And I admit, I fully admit to what I am about to say. And I and I

thought I was like, God, what kind of a sick joke is this? I don't know whether I'm living or dying

And I get this call from Christian Light that wants me to be on their pastoral advisory.

Well, what that was, was a confirmation that I wasn't going anywhere soon.

Welcome to this episode of Anabaptist Perspectives. We are here today with Arvin Martin.

We plan to talk about cancer today. But before we begin, Arvin, why don't you introduce yourself to

us? Okay, well, like you said, my name is Arvin Martin. I've lived near Hagerstown, Maryland

practically all my life. I've been married to my wife Alice for 53 years.

Have, uh, three children and 8 or 9 grandchildren, depending on how you

count. I'm a semi-retired pastor at Mallow Mennonite Church, which is part of the Cumberland

Valley Conference. For a job I spent the past 26 years

in tree moving, tree transplanting/ nursery partners with my son in

law. Uh, last year, about this time, we sold the business. And so

I'm working for the new company two days a week, semi-retired from that. I fancy myself to be

a wordsmith. And I've written a number of articles and periodicals. Somebody

may have heard my name there. And also, I think back in 2018, I wrote a book called Walking the

Talk. So there's a few thousand people who would have that book. Um, I actually was not aware of

that book until you told me about it. Um, if anybody wants to buy it. Where would they go to

find it? Christian light. Christian light. Okay, well, thank you for the introduction. It's a pleasure to

have you here. I read your article from the late 2024 edition of The Messenger by

Cumberland Valley Mennonite Conference, and you opened the article with an astounding statistic

about the number of people who have cancer at some point in their life. I was surprised by

how high the number was, but it connected with me because of the actually quite high number of

people in my own life friends, family, otherwise who have had cancer. Sometimes young, sometimes old.

Do you remember what the statistics there are? I do, um,

and this is just not one study. I went over some different studies and different,

different medical things to find this and the and the average is about 39%

of women will get some kind of cancer in their lifetime and men right around 41%.

Mhm. Which really means that practically everybody is going to be con, uh, come in

contact with it at some point in their life. Um, you know, my first contact was my

grandfather had colon cancer when I was and died when I was six years old. So that was my first

exposure. Uh, my mother passed away from, uh, leukemia

when I, when she was 42, I think 42 and, uh, my own. And

so practically everybody that you meet is going to be impacted by it somewhere or another,

either themselves or their aunts or their uncles or their dad or their mom or their

nieces or nephew. Someone. You're going to be contacted with it. You're going to be coming

up tight against it. You know, it's going to pull you up short at some point in your life and

probably at a young age. Mhm. Another thing that you said in the article that

I was interested in was your self-consciousness about talking about hard things

that you have experienced, but then you said that you decided that there's a difference between

complaining about hard things and making observations about them. So why is that a concern

to you, and how do you parse the difference between complaining and making observations about

hard things? Okay. Well, first I'll tell you a story. Sure. Which is

25 years ago I had a business. And this customer would come in a

young fellow, and he would drive from Baltimore to come to us to our

place of business, you know. So he's got an hour's drive, and he would come and we became friends,

kind of, and acquaintances at least. And he would get to the point where he would

complain about the traffic. He would complain about his wife being too busy. He would complain

about the weather. He would complain about this and complain about that. And at the end he would

always say, I'm not complaining, I'm just making an observation which never failed to humor me. I

thought that was hilarious. And and I think the difference between an observation and a complaint

is, uh, recently, uh, we went to a Chinese restaurant. Okay. The food was

cold. Mm. Colder than I like. Okay. And I was even wondering whether it

was correct. Health department wise. And so I could complain and complain and

complain about it. Or I could just make an observation that, you know, that the food is is too

cold. And I'm not sure that I would go back. And to me, that's the difference. There's a difference

between bitterly complaining about something and making an observation. And what I say here today

is an observation. I have no complaints, I do not. We aren't really a complaining

family and, um, just we we observe things and we

just kind of take it from there. Mm. And I think, I think the things that

we see and we observe and, and that's really why I'm here today.

Some not some complaints of my life because I don't have any complaints about my life. But I do

have observations over the past 18 years that I think would possibly be helpful to someone else.

Mhm. So when you say for the past 18 years, is that when you were diagnosed with cancer. Yeah. Can

you tell us about your cancer. It's a long story. But before I tell you

that story I need to tell you a, an incident that happened many years before I got cancer,

which colored my whole outlook on cancer. I have a younger brother who's a minister.

And, um, there was a lady in his congregation who was diagnosed

with cancer. And she basically where I would call went screaming into the streets. I mean, she just

just panicked, started taking chemo like, within two days, didn't ask for the prayers of the saints,

didn't ask her church to pray for. Didn't fast. Wasn't anointed

with oil. Just kind of panicked. So my brother told me. It's like that's

really not the way to go about that, you know? And if you're ever diagnosed with cancer, like, put

that in mind. That was years ago. And I put that in my mind. And to me, that's

something one important thing that I would like to say today is the fact that God is in

control. Okay. You may not you may be shocked that you have cancer. One thing you

got to remember is God knew about it before you did, okay. And nothing surprises him.

And so we just take it easy. Okay. And I'm

fully I'm fully convinced that there's time

to do it. Right. Rather than just kind of panic. So how did you avoid the

panic and how did you proceed when you were diagnosed with cancer? Well, with that in mind,

with that, in my thought from way back, it, it it was just I mean, I

didn't know I was going to get cancer, but it was it came to me as a shock. Okay. I was I went to

the to the urologist. I was having kidney stones and I didn't like my old urologist. And so I

switched to a new urologist for someone that was recommended to me, that was really good. And we

talked about it and said, well, the first thing we're going to do is get a CAT scan to see what's

going on in there. So you got a CAT scan. I went back and I'm standing up looking at

the that the charts on the walls. That's what I do. You know, I mean they're there. So I look at them.

So I look at the charts and he comes in and says hello. And I And he says, sit down..

I don't really want to sit down. You know, you sit down. So I sit down, and he. He told me he's like,

look, you've got bigger problems than anything you came here for. You you have you have lymphoma.

You have very enlarged lymph nodes, especially in your groin. So, uh, he

immediately sent me to an oncologist, and he immediately took a biopsy through my back

to one of the lymph nodes. And, uh, it came back as being small B-cell lymphoma.

And, um, so he wanted to start treatment immediately, but

because of what I had told, been told and had in my mind from years ago, I

said like. Let me think about it. Let me pray about

it. Let me fast and be anointed with oil, and

then I will come back to you. I said to him, I said, are you a man of faith? He said, I am. I

said, then you understand these things. He said, okay, I will allow you to do that. But however,

when I say it's time, then it's time for treatment. Like quit your

dallying around kind of what he was telling me. And so I said, okay. And he said, here's

what's going to happen in three months when you come back. It's either going to be better or it's

going to be worse. Okay. Well, that's fair enough. There you be. Better or worse,

somehow or another. God never allowed me to think about

a third option, which is no change. I, I went back three months

later and there was absolutely no change. So now what do you do?

What do you do? I said, well, if there's no change

then I'm not going to do anything now. He wasn't really happy about that,

but I think it starts to get worse, you know. And I

know, I know some people can't do this, okay. But

it's really important to me. Like, it's your body. You're in charge of it. Oncologists are

very, very good at what they do, but they're human.

And an oncologist works on statistics.

So an oncologist tells you that you have a 80% chance of living five years.

Now, to me, that's like. That's bold. Okay. What's my oncologist know about me?

How you know? How can he say that? And I actually took offense to it. I just like

you can't. I'm a, you know, I'm a God fearing person. Like, I don't know what God has for me. How do you

know what God has for me? But and so I was I was a little put out with him,

but I was telling somebody about this and they said like, no, you're getting it wrong.

They work on statistics. And so when if they have, um,

15 people with small B-cell lymphoma and five years later,

12 of them still living, it's like, okay, we're at 80%. That's and that's how they figure. And so

that's why he's willing to tell me, like, well, there's an 80% chance that you it you'll be

living in five years or ten years or whatever. Mhm. So it went almost a year and

I started developing um sleep apnea. Um,

I got to the point that I could only sleep with my head down between two pillows. You know, my, I do

all this choking at night and like, people with sleep apnea do waking up, not getting enough sleep..

And so my normal medical doctor told me to go to an ear, nose and

throat. So I did, and he stuck a probe down my throat and kind of said something like, oh

my. He said, you have an infected adenoids. Okay. But

on top of them being infected, they're also enlarged from lymphoma because your adenoids are

lymph glands. She said, I can. I can cut them out, you

know, and I can take care of that. But. However, if you would take chemo, that would immediately

alleviate this problem. So I thought about it and, uh,

I want to say, I want to say two things, but actually the first one is,

um, when I say I, I is a combination, or if I say we, it's a

combination of myself, my wife, my oncologist, God and

research. So if I say I, I'm not I'm not, uh,

exalting myself. I say it because of of a deep

faith and, uh, a lot of research and consultation.

Mhm. And so when I say if I say I decided not to. It's not, it's not, it wasn't

me. It was, it was a combination of all these things. Mhm. The other thing I would like to say is

I don't want to offend anybody but I. Cancer is a morbid subject. Okay. And I

have, uh, some pretty, um, solid thoughts about it.

And if I might, I may say something that that could offend somebody. Maybe a little bit of dark

humor. That's that's kind of why I don't. I don't mean to offend anybody. I'm just. I'm just saying,

like, how I see it and I don't really want to. I'm not I'm not trying to rain on anybody's parade.

I'm just. I'm telling you how how how it was for me. All right, so at that point,

I, uh, I'm still thinking, what am I going to do? How? What am I going to do?

And, and before this. So my whole, my whole,

um, look at this whole thing of lymphoma is like, what does God

want? It's not what I want, but what does God want? If God wants me to take

chemo, I'm more than willing to take chemo. But if God wants to take me home, then

my thought is my rationale is like, why would I spend a whole lot of money on chemo and trying to

stay alive if God's going to take me home? And some people didn't like it very well, but I said, I

no time did I pray for healing. I prayed for God's will. And other people told me like, well, you

can pray for God's will if you want. We're going to pray for healing, but that's fine for you, okay?

But I want to know what God wants. Why do I want to spend 50,000 100,000,

200,000 on treatment? If God's going to take me home

like it seemed like a scene, it seems like a waste of God's finances. Okay. So? So

I'm weighing this thing. Like, should I take this, uh, should I take this treatment or

what should I do? And God answered it for me. Grace. Soon

after that whole thing took place, the the the ear, nose and throat doctor told me this

I went to bed one night and the Lord told me in the night. It was not audible, but

I don't know how it was. But he impressed on my mind. He said, go ahead and take treatment. I

will be with you. Hmm. I mean, it was just as clear. I got up the next morning. I went, Okay.

I'm ready. I called the oncologist and said I am ready for treatment. It's just

amazing. God answered that for me. Right about the same time,

in this time when I was dealing with how I was going to do it. Two events took place that I did

not understand at the time, but I understand now that it was God

telling me that it was going to be alright. Now I have to admit that I didn't quite understand it.

Okay. An old minister, uh, in our southern

Alan Straight, by name. He's passed on now. He came up to me one day and he says,,

Arvin, I just want you to know that I don't think the Lord's through with you yet.

No explanation, no caveats, no nothing. Didn't tell

me how he learned it. Just. That was it.?

About the same time. Um, I get I got this call from Christian Light

called Christian Light Publications back then. They just called Christian Light now from Leon Yoder and

says, Arvin, uh, your name has been given to us to be a

pastoral advisor for Christian Light. Hmm. And and I admit, I fully admit

to what I am about to say, and I. And I thought I was like, God, what kind of a sick

joke is this? I don't know whether I'm living or dying. And I get this call from Christian Light

that wants me to be on their pastoral advisory. Well, what that was, was a

confirmation that I wasn't going anywhere soon, so. So that's. You

know, I talked to Leon about it and and told him the situation, and,

uh, he said fine. And so I accepted that position, and I had that from

2006 or 7. Up until last year, I resigned. So that was just something

that, um, a verification that that I would probably live for a

while. Mhm. So anyway, uh, that's how that happened. So then I started taking.

I started taking treatment and uh, treatment is not fun. Okay. I gotta tell

you, it's it's it's hard. I've taken a treatment uh, every

three weeks for six rounds, so I would get a treatment. The first one didn't go well.

My body was not used to. The drugs didn't go well at that time. I think it was taken like 6 hours to

8 hours for an infusion of getting infusion. And, uh, so then I would be

fine. I would get the infusion on Monday. I would be fine to about Thursday. Thursday I would get, um,

nausea. Not throw up necessarily, but just get nausea like carsick. Just sick for like from

Thursday until about Sunday lunch. And then it would go away. You didn't want to eat, but you

found out later on. Or during the whole process, you found that if you ate, you actually felt

better than if you didn't eat. Mhm. So anyway, that was, that was uh that was

a six treatments of that that lasted. That put that in God put it in remission for

about five years. So for five years I lived a fairly normal life. Um,

started coming back. And the way I could tell was coming back was the lymph nodes

in my underarm. They would start swelling. You like right now, you wouldn't feel anything. And after a

while, they're this big. Okay. And so then you know that. Okay, it's time to do something. So

I called the doctor and I was like, I, you know, I think it's time to take a look at this again,

because I had taken a couple of appointments and then he's like, you don't have to come back for a

while because I think we better start again. So he took a look at it again. So yep, we needed to give

you treatment again. So another six rounds three weeks apart. But by this

time, you know, five years, ten years, 15 years, I mean, the drugs change, I mean new drugs come on

the market, the old ones, which had more side effects go away, you know, and so Probably only one

of the 3 or 4 drugs that was in that soup, uh, was the same as the one before. So

took it. Took it again, and, um, that and lasted three years. It

started coming back again. I could I could start feeling it. And so then he said, uh, you need to

take some pills. I'm like, why can't I do this again? It don't work the third time. He said

each time keeps getting shorter. He goes from five years to three years. And he said, you need to take

pills the rest of your life. So that's where I'm on now. That's I. I

take two pills one morning, one in the evening, and the one batch of pills that I was taking

lasted for a year and a half. And then I started getting some serious side effects. And so we gave

them up, and then, uh, he said, just quit taking anything. And he says, uh, what you need to do is,

is drink grape juice. Eat grapes and take, uh, wine grape capsules. He said,

uh, lymphoma doesn't like that. He said it might work. So I did that for a year,

and then it started coming back. So now I'm on. I've been on pills ever since. Not too bad a side

effects. Simply, um, it wrecks havoc with your white blood cells.

And so, consequently, uh, every two months, I get an IgG infusion, which is

immuno globin, to kind of keep my white blood cells up, because if you don't, your immune system

goes right out the window. Mhm. So that's, that's the that part of the story okay.

That's I struggle with the even knowing how to intelligently ask the question for lack of

vocabulary. But are these pills that you're taking keeping the

cancer under control or in remission or in remission. Is that. That's what you're looking for.

That's the term. And it's accomplishing that. Yes. Okay. Okay. I feel certain if I quit taking the

pills, it would come back. Mhm. And, uh, I'll be taking them as long as I live..

Probably before I started taking any.

Treatment at all. I, uh, my wife and

I decided that we were going to fast. And, uh. Well, I decided, and

as she went along with me, we fasted for almost ten days, and then I was anointed.

And, uh, that was a very, uh, moving

experience. Mhm. I would actually like to talk about anointing with oil a little bit. Uh, I have, I

have, uh, Very strong feelings about it. You know, the the Bible. Well, anointing with

oil is one of the ordinances. I think it's an ordinance that is not getting used as much as it

should. I know some churches hardly use it at all. They kind of use it as a last rite, almost like

Catholics. But, um, I think in our church specifically, we

use it a fair amount. Okay. I know of one lady. Old

widow lady that that she would have a serious ailment and she asked for anointing and she would

be anointed and it would go away. And then two years later, she'd have something completely

different. And, uh, over the years that I was minister, she was anointed three times. I was

anointed twice, uh, the first time before I took chemo, and then the second time before I took

chemo. The second time I, uh, asked for anointing again that time. Well, the first

time. Normally, you know, you would call for anointing and and the minister and the deacon

comes to your house and they have the service, and then they anoint you and, and, uh, sing a couple of

songs and go home. The second time I thought I would like to have it done at church after a

service. I think it was a it was a prayer meeting. It was a prayer meeting Tuesday night. Prayer

meeting. After that, I would like to be anointed. Anybody that wants to stay can. And if you did,,

and they were blessed by it, here's what I want to say about annointing. First of all,,

it's you're supposed to ask for it. I had a my cousin's husband was

dying with cancer. Okay. And their church didn't use anointing with oil. And so I went and met him

in the hospital, and I said, like, have you been anointed? He said, no, my preachers didn't tell me I

should be. I said, well, let me read something to you, you know. And so so I read it like if you are sick call for

the elders and, uh. Well, no, the ministers never said anything about it, and so he's not going to

do it. And he didn't and he died. Not that that had anything to do with it. But here's what I believe

about anointing, because it's commanded, I believe that there is going to be some kind of

healing either for the mind, give you peace, give you healing slow, give you healing fast,

give you, uh, just give you calmness of soul. Something's going to be healed. I

am fully convinced that that the Bible says it, and I'm convinced that that's the way it's going

to be. And I and I believe it's something that has not been used as much as it should in the

Anabaptist circles. Hmm. Yeah. Thank you for that exhortation. Yeah, I,

I feel strongly about it. So you were anointed with oil twice. Twice? Yes, both towards the

beginning of your journey with cancer. Or how did that fit in? Well, clear you clear at the beginning?

Um. Even before. Well, the oncologist wanted to wanted to start

treatment immediately, and I believe it was in the in term of that

that, that, that we fasted and, uh, prayed and was anointed. And then I went to the

oncologist and that's when there was no change. Mhm. So I believe that was a

direct, a direct answer from the Lord and gave me more time. Okay. I know people don't normally get

a lot of time but some do. And the Lord gave me time to work through it. Mhm.

I could imagine that in your experience with cancer you could face

temptations of unbelief or discouragement or feeling like you deserve

better than what you're getting out of life, or that maybe God is punishing you.

What kind of temptations did you experience and how did you resist or overcome them?

Okay, so I'm not sure how you have them listed there, but I did not believe God is

punishing me. Okay. Now, I believe that if if something like that happens to you, maybe you

ought to do some soul searching to find out. But that's not my God. I don't believe- my God isn't

punishing me that way. He allows Satan, I think, I think cancer, I think we can all agree the cancer

comes from Satan, not from God. And so I did not feel like the God was punishing me,

and I did not feel like I deserved better than that because like, who am I? I'm nobody. Why??

Why should I get a special pass? You know, we're all going to have. We live in this vale of tears,

as they call it. And. And we all have problems. And so who am I to say that I don't

deserve it? You know, I don't think I do. I don't think, you know. I don't think he was punishing me.

I don't think I deserve it. I guess if there's one thing that maybe if I

had. Okay, I come from a family of Stoics, pretty much. And we don't

talk about our problems too much, which is can be good, or it could be bad. Okay.

At one point, I mean, you're in the middle of chemo, okay? And you're not feeling well,

and you've still got four treatments to go, and it's easy to get discouraged. And

I would admit there was at least one time I remember just breaking down and crying and

I'm guessing basically self-pity. But I have found so much.

I really, really appreciate the book of Job. I'm telling you, that's just that book. And Job

blesses me so much. Uh, and I, I, I feel like I wouldn't be like

Job when when these things happen, you know, it's like, uh, in all this Job sinned not nor

charged God foolishly. I mean, that that's just so profound to me..

Mhm. And, uh, so, yeah, the book of Job and, and

then the other thing you know, about not being discouraged is like I,

you can't, you can't put any kind of a price on having a church family.

I, I feel sorry for these people who first of all, feel like you don't need a church, that you go out

there and have church by themselves. I feel so sorry for those people. I mean, I had a church

family. I had people praying for me that told me they were praying for me, and their children were

praying for me and that and my family. You know, we have a

strong family where we're not fighting amongst ourselves, and that's that's a blessing. And so

all these things just helped give you a, uh, a sense that

people care and that that's very important. I think it's very important. I, uh,

well, I still am. I'm getting, uh, in infusions. And so I go, you know, what happens

in they put you in a pod which has, like, six chairs in it. Okay. And they tell you to pick a

chair, and so you pick a chair and there's, like, five other people and you know that they all have

cancer or pretty much because they're they're all getting infusions or this or that or, or getting

their port flushed or something. Mm. And, uh, I mean, some of these people just, they

they look hard, they look dejected. They have nobody

they they don't have any hope in life. And yeah, there's a

sometimes there's a chaplain comes around and wants to pray with them or pray with me or

whatever, which I, I normally allow them to if especially if it's a male. Uh,

I allow them to because like, hey, I can use all the prayers I can get, you know, but when I, when I

see what I see when I'm sitting in that pod, you can't. I mean,

it's priceless. It totally priceless of what family and church means to

me to help you through it. I mean, just absolutely.

Absolutely amazing. I want to get back to that. What you said

about the presence and support of church for you, in the sense of how can a church care

for a person? Well, that that is something that I care about. But first, I want to ask, how has your

experience with cancer, the oncologists, the the pain and the difficulty

of living with cancer? How has this changed you? Okay, well, um,

I'll use another story. There's a friend of mine who, uh.

Always had a little for as long as. Pretty much as long as he. Ever since he was married,

had a little. They had a little church, like six families met together. There was other churches

around they could have attended, but they didn't. They just. They just did not. And then, uh, after

many years, I'm looking in one of the periodicals and see, I see that this couple's name is in there,

and they're joining this church, which is, you know, which is a church that, that I know about, would,

would approve of. Right. And, uh, so I called him up. Now, I talked to him. I met him one day. I said,

tell me something. I said, like how what what changed that, uh, you are now joining a

traditional church rather than trying to have home church by yourself. He said, well, Arvin, it's

like this. Some things that I used to think important were important. He said, I find out, aren't,

some things that I think aren't important, I found out were. And that's exactly how I feel

about it. The first the first blush, the first thing you do is like, okay, how do you take care of

your wife, you know? And so she probably didn't even know it. But I got a new [indistinct]..

I got a new, uh, blower so that they started easier. You know, rather than pulling, pull and pulling the

ones that we had and some things like that. Tried to get your get your house in order a little bit,

but then the whole thing is like you just have a whole different perspective on life. I mean, I, I

suppose I do, I think a lot about, um, I mean, not only because I'm

older, but when, when you stare death in the face or you think you stare, stared at death in the

face, it it gives you a.

Insight that that you never you never had before. And, uh. So

that's how it changed. I think I'm you have to ask my wife. I think I'm a better person because of

it. But, uh. Definitely

less assertive, I guess you would say. Being sure of yourself. If there's anything

that disturbs me is when I hear somebody with cancer saying like, yep,

I beat it. No you didn't. No you didn't.

You thought by sheer willpower and are people who believe that, like, we're going to get through this,

we're going to we're going to do what has to do and we're going to beat it. Well, some do beat it.

But I'm telling you, as far as I'm concerned, you don't beat cancer. God beats

cancer. Okay. Mhm. And for you to to be a person who says that I

beat cancer, it's just it's just to me it's just like off the charts. That's just that's asinine.

And so now, you know I guess the one thing to change is you just, you just know and feel that

every day is in God's hands. People ask me like, well, how do you deal with cancer? I don't. I deal

with cancer the same way you deal with every day, one day at a time. That's all you can do. You don't

know what tomorrow holds. Hmm. Yeah, that's. That's a good perspective.

Before we began the conversation, you were telling me that you have things to say about oncologists.

I do. Um, and I've already said a little bit about oncologists, how they work on

statistics and not only oncologists in, in general, but,

um, it's just that I'm a, I'm a person who believes that

a physician and a, a person ought to be able to, to understand each other.

Okay. And you, you see a doctor for the first time. And

I'll just use the term. You don't like him? Okay. You are not obligated to keep him unless you're

way out in the woods somewhere. And he's the only doctor available. I mean, I think probably three

times in my life, I, uh, changed doctors because I just didn't feel like we were connecting. I didn't

feel like. Or the one I just felt like he was in it for the money. Like, he didn't really care about

me as a patient. He just cared about his practice, I guess you would say. Mhm.

And so you got to take and it's easier for some people to say than others, but you got to take

control a little bit yourself. Um, they're not God and

they're fallible. And so you just need to. You just need to go with

something that you feel good about and have. Yeah. And that's

doctors in general. That's not that's not necessarily oncologists per

se. Yeah that's helpful perspective. They're flawed like we are. And they

don't have us in prison. We can. No, no. We can move on. I did want to say,

uh, something about just cancer. You know, like you

were talking about, uh, God punishing you. Okay. I don't I don't believe that in the case

of a dedicated Christian, God is punishing you. I don't believe that. I mean, it's well documented

that some cancers come from lifestyle. Some kind of cancers come from, uh,

smoking, um, skin cancer comes from overexposure to ultraviolet light. And so there there

is. You're not going to be able to always say like, well, I should have done this and I wouldn't have

got cancer. What did Job's boils come from? Did did

they come from a imbalanced diet? Did they come from a failure to take the right

vitamins? Did you come from, uh, eating too much red meat? They came from

Satan. And I think that's what Satan uses, that like we were talking about the different things

that emotions we go through when we're diagnosed with cancer. But the ultimate, I

think, is for Satan wants us to curse God and die. Just like, you know, Job's wife wasn't any help at

all. She really wasn't in this in this case. She just curse God and die. And that's really I mean,

that's actually what the whole thing was between God and Satan. Mhm. Satan says, well, the only reason

that Job serves you is because, um, you got a hedge around him. God says, okay

And Satan verily hoped, hope upon hope that Joe would curse God and die. That's really what he had

hoped. So I have a girl cousin that died with lung cancer. I can

guarantee you she never smoked a cigarette in her life. You know how. How does a 50 year old woman

get lung cancer? Who knows? I mean, she died from it. So I

asked the question. Why do people get cancer? Hmm. And I have four reasons that

people get cancer. And and these are reasons for God fearing people, basically. Mhm.

The first one is a means to take us home. We're all going to go home. We're

going to die from something. The only people that didn't die was, uh. Enoch and

Elijah. Enoch and Elijah. That's the only two that didn't. It didn't die. Everybody else died, and

we're going to die. And so when the time got going to take you home and actually, I believe in

some cases, um, it can even be an advantage. You don't think cancer is an advantage But I'll get

to that. But, um. Yeah, we're going to go home somehow. And. And some people die from Covid. Some

people die from cancer, and some people die from car accidents and whatever. The second reason, I

think, is a refining fire. And I found that to be true in my own life.

Uh, it'll change you. And I've told you that when you when you stare. Death and the fragility of

life in the face. I mean, it does something to you. It makes

you, uh, regroup. It may. It makes you get your priorities in order.

Um. My doctor, my oncologist, I said, so when if I

don't take any treatment at all, like how long do I live? 18 months. Mhm.

So that's kind of a structure change a bit. Yeah I imagine. So. It has

a way of concentrating the mind I guess you could say. And I've told you, you know things that seemed

important weren't anything that didn't seem important work. Uh, a third reason that

I think people get cancer is to give them time to make peace with God.

I'm 100% convinced there's people in heaven going to be in heaven who

wouldn't been there if they wouldn't have got cancer. Mm. Now, you can chew on that one for a

while, but I really believe that. I mean, so, you know, even fast moving cancer would normally

give person a chance to make some wrongs right. Um, I.

Different times I've, I've talked to people who were- knew they were dying. I

knew they were dying. Everybody knew they were dying. And and I went to visit them and I said,

like, so, is everything right between you and the Lord? And he said, yeah, yeah, I kind of think so.

But the one, the one case, I found out that he did make a phone call to somebody to make sure that

everything was all right. Okay. See, fatal accidents don't allow that. And so I think in one case of

the most sense of the word, it's the mercy of God that allows a time for reflection, the time to get

right, a time for repentance, if need be. And, uh, time to think about

heaven. You probably wouldn't have thought about before the fourth one. And

I think I feel very strongly about this too, is that if you can

handle this thing that you're going through with grace, with Christian grace, it's an

encouragement to other people. Both my brother and I have similar types of

cancer. He his was diagnosed long after mine. Uh, but we have similar.

I have small B-cell lymphoma. He has CLL, which is very similar. It's the same there sisters the

cancers. And uh, so, you know, we we regularly talk to each other and, and how how's it going and all

that. I heard different people say like when they're diagnosed with cancer, I think, hey, if they

can do it, we can do it. And I just know this friend of mine who didn't have

cancer, but he just spent 12 weeks in the hospital with all sorts of things. And I

actually thought he was going to die a couple of times, but he didn't. Okay. And I told him and he is

just so thankful. I mean, you know, God is good. And every time I talk to him, he's upbeat and he's

talking about how good God is. And like I said, you God saved you to be an

example to people of of how to live in the, in the, in the

presence of adversity. I said, don't don't forget that, um, I have been

able to, to minister to people at one time I was calling my brother and my brother in law, another

friend and an in-law or a friend's in-law. Cancer. I

was callin''em, you know, every week like, hey, how's it going? How's it going? You know, and, uh, yeah..

You mentioned with great appreciation, uh, the presence of your church during your experience

with cancer. So I'm curious if you have advice for a church or for people in a

church who have fellow members who are suffering from cancer? How can we support people who were

going through an experience like you. For people who are standing by? Mm. First of

all, I'll tell you some things not to do. The first thing not to do. And I know that

you're concerned with a person who has cancer, but the thing you don't do

is offer medical advice. Do not offer medical advice. They have spent days or

weeks trying to find their way through this thing. Okay. They talk to their family. They talk to the

oncologist. They did research in the information that they have now, and the best of their ability

to make a judgment call of how they're going to go through with this, and they make a decision, and

then it's their decision. And for a person to come by and say like, oh, you should never have done

that. It's not helpful at all. I never say you should have done this or

that. Never say you shouldn't have taken chemo. I mean, there are people who believe if you don't

take chemo and and that's fine. If they don't want to take chemo, they don't have to take chemo. You

know what I'm saying? But if that's the path that we decided, then who are you to tell

us? Don't do it. I mean, you tell me that I'm not supposed to take chemo and I'm already

three treatments in. What am I supposed to do? Jerk my port out and call the doctor and tell him

to cancel all [indistinct] treatment just because you told me that. No, you're not going to. And so just

keep your thoughts to yourself. Um, that type of thoughts. Now, there are things you can say. Your

untimely advice is not welcome. It really isn't. My. Oh, my

my, uh, fellow pastor, uh, passed away was glioblastoma, a brain cancer..

And his wife got so much advice from people from all over the place that they could get him this,

and they could get him that, and they could do this for him. And they you ought to do this and

like it's too late. Okay. And if someone would tell me

that, I would probably if I wasn't in a good humor, I would probably if if I was a good humor, I'd

probably pass them off. But if I was not in a good humor, I problems like, hey, when you get cancer and

you get my kind of cancer, you are welcome to treat it any way you want and I will bless you

for it. So that's what you don't do. Okay. Wisdom. That's wisdom. Yes.

Uh, the old adage, don't judge somebody till you walk a mile in their shoes. I think it's very

pertinent in this case. Um, Paul says in first Corinthians

9:22 to the weak I became weak, that I might gain the weak. I have made all things to all men that I

may be made. By all means, save some. And this I do for the gospel sake, that I may be partaker

thereof with you. And early, early on I was given a

poem to me by someone who was dealing with cancer, and some

lady had, uh, gave this poem to her, and she gave it to me. And I find it very pertinent, and I would

just like to go down through it, if you don't mind. That would be wonderful. It is titled Comforters

When I Was Diagnosed with cancer and it was written by Linda Mae Richardson, my first friend

came up and expressed his shock by saying, I can't believe you have cancer. I've always thought you

were so active and healthy. He left and I felt alienated and somehow very different. And

uh, my response to that is, I think it's a Proverbs that says the race is not to the swift, nor the

battle to the strong, but time and chance happened to them all. And healthy people get cancer. I just

was reading some somewhere, just probably this week that that, uh, some long distance runner, you

know, uh, a hero, a, uh, a star got cancer, you

know, healthy, healthy as a horse. What are you going to do? The second friend came and brought

information about different types of treatment being used for cancer. And he said, whatever you do,

don't take chemotherapy. It is poison. He left and I felt scared and confused. Well, I we've already

discussed that. Uh, it's a very personal decision. And for somebody standing

by to make a judgment call, it's just just out of hand, in my opinion.

My third friend came and tried to answer my "whys" with a statement. Perhaps God is disciplining you

for some sin in your life. He left and I felt guilty. And we discussed that just a little bit.

Um, it could be. It could be. If you have ignored every

other. Roadblock that that God put in front of you, he would give you cancer

for that reason only. Mhm. I mean, you know that maybe the reason you got it but I, I, I don't,

I don't buy that really for a Christian just to say, oh you're barn burned down because you had

sin in your life. That's just, that's, that's out of hand also. My fourth friend came and

told me if your faith is just great enough, God will heal you. I left and I felt my faith must

be inadequate. Don't ever fall for that one. Okay.

You want to know why? When you think about the man who was carried by four people to Jesus, and they

couldn't get him in, so they left down through the roof. Do you know why God healed him?

Why? He said when he saw their faith, he saw their faith.

And someone would ever tell you that. I was like, no, if I don't get healed it's because you don't have

enough faith. The faith of the friends, the. Faith of the friend. That that man might have been too

sick to have faith, who knows? But he had for people. And so don't ever fall for

that thing that says that if you just had enough faith. I don't believe that for a minute, because

in the case was talking about my fellow pastor, I, I think I would probably be safe

in saying there was hundreds of thousands of prayers offered for that man over a two year

period, and God still decided to take him home. And I know that there was people there that had

faith like you would not believe. I can't tell you how many times I prayed for him, but it wasn't

God's will. And so if God's working something else behind the

scenes for this to be true, for this to happen.

It will happen. It's just it's just the way it is. My fifth friend came and told me to remember that

all things work together for good. He left and I felt angry.

That's a horrible thing to say to somebody who's dealing with cancer. Okay. There are

times that that works. I don't know that you should do that at funerals. I don't know that you

should say that. For people who are in the deep throes of cancer, it may be 100% true. But if you

don't believe it for yourself, it it don't mean a thing. Now, I believe that. I

believe that all things work together for good for those who love God. I believe 100%, and I

believe that why was why I was dealing in the middle of chemo. But for somebody

to say that to me, it's just it's almost mean. Hmm. And

then my sixth friend didn't come at all. Never came at all. I felt

sad andalone. And here's one thing I want to say. I didn't know

you could pray for people over the phone. It never occurred to me. You'll pray for anybody over the

phone? Yeah. Okay, good. I, I never had up till this

point. And I was diagnosed with cancer. And my brother, who was a pastor, said, let me pray with

you. It was a phone. Mhm. I it is something that occurred to me. And so

you know some people never came at all. That's some people can't seem to

handle it. Some people don't want to have to deal with it, maybe for things in their life they don't

want to have to deal with the the frailty of life or whatever. Um, but I

think, I think even people who never show up in person can write. They can

They can. You know, this fellow was in the hospital for 12

weeks. I only went to I didn't see him until after it was over, but I called him practically every

week. You know. And you can do that. My seventh friend came and held my hand

and said, I care. I'm here. I want to help you through this. He left and I felt loved.

Mhm. And that's what you can do. That's what you can do. Just show your concern and ask

people how it's going. Uh pray with them. Um tell them you're praying for them.

Just just give your support. Just let them know that you care. Wow.

Really appreciate that poem. Thank you. Yeah, I. It has wisdom too. Yeah, I really

it meant a lot to me because I was right in the middle of it. And. Yeah, it helps you

understand. It helps you understand. Especially the one where God is punishing you for something. It's

that and for someone else to tell you that is over the

top. Yeah. And it would be very difficult to receive. It would be very difficult to receive. And

I'm always afraid that it's going to come back to bite them sometime. Mhm. Well this has been good

advice for those who are wanting to be helpful and supportive to somebody who is suffering from

cancer. If we have anybody listening to this who is suffering from cancer now, which is

very likely to be the case. Um, what words of encouragement might you have for for these people?

I camped out in the book of Job. I really did. You read what old Job went through, and

you think about it. You know what I get and what I have is bad. It's not like a Job had.

And then there's also a verse in there. Then Job says, if he should slay me, yet will I serve him.?

And if God wants to take my life, he he is perfectly

welcome to do so. Something I should have said earlier that I did not say, and I know

this does not take into consideration all the the pain that your family is going to feel

if you leave them, the the sorrow and the heartbreak and all that. But if

Personally if you don't care if you live or die. Ain't much Satan can do.

He can't get you. And and I was actually that I was at that point. I think, Lord, if you want to

take me home, I'm willing to go. If you want me to be here, I'm willing to do. Like Paul I got. I'll, uh.

I'll do what I can. Mhm. And the Christian has that hope. You know, we don't have to

we don't have to be all beside ourselves that the Lord might take us home.

That's not that. Yeah. Hmm. No. Thank you. And that's, you know, book of Job. I

know that probably my favorite old Old Testament book. And there's. And there's times when

driving down the road, I'll just put the book of Job on and listen to the first 13 chapters till I

get to work or something. He has some. He's very poetic, very poetic. And

he says, uh, especially like he said, uh, you know, he was in the midst of this and he says, the day that

I was born, let it not be numbered with the days. You know, like, let's say it was August the 15th,

like, let's go to August the 14th to August the 16th. I deleted. From the calendar. To leave that

one off the calendar because I feel so bad. Yeah. Let it, let it hide in darkness. Yeah. And

so just very poetic. I just I just love the book of Job. Very powerful imagery. Yeah. Yeah. Well

thank you. Thank you for those words as we close this interview, is there anything else that you

would like to say or another poem to read? Well, I have, um,

two songs that, that I that became very close to me during my journey

Still is, still must bring tears to my eyes. Um, the one is if on a quiet

towards heaven. We calmly sail with grateful hearts. O Lord, to thee we own the favor and gale

with grateful heart. O Lord, to thee we own the favorite gale. So everything's just calm and you

know. Just going along and everything's smooth. Uh, yeah. We thank you, Lord, for that.

But should the surges arise and rest delay to come. Blessed be the

tempest kind. The storm that drives us nearer home. Mm. Blessed be the tempest

kind, the storm that drives us nearer home. And then the first verse of the song. Be still my

soul. Be still my soul. The Lord is on your side. Bear patiently the cross of

grief or pain. Look to thy God to order and provide. In every change he

faithful will remain. Be still, my soul. Thy best, thy heavenly

friend through thorny ways leads to a joyful end. Mm. And then

in closing here. Called it closing. I'm not preaching. I'm sorry. I won't hold you long..

Um, this was written in 2008. And for a while, I fancied

myself to be a poet also. And I wrote some poems, and, uh, I found out that I was a better

critic of poems than what I am a writer of poems. But I would like to read this, because this is

how I felt at the time. And and the title of it is The News. Not

a good Day. Cat scans all say something inside. Eating away. What pending fate lies

through this gate. My soul cannot articulate. Oncology? chemo IV?

cause to give pause? What store for me? God, are you there? Fasting and

prayer. What is your will? How will I fare? back at the fall. Curse on us all. No one

live long on this ball. O Lord, how long? When things go wrong in tumult.

Fierce can there be song? Fears, doubts and more can faith endure?

God in control. This I am sure. Bear this alone. Friends on the

phone. Prayers of the Saints. God on the throne. Live short. Live long.

God deals no wrong. His plan. My plan. His strength. My song.

Thank you for sharing this with us. And thank you for joining us for this episode. It's been an

honor and a joy to have you here. It's been an honor for me, too. I just pray

that Someone gets some good out of it. Someone, especially the first part of

when you're when you're diagnosed, like just take it easy. A couple days in

God's sight for you to get your thoughts together, to get a plan together with his help and the

help of the church. Uh, you can't go wrong. Mm. I thank you for this wisdom.

You're welcome. Thank you for listening to this episode with Arvin Martin. If you found this

episode about physical limitations of cancer to be helpful, you may also appreciate Janelle

Glick's episode where she speaks about trauma and trauma informed churches. You can find this

episode at anabaptistperspectives.org. Again, thank you for listening and we will see you in the next

episode.