Our next guest is Adam Leath. Welcome to The Junction.

Thank you so much for having me.

So can we start by telling us what's your background and how it relates to the field of veterinary forensics?

Yes, so I began my career in veterinary medicine. I actually wanted to be a veterinarian. I, uh, was a technician growing up, working through veterinary school or as you say, working for the veterinary school during undergrad and as a tech at one of the local veterinary clinics, uh, was really interested in understanding more about what was happening, but quickly recognized that the confines of a room, uh, without being able to see the sun and feel the breeze was probably not the best fit for me. Um, and vet school was very expensive. So when I finished my undergrad, which was in animal science from the University of Tennessee, I took my first job as an animal control officer in Southwest Florida. Uh, for Lee County Animal Services. I worked my way up, uh, through the ranks there, uh, and spent about five years, uh, with the organization and, uh, was recruited by the ASPCA, where I ran their southeastern United States, uh, from West Virginia, south and west of Texas, uh, where I consulted on, uh, criminal cases involving animals. So I was very involved during, um, my time during my tenure there and learned a lot, uh, responded to, uh, the second largest dogfighting case in U. S. history. I was able to, uh, respond to one of the the largest cockfighting cases I've ever been involved in. I had lots of just amazing experiences and have a lot, um, that I owe to the ASPCA. Uh, during my time, they also supported me in furthering my education. I have a master's degree in veterinary forensic science here from the University of Florida. Uh, so that's kind of in a nutshell, kind of what started me, uh, into all of this and I've never looked back.

Awesome. So I am from Puerto Rico and as you very well know in Puerto Rico, cockfighting is just, it's common practice, right? Like growing up, I had family members that were involved in it and I, I just knew that something was wrong about it, but I felt that it was more like a personal thing, however, since even though I am from Puerto Rico and I know about the idea of cockfighting, I've never been involved in a cockfighting case. So I want to discuss with you, I suppose, how it's similar and different to dogfighting. So first of all, I mean, what, what does cockfighting entail?

So, cockfighting in its most simple form is the,h, forced fighting between two roosters. Uh, they do not use the hens. They only use the rooster. And it is essentially exploiting what would otherwise be a natural behavior. And that is, you know, somewhat of a territorial aggression, um, maybe a sexual aggression between species, or excuse me, between individuals of the same sex, of the same species. Uh, they are taking what would normally be a normal activity or normal behavior and exploiting that by putting it in an unnatural setting, um, where the birds cannot escape and will continue to fight. Um, it is, it is different. It has some similarities to dogfighting, um, but there, there are some pretty distinct differences.

So is there any use for the females?

Yes. In fact, without the female, uh, they couldn't continue the circle of the crime. So, the rooster obviously is the one that's fought, but once they have finished and, and were successful, they'll breed those roosters back to the hens, and that progeny is the next generation of, of fighting rooster.

In the cases of dogfighting that I have been involved, there's always the concern for other crimes, other criminal activity. Is that the same in cockfighting?

It is very similar. Um, to normalize violent behavior, uh, between animals, it is not natural. And individuals who are involved in this type of activity are commonly associated with other types of illegal activity. Uh, I've never been involved in a cockfight that didn't involve narcotics. Um, I have been involved in cockfights that had human trafficking, uh, child prostitution, um, lots of other types of violent crime. The individuals who were involved in this, oftentimes felons, who have, uh, access to firearms, which in and of itself in most states is a crime. And believe it or not, there have actually been people killed at cockfights. Uh, there have even been people killing one another, trying to settle disputes over the result of cockfights.

So, when we're going into these, into these locations, we see things like paraphernalia and such. So, is it similar or is there paraphernalia that is indicative of cockfighting?

There's paraphernalia that is specifically, uh, attributed to cockfighting and that is the, the knives, the gaffes, uh, some of the paraphernalia, the weaponry that is specifically attached to the birds themselves, uh, that, that has no other legal justifiable agricultural purpose, uh, it is only for the activity of illegal cockfighting. So that's why it's so important that law enforcement and response agencies and animal control departments and animal services agencies be able to recognize these telltale, uh, items of paraphernalia so that they know that there needs to be further investigation. There needs to be involvement of many different agencies, oftentimes at the state level, even at the federal level. Um, animal fighting is a federal crime as well as a state crime. Um, and cockfighting is illegal in all 50 States. It's not a felony in all 50 States, unfortunately, um, but it is a crime in all 50 States.

So So, in dogfighting they will use enhancers, so is that the same also in cockfighting?

So, there can be enhancers, um, some of the examples of that, uh, bringing a minor to a cockfight. Um, we have had cases where minors are brought to these locations. Um, depending upon, you know, the individual circumstances, there are lots of other types of crime that might also enhance it. And depending upon the state, there are Uh, scoring system, so how many points the individual may have, uh, where they score, uh, might depend on what their previous criminal history looked like, um, and might also get them an enhanced sentence. So it, it really has some variability, but there are abilities, uh, for the judge to enhance some of those penalties depending upon those circumstances.

Because it is, uh, the cockfighting in itself is a crime, can you charge cockfighting and animal cruelty?

It's a really great question. And yes, very progressive agencies are doing just that, uh, in cockfighting cases. The activity of fighting birds is inherently cruel in that it produces very serious injuries, which often results in serious pain and suffering for the animals that is oftentimes repeated and prolonged, which are pretty specific elements in most states statutes for it to rise to the level of a felony. Um, so it's important to know that yes, animal fighting is a crime, but also animal cruelty should be considered because the individual impact to the bird itself, um, may actually rise to the level of animal cruelty. And so in many cases that we can articulate after our veterinarians have examined the animals and can attribute their specific injuries, um, to the activity, we would then be looking for those particular, uh, cases for us to charge also with animal cruelty.

One of the things that I saw from your lecture that I thought was interesting was the housing. How we, we know that there's a dogfighting area because of the housing, the blue barrels and that kind of stuff. And it seems that that is somewhat similar in cockfighting as well.

It is a big telltale sign, something that we look for, because it is very distinct. Most people in backyard, poultry operations or, or egg production, or if you're raising, you know, birds for, for meat or other purposes, uh, you're not going to typically find that you need a lot of roosters and if you're breeding chickens, you don't need multiple roosters. If you have one rooster, they can typically mate with multiple hens. So there really isn't a justifiable reason to have a large number of roosters. In fact, if you'd asked many people who have one, they probably wish they didn't have the one that they do. Um, so they typically have a bit of a Napoleon syndrome. Uh, they, they like to, to be the boss and tell people what to do and where to go. Um, so yes, it is important. Um, and certainly the housing. is important because it's used as a mechanism to condition the birds. So the way in which they are housed actually helps contribute toward their strength and endurance. What do I mean by that? So the construction of let's say a teepee style house or one of those blue barrels, if they're staking those birds to the ground, that's that long cord that they're attached to isn't as long as you might think. And in fact, it's barely long enough for them to fly multiple times and to land just right to hit that perch. So perching is a natural behavior for chickens. Bad things happen to chickens when they're walking around on the ground, so they don't want to be on the ground. So exploiting what is a natural behavior of them wanting to perch and to fly, uh, ultimately conditions their ability to either achieve or, or close to achieve vertical flight, uh, but their ability to jump and fly in the actual match itself, might give them a competitive advantage.

I think it's really funny that you mention about how people don't want to have more than one, if any at all. I remember growing up in Puerto Rico, I had a family member that I, that I stayed at for like, weekends at the beach and they had one and it was so horrible waking up, you know, Like you're up late because you're at the beach and everything and then it's waking you up and screaming And then if you go outside and get too close it's chasing you. But is there a difference between those birds and the birds that are used for cockfighting? Like are there breeds like there are in dogs?

There are, and in fact, um, they're selected because of their aggression towards other roosters. And in fact, often, they're, they're varieties of exotic junglefowl or gamefowl as they're often times referred to, and there are a long list of them. Uh, but, to differentiate one from another, I will tell you, uh, I oftentimes have to ask the individual because they, they may call it one particular bloodline, um, but it is, is quite varied depending upon, um, who you're working with. And I want to kind of circle back to something else that you said. It's important. You know, you said that the rooster is always crowing and waking you up every morning. It's funny that what annoyed you is actually how we get alerted. some of these cases. Oftentimes, neighbors get frustrated by being woken up every morning and then end up calling in on their neighbor who's got a bunch of roosters. And before you know it, you know, we're in the middle of investigating a cockfighting case.

In dogfighting, we see a lot of these places pretending to be like championships from a dog show. And there are associations that are supposed to be like pitbull show associations, but realistically, they're dog fighting things. Is that the same thing with cock fighting?

So one example of that, in my opinion, is the Gamefowl Breeders Association. Uh, this is an association that has show standards that are eerily similar to what is exactly required to shape and condition a bird for fighting. Um, but will, um, what in my opinion is an attempt to legitimize or make to look like a legal activity, which is otherwise, um, any legal activity.

So when you're going out to one of these cases to investigate, what are the potential challenges or dangers, both injury or diseases that you can find at these places?

So these cases present a serious threat to public safety, uh, as well as to the officer safety. So from a public safety standpoint and public health standpoint, these yards where these birds are housed oftentimes are riddled with disease. These birds are not housed in very sanitary environments. And so it's very common for things like avian influenza, Merck's, um, Pox, there's lots of things that can even be zoonotic, um, things like Campylobacter and others that can produce some pretty nasty things to people. Um, so just in general, they're very unsanitary and present a health concern from that aspect. The safety aspect includes the, both the two-legged, the people, um, they oftentimes have very extensive backgrounds and are individuals that need to be approached with caution. In fact, I wouldn't encourage any agency who is not a law enforcement agency, um, to be doing this alone. Making sure that there's an effective, you know, safety response plan. How are you going to respond? What do you need to respond? And oftentimes many people think that, you know, the investigation of these crimes are going to net you to show up in some back alley or some, you know, uh, abandoned house where you're going to catch the fight happening in progress. And that's rare. You typically don't. In fact, you don't even need to catch them in the act to be able to prove some of those elements. Florida is just one example, but even breeding and conditioning or having the paraphernalia is the same charge as the people who are in the middle of the pit fighting them. Um, so I can actually charge someone with having the birds if I can show that they're using them for this purpose. I can even charge someone who is being paid to feed and water the birds. And it's just the yard person is out there just trying to take care of them. If they knew that the owner was fighting these birds, that's the same charge as if they were attending or staging or promoting the fight.

We know that it's really common in Puerto Rico, as I mentioned, but is it common in any other territories or states?

So yes, um, and it actually is legal in some of the Virgin Islands, and in some other territories. Depending upon your location, it may actually not even be a felony. It may be a misdemeanor. Um, so depending upon your location, it's really important for you to do the research, understanding what your state statute requires, but even more importantly than that, what are the elements of your statute? Because there are some states that, that have some statutes that are written in such a way that it's really kind of hard to prove what they're asking you to prove. I don't know whether that's an intentionally vague or not. But some of those states have statutes that, that make the elements really not helpful, uh, for the investigator. So depending upon the wording and depending upon the elements, and when I say the elements, those are the, the words between and and or and the statute, so any of those that are mentioned. That's what the investigating agency is going to have to prove.

When you go in to one of these cases and you remove the birds, what happens to these birds?

It's a really great question. It's one that I didn't get to cover much in the topic. Uh, I had some questions after the presentation about it. Uh, there's really not a lot of positive outcomes that can happen in these cases in terms of the birds actually remaining alive. And the reason for that being, one, is, trying to effectively rehabilitate a rooster while there have been some studies and some people who have, uh, and some agencies who've been experimenting with this and have been, uh, successful, it is very limited in scope. In the last cockfighting case I did, it was more than 300 birds. And so, I don't have 300 people with backyard flocks that are willing to accept 300, birds. So, oftentimes, if they were even willing to accept them, um, the other challenge can actually be what diseases they may have. The other concern being, um, if they have a disease that's reportable, or a disease that's communicable, um, they may even be close to a hatchery or a commercial operation. And certainly your state department of agriculture would need to be aware. Uh, and there are even times where states departments of agriculture will actually mandate the destruction of the birds at the property. Um, so those kinds of things make it especially challenging. But even when trying to rehabilitate them, even trying to identify what diseases they have, um, there's a myriad of them. And in every case that I've been involved in, we've always had communicable disease to other birds, and found it almost impossible for either the Department of Ag to be okay with us spreading, you know, what could potentially be, you know, something throughout the community but then on top of that, the more that we test, the more that we typically find. Um, and we're talking about something like serious as avian influenza or things like that. It is almost always euthanasia.

Excellent. Well, thank you so very much for sharing your knowledge with us. And thank you for being here and for everything that you do for the animals.

It was my pleasure. Thank you so much. I wish all your listeners the best of luck and stay safe out there. Keep doing the best of work and keeping our two and four legged members safe.

Thank you.