Alex W 0:00

So Alex, this is another Alex I've just met outside he wants to meet you can have a quick chat with you and he literally just took me plunked me on his knee whilst the RDS kind of roast lunch in front of him and started to chat away.

Alex Melia 0:15

Welcome to stories of men beneath the surface. I'm Alex Amelia. Join me as we discover what it means to be a man in the modern era.

At the school I went to high school Fletcher and Albertson revising was seen as a bad thing. You were considered a SWAT or a geek if you try too hard in class, but what was the impact of that mentality? Today I'm speaking to an old school friend to find out.

Alex W 0:50

For all intents and purposes, I was probably a little little scalli job I can say it's my tracks you tracksuits on sheet nine catheter trainers.

Alex Melia 0:59

That was Alex eight years old. He grew up in the same town as me. Other 10 in Greater Manchester. Unlike me, he was obsessed with football, Manchester United to be specific. This was the mid 90s. We're talking the era of heroes like Eric Cantona and Roy Keane, all under the watchful eye of legendary manager, Alex Ferguson.

Alex W 1:20

My life was not seen then we didn't have a cable or anything like that. So I used to just stay up and listen to every match on the radio.

Alex Melia 1:28

One night in the summer of 1996, rumors were flying around that Alex Ferguson was going to be in the local community hall. Little Alex was skeptical, but he convinced his dad to take him down to the hole to check it out. Anyway.

Alex W 1:44

When we arrived, I remember it was kind of dusk, then I remember, just keep looking over looking over at the doors, you're seeing if anything was going on. And you could see that the lights were on. So there was something going on, and then all of a sudden, door flung open. And this guy comes out. And I recognized him straightaway. And this guy, a guy called Elton welsby. He was the guy that that was the presenter on Grenada, sports on ITV. When you'd be having your tea and watching the news, he would present the local scores and updates and anything spotty, really. He was having a cigarette outside, remember, wandering over and saying, Is Alex Ferguson inside? And he kind of smirked at me and said, Yes. Would you like to see it? And I was just like, yeah. So he said, right, give me a second. And then you can come in with me. So then Elton took me in. And I just remember walking in and there was tables and tables full of blokes talking into the dinner. And right in the middle of bang in the middle was Alex Ferguson. And I remember walking through the room, and everyone was like, looking as if to say what the hell's going on there. Elton Wellesley took me all the way up to him, said, Sir Alex, this is another Alex, I've just met outside, he wants to meet you coming, have a quick chat with you. And he literally just took me plunked me on his knee, while the RDS kind of roast lunch in front of them, and started to chat away. So he went straight into asking me like, did like football, obviously, and who my favorite players were. And I remember saying, Gary's my favorite player. And he kind of laughed at that and said, Well, Gary has worked hard, you know, and is here where he is today because of how much effort he's put in and how much patience is added, and always add a few knocks, but he's practiced and practiced, and then embraced him. So what what is it you want to do when you're older, and I said, I want to be a footballer, that's all I want to do. And he kind of said, well, to be a footballer, you've got to be lucky. You've got to have the talent, you've got to practice you've got to work hard. But even then, there's only a very small chance that you might ever become a footballer. But all that aside, all of those that have worked that practice, that trying your best in everything you do, no matter what your talent is, that's what you need to do. You find your own talent, you find what what it is, you've got out, and you invest all of that effort in. And that's where you'll get to where you want to be

Alex Melia 4:22

How did that influence how you approach things at school?

Alex W 4:26

So then after that, I basically took on board what Alex Ferguson said, but it was still very, very football focused at that stage and don't get me wrong I tried and tried but over the next couple of years I realized that that's probably not where I'm going to make my riches by any means. So it was then well what what am I good at? And the primary school lead in into secondary school was probably first point I realized, actually quite clever night sights and cheese it makes me feel bit sick saying that but I actually started realizing I was quite clever and probably one of the cleverest in the class, that theme was the same when I kind of arrived at high school. But it wasn't cool, or welcomed or celebrated to be one of the smart ones. So you had to play quite carefully. still loved football still loved, boisterous things. But I knew that probably my talent was in the academics really. And it was like, right, well, that's where my talent is, and I need to work hard, I need to practice I need to put the effort in. But navigating that in a, in a school where it was probably run like a dictatorship particular amongst the kids. It's quite violent bullying at points. And, and I think grep thankfully, I wasn't at the end of it. But I remember kids who just spiked to the railroad for one day, because they didn't have a completely shaven head or sharp back and sides would be kind of targeted in the playground. So you try and harness been kind of intelligent and academic in that kind of environment, where all that nonsense is going on day in day out. It was quite, quite difficult, I'd say. So I had to do it. But I had to at the same time, kind of disguise it from my peers, my pals. I also did a lot of messing about at school in the classes where I was probably less, less infused a bit bored. And that helped to disguise actually what I was how hard I was trying in the background as well. I remember coming up to then year 10, year 11, some 1415, then your GCSEs are coming up, which are your big exams you take at the end of your, your kind of compulsory years of education in the UK. And I had to just like map out right, I've got two months now until exams, eight weeks, I need to get my head down and learn some of this stuff. put the effort in and make sure I smash these exams. So I can go on to college, hopefully gone to university still didn't have a clue what I wanted to do at that point in time. But just to do something, just to make make make something out of it my academics. And I just remember then kind of almost clear in the play. I'd still go playing football, I still go knocking around with my mates. But I remember the lads would come and just they'd hear that I was inside revising. And I remember I'm smirking now. But I remember stones being thrown at the bedroom window and people shouting, revise, revise, revising. And then they'd leave me alone for a bit and I feel like right, Frank, God, they've disappeared. And and I remember it again, you'd wait another hour. And then stones would ping got the big knocks on the door of the house was set up that people could just wander in the back and wet themselves in the house, my mum and dad weren't really bothered by things like that. And you just hear the same people just try in the best to get me out into to doing whatever daft things they were up to. But I managed to just kind of keep my head down, still play the game and keep it in the background still, obviously enjoy myself and my friends because that's important. But then do kind of well in my exams really well went on to to sixth form University, law school, training contracts, and the careers kind of progressed since then. So then fast track 15 years or so from then. And I've worked my ass off really and that's that's culminated in becoming a partner at a law firm in the UK. But it's those kind of words from strikes verbs, and they kind of it doesn't matter what it is, you got to put the effort in, practice, work hard, be self disciplined, get it what it is that you, you need to no one's gonna really help you get that you can have support networks in place, but unless you adopt all of those traits, you're not going to go very far in whatever it is that you do.

Alex Melia 9:18

How do you think your life would have been different as a man if you've not met Alex Ferguson that day in 1996

Alex W 9:26

I think I would have probably adopted a narrower view of of what it is to be successful and how I was going to generate that success. I was that convinced in my head as an eight year old boy sadly no, that was going to be a football remember, the only thing I was worried about at certain points was whether the ball was going to be too hard to head and score goals with an I felt like that because I was tiny as a kid I was absolutely tiny. And I think even adopted that mindset that right if football falls away A, there's nothing left than another probably best in my life or a series of kind of let downs and failures. Rather than thinking to myself, what is it you got up? What is it you're good at, but you also enjoy outside of necessarily the thing you most enjoy. And that takes time, especially when it's a thing that isn't celebrated amongst your, your peer group. So being clever, was, was almost tragic. It's seen as being sad and tragic with, with certain groups, the main groups, I'd say, the kind of type types of skills I'm sure it's the same No, up and down the country. So it's kind of then harnessing that in the background while still being a little bit of a lot and monkeying about with your mates and playing football and doing some other things that you enjoy and more. But just keep in maintaining that focus on right. This is the start now if I focus and concentrate and work hard on academics, that's going to lead to something else. And you don't necessarily and I think it's fine, that different parts parts of your life, you don't necessarily know what that something else is. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. Because then over time, you start kind of harnessing that enthusiasm, that talent, that intelligence, and you get better and you get more kind of attuned to where you want to be and where you need to be. Well, I

think back to school days, so you and I went to high school, Fletcher High School in Arlington, which subsequently closed down probably about 10 years after we left. So we left in 2003. But I felt like when we're at school, you didn't want to stand out in any way. And the only way you could stand out was it through athletic endeavor, whether it was boxing, whether it was football, you didn't want to be a misfit you wanted to fit right in. And I think that was the difficulty for you. Because you don't want to stand out for your academic achievements, like you said, because it wasn't celebrated. And because people would instantly label you are you're a SWAT, you're a geek. And I think that is an issue wasn't just a ESCA Fletcher, it was all the schools in the area, or that working class schools as well.

That's absolutely kind of nail on the head. I was embarrassed more than anything. So if I got top grades on anything, and particularly as you got towards the end of school, and you started winning awards for certain subjects and things like that, it was It wasn't nice to win those awards. But it's like, well, that should surely be celebrated. And it's the mindset of, I'd say not only the, the kids, but some of the kind of teachers, it was almost not celebrated. I mean, there was there was a mixed bag, I remember at school of teachers that would kind of harness anyone with that kind of academic discipline. And there was teachers that if, as an ancillary to that discipline, people got bored easier, or were maybe a bit cheeky, are maybe a bit more challenging. Rather than kind of bringing in that arm, we'll just try and push it in a corner. And I remember there were certain teachers that would literally, as soon as I did anything I was I was going to setting set a next door with another teacher, listening to another class that was completely irrelevant to what I was doing because the teacher couldn't be bothered. There was like teachers I've had from being 11 years old to 1516 that I played up for. And it was literally to impress the lads impress the girls, probably almost like a smokescreen to distract that actually, in the background I'm doing, doing what I need to do. And at home. I'm doing the bloody homework and the teaching the history syllabus or English syllabus. I know insight, though, not because I've absorbed it in this lesson. Because I've took the basis from this lesson, and I've worked on it and flushed it out by myself in the background. But you've had been focusing more in the lesson I wouldn't have had to do do that self learning probably as well. And then on the same, same note, I probably wouldn't because if it wasn't me or a handful of other idiots doing it, it would have been another set of idiots disrupting the class and spoiling things. And, and it's I feel embarrassed really that I was like that because I was probably quite difficult as a student for the majority of teachers other than the ones who would probably look back on no one would say we're at the top of the game and talk the challenging kids in locked up their own unique personality. is an adaptive ways of actually harnessing talents in a way that didn't embarrass them amongst the peer group, or overly celebrate what they were good at, in a way that was going to kind of embarrass them. Make them look like a geek or Swat. So, but there were only a handful of that. And you probably think, Well, why is that? Because obviously schools at a certain level can't afford the best teachers. They've not got the budget for the best teachers, if you're a best teacher, why would you necessarily be messing about a school where all that nonsense is going on you? You wouldn't. But then there are different levels of behavior, although kind of my behavior could have been much, much better as a as a youngster. A lot of that would boredom. And I would hope and I would, I'm still confident that wasn't any nastiness to it. There wasn't any, it was more playing the class clown winding people up.

I remember, teacher called Mrs. Green, who said to me in year nine, Alex, you've got to you've got a talent for religious education, Ferrari, I think you should pursue that at college, and then then University. And I just remember thinking, there's no chance in hell I would ever do Ra, I just thought about the lack of approval, the piss taking, I suppose, from friends that actually going down that particular pursuit. So there are certain subjects as well, that you didn't necessarily want to choose because you thought that you'd have the pest taken out of you,

when you came to your options going into your GCSE you could choose I think it was free to our free subjects. And alongside sport, I was really passionate with my art, art work. And how has that been from being a kid, I was quite talented. But I remember taking the class. And there was probably five or six males out of 30 or so kids. And that was one way, especially when you had used to have your big kind of a, a four, a five, transparent kind of folder. So old, your artwork, you had no locker. So you had to carry you artwork around. And when you were in the yard, you'd have to prop up your artwork in a corner where it was going to get damaged. The abuse used to get when people would see that you've drawn all of these teapots and flowers and things like that was phenomenal. Phenomenal, like phenomenal abuse. And I loved that those classes, I absolutely loved them. And going back if I had hindsight, I would have maybe gone down more of that design artistic route, as a career path potentially. But I think the prejudice that we were kind of surrounded by, put me off that line. And sadly, it did it know it isn't a long run, it's not proven a bad thing, because I've managed to to, to build kind of a successful career path, thankfully. But it was certainly more of a kind of peer group pressures that put me off doing something I really enjoyed, sadly, is the mindset, I think that kind of needs to change where you talk about the wittiness, the social approval, if that could all be kind of infused into something more positive, as part of the education system, looking up to kind of peers that aren't necessarily solely built around bravado and money and materials, then it feels like that's where we need to change so that people can just appreciate people's talents in the right environment, looking up to the right people in a way where they can progress on contribute to society in a balanced way doing what they're interested in what they like what they're good at, without feeling like they have to do one certain thing or act in a certain way just to kind of fit in the people that are in the positions of influence. kind of apply in the right tips to the youngsters around what it means to be successful. In terms of working hard, the patient's been nice being decent people, the people that have impressed me when the way they brought kind of certain almost political issues into play, but to try and pave the way for better things like Paddy, the buddy, the UFC fighter, Thomas Aspinall, his UFC fighter local word from Arvidsson, you see hit some of his clips and it's all around, working hard respecting your opponent self discipline, those kinds of skills they resonate if you can apply those in whatever it is you're doing that. That's excellent. But then suddenly, it seems like the more powerful people are getting and especially the ones on the highest platform to improve people's mentality, to give them the right levels of discipline, to show them what's right and wrong. I have to say, I'll wait until I've seen it, the Ronaldo documentary, which is coming. But some of the behavior recently is the opposite of those things. And it's sad to see, it's sad to see from someone who is arguably the arguably the most influential footballer on the planet, to be essentially throwing his toys out of the pram, and then promote in how acceptable that is, days before a World Cup tournament, especially the man united front. And that's, that's sad, because Ronaldo in particular, going back a few years was all focused on those positive aspects. And now the platform is being used. We'll see, we'll see what the interviews like and like salaries, hold comment, but not in a fully positive way. Those people have worked hard, and they're in a position of power really to, to promote all this positivism and just this balanced way of thinking and reasonableness, what it means to work out what it means to be respectful. Yeah, from my point of view, that's what it feels like society. Society needs, really, just all of those things that ultimately can then

attending, etc. I when I was in my last year, this was to this was 2003. I was kind of having this. Do I want to be one of the one of the lads who just doesn't do much revision? Or do I want to really try hard in Excel and all the rumblings from from our group where I'm not studying, I'm not revising, but you're all in the top sets and I I smelt bullshit. I thought nah, they're definitely they're definitely at home, revising and studying. But I do remember, there was weakened elite college that was an option after school. And then there was Winston Lane Winston was, you know, top 10 in the country. It was a very high performing college and I just thought there's no way I'm going to get into that college. You know, you needed A's and B's and I was projected to get B's and C's, and I remember Paul Kenyon's mother Paula, who was one of the teachers at a teacher's school. She said, that's all bullshit. I absolutely know they're revising, just forget what they're saying and just focus on yourself. She kind of just confirmed it to me as like, yeah, I need to focus on myself at this point. So it was interesting, this whole keeping this stuff to yourself not wanting to seem like that you're you're a SWAT or a geek or whatever, which I think those kinds of labels are not helpful whatsoever. Did that definitely hinder people from actually working hard and striving to get good GCSE grades?

Yeah. And as sad as it is, and painted into this kind of narrative of doing all you can to disguise the fact that you're clever, sadly, that, that option of going to we're gonna leave college versus Winstanley where you need to have the top grades was seen as more of a kind of elitist college. I kicked and padded that I had to go to Winston at first. Whereas like I'm not going to incite it's just full of geeks by swats nerds, I don't want to go to that place, and are when and the group of friends that I met there, I'm still kind of best friends with now like, almost 20 years on the platform it gave me I mean, a few like, a year and half been there. They propel me to go into Oxbridge for interviews and things like that. And it's just like that helped me to kick on to then go into uni and actually thinking, right, what am I what am I good at? Or what do I like necessarily, and actually then choosing law at university and taking it on from there. But one point, I wasn't going to go because it was seen as like, too nerdy. And that is that looking back is ridiculous as a concept that is ridiculous. But that just kind of shows what it was like really.

Yeah. And I remember being almost angry for you. I remember you got three or four A's across the board. You applied for six universities, but you only got into one, which was Newcastle. And even, you know, the Home City, Manchester University of Manchester didn't accept you. You went to Cambridge, they didn't accept you went down for the interviews and all that. And there's kind of this cynical side of me that thinks it's because of the background that you from the working class background. And to kind of highlight it even further of your academic achievements. I remember when you I think your mom put it in the LEA report or something that you'd got you were awarded a first class honours degree for law at Newcastle University and you're one of only two or three people out of the whole degree who got that first. I suppose it just infuriated me to think But coming from the background that we come from, you're not acknowledged, you're not able to get into those higher, you know, those higher institutions,

you'd have to think that if you'd got multiple a stars A's throughout, that you'd be prime candidate for these universities and to not get any but one. I mean, it feels like it's not a coincidence, you might be wrong. And from all accounts, when I read the press, certainly in the the university system has changed, its perception is all focused on social mobility, to a point where there's the certain pockets of society claiming there's some kind of reverse prejudice going on, where people from kind of more privileged backgrounds aren't necessarily getting the places they deserve, and whatnot. And I think, I genuinely hope that is not the case. But those platforms should be neutral, no matter your gender, your sexual ethnicity, your culture, your background, if you're intelligent, and you've got the right attributes, they are your platform for succeeding, really. And you would hope that the prejudiced within them is diminishing, as we become more aware of, of these issues. And I probably think it is, but then naturally, the fees that are increasing and continue to rise, indirectly create a prejudice from the outset. So that's a problem. And you compare that to other countries, particularly in kind of Scandinavia, where there's a lot of free education at that level, the society, the economy is absolutely thriving to one where people are having to pay 1000s, before they even got into the door, and now there are strikes going on, that's got to be concerned, don't know how they're going to kind of ride these these issues, really, but it feels like prejudice at all levels, looking at the initial criteria to get in from a funding perspective needs to be locked up.

When we went to university, it was 1100 pounds a year, then it went to 3000. And now it's at nine 9000. It's kind of veering its way more towards the US education system. And you know, I wouldn't be surprised if it starts to get to that point, you know, in the Boston, Boston College, Harvard, Yale, or those Ivy League schools, you're paying 40 $50,000 a year. So I wouldn't be surprised if it does get to that point. And for people from our background, how do you actually how does that become valuable? How can you actually afford that kind of stuff? It

doesn't, that's that's that it doesn't become viable, even at 1100 pounds. So we were the last of the so called cheap intake, I would say, and fast track to what 2020 Maybe. So 12 or so years after leaving university, having paved a kind of legal career path, I've only just paid off the debt at that level.

That's crazy. I didn't realize that. Last thing I wanted to mention today is I find it fascinating that you were such an outlier from school. I don't think we were destined for very much coming from the school that we did one of the lowest performing schools in Wigan. But I'm curious, what made you stand out compared to everyone else? Why? Why are you a partner at a law firm know when someone else from that school might be unemployed. And obviously, we know people who've been to prison, or who are still in prison from that school as well.

Your family has got a lot to do with it, if your family are giving you that support. Platform, even if they've not got any kind of necessarily direct experience in university and things like that. As long as they're encouraging, as encouraging as they can be. And as helpful as they can be. Then that that that's a key. A key component is the hard work the self discipline. Touching back to the kind of original story is absolutely key because no one's going to do this stuff for you. You don't just jump to getting good grades through education, London, a career doing law in the first place. So then working your way up to being partner by blogging it. There's just not a society like times are too tough, too much competition out there. But then also harness the skills from your background just because you come from a kind of working class background. That's brilliant in some senses, the way you kind of interact and apply the right pressure in the work I do, can really kind of bring to fruition some positive outcomes for you and your clients because you can almost spot spot through some of the bullshit With appointments, you can navigate this slippier characters a bit, a bit quicker, you can get those three characters on your side, where by just being a bit kind of wiser, and I'm not sure I would necessarily be able to do that if you weren't playing those games of disguising what it is you're doing in a school where people are getting beat up and selling drugs and all of his stuff day to day, that school at the end of the day, that was the first kind of start to my academic career. I know, people were throwing stones at windows and all that kind of stuff. But a lot of these people I'm still friends with know, and there's a tongue in cheek to a lot of that. Like it was like it will let you know, we think you're a nerd. But we have a pint now and we kind of accept it and we're happy that you've done well, or the people you've not seen for the years it feels like sometimes you see them and you get treated with a bit of suspicion or didn't quite know you are they forget that you're the same love do knocking about messing about playing the class clown years ago, you still that person inside you still but you've just kind of progressed, you've kicked on you adapted. you've challenged yourself.