The Instructor Podcast with Terry Cook talking.

With leaders, innovators, experts and game changers.

About what drives them.

Welcome to the Instructor Podcast Green Room Edition.

And this is show number 50, which is quite impressive over four years when we're doing monthly shows, but yes, show number 50.

So thank you for joining us.

As always.

I am your mediocre host, Terry Cook.

I'm delighted to be here.

I'm even more delighted that you're here, but you'll be delighted.

It's not just me, because I am joined by the man from the ditc, Chris Benstad.

What does DITC stand for, Chris?

Driving Instructor and Trainers Collective.

Excellent.

We are also joined by Ollie Taylor from thc.

What does THC stand for?

Ollie?

Try that again.

Thc.

The Honest Truth.

Yeah, you may have been on mute, but I said C rather than T, so I've bugged it up already.

And we're also joined by Tom Stenson.

So completing the acronyms, Tom is from the njc and that stands for adi.

Njc?

No, the National Joint Council.

There we go.

Yes.

And also because I feel slightly mean because I talked to Mikhail earlier, also drive up training and bright coaching from Tom.

But today we're going to be talking about changes to the industry because we have been going for four years doing this and want to talk about some of the changes to the industry over the last four years and what we've seen.

But before we get into that, I want to say a little thank you.

So please indulge me while I thank the following people.

Bob Martin, Sarah Baldock, Graham Hooper, Ian Brett, Gareth Marchant, Richard Spears, Lee Brooks, James Comely, Dan Hill, Emma Cottington, James Lockhurst, Richard Borges, Phil Cowley, Stuart Lockery, Tom STENSON, Laura Morris, Dr.

Liz Box, now Ollie Taylor, and indeed Chris Benstead, all of whom have been guests on the Green Room over the last four years.

And in particular, obviously, Chris Bentsto has been the most reoccurring.

I didn't count how many, but you've been on most of them.

Chris, has this improved or worsened your life, do you think?

I.

I love it.

I just, you know, I'm waiting for you to figure out how you end up getting rid of me, because that's when it all goes horribly wrong.

I just keep turning up.

Well, people are surprised.

Subscribe to the podcast will find that out on the 4th of May.

So there you go.

Um, but I did want to read one thing out because I got a lovely message today from Rachel Butler, who asked me to read this out on the show.

Cite yourself.

Indulgent, whatever.

Done 50 episodes.

Congrats on your milestone episode, Terry.

Keep raising those standards and thanks for all you do for the industry from the intelligent instructor team.

There you go, love.

Little message from Rachel Butler.

But, yes, as I said today, we're going to be talking about changes, but before we get into that, there's been a couple of changes already that we're going to talk about in the news.

So, first up, the DVSA have decided to trial some changes to the driving test.

So those changes are fewer stops during the driving test, reduced number of controlled stops.

So previously it was one in three tests out of the control stop.

Now it's one in seven, or it will be one in seven and there will be longer sat nav routes, potentially the full length of the test.

Now, I am going to read out just which test centres it are for anyone that isn't aware.

So, Avonmouth, Bishop, Briggs, Bolton, Cambridge, Cardiff, Dudley, Halifax, Hendon, Hereford, Hornchurch.

Don't know how to pronounce this.

I'm going with Isleworth, Maidstone, Middlesbrough, Musselburgh, Norris, Green, Norwich, Nottingham, Oxford, Portsmouth and Wakefield.

And there'll be up to four examiners from each set's test centre trialing this new test.

So, Chris, as the most recurring member of this.

This green room, what are your thoughts on this trial?

I got on my soapbox about this one earlier, preparing for this.

I want to know the real reason that they're looking at doing this, because I'm being a little bit of a cynic.

If one of the common reasons for failure is being stopped at the side of the road and then moving off safely and you reduce that by 25%, does that not mean that we're going to, A, increase the pass rate and B, potentially reduce driving standards?

So that's my big concern.

So if we're losing one of the four stops, so one of the normal stops, and if that is a common issue that comes up, you know, surely that should be checked more, not less.

If it's an issue, that's the one that gives me concern.

More sat nav.

Not bothered.

I think that's probably a good thing because examiner instructions can vary between examiners, so there's a bit of an inconsistency problem there.

That can be good and bad.

But if we have, you know, an equal playing field of sat nav voice and sat nav instruction all the time, there's a standardization.

That's a good thing.

I like standardization across test centres.

And then still you'll have examiners stepping in if we've got misleading information and that kind of thing, that's great.

I stopped teaching emergency stops as a thing when I stopped teaching Hill starts as a thing a long time back still taught stopping.

But emergency stopping is stopping quickly.

It's the same as stopping slowly.

You just do it faster.

So I've never really understood this kind of fake emergency stop procedure thing that we have to do on the test.

And I've never been a fan of it.

I appreciate that.

It's what do you do after the emergency of the looking and everything else?

But that's part of generic driving.

It's not just when someone waves their hand in front of your face.

So I'm feeling cynical.

I know that is a recurring theme on the Green Room, but I.

I have concerns about.

About the.

The impact of it and the reason for doing it.

I would.

I would like to.

We've said this before.

I'd like better information from the dvsa, as in what they expect the outcome to be.

And I think that that should be something going forward, that when the DVSA do anything, they tell us their predicted outcome and then after a while they tell us whether they achieved it, didn't achieve it, whether it was different from what they thought it would be.

I think that would be really positive.

Moving forwards.

Yeah, that, that's where I sit on.

That one is one of those times where really annoyingly, I agree with every word you've said and I hate that, but I am going to chip in with two bits.

So just on the emergency slash controlled stop.

The only thing I would chip in with that is that I make sure I explain what's going to happen on test because that's where it's fabricated completely.

So as much very similar to you.

I don't necessarily teach it that way, but I make sure they're aware of it.

And then just on the sat nav, you touched on this as well.

But just to expand it slightly, this past year I've been in a lot better position.

Position with my back.

So I've been a lot more comfortable getting in and sitting on tests.

And I've sat in like over the past sort of 12 to 18 months, almost all of them.

And I've noticed that one of the common things my students do struggle with, like you touched on, is the.

The examiner directions from some of the examiners in how quiet they are when they say it sometimes.

And you get the tune going.

Say that again, say that again.

And I'm thinking, yeah, you're not making this Easy.

So I actually think that the sat nav will help with that and I hope it'll help with that.

But yeah, agree with everything you've said.

So I'm going to move over to, I mean technically I could class myself as the NJC representative, but I'm going to come over to the actual NJC representative, my Mr.

Tom Stenson.

Have you got anything to add on this or a different spin?

No, I, again, I agree with Chris.

I will try and put a more positive spin on it.

I think it's good that something is being done, but I don't know whether it's the best thing that's being done.

And as Chris has just kind of said, I think time will tell on what the perhaps ulterior motives are and what actually comes from it.

I'd like to think it's a positive, but I'll keep open to either side of what might happen.

I feel like we may all have the same opinion on this, but I'm going to ask anyway.

Ollie, from someone that's maybe not directly a driving instructor.

I just wonder if you've got a different thought on this.

Yes, slightly.

While I don't disagree with, with what Chris says, I'm all for extraordinary change because if we always do what we've always done, we're always going to get the same results.

So I think it's a positive that the DDSA are looking to change and they are looking at, you know, what options are there to change, what things do they want to look at now part of me thinks are the things they're looking at the most appropriate.

And again, having never been a driving instructor and having sat my driving test 11 billion years ago, um, I'm probably somewhat out of touch with, with driving tests themselves.

But really what a driving test for me should be thinking about it looking at in from the outside is actually real world, is actually putting them into real world situations.

Why doesn't the driving test include drive going through a drive through of a fast food outlet?

Why didn't it include driving around a retail park five times looking for a parking space and finding this world's smallest parking space to park it and get them to do that?

So I know that's very slightly tongue in cheek, but actually the, the driving test for me, the driving test only tells, it tells a new driver they look good enough at that time on that day to pass a minimum DVSA standard.

That's what the driving test is about.

And that's something that I think is, is, is something that people are certainly, you know, I speak to young people as well and you know, they're going, you can see them kind of starting that form, that penny dropping into place, that when they, when they get that practical test get in their hand, that doesn't mean they know everything about driving.

That means they're just beginning to learn about driving because they haven't got the likes of yourself and other instructors sat next to them as their voice of reason, telling them to slow down that car in front of us, to slow down a lot quicker than we have.

You might want to be thinking about a little bit more harsher braking down rather than getting too close to the back end.

So I think change for change sake is wrong.

But change for the good is a good thing.

And actually looking at what can be changed, what can be improved has to be a good thing so long as it's done in the right way.

I think, like I say, just changing things for change sake is never going to do anybody any good.

But changing things for good because change is needed, that has to be a good thing in anybody's book.

I think the one that worries me and Chris alluded to this as well is that taking one of the stops away and forget the test and potentially increase the pass rate.

And I think you said this as well, Chris, it's making it more risky on the road.

Like you said, one of the most common fails and like we're giving them or giving them a 25% more chance of getting through.

So, yeah, not overly fond of that one, but I like the variance in answers there considering I thought we might all just say the same thing, but I also just think almost have to just see what happens.

It's one of those in it.

But there is some, some other news which came out as a recording yesterday, I think it was.

And I've got this in my notes titled as Heidi kicks off.

So the Secretary of State for Transport, Heidi Alexander, announced a fresh package of measured measures aimed at tackling the chronic backlog in driving test availability.

Basically turn around and said the DVC is crap, you need to get your ass in gear.

And yeah, they've decided to fast track launch for their planned consultation so that all that talking they're going to do faster apparently incentivized additional testing, which I'm presuming means overtime doubling our permanent training capacity for new driving examiners.

We'll see because I'm pretty sure they've been trying to increase that for a while.

We know.

Look.

And a call for volunteers for those currently in other Roles, but qualified to examine, to carry out practical driving tests.

The one thing I do like about this, before I hand over to you guys, is it feels like, I think it was last year when they brought all the cardholders in to do all the testing, but they had no plan after that.

It was just, here's a short term plan and then we'll see what happens.

It feels like we're the government kicking ass a bit here about it.

They brought in the short term plan and at least have an idea of something else long term.

You know, we're going to use this temporary measure to get other things in place.

None of it's radical.

So yeah.

Tom, what are your thoughts on this?

Personally, I've got a few concerns again because of potentially the situation we had last year when all warrant card holders went on to be delivering tests and that caused issues for PDIs and ADIs.

Although I think from the conversations I've had with other examiners, they were a little bit shocked last year that they were only given sort of six months to do it.

If they were going to take people away from those roles, why didn't they, like you've just said, Terry, why didn't they think ahead and go, actually, let's really make a dent in this and let's take them off for 12 months and go and get them to do a really good job.

So I think they sort of tickled with the feather a little bit, but it didn't really do too much other than cause issues for PDIs and ADIs and those wanting to get back onto audit and stuff like that.

So the bit there that sort of highlights to me is whether that's going to have another knock on effect and I think only time will tell.

Again, from what we've said earlier, I like the fact that something is being done, whether it's the right thing.

I can't really give you that answer.

I'm afraid Ollie will.

Ollie will give us a really good answer.

But I like, as you said, something's being done.

It doesn't feel like anything has been done for 12 months.

You know, they come out with a seven point plan which just felt like a to do list, the top of the to do list being right to do list.

You know, at least there's some sort of a plan here, even if it's been brought about by someone else.

But you mentioned Ollie, and Ollie had dots a box on two, two months ago and we spoke a little bit about it then and I asked her opinion as, as an, an outsider, if you like on the testing situation overall.

And she had a few choice words about it that weren't super pleasant.

So I suppose my question to you, and I use the term outsider politely as the outsider, the whole kind of testing scenario from you looking in, and also these changes, what, how do you view that?

It's a mess.

It's an absolute mess.

The whole, the whole thing, you know.

Yes, I obviously with the work that I do with driving structures, I do keep a watching eye on the news and things that are relevant to the industry and the whole thing around driving tests has something that has piqued my interest over the last 12 months or so.

And I know that I keep seeing news reports about the COVID backlog.

They can't use that excuse forever.

They're going to have to come up with another excuse in a minute because actually we are some.

I know there was Covid backlog, of course there was, and we're not talking about COVID here, but that did cause no end of problems.

The one thing that really interests me, and I heard about it in the news just in the last 24 hours or so, are these bots.

If the DBSA want to start sorting out test availability, they want to start focusing on looking at these block programs that are basically block booking tests.

They want to get, they want to get some forensic digital investigator in and actually look at ways in which they can, they can shut these things down at source as quickly as possible.

Because from what I'm reading from things I'm reading is that actually that is a significant part of the problem is that these tests are being block booked by bots and people are then reselling them.

And there are people, like, I've heard stories of people traveling, you know, two, 300 miles to a test center hundreds of miles away from where they live and paying ridiculous amounts of money to third parties and people who are seeing an opportunity to make money out, which is completely wrong.

And anybody who, for me, with my background, as you, every on the, every on the call will know my background.

Anybody who pitches up for a test under those circumstances, who has got a test down that route should just be turned away.

Just turn them away.

Because actually they've, what they've done is they, they've in effect is they, they've caused, they've added to the problem, not the solution.

So bringing in more examiners, great.

More incentives from examiners doing more tests, great.

Yeah, all these things are great.

But the trouble is we've heard it all before.

Exactly as you said, Chris, we heard all this 12, 18 months ago and again, listening to the news in the last 24 hours, actually, the average wait for a test time is going up, up.

It's not going down, it's going up.

Which means whatever they put into place isn't working.

We'll scrub it, scrub that.

Don't beat a dead horse.

There's no point, because I ain't going to get up and go, but actually look at it from the ground up.

So these new solutions, these new proposals they're making, I think are very interesting, but as an outsider, I'm very skeptical as to how they're going to work.

Very skeptical.

And actually, in 12 months time, are you going to be sat here having exactly the same conversation?

Because nothing much has really changed.

You know, it's all very well, looking at a problem and picking bits of the solution out.

Well, actually, what's the root of the problem?

Go to the root of the problem.

And actually if you have to go from the ground up.

Go from the ground up.

Yes.

If you admit you've got to just be honest and admit you got it completely wrong.

You got it completely wrong and you're going to put something that's completely radical into place.

Try something radical.

You know, don't be afraid to try things that are radical.

Don't just keep flogging that poor old dead horse because he ain't going to be getting up and pulling soon, that's for sure.

You think that we're at a tipping point now where there are some parts of the country where you can't book a test.

I'm in a part of country where we can luckily get one sort of five to six months away.

You know, we can book one, we just.

It's six months away, but some you can't book at all.

So do you think, like you mentioned, doing it from the ground up and doing something radical?

We're almost at the point where we can just say, right, no more tests.

We have the month of May where no one can book a test.

And then during that month, that's where we sort you out.

Do you reckon we're almost at that point?

I think it's heading.

Yeah, I do.

I genuinely think the price is heading to the point where they're going to have to do something like that.

They're going to have their hand forced.

Now the government have stepped in and I know the government had given the DVSA a bit of a kicking in the media in the last 24 hours.

Is that going to make a difference?

Yeah.

Having worked for the government for 30 years.

I'd be surprised, I really would.

There'll be all sorts of bluster and all sorts of we're going to do this, we're going to do that, we're going to do the other.

But how much of that will actually come to fruition and make a positive difference in the industry?

We come back in 12 months to record the, the green room number or maths, potentially number 62, but we'll see.

Where's the waiting list going to be at?

What's the queue going to be like?

One of the changes that we've been promised but it hasn't happened yet and you know, it keeps being waved around is that they're going to extend the length of the waiting list so at the moment it's at 24 weeks.

I believe I'm right Zane.

Previously it was 18 weeks and it got extended from there.

I have said since COVID all the way through there, well, firstly we should have moved the test to the age of 18.

That would have solved the problem.

It wouldn't have been a problem there in the first place and I'm going to keep telling people that I was saying that because it really paid me off that they wouldn't listen, it would have sold, there wouldn't be a backlog, there wouldn't be a problem, it would have solved it and we'd have improved road safety.

What are we, what more do we need than that?

But anyway, I've done that one so the other thing we've all we've all been saying since then is we do not know how long this queue is because it's going down and round the corner because you could only book as long as the waiting list was.

The DVSA were championing the fact that they had solved this problem because they'd reduced it down from a 24 week issue in some areas and mine is one of those areas where you cannot get tests for love nor money that they'd reduced it down to, their target was eight weeks I believe and they got it down to 16 in a lot of areas of the country, but not mine and it's now gone back up to 21.3.

I think you all know I'm not good with numbers but I'm hoping those are right.

So.

So you know they did that by getting the office staff, the warrant cardholders that weren't on the front line to come out and do the frontline stuff and they were shouting about how well they'd done that once they'd put them back in the office and they've forced their own hand now to bring them back out because it's the only bloody solution they've got that's proven to have done something and they've let that slip away again.

Problem is, by putting that front.

The frontline staff on the.

By putting the frontline staff, you know, back out.

Sorry, the back office staff on the front line again, it says we don't need them doing the jobs that they're doing.

So they won't do it for longer than six months because otherwise we're going to start going, hang on a minute, we could cull all of those.

And actually things did suffer.

I know full well that Tom would have had the same issues, the other associations, the same issues where you couldn't communicate as well as you did before.

And we were seeing that when we were having inquiries and trying to talk to people, you couldn't get hold of the people you needed because they're out doing tests.

And part two, two and part three, issues that are not being solved and in some ways are even more important because there's a time limit on those tests because your part one certificate only lasts for two years.

So PDIs are really suffering, training providers are suffering and misleading people.

And, you know, there's a massive problem there that we haven't.

Hasn't come to fruition yet because, you know, especially the big nationals are selling that product, promising tests that aren't available, so that they're taking, we'll call it three grand from people as a ballpark figure, and they're then unable to actually deliver things.

But it's worded in a way that is DVSA's problem, not theirs.

At some point that's going to bite someone in the backside.

So, you know, they've been forced into this situation of putting back out there again.

They haven't actually put them back out there again, not like they did before, because before you didn't necessarily get a choice.

Now, if you listen to that wording that you read out, Terry, it's voluntary.

They're pushing overtime money.

So they're paying the warrant card holders that are doing different jobs more money and they're not paying the examiners more money.

What's going to happen?

I'd be buggering off if I was an examiner saying, screw you.

I've been working my backside off trying to help with this problem and I have, you know, you're not appreciating it.

And every instructor I talk to says, pay them more money.

So it's you know, it's that, that is the, you know, it's the big issue from that perspective.

And then to touch on what Ollie said, I don't think bots are bots.

I think that is misleading government wording and the, the, you know, newspapers and such are picking up on it.

Lots of instructors that I know are getting people getting in touch saying, can we use your details to log onto the obs so that we can book lots of stuff that it's human beings.

They're not.

I don't believe that they are automated in the same way because a lot of those bots aren't working.

So it's human beings flogging stuff.

Biggest issue is there's no law against it.

It's perfectly acceptable.

And it's commercialism and we all support commercialism because that's what we do.

We don't necessarily think it's morally correct, but until it's commercially, you know, it's.

Until it's illegal, nothing will happen.

And they have got people in looking at IP addresses and trying to block people out.

That's how they stopped the bots.

But it's human beings selling their souls.

That's the problem that we've got.

That's human beings.

And I think as a solution, and then I'll get off the other site box as a solution, I would say an AI approach to testing is what we need.

As always, we know the problem is the current booking system doesn't allow it.

And to get one in place is going to take, they're saying, a year.

I'm saying it's going to be 2 to 3 to have a decent system in place.

If we get a system, it won't be fit for purpose for very long.

And any commercial body that is tendering for that with the government is going to give them a minimum system because then they can charge them again next time.

So we're against, you know, everything's against us.

But if an AI system said if your pupil failed the driving test for an unfortunate serious fault, they can retake the test pretty much straight away.

If your pupil got 8 to 12 faults, they're going to have to wait a certain amount of time.

If they got mega faults, they have to go away for six weeks, eight weeks before they're allowed to come back and take it again.

And we used AI to do that.

So that it is a system that balances the books, will have an improved pass rate, we'll have safer roads, because it'd be pushing people into more training where they need it and the risk to us as instructors is instructors will be held to account because if your pass rate isn't as good potentially that's one of the factors that means your pupils won't be able to get tests.

That's the way forwards.

I agree with myself, I got a thumbs up on the screen so that's what we need but we haven't got the right people in the jobs at the DVSA.

And the move, last point, the move from the people from the back office to the front line means these meetings that I know, you know Tom and the NJC have got booked, I've got booked with, with them.

We had a, had a really good meeting the other day with Loveday and her team.

They're all those things are going to be pushed back because they are not going to be there to have the meeting to make the decisions and do the consult, consultating whatever the word is quickly that they were promising they're not going to be there to do it.

So we're going to end up with less action, less change and it's not going to do anything.

So yes, to answer your question in 12 months we're going to be sat here having the same bloody conversation.

I mean you make some really good points but the thing that I'm going to pick up on is the megafaults.

I love that phrase, megafaults.

I've heard of majors and minors but I've not heard megafaults for that.

I'm using that going forward quantities.

As I said that I suddenly thought maybe that chaplet described me as the 13 year old in the room playing with the adults.

Maybe he had a point.

The fact that that's what I take away from that.

Anyway, we have just been joined by Bob Martin but Bob, I'm going to move swiftly past you because I'm fed up on this topic now.

I don't think we need to talk about any more miserable stuff.

So he said I'm going to give people a chance to introduce themselves, set the table.

Chris, you're familiar with this so we'll start with you.

Do you want to take a moment to let's say br tell people who you are and what you offer?

Run out of words.

I am Chris Benstead and I am co founder of the ditc, the Driving Instructor and Trainers collective signposting platform for the driving instructor industry.

I am a theory specialist and I run theory test explained.

So if anyone wants theory support for their pupils or for them then they are welcome to get in touch, Marne has joined us.

Do you want to take a moment to tell people who you are, what you have to offer and if you've got any acronyms.

Was that addressed to me there, Terry?

I missed Swift briefly.

Who are you?

Where can we find you?

Well, according to Mr.

Benstead, I used to be a big name in the industry.

I will never let you forget that, Chris.

I love it.

Funny.

As funny as my name is.

Bob Morton, trainer of trainers, audit registered, if that still is a thing.

Specialize really in coaching and helping people get more out of their everyday life.

And pdiadi.com what does PDIADI stand for?

Quality.

Haha.

There you go.

I'll take that.

I like that answer.

Mr.

Stenson, do you want to take a moment to tell people who you are and what you have to offer?

I don't know if I have a lot to offer, Terry.

So I'm Tom Stenson, head of training for the ADI NJC and co founder of Drive Up Training.

And recently I have joined Stuart Lockery at Bright Coaching.

What role have you got?

Bright Coaching?

Managing director.

Doesn't that sound great?

I had to buy that off ebay though.

So what is it?

Owner or co owner?

Co founder, Drive Up Training, Managing director at Bright and head of training at the njc.

Yeah, they're all just letters though, aren't they?

But he's nothing to offer apparently.

Ollie Taylor.

Who are you and what do you offer?

Terry, I was just wondering.

I'd love to see Tom's business card.

It's probably about that long.

It'll never fit in your wallet.

Ollie Taylor.

I think everybody knows me.

Ollie Taylor, ex top 14 years on traffic policing.

Retired in 2023 and came back into the world of road safety.

Spent a lot of latter part of my career working in road safety in a number of guises and picked up or agreed to come back and head up.

In fact, not pick up, but head up.

The honest truth.

Rotate to campaign on behalf of First Car Limited.

And Bob, I would really like a chat with you at some point or.

It wasn't me, officer.

Sorry.

It wasn't me.

A big boy did it and ran away.

Yeah.

Never.

Yeah, I was gonna say the big boy did, yes.

Fat bloke in the pub told me.

Donna, the pub don't know his name.

The instructor podcast.

A new networking place for all people.

Tom, let's take a moment to look at the thing I want to talk about today because as we said at The Start, the 50th episode of the Green Room is now this we're also in April, which is the anniversary of the instructor podcast launching, and it's four years old and 50 episodes in for the green room.

So I wanted to talk about changes, about the changes over the last four years.

And, Tom, you're the first one that's going to have to leave tonight, so we're going to start with you.

What have you noticed over the last four years?

And again, I'm leaving this as open as you deem appropriate.

What changes have you seen in the last four years?

I apologize, but I was challenged that I had to mention this.

So one of the big changes was obviously you winning a great award this year for the hard work that you do.

That was Rachel's fault.

She told me I had to do it.

So I think that was a good change, a positive change.

Actually.

One of the changes I think is really good.

Other than, obviously, the stuff that Ollie does with the honest truth, I think that's a great thing.

It actually goes along with sort of what Bob's doing, with what Kev and Neil are doing and what Stuart's done at Bright Coaching, and that's bringing more sort of formal qualifications into our industry as well, which I think has been something that should have happened a long time ago.

I know that the other company that I now can't remember did a lot of work, try coaching apologies for them.

I know they did a huge amount of work and they were sort of the.

Almost the pioneers, I suppose, to a certain degree in that.

And it links to what we were saying earlier, where I think change is good and I think if more people are open to new ideas and thinking outside the car or outside the box, I think those are good things for the industry and I hope that more of it comes about.

You know, I hope more people kind of get into that.

I hope more people recognise that qualifying as an ADI is really only the first step on the ladder and there are far more steps to go above it.

So that, for me is probably one of the biggest changes that I think is a positive for us.

I'm going to ask this question to you, Tom, and I fully appreciate there are two people on this screen now that offer formal qualifications.

So I may not be asking the best question here, but I think it's great, I genuinely do.

Especially the fact that there are options out there and it's an opportunity for instructors to take this qualification.

In fact, when I had, I think it was Dr.

Box on the previous Green Room, I asked her, so how great is it that we have these options?

Are we running the risk of there being too many?

I don't think there is the minute, but there's been a few pop up recently.

I think Bright came up first and there were yours, Bob, and then there were Kevin Traces.

I think I've done two, if I'm rightly the two different qualifications, or maybe a third, actually, with the confident drivers.

I can't remember now, but that's kind of getting to my point that are we running the risk of if people keep doing it, because I hear stuff in the pipelines about these qualifications that we're going to saturate the market a little bit and run the risk of.

Just jumping on that one.

Terry, when was the last time you went into a pub and went, there's too many bloody beers here, I'm not going to have one.

So it works?

Yeah.

I mean, for me, yeah.

I don't like choice.

This is my problem.

You give me six beers, I'm struggling.

You give me two, I'm happy.

I think as long as the choices that are available are quality and I think they are currently.

No.

I'm going to sound like an ass when I say this, but as you interrupted me, that was my final point.

Are we running the risk of quantity over quality?

I think considering as well there's what, 43,000 ADIs on the register, I'd love it if 43,000 ADIs all had additional qualifications.

Is that going to happen?

No, I've got more chance of winning the lottery.

But, you know, we, we can hope for it and as Bob's mentioned there, you know, the quality I think is important.

Others may come in that may be better and, you know, as a business owner, I don't want that.

But at the same time, for somebody who's in the industry, I do if somebody could come in with the best qualification and it improves road safety and it improves driving instructors, I'd.

I'd back that.

I think the biggest issue is knowing where the quality is and we're not there yet.

We haven't figured out how to do that because there's not enough need for it.

We're getting there, though.

Absolutely getting there.

And sadly, the entry training, entry level training, we're waiting until people are qualified in most cases and I accept that, you know, yourself and all the people mentioned will happily take it a PDI on for the training, but it doesn't quite work that way because they're not doing the job yet.

So having, you know, having better training at the entry point is really the key to us having Beneficial qualifications.

Because otherwise what you're really offering is a retraining process that shouldn't be needed.

We want a betterment process.

That's a great point, Chris, but it's the age old thing, isn't it?

Trying to, trying to help the poor unfortunate PDIs rather who have been sold the dream and are living the nightmare.

We cannot get at them early enough to be able to do it because there's no vehicle to do that.

And I think we owe a debt of gratitude to try coaching for opening the door with a DVSA and having their course accredited.

Unfortunately it wasn't for long enough, but.

So the DVSA are open to that kind of thing.

Hopefully there'll be some kind of standard applied to it to be able to gain entry to that.

But you know, are we then in the realms of audit and what that should be?

You know, it's.

I've just caught the last, the last part of what you were talking about earlier, Chris, and you're absolutely right, 100%.

But you know, when not held accountable, training organizations are not held accountable for what they sell.

The only person who's responsible for the training that happens is the pdi.

What a bloody ridiculous situation that is, you know, and they'll say, oh, you should go with this trail.

He's the best.

How many trailers you had?

Well, just this one.

Well do you know.

So we need some way of measuring.

So it's difficult, isn't it difficult when we, we rely on word of mouth, people saying, well I did this, this qualification, this is what it brought me and I think it's good value and then you can maybe, you know, on sell some more.

But it's a tricky one for sure.

That's why people have to stay in the industry for so long to have that reputation.

Yeah, I just refuse to retire.

The thing I want to chip in with here is the qualifications specifically.

One of my concerns around the industry at the minute is there's that much out there that people are just jumping from one thing to the next.

And this is why I think that these qualifications are really, really good.

Because you can't jump from one for the next.

To get the qualification, you have to do the work.

And I think that that is my biggest selling point for a qualification.

It's making people do the work.

Whereas whether it's podcasts or Facebook lives or YouTube channels or TikToks or all the other nonsense that's out, I shouldn't say that I'm doing one or all the other quality that's out there.

I think the people are too quick to go over that.

What's next?

I've watched that, what's next.

So I think that's my big thing and I think the last point I'll make on this actually just thinking back to a few years ago when I had Dan Hill on the show, we were talking about the different diary management apps and stuff.

It's really good point that Dan made saying that when Gorodi came in that made him up his game with my drive time and I think that's the thing.

So what we want is whether it's qualification or anything, what the next thing along to be better or different, to make other people reflect.

So no, I think that's a great shout but I do want to.

Sorry Bob, I'll let you come back in a second but I want to come back on the Tom because Tom needs to, to disappear at some point.

So I want to get the next question to Tom which is what have you changed your mind about?

Because you told us about one of the changes you've seen but what have you personally changed your mind about in the last few years?

Quite a lot.

However, I suppose one that stands out for me was when I did my training and I still hear lots of trainers talk about this now and instructors and it's about skill acquisition and when people are being trained.

I was trained that, you know, you've got to get a pupil to be almost independent at one skill before you move on to the next.

But actually there's lots of research that says that that's a load of rubbish and the best thing to do is get them to a point where they can understand it.

And now what we need to do is challenge and randomize it because instead of focusing on short term performance we want to look for long term learning.

And that for me when I kind of found that out a few years ago and started to put it into practice, it was a perfect light bulb moment for me.

But yet when I chat to some people still now they go, no, you gotta, you've got, they've gotta be independent before you move to the next thing.

And yeah, I think that for me is probably one of the biggest ones that stood out over the last few years that's made a change for me not in just how I deliver lessons but how I now deliver my training as well.

And I can see the benefits of it even on a short term level.

I think while ever we're on topic based training we're always going to have this issue.

We Want to finish that topic before we move to this one.

So if we just switch to skills, which is what the standards check is now supposedly measuring.

I think that's a great point and just like for me personally it makes me laugh the way you described that because I used to be a shit instructor and part of the reason I was a crap instructor was because that's what I did.

I didn't make them get all the way up so they were perfect before you go on to the next thing.

And you know, like you said, almost that randomization of that aspect of worked really well and I used to think I was a bad.

And I was because I wasn't doing the instructing, I was doing, you know, whatever you want to call it, coaching, client learning, whatever.

So yeah, I think that's a, that's a great shout.

But is there anything else change wise that you want to mention or anything else you want to come back on before we let you disappear?

I think this I'll end on a negative, I'm afraid.

But I think I've found over the last few years, and this could be because of the waiting times and things that have been affecting PDIs and ADIs and the fact that people haven't been able to get onto audit, I do find that driving instructors have become a little bit more mony about stuff is maybe the polite term.

Okay, there you go, Bob.

And you know, perhaps I'm just biased because I see it a little bit more and you know, I just find we need to start looking for more positives in stuff.

We don't live in a perfect world as much as I'd like to think we do.

And there's always going to be two sides to the coin.

Social media has a big effect on this and although it is fantastic, it can be a right pain in the backside as well, as you're well aware, Terry, you and your childish behaviors.

So yeah, I mean that's kind of one of the changes that I think is there.

But I don't know whether it's just me.

I'd like to see more positivity from driving instructors.

Whether it will happen, I don't know.

Perhaps it's on the seven point list.

It might be dvsa, I don't know.

We've got the six point, six point check, haven't we?

And now we've got the seven point list.

Bob, do you want to touch on that?

On that negativity, that morning aspect?

Exactly what I had written down here.

It's the, I don't know if it's a big change.

And, you know, I was thinking about it and thinking just like Tom was, and I was thinking, is it because I'm getting old and I'm becoming less tolerant of morning minis?

But I don't.

One of you should have done that.

One of you should have done that.

But no, it's not.

We've become incredibly negative and pondering these things while contemplating them in navel, you know, it all, all this monstrous negativity started around Brexit, didn't it, on Facebook.

And it's.

You know, they've had the same thing in the States with politics and we.

We become polarized and it's just.

Everybody just wants to shout about a lot of stuff and, you know, we, we never.

What we need to do is to switch, instead of mourning our tits off at the test center, start thinking about bloody solutions.

Well, I'll tell you what the solution is, and it's dead simple.

I was overjoyed the other day to hear the chairman of the Transport Committee say, well, our problem is examiner retention.

You know, that's what the issue is.

I was like, oh, my God.

Yeah, just pay them more and stop treating them like shit and they'll stay put.

So what can we do about that?

Well, instead of mourning at the test center and going on Facebook like a teenage girl and whining all night about that right to your mp, things will change.

Because the DVSA can't change anything, because they're not really in charge of anything.

They're just admitted to the register.

So if you want things to happen, what needs to happen is an MP needs to stand up in the house and go, something must be done.

That's when things change.

So if every L driver who was waiting for a test, and we all know them, don't we?

If every L driver wrote to their MP and got in their ribs, and if every instructor wrote to their MP and got in their ribs, they'd be looking at that and going, oh, hey, 40,000 letters from ADI and another 600,000 emails from.

They'd be swamped with it.

And they go, Christ, we need to do something about this.

So that's our solution.

So instead of whining about it, so the next time you're in the test center, you do that.

So tick.

That's a big tick for you.

But when you hear somebody mourning about it, just go, can I just stop you?

Do you know what we could do about that?

Get all your learners to write to their mp.

And you write to your MP and stop whining.

Now can we talk about something that's a bit more interesting?

It's one of the things I'm always careful of and I'm guilty of this as anyone, but mourning, about people mourning.

And I appreciate we kind of doing that now, and I do see the irony, but I've seen.

This year, I have barely been on social media.

I go on and I post something coming away because I'm finding it depressing and I'm feeling genuinely, if I'm being honest, I'm feeling attacked a lot when I go on there, you know, with a post you see from.

From other trainers and whatnot, basically saying, if you're not doing this, you're shit.

And you think, hold on, I did that once three years ago.

That must mean I'm crap, You know, and talking about how if you're not X, Y and Z, then you must be useless.

And so I agree with that.

But you know what, Ollie?

What are your thoughts on negativity and social media?

Because I know you've had instances in the past where you've spoke about cyclists and stuff like that.

How do you deal with it?

When I had people demanding, I got sacked because I dared suggest that pedal cyclists might want to make themselves a bit more visible in the hours of darkness.

Yes, social media, what an interesting one.

Now, interestingly, I have come off all but come off social media, and I found social media phenomenally toxic.

It is a very, very toxic platform.

It is used in an awful lot of cases by armchair experts who are keyboard warriors who like nothing more than to moan.

Because we're British and that's what we do.

We like a good moan as Brits.

That's what we do.

Let's be fair, we never come up with solutions.

Bob, I totally.

I could.

I was sitting there thinking, oh, Bob, you said, singing the same song as I am, don't be part of the problem, be part of the solution.

If you want to.

If you want to rant and rave on social media about a problem, we'll suggest a solution.

Don't just sit there and ran to rave in the hope that people will.

Will like or will react to your post or, you know, or will suddenly get into a slagging match with you about something and you can then have a really good fist of cuts on social media without actually getting a black eye or a bloody lip.

Because let's be fair, that's before social media.

All it was was it was outside of a pub and somebody got a fat eye, somebody got a fat Lip, somebody got a bloody nose.

That was happening.

That was how these arguments went, went ahead.

But the problem we've got, and this leads me on into Terry, this leads me into changes.

You know, what have I seen change wise in the last four years?

And I've seen some really positive change.

I've seen some really negative change.

Negative.

I'm going to start with the negative.

I'm going to finish with the positive because I was about to finish on the positive.

So negatively, I've seen social media become this toxic platform and it's used by young people an awful lot.

Young people use social media to, to air their views on just about anything and everything, basically.

And they can do it with a certain amount of anonymity, basically.

And there's not really any recourse either.

All right, during this, during, apart from during the recent rioting we had where people were sent to prison for sharing a post that they'd had nothing to do with.

And that's a completely different topic and I think there are elements of that that the government got spectacularly wrong.

Spectacularly wrong.

But anyway, topic for another time, that's not for tonight.

So social media, Tom said it is a very much double edged sword.

It can be really, really useful if it's used in the correct way, but it can also be exceptionally damaging, really damaging both to individuals, to organizations, to companies, to groups.

Just somebody saying, not, not necessarily the wrong thing, but somebody saying something, a belief of theirs, an opinion of theirs that is taken out of context, that is taken.

And somebody feels it's, they have the right to, to, to be offended by a comment because everybody's got the right to be offended by everything in this day and age.

And it drives me insane, absolutely insane.

Because I think, Hang on a minute, you don't have to read that.

You don't have to watch that on the telly.

You don't have to listen to that podcast.

If you don't like it, turn it off, don't listen to it.

And then mankind moan for the rest of the day about it on social media, just turn it off.

It's not there to, we're not out of going out of our way to offend you because we have an opinion, we're allowed to have an opinion.

We live in a country of free speech.

Go and try living in some of these countries that don't have free speech, then you'll see how good we've got it here.

So don't try and stifle that.

Yes, if people are outwardly racist, sexist, Homophobic, misogynistic, all those things.

Totally agree that that needs to be clamped down on.

But people who've got a valid opinion about something, good or bad, positive or negative, they should be allowed a voice.

Don't then get into a slagging match with them just because your opinion differs.

So social media, I think, has got a big part to play in and this is one of the big changes I've seen since certainly towards the end of my days in policing and since I've left policing.

So that's.

That's one of the.

That's one of the big changes I've seen.

I'm going to.

I'm going to flip it on its head now and go to a positive change.

Let me interrupt just before I go on to positive, because we're going to be losing Tom in a moment.

We've got an adequate replacement.

Nothing.

But Tom, just while you go, a couple of things I want to mention because I'm in a slightly sentimental mood because of the.

The four year anniversary and because of 50, all that kind of stuff.

So first of all, when we think about changes, you know, we look at some of the changes this year, there's one that I think stands out, which is the launch of Drive.

Oh, God.

Drive Up Training, Driver training and also.

Yes, there we go, Support Driving School.

And I don't know, I see both of those.

I've said this before, I appreciate that, but I see both of those as a positive for the industry.

Regardless of what happens to them, I think that that's going to inspire and motivate people, I really do.

Whether they join one of our schools or somewhere else, I don't know.

I'm a.

I like what I'm seeing there.

I think it's a positive influence.

So another positive change for you.

And on a personal level, over the last four years, you've had a massive impact on me.

I think that a really, really positive.

Forget the industry, you've had a really positive impact on me.

So I want to take a moment to.

To thank you in a nice way.

Not a tongue in cheek, jokey way, a genuine way, having a positive impact.

Tom, I got really emotional.

Thank you very much.

Now bugger off and send my apologies to the gc.

I'm going to leave on that high.

Thank you very much, everybody.

And on that note, I'm going to move over to someone that's joined us, Emma Cottington.

So we all come back to your positive.

In a minute, Ollie, but I want to come to Emma and I want to ask you your thoughts on the negativity and mourning within the industry and if you can turn your thoughts into a moan about the mourning in the industry, bonus points.

I'm assuming I've missed everybody's moaning about the moaning.

Okay, well, I'm going to moan about the moaning as well, but I think it is Scouser.

Thanks, Chris.

You just popped up at the side.

It distracted me.

I think, I think the negativity, I think there's, there's comes to for me, the negativity.

No, start again.

Can you tell I've just come in from 11 hours of teaching.

The negativity for me does come from the DVSA at the minute.

I think that's where a lot of the negativity's stemming from.

That's where the conversations are coming from.

If we're seeing online forums, people talking about stuff, it tends to be typically around test waiting times or examiners or what are the DVSA doing.

And as far as I can see, I don't think there's a lot of negativity coming from anywhere else.

Most of the conversations are being stemmed around that sort of area.

For me.

Yeah, that is a still a negative thing.

It's increasingly difficult as an instructor who's still got pupils and PDIs and trying to just manage people's expectations, trying to manage and have those conversations.

And I've been an instructor for 15 years.

I know when a pupil is ready for their driving test, but trying to navigate when to tell them to book a test is near on impossible.

And because you don't know whether you're doing right or wrong, like that test gets booked and what if they're not ready?

Are they seriously going to be expected to now put that back another four months?

Like it's, it's, it's ridiculous.

And I think there's a lot of pressure on us and I think there's a lot of negativity coming from that and I think that's leading to a lot of instructors getting fed up.

We've got people, good instructors leaving the industry because they've just had enough.

And you were literally watching.

I mean, I said in one, I don't know, I don't think it was yesterday, I think it was on Tuesday and it was.

These are grown people in forums and it was like watching a five year old conversation.

But I know where that's coming from.

Like, yeah, them people might be grown children.

I'm probably a grown child most of the time myself, but I can see how they've got to that point because it's just coming from sheer frustration.

That's, that's my negative moaning.

Well, I appreciate you joining us tonight and we'll come back to you shortly because I appreciate you're on a slightly tighter, tighter time frame.

So I do appreciate you joining us, but I'm going to come back to Ollie.

I'll tell you what, I'm doing a good job of juggling this.

Going to come back to Ollie.

You've told us you're negative.

You said you're going to spin that round to a positive change.

Talk to me about your positive.

I am, Terry, but just before I do that, something that Emma's just said that, that, that I was going to mention in a slightly different context.

And it's really interesting that Emma mentions it in the context of driving instructors becoming up, if you like.

Now, another massive change I've seen.

And again, unfortunately, this is another negative.

I did want to mention it.

So I'm going to have two negatives and one good positive is the negative.

And I saw this in again, going back to the, the last couple of your.

The last 18 months or so of my, my policing career.

The current generation are a significant problem now in that in as much as, I mean, there are a lot of them who feel entitled.

They are.

I would class them as an entitled generation.

They've never had it so good.

In the main.

They've never.

They've never had it so good.

The other biggest problem they've had is that people have rarely said no to them.

So when you say no to somebody, they look at you aghast.

What do you mean no?

Well, I mean the opposite.

Yes.

It's really quite straightforward.

The answer is no.

And this is why the answer is no.

And I do wonder, picking up on Emma's point about actually when you have a pupil who is, who is desperate for a driving test and, you know, isn't ready.

Emma's been the driving instructor for 15 years.

Emma knows, as all the instructors on this, this particular podcast will know, you know your pupils better than anybody.

You know, if they're ready for test or not.

But actually that conversation to say you're not ready for your test is a really difficult conversation to have.

Not because it's difficult to say no, because anybody can say no.

It's the fact that actually the person on the receiving end of the no doesn't want to hear it.

And then, and then there's this awkward conversation, which it shouldn't be.

It shouldn't be an awkward conversation.

It should be a case of, no, you're not ready for your test.

These are the reasons why you will get there, I absolutely guarantee it.

But you're not ready at the moment.

But actually, because it then, it then develops into this, this, this really awkward situation for poor driving instructors because they've had the audacity to say no to Generation Z or whatever they're called currently.

Because these, this generation aren't being used to people saying no to them.

That's the part of the biggest, one of the biggest parts of the problem.

They're not used to that.

Sorry.

For that very reason.

Ollie, I'm a big fan of coaching contracts where we set out at the start of things.

Okay, here are some things that we might have to deal with along the way.

Let's, let's put some loose plans in place now.

And, and you're absolutely right, you know that that's a very difficult conversation to manage when somebody's either outraged or offended.

And my other half's just reminded me, Ricky Gervais has the best quote on that.

Just because you're offended doesn't mean you're right.

It's just, you know, and Bob, you're so right.

And, and I, I very much.

I started getting really frustrated with staff of mine when I finished, finished my career staff of mine that I would say no to, give them a very valid reason and they'd go running to Mum or Dad, you know, not physically, but they go running to the next level up.

Oh, you want me to get the Chief Inspector down here to speak to.

Well, they're not going to give you, you know, it's a hot fuzz moment.

Well, you want me to get the Superintendent to come down and speak to you.

The answer is no.

And this is my reasoning, this is why my answer is no.

And I had a number of occasions when I made operational decisions that people didn't like.

Well, you're not going to like every decision I made.

I'm not going to roll over and say yes because I want to keep you happy.

I'm going to say yes or no based on operational requirements at the end of the day or, you know, in your world, in the dry instructor world, on your readiness to pass the test.

I'm not going to say yes, you're ready just to keep you happy.

If I say no, there's a good reason for it and you might not be happy.

So there's this real.

There's a real problem with the current generation.

Not every single one of them, but there is this Real hardcore in the current generation.

I've dealt with a lot of young people over the years who have grown up in a world where everything's provided for them, everything's on a plate.

They haven't really had to go out and get anything and they've very rarely been said no to.

Yes, that is a generalization, but it is a broad generalization.

I think it manifests itself heavily when it comes to moving tests or canceling lessons.

And you know, the cancel a lesson and the instructor's a bit miffed, then the cancel another one, now the instructor is really annoyed, the cancel a third one, now the instructor wants to charge them.

And the pupil's like, well that's not fair.

Because it's not, is it?

Because you didn't last time.

But if we have this person, and I think it's especially important in light of what you're saying, Ollie, if we have this person involved in setting what the rules of engagement are, they're much less likely to deviate from the path that you've agreed at the very start.

And it's at the heart of every successful relationship, setting expectations.

You're absolutely right.

Every successful relationship has two sides to it and too many instructors are crap at communicating.

So that's great, right?

And we're all sat here and we're all trying to do the right job and everything else.

But consistently I get people get in touch because I'm quite good at writing a text message and you know, they'll say this has happened and at the end of it it's crap communication.

And that happens on both sides.

So I don't think it is just the pupil because we don't just teach 17, 18, 19 year old.

It looks both ways.

Involved in fallout with, you know, 40, 50, 60 year olds as well.

That has been down to bad communication and, and I, I, I actually want to, to pitch the other side of, of the positive of all of this, you know, bitching and complaining that we're seeing because I think there is an increase can be a good thing because sometimes change doesn't happen until it gets bad enough.

So people will stay in a job that they're not happy in because it's not bad enough to leave.

They had that.

There's not enough, enough of a push to get them there, which is why more people will hand in their notice on a Monday after they've been on holiday or you know, when, when there's bank holidays around, because they suddenly realize what they're missing.

I say that as someone who's off, off on holiday last week and this week has hurt.

So, you know, it.

I think actually we're seeing some real positives from that bitching and moaning.

And I think we see it and it's going on through frustration, through fear as well, because there's a lot of that happening.

But what we're also seeing are a number of key people who are ones that we mentioned earlier who are producing courses and producing structures and changing the way training's happening, who are actually giving up on the DVSA to some extent and saying, right, so that we'll do it ourselves.

And it doesn't take many of them.

You know, we all know how to smash a car windscreen with a penny.

You know, it just takes that one bit of impact in one place to actually have a big effect.

So I think there's some positive that could be there.

I've got a very long checkered past with Facebook.

I understand it quite well.

I see the people on it a lot.

And you know, as Terry will say, he'll walk away from a conversation on Facebook, I'll engage with it because I've got a sadistic sense of humor.

But I quite enjoy that, that change and seeing where it's coming from there is positive there as well.

We had Dan Hill on the Premium membership a little while ago and we spoke a little bit about is this job right for you?

And about three days after it went out, one of my members canceled my membership and messaged me and said, no, it isn't, I'm quitting.

And they literally left as a result of that episode, which I thought was great.

I'm going to put a competition up now, a random on the spot competition.

The first person after this episode goes out.

In fact, if anyone can guess it in the comments, they can have it as well.

So the first person to get this correct and let me know can have, let's say, six months free of the Instructor Premium membership.

Ollie mentioned one of the Cornetto Trilogy films in the entirety of the instructor podcast, which is about 236 episodes.

Only one other person has mentioned the Cornetto Trilogy films.

I'll give you a clue.

It's not Chris.

So if you can guess who the other person was, you can have a six month free membership of the introductory podcast Premium.

So who was the other person to mention the Cornetto Trilogy films?

Now, Ollie, we are going to come back to you for your positive in a moment because we took a slight detour.

But before that, I'm gonna go back to Emma Cottington.

Emma.

Hi.

What have you changed your mind about in the last few years?

I've changed my mind about a lot of stuff.

A lot of stuff.

It's quite interesting actually, because the.

The.

The industry has almost kind of become like a sort of like a fishbowl for me, and it's allowed me to kind of like, sit in it, but out of it a little bit and watch everybody inside it and, And.

And from a communication point of view, because I'm.

It's really intrigued me.

I don't know that there's a group of people more that's intrigued me into humans, like, and why we are the way we are, why we do what we do, why we behave the way we behave.

And I think it possibly goes Back to like 20.

In 2017, 2018.

I did the B Tech with tri coaching and I was looking there and that got me into like, for, like really going deeper into like, driver behavior and all that type of stuff.

But for me, it wasn't.

It was it what didn't really intrigue me.

Well, it did intrigue me in the industry, and it's obviously grown my career because of it, but more so from that human connection and human relationships and communication and.

And how we work and how we tick and, you know, what makes us the way we are.

So that.

That's changed me massively.

I think probably most of you guys on here know that I'm currently training to be a counselor and do psychotherapy and.

And it's this industry that's took me that way.

Don't know if it's because I needed counseling because of it or whether it's because I'm counseling people along the way.

I don't know what it is, but, yeah, you guys have all sent me down to be.

Deal with psychopaths and things like that, so that's.

That's fun.

That's definitely changed.

Changed me and put me kind of down this track of.

Of human behavior, I guess would.

Would be the umbrella I'd put it in.

Um, so that's definitely been a big change for me.

Well, would have been right in saying that you have only needed counseling since Senior Structure Podcast has come out.

Yeah, since I met you, Terry.

Funnily enough, I'm gonna say.

What is it?

Correlation doesn't necessarily mean causation.

And what about any changes you've seen to the industry itself over the last few years?

What stands out for you?

Um, I think it's interesting really, because there's been a lot of changes over the last sort of like, 18 months, two years.

I think we've got a lot of people popping up.

Like what I know, obviously I've missed the beginning part of this, jumping on late, but things like new courses coming around, the new driving schools that are popping up, you know, all of that type of stuff, different people offering different courses and training.

And it's really, really interesting because at first I really, really struggled with all of that because it felt really noisy.

Like, really, really noisy.

Like everybody was coming at me with a course, everybody was coming at me with this, and.

And I really, really struggled with it.

And it was mainly because I personally am the type of person who feels like I've got to be doing something all the time.

So I was trying to keep up with it all and I was like, I need to be on that course and I need.

Oh, and I should be doing that and I should be doing this and.

Oh, God, they're all right in the course.

Maybe I should be writing a course, you know.

And it was kind of like that noise and the busyness, and I was just like, whoa.

So, interestingly, I've changed that negative to a positive.

And that's why I do view it now as a positive in the industry, because at first I didn't.

Because I felt like we was overloading people, but that's because I felt overloaded and I sort of, like stepped out of that and went, I'm gone a minute.

This is just me.

This is how this is making me feel, that I need to be doing this course and this, and I'm not keeping up with that person.

And they're doing this and I'm not doing that.

And.

And then remembering that I'm also a mum of two teenagers, I'm running a driving school, I'm still teaching learners, I'm training PDIs, and I'm doing a degree.

Like, that's enough.

Like, that is enough.

And it took a while for me to step back and go, that's enough.

That I'm all right with that.

And there's.

There's plenty of courses out there that I want to do, but I've got five assignments till I qualify and 100 hours of counseling to do.

I'll deal with that stuff later.

So I do view it as a really.

A real positive, but I've had to.

I've had to really work through that to get to that point.

It's interesting, that one, because we did speak a little bit about the noise earlier and had so many conversations.

Well, no, let me rephrase that.

People have Come to me with these conversations about the noise industry.

And Chris, you touched it before.

How do we know what's good?

And it's somewhere that I'm still struggling to get my head around.

I'm trying to turn it into a positive for me, to make it work for me, and I think I'm on the right path to do that.

But, yeah, that's an interesting one.

And before I open that up, if anyone wants to touch on that, I'm going to say the same to you because I know that you are going to have to disappear before long.

But again, getting sentimental.

Over the past five years, you are someone that's had a really positive influence.

In fact, you got the award two years ago for.

I did.

I can't remember what the award was now, but for something about helping me keep an eye on Me of the year award or something like that.

But yeah, no, I appreciate, despite the fact it appears instructor podcast may have put you into counselling, I appreciate you hanging about despite that.

So thank you.

But, yeah, does anyone want to come back on that sort of around the noise of the industry and then potentially turn that into a positive?

It is the feedback I get most from, particularly PDIs, where, you know, I'll get the call and they'll say, you know, what should I listen to?

Or I'm.

I've taken my part three and I failed because I did what everybody, 20 different voices have told me to do.

And actually they're not telling them what to do, they're telling what not to do all the time.

Don't over instruct, don't tell the people what to do.

Don't, you know, dictate the lesson you've got.

It's got to be the pupil.

That's no, learn how to do the job first.

And as I said the other day on six for 60, you can be selfish.

It's okay to be selfish.

Focus on you being a really good instructor and your pupils will look after themselves.

So I think that there is a lot of noise out there.

And to link the two together, I think the industry suffers from a lack of structured, good structured training that is focused on becoming a driving instructor.

And I think a lot of that is because the people that write and deliver the training haven't got a bloody clue.

Taylor, what's your positive change?

So positive change for me is the increasing number of collaborations.

I'm seeing people no longer working in silos, but actually looking at joining forces and collaborating and bringing expertise together.

And I know he's gone now, but Tom again, you know, a classic example of that with Tom and the new drive up training school that obviously has been started.

Terry, yourself, you know, the classic example of how by collaborating and this actually then can positively impact on what both Emma and Chris have just talked about with this massive noise in the industry.

Whereas, you know, do you go to, you know, who do you go to if you're a pdi, who'd you go to for being a mentor?

And there's an analogy that isn't mine, but I absolutely love it.

And it's all about a sausage factory, about a sausage machine.

Bear with me on this one.

This will make sense, I promise.

So we're thinking about our PDIs as sausages in the sausage machine.

And all you're going to do is they're going to be, keep rolling through, keep rolling through, keep rolling through, keep rolling through.

And they're going to get, you're going to, you're going to have your basic sausage, basically.

And okay, your basic sausage is probably going to be good enough to put on the barbecue and eat.

But actually if you're going to promote that sausage, you don't want it to be the average sausage.

You want it to be a really, really good sausage.

Everyone else looks at and goes, wow, that sausage is top notch.

But to do that you need to add additional ingredients in.

Now the problem is when you go to the supermarket shelves and you look at the ingredients of your sausages, there is a multitude of ingredients there.

Which ingredients do you choose?

That's the problem.

What, what ingredients do you add into your sausage to make it the best sausage at the end production line?

So as a sausage maker, what I'm looking at is I'm looking at other sausage makers that I respect and admire and I'm going to choose one of those as the mentor.

So I'm going to have one, a really good sausage maker as a mentor who has probably already gone right through that ingredients list and gone, well, I've tried that ingredient, it was all right, but actually this one I found to be really good, this ingredient, whatever it might be.

So I'm going to put that ingredient into my sausage.

Now suddenly I've got a sausage that is standing out from the rest of it and all these courses, all these, all these things are out there are ingredients in that machine.

And all it's a case of doing is finding the right ingredients for that individual because it isn't one size fits all.

Me, I'd love a bit of, I'd love a bit of chili in the Sausage chili's not for everybody.

Not everybody likes the hot and spicy.

I personally do.

But actually there's other ingredients that other people have been putting in their sausages that don't look spicy, that make it as good as sausage.

So I think that whilst there's a lot of noise in the industry around training and I think the opportunities and options for training, there should be choice.

People should.

It should be allowed choice because one size doesn't fit all.

But I love this.

I really love seeing the collaborations.

I'm sorry.

You're killing me, Ollie.

You're killing me with this sausage analogy.

There's talk of sausage sizes and it not fit in.

And all I can think of is all this sausage.

I can't.

I'm not just congratulating myself that I'm doing better and holding it together than Chris is.

Terry's face.

I.

He was trying so hard not to laugh.

Dealing with children slightly back for you, Terry, if I can, is the whole point of that was thinking about actually that each PDI has got a different set of ingredients in them to make them what they are at the end of.

At the end of that production line.

And all they need.

All they need to do that is a good mentor, a mentor that they trust and respect, who can help steer them in the right direction, or an academy that can help steer them in the right direction, that can help them sift through the weeds.

Coral Dema, who became overwhelmed and over.

But overwhelmed with.

All the choices are out there.

Well, actually, if there was someone to help sift through the weeds through these academies and things, and this is why Honest Truth, and I've only.

I haven't mentioned it yet, so I'm going to mention it briefly now.

I know I don't need to mention it to hardly anybody here because you're all Honest Truth instructors, because I've checked, you're all, you know you are, but you're all on the honest truth register.

And that's the whole point of the Honest truth.

The honest truth is part of an ingredient.

And what we want to do is you want to collaborate with other.

Other ingredient manufacturers like yourselves, Terry, like, you know, Tom Stenson, others in the industry to collaborate, to say, look, we've got a bit of.

We've got a bit of recipe here, we've got an ingredient here for your PDI sausage machine to actually add into the ingredients.

If you want us to.

If you want to add that ingredient in, we're here for you to do that.

So for me, a real positive is seeing the, the real positivity around collaborations with people that you maybe wouldn't normally collaborate with, that you'd reach out and go, we are going to collaborate with that person because actually what they've got and what they're offering fits into our recipe list really nicely.

And that's a big, big change I've seen is people are far more willing to reach out and collaborate with others and people like ourselves who aren't embedded in the industry the way that you all are.

We are, in some respects, we are somewhat of an outsider in the industry.

We are a road safety campaign specialist.

We're not, you know, we're not, we're not directly involved in that learning drive process.

We are a bolt on.

But I believe, and I know this feeling is felt by others on the call that I believe that we're a critical bolt on Phil, I should have mentioned Phil, obviously collaborating with Phil and co as well, to bring the really we've got into their PDI machine as well.

Just finished off, if I may, Terry, by saying we're really keen, really keen.

And there's been a lot of talk about PDIs and the training with PDIs and that we've had a slight shift in focus, Honest truth, in the last month or so.

We're absolutely about existing instructors 100%.

We want to encourage as many existing instructors possible to come along, take on the honest truth and start to deliver it in their lessons.

We are uber super keen, mega keen, as per the mega faults.

We are mega keen to engage with academies and those that are training PDIs because they're the next generation of instructors coming through.

And if we can encourage PDIs to start coaching road safety as a normal part of lessons, it becomes part of their instructed DNA.

They've never done any different.

They will then go away.

And as well as teaching those mechanical skills and the skills that a young person or a new driver needs to pass a practical test, they'll also be teaching them as part of that process, the life skills to keep their license and stay safe on the road long, long after you're not sat next to them anymore.

So that's really, honestly what we're trying to, really try to dig into at the moment, is to work with anybody who is training PDI to go here.

This is what we are, this is what we can do for you as a, as a delivery of training to pdi.

Let's get the next generation having it as part of their ADR DNA.

I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna start off this response by saying that you won't know this.

Ollie.

A couple of months ago, I said before I had Dr.

Box on the show and someone left a review, and in that review it said that I am like the 13 year old in the room of a group of adults and I'm more and more seeing that they may be correct.

So I apologize for that.

But do you know, I had that on my list of changes.

And I don't want this to sound like I'm giving myself the credit for this happening, but it's something I've seen more since the instructor podcast came about.

I think one of the things that I saw when I started doing this back in 2021 was there wasn't a lot of collaboration.

In fact, the only kind of thing that I saw prominently was actually Bob, and I was doing a series of Facebook lives at the time with different instructors.

He had me on a couple.

God knows why back then, but, you know, but it was few and far between.

And I'm seeing more and more of that now.

And I do think I had a little influence in that, in people kind of going, oh, it's okay to promote this person or it's okay to talk about this thing.

Whereas I think before a lot of wrong word, but bigger names in the industry were reluctant to share others for fear of losing custom.

And I think it's gone the risk of being slightly negative.

I feel like there's tribalism starting to creep into the industry now.

So not necessarily a lack of collaboration, but it feels like there's a very much my way or the highway aspect.

And if you're not doing what I say, you must be wrong.

And if you're not team so and so you're on the wrong team.

So I think the collaboration is still there, but I think there's some, some tribalism kicking in.

Dirt.

Do any of you guys want to touch on that?

100%, Terry.

And I think it worries me sometimes when I.

When I see people.

A very wise old man once said to me, if you fling around the place, some of it lands on you.

So this negativity that I see all the time, oh, you don't want to go wherever you want to go with me, because they're shit and I'm not.

That's somebody who's fearful of competition.

If you're fearful of competition, there must be something maybe not quite right with your offerings.

It's, you know, why you're never going to make yourself feel better by trying to make somebody else feel worse.

That's Just.

That's a truism.

It's never going to work.

So why not just be positive?

Yeah, they're doing a good job.

Why don't you give them a look, see what they've got to offer, you know, and then give me a shout, you know, it's.

We shouldn't be scared of this stuff.

So that's a form of tribalism, but we're losing our way a little bit.

I love the fact that we've got a lot of new providers coming along and it all seems to be the right ethos and it's all very positive and I love it.

But we are perhaps guilty of.

And social media is partly to blame for this because it just feeds you stuff that agrees with your viewpoint.

You know, that's the problem, isn't it?

We never, ever hear the other viewpoint until somebody posts something and, you know, by some reason it's dropped into our feed and we're then monstrously out.

How dare you disagree with me.

It's only a disagreement.

When I was at school, we had debating societies and the way to make your point was to make your point so that the other person went, oh, yeah, oh, yeah.

So instead of attacking people, you know, what we should do is try and learn.

So I always try and do that.

Try and learn something.

I said, well, that's interesting.

What makes you say that?

So choose somebody that you disagree with on Brexit and try it.

Well, that's interesting.

What made you say that?

What made you do that?

You might learn something.

Anyway, I'll shut up.

How tribal are you?

How tribal am I?

Oh, I'm on Team Green.

Hey, not answering that one.

Either way.

Right, I'll.

Point taken.

Ollie, let's come back to you then, because I want to ask what you've changed your mind about.

In fact, you know what?

Screw it.

Before I come on to that, one of the.

The positive changes I've really seen is.

Is the honest truth.

Because the honest truth was here before I started the instructor podcast, but it was by no means in the same.

You know, the changes in the Honest Truth and.

And the way it is now, I just think is you've massively stepped up a gear.

You know, you've got your.

And I'm going to ask you to talk about this a little bit, actually, but you've got the.

The coaching resources that are coming out as well.

So I'm just.

It's one of my favorite things in the industry.

It really is.

I've said this a lot and I don't not saying it because you're here.

I say it when you're not here.

But just tell us a little bit about some of the changes that the Honest Truth has gone through over the last few years.

Okay, so.

So the whole ethos behind the Honest Truth, and I know most of you would have probably heard me talk many times before, was that we wanted to be there for driving instructors.

That was the holding boss behind it.

You, we saw you as undervalued and under loved, basically, and not seen by many as a rotating professionals that you all are.

What we wanted, we wanted to change that and we did that.

We changed that over a decade ago when we very first started, in the very early days.

So over the last few years, exactly as you've alluded to, Terry, is we've gone through a huge amount of change at the Honest Trip.

And what we wanted to do is we wanted to bring it into the 2000s and beyond.

And we listened to young drivers, we listened to driving instructors, we listened to those respected names in the industry and said, okay, how are we going to do this differently?

What can we do?

What can we do?

And this is where we came up with the idea of, of going digital, basically.

So going digital meant that obviously the development of the app, which I know many of those on the call have got and are using, is that.

That was.

That was okay.

The app was there.

It enabled driving instructors to work their way through a set of structured road safety topics.

10 into 10 at the moment, more hopefully on the way in the next few months.

We're busy working behind the scenes on that at the moment, to be able to introduce a topic into a driving lesson, to be able to open up debate a conversation about that particular topic.

But it was there for the driving instructors, to help the driver instructors.

What we weren't saying was, we weren't saying to drive instructors, you're not delivering road safety here.

This is the way you must deliver it.

We're saying, look, we've got a mechanism here for you to deliver road safety if you want to use it.

And more and more driving instructors are choosing to use it, as you well know, Terry, and as instructors on those on the call will know.

But then we looked at it and said, hang on a minute, how can we make this even better?

And it was an instructor that I spoke to that said, ollie, love your videos, love what you've done.

Pupils love the videos.

We show the video.

And then I get a little bit stuck about quite where to go from there.

I said, ah, okay, I've got an answer to that.

So what we what we just launched again we've launched the digital version and the physical version versions are currently in my garage and kitchen at the moment.

And thousand sets off is the Honest Truth coaching Guide.

So the whole idea and a lot has been talked about around coaching this evening which is absolutely.

So we we've gone down the same road and said right, let's produce a full coaching guide for the Honest Truth.

I know that many of you know would know about this and had a have had a hand in supporting and getting it put together and looking at it for us.

But basically a set of 10 color coded cards alongside an introduction card.

Each card formatted the same way.

Conversation starters of one here, seat belts, Conversation starters, overcoming common objections, putting it into context of the car and top takeaway tips.

That isn't an answer sheet for a driver, a student.

That's not an answer sheet.

That is a way of getting them to open up about the risk associated with that particular topic.

For them to be able to then come up with the answers themselves, coaching them into coming up with the solutions to the problems they're going to face surrounding road safety.

Peer pressure decisions.

They're going to have to make critical decisions sometimes in very short notice once they've passed their practical test.

So the whole idea behind Honest Truth is to get driving instructors to be able to coach road safety as a standard part of lessons.

Which is why we're so keen to engage with training providers and academies that are training the next generation of instructors.

So it becomes a normal part of the process.

It isn't an add on to a driving lesson.

It is, it is part of a driving lesson.

I had a comment recently to me which made me roll my eyes and I actually rolled my eyes to the comment maker and they said to me, well, if the wheels aren't turning, they ain't learning.

I was like, ah, oh, we still got people in the industry think like that.

If the wheels don't turn in there, look.

And I said I completely disagree.

I said I totally disagree.

You're telling me that two minutes to show them a video and discussing that topic throughout that lesson, not throughout the whole lesson, but discussing it during the lesson.

You might see that, you might see that behavior as part of the lesson, but discussing the risk, discussing what they're going to do about it, surely that has got to be a good investment of two minutes of somebody's time.

Now I know it is because I had an instructor contact me recently and I'd be a little Bit careful if I talk about this because it's a live investigation there.

There is an investigation going in a certain part of the country at the moment involving a single vehicle and two fatalities, both teenagers in a single vehicle collision.

What I didn't know was there should have been a third fatality that night.

However, the third individual didn't get into the car that night.

Now, their instructor said they are confident it was because they'd had the honest truth had been drummed into them every single driving lesson on that night in question, they made the decision to find a different way home.

Had they been in that car, they would have been a third fatality.

No question.

Absolutely no question whatsoever.

They are walking around with a very bright future ahead of them because they made a different decision.

Now, regardless of everything else, if that was as a result of two minutes of an instructor's time to show a video about a certain topic around road safety, that to me tells me everything I need to know about the honest truth.

I don't need to know anything about honest truth.

That's all I need to know, that a life has been saved.

And there will be other similar stories that I haven't been told about, I'm sure, but that one to me was the instructor came to me and said, ollie, I think you should know about this.

And I said, wow, unbelievable.

That's why I do what I do again today.

That's why I'm so passionate about trying to encourage driving instructors to invest a bit of their time into delivering the honest truth as their mechanism for road safety within course driving lessons.

But I know I don't need to sell it to those on this particular podcast that are certainly on with us this evening, others who are listening to it post this evening, if you're not a member of the Honest Truth, seriously think about it.

Do you want to mention some up there, Bob?

Sorry, I did.

It's just a phrase that Ollie used that might be something that is slightly off putting for instructors.

He said they have the honest truth sort of rammed home.

I understand completely what you mean, but the reality here is that it's back to the rules of engagement thing.

This coaching contract that doesn't just happen at the very start, it's every time we introduce a new subject.

What's your take on this?

What would you do if.

Well, what if one.

If you're in a car, one of your mates is refusing to put the seatbelt on, what would you do?

Well, I'd tell her to put the seatbelt on.

Well, what if you told you to shut off, because that's what's going to happen.

What will you do then?

So they've got strategies and that instructor will have had the conversation, what would you do if one of your mates and was under the influence of something and they were going to drive home and you felt a bit uneasy about it?

What's your options?

And one of those options will be, well, I'd tell them to bugger off and I'd get an Uber home.

So that's probably what's happened.

Because they've run that scenario through their mind.

In theory, when it comes to the practical, they go, actually, no, no, I don't think so.

This is all about Bob.

That's exactly what this is here, to prepare providers to provide those strategies for those that aren't maybe as confident topics.

It coaches them all the way through it, all through the 10 topics.

So it's, it's, you know, it's, it all ties in with it.

Such a lot of the things that are wrong with, with what we do and the way we do things, we need lots of collaboration for that.

So, you know, if you look at the L test, most ADI training that I observe is all based around telling them not to do things that they think will make them fail their test, which is what makes ADIs obsessive about mirrors.

Examiners aren't obsessed about mirrors, nowhere near.

So, you know, our ADI and PDI training has gone the same way.

Now the advice that's given to PDIs is all about, well, don't do this, don't do that.

Like Chris was saying earlier on, where if we just trained in a way that said, okay, if you're faced with this situation, it's your standards check now and you're on lessons and this happens, what's your options?

And if we help people develop this set of options, which becomes, by the way, as we all know, hardwired as part of who they are, if they come up with these solutions, then we're training people to think on the spot and to evaluate what their options are.

Just like that person who didn't get in the car.

Well, no, do you know what?

No.

You want to take the risk, Knock yourself out, body lap, because it's not for me.

So, you know, we need to have the same sort of approach to training.

And it's this, this raw learning that we have at the minute.

And it doesn't matter how well you dress up instruction, it's still rote learning.

It's still a ton of stuff to remember, which is also by the way, things to forget where things that we come up with solutions for ourselves by being put in certain scenarios or having some experiences and then reflecting upon it.

That becomes hardwired, that becomes a part of who we are, never to be forgotten.

While we have normal brain function.

Perhaps shouldn't talk about normal brain function here.

We'll go back to sausages again and the reaction got from us.

I think the thing I just want to touch on here actually just on what you said there, Ollie, is it's something I hear a lot from instructors regularly is if I can just impact one person, if I can influence one person, if I can save one life.

Well, you've just shown that it does.

It's, you know, like you said, there's countless more of those instances.

You know, I, I think I've told you before about I've got a shoot at the minute that he's now wearing a seatbelt when he wasn't before.

And that's come as a, as a result of the, the honest truth around the seatbelts.

So it's that aspect.

You might, you could teach a hundred students and it might not have an impact on any of them, but then you might come to student 101 and they might make that choice you just spoke about.

And I think that's how we need to look at it.

But I'm going to just throw this open to Chris and Emma.

Have you guys got anything you want to add on to that?

Is that a nod for me?

I don't think I've got anything to add that's not already been said.

I think I heavily agree with what Bob said that a lot of it is.

It's in conversation.

It's in what I said on the six for 60 last week.

I can't.

I've taught.

I'm tired.

The six for 60 last week.

It's about being curious.

It's about being curious with people of like, what are you thinking about this and what are you thinking in this situation?

What would you do if this was you?

And you know, and just really having those, those conversations where it's just part of the lesson that it's not, oh, let's pull up at the side of the road and watch this video on seat belts.

You know, it's, it's just part of the, the conversation that you're having with your learner and just being curious with them as to, you know, what they're doing.

I mean, I had a really interesting conversation.

It's what I call a door handle drop where he was literally getting out of the car at the end of his lesson and made a comment about speeding and then shut the door.

It was the end of the lesson, and I was like, I need to have a conversation about that.

And he was gone.

And it's definitely something we'll be having a conversation with at the beginning of next lesson, but it's having those conversations, and it's about us as well.

Being instructors of.

This is where our active listening skills come in.

Because if we're not actively listening to the things that's not being said or the things that's being said in between the things that's being said, we're missing important stuff.

We're missing really important stuff.

And it's in those.

Those bits that we can then get curious.

I'm interested in your response to that.

I'm interested in why you nodded your head there or, you know, and just being curious as to why they've done it.

But the active listening is where that often starts, because we'll miss a lot if we're not.

Well, we're very bad at it as an industry, I'm afraid.

You know, it's like when the people say, you ask your people something and they say, well, I think so.

Instructors will move on.

What would knowing soul look like?

All right.

And now we're starting to drill into the thought processes that underpin the emotion that underpins the behavior.

Absolutely.

Been saying this for four years now.

Stand by.

If you want to get good active listening, host a podcast.

You haven't got a choice.

It works a treat.

Chris, anything you want to add on to that?

I think we are getting better at it, though, that people are more.

More accepting of it and.

And you know that I haven't been asked yet, but I'll say it anyway.

That's my thing that's changed over the last four years, is that there.

It's.

It's the pdi.

It's a generational thing.

We are becoming more and more aware of this, because I'm getting older that you see these waves and Bob's nodding because he's seen lots of these generations come through.

No, I knew it.

Right.

In all sincerity, because I always take that Bob, and he knows I don't mean it, but it.

I think he's an awesome example of.

Of having seen those changes that.

That you.

You can.

You can follow those waves of change through.

And he's.

He's led every single one of them along the way.

And that.

I mean that genuinely.

That's not a dig that is that we see those changes coming through.

And I think there is a generational change where I still say there are ADIs that should feel very, very threatened by the PDIs coming in with better knowledge than they've got after 20 years in the industry.

So that's something that I think is really important, that the entry level is from a coaching foundation and an appetite to learn more.

I think unfortunately, some of that is because of the lack of good, strong, supportive training that's there in the first place.

But there is this change in approach and attitude and that, you know, the PDIs are coming in knowing stuff that some instructors haven't discovered yet.

And I think we're too close to it.

It's something that I've always tried to take that step back and look at the overview and you know, I said on the Green Room about risk that we've got of too many cooks, you know, delivering training and there was too much noise and people would start really struggling.

And it is, it's, you know, it's, it's happening and we have to find solutions to it along the way.

It's not a bad thing, it's just a thing.

TV was a bad thing when it first came out and look where we're at now.

Podcasting.

What ridiculous thing?

Who, who would listen to a podcast?

You know, it was, it was just a little, a little audio thing that people did for themselves and it's massive now so that we have to respond to it, we have to make sure it's going in the right direction and that we're positively engaging and to link the two things together.

We are learning slowly.

It took me a long time sitting in stupid meetings that never got anywhere.

I'm still doing that.

But someone's got to that the DBSA are not going to lead from the front.

They're going to, you know, build the barriers behind us and make sure that the minimum standard is met.

It is down to everybody else to do that.

And there are PDIs who already have those plans to lead the industry.

Arrogant so and so, but the bloomin do it.

Yeah.

And there's some new ADIs that I, I, I'm too long in the tooth to be scared of.

But if I, if I was, you know, it was new to the industry, they would be the ones to watch.

You know, I'm, I'm part of the furniture now.

They can work around me.

So, and I look forward to it.

But the, you know, they are there.

They are new people, new blood coming in.

And gone are the days of you've got to be doing the job 20 years before you can tell someone what to do about it.

And we all have the names in our head.

I'm not going to name them because that's pressure.

I look forward to seeing it as they succeed.

Go on, Terry, give us a list.

Just before we come on to that we're about to Zema Cotton.

So if everyone could say bye and tell us she's awesome, that'd be great.

Bye.

Always a pleasure, never a chore.

See you later.

I think the thing I wanted just to touch on actually, because it seems to have been a little bit of a theme through what everyone said is that word noise and think it's we need to look at ourselves as people that create this stuff.

So do you know what?

I can bring Ollie back in for this.

In the Honest Truth, Ollie saw the weak point in the honest truth and made it digital.

And then he saw the weak point in the ice truth and brought these coaching things out.

It's not resting on your laurels and going, oh, I'm doing this thing now.

I'm just going to keep shouting about it, you know, come back to you again, Bob, and I'll look at you.

Try and set a learning.

Still doing it.

But you keep adding other things on.

It's like, okay, this is missing.

I think we need this.

And yes, it's creating noise, but it's, it's providing the thing that you believe.

I put, I put a post up the other day about the podcast and this is so self aggrandizing but I don't mind it now and again.

And I'd refer to this podcast as being the client center podcast because I don't give the industry what it wants.

I give it what it needs and I think that's what we need to do.

And it's something that I've been reflecting on a lot over the past nine to 12 months with this podcast and I kind of joked about it earlier but honestly starting May I'm gonna.

There's a podcast episode coming out telling you what the changes I'm making because I think it needs a complete overhaul and there'll be people disagree, but I think that because of what I do and because of what's going on in this really minute, I think it does and no one else is overhauling what they're doing in that sense.

So I think that I need to.

So do you think that's an element of it, Chris?

Do you think it's taken a step back as ourselves?

Whether that's as trainers, as people that run courses and qualifications or people that create content and going, I can see a problem there.

What changes can I make to address that?

Yeah, what's the, the, the phrase that someone keeps using?

Game changers and innovators.

You know, you, you need to be in there.

We're in a constantly moving environment.

You can't sit still.

You used to be able to sit still because every pupil was taught the same and you just sit there and you tell them what to do and you keep telling because it was them that was the problem, not you.

And actually now you've got to be on your toes because if every lesson is different, every pupil is different, you've always got something to learn, you've always got a new hurdle to come across, you've always got a development that you can make.

And we're also in a situation where you can quite rapidly create a product and work with that product.

I found the opposite to be true with some of the things that I've done.

Where I've done it, I've completed that circle and I want to then move on and do something else.

And I think we need to be willing to do that as well.

It hasn't got to be growing the same thing over and over again.

That we can have some recreation and some new stuff coming through.

And you know how many hats the people that in this, in this room wear.

You know, it's that, isn't it?

We've also, as, as a, as a, as a population, I think we've, we've embraced and I know there's lots of people that are very anti it and it's, you know, it's a cultural thing or a, it's, it's all a bit namby pamby potentially, but we've embraced neurodiversity more this industry.

Find me someone who isn't, you know, it's all on a spectrum and a scale and everything else and some are more than others.

And I don't want to know where you put me in that, in that list because my pupils tell me all the time, but that I think inside of an entrepreneurial background of people who would have been educated, this is totally unfair to a lot of people in the industry, people who would have been educators if they were more book smart.

I know this thing I love about the industry.

You'll sit at the test center and you'll meet an ex doctor, an ex lawyer, an ex teacher, and they'll be driving instructors, you know, and so the backgrounds are massively Mixed, but there is this leaning towards those people who, who were not necessarily at school or book smart but have got a passion for education, learning and development and cannot sit the hell still.

So, you know, that is, that's awesome.

But it wasn't embraced previously and now the world is allowing for that to happen.

So there's, let's see in four years time how different it is going to be from now because I think it's going to be fascinating and Bob will.

Still be here more than likely.

I think one of the nice things and something to differentiate is the onset of accredited courses and I don't know if the industry understands what that means.

The awarding body is the quality assurance.

So your work is assessed internally and verified internally.

It then goes forward to the awarding body.

So an external organization who is responsible to offqual actually, you know, verifies that that's the case.

So it's not, it's not done in house.

Well, it is initially.

So that, that's your sort of guarantee of standards if you like.

So it's been lovely that that's happened.

And Chris is right, you know, that we are more welcoming or more open to the, to the fact that if that learner is not learning, it might be us and not them.

Where in the past it was easy just to point the finger, you know, education wasn't for me at school.

I had a terrible time.

I hate it.

But I found a joy in learning later in life and went on to, you know, become a qualified teacher, assessor, verifier, coach, all that sort of stuff because I love education, but I thought I hated it.

In the interest of, you know, trying to show other people out there who might feel inadequate in, in certain ways and, and sharing, you know, that we all feel that at certain times.

Absolutely.

Accreditation scares the crap out of me in, in some ways when I look at courses because I always is that judgment thing, isn't it?

It's are you going to be good enough?

Are you going to be capable of doing it?

You know, I got diagnosed very late with dyslexia and you know, my whole world suddenly made sense and that I recognize that so much every day I find new things where I.

Oh yeah, that, you know, that makes that, that is why.

And I know I've done things in the past where it's been because it's an accredited course, we had to use the long blooming words.

Yeah, that's, that is, you know, so I think that's something that we, we need because we're such a good industry for people who work differently and aren't necessarily book smart.

I.

That's what I would like to see moving forwards is an embracing of, of that so that you don't.

The accreditation doesn't shut people out.

Well, the nice thing is that they've evolved quite a bit quicker than we have.

And now the assessment.

In the past you just had to write, you know, do me a 10,000 word assignment now.

Now you can sit down with your assessor and turn the video camera on and your assessor says, explain this, describe how this is and what's the difference between that and that.

So they're much more open to having a more holistic kind of assessment, which is good news.

And it doesn't shut out people who are.

I know some people at school who were, you know, assigned to what was regarded as the dummies class and it was even referred to as such by the teachers.

And they've grown into really incredible adults who, who manage very complicated businesses, are making their way in the world.

But they were regarded as the educated by the education system as being dummies and they clearly weren't, you know, so it's, so we are, it is evolving and things, you know, on a, on a positive note here, things are getting better, but I just wish they were getting better quicker.

Yes, you've touched on it there, Bob.

I think I'm going to ask you, what changes have you noticed of our last few years?

Well, I think personal and professional.

Go professional first.

I love that there's new stuff happening, new schools emerging that are putting the focus on taking care of the people within their care.

You know, I mean, I grew up as an instructor in ldc, which have always believed in that.

You know, they've always cared about their instructors.

You know, it's a real family feel.

So it's lovely to see all of that sort of stuff.

And I think standards are generally getting better.

We've still got a way to go, but we're moving in the right direction.

You know, things like the DITC and all the online providers for diary management, all that, that's all really improving.

The DVSA is always going to stay the same and I think we look as an industry to them.

They're not here to lead us, they're here to monitor what we do and to manage the register.

So we should look internally, we should be turning the finger of blame inwards.

Well, what can we do about that?

So if we had more of those conversations, and I think those conversations are now aired publicly because of this Podcast and the other podcast.

But I think this has been the one that's really, you know, plowed the furrow and led the way and more power to you, Terry.

I think it's, you know, you've done a great job with it and I think it's changed the way the industry looks at itself.

Maybe not the whole industry, but quite a lot of it.

Personally, you know, the, the change for me came post Covid where I decided I was going to retire because Covid burnt a lot of energy for me.

And at the end of it I was exhausted and I said, okay, this is the time the company was through, was time to hand over the directory training role to somebody else.

It's in capable hands.

That was when my mate Stuart, bless his cotton socks.

So I then decided I would retire.

Of course I got involved with you and chatting about stuff and I realized that maybe retirement wasn't for me.

So it made me focus on.

That's just my other half going, shouldn't want me at home all the time.

So it helped me, you know, being involved with this and talking to other people and, you know, and it helped me to see that, okay, I still had something to give and I was still actually willing to give it and I still enjoy doing what I do.

So that's the change for me, I think.

I think you've redefined retirement a bit.

Like Frank Sinara just won't go away.

Well, you know, I just want to touch briefly on because you gave me a.

Pay me a nice compliment there and you know, again, self aggrandizing, it's one I agree with.

But I think that it's not me, it's the.

Again, going back to what Ollie said before, it's a collaboration.

You know, if you look at every single guest that's been on, I've collaborated with that guest and because I want to provide them a platform because they're either talking about something that I believe is important or they're.

I'm showcasing something that I want to showcase.

And I don't mean to bring this back to negative, but again, that's my concern at the minute.

It feels like it's getting a bit more tribal, but I think more people are following on with that.

Now maybe the best example of that might be Josh hollering with Mirror Signal podcast.

You know, I know he takes a different route.

He's talked to a lot of PDIs and whatnot, but he's still not afraid to have someone on, you know, he's had me on, you know, and People could call us competition, you know.

So I think that, I think you're right.

I think it is going in that right direction.

But you know, just regarding sort of you personally, it's, it's, it's been, it's been nice to watch Bob.

It really has.

Because it just seems like, like you said, it's almost like it wasn't retirement.

It was.

You just didn't want to do the day to day Monday and boring shit.

And now you get to pick and choose the good and fun stuff you do.

Yeah.

And I think people can learn from that.

Yes.

Do the stuff that you want to do.

And do you know what a little story.

I probably shouldn't say this, but we're two hours into a podcast.

No one else is going to be listening now, so it's all right.

But I had a health scale last year and it was one that I genuinely thought where, oh, I might only have six months left here.

And my thing was I'm going to have the best time ever in those six months if I have it, or really kind of positive thing.

Then I thought, well, why do I have to wait until I get told I've only got six months left?

Why don't I do that now?

And it's that little shift in mindset to, well, let's just enjoy the stuff we do as well as the stuff, you know, having to do the stuff.

But maybe I could say that's why I changed my mind.

Leading nicely on to Ollie.

What have you changed your mind about over the last few years?

I think you've just muted yourself.

Sorry.

Yeah, sign around.

So I think the biggest change I've had in the last few years was again coming into retirement or semi retirement and making that decision as to whether or not I wanted to be an employee again or continue to be an employee or to strike out on my own like many of you have struck out on your own.

And the biggest change for me is that I don't want to go back to being an employee again.

I've decided amongst other things, but I think for me is that the, that ability to be the author of my own destiny.

And if I wake up in the morning, as long as I haven't got any actual commitments and it's a nice sunny day outside, I can actually think to myself, I'm not going to go to work today.

I'm going to have a day for me.

I'm going to do what I want to do today.

Or what Mrs.

Taylor wants me to do for the day is the Usual one, it's rather than what I'd like to do for the day.

But yeah, I think it's about sometimes about striking out, you know, striking out on your own.

And I know many, many driving structures are in a similar position where they decide to strike out on their own.

It can be a bit feast and feast or famine.

It can take you to some very unusual places, as you very well know, Terry, from my excursions at the back end of last year.

But that's the beauty of it, actually.

I really like the thrill of not quite knowing what's around the next corner and then meeting it head on.

Whereas for 30 years I kind of knew what was around the next corner because I would go in, I would get on the hamster wheel at seven in the morning, two in the afternoon, ten o'clock at night for nine hours and I go round and around the hamster wheel and then I get off the hamster wheel 8, 9, 10, 12, 14, sometimes maybe 20 hours later, 23, 24 hours later, and go home in some sort of state of complete knackeredness, depending what I've been up to.

But it was still a hamster wheel, whereas now I've got the ability to choose.

And exactly as Bob was just saying, I think you mentioned it as well, I pick out the best bits.

It's great because I can pick out the best bits of what I want to do.

And a lot of what I do now doesn't feel like work, which is great when you find a job that doesn't feel like work.

I think you found your niche in life because very little I do at the moment with the honest truth and with other things that I'm involved in as well.

It doesn't feel like working, which is great.

So every morning I get up and I bound around the house much the enormous of the ginger cat who hasn't made an appearance.

He's obviously hidden somewhere.

That for me is probably my biggest change in the last few years and I don't regret it Once, one bit of it.

Not at all.

Well, I mentioned before that correlation doesn't necessarily equal causation.

But every time you start speaking someone has to leave.

So I'm going to move over to Bob.

Bob, have you got time just to tell us what you've changed your mind about in the last few years?

Well, I think the biggest one is retirement.

I'm not going to say I discovered it wasn't for me, but it was just I discovered new avenues and things, new interests, new things that really made me think, oh, I could do that, I could make a difference there.

I could do this, I could do that.

So that's been the big thing, changes in the industry.

I think it's the same stuff dressed up a different way.

We're still very negative about some stuff and it's.

Until we start seeing that we need to be the solution, things probably aren't going to change and there's lots of people making the right noises about it.

So I'm very hopeful that it will happen.

You know, there are enough people leading the way.

So I'm very positive about that, I think.

Well, keeping with my sentimental motif throughout the episode, I'm going to take a moment to say thank you for joining us tonight.

Thank you for being the first guest ever on this podcast and giving it a bit of a boost early on and being a guest several times over the green room, but also I think indirectly being a bit of a mentor to me.

Oh, I won't class you as an official mentor because I don't pay you for anything indirectly.

I think you've helped me an awful lot on you.

You're a good human, Bob, a good human.

So.

So thank you.

Oh, now bugger off.

Right, I'll see you all later.

Be good.

Bye, Bob.

So, yeah, always.

It's an interesting one that, because I think that applies to a lot of instructors.

I saw a lot of people that become instructors.

You know, a lot of people come from full time employment to becoming an instructor.

I know it's not quite the same thing as retirement or semi retirement, but in most cases all of a sudden you, you running your own business and there is no if you get to dictate when you work.

And all right, I know you can't always manage that, but you get to dictate when you work, you get to dictate what you charge, you get to dictate who you work with.

And I do have people that listen to this podcasts that aren't instructors, that are considering becoming instructors.

So if, if someone was worried about that, that idea of going for employment, to being self employed and that role, maybe, what advice would you offer them, do you think?

I think, to be honest with you, Terry, is you don't know until you try it.

That's the biggest thing I learned was, you know, I'd spent 30 years in, you know, a ridiculously regimented organization where I had to be at a certain place at a certain time to turn up for work.

And it was, it was, there was a structure, there was a hierarchy, there was, there were rules and regulations and red tape that were just never ending.

And it was never.

It was a.

It was never ending.

It didn't end.

It.

It didn't end for 30 years.

It won't end for another 30 years.

But coming out of it and making that conscious decision, I wanted to do something different and I wanted to give it a go.

Yes, it's always useful on my backup plan in case it doesn't work.

But actually what I didn't want to do was when I was, you know, when I get to the point where I'm lying there about breathe my last, I don't really want to be lying there thinking, oh, what if I'd done that?

What if I tried that?

I'll never know now, whereas I now know.

So I.

Again, it does take a certain type of character to, to, to strike out and go, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do this on my own.

But actually the same fortune favors the bros is never truer.

And you don't know until you try it.

And you suddenly might find a lot of people.

I talked to somebody, literally in the last day or so, a former colleague who just popped around to see if, you know, see that I was still alive more than anything, and they said, I never thought you'd lead policing.

And I said, yeah.

They said, I've spoken to others, we never thought we'd see you lead policing, yet you've left two years ago and you've now struck out on your own and you made a success of it.

Said, well, there it goes, anybody can do it, even those who are, who are seen and felt.

And maybe to a certain extent, I did feel institutionalized.

I was institutionalized into policing.

Of course I was.

I've done it since I was 21.

It's the only thing I knew.

But that doesn't mean I shouldn't try something else.

It's just about having that having a plan is really good, but it's also having having the confidence to step out and go, I'm going to give this a go.

I've got my ducks lined up, I know what I need to do, I know what I want to do, I know what I want to achieve, I know how I'm going to achieve it.

I just need all those bits to fall into place and then I'll do it.

And I haven't looked back.

And as a result, I don't want to be employed again and I've made that mistake and I do not want to be an employee again.

I don't like being answerable to people now.

I like the fact that the only person that I'm really answerable to is myself.

So long as what I do is to the very best of my ability, then that's enough for me.

And it was a headmaster at my primary school who said to me many, many years ago, and the motto, if you like the primary school, so 40 plus years ago now was only my best is good enough for me.

And I've lived by that.

Only my best is good enough for me.

If it's not somebody else's best, I don't care if their best is different to my best, whether it's higher or lower standard, that's not, that's not of concern to me.

So long as my only, my best is good enough for me.

That's what I live by and that's what I live by now.

And I love it.

I absolutely love the idea, you know, people who are thinking of striking out on their own, be brave, make that stat, make the step.

Because if you don't do it, you'll never know.

I think we often regret the things we don't do more than the things we do do.

But just, I mean that little bit you spoke about there, I'm.

I'm gonna tie that into mind.

Cause there was something very specific I wanted to mention about what I've changed my mind on and I think it, it does kind of loosely tie into what you were talking about there, which is, I think I've.

It's just clicked for me over the past couple of years that we're all on different chapters in potentially different books.

And I know that when I, even when I look at why I became a driving instructor, I didn't become a driving instructor to make the road safer.

I didn't become a driving instructor to reduce the number of people that died on the.

I became a driver because I wanted to be self employed again.

I wanted to be my own boss.

I liked working with people in a one on one environment in that training scenario.

That's why I did it.

Now don't get me wrong, when I first did, I obviously tried to make an impact on road safety but it took a few years for that road safety aspect to become my reason for doing the job.

And it's only really when I kind of put two and two together and came up with that, I realized not to be so judged a quick upper, not to be so quick to judge others.

You know, someone else who isn't in it for that reason hasn't got to that chapter yet, you know, and I think we're all just on, on different, different stages, different chapters of that book and not to be so quick to judge, you know.

And yes, there's right and wrong obviously, you know, we can't hide from the, the black and white aspect of it.

But I think we need to be a little, and I again massively include myself in this, a little bit more considerate and thoughtful sometimes before we judge others.

As soon as I've said that, I'm going to give you both a chance to rebut or comment on that before I move on.

I judge you massively on that front.

No, I agree.

And I think you do have to take that step back and remember that everybody is treading their own path and everything else.

I, I, I have massive respect for, you know, that, that leap that Ollie's taken because I never would have fitted into that regime.

I was forced into self employment because I'm unemployable, don't work well with other people very well.

So I think someone who, who has been hugely successful inside, inside of an organization, you know, like that, that, you know, that then does the total opposite of going, I'm going to go to the independent.

I think you, you are slightly confused about the fact you think that you are the only person that you have to make decisions for because Mrs.

Taylor says otherwise.

We all know that.

So, you know, apart from that, I, I think that's, that's awesome.

You know, I was, I was born to be self employed because fitting into boxes doesn't work well for me.

So I have more respect for someone who makes that choice, who's got the choice and then finds it.

And it is kind of blooming awesome, innit?

Yeah, Chris, you're absolutely right and thank you so much for your kind words.

And it was a strange jump to make.

It was definitely a very odd jump to go from that regimented routine into something so completely unregimented.

But again I found that actually it sinks me down to the ground.

Now, Terry, something you said that interested me was around everybody on different chapters.

People will be in different chapters in different books, sometimes on the same book, but on a different chapter.

The thing that I've always lived by as well, and again this is something I've had for many, many years.

I've drilled it into both my sons.

I used to drum it into my teams as well when I had a team around me was not to judge others by your standards because invariably you'll only end up disappointed and actually if other standards aren't the same as your standards, that's actually their problem, not your problem.

So I always used to say to my staff when they used to say so and so is not doing their work, or this person hasn't done this or that person hasn't done that.

Whoa.

Who.

Okay, have you done your bit of the jigsaw puzzle?

Well, I have.

Well, that's brilliant.

Okay, that's great.

Those aren't doing their bit of the jigsaw puzzle.

They will have to answer to that.

But actually, don't judge others by your standards.

You maintain and improve your standards, other standards aren't going to be the same, and I've lived by that for many, many years.

I have my standards, I will stick to those standards and I won't let those standards drop.

The fellows around me if their fans are dropping their problem, not mine.

So if others aren't coming along on the journey, if others aren't, you know, and this applies to any industry, and the driver training industry is no different.

And you, you will know those instructors who are in it for all the wrong reasons.

Everybody on this call will know instructors are in for wrong reasons.

Well, actually, that's their problem.

That's not our problem.

Because whilst we might not be able to influence 43,000 driving instructors, you'll never influence 40,000 driving instructors if you can influence just one driving instructor, influence one person to want to be you, basically, and be the person you are as an individual, or take the best bits of your character out of you and include it into their character.

Actually, that's massive.

That's absolutely huge.

And I had a colleague who came to see me on my very last day of service, such a nice guy, a guy I pushed into promotion.

And he came to my office, he said, Ollie said, I couldn't not see you before you went.

He said, I have to come see you.

It was his day off as well.

He came to see me and he said, every time I get to a situation that I haven't come across before, the first thing I do is I think to myself, what would Ollie do?

What would Ollie say?

And I walked away from 30 years policing going, that's all I wanted to know was that I'd had an impact on one person that thought enough of me and my standards and the way I worked to go, what would Ollie do in this situation?

And that's all I needed to know.

So it's all about, for me, it's about, don't judge others by your standards.

Took me about 38 years to get to that mindset.

So, you know, again, different chapter.

It took me a while to get to that.

But let's.

I want to come to you, Chris, because I have no idea what I'm going to get as a response to this.

What have you changed your mind about in the last five years?

I'm banning you from saying nothing, right?

So much on a daily basis.

I've done it.

When we've been having a conversation.

It's the thing that I've embraced the most is my opinion of changing your opinion.

Because historically.

Stubborn git.

You know, I like thinking that I'm right and I will stick to those guns because I'm right.

I've thought about it lots.

And that's the problem is because my brain doesn't stop very often.

I'm thinking about everything lots.

And I've learned that that's okay, but I've also learned that I can change my mind and that's okay as well.

So I think all of those things where things change, that's okay.

And what you thought yesterday doesn't have to be what you're thinking tomorrow because of.

It's a fluid situation.

And, you know, I think that trying to take a step back, not necessarily basing it on what we're told about something, Facebook taught me a lot about that.

Because of the algorithm, before we knew what that meant.

Now we're much more aware of the fact we still get, we buy into it and get, you know, get caught out by it all the time that we are, we're only, we only see what we asked to be seen.

But that used to kind of, you know, you'd see a news story and it was, you know, that's what you, you believed.

So questioning those things, you know, trying to, trying to take that step back and go, okay, this is what we're being told is happening, but what's happening behind that?

What's what?

Knock on effects are going to be there and just try and take that broader view before making judgments.

But then it's okay to, as things evolve, you, you evolve with it, because if you don't, then we're all going to struggle.

So, you know, I think I've said numerous times on Green Room episodes that I reserve the right to say differently tomorrow.

It.

I, I was reminded at the recent convention that there's people that go back and listen to these from the beginning because they discover the, the podcast, you know, this week, and they went, right, I'm gonna listen to all of it.

And they go back to the very beginning that strikes me with such fear because I don't believe that stuff that I was spouting then because things have changed and I've, I've evolved my view, you know, I, I haven't then gone and re recorded or, or issued a statement that says no, I think otherwise.

So I do wonder what view some people have of me depending on where they found me in life and everything else.

So yeah, my attitude to change is what has changed.

You know, the, the changes are still happening all the time and my approach to it is different that I, I'm happy to say how I think about it now and I might think about it differently tomorrow.

Just to reassure you.

I am considering limiting the number of episodes available to 250.

So when we do 251 episode one will disappear.

So I am considering doing that.

We'll see.

But I don't know where I heard, I heard someone say this once but you know, what's the point of having a mind if you're not willing to change it now and again?

And do you know what, I'm going to ask you this because I reckon you're the right person to ask.

Do you reckon there's a lot of people that are too unwilling to change their mind that gets, they're set in their ways.

So when something gets suggested, I.

E.

Coaching or client centered learning or changes to the driving test that rather than consideration there is, here's my dummy, I'm going to spit it out and throw the toys out of the pram along with it.

Yes, but I think the main reason is because they're scared.

That's the other thing I've embraced more is I'm very accepting of the fact that I'm scared of stuff.

The reason that I don't achieve certain things or I put things in my own way, you know, I, I used to celebrate the fact that I was quite, I wasn't comfortable outside of my comfort zone because that's the whole point.

But I was quite happy to put myself outside of my comfort zone.

And what I then realized was I was doing it when I was comfortable doing it, I wasn't doing it the rest of the time.

And I think there's that level of fear.

There's a reason that people hold a view.

Now is it an educated, well reasoned reason or is it a human response that my friend and an awesome mentor again, I haven't paid her for it so it doesn't count.

But Fiona Taylor, that stayed statement she made, stayed with me and really changed my Views of the first response.

Anyone has to.

Anything is an emotional one and we should judge them on the second one.

You know, if you are making a fear response and you're then not addressing that, then yeah, maybe you should address it.

But again, we'll talk about chapters of books and where people are in the journey and maybe they'll get there.

I, I think I've got there more with that kind of thing.

They haven't yet.

So it might be a lack of education about something.

The, the, the stuff we were talking about right at the beginning of this when we were talking about the DVSA announcements and I've got local WhatsApp groups where instructors have been saying the DVSA should do this.

I'm in a more educated position because I've been lucky enough to sit in that room and have that conversation where I can go, they're not doing it because of these things.

That doesn't make them wrong.

It may well be that those are the things that should happen to make change, but there are sometimes conditions in place that prevent it from happening.

Well, being government, it's designed to be slow and non responsive because it protects the country on a broad scheme of things the majority of the time.

So I think, yeah, it is.

We have to remember it's often fear or a lack of education, which is not an insult.

It's just that they haven't been there yet that gets those responses.

You mentioned comfort zones.

I would challenge everyone to get out of their comfort zone more often.

We wouldn't be having this conversation today if I'd stayed in my comfort zone.

So definitely.

Is there anything that either of you would like to add on to what we've spoke about today?

Because we've only been going for two hours and 20 minutes or bring into the conversation or anything we missed.

Now is your time.

I'll forever hold your peace.

We'll take that as a no.

And that is completely fine by me, which gives me the opportunity to continue in my routine of this episode to say first of all to Ollie Taylor, thank you for coming along today.

Thoroughly enjoyed having you.

It's been great.

Outsider is the wrong word, but you know what I mean.

The great.

Getting the outside perspective and from a personal standpoint, the honest truth.

You know what I think of that?

I love it.

It's like my first thing to plug or my first thing to shout about when anyone asks me anything, road safety wise.

But secondly, to yourself.

I've not known you that long, but you have been ridiculously helpful to me.

You're always friendly, you're always weren't lending here.

If I ask anything of you, your first response is always yes before I even check if you can.

Which is nice.

But also you give the best hugs ever.

So big thank you for Ollie, I appreciate you and appreciate you coming along today.

Answer, Chris Spencer, I'm gonna regret doing this later, but you know what I think of you as well.

I appreciate all the time you gave me throughout the green room over the last four years.

I think that you are the single most challenging person to talk to I have ever encountered in such a positive way.

It's, it's just such, it's just lovely talking to you.

It's an absolute pain in the ass sometimes when I want an answer or if I'll say something I think is good and rather than get a that's good that Terry.

Well done.

I get a 10 minute dissertation.

But I fully appreciate everything you contribute to this show and then away from the show.

I fully appreciate everything you contribute to me behind the scenes, personally, professionally, all that kind of chisel.

So a big thank you to you for that and for joining me today as well.

Love you too.

Excellent.

So, yeah, big thank you to both for joining me.

In fact, do you want to take one last time, Ollie, do you want to remind people where they can find you and what you have to offer inside 10 seconds?

If you can.

Www.thehonestruth.co.uk that's all you need to know.

Everything you need will be there.

And Chris, same to you.

TheDITC t-e--I t c.co.uk or theorytestexplained.co.uk I.

Think my biggest success story over the last four years is getting you to see the DITC.

When you're in that your website.

If you want to find more from me, I can't bother telling you it's been a long day.

You know where to find me.

But for now let's just keep raising standards.

The instructor podcast with Terry Cook, talking.

With leaders, innovators, experts and game changers.

About what drives them.