Atty. Miriam Airington-Fisher: I think that a lot of times, and some of this language has become really kind of cliche, you know, work life balance. and I think it, means different things to different people. So it is important to explain what it means to me is that we're not going to sacrifice our personal lives and our family responsibilities but I also believe that we don't need to, because I'm also not willing to sacrifice the health of the business, the welfare of our clients, and that's why I started my own practice, because I wanted to figure out how to do both.
Welcome to The Your Practice Mastered Podcast
[00:00:00]
MPS: Hey, Law Firm Owner, welcome to The Your Practice Mastered Podcast. We're your hosts. I'm MPS.
Richard James: And I'm Richard James. MPS, what a great pleasure we have today. We've been putting out content in the last couple of years, and we're communicating with those that are on our list. And we said, Hey, if you've got a great story to tell, we'd love to hear from you. Somebody raised their hand. And you and I, basically, what we do is have a little conversation with them before, to see, is it going to bring value to everybody?
And oh, my gosh, what value is Miriam going to bring today, Michael?
Introducing Today's Guest: Miriam
MPS: Oh, I'm excited for this. We got to talk a little bit pre-show to learn just continue details about the firm and what she's been able to accomplish. So this is going to be fun. Miriam, thank you for being here today. I appreciate it.
Atty. Miriam Airington-Fisher: Yeah, I'm excited. Thanks for having me.
MPS: Yeah, likewise. Look, one of the things we like to do is just break the ice a little bit.
So what's something that maybe not everyone knows about you?
Atty. Miriam Airington-Fisher: Oh, I got my motorcycle license about 15 years ago. And I've never ridden a [00:01:00] motorcycle since, but I got the license. I passed the test.
Richard James: Oh, I'm so jealous. When I was 12 years old, my parents would never let me ride a motorcycle. When I was 12 years old, my friends had a mini bike. And they were all taking turns riding the mini bike. And I'm thinking, Oh, my parents said I can never ride one. I was a 12 year old boy, and I was going to do it anyway.
So I did it. And I rode them and I had the time of my life. And I'm like, Oh my gosh, I want a motorcycle so bad. I come home, I tell my parents, and they grounded me for two weeks. And I never bought a motorcycle from that point forward. It's probably good, considering the way I drive a car, probably would have had some accidents along the way, and that wouldn't have been a good thing. But I will admit, the thrill of driving a motorcycle.
So maybe like you, what I'll do is, I'll prove I can do it. I'll go get the license. And then I won't actually take it on the street, so I don't freak my bride out.
MPS: I've got to ask, what was the inspiration? Since you said, you got the license and never rode it, what was the [00:02:00] inspiration?
Atty. Miriam Airington-Fisher: There was a weekend course that was being offered in Downtown Richmond when I lived there, and just signed up with someone else. And it was like a two day thing. And we passed the test and they had us ride a motorcycle like around the parking lot. And I got the little sign on my license, and then that was it. I never used it. It was just something to do that weekend.
MPS: Nice.
Atty. Miriam Airington-Fisher: Yeah.
MPS: That's cool. It's a good weekend test and activity. And now you've got the badge of honor to prove it. So that's pretty cool.
One of the things I'd love to learn is just a little bit more about your journey.
Miriam's Journey to Law and Entrepreneurship
MPS: From the high level, talk to us a little bit about your journey as an entrepreneurial law firm owner.
Atty. Miriam Airington-Fisher: Sure. So I'm one of those people, I always wanted to be a lawyer since I was a kid. The courtroom dramas. I knew, that's what I wanted to do. So I went straight to law school. Beginning part of my career, I did primarily criminal defense. That's what I really loved. I tried a lot of cases. I ended up in Richmond, Virginia, working for a [00:03:00] phenomenal, small criminal law firm.
I had a wonderful mentor. We're doing jury trials, appellate arguments for circuit stuff. I worked on a death penalty case before. The law was changed in Virginia. So all kinds of just really great phenomenal experience, crammed into the first part of my career. Entrepreneurship was not part of my original plan. I think a lot of law firm owners, I fell into it.
In 2016, my daughter was born and I got divorced. So pretty much in a six week period, I became a mom, I became a single mom, and then I resigned from my law firm, and just to wing it. I think probably like a lot of first time parents, I hadn't really thought out ahead of time, what those demands were going to look like.
I was going really hard before then, working late, going to the jail to meet with clients, prepping on weekends, and that just I couldn't do that anymore. So I didn't really have a backup plan. I wanted to stay in law. I loved law. And I needed to work, [00:04:00] anyway. So I thought, I'll just start a practice.
Like, how hard can it be? I'll figure it out. Famous last words. And Airington-Fisher so, that was where I made the shift from lawyer to lawyer entrepreneur.
Richard James: There's so many things to unpack in that sentence. But first, as a child who was raised by a single mom, and then her parents a little bit, as she was trying to get her feet under her, how blessed your daughter is that she got to experience what it's like to have you raise her through that period. It builds a stronger child. There's challenges. She'll probably need some couch time at some point in the future, as I did. But it just builds, what a strong child she will become. And thank you for taking upon that challenge and running with it.
The second thing I want to address is this idea that like most attorneys, you didn't know you were going to go into business. That's a general concept. I remember, I gave a presentation at a class at a law school virtually, and I just asked everybody there. I said hey, how many of you consider yourself entrepreneurial? [00:05:00] Not a single hand went up. But then later on in the presentation, I said, by the way I'm just curious, how many of you at some point in your legal career believe you're going to have to open up your own firm? And almost every hand went up. So it was interesting, nobody saw themselves as entrepreneurial, but everybody realized that at some point, that might be the path to be a lawyer. You're going to have to open up your own firm.
And then the third thing I want to say really quickly is, what a great industry law is. Because once you have your license, though you had all these skills that you developed in court and being a litigator, you were able to take your license and make the pivot to allow you to build a firm that supported your lifestyle, rather than undermine your lifestyle, which probably meant a new practice area.
And there's so many available to choose from, and you chose one that was near and dear to you.
Choosing Immigration Law
Richard James: Why did you choose immigration?
Atty. Miriam Airington-Fisher: Yeah. So first of all, I totally agree. And I think, we're so lucky to be in a profession where we can be in the driver's seat of that. I'd always done a little bit of [00:06:00] immigration. I'd been interested in it. My grandparents were immigrants. They came to the US after the holocaust as refugees. And I grew up in a community where that was very common, a lot of that generation. So I'd always been interested in it. I was really driven largely to criminal for the drama of it and the fun. Who doesn't watch like an old movie and want to be a trial lawyer? So that's where I ended up.
But immigration was always another interest of mine. I went to law school in Miami. And I worked for the public defenders office there, but I also worked for an immigration firm. When I moved up to Richmond, there were very few truly bilingual lawyers with native level Spanish fluency. And so there was really an opportunity for me there. Even when I was working at the criminal firm, a lot of my clients were not citizens. And so, I started doing immigration that way.
It was really more like over time, I tapered down the criminal and tapered up the immigration. I didn't just do a complete lane change.
And I think, we're saying, it [00:07:00] is criminal defense and trial work in general are more challenging, not impossible to do as a solo, but certainly, immigration has really been an area where we've been able to really grow the firm in a way that I don't think we ever would have been able to scale criminal, that way.
Richard James: Agreed.
MPS: Yeah. I think, immigration is just a very solid practice area, and I love that it just fits into the background you've experienced.
Building a Family-Friendly Law Firm
MPS: One of the things you told us offline was this experience you've had with All-women firm. And so I'm curious, talk to us a little bit about that. Was that by design? Was that happenstance? And what's the experience been like having the opportunity to build a firm like that?
Atty. Miriam Airington-Fisher: Yeah, I feel obligated to say that we don't discriminated against men. We've had men on your team in the past. It just how the chips have fallen now.
I will say, that's very much part of our image is being like family friendly. I'm very open about being a mom. I'm [00:08:00] remarried now. I have three kids. So they're all still in school. Other people on our team are working moms. That's very much part of our culture. And so I think, we tend to attract other people that are looking for that type of culture, which is how we ended up with a currently All-women team.
I would say, even though I started the firm in 2016, the first couple of years, I was treading water. My youngest son was born in 2018. So I was just replicating what I had seen but doing my own thing. And so it was a little bit of a hamster in the wheel type situation. I had some clients, but it was like month to month, I didn't really have a vision for where it was gonna go.
In 2019, that's when I started to really try to educate myself, be a little bit more strategic, learn all the things that I didn't know. And that's when I started to see an opportunity. Could we build a firm and scale it to a degree where we could be a family friendly, women friendly, mom friendly, whatever you want to call it, parent friendly firm? And so, that is very much [00:09:00] part of our image now, locally. And I think, we attract other people that are interested in that.
Richard James: Again, so cool. I just want to make sure, when we talk about family friendly, we say that. That means, if your kid's got to get to school and you're going to be late to work, it's acceptable. Or if your kid is home sick and there's nobody else to help you, you're going to figure out how to get your work done remotely.
Is that like when you say that, is that what you mean? Or what do you mean behind that statement?
Atty. Miriam Airington-Fisher: Yeah. Thank you for asking that because I think that a lot of times. And some of this language has become really kind of cliche, work life balance. And I think, it means different things to different people, so it is important to explain.
Balancing Work and Family Life
Atty. Miriam Airington-Fisher: What it means to me is that, we're not going to sacrifice our personal lives and our family responsibilities.
But I also believe that we don't need to, because I'm also not willing to sacrifice the health of the business, the welfare of our clients. And that's why I started my own practice, because I wanted to figure out how to do both. And I didn't really see a blueprint for that. I think more people are interested in it now than they [00:10:00] were 8, 9 years ago, when I was first looking at this.
But on the sort of professional side of our firm, we are in office, we're full time, we are very much interacting with the public. Most of our clients come into the office, about 85-90% of people request in person meetings. Although we certainly have and we utilize technology and we have the capabilities to be virtual that I think we all figured out we needed during the pandemic, at the end of the day, we're still like a very brick and mortar law firm. And all of our team is full time salaried. We have KPIs, we have revenue goals. It's not loosey goosey. That being said, we have really invested in areas, both on the employment side, the technology side, where we can have that be consistent.
Yes, there's flexibility, if people have child care needs. People have different schedules, and so we might have one paralegal who maybe her husband takes the kids to school and she picks them up, so she works 7-3. Someone else works 8-4. Someone else works 9-5. We [00:11:00] prioritize PTO, so everybody at the firm has at least five weeks of PTO.
I wanted to have enough so that could accommodate like winter break, spring break. We have snow day policies. We try to sync up our holidays so that if schools are closed, we either are closed or we have work from home. Those are the main benefits that we try to have for all of our employees.
Innovative Team Management Strategies
Atty. Miriam Airington-Fisher: On the technology side and on the staffing side, we also have a second team in another time zone. And so that means, our phones are being answered for an extended day, but no one person or no one team is working an extended day. We have our international team has different holidays. And so we have the capacity to take calls on our holidays. And then on their holidays, the Richmond team takes those calls.
A lot of the technology that I'm sure many listeners are already familiar with the case management system, client portals, things like that. There's so much these days that even a small law firm or even a solo can start to utilize, where you can [00:12:00] balance those things. And we can really move away from that traditional concept of lawyers working around the clock, needing to take every call that comes in. There's more options these days.
Evolving Workplace Culture
Richard James: You just gave a master class in how to run a team. So I want to be clear. I was really bad at this at one point in my life, like really bad at this. You had to do pushups if you were late to a meeting and I didn't care if you had a cane, you still had to do the pushups.
And I know that sounds terrible, but I want to be honest about who I was. I was really difficult to work for. And I've morphed now and I see the real value in it.
And MPS, you can talk about what our culture is like and how it's changed. Because I think, what you're doing, Miriam, is extremely important to build this cohesive team.
MPS, what do you think?
MPS: I agree with that. Assuming everyone is paid a fair market based wage for what they do, then the most important thing to most people is freedom and flexibility, whether that's time with family or just time for themselves. [00:13:00] And so likewise, our policy is that unlimited vacation type policy, which is take the time you need. If you're getting your work done, that's all we really care about. And whether you do that, as long as when you have time off, you take time off.
Reducing Team Stress with Flexible Work Culture
MPS: So you're off, like disconnect. And then if you're in, and you've got stuff you've got to go do or run errands or drop a kid off or stay home with a kid, take the time that you need.
As long as the work's getting done, and I find that, it drops the stress level of everybody on the team. People aren't as stressed out about having to do something, worrying about, oh man, I've got a dentist appointment at 10a.m.. I'm not going to be able to make a team meeting, it drops the stress level.
So I think what you've built is very impressive. And I agree with Rich, very much a masterclass and work culture, especially within a law firm. Because candidly, you don't see that often. And so I think, it was very well done.
Overcoming Initial Challenges in Law Firm Management
MPS: I want to go back to your journey a little [00:14:00] bit to provide some tactical feedback for some of the law firm owners out there. So when you were first starting your firm, you had mentioned, there was a period of time you were treading water. What was the biggest obstacle you were facing during that time?
Atty. Miriam Airington-Fisher: I think, it's a tale as old as time. It's being a lawyer and thinking that you're running a business just because you have your own office space. And I was initially just a one woman show. I shared a suite. I had my own office in a suite that I shared with other lawyers. And we shared a receptionist, and that was it.
So I didn't even hire a paralegal for a year. So how do you do it all? I was in court. I don't really even remember where my clients came from, to be honest, because I wasn't marketing. I guess I got lucky for a little bit there. So it's just this idea that you're going to do it all.
And it is scary to incur costs. I know it's easy for me to say, Oh, you hire this person here, that person, but it is challenging in the beginning. But I think that if I were to do something differently, it would have been to be more strategic from the [00:15:00] get go.
Balancing Costs and Profitability
Richard James: Yeah, that point about scared to incur costs. So for those lawyer that's listening right now and is thinking, man, this is so hard because I've got payroll, I got to pay every 2 weeks or twice a month or whatever it is you do. I get it. And the message I want to give to you to that person listening is that, you can have those costs and you can have your profitability.
We spoke offline a little bit about Mike Michalowicz and his book, Profit First. And it's a great place for people to start to learn how to build that formula. But to illustrate that story, I remember a client of mine for many years back when I founded this company, Jamie Miller, he's been a guest on our podcast.
And I remember him saying to me like, Oh my gosh, Rich, we're doing multiple seven figures, and payroll is going to be anywhere between 35 and 45% of gross revenues, if you're doing it right. And so when you run that math on the multiple seven figures, I feel like I've got 100 or 150 or $200,000 in payroll every month. And the bigger it gets, the more [00:16:00] freaks me out. That number keeps getting bigger, and I just get more and more nervous about it.
And of course, he knew inherently that he'd built it for profit, so he didn't have to be nervous about it. But despite the fact that he knew that, there was this little voice inside of him, scared about the fact that this thing is getting so big, it feels like it's getting uncontrollable.
Do you feel that have that feeling at all? Or have you been able to leave that behind, as you've been growing and starting to scale your firm and your costs are going up?
Atty. Miriam Airington-Fisher: I don't know. If it ever goes away, I haven't completely gotten out of it. I'm more comfortable with it now because I have experience from doing that. But sure, anytime you're growing, I think it's a little scary.
The Importance of Being Data-Driven
Atty. Miriam Airington-Fisher: One thing that was really a game changer for me is really being data driven. And I work with a CFO now, and I started that a few years ago. And so, when you're really small and I was this way too, you don't really have a plan, and I'm going to see how much I can make this month, and then I'll pay my expenses, and hopefully there's something left over, [00:17:00] versus having a month or an annual budget, knowing how much you have to hire somebody, keeping an eye on the profit margin, having projections, knowing what your cash flow is. All of that information, all that data having that makes me feel comfortable because when I look at our monthly reports, I know that we're good. I know that, okay, we're ready to hire another attorney.
I think keep tracking data and using data is just a total game changer. And the great thing about that is, that doesn't cost much. Wherever you are in your practice, you can start collecting data and either analyzing yourself or when you're ready, have somebody help you. And then, to me, that's what helps me sleep at night and knowing that we have room to make a move or to grow.
Richard James: Miriam, I get more and more impressed with you with every word that you say. MPS, how rare is it for us to find an attorney who was great at trial work, who chose to become an entrepreneur, and that is comfortable with data or said differently, [00:18:00] arithmetic and measuring all this. It's rare, right? Michael?
MPS: Certainly in the 1% there, Miriam. That's for sure. We don't come by it often.
Atty. Miriam Airington-Fisher: Sleepless nights.
MPS: Yeah. And look, data is the truth, right? And it does make it a little bit easier if you know what the data is, rather than just guessing or going by a feeling. That's a quick way to get pretty anxious, pretty quickly.
What I'd like to know is, you talked about the cost being an obstacle and just trying to run everything as a one woman show. What was the flip of the switch for you? When was that breakthrough moment? What was maybe a tactical thing that you did?
The Turning Point: Investing in Growth
Atty. Miriam Airington-Fisher: So I think a real turning point for me came in 2019. On the personal side, I had my last child, he was in daycare. I had a normal full time schedule at that point. That changed, of course, when my kids started school, then I actually scaled back my work schedule.
But at that time, like 2019, I was had enough time to really think about things. And I saw a mastermind being advertised for [00:19:00] immigration. And because my practice had really evolved into largely immigration, I was very interested in that because as I mentioned in our talk earlier, a lot of the programs are geared towards contingency fee cases, personal injury torts, things like that.
And so sometimes, it's like hard to adapt that to a different model. In my case, we're all flat fee. So when I saw that, it really grabbed my attention. It was at the time, it was very expensive. Can I say how much it cost? How much I remember?
I,
Richard James: Sure. Please
do.
Atty. Miriam Airington-Fisher: like
Richard James: much?
Atty. Miriam Airington-Fisher: I think it was $10,000 for a one year program. It was the first year, so I was like the guinea pig. And I couldn't even believe that I was agreeing to that. It was so stressful for me.
The Power of Masterminds and Continuous Learning
Atty. Miriam Airington-Fisher: But I did it and it was really transformative because it was the first time that I was with other people who wanted to build their firms as a practice.
Practicing in my area, of course, I knew a lot of lawyers, but the lawyers that I knew were doing what I was doing, like hanging out at the courthouse, and these were people who wanted to build businesses. And so [00:20:00] being in that environment was just really opened my eyes to all the things that were possible that I didn't know.
And then I just started in with webinars, and books, and the podcasts. Back then, the Law Entrepreneur was one of the first podcasts I think that I remember, The Game Changers Podcast. And it was like, Oh my God, there's all these lawyers that are business people and their practices are going great, and they're doing great work, and they're making money. Then I just said, that's what I want to do.
I started aligning myself, surrounding myself with other people that were doing that, learning as much as I could, and having that knowledge gave me the confidence to make some of those changes, and to run my firm in a way that was very different than what I saw around me.
Richard James: Again, how awesome it is to be spending some time with you. Jim Rohn said, you will become the average of the five people you spend your most time with. And so right now, I feel like we're getting a real benefit, by being able to hang around you. Because you're talking like an entrepreneur. You're talking like a business owner. You're not talking like a lawyer. You are a great [00:21:00] lawyer, I'm sure. You're not only great at what you used to do, I'm sure, you're great at immigration law and you've probably trained great lawyers that work for you, that you have a great practice. But you are you have become, a great business person. And you have become that great business person be in part because you just decided, you were gonna go spend the time with other great business people.
And the first entry to that was a $10,000 gulp moment, where you were going to pay 10 grand to be in a one year. Just like Little Inside Baseball, MPS, and I just charged our credit card for 10 grand for him and I to go to a two day event. So we get it, right? We do this all the time so that we can be around our peers and people that are smarter than us about the things that we want to grow and learn to do.
And to your point about the contingency based firms, they get a lot of the spotlight for a lot of different reasons. And it doesn't matter why. Our world happens to be made up of mostly criminal family law, immigration, estate planners, bankruptcy, tax [00:22:00] resolution, some business transactional, but fee based, hourly based, flat fee based firms that have to go sell the case, close the deal, get paid the whole nine yards, and then serve the clients, to make sure that everybody's happy. So you can keep the referral machine going.
And so we understand, what you had to go through was a little different than what was out there. And I'm so happy, you found an immigration mastermind that puts you in that direction. And so again, for that person that's listening right now, so I was going to ask a question earlier. What's the best advice you can give to the person that's listening about how to get started? And I think, you just gave it.
The best advice you can give to the attorney who feels like they're struggling with their knowledge of their business acumen, and they want to raise their business acumen up is find a mastermind. And I'm not preaching hours. Don't misunderstand me. Find any mastermind, where you can get around other lawyers who also want to be business owners or already are business owners, and start to learn from them. And like you said, [00:23:00] it's a little bit addictive.
You find out, this is a pretty cool way to run a law firm. Wouldn't you agree?
Atty. Miriam Airington-Fisher: It is. It's really mind blowing. And I've actually remained in touch with the women that were in that original group. The Mastermind doesn't exist anymore. But we've all stayed in touch. We've all grown our businesses. And we get together twice a year, just to be around each other, to be around other people that want to talk about fees and money and profit margins and systems and all that kind of stuff.
Because outside of those sort of circles, there's not always people to talk about that stuff with.
MPS: Absolutely, it's a powerful opportunity, and so I think that was an extremely powerful piece of advice.
Excitement and Passion in Business and Personal Life
MPS: But I've got to ask Miriam, as we're coming toward the end here, what's got you fired up and excited? Could be business, could be personal, could be both?
Atty. Miriam Airington-Fisher: Oh, gosh. I'm really fired up right now. I just came back from eight days in Guatemala. I have a team down there. And we were doing a lot of training on customer service on the client experience, which is something that we haven't really touched on today, [00:24:00] but we're really passionate about here being different.
And I'm just really inspired by the people that work here. Coming back from whether I'm down there, or whether I'm in Richmond, we've got a great team here. And I feel really fortunate to have this job. I loved being a lawyer. And I'm still a lawyer. I guess I'll always be a lawyer, but I love being a business owner, having this puzzle that I can constantly work on and improve and grow.
I wake up every morning without an alarm and get my coffee and I'm ready to roll. And I think that there couldn't be anything better.
Richard James: What a great way to live. No alarm clocks. Maybe other than the kids,
Atty. Miriam Airington-Fisher: I was going to say, I do have a six year old.
Richard James: Yeah. My alarm clock today was our puppy. She didn't have a good night, which means, I didn't have a good night, but that's okay. I went to the gym, and my trainer kicked my butt and said, doesn't matter how bad of a night you had, you're still going to work you out. So I'm like, okay. So he got me in a better place.
I appreciate what you're looking forward to.
The Client Journey and Business Ownership
Richard James: And I appreciate this idea of the client journey. As a matter of fact, MPS and I are in Arnover and [00:25:00] Burvant are creating a presentation, specifically around the client journey.
Interesting enough that you say that. And I say that to you because we believe, that's one of the most important parts of the process. We call it micromanaging the client experience. And really dialing in on how well you can just really provide excellent levels of quality service.
And when you're the business owner and you're not the attorney, so this is a question for the takeaway that I want you to give to the person listening. So now we got this person listening. They're doing all the work themselves. The chief cook and bottle wash of their firm. And they're struggling with this idea of like, how can I get the time?
Speak to how important has it been for you to be able to be the business owner and flip the switch on how much time you spend working on the business, rather than in the business, being the lawyer so that you can move your firm for. A scale from 1-10. One, being it's not very important at all. And you could have did it by just being a full time lawyer. And 10, it's like oxygen. You really needed to make that switch in order to grow your firm. Where do you think you're at?
Atty. Miriam Airington-Fisher: [00:26:00] Oh, a 10. You've got to do it. I know someone said, I think it was John Gomez from Gomez Trial Lawyers. I heard him say once, you can't be running the firm from the courtroom.
Richard James: That's great. What great advice.
Atty. Miriam Airington-Fisher: Yeah.
Final Thoughts and Contact Information
MPS: Miriam, we talked pre-show about how part of this is giving that glimmer of hope of what can be accomplished. And more than positive you delivered on that today So I appreciate your time and being here, and sharing everything you have. You're definitely an inspiration to a lot of law firm owners listening to this. And to the law firm owners listening to this, Wow, what a show today.
Make sure to hit that subscribe or follow button, depending on where you're listening or watching. And then show some love down in the comments for Miriam. This was absolutely a fantastic episode.
So thank you for being here.
Atty. Miriam Airington-Fisher: Thank you guys so much.
Richard James: Hey, Miriam, if anybody could get a hold of you where you'd like to direct them if they have any questions for you and they just wanted to learn more or chat or whatever and you should limit this. Don't give your cell [00:27:00] phone. But is there any way that they could get a hold of you, if they wanted to?
Atty. Miriam Airington-Fisher: Yeah, of course. I'm on all the social media channels. My Instagram handle is Lawyer Like a Mother. And that's probably the best way to send me a DM. And I'd love to talk to my fellow lawyers, fellow business owners.
Richard James: Thank you so much for being here. It's truly been our pleasure to have this conversation with you.
Atty. Miriam Airington-Fisher: Thank you so much.
MPS: That's the pod..