment where it makes sense, I may bring it back in just to say, Hey, I wonder when's the last time you talked to him? have you talked to him? You're really struggling, maybe just have a conversation, right? it's not about prayer. It's not about anything. just talk to him. Acknowledge him. Go complain to him. like you, you're hurting, you're upset. Ask him about it. Go ask him about it. and Ask him for solutions. So it's in a, in whatever capacity that makes sense in the moment. So it's not always there, I will tell you, there are issues that get very difficult where it's if I know a client is doing something they, I say shouldn't to be doing it's not my place to, to call that out. But I think it's interesting because they call themselves out. I don't really have to, they know. So there's this. So the way we even talk is there's this understood, I'm engaging in things I'm not supposed to. It's just understood. So that's the nice part, I think. And, so I don't really have to do much with that. It's just more of a, how is it affecting their life? Typically they're coming because it's affecting their life negatively in some way. So then I address that part of it, And get them to walk back to. Oh, look, what's, Oh, look, what's causing this distress here. And hopefully walk them back to that place is what we try to do.

Is it easier to bring God consciousness into therapy with the Muslim client than with a non Muslim client?

It's interesting. I've seen, I do still see non Muslim clients. It's not that I won't see them, right? It's just where my time gets filled up, right? but I will see non Muslim clients and it's interesting because It's almost as if I make it okay for them to draw on their faith tradition, you know Whereas maybe other therapists make it uncomfortable for them I think they just understand that like whether it be because I'm visibly Muslim or I'm not sure where they get the idea from, because I try not to bring it in the room if I know that's, especially if we don't share faith traditions, right? unless they bring it in the room, then I'm happy to, but it's, I feel like they do often feel very comfortable bringing God into the room, and that's how we speak about it. We just speak about God, And I think they, they appreciate that, but there's a space for them as well, where you can have these mental health issues or have these family issues and still feel like I can draw from my faith.

Sr. Sadia, you might be familiar with the words of Marianne Williamson. she wrote as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same as we are liberated from our own fear. Our presence automatically liberates others. Listening to you. It is clear that you have embodied this through your presence. You have created space for your clients, both Muslims and non Muslims to bring God into their therapy sessions in a way that they might not have otherwise. I just want to thank you for, for articulating that so beautifully.

No, I think it's nice though, if I'm able to give people that permission. I think that's a, what an honor, what a privilege, right? To be able to feel that someone doesn't have to hide their faith in God. Like why would we ever want anyone to hide that or feel like they can't express that in some way or especially express the importance of it. that's even more, important. So I'm really thankful for that.

Now I've served as an Imam for most of my daughter's life. So they're used to seeing me in that role. Of course, there are times when I imagine they feel like they're getting a Khutbah, but when I was studying Islamic chaplaincy, I found myself trying to apply those techniques. Active listening, letting them identify the problem and solution. Do you find yourself bringing your therapist slash counselor hijab with you home when you're dealing with your children?

Yeah, yes and no, and I will be really transparent here. Oh, it's like you can know all the things. And then you become a parent, right? It's like everything you know to be Right? And everything you can do out here in the world, I don't understand what happens when I am tested in the home. It's like a, it's such a disconnect. my, it's, it's a little rough when your kids will look back at you and say, aren't you a therapist? Like, why would you say that? Oh, okay. But I will say that those are just my, not. Not shining moments, right? Those are my, my, regrettable moments, but

we all have them.

we do. but I will say, Alhamdulillah, as an overall trajectory, absolutely. I am so grateful that I've had the experiences that I've had seeing just what's out there and Having to sit with discomfort in the way that I've had to write, teenagers doing things, doing just some things, and just being exposed to it and sitting with it and having to work with it. It's, it helps that whenever you struggle or your own child has challenges or, is trying to dabble in something you're uncomfortable with or whatever, like you, you don't freak out. There's no real, I think. My parents generation, Ooh, cause they were, my parents were immigrants and I think, them not being aware of what public high schools and whatnot may bring, that was hard for them. They hear something and it would be like zero to 10, zero, a hundred, right? Like it was just like, it was, and I don't think I operate like that. And Alhamdulillah for that. I think I'm much more understanding. I'm more. I'm willing to work with it. more just okay, let's, all right, you made the mistake. let's now what? So I do understand there's this repair that has to happen. There's this, have you asked Allah for forgiveness first? don't fear me, look at what look at what you did and who you transgressed. You didn't just transgress me. There's a higher order here. And just helping them see that I think has been really like a big blessing because as your kids are two kids in college, as you have. Kids that move away. I'm not there. They don't have to fear me. I don't know what's going on, right? But I wanted to instill in them this idea that there is always someone watching, and I think just having that perspective and being able to have not freaked out up front Allowed them to stay really open with me. So they do sometimes come to me when they're really struggling and even when it's Very uncomfortable for me, and I'm like, Oh, okay. I don't know what I'm supposed to do with this. I'm freaking out internally, but it's on the outside, I'm able to turn something back on and go with it.

You know what I hear? I hear a deep sense of mercy in the way you engage your children, especially in how you center their relationship with the law, rather than just your authority, which is generally what parents do. All right, we're the boss. Listen to us with children ranging from college age to toddlers, you've navigated, or you're navigating multiple stages of parenting simultaneously. What advice would you give to other parents who may also be managing similar dynamics or just beginning their parenting journey?

Oh, that's a tough one. So just to give a little context, about, I guess it's been about, five and a half or so years, I got remarried. And so then I had three more children. by the way, during my program at Bayon, which is why I was on the super long term track. but Alhamdulillah, I just think back and I'm like, man, Allah really wanted me to finish this degree. Like every single thing that could have happened in the middle of that degree happened in the middle of that degree. And it's just I'm it's just this constant source of, gratitude towards Allah that he actually facilitated a way for me to finish it. Cause he knew it was just something I wanted so badly. And, I hope inshallah I can use, and maybe we'll talk about it. But what I did for my thesis, cause I feel like. That's where Allah let me stay long enough to do something that I really wanted to do, But back to your question. this is tough, right? Because I, it's an interesting space for me to be in because I have these older kids, so I've seen what I wish I did differently, what I think I did okay, what I think maybe I even did well, alhamdulillah, I see all of that. So I'm trying to think like, how can I do my best here, And I think toddlers are tough because they do their whole like, no. And they're in there they know what's right and wrong. And they try to just test you and be like, Oh, no, I'm telling you to do this. And they're just, doing it anyway and all that. So I think that's been interesting of back to the, you said something and I was like, man, it's final. I gotta hear that. Say you sounded really merciful. I'm like, I wonder if I could be called that sometimes with these little ones where. they are just testing you to no end and you're like, okay, you need to go on time out, just really trying to be what I will say i'm working on alhamdulillah ramadan always helps being more mindful of yourself is What's triggering me in this moment? Is it the defiance that they're giving me? And why is that upsetting me so much? Why is my ego so bothered right now? They're a little kid. They don't actually know anything, And they're just a little kid who wants the candy in front of them, it's this very humanistic response to what's happening, and I'm getting so angry about it, right? I think Pausing. I think I will tell you one thing in parenting is pause. SubhanAllah. It's like when the prophet sallallahu when angry be silent. Oh, subhanAllah. SubhanAllah. The world would be a different place if we follow just that. When angry be silent. Think about your spouse relationship. Think about your parents, your siblings, your children, your everybody, right? Everybody would be different if we were just quiet when we're angry. So I think When I get triggered, I try to pause. I take that pause to be like, how am I going to respond right now? Because how I respond is going to be a reflection of how that kid feels about themself. What I say to them right now, right? And I've caught myself. I hear it, right? That's the problem with being a therapist. You say it and you're like, Oh, that was the wrong, you heard it out loud. And you're like, Oh, I'm damaging my kids. there's times where you'll. you're just at level 100, right? And you're like, what's wrong with you? Oh, not the thing to say the minute it's come out of my mouth. I'm like, Oh, come on. A little, why would I say that? because that's what, that's my ego got bothered. And then I now put that into this kid's mind that something is wrong, because they had a human response to something, a human reaction to something. And subhan'Allah those are moments that I've really tried to catch myself, right? And that's that becomes that initial, reaction. So I'm trying to pause. And if I take that pause, my next statement typically is a lot more like smoother, thoughtful, not as coming at them, making them feel bad about themselves, right? it's more of a thoughtful, Hey, But if I'm saying something, why would you not want to do that? Do you want to make me sad? and when you say that, that makes mama sad, right? trying to help them understand empathy. when your actions have reactions to others, they have consequences on others, And understanding that you have to feel for how the other person is feeling. So there's a lot of lessons that I think you instill at this age, and then they really do follow. They really, truly follow them as they go along.

Thank you for that. You mentioned your thesis. Let's talk about that.

the, my thesis was on, so In my, life situation, my husband did not have any children. So when we got married, he inherited my older four. he became a stepfather to my older four, and then we had three children. And so I've got the half sibling situation, he's a step parent. and I, had stumbled across an article many years ago and I just was like, what, and it was basically as about the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam having 12 stepchildren. Okay, and this is a part of the seerah that is just, I don't feel highlighted very often, right? And I don't know if people even know that he had 12 stepchildren, right? And what was that relationship like? What, how, what kind of stepfather was he? Because to me, when you become a step parent as a Muslim, it's still not as common maybe as it is in not the non Muslim community, right? Like the divorce, statistics are like the one in two and grander America. And for Muslims, it's more like one in three, right? we're unfortunately creeping, right? But. It's, it is what it is. and it's the blended families thing isn't as common yet. It's there. It's definitely much more prevalent. but I felt like there was no. Islamic framework around it. There was no prophetic guidance around how to be a step parent or how to blend a family. And, and honestly, I feel like it's a forgotten sunnah, right? The prophet used to embrace the children that came with the marriages that he had, right? Some of the marriages it's interesting because you see, you hear less about. This, the children, like Prasada's children, like they must have been a little older maybe, or they must have stayed with their father. Like you hear very little, there's very little data that I was able to come across on them. And then there's some of his stepchildren who you hear a lot about. So for example, Khadija's son, Hind Abu Hara is the one whose narration the Shama'il is based on. Okay. And when you think about that, so the Prophet stepson is the one who gave us this chunk of traits about him, subhanAllah, this beautiful, incredible chunk of traits of physical, right? How he interacted. So what must he, what kind of stepfather was he for his stepson to come up with this description of him, this incredibly beautiful description of him. So these are the kind of inferences I was making, because again, it's interesting. I was, I talked to different. Scholars along the way, Dr. Jonathan Brown, like different people through Bayan and through different avenues where I was like, tell me where can I find more sources on this? And they said, it could be that this is not highlighted specifically because this was very common. People married and remarried, sorry, divorced and remarried. And it was just a, it was like, It happened, right? So it wasn't, a unique circumstance that needed to be highlighted. Maybe this is just an idea, right? That maybe this is why it's not so specific or some specific, area of study because it was just more commonplace simply. and now we look at it as some sort of unique circumstance or different circumstance. and so I wanted to really Highlight, what was the prophetic approach? So not just the prophet's ﷺ approach, but the early Muslims as well, right? from Abu Bakr to Ali to Jafr, like they all, many of them had step kids and you learn a lot about how they interacted with. And so I tried developing a healthy Muslim framework for blended families based on. secular principles, right? What we're taught now about how step families should operate and blending what I saw within the prophetic approach as well. So it was something near and dear to my heart. Cause it was, came from a kind of a personal interest. but I also felt like this is an interesting thing to contribute to the literature on SETA is that I don't know if people talk about this very much.

Interesting. No, I don't think that's a worthy descriptor. no, not at all. That's fascinating. I've never actually considered that part of rasulullah ﷺ of his life.

And honestly, it only makes you love him more.

Absolutely.

It's like Hanah. If you needed any more reasons to to love our olah, it is. Look at how he parented. Look at how he parented. Look how he step parented. My goodness. subhan'Allah Just, absolutely, truly the best of,

absolutely,

truly the best of

now. Is that available? Is that available publicly?

So what I'm trying to do, and Allah, make it easy on me, and facilitate this for me, I'm trying to turn it into a book for the general public, because even as I, defended my thesis for one of our non Muslim professors, she was like, are you going to turn this into something? She was like, I have never heard of any of this. I don't even, she's this is good stuff. she's you've got it. Probably people probably want to know about this. So even, I feel like even that gave me a little bit of a, wow, okay. Maybe this is something I need to do, so inshallah. I have, the plan is to make it into a book just for the general public to really try to, especially if you're in that circumstance or if you just want to know another part of the prophet and love him even more, it's a way to learn this side and try to have some Islamic guidance when you're entering into these types of marriages.

Alright, I'll go ahead and say it. This is groundbreaking research. I think this has the potential to significantly impact the family dynamics of blended families, both Muslim and non-Muslim. May a law facilitate your efforts and turning this into a book because I truly believe this is gonna have immense value. Now, shifting gears a bit, tell us about Muslim bliss.

Yeah. as you. Can tell from just hearing about my life a little bit. I don't have a lot of time free time Is an interesting thing in my life under the Working and you know raising children and just Yeah. Life, aging parents, a lot of mercy on them, continue to preserve them, just all that, right? Like just all the things. So I think, Muslim bliss is this thing that I've tried to cultivate over the years where it's just an umbrella, social media, place where I put things out. Something will come to mind, something will, come across and I'm like, Oh, you know what? I need to talk about this. So I think. Recently, I had done a, a few tick tocks where it was a relationship goals, but like the sunnah edition and how the prophet ﷺ would cultivate. Romance or affection, you know amongst his wives and, so I try to highlight something that maybe isn't already there. So it could sometimes be within the marital relationship. It could sometimes be amongst parenting. it's just any relationship. I would say it's usually around relationships, and how to better them. And so it's on Facebook, it's on Instagram, it's on TikTok. And I do, in the past I've done different workshops. So I used to do a, Muslim women's divorce recovery group,

oh wow

trying to help people navigate that timeframe in life. It can often be very difficult and, to truly be able to understand it, it's okay. And there is life beyond that, and, understanding kind of a list trajectory in those moments. Cause that's really hard, so trying to stay spiritually grounded through that difficulty and through that hardship, I've done just different, I did anger management groups. I've done just different types of. topics and thoughts and I try to keep it all under the sun umbrella. So really it's just my catchall for all my side hustle on the side gigs, on my side gigs, but yeah, that's it's just a way to increase psychoeducation, but unfortunately you'll see some things are dated because it takes me a little bit of time to stay on top of it and Keep it going. But again, inshallah. I

mean, you had a post where you were talking about self taught negative self talk, right? Reminding followers, to recognize their own self worth, right? that's something that's a part of our creation, right? That a lot gave us that.

Yes.

What led you to highlight that particular thought?

Yeah, so it was, I did a series, And it was on, self love, And we hear this a lot these days and, like loving yourself. And I think if you only stay in the secular there, you miss something, and I wanted to add that this doesn't come from some weird ego self serving place, This is from Al Wadood. This is from our most affectionate God. This is from our most loving Lord. that He felt it worthy of us to exist. He wanted one of us to exist. He can do anything, right? But He chose to make one of us. So if you chose to make one of us, you must matter, you must mean something, right? You must have some purpose here. And so love yourself because Allah does, right? Love yourself because Allah deemed you worthy to create. He could have created anyone. He can replace us at any time, right? But yet he still chooses to keep you here. each day he gives you, he let you be here another day. So it's this, make it worth it. Make it worth it. he thought you were worth it. You should feel you're worth it. So it's this, not, self serving like just from and of yourself, right? I think that's too little nafsy, like it's a little too selfish and selfish, self centered, It's no, draw that self love from your most loving. And the thing is, when you have, when you understand that Allah gave you dignity, Simply by your existence, right? And subhanallah, when you read in the Quran, the way he talks about Adam alayhi salam, and the way he talks to him about, to the angels and to shaytan, truly there is a dignity he gives us. It's true. It's just right there. He just gives it to us, right? And I think you start to operate in the world from a more secure place. as opposed to an insecure und, undignified place. When you start to, move in the world from a place that you, are worthy uhah, you operate very differently. You operate very differently. You don't hear all the noise all the time. You filter a lot of noise out and you understand, you know your worth and that no one can take that worth from you. You don't allow it. because the law gave you that word, nobody can take it. So even just in your relationships and in just day to day, how you operate the spaces you walk in, you'll be different because Allah gave you that.

absolutely. Absolutely. Your points bring me back to the importance of perception, not just seeing ourselves, but seeing ourselves as a law sees us. It's interesting that people into therapy focused on personal growth. I would say rarely, if ever, thinking about how it might improve the lives of those around them. And that is a hundred percent fine. Self care is necessary. Just as the saying goes, charity starts at home and spreads abroad. The way we see ourselves, it inevitably impacts every space that we're in.

Every space, insecurity. Is a beast. And when you operate from an insecure place, the way you treat others, right? You project that on them. You may not give them their, their level of, their rights, right? you may let them trample on your rights. there's so many things that can happen when you operate from a place of insecurity. And again, we only have to look at the Prophet Muhammad Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam to look at the most secure man on earth. He had these people, his own family, turning on him in the worst of ways. The man soldiered on. He was like, nope, know what I'm doing. I know what I'm doing, right? I got Allah with me, so I know what I'm doing. And it's the same thing that I want us to draw from. I've got Allah with me, I know what I'm doing. I'm okay. I've got Allah with me, I'm okay.

And to that point, thinking about Rasulullah salallahu alayhi wa sallam, He was able to move on, but he still had to contend with those emotions. He was certainly sad about the rejection he received. These things affected him in his heart. He was frustrated by the unwillingness of his people to listen to him. People who, prior to his prophethood, would have readily accepted anything he said as true. But as you said, the resilience, and I think that's one of the things that really stands out for me. It's something I feel as I get older, I identify more with the importance of resilience. And I feel like that's something that's really missing in today's society.

I think to go back full circle to what I was mentioning earlier, that pendulum swing, right? So we as a society, kids are to be seen and not heard. nobody has, you don't validate anybody, nobody, nobody's feelings matter and nothing to, we've swung the words like, my feelings are facts. Feelings are facts. Yeah, feelings are facts. feelings are how you feel right. And to your point of course the prophet ﷺ was human and he had emotions, Of course he, I said, he soldiered on. Yeah painfully, very, hurt. very deeply hurt. but he did.

That's right.

That's the resilience you're speaking about. And so I was even thinking, when you talked about that. and I believe, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it was during the conquest of Mecca, during, Fatah al Mecca when he saw certain people who had killed his own relatives. And he said, look, I forgive you, but could you just not get in my, get away from me, like basically don't hang around me because, we're like, you are a struggle for me. And it's there's a healthy level of. boundary setting, I don't know the better word, Of, it's I can acknowledge I got it, but I don't need to be all up in your space. I don't need to harm myself. And trigger myself over and over again by the pain you've caused me. I can also say, I forgive you, but I don't need that. SubhanAllah, like this idea of resilience, I think is huge because that swing that we came to feelings are facts and I just have to live in my feelings. You don't have to live in your feelings and actually it's going to be a very hard way to live. If the prophets of Islam only thought about his emotions, only thought about the pain inflicted by his family, how could he have gone on? He would've crumbled, right? He had to find some strength. He had to find some grit in him, something that Allah gave him, something that he could hang on to, to say, and what did he do? He found a few people that supported him. So he gave us a prescription, find good sohbah, find good companions, find good people around you who will get you to that next space, right? Who don't only just validate you, but also push you. They like want you to keep going. They help you to keep going. it's another thing that happens sometimes is that we will find ourselves in spaces of people who will just, cheer our feelings on and it's Oh, that's good in a sense of being validated. That's very important. You are allowed to have the feelings. I'm not telling you your feelings are wrong. I'm just telling you that doesn't have to be the only way you operate in the world based on those feelings. That's where I think. There's something we got to play with here. your feelings are valid. You're allowed to have them. They are not wrong. However, that is not the only thing in the world. And we've got to be able to build resilience in people to, handle dunya, right? We're still in the world. We're still not in paradise. And, we will be tested. Allah told us we will be tested, right? If you're a believer, we are told we will be tested. So we shouldn't hang on in those. Hardship moments to think that, this allows me to somehow just be, give up all the time, or live in those feelings and not push for more for ourselves. I think that's a hugely important point. I'm really glad you mentioned it.

Alhamdulillah, I almost don't want to ask this question because I felt like that was such a great wrap up. But I must, so we've touched on, we've touched on resilience as a broad issue with real social impact. And if you had to rank it, would you say resilience is the number one challenge facing the Muslim communities, mental health. And we talked about how our perception, how we carry that with us into every space. It has impact everywhere. And I know that this is a big ask speaking for a whole lot of folks, but even anecdotally. Would you say it tops the list, or are there other issues you see that are just as pressing?

Yeah, so that's a, like you said, it's a tough question. and what I will say, it is one of the, for sure. I don't know if I would say it is the. The one issue, but I will say it is absolutely one of incredible importance. One of the top things because I feel like when you have that, then you can employ the tools to get better. Then when you have this. It's whatever this is that resilience that, that I'm gonna push through these this moment and this is difficulty and I'm gonna, persevere, right? I'm gonna show how my, my perseverance through this. I think when you have that, you can do the other parts of therapy that are given to you. These tools, these strategies, these all the things, to fight, different mental health struggles. I do think, I think my lens is always a little different because. I typically operate in the relational space, right? I'm usually dealing with couples and parenting and, that, that space of, relationships. So when you said, what's the issue I feel like within relationships, sure. Resilience is a huge piece of it. so yes, that is still true. However, there's just so many other issues. There are so many other issues in the relational space. we have a lot of, our, trust is a really big issue. Trust is such a big issue, when the world we're living in right now is very easy to be tricky. It's very easy to slip up. It's very easy to, take a step right outside of your marriage, maybe not a whole, like a whole full fledged something, dabbling in these spaces that you know are not appropriate and without the bounds of the marriage. or, I think, That's a struggle, be it relationships you have online, co workers, this, that, different spaces, I think that's very tricky, be it pornography, it's another area that's outside of the bounds of marriage, there are Real issues there that are so incredibly difficult, and are really plaguing our marriages. They are plaguing our marriages. And, lots of, again, infidelity or the secret marriages that come out too. those first marriages, And so I'm not getting into the thick of it. That's not even the point I'm telling you how it's impacting the first. You

no, no, I'm with you.

how it's impacting the children, how it's impacting, right? so again, my more broader lens tends to be in that relational space, but you know what? Resilience fits there too, because as a couple, even when you go through some of those issues, there is still a path if you want. If you want that path, and both people are working towards that path, there is a way, right? But it takes a whole lot of resilience, and trust, back to that trust issue. SubhanAllah, Muslims used to be known, like our word was our word. That's not a thing anymore. And it's really sad. It's really sad.

Yeah. You're absolutely right. I would hear it. I actually growing up, Muslim world is his bond or her bond.

Yep.

and

I don't know if that's the case anymore. Allah forgive us.

insha'Allah, we can collectively exert and exemplify the type of resilience where that becomes a true representation of who we are.

Yes. Yes. Let's get back to the days where, yes, a Muslim's word is their word and that's truth. let's get back to those days. Inshallah.

Inshallah. All right, family, before we wrap up, I want to give a big thank you to sister Sadia for taking the time to share her insights and a bit of her journey with us today. Thank you again. You can find her on social media at Muslim Bliss. That's Muslim Bliss. I'm also making dua for her and I ask you to join me. May Allah bless her intention to turn her thesis into a book sooner rather than later, inshallah. And to our listening family, I want to invite you to support the important work of Bayan Islamic Graduate School. Over 70 percent of our students are scholarship recipients, and you can help by donating to the Muhammad Ali Scholarship at our website. Bayan online.org. That's bayan online.org. I also encourage you as always, to join our community of learners today by subscribing to Bayan on Demand. We are constantly adding more content. Right now, there are 30 classes taught by some of the best and brightest scholars in the nation, all for just $10 a month. So get yourself a subscription, get one for your family, or even. That one person you've been at odds with because useful knowledge produces peace. That's right. I said it useful knowledge produces peace. Who knows you might make a new friend. And finally, don't forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. It helps us grow and reach more people. Inshallah. We'll see you next week. I'm your host, Imam Tariq El Amin and I leave you as I greeted you. Assalamualaikum. May the peace that only God can give be upon you.