Imogen,

how are you?

I'm good.

I'm

good.

how

are you.

we're great.

It's not windy today.

I'm good, Ness.

so imagine

you're, you're an

architect and your

company's IP

architecture,

and you design

some pretty cool

stuff, don't you?

Thank you.

Aw, thanks, Matt.

you Like it.

So anyone that might

not know who you

are, you've designed,

I know the house.

I don't know

if you've got a

name for it.

It's the

one that's been

everywhere.

I forget the

location.

The Jackie Winter

Waters project

in Walkerville.

Yep.

And it's been

everywhere.

And it's like the

little cool colored

external where it's

all been painted

different colors.

And we can put up a

link to it later, but

I love that building.

It's so cool.

That's my COVID baby.

What I did in COVID.

, so that was a fun thing

to work on while the

world was imploding.

and so you designed

it during COVID,

or was it pre

COVID design built in

COVID?

Designed during

COVID, documented

during COVID, and then

trying to find a

builder during COVID,

, and then I couldn't

find any local builders

who wanted to do

something so small.

You know, all the

local builders down in

South Gippsland working

on projects that

are, over a million

dollars and I was

coming to them with

a project that's 60

square meters with a

budget of 200, 000.

No, thanks.

That was a 200,

000 project.

well, it ended up

being a little bit

more than that.

Okay.

But I was Conversing

with, , Mark Van Handel

during that time.

And I was like, Mark,

can you build this?

And he was like, okay.

And so we got to work

on that together,

which is really

amazing and fun and

a good learning

experience

for all of us.

So

Is it a holiday

house?

Yes.

Or is it just a little

weekend, just a wee

little weekend shack?

And then you've

got the outside of

it, it's got like,

is it like got a face?

Is that what

the

design is?

Or did you design all

the colorful design

on the outside?

Or how does that

come about?

The property is owned

by Jeremy and Lorelei

from the Jackie

Winter Group, which

is an art agency.

And so they , got

some artists from

the agency to design

and paint that mural.

So that was completely

their remit that

they came up with.

And I think it's

really, really

beautiful.

Yeah, Imogen.

So, so yeah take us

back to the start.

Where did the

architecture

start for you?

Well, architecture

started for me

actually when I was

A kid because my

parents built their

own house when I was

a baby and it was a

mud brick house with

recycled materials

that they built with

their own hands.

And I lived in

that house for

probably 16 years

and you could see.

how it was built

and it had lots of

texture and it was

passive solar design.

And I, I didn't realize

at the time, but it

was really influential

on, on me and when I

decided to Go to uni,

I was like, I'm going

to do architecture

there was one subject

maybe that was about

sustainability and

passive solar design

the rest of it was

just design in general

or construction,

but nothing really

about sustainability

or using recycled

materials or, Where

materials come from

anything like that.

So then I've

got a little bit

disillusioned in

architecture school.

and I took a break and

decided to go overseas

and I studied in

Denmark for a while.

And that was really a

much more personal led

study, in a way, where

you got to explore

things that you were

really interested in

Was that, architecture

that you studied

in Denmark?

and, one to one design.

Um, and I was

really interested

in the human scale.

So designing that

kind of one to one

furniture size things.

So I guess my

interest in small,

User designed human

scaled architecture

really started then.

And so I was re

inspired to continue

my architecture degree

back in Melbourne.

and then when I

finished uni, I started

working for a small

architect firm, it was

just a single person

who just started their

own architecture firm.

So sole practitioner

and I joined him quite

early in his journey to

starting his company.

so that was a really

amazing experience.

Just.

Learning from first

principles with him.

So that was nest

architects and I

ended up staying there

for about 9 years,

almost 10 years.

and we did have a

Sustainability focus,

but it was still

that sort of passive

solar design using

recycled materials.

Hadn't quite got to

the passive house yet.

you've talked about

passive solar design

a couple of times

over the last couple

of minutes and I

know Matt and I

bang on quite a bit

about passive house.

For those who don't

know what Passive

solar design is.

Can you give us

your elevator pitch

as to what passive

solar design is?

Okay, so passive

solar design is

about designing with

your environment.

So, orientating

your house to have

most of your glazing

facing north.

Cross ventilation

thermal mass in your

building so that heat

from the sun can warm

up heavy materials

and in the house and

then when the sun

goes down, those heavy

materials release the

heat Into the home.

So I guess it's a

lot of the principles

that are also used

in passive house.

But more about working

with the sun, shading,

and That's not a very

it's perfect.

I always say that

passive house

is passive solar

on steroids.

but I also ask

the question with

passive solar is

like, isn't that

just doing your job?

Like, shouldn't that

just be the, like,

for me, it's like

you're using the sun

to get free energy.

, and when someone

celebrates, oh, we

did a passive solar

design, I'm like, well,

isn't that just like

101 of architecture?

It's often

not the case.

But

I think it's weird

that we have to

celebrate things

like passive solar

and passive house as

being these champions.

But really like.

Why can't that just

be like normal?

Like you go, you say

you go back to when was

it, when you studied

overseas and all the

stuff that you learned.

And that was a

long time ago.

I would be fair to say

that the Australian

system of teaching

architecture is

still not even half

of what that was or

Probably not, but

I do think they're

doing a lot better.

I mean, they have

whole design studios

that are about.

Sustainability and

passive solar design

whereas it was just

a kind of an elective

subject back when I

studied architecture.

think people are more

educated about it.

speaking about passive

house, you know, six or

seven years ago, when

I first drank the Kool

Aid and got into like,

it was a real challenge

to try and get.

People across the line

even to wrap their

buildings well, whereas

I feel now, people

know about it and they

expect that that's

what's going to happen.

You know, they

expect that you're

going to make a

building airtight.

And I guess they

just expect that

you can design it

for orientation now.

Well, I mean, you

know, I know we kind

of operate in a little

bit of a bubble here,

but even the broader

market, I'm feeling

now, particularly

with the seven star.

rating coming in and

orientation plays

a massive part in

actually getting

to that new seven

star standard.

moRe people are

expecting it.

So you said the

word sustainability.

, what does that

mean to you now?

But then like, what

did it mean to you

originally when

you're studying?

And obviously the big

change in that, time

of now versus then.

And if I asked you the

same question probably

10 years, there's going

to be a whole different

answer as well.

True, true.

I guess that's the

cool thing about

sustainability.

It's continuously

morphing as, you know,

research is done.

we learn more

about buildings.

It's going to change.

So, yeah, When I was

at NEST, we made sure

that every building

that we designed was

using the Passive Solar

Principles, and we also

really enjoyed working

with recycled materials

or lots of timber,

cladding, which we knew

was a renewable source.

what set us apart

is we weren't.

Doing, you know, big

marble slab interiors

and using materials

that we're going to do

more harm than good.

So that sort of thing.

So being Responsible,

Responsible,

yes, responsible

material selections.

That's the word

I'm looking for.

And now sustainability

is about, for

me, reducing our

operational energy

in our homes.

It's about creating

comfortable homes.

And.

It's also about

responsible material

usage, and, low carbon

materials as well.

because we're looking

at operational

energy, also looking

at embodied energy

of the materials

that we're using.

So it's, along the

same trajectory,

but a little bit

more specific.

And.

Scientific, rather

than feeling our way,

when you have all

these architects then

complaining about,

oh, the seven stars

and it's so hard now,

what is your answer to

Rise to the challenge.

it's easy to start,

you know, resting

on your laurels and

using the knowledge

that you have and

just replicating that.

But what I really

love about Being an

architect is constantly

challenging myself,

constantly, researching

best ways of doing

things and, you know,

using every project as

a learning experience

on how to design

better, build better.

Do better and we owe

it to ourselves and our

future generations to

do the best that we can

and not just do what's

comfortable and easy.

what I've found really

interesting about what

we've been talking

about so far, Imogen,

and I've written a

whole bunch of like

little words down as,

as we've been going.

I've got passive

solar, mud brick,

recycled materials,

Denmark size,

feel, and science.

All of the things

that you've talked

about here, maybe

exclude the Denmark

part, are things that

have been part of

my journey as well.

Because I know back

in the day when I

first started Sanctum

Homes about 10 years

ago, I was like,

I'm a sustainable

builder, right?

I, made this broad

sort of sweeping,

comment, I'm a

sustainable builder.

And.

I think the biggest

difference from back

then to now, and I

think you've hit the

nail on the head with

your feel comment

where you kind of

feel like you're

making a difference,

10, 15 years ago,

whereas now it's

backed up by science.

And I think that

was the biggest

shift for me.

That was the

biggest aha moment.

The, you know,

drinking of the Kool

Aid moment for me

where I, Found passive

house, you know, I

feel like it's like

finding a religion.

All of a sudden you've

got these metrics that

you can actually layer

over your business.

And even though I

think passive soul

is an amazing thing,

a hundred percent,

I think it's a

great approach or

starting point for a

really good design.

When you start layering

on the building physics

and the science on top

of it, I feel you're

getting a much better

Building envelope as

well as getting the

benefits from, say, a

passive solar design.

am curious to kind

of dive into the

sustainability thing,

because there are

people that would

argue that by wrapping

buildings with, you

know, these plastic

linings on the inside

and putting all these

extra mechanical

components into a

building are probably

adding to the embodied

carbon and that may or

may not be considered

as sustainable

in their mind.

What are your thoughts

on, I guess that

move from maybe a

more natural feel and

passive solar design

with your mud bricks

and recycle materials

to now designing

passive houses, which

have, admittedly more

components to it.

What are your

thoughts on that?

I live in a passive

solar House that was

designed in 2010 and

built in 2011 or 2012.

And recycled

brick, it has a

roof garden that's

orientated correctly.

It's got cross

ventilation and it's

really comfortable

to live in for

half of the year.

It's really expensive

to heat it works

really well in summer.

And it.

costs a lot to

heat in winter.

And so, I did the

passive house course.

I was like, I

know now how I can

improve this building

that I live in.

And one of the first

things I did after

I did the Passive

House course was

start, I put some

decentralized HRVs in.

So the house went

from being completely,

naturally cooled with

hydronic heating to

having mechanical

ventilation 24 7.

so no cooling.

We don't have any air

conditioning or fans or

anything in our house.

And mostly that's

fine and then we

have hydronic slab

heating, for winter

how does that go

with no cooling?

fine.

I mean, the last few

years, we haven't had

that many hot summers.

So it's been fine.

but we do a lot of

active sort of dropping

of blinds and managing

the solar gains and in

the house and

night purging,

on those hot days,

Are you finding

that your house is

constantly sitting

at a certain degrees

or are you finding

there's overheating?

it's usually stays

about 6 or 7 degrees

cooler than the

outside temperature.

So if it's 30 degrees

outside, it's like 25.

Um, but if over a

course of, a week of

hot weather starts

to increase and

then it takes a long

time to cool down

because there's a

lot of thermal mass.

How about humidity then

uh, yeah, really

humid internally.

And so we have to purge

a lot and we did find

also that, everyone

does this, you know,

in winter, you don't

open your windows

because it's freezing

outside and you're

heating your house.

You don't want to have

natural ventilation

because you're going

to lose all that heat

that you've expensively

put into your house.

So, we were finding

that we're waking

up in the mornings

with condensation

on our windows.

You know, mold would

grow on the seals and

that sort of thing.

And I didn't know

before I did the

passive house course

that was something

that we could prevent.

And so as soon as I

did the passive house

course, I was like,

could diagnose all

of the faults of the

passive solar house.

And we had

decentralized heat

recovery ventilation

units put in.

I had a air quality

sensor in the house

a few months before,

and then afterwards,

and the difference

was incredible, in

terms of reducing the

humidity we didn't

have any condensation

on our windows

anymore, we didn't

have mold growing on

our ceilings, and,

um, particulate matter

in the air was Much

lower, and I could see

for myself the health

benefits and also,

the energy efficiency

benefits of not having

to, you know, Open

the windows when the

heaters on of having

those mechanical

systems installed.

I reckon you've kind

of answered my question

in like a really

lived, experience

way which is great.

So thank you.

Cause you're kind

of setting a picture

of like really good

passive solar design

and how that actually

works and, you know,

the fundamentals of

it, but you know,

things that we now know

when you've partnered

with a bit of science

and education about.

You know, air quality

and ventilation and

all the, all the

things that we know.

And, I try when

we're doing these

podcasts to make it

really not all about

passive house, but

it all keeps kind of

pointing back that way.

So to summarize.

in my mind by

putting some of these

other components

into a building.

So maybe your internal

building wraps

making more airtight.

Maybe these, you

know, mechanical

ventilations with their

plastic pipes and all

that kind of stuff.

Yes.

There's more

embodied carbon.

Yes.

There's a bit more

plastic in it, but

we're probably having

a much more healthy

internal environment

within the home and

we're saving energy.

So the cost of the

planet and cost

of your pocket for

generating that energy,

if you don't have

solar is reducing

the operational

carbon within the

building as well.

So, I'm sure there's

lots of more people

smarter than me who

can run the numbers,

but surely there's a

balance there from your

embodied carbon and

operational carbon.

And hopefully

they kind of,

smart.

I remember hearing

somewhere about the

operational energy is

around 90 percent or

something like that.

And the embodied energy

in houses accounts

for 10 percent of the

energy of a house or

a building over the

course of its lifetime.

So, if we can

reduce most of that

Operational energy then

we can start to reduce

also the embodied

energy as well.

But I think, yeah,

I'm pretty sure Jeremy

Spencer's put some good

data and graphs on the

Sustainable Builders

Alliance website

about that stuff.

So if you're curious,

pop over to the sba.

com.

au.

So a smart cookie.

you had a small house.

Yes.

and that goes back to

your days of studying

like, less is more

sometimes, but also

bigger is not better.

And we have a huge

problem in Australia.

We build the biggest

houses in the world.

So when you have

people come to you as

an architect and go,

we want the theater

and the mudroom and

the 15th toilet.

How do you go

about having that

conversation of

explaining bigger

is not better?

Because obviously

what you're producing

is awesome and it's

small and it suits

what the client needs.

exactly.

Yeah, so I guess

the people who are

coming to my practice

are not the people

who are looking

for 15 bathrooms

in their house.

So, 1 of the 1st

conversations I have

with people when I'm

talking about designing

their houses to say

that we build as space

efficiently as we can.

And that usually comes

down to the budget,

usually people's

budget and then their

brief don't match.

And so it's about

reducing how much

space you actually

need to build For their

budget, but there's

lots of really clever

ways of using space

where we don't have to

have, a guest bedroom

and a study and a

kid's living area,

and butler's pantries

and blah, blah, blah,

blah, blah, blah, all

of the things that we

think that we need.

And that's one of my

favorite things about

being an architect is

how to make people's

briefs work in.

The most compact

building envelope that

we, we can and then

that helps them save

their budget for some

of the more important

things, like, the

energy efficiency

things, or, some nice

tiles, all that sort of

thing.

Yeah,

What are some of the

questions that you ask

your clients when they

start their design

journey with you?

Cause I reckon you're

doing it successfully

at the moment.

So some of the

questions that you're

asking your clients

and the, and the things

that you're challenging

your clients on, This

information could

and should be shared

to everyone because

this is going to get

them thinking about

what they actually

need in their homes

which hopefully

will result in some

other people not

building big houses.

So what are some of

the questions that

you ask at the very

beginning of their

design journey?

we asked some really

specific questions of

our clients about what

are the must haves?

Like, what are the

non negotiables?

And then what are

the nice to haves?

, and then we also ask,

like, really specific

questions about how

long are they going to

live in this house for?

do they have kids?

Will they have

kids in the future?

Will they be living

in this house when

the kids have left?

So lots of really.

Detailed questions

about how much space

do they actually need

rather than just taking

their brief of 15

bathrooms or however

many bathrooms and

trying to really get

to the real core of

what, how they want

to live in this house.

So there's, you

3 bathrooms that

you've just.

you want to go, we

can create a powder

room, we can make

a bathroom, that's

actually a shower and

basin room, and we

can make another room

that's like the bath

the vanity, and then so

we've kind of condensed

three bathrooms

into 2 or 1 1, 5, or

something like that.

So, bye.

Drilling down into the,

how people are living

to the house rather

than just blindly

asking them how many

rooms that they want.

We can really use our

design skills to push

the boundaries of

what it is, how people

can live in these

houses and how small

we can actually make

it and how efficient

we can make it.

Um,

that I really loved

about that explanation

just then Imogen,

was that you, you

ask the clients how

they see the house

changing over time.

And like, if we

think about true

sustainability,

it's something

that's going to last

for a long time.

I love when clients

say, this is our

forever home.

We're like, amazing.

Okay.

How are you going

to live in this home

in 20 years time?

Right?

You've got stairs here.

Do we need to put

a place for a lift?

Do we need to put

some timbers in the

wall for grab rails

and stuff like that?

Do we need to

make some of the

doors a bit wider?

just in case

something happens.

asking these questions,

it challenges people

to really think about

how the house can adapt

and change over time.

And if we can put in

place, things in a

room, maybe plumbing

in a wall somewhere,

or I don't know some

creative joinery in

another room that could

be a playroom, but it

can also be a study.

As well, or a

spare bedroom.

Like these are really

great questions.

And as, as you start

sort of unpacking these

ideas from the clients

they probably remove

the original idea that

I have in their head

and they start thinking

about something

completely different.

I know when we were

going through our

design at our last

place, what we ended

up with and what I

originally thought

it was going to

be a wildly apart.

Because the right

questions were

asked of me.

At things that

I wouldn't have

even thought of.

So that's why I was

interested to know some

of the questions you

asked, because mass

market, as you said, is

trying to keep up with

the person next door.

And that's probably

not what they want.

So really trying

to understand what

they want and what

they need over the

life of their home

is super important.

And then they

probably do realize

that they don't need

four bedrooms and

eight bathrooms.

So do you think the

issue that we 5%,

5 percent of houses

in Australia are

designed by architects

because not with

any disrespect to

draftees, essentially

they spit out a house.

I don't use much

Facebook, but I do see

some of those Facebook

groups where it's like,

can you rate my design?

And I look at it,

I'm like, bleh,

Like they are so

shit, the design.

And that whole volume

building industry

of like more,

more, more, more.

But if we shifted

our mindset and

more architects

were designing our

houses, maybe we could

get less is more.

And then the cost

of pricing comes

down because the

houses aren't as big.

Oh,

think so.

I also think that the

real estate industry

has a lot to answer

for it as well because

we get challenged all

the time by clients

who say, oh, well,

I need to make my

house a certain size

or have this many

bedrooms and bathrooms

from resale value.

And I think trying to

talk about, well, if

you build a house that

you really love, and

it's really comfortable

and healthy, someone

else is also going to

value those things.

It's not just trying

to build something or

design something that

is going to be, match

the status quo about

what is best for you.

What value, two car

garage, four bedroom,

three bathroom, blah,

blah, blah, blah, blah.

And I think the more

we do that and the

more that gets sold

and we can see what

their value is in the

real estate market

when you have designed

something that's space

efficient and beautiful

and comfortable and

healthy and energy

efficient and it has a

premium on it because

everyone wants that.

I think that

will eventually.

Turn the tides a

little bit to say,

people start to expect

that and want that.

so on resale value,

this is one of my

big pain points.

I totally agree.

So I actually did a

bit of research on

this about a year ago.

The average Australian

lives in their

house for about

11 to 12 years.

And that is actually.

People living in them

longer than they ever

have before, all right?

So , if we're living

in a house for 11, 12

years on average, when,

oh, I need to worry

about resale value,

if we worry about that

exact question, what,

there's a lot that can

change in 11, 12 years.

So if you're worried

about that to

then sell it in 12

years, that, that

is just ridiculous.

Like, how about you

design a house for you,

for your situation,

and then if someone

else buys it, you know

what, most likely they

will buy it because

they see the same.

Now, I'll talk about

Nicole and our house

for a second, like we

designed it for us,

not for anyone else.

I don't give a f k

about resale value

because we're going to

live there long enough

that hopefully that

when the time comes,

we do want to sell it,

there will be people

that have the same

idea and mindset as us.

It goes for houses

when people are

like, Oh, we're only

going to build a

two bedroom house.

You know what?

There's always people

only looking for

a two bed house.

and all that cost that

it takes and that time

to then build those

extra two bedrooms

because the real

estate agent told you.

You've got to heat

that, you've got to

fit it out, you've

got to cool it, you've

got to look after

it, maintain it.

It's not worth it.

It costs you

more to build it.

Therefore, you're

borrowing against the

bank on that extra

room or two rooms of,

I don't know, 40, 50

square meters of space.

Like it's just silly.

if you're designing

to the current trends

in 12 years time.

the market's not

going to want it.

Like, you talked about

mud brick, recycled

material, timber and

all that kind of stuff.

For me, these

items are timeless.

Like, I still walk

into homes that have

mud brick walls and

recycled bricks and

exposed timber beams.

And that's something

that I think will

be beautiful for the

next 20, 30 years.

Just like it's been

beautiful for the

past 20 or 30 years.

Like all the

current fads that

you're seeing on Matt's

favorite show, The

Block, are going to

be redundant when the

next season of The

Block comes around.

even the most stupid

thing about the block

they sell is like

it's up to, up to

date with trends.

It is so far

behind time.

Like, it's not

even on trend.

knew the block

was going to be

triggering for Maddie.

It's so, like,

let's be honest,

like 15 Skylights.

Oh, like they

haven't been funded.

Yeah,

totally.

we're living in a

climate emergency.

We need to be designing

resilient buildings.

If if our buildings

that we're building now

are going to have to

withstand Temperatures

beyond what we have

experienced before

in our climate or,

potentially more

damaging storms, et

cetera, et cetera,

we're also living in

a, energy cost crisis.

Our houses are going

to cost more and more

to heat and cool.

The smaller and more

compact and the easier

to maintain buildings

are going to be

the ones that will.

Support us as humans

in, you know, 20 years

time or 50 years time.

I sometimes I think

about those volume

build houses and

they're just going

to be so derelict

by that time that

they already are.

They're not, not

by that time.

Come on, they

already are.

They're actually

derelict and in respect

to anyone that buys

one or whatever, but

like they're derelict

most of the time

before.

That, that monument

brick color, like,

oh, I hate it.

But we talk

about Pete being

responsible and stuff.

End.

There's people like you

trying really hard and

there's barriers, like

one, there's policy

barriers by politicians

and government, like,

they actively don't do

it, but I feel one of

the biggest barriers

is councils, especially

around heritage and

whilst I respect

heritage, heritage

aren't allowing us to

move forward building

sustainable buildings.

I feel personally.

What are your thoughts?

I don't know.

I know you don't want

to open your mouth

maybe too much because

it might interfere

with projects that you

might have in heritage

spaces, but I think

that town planners and

heritage advisors need

to realize they're

not architects.

I think if we're

looking through the

lens of building.

Sustainable

energy efficient

buildings, then yes,

I agree with you.

I feel there needs to

be something within

policy that provides

a pathway through, but

if we're challenging

heritage and town

planners, just to

build whatever the

fuck you want, I

disagree with that.

like, old buildings

have value, I think,

from a streetscape

point of view and

an attractiveness

to certain suburbs,

100 percent

agree with that.

But I think there needs

to be 100 percent a

pathway, if you're

making it more energy

efficient and, uh,

like, we're having

this at the moment

with a project we're

working on with, um,

Positive Footprints,

Council are pushing

back, no, you can't

do that, you can't do

that, and all we're

trying to do is provide

a beautiful, healthy,

comfortable home,

and they're saying,

no, you need to keep

the forefront rooms,

but that's bonkers.

Because I can't do

anything to that

existing bluestone

structure without

pulling a lot of

that stuff down.

the classic one is the

simple one that I get.

It's like, why can't

we replace the old

front windows with a

single glaze with new

triple glaze windows?

They're old timber

windows and their

common issue is, oh,

well, you can't build

them like you used to.

Well, you know what?

You can.

And how about you

hold the builder

responsible for making

sure it matches.

And then you can come

out as cancel and they

can make money off this

to do an inspection to

make sure it matches.

It's very simple.

It's a win win for

everyone.

They get the same look.

It

performs just as well.

maybe what the answer

is here is that we need

to provide councils

with the data and the

science to show how

energy efficient we

can make this building

if we do these.

Things like kibble

glazing or new print

windows and then using

that as a tool to

argue why it's really

important because

we don't need to do

energy reports until

after town planning.

So, we might just

say something in our

report to say, yeah,

we're going to make

this a 7 star, 8 star

house or a passive

house, but for planning

Purposes you don't need

to prove it to them,

it becomes a condition

on the planning

permit that you've

got to meet certain

energy efficient

criterias, yeah?

Like, to me,

that's simple.

It's, it's literally a

couple extra lines in

the planning permit.

they make you do

an ESD report now.

Well, I had to

because apparently

a passive house

wasn't sustainable,

which made no sense.

So they valued

putting like a

bike out the front.

I just want to

challenge you just

for one second, Matt.

I think that

those things are

still important.

Like, I feel like

if They've obviously

got a plan and, you

know, they want to

encourage more people

to ride their bikes

and have less cars

and stuff like that.

like, I get that.

I mean, I guess we

also look at this

through a different

lens than what

they're looking at.

Like, I think both

of them need to

come together for

us to have really

successful buildings

and successful

neighborhoods.

I think all of it

needs to be

a hundred, a

hundred percent.

grown up in

Williamstown

and I'm all for

heritage buildings.

Totally out of respect.

I think we need

to refurbish them.

There's some times

where the building

needs to be detonated,

but you need to

give the freedom to

the architect and

the builders and

design that house.

It can look

exactly the same.

We can build it to

look exactly the same.

So if they're all

so worried about

that streetscape.

How about you allow us

to build them and keep

that and that before

you build them durable

enough, it's going to

last for another 100

years and then you can

maintain that for such

a long period of time.

They're built better.

They're built well.

They're sustainable.

It ticks every

single box.

The problem is it's a

subjective system where

there's no pathway to

understand what can

and can't be done.

It's up to one

person who can make

a decision and can't

be held accountable.

That's the problem.

I do agree.

You're going

to need bikes.

We need to be looking

at trees, all these

other things and

landscaping, but.

like, when I had the

conversation with

Council in my house,

Maradona Passive

House, they're

like, no, you need

to build a 6 stars.

I was like, yeah,

that's the code.

I get that.

That's the

minimum standards.

They're like,

well, that's what

we care about.

And I'm like,

yeah, I'm building

a Passive House.

This is what

we're doing.

They're numpties.

That's all they are.

well, see, again, I'm

going to disagree just,

just a little bit.

And I guess this

is your experience

in your council.

And, we've had some

really positive

experience with

councils through some

of the work we've

done with Sustainable

Bills Alliance.

And I'm going to give

a big shout out to

Kingston, They're

super progressive.

And they're really,

really invested

in encouraging

developments like

the one we did

down in Mentone.

I know we're really

interested in that.

I feel that there is

a growing number of

councils who are on

board with this, and I

feel that more examples

of other councils doing

really great things

is going to encourage

the next council to do

really great things.

So, I mean,

I

offered Maradona City

Council to come through

as a full tour, the

whole planning team,

and I'll take them to

the three Passive House

projects we have, which

is around the area,

and we can explain why

they're beneficial.

We're not interested

one little bit.

So I gave them

the option.

That's what's

frustrating.

you know what, if I

was you, I'd be 100

percent frustrated too.

And I think it is

probably worth speaking

out about that, but

I think it's also

important to also

acknowledge that

there are some good

councillors out there

doing some, doing some

positive things to,

totally.

Like you, you had

that MP come through

one of your projects

and you did that

day in one of yours.

I I had, Peter Henfil

who is the local mayor

in Williamstown come

through our Forest

Street Passive House.

Super interested.

Awesome.

Like

okay, you have to

aim higher up in

the council then,

because the planners.

They're just

trying to get by

doing the job

that

robots.

Yeah.

And it's not their

fault either.

Yeah.

I'm not blaming, I'm

blaming the system

and I'm blaming the

higher up people.

It's not the general

planner that's running

through a case.

, it's not their fault.

They're doing

their job.

I respect that.

But I know I've gone

off topic a ton and I'm

also conscious on time.

I think it's a

really valuable

and interesting

conversation and

it's nice to hear it

from, from a designer

side as, as well.

Sorry, Matt, I'll

throw back over to you.

with two things.

Now, I recently was

speaking to someone,

and I asked them the

question, and this

is not a builder or

architect, who's the

best plans that they've

ever come across,

and instantly their

words were Imogen

from IP Architecture.

So what makes

your plan so good?

I hear this a lot too,

lots of people say, oh

yeah, thanks for the

really clear plans.

One of the things

that's Really

interesting to me

is like drawings is

communication, like

what you're trying

to communicate and

who you're trying

to communicate

to um, clients

who might not be.

Used to reading.

Drawings make sure that

each drawing that you

do is talking about

the things that who's

going to read it.

So, plumbers,

electricians,

carpenters, where are

you dimensioning to?

All of these sorts

of things I think

are really good to

think about when

you're doing drawings.

Um, Our drawing

packages are quite big.

Big, you know, maybe

30 to 50 pages.

So, there's lots of

details and I guess

the point is for me

is that we communicate

as much as possible

up front so that the

builder can price it

accurately and then

not need to call me

every day to say, hey,

what does this mean?

Or what did

you want here?

Or that sort of

thing that is all

worked out from

the very beginning.

Outset, not to say

that things change

on site, which they

do all the time.

But if you've

communicated the

design intent and how

you think it's going

to be built, it's

really easy, easier

for people to go.

Okay, I can see where

you're going with this

and then come back

with an alternative.

I can see you're

trying to achieve this.

How about we do this

and then it's really

easy to have that

conversation because

if you haven't got the

detail there to begin

with, then there's no

starting point for that

kind of conversation.

And I guess it's also

like risk management.

I need to know

that this building,

these buildings that

we're designing are.

Achievable and they're

going to look good.

you definitely

do that one.

You tick, you

tick the box.

Like, I've got some

of your concept plans.

I was blown away how

good they are just FYI,

but as you said, they

need to look good.

And definitely you

are an A student

in that part of the

thing because they

look fucking sexy.

And I know we said

we weren't going to

swear, but I think

it's well deserved

for that exact thing.

love, I just love

this narrative around

communication, you

know, that the drawings

communicate an idea

that you've had, but

you're also thinking

about how you're then

going to communicate

that to the client

and the plumbers and

the sparkies and the

carpenters and even

the engineers that are

going to be picking

up these drawings.

So actually thinking

about who's the

end user of this,

these drawings is.

Such a great

explanation of why

they're so good.

But even just the fact

that you make them A3

as a builder, that is

just music to my ears.

Alright

I want to go back to

our first bit of the

conversation we started

and finish on this.

Now, you said

you grew up in a

mud brick house.

Is the goal to design

yourself or design

a client a mud brick

house at some point?

Yeah, I mean, I gave a

talk to some students

at Melbourne Uni

where I talked about

my journey throughout

architecture and I,

I realized that, the

house that I lived

in the very beginning

of my life is kind of

where my trajectory as

an architect is going

to go full circle.

And I hope to one day,

maybe even for myself,

design a house that is.

Passive house certified

that is completely

made out of natural

recycled materials, you

know, that is amazing.

The dream.

And so if there's

any potential

clients out there

who want to do that.

on potential clients,

how do people get

in touch with you

yeah, you can Google

me or Instagram.

Most of our

clients are word

of mouth currently.

Which we talked about

at the beginning.

It's not super

sustainable, but it's

really nice because

the people who are

recommended to me

are people who have

experience some some

experience with me.

So I'm attracting

like minded people who

have similar values.

So that makes my

role really easy

because I don't have

to convince people.

To design smaller,

efficient, healthy,

comfortable homes.

They're coming to

me already for that.

But to get to that

next level where we're

trying to convince

people who haven't

been convinced yet

website's going to be

helpful and then some

really good exemplary

buildings that we can

use to educate people.

It's going to be

And that's IP

underscore architecture

on Instagram as well.

And, or if you

can't get onto it,

we can always reach

out to Hamish and

I, and we can put

you onto Imogen.

I mean, Imogen,

thank you so much

for coming along and,

and thanks for coming

on another journey.

That is the Mindful

Builder Podcast.

We should have

just named it the

chaos podcast.

Oh my God.