[00:00:00] Dr Renee White: Knowledge is power, and we are all about empowering the mamas of the world. In each episode, we will unravel and interpret the latest research and evidence-based practices for pregnancy, postpartum, and motherhood. As mums and researchers ourselves, we have experienced firsthand the overwhelming complexity of information myths and those classic old wives tales.

[00:00:27] Dr Renee White: I'm Dr. Renee White, and this is The [00:00:30] Science of Motherhood. Hello and welcome to episode 174 of The Science of Motherhood. I'm your host, Dr. Renee White. Thanks so much for joining me today. We have got one of our extended episodes with a beautiful Fleur Chambers. I cannot wait for you to listen to this. It's, I love talking to Flur.

[00:00:48] Dr Renee White: She is just one of a kind, and I have to say, if you're just listening to audio and you're over on our YouTube channel, pop over to the YouTube channel. Fleur has got this [00:01:00] just beautiful aura about herself, it is stunning, so, so good. I can't wait for you to listen to this, um, chat that we have. But before we dive into today's episode, I just wanted to give a shout out to everyone who's celebrated Mother's Day over the weekend for all the mamas who are currently mamas Happy Mother's Day for all the mamas who are to be mothers, want to be mothers.

[00:01:28] Dr Renee White: It will come. It's a [00:01:30] matter of time and for those of you who you know, sometimes there's some of us who do struggle over that, over that day, my heart goes out to you. Take some time and rest for yourself. So this is actually probably a really beautiful episode to listen to. It is about confidence. It is about reflection.

[00:01:53] Dr Renee White: It is about self-care. It is about imposter syndrome. All the things, [00:02:00] and if you want a little booster, with some oxytocin and cookies are your thing. They definitely are mine. So, um, if you do, we've got a little cheeky discount for our meal kits and self-care kits on our website. If you use the code, fill my cup all one word F-I-L-L-M-Y-C-U-P, you can get 10% off any one of our [00:02:30] meal kits and we'll put the link in the show notes below.

[00:02:34] Dr Renee White: So enjoy some oxytocin boosting, um, meal kits that, you know, you can whip together in like 15 minutes flat. They're awesome. Lactation cookies, dahl, nice, beautiful postpartum kind of sits, which you can have in the bath. Absolutely gorgeous. Alright, today's episode we have got the absolutely amazing Fleur Chambers with [00:03:00] us.

[00:03:00] Dr Renee White: She's got a new book. She is so, so talented. My goodness. This new book is amazing. It's called Wholehearted Confidence. I received a copy of it last year, and I tell you what, it could not have come at a better time. I was having like this real ugh moment like. Ah, I was struggling a bit. I was, I was struggling a bit with confidence and I was definitely struggling a bit with imposter syndrome and I opened it up and I started to read it and I thought, oh my goodness, the [00:03:30] universe, you know when you put things out into the ether and like things come back at you and you're like, yep, definitely needed that.

[00:03:36] Dr Renee White: So Fleur walks us through the inspiration behind the book. She talks about this amazing thing called Wholehearted Posture. I really want you to do it. Do it as you're listening. It's awesome. Don't do it if you're driving a car because you have to take your eyes off the road, but practice it. If you're sitting at the lights, practice it.

[00:03:58] Dr Renee White: We also talk about [00:04:00] small kind of comments, big impacts, how that's like a personal kind of imprint on your life. I'm a huge believer of that. I think there are certain things in life where people are particularly early motherhood. People make really small comments and they can have huge impacts. I still have core memories from certain things that were said to me when I was pregnant and early postpartum, and we kind of walk through why that is and, and how you can [00:04:30] kind of work through that.

[00:04:31] Dr Renee White: Um, and then we dive into what I like to call my own self therapy session, which is how I kind of hijack these guest episodes sometimes for myself and I, I talk to Fleur about, you know, how do you, how do you kind of overcome this whole imposter syndrome and, and self-doubt and things like that. So she walks us through that, which is absolutely amazing.

[00:04:56] Dr Renee White: And then we finish up on like. I guess [00:05:00] leaning into those seasons of life, that is something that I had never really conceptualised until I entered motherhood and I kept hearing people say. You know, I know you're really tired. I know this feels like a lot, but it's just the season of life you're in. And I was like, what the heck?

[00:05:18] Dr Renee White: But as I've dived further and further into this motherhood journey, I totally get it. I totally understand that there are, certain chapters in our lives where we have to surrender and [00:05:30] we have to accept the things that are in front of us and we can't go flat chat, which was a huge issue for me, hello A type personality.

[00:05:38] Dr Renee White: So if you are an A type personality like me, um, and that's something you really struggle with, then please listen to this get Fleur's book, Wholehearted Confidence. It's absolutely amazing. It's got per like, it's. It's, it's the type of book I really love. It's got like the kind of factual stuff. It's got the personal stories in it from people that [00:06:00] she has worked with, and then it's also got like the what to do next.

[00:06:03] Dr Renee White: So there's like tangible tools that you can go, okay, this is how I'm gonna practice it. They're the types of books that I really love. So if that sings to you, then this is totally gonna be your jam. So Fleur Chambers, Wholehearted Confidence. Get yourself a copy at Think. You can grab it off Amazon. It will be in the show notes, the link to the book.

[00:06:26] Dr Renee White: Alright, enough of my waffling please. [00:06:30] Here is Fleur Chambers. Hello and welcome to the podcast, Fleur Chambers. How are you?

[00:06:39] Fleur Chambers: I'm good. Thanks so much for having me. I'm, I'm really pleased to be here.

[00:06:43] Dr Renee White: Oh, I'm so pleased to have you back. Thank you and all the listeners would've heard from the introduction that you have a new book, uh, which was released in November last year, which is very, very exciting.

[00:06:57] Dr Renee White: Is this your third book? Third.

[00:07:00] Fleur Chambers: Yes it is.

[00:07:01] Dr Renee White: Wow. For all those playing at home on the visuals, this is the beautiful book. Wholehearted Confidence and can I just say first before we even dive into anything Fleur, the illustrations in this book, I am gonna start like a petition. Can you please have these as like a separate thing that I can buy in like a calendar or something?

[00:07:25] Dr Renee White: They are absolutely gorgeous. I was just like, [00:07:30] I, every time I'd flick through a page I'd be like, oh, that's so pretty and they've got beautiful like. I'm just gonna show you this one everyone. They've got like beautiful quotes on them. They're just gorgeous.

[00:07:43] Dr Renee White: Who did those?

[00:07:45] Fleur Chambers: Thank you. Um, so an American illustrator did the illustrations and I worked with her to put the words over the top.

[00:07:58] Fleur Chambers: Mm-hmm. The book, I [00:08:00] really wanted to have an energy and a. Feeling to it. There's so many self-help books out there, but I wanted people to hold that book in their hands and flick to a page and just take a deep exhale because it's a beautiful book. It's illustrated. There are practices. The color is an intentional journey.

[00:08:22] Fleur Chambers: Like it starts quite dark with purples and browns and marons when we're in our sort of shadow aspects, and then it [00:08:30] gets lighter and more joyful as we move through. So the colors and the way the book's designed is just as important as the words.

[00:08:41] Dr Renee White: That's so true. Now that you've said that. Okay. This is one of my favorite, it's got no words on it, but I love this.

[00:08:46] Dr Renee White: I love abstract art. Like at that. So I was like, I want like a, I was like, I want a bedspread like that. Something like, I was like, I am just all here for it. Okay. [00:09:00] Now I'm seeing the different color tones as I'm flicking through. That's so true. Yeah. I love that. I love that. I love that amazing book. I haven't got through all of it because I, like I, I went through and I was like, I haven't done all the, like, you know, sit down with all the journaling and the activities, but the stuff that I read through the thing that I loved is the, you talk about the positioning and you [00:09:30] explain things, but then you actually give us a tangible thing like that.

[00:09:35] Dr Renee White: My brain really works like that like I loved the, and I'm smiling already with it. I loved the whole like shoulders back, open your heart and you smile at the sky. Do you know what? As I was reading that, I thought to myself, I do that sometimes just I think subconsciously, like if I'm having a crap day, I'll like, I'll [00:10:00] lie in bed and I'll just be like, just smile. Everything will be okay. Just smile. And it's so true that it just kind of like is a circuit breaker right.

[00:10:12] Fleur Chambers: Absolutely. So that that is the wholehearted. Posture, really. And so what it speaks to is this idea that often in life we get really caught in this energy of forward momentum. [00:10:30] We're planning tomorrow we are thinking about our to do list.

[00:10:33] Fleur Chambers: We're organizing dinner shopping. And what happens when our mind is caught in this future world is actually our body follows suit and our shoulders hunch over. Our head moves forward, our neck moves forward. You can sense this forward momentum and this energy of striving in the physical body. Mm-hmm. And also adding to that, holding babies, bending [00:11:00] down for toddlers.

[00:11:01] Fleur Chambers: It's a very closed off, sort of forward hunching posture, and that actually makes your gut tight. It closes off your heart. And so I thought we'd start the whole book with this really simple practice that people can do anywhere, anytime to circuit break that forward momentum and it's really just about shoulders back, heart open and receiving the energy of a smile from [00:11:30] the sky. The sky that is always here to hold us the sky that's bigger than we are that doesn't judge clouds can move across the sky, birds, rainbows, all beautiful things and if we can just take a breath into that smile and allow it to work its way down our body, softening our eyes.

[00:11:51] Fleur Chambers: The to-do lists, the fear, the worries, the insecurities, the burdens, and then even better if we can send [00:12:00] that smile. Our own sense of friendliness and generosity into the earth below, which is always holding us grounded, allows us to feel safe and secure, and so that simple practice. Those shoulders back, heart open just reminds you that you're not alone, that you are connected to something bigger than you, that you are held by the sky above and the earth below, and it can just really help you, one, feel less [00:12:30] drivey and busy, and two, feel more at home and at ease in your body and in the world.

[00:12:37] Dr Renee White: Yeah, absolutely. I think it's something that. When you're talking about that, we talk with new mums or to be new mums about. When those moments get really tough in those first, you know, in that first 12 months or whenever it is, and I call them [00:13:00] oxytocin boosters, and it's just like that moment where you pause and you just have to have that circuit breaker.

[00:13:07] Dr Renee White: And whether it's one minute, three minutes, five minutes, 10 minutes, whatever that activity is, but that's so right. Like you could be you know pushingthe pram and like things are just cycling in your head. You could be 3:00 AM baby crying or you know, you're just having a feed or like, whatever it is. And it is in that moment where you can [00:13:30] just shoulders back, tip your head up to the sky, smile.

[00:13:34] Dr Renee White: Take a moment that, that you do need, you'd need that circuit breaker to just kind of like, just check back in with it all. So it's so beautiful.

[00:13:44] Fleur Chambers: And you're so right around the energy of a smile spurs that those neurotransmitters in the brain, all those happy chemicals. And it's not about a fake smile. Yes, it's not this fake until you make it.

[00:13:57] Fleur Chambers: It's this gentle smile, [00:14:00] which actually symbolises. A willingness to be with it all, to be with the crying baby at night, to be with your worry about tomorrow, that you're gonna be tired to be with the regret of yesterday, to be with the hope of next week. So it's this gentle willingness to say yes to it all.

[00:14:22] Dr Renee White: Hmm. I wanna go back to the beginning of the story of, of this book and you [00:14:30] mapping it out. What was the inspiration? Was there like a moment in time where you are like, I need to put pen to paper and get this down because some of the stuff that you've written in just in the introduction, I was like, yes, yes.

[00:14:45] Dr Renee White: And you were talking about, just earlier, about there's so many self-help books and all the rest of it and this whole fake itty make it thing. And I think we'll touch on that later, but was there like a, like was this something that you saw? Was this something that you heard? What [00:15:00] was it that you were like, I have to put this in a book?

[00:15:02] Fleur Chambers: Well, it started as a course, okay, so it was a 21 day meditation course, which 20,000 people went through and absolutely loved, so I really wanted to make it more accessible to people who maybe wouldn't identify as meditators. Mm-hmm.

[00:15:21] Fleur Chambers: Thought I could do that, but really what happened for me was a rough period in my own life when I had [00:15:30] three small children and a chronic pain condition, which really meant that all the things that I identified as being a good mum, being a mindfulness and meditation teacher, getting the meals on the table, calling my mum, you know, I just couldn't do any of those things. And so I started getting curious about who am I, if I'm not all those things.

[00:15:54] Fleur Chambers: That I thought I needed to be, and there was like this just rumbling of inner [00:16:00] confidence that was actually coming up as I was being with the hard times and I started asking myself, hang on, what if our challenges and our setbacks actually make us more, not less confident. 'cause there's this narrative of, you know, you get banged down by your challenges.

[00:16:19] Fleur Chambers: You fall to the ground, you've gotta pick yourself up. But hang on, what if the hard times and the moments of vulnerability actually make us more [00:16:30] not less confident? Mm. And I also just really got tired of this idea of. Almost like this patriarchal notion of confidence that a confident person has a wide leg stance and shakes a hand firmly and fake it till you make it.

[00:16:49] Fleur Chambers: And they impart their wisdom onto other people and I was actually like, think I wanna call bullshit on this idea of confidence. Yeah. Because what it does [00:17:00] is it excludes a whole lot of beautiful people who are gentle, introverted, willing to listen more than speak. Have imposter syndrome, self-doubt, vulnerabilities.

[00:17:16] Fleur Chambers: Why are these people excluded from feeling confident? And when they are excluded, it means they don't contribute to the world and share their gifts. Mm-hmm. So I really wanted to create a framework that allowed [00:17:30] people that historically wouldn't have fitted into that traditional model of confidence to actually feel confident with their insecurities, their vulnerabilities, their deep desires, their history, so they could actually show up and live a big, bold, and beautiful life too.

[00:17:49] Dr Renee White: Mm. I absolutely love that because I love that whole notion of being quietly confident with things and that, you know, there are [00:18:00] people, when you were talking about it, like I instantly thought of my husband, he's not.

[00:18:06] Dr Renee White: He's an introvert. He's so articulate, and some people may regard him as sometimes aloof as well because he's the type of person where he doesn't talk a lot, but what he says is very, that everything has intent. Every word is carefully like curated and so when he says something like, people [00:18:30] stop and listen and that and that picture, I was like, that is totally him.

[00:18:36] Dr Renee White: I, I, yeah. I absolutely loved that. The beginning of, um, when you were talking about. Like the inspiration behind all that 20,000 people as well Fleur, holy guacamole. That is like, that's a se Do you know what that is? A serious, like n equals 20,000. This works. I'm gonna write a book about how this, how this is gonna change people.

[00:18:57] Dr Renee White: That's sensational. I wanna talk [00:19:00] about another part of the book that I, uh, really, really resonated with and like, every single time I read a passage there was like. Just like a personal thing. Like it was like, um, you know, inside out where they go, bing core memory. That is what this was for me. So I wanna talk about personal imprints and you discuss the fact that I.

[00:19:25] Dr Renee White: It doesn't need to be a huge life event to have like a [00:19:30] huge, big imprint or big impact. Sometimes it's the small comments that really stick with you. And I'm gonna give you an example where it comes to me for confidence and it's, I still remember this and it's, God, how old was I? I was 23, so that's 17 years ago.

[00:19:52] Dr Renee White: And I'll paint the picture and then I'd love your thoughts around this as well. So I used, uh, when I was doing my PhD, I was [00:20:00] like, you know, this young little whipper snapper in the lab and we had to do these particular experiments and, you know, I was still building my confidence in the lab and one day I messed up, I messed up the experiment.

[00:20:18] Dr Renee White: And I was, I was told by my supervisor, okay, you're only allowed to do one per day now of these things. Because I think I tried to do like three in a day [00:20:30] of this particular thing. 'cause I needed to like churn out results quickly right. And he's like, you clearly can't do three, you only, you can only do one.

[00:20:39] Dr Renee White: And it really shook me like, I was like, oh my God. Like I messed up once and now I'm only allowed to do one per day. Fast forward six months from then. I got sent, uh, overseas to Sweden to work in a lab over there, and that was always part of our PhD, that we got [00:21:00] to work in a lab overseas and I went and worked for this woman and she was like, she was a force to be reckoned with.

[00:21:09] Dr Renee White: She was fabulous like she, as soon as I met her, I was like, I wanna come back and work here permanently. And I remember turning up and I had to do this same type of experiment and I said to her, and I only had a limited amount of time, I had two weeks, that's all I had and I was doing the calculations and I'm thinking, I'm gonna have to be here.

[00:21:28] Dr Renee White: If I'm only allowed to do one per [00:21:30] day, I'm gonna have to be here like 24 7. And I said, I remember saying to her, I've just done the math, like how many of these am I allowed to do to per day? And she just looked at me and she's like, well, however many you want. And I was like, what? You know? And she was like, well, how many can you do in one day?

[00:21:52] Dr Renee White: And I was like, well, I think I could do six and she's like, well, you do six and she did [00:22:00] not question it at all. She had no qualms whatsoever and she just had, she was just like all full confidence in me from the get go and I did mess up a couple, but she was like, that's fine, just do 'em again tomorrow.

[00:22:16] Dr Renee White: And I was like, okay. But it's something that has stuck with me forever and I, I distinctly remember, I'm very like sentimental with things. I still picture walking down [00:22:30] the path to this university that I worked at in Sweden, and there was like autumn leaves on the ground and I picked up one of these beautiful leaves and, and I took it with me and I kept it in my journal for ages.

[00:22:43] Dr Renee White: And it's something that has stuck with me because it, to me, it like represents like this moment where someone just said you can do whatever you feel confident to do, right? It's those little things. Why is it those little [00:23:00] things, Fleur? What is it that happens in our brains that we're like, yep, I'm gonna take that.

[00:23:04] Fleur Chambers: Well, that story is just so beautiful and thanks so much for sharing it, and I just absolutely love that the book is allowing those stories to emerge for you because they are real. We carry those in our body and I just have so many thoughts on that. I hope I don't forget them. But the first thing I will say is how amazing when [00:23:30] you had the positive experience to sort of soothe and heal.

[00:23:34] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:23:35] Fleur Chambers: That trauma from before that you intuitively knew to connect to nature. To grab the autumnal leave, which is beautiful symbolism of letting go. Autumn. All about letting go.

[00:23:49] Dr Renee White: Yes. Oh my God.

[00:23:52] Fleur Chambers: Any trauma, you put it in your diary, you write about it. So you actually allowed that healing to [00:24:00] land. Through that act of nature and the the leaf. So that's just awesome that you knew how to soothe yourself. But back to the initial experience, so. When we have interactions like that, they land in our physical body as sort of little T trauma, and then we create beliefs, hearts, and personalities to protect ourselves for ever, [00:24:30] feeling like that again. So I imagine that when that man said you made a mistake, you need to be punished.

[00:24:39] Fleur Chambers: You created a narrative of it's shameful and wrong to make a mistake that can then create something, a story in you of, I've gotta get things right all the time. I need to get things perfect in order to be safe. I don't wanna ever feel that shock and shame again, so I'm just [00:25:00] gonna follow the rules. I'm not gonna get anything wrong.

[00:25:03] Fleur Chambers: And how the stories and the trauma lands for each of us is different. Depending on our history and our biology and our nervous system, but I'm guessing also that that story from him probably has a link deeper into your childhood, like also age, like

[00:25:25] Dr Renee White: 100%.

[00:25:26] Fleur Chambers: Maybe it wasn't. Maybe you were always messy or [00:25:30] maybe your mom told you not to, to you know you never get things right or you are always breaking things or whatever. There'll actually be a link to those even more formative years, which is probably why you couldn't just brush off this person's in the first place. But it's just the awareness. And so I guess the idea is Big T trauma. Is the really big events living through a war. Um, domestic violence, poverty, racism, little t [00:26:00] trauma are these small everyday events that actually make a lasting imprint.

[00:26:07] Fleur Chambers: And so part of the wholehearted confidence framework is not thinking that trauma is someone else's deal. Mm-hmm. Actually realising we all have little pockets of trauma within us. Yeah. And that we have the responsibility to get curious about them because they then shape how we show up as an adult.

[00:26:29] Dr Renee White: Oh, [00:26:30] absolutely. And you, you bang on, like I've come from a household where perfectionism is praised and, you know, always been a high achiever because that's, that's how you succeeded in life, you know? What was your academic score? That is how, that is how everything is quantified. So absolutely. I love the fact that, 'cause that Autumn Leaf has stuck in my head for so long.

[00:26:58] Dr Renee White: And I also [00:27:00] remember, like, it sounds so stupid, I don't think I've ever like admitted this on the podcast, but I actually wanted to get a jar. I was like, I want to, to jar the air or something 'cause I was like, what is, like this feeling inside me was so, um, unusual. Like, and it also was like the first time I ever traveled overseas by myself.

[00:27:27] Dr Renee White: Like there was this whole [00:27:30] liberating moment for me. So I think the combination of it all, I was just like, it, like that was just gonna happen. Like it was always, that moment in time was, was gonna be sealed for, for future again.

[00:27:46] Fleur Chambers: Freedom to break free from the stories and limitations of our past. Often having a mentor or someone that just sees you in a more positive, liberating light. And [00:28:00] another thing I often do is when I notice some sort of caught in some little T trauma energy is I say, whose voice is this? Mm. So if I myself a story of, oh, I didn't get that right with the kids, or I ate too much cake today or better watch what I eat. You are lazy. Whatever it is. I'm like, whose voice is that?

[00:28:21] Fleur Chambers: Mm-hmm. And you can easily find it. It's either your mom's, your dad's, your school, your first boss. It's actually somebody [00:28:30] else's voice. It's not your, um.

[00:28:32] Dr Renee White: Yeah, absolutely. We're gonna shift gears a little bit because, and this is probably my self-indulgent section that I always have on the podcast, where I kind of make it a semi therapy session as well, although I know I'm not alone in this, so I'm, I'm gonna talk about this for all, uh, my other sisters out there, so.

[00:28:53] Dr Renee White: And we've touched on this, you talk about how there, like the stereotypical form [00:29:00] of a confident person is one who has like no self-doubt or imposter syndrome or anything like that. I'd love to know what your tips are for people who actually do experience that and how we can turn the tables on it because that is something that.

[00:29:19] Dr Renee White: It's really interesting. When your book landed in my lap last year, I was like, it could not have come at a better time. I was really kind of in the [00:29:30] depths of struggling with imposter syndrome. It was that moment where I was just like, oh my God like can you stop living rent free in my head, like that voice of like just constant doubt and things like that. How do we tackle this? Like what are some top tips for me and the listeners as well?

[00:29:53] Fleur Chambers: It's a great question and I'll start by saying I have never met anyone [00:30:00] that doesn't have some level of vulnerability. Mm-hmm. A fear of being an imposter, a worry that people will find them out. Uh, fear of not being enough.

[00:30:11] Fleur Chambers: Comparisons, high standards. I think it's actually part of being human. Mm-hmm. And I dare say that people that tell you they don't have any of that are probably just disassociated and have pushed it so far down, they just can't access it. [00:30:30] So I would start by saying that certainly a lot of people don't have it to such an extent that it doesn't have a negative impact on their lives. I know there are some people that don't have a lot of a loud inner critic, for example, but most of us do. Most of us that are listening to podcasts that are interested in self-inquiry definitely have an awareness around their vulnerabilities. So I would start by just normalising it.[00:31:00]

[00:31:00] Fleur Chambers: Then I would say it's not about getting rid of what people often do. There's this trajectory. People, first of all, realise that that voice of the inner critic. He's not necessarily theirs and they don't have to believe everything it says. And then they're like, okay, so I'm gonna get rid of this guy. And they go gung ho about just like squashing it and they're mean to it.

[00:31:24] Fleur Chambers: They tell it to F off. They're like, I'm not listening to you. And that doesn't work. [00:31:30] So we need to acknowledge that, that voice, that vulnerability, it's actually there to try and protect us. So take your example. The part of you that wants to get everything right, it's there to protect you from never feeling that shame that you felt when you got it wrong.

[00:31:49] Fleur Chambers: Mm-hmm. So we need to be kind and befriend this part of us because they're probably very young. And if you do have a great awareness, you can probably [00:32:00] even sense how young they are. Are they 12? Are they 13? Are they 22? And the more you can sort of identify that this part of you is trying to protect you, you can soften.

[00:32:13] Fleur Chambers: And what you can do is get really curious about where you feel it in your body. So just say you're really caught replaying yesterday, and you feel like you didn't get the baby to bed right? You didn't feed well. There was vomiting. You could [00:32:30] have done better. It was your fault. The baby didn't get to sleep at that time, you are like, okay, I am just gonna feel into this.

[00:32:37] Fleur Chambers: There's a young part of me that really just wants to get it right. Where do I feel that sort of in my body? And you might feel it as like a tightness across your shoulders, a heaviness in your tummy, a sadness in your heart, whatever, and just offer whatever's there. A few breaths and some loving care, and then you might like to [00:33:00] get a little bit honest with yourself.

[00:33:02] Fleur Chambers: So these protective parts, they do come at a cost. So what do I actually miss out on when I'm caught in this energy of perfectionism? And it's usually quite heartbreaking to realise, but you realise you miss out on like the moments of spontaneity, the delight of seeing your baby smile because you're so worried about the kitchen or you're replaying the conversation.

[00:33:27] Fleur Chambers: So it does come at a cost. You're [00:33:30] busy tidying the house so you don't enjoy it. When your friends come over, you feel like people are judging what you cooked so you don't enjoy the meal. So it comes at a cost. And then the fourth sort of part of it is this deep honesty recognising that there's probably some wisdom for you there.

[00:33:51] Fleur Chambers: So you might say to this part of you, you know, what do you want? What do you need from me? How can I help you? And they might say, the part [00:34:00] might say, back to you, I'm exhausted. I need to sleep. I need you to stop worrying about the small things. I need you to have a shower in the morning. I need you to drink more water so I can feel better.

[00:34:14] Fleur Chambers: I need you to forgive your mum, whatever it is, but just being willing to normalise the vulnerabilities. Get a little bit curious about where they sit in your body. Acknowledge that they [00:34:30] come at a cost and then ask for their wisdom. And maybe they're just there to tell you, you wanna be a really, really good mum? Mm. And just come back into that wisdom for a moment.

[00:34:42] Dr Renee White: Yeah. There's so much. Oh my God. I just wanna unpack on that as you were talking. The first thing that I wanna say and acknowledge is that, that leaning into your body and working out where you're feeling [00:35:00] that kind of, you know, self-doubt and and imposter syndrome, that is something that.

[00:35:06] Dr Renee White: I have only kind of tuned into, probably in the last couple of years, I would say, off the back of, uh, doing a kind of like a mother motherhood workshop with Lale Stone and Bernadette Lack, and I had like a massive breakdown in the, the middle of the workshop when they were doing [00:35:30] the body scanning. Just completely lost it.

[00:35:32] Dr Renee White: Like hysterically crying. I'm good friends with Bee as well. And she came over and she was like, look, everyone's quiet. There's like 35 of us and I'm just like, pouring with tears. And she was like, is everything okay? And I was like, I had to remove myself from like the area 'cause I was like, I'm gonna be interrupting people.

[00:35:49] Dr Renee White: And she was like, have you. Like, have you kind of, you know, looked into kind of this stuff? And I was like, I've done like 10 years of therapy. She's like, yeah, so like, talk [00:36:00] therapy. And I was like, yes. I was like, I don't understand what's going on and she was like, have you done any body work? And I was like, what?

[00:36:09] Dr Renee White: Like, what's that? And she was like, okay, let's just, let's just pare this back. I, um, I went and got a womb massage here in Hobart with the beautiful Ella Pascal, and it was life changing, [00:36:30] like so, so beautiful. So if anyone's thinking, how do I lean into this? Like go and seek out someone who is, who is skilled at this type of stuff.

[00:36:42] Dr Renee White: My second comment is the cost. So true Fleur. Like it reminded me of an argument that we just kept having time and time again, my husband and I, where I refused to have anyone come and clean the house when we had a baby. And so the only thing we would ever [00:37:00] fight about, not the only thing, let's be honest, but like the major thing we would fight about is the weekend would come and I'd be like, well, we've gotta clean the house. And my husband's like, I'm exhausted. I don't wanna clean the house. Like, let's just get a cleaner. We can afford this, Renee. And I was like, absolutely not. Because I was like, I'll be judged. How can I not keep my house clean? I can't have someone come in and judge my house because it's a mess.

[00:37:27] Dr Renee White: All of that stuff. So we do have a cleaner [00:37:30] now, and I can tell you it has just softened everything in terms of, you know, my relationship with my husband and also that act of learning how to ask for help as well has been a completely life changing thing for me and a muscle I continue to flex on the daily.

[00:37:54] Dr Renee White: And the third thing that I wanted to comment about, I'm just thinking of all of these things you are telling [00:38:00] me is, you know, when you were talking about like asking that question to yourself, like where is his voice coming from? What do you want? I have found, I really struggle with that type of stuff, like just that solo in reflection thing. But one thing that I found is really helpful is journaling.

[00:38:18] Dr Renee White: Like stuff comes out of me and I'm like, where did that come from? And it's like my hand is just like. Something else, you know? And like I'll get to the end of the page. I'll be like, I will [00:38:30] literally have, I've had light bulb moments about stuff that has happened 30 years ago and I'm like, how has this only just come out like, it's like a magic trick something journal. Do you journal? Is that something you do?

[00:38:51] Fleur Chambers: Yeah, I do. And I think they're really important comments and reflections you've had. So the first one is around safety. [00:39:00] So you have to think of if you've been closed off or just not aware of your physical body for years. We just need to tread lightly, don't we? Um, so we find ourselves feeling overwhelmed by sensations that come up.

[00:39:15] Fleur Chambers: And so we remember when we do this work that we get to choose and that if it ever feels too strong, then we can use breath. We can move our awareness to a place that does feel safe. Perhaps the earth beneath [00:39:30] us, the sky above. So that's why that wholehearted confidence posture is so good, because if you ever do this self-inquiry and you're feeling a little bit anxious or uncalibrated or untethered, you've just come back to that wholehearted posture.

[00:39:44] Fleur Chambers: You have a nice cup of tea, maybe a biscuit. You go outside, notice the trees and you just come back in. So you get to sort of pendulate between inquiry and then coming back to safety and [00:40:00] that's, that's for you to decide. And then the other thing I wanted to say, um, around that, at what cost, the big one for me was I would never have people over unless my house was tidy.

[00:40:14] Dr Renee White: Oh my God, yes.

[00:40:16] Fleur Chambers: And I just realised how many incidental moments of being sociable that I missed. And I also realised how much I love going to someone else's house that's messy. Like I just think I just [00:40:30] love going to someone else's messy house 'cause it makes me realise that they're not all the things I am imagined that they were.

[00:40:37] Fleur Chambers: Yeah. Um, it's deeply comforting and I thought, okay, well I'll give other people the gift of seeing my messy house. Yes. Perfect. And the journaling is very interesting and what it speaks to is finding your own pathway in. So for you it might be writing. [00:41:00] For others, it could be music. Mm-hmm. Listening to the same song and having a good old cry and something coming up.

[00:41:07] Fleur Chambers: For others, it might be walking on the beach with their shoes off. For others it might be meditation. For me, I do find that asking direct questions to nature, to my body, to my heart the fastest way for me to tap into that intuitive space. But other people might draw a blank and they might need to write or [00:41:30] draw. Mm-hmm. So it's about trusting yourself that you actually get to choose the tool that works for you.

[00:41:37] Dr Renee White: Yeah, absolutely. I think it comes from the fact that I'm so visually orientated and I think just seeing the words on the page like does something for me. But before we just jump into one of our last questions, I just wanted to say on the point of like messy houses and things like that.

[00:41:54] Dr Renee White: About 18 months ago, I made a conscious decision. I had just decided, I was like, that's [00:42:00] it. I'm never going to apologise for the state of my house or I'm never gonna say to someone, oh my God, I'm so sorry my house is like a tip, or It's messy or what, I'm never going to apologise for this again. And it is, it is been something that I've had to catch myself like in the moment to not do, like, you know, we've got next door neighbors.

[00:42:24] Dr Renee White: My daughter goes to school with, you know, their daughter, and so constantly coming and [00:42:30] going and, you know, picking up kids and we're 300 meters from the school and so it, our house is very much like everyone kind of hangs at our house. And I just honestly kept doing this shameful thing of like, oh my God, I'm so sorry my house is a mess. And now I'm just like, you know what? I'm not doing it. I'm not doing it. I am that person where you come to my house and it's a complete bomb and I'm gonna embrace it because it means that my kid is having fun and that the other kids are having fun and [00:43:00] that this is just how it is and everyone can just suck eggs on it, as far as I'm concerned.

[00:43:09] Dr Renee White: One of our final questions before we jump into our rapid flyer fire is you talk about celebrating seasons, which I really, really love. It's something that we talk to our, you know, new mums about all the time, and it is. It's something that you and I, I think, kind of touched on, you know, [00:43:30] offline when it, when we're talking about changing gears from like busy, busy, busy, busy, busy to, okay, this is like us kind of dialing down.

[00:43:40] Dr Renee White: So, and something that kind of is a special interest of mine at the moment is, you know, our monthly cycle understanding where we're at in terms of our hormone levels and how that impacts, you know, our lives on the daily. But I'd love to know, you know, when we're talking about [00:44:00] celebrating seasons, it could be our monthly cycle.

[00:44:02] Dr Renee White: It could be, you know, we are going from maiden to mother, or it could be like, you know, perimenopause, menopause, whatever that looks like. How do we embrace that change? How do we go from, you know, one kind of, I guess it, it almost feels like going from like one treadmill to like walking or like vice versa.

[00:44:27] Dr Renee White: What's your tips around that?

[00:44:29] Fleur Chambers: Well, I [00:44:30] think just acknowledging that life is always changing, so. It's not actually that we're going from one bounded up concrete truth to another, we're not going from perimenopause to menopause. There's actually always small changes going on. So the idea that we are the same for like a 10 year period or a seven year period is actually an illusion anyway, so.[00:45:00]

[00:45:00] Fleur Chambers: What if we could imagine that each day is actually a different season? I start each day saying, I'm grateful for today, a day that I have never seen before and even just that small thing just opens me up to the idea that I actually have no idea what's gonna unfold for this day. I can plan it out. I can meal prep, I can do all the things, but I have no idea.

[00:45:28] Fleur Chambers: And could we [00:45:30] allow the impermanent nature of our lives actually to be a place of comfort, delight, or in wonder rather than something we have to be frightened about, try and control or cling onto. So I think the big seasonal changes kids from toddlers to school age kids from teenagers to adults, they feel like sort of big seasonal [00:46:00] shifts.

[00:46:00] Fleur Chambers: Mm-hmm. But the truth is each day is change anyway. So I think as well, we acknowledge that transition is tricky and letting go of the old, before being sure of what the new is going to be can be uncomfortable and that's okay. So offering ourselves grace in the transition. So I am feeling at the moment very murky [00:46:30] around the transition from school holidays to back to school.

[00:46:33] Fleur Chambers: Mm. Don't feel grounded. I haven't got my routines in place. I'm mourning the school holidays whilst also feeling a sense of relief. So I'm just offering myself grace in the messy middle, I guess. And I think that's what we can all do.

[00:46:51] Fleur Chambers: And there's always wisdom. I find potentially nature, a great way to access some wisdom. So [00:47:00] whether it be relating to your cycle, to your kids, to the moons, whatever it is, like nature is actually always there to teach us that the seasons can just feel natural. So I will look at my season and notice the features, the color of the leaves, the feel, the breeze, the state of the earth, but looking up at the sky, and again, I will just say, I wonder what message this [00:47:30] season's got for me. Like that autumnal leaf might have had a message of letting go, uh, the first flowers of spring, an invitation for you to blossom to try something new. So nature is a big one for me around accessing wisdom. And so I guess what, what lands for you when we are having that chat? Like how do you. Become more accepting and cognizant of your changing seasons. [00:48:00]

[00:48:00] Dr Renee White: I love that. I, I love the fact that you're embracing and you're acknowledged that there's that messy middle between transitioning from school holidays to, you know, the regular routine.

[00:48:11] Dr Renee White: I had like a spiraling moment, I have to be honest, before I jumped onto this podcast because I was like, oh my God, we're back at school. We're already back into activities and I'm thinking. Okay, God, we've got gymnastics tonight. I've got almost back to back meetings and normally, normally [00:48:30] I would've had like something stocked in the freezer that I can just pull out 'cause we don't finish gymnastics till like five 30. I know everyone's gonna be hungry and I literally just stood in the kitchen, I think for a good 15 minutes and was like, yep, I've got nothing and um, yeah. Excellent. Like, what am I gonna do? And, and then I was just like, it's okay, Renee like we can just get [00:49:00] sushi after gymnastics.

[00:49:02] Dr Renee White: Like the world will not end. It's okay that you don't have like a home cooked meal from the freezer that you can pull from and it's okay 'cause this is week one. Like we're super, we're, we're the last to go back to school here in Tasmania, so, and I, so thank you Fleur for reminding me that I need to take a little bit of grace as well for myself to transition back into this crazy routine.

[00:49:26] Fleur Chambers: Oh, absolutely. The other night I tried to cook dinner [00:49:30] after all the kids stuff. And it was like I had lost an ability to multitask in the kitchen and I was like, how have I regressed? Like there's skill regression. Um, I sort of was like rude to a kid or whatever we all sat down. It was a weird vibe and I just owned it.

[00:49:49] Fleur Chambers: I just said, sorry guys. I'm finding the transition back into the routine hard, uh, you know, I'm just offering myself grace and so what [00:50:00] that does. Modeling that is also sends a message to the kids that if they're feeling like they're more tired in their first week of school than they thought they would be, if the friendships feel a bit murky, if they're finding it hard to concentrate, that maybe they'll offer themselves some grace too. And the other thing I would add is. Do we really wanna get back to that state when we are just white knuckling it and we're, so we've got all the food in the freezer and we're one step ahead and Yes.[00:50:30]

[00:50:30] Fleur Chambers: So in that energy that we can cope, like what about just having a little bit of flow that meant, oh, there's no food in the fridge, we can get sushi. Yeah. Like that's probably okay too.

[00:50:43] Dr Renee White: Yeah. Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah. Uh, we're definitely doing that tonight. Okay. It has been amazing. We're about to jump into our rapid fire. Before we do that, is there anything else you wanted to add about, we'll [00:51:00] talk about where we can get, can everything at the end, but anything else, any other comments you wanted to add about.

[00:51:05] Fleur Chambers: Oh, I just wanted to say if you are here listening to this podcast, you are already enough. You are awesome. Your kids are lucky to have you. Offer a little bit of that love and care to yourself. You deserve it.

[00:51:21] Dr Renee White: Oh, that's beautiful. I love that for, thank you. Um, alright, here we go. What is your top tip [00:51:30] for mamas?

[00:51:33] Fleur Chambers: Laugh with your kids.

[00:51:35] Dr Renee White: I do love that. Obviously. Apart from your books, do you have any go-to resources for mums, whether it be, I mean, it can be another book, it can be a workshop. It, we've had, um, poems, um, any, any type of resource.

[00:51:54] Fleur Chambers: I do think there's a beautiful poem by Michael Luning on motherhood that if [00:52:00] people wanted to look up, it's really tender and really beautiful. Okay. We'll, uh, motherhood by Michael Luning.

[00:52:08] Dr Renee White: We'll put that in the show notes for sure. Our last question, which we always ask our guests borrowed by the lovely Brene Brown. What do you keep on your bedside table?

[00:52:19] Fleur Chambers: Uh, special potion

[00:52:21] Dr Renee White: Oh. Can share with the class.

[00:52:27] Fleur Chambers: It's a special potion. It's an Aura [00:52:30] Soma bottle, which they contain minerals and herbs and the energy of the earth, and you put them on your body and it activates and it's like a. Taking a little trip as you go to sleep.

[00:52:43] Dr Renee White: Oh wow. Is this something that you can buy like readily or this is something you have made up, especially for you?

[00:52:54] Fleur Chambers: Yeah, it's called Aura Soma, A-U-R-A-S-O-M-A. And there's [00:53:00] about 180 bottles in the collection. And the idea is that you choose a bottle that speaks to you intuitively and then you put it on your body. Yeah. And it activates so people could just look at the website and, and see if they like it. It's just another form of sort of, um, therapy, I guess. Like a reiki or, but you do it yourself.

[00:53:28] Dr Renee White: I'm looking it up now. Um, [00:53:30] first of all, I just wanna say aesthetically the bottles are gorgeous. Uh. Okay, cool. I'm liking this. We'll put that in the show notes as well. Thank you, Fleur. Alright, where can we find your book? How can people get in contact with you? And also, the other thing I wanna say is that we can find you on Insight Timer as well, which is one of only two apps that I recommend for [00:54:00] mums. Everything else can go in the bin as far as I'm concerned but Insight timer. Did we find you on there for the first time? I think I did. I did. I did find you on Insight Timer. That was when I, I think I first contacted you. But where can we find the book Fleur? How do we buy this?

[00:54:17] Fleur Chambers: So the book, Wholehearted Confidence, uh, I would just suggest buying on Amazon or wherever and getting it delivered straight to your home. I have my own meditation app called the Happy Habit. It's [00:54:30] all my own meditations, one voice, one teacher, one framework. There's heaps of meditations you can listen to. There's sleep practices, there's journaling, there's music, and you can access loads of that for free for as long as you like, none of this credit card will start taxing you in a week's time.

[00:54:50] Fleur Chambers: You've forgotten. And then if you wanted to sub subscribe to all of it, it's like five bucks a month. It's cheap as chips. They say,

[00:54:59] Dr Renee White: oh my [00:55:00] god.

[00:55:00] Fleur Chambers: Ridiculous. I need to do something about that.

[00:55:02] Dr Renee White: Yes you do. Everyone block your ears.

[00:55:07] Fleur Chambers: So that is my beautiful meditation app. I'm a no fast meditation teacher. If you wanna do it as you're taking a walk, if you want to do it while your kid's watching play school and you are just gonna put the headphones in, that's okay.

[00:55:22] Fleur Chambers: No pressure an imperfect meditation is better than no meditation. And then Instagram, I'm just all [00:55:30] about funny memes. That's what I'm posting at the moment because I think we could all just do with a laugh and realise that we are all dealing with the same stuff.

[00:55:39] Dr Renee White: Yeah, 100%. I'm, I'm, I'm with you. Funny memes all the way. Sometimes things are just, you know, particularly at the moment, things are heavy, you know, and sometimes you just need to have a giggle or like, you know, a wiggle if it's like good music, whatever, whatever floats your boat, really. But, um. [00:56:00] Thank you again for coming on the podcast. I always love chatting with you and as I said, I'm gonna, I almost feel like I need to like have like a night away or something like that with this book.

[00:56:10] Dr Renee White: Like it's just one of those things where. You just wanna take some time for yourself to work through it and it's absolutely beautiful. Thank you again for coming on the podcast Fleur, it's been amazing.

[00:56:22] Fleur Chambers: Oh, it's been my pleasure to connect with you again. Thanks for having me.

[00:56:26]

[00:56:26] Dr Renee White: Alright everyone.[00:56:30]

[00:56:31] Dr Renee White: If you loved this episode, please hit the subscribe button and leave a review. If you know someone out there who would also love to listen to this episode, please hit the share button so they can benefit from it as well. You've just listened to another episode of The Science of Motherhood proudly presented by Fill Your Cup, Australia's first doula village.

[00:56:55] Dr Renee White: Head to our website ifillyourcup.com to learn more [00:57:00] about our birth and postpartum doula offerings where every mother we pledge to be the steady hand that guides you back to yourself. Ensuring you feel nurtured, informed, and empowered so you can fully embrace the joy of motherhood with confidence. Until next time, bye.