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Brian: Welcome guys.

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How are you?

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Troy: We're good.

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I'm good.

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I don't know how Alex is.

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I'm good.

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Alex: I'm great.

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I'm in Palm Springs, not Palm Springs.

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I'm in the desert.

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No, I'm in 29.

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Palms.

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Troy: Is that that kind of little hotel thing

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called 29 Palms?

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Alex: There's more than one

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hotel.

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Troy: That's a fun spot.

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I like it there.

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Alex: It's very nice.

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I like the desert.

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It's peaceful.

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Brian: We got a lot to get, get to today.

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So I wanna

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get

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Troy: got a lot on the docket.

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Brian: vacation travel

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log has been fascinating.

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Maybe we cut it out.

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Maybe we leave it in.

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All right, let's get started.

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Welcome to People versus Algorithms.

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I'm Brian Morrissey.

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Joined as always by Troy Young and Alex Schleifer.

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we are gonna have

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an, an, anonymous banker is coming on later
I'd like them to discuss, golf media because
banking, golf seems like it makes a lot of sense.

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And I think golf is actually really interesting.

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But we want to get started a little bit
of a carryover from last week, although
we got some negative feedbacks and
I'll, I'll share that in a little bit.

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But one of the things I think I got wrong about
the decentralization of media was this assumption,
that I had that in a world flooded with content,
expertise would naturally rise in value.

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And the idea was like, there's more noise.

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So the signal will emerge.

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It will be more valuable than ever.

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And there's definitely examples of this,
but I think what it's led to is a creation
of what Alex Expertly branded and Troy
tried to rip off as the hyper pundits.

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And I'm gonna do my best of, of
sort of framing this, but to me.

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I think it's a flattening of hierarchy and
punditry works better than say, like news
reporting in this kind of environment.

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First of all, it's scalable,
it's flexible, and it's cheap.

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The margins are great on punditry.

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Kara Swisher probably makes orders of magnitude
more doing hyper punditry than she did when
she was running, a news operation at Recode.

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Same with Scott Galloway.

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I mean, I give this guy a lot of credit.

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I remember watching his videos when he was doing
it L two, that luxury consultancy, and I was
like, why is this ball guy doing these videos?

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People don't wanna look at that.

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And he just put in the 10,000

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hours, became really good at
it, and then didn't stay in his

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lane.

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I mean, he's now got like Prof chi markets.

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He like holds court on politics.

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He's, he's gonna reinvent masculinity.

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Alex: he's

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telling The young men how how to

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Troy: Brian, as a sign of

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the Times, I kind of f found this staggering
and maybe we can answer your question about.

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Whether you were wrong or not around
expertise, 'cause I don't think you're wrong,
but Scott interviewed the prime minister
of Canada on his prof, G pod yesterday.

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Brian: Yeah,

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Troy: I just think that's

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like a kind of important sign of where we're at.

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Brian: well, Jason Cals had to buy all these

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suits because, you know, they're like interviewing
like cabinet secretaries and hanging out

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at the White House, although it
seems like when they go to the

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White House, Jason, Jason doesn't get invited.

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but this is, you know, part
and parcel of this world.

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Alex: Jason, seems like a guy that
doesn't get invited to parties.

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Brian: I'm not gonna comment on that.

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But, you know, just a couple weeks
ago we had, you know, Nick Denton
on and he was like a short seller.

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I kept trying to ask him about media and he kept
wanting, wanting to like, go over to like the
Chinese battery production statistics and whatnot.

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and that's just, that's just
the way of the world these days.

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And to me.

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This is the way I look at it, and then
I want to get into the conversation.

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This is just another market that has just been
democratized and it's the marketplace of ideas has
become this insane, bizarre, and that was because
the supply was always artificially constricted.

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Now it's always

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one of those, be careful what you
wish for, but to me, the expert

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class in quotes, they're gonna just need to
compete with these information entrepreneurs.

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Like there's no putting the genie back in the

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bottle.

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So like whining about the fact that
venture capitalists, you know, are
holding forth on Ukraine and all the
rest of it isn't really gonna do much.

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I mean, the experts have to get better
at what, the information entrepreneurs
are running laps around them at.

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And that's mostly in presentation and
format and being able to mix it up and
look, infotainment has always done better
than like, quote unquote hard news.

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So I don't think this is
anything particularly new.

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So I wanna gi I wanna give it first to, to you
Alex, since you coined the term hyper pundit.

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I think there's some controversy
about that, but I think you

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Alex: There's no controversy about that.

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We have the rec, we have the receipts.

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Troy: I think actually the AI
invented it and you appropriated it.

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Alex: No, I mean, that's the risk though.

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Like, you go out and you start using
my term without telling who it is, and

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Troy: I didn't do it.

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Alex: then you ask AI and,

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and they

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Brian: We're, we're getting into
the decline of IP next, so, so

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we can

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Alex: So, so, but first, Brian, what was
the, you said we had, we had some blow

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Brian: Oh, well, the negative feedback was,

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you know, because nobody stays in their lanes.

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And so like, but to me,
like we, obviously this is,

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is media and tech and culture, so
that's very broad and, and you can't
avoid the the overall environment,
otherwise you're just gonna be myopic.

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And so I think last week we, we had a,

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a very, I, I thought it was an
enjoyable discussion, about expertise.

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and Troy had his, I, it should be
like a viral, would it be a screed?

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Troy?

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Troy?

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what was it like about Jamma pate?

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I think it was, it's scree.

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anyway, there was some politics in there,
but I didn't think it was too heavy Politics.

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But, I got an email, from a listener.

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I'll keep, I'll keep them, anonymous.

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And, this is what it said, Brian, the PVA
pod is just a very bad political show between
Alex and his Trump slash Elon Derangement
syndrome and Troy's embrace of the clearly
impaired tale of the wr. You have all

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lost the PVA plot.

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The show

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was great.

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Using the past tense there is tough.

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the other, this person, this correspondent
did say that they're happy that, my other

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podcast seems insulated for now.

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that was I guess, a bit of a threat and they urged

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go back and ask why PVA exists.

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and I, bet you'll find there isn't
much of a reason if you break
down the last six months of shows.

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So, there's that, dunno if I totally agree
on, on all of that, but I do think that
that is just a, a, a sign of the times.

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I mean, you can't, to me, I'm, I like this show
because we can go into a lot of different areas.

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Troy: Comments.

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Brian: I mean, you got compared to Te Taylor,
what is it that you're, Taylor Uh, it's,
this is offensive to both you and Taylor.

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Troy: it's more to me, it's an absurd note,
but, no, we appreciate the feedback, but
I, I don't likening me to Taylor Loren's.

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I mean, Alex does have Elon
Derangement syndrome, so I think that's

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Alex: Uh, I mean, it's true and
I have no, no reason for it.

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It's absolutely fine.

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He's fine, he's

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fine.

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He guys,

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every,

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Troy: Alex, well, I didn't
mean to trigger you, Alex.

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We're we're, let's focus on the

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question.

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Alex: not, I'm not,

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triggered.

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I'm fine.

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He's fine.

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Troy: Yeah, he's fine.

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Alex: He's, he's fine, right?

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Like, we all like

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him.

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He's fine.

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I

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Brian: this is a symptom.

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Alex: You know

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what, the funny

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Troy: No, no.

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So this is happening again.

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It's happening.

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Alex: Hang on, hang on.

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The funny thing, the, the, the irony, I
just wanna point out the irony of being of
someone telling you to stay in your lane when
you're complaining about Elon Sting in his

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lane.

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Like, you know when he was done building rockets,

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he decided to re reformat the government.

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So like, yeah, we all have

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opinions, man.

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I don't know who this is.

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Brian: But I think that is the, a core of
this is we do all have opinions and we got our

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like hot takes and whatnot, but I
think that gets at the heart of, of,

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what becomes hyper punditry.

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and I think it is like an enduring
feature of the information space.

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So unpack it for us.

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Alex, this is your term.

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This is

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trademarked.

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Alex: yeah, unpack it.

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I don't know.

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I, I, this podcast, you know, we say
it's about the intersection or the

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patterns in media, technology and culture.

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so we're gonna talk about
media, technology and culture.

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and unfortunately or

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fortunately, these are very broad topics.

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It's a very kind of wide circles that
form this really broad Venn diagram.

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and I wish we could have, you know,
I wish I was part of more like of a

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focused tech PO podcast.

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I like talking about this stuff, but unfortunately

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Brian: no

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no offense

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taken.

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Alex: No, I mean, I, I, it is mostly,
it's mostly because that's what I
know most about and I appreciate that.

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I don't know much about a lot of the other
topics, but what happens is, things are
constantly brought into the, the, the fray.

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Like it's impor possible to talk about culture
and media without, slipping into politics.

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It's very hard to keep your
opinion away from, from your takes.

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but I don't want to

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kind of dwell too much on that email.

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I kind of regret asking you to read it actually,
but it's, yeah, we, feedback is, always welcome.

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but, you know, none always agreed to, I
think the challenge for me with those,
those new types of pundits is that
there is no, there are no real stakes.

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because you don't really have to be Right.

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Right.

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I think, a lot of the, the tech journalists
that I used to read, and even Kara Swisher
used to have takes and they were playing
within their field, and therefore that
was their currency, that they would

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exist within tech and the quality of
their takes in tech would build up the
equity that they had in that market.

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But right now, everybody has

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a kind of be, is able to
bring, to be brought in, in,

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and and there's deliver

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so much content.

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It's kind of hard to see.

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To track what bullshit Scott Galloway
might have said, you know, he might
say 80% of stuff that, that sounds

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correct, and then it gets all

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chopped up and he has opinions about

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everything.

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So it's hard to, it's hard to grade those

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people.

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I think that's part of that challenge for me.

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and and when it's, whether it's Chamath
or one of, or Scott or, or any one of

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these guys, everybody's got opinion

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about everything.

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And that's a part of that is because,
I mean, we're, we're kind of in the
middle of it because culture, technology,
and media has all blended together.

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Like, you know, the, the business of
media, everybody participates in it.

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we're seeing kind of these,
you know, a hundred year old

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brands, that are you know, you

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competing against kind of dudes in

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their bedrooms.

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everybody has access to technology.

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Everybody has opinions and it's

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be, it's, and it's made this market where the only

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thing that you really need is.

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Some form of measure of

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success.

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So it could be, you know, oh, this
guy's got 16 million Twitter followers.

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Scott Galloway and Chamath are both rich guys.

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Like the amount of the the
pipeline from rich guy to

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influencer is huge because rich guys immediately

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get more attention immediately the,
their words come out truer because

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they say, well, This

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person's rich.

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The amount of times that I hear that, well, you
know, he is a billionaire, you know, he must know.

232
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Right?

233
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Brian: Well, maybe

234
00:11:19,107 --> 00:11:20,307
that's the new credential.

235
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You don't

236
00:11:20,802 --> 00:11:21,852
Alex: it's the new credential.

237
00:11:22,107 --> 00:11:22,512
Brian: the PhD

238
00:11:22,767 --> 00:11:28,287
Troy: Well, but let's deconstruct
it in maybe a bit different way,
talking about why, you know, trying to

239
00:11:28,287 --> 00:11:29,247
understand why.

240
00:11:29,847 --> 00:11:31,347
And the first is, Brian.

241
00:11:31,347 --> 00:11:36,897
I think that if you're gonna read about
something, expertise does really matter, right?

242
00:11:37,137 --> 00:11:47,867
Expertise in, you know, articulating a
position through, well-crafted argument
in a, you know, a written format.

243
00:11:48,797 --> 00:11:50,237
So I think that, you know,

244
00:11:50,237 --> 00:12:03,977
faced with a lot of options, you know, in,
in what you consume from, you know, people
putting, you know, text-based content primarily
out into the internet, you're gonna go to
where you find substance and expertise.

245
00:12:04,397 --> 00:12:11,447
I think that once you move to, you know, audio
and video, it's a very different equation.

246
00:12:12,047 --> 00:12:21,727
And, that's why comedians do so well here,
because your ability to engage in banter back
and forth to, you know, juggle both sides, of

247
00:12:21,727 --> 00:12:30,127
a position without maybe the depth substance,
you know, bonafides, whatever becomes, you
know, the thing that wins in the medium.

248
00:12:30,457 --> 00:12:35,197
And then as you know, institutionalized
media starts to disintegrate.

249
00:12:35,797 --> 00:12:37,627
Where do people that are important?

250
00:12:37,717 --> 00:12:41,287
Like this is imp Like, it, it,
it's pre pretty interesting, right?

251
00:12:41,287 --> 00:12:41,617
Like.

252
00:12:41,992 --> 00:12:56,932
Where does Carney, the prime minister of like,
you know, a big country, go to be heard in America
and he is gonna go to where the people are and you
know, so is Scott Galloway a credible interviewer?

253
00:12:56,932 --> 00:12:59,512
I think he can do an okay job in that forum.

254
00:12:59,872 --> 00:13:06,832
Does he have, you know, the structure and,
and, and, and, and all of the things that
we would expect in institutional media to

255
00:13:06,832 --> 00:13:14,902
prepare for that discussion and, you know,
to maybe intersect it with, you know, experts
or, you know, provide the right kind of form.

256
00:13:14,902 --> 00:13:18,052
Maybe it's not perfect, but it's
still a place for discussion.

257
00:13:18,652 --> 00:13:26,692
And we're seeing this kind of emergence
of the, this kind of public commons
where people kind of talk it out.

258
00:13:27,142 --> 00:13:39,982
And so then we see, and we know that the
first and most important thing is, as you
said at this kind of in infotainment equation,
that's why you see the emergence of debate
because debate is, is is something that.

259
00:13:40,402 --> 00:13:50,332
Creates, you know, tension and throws the
audience into the frame, because now I can
take a side, I can participate, but also,

260
00:13:50,572 --> 00:13:58,492
you know, we're getting this other sort
of slightly performative thing where Ezra
Kline goes on the All In podcast, right?

261
00:13:58,492 --> 00:14:02,332
Where Steve Bannon is invited
onto the Newsom podcast

262
00:14:02,527 --> 00:14:04,027
Brian: it's the man in the arena.

263
00:14:04,192 --> 00:14:07,882
Troy: yeah, it's, and is it a
display of courage from Ezra?

264
00:14:08,032 --> 00:14:19,182
Is it a sort of, is it, is it, is it, is
it his social obligation that he feels he
needs to defend the virtues of liberal, you
know, thinking inside of the lion's den?

265
00:14:19,642 --> 00:14:22,732
You know, I, I, I'm not quite sure
what the, is he promoting the book?

266
00:14:22,732 --> 00:14:24,712
I think sort of all of the above, right?

267
00:14:25,222 --> 00:14:35,332
And, but, but really what's happening
is podcasting has, in, in my mind
it's sort of like if, if text.

268
00:14:36,037 --> 00:14:42,667
Democratic publishing of, you know, upended
media, like, like, you know, legacy media.

269
00:14:42,817 --> 00:14:45,427
Podcasting is building on that, right?

270
00:14:45,427 --> 00:14:53,857
Like now, all of the people that are in
my podcast feed, I mean, some of them
may be monetized by established media
like Vox, but they're all independence.

271
00:14:54,457 --> 00:15:08,887
Like no one listens to, I mean, maybe
you listen to like Morning Update from
NPR, but you're not listening to like
CBS podcasts, you're not listening to Fox
Podcasts, you're listening to Independence.

272
00:15:09,487 --> 00:15:20,637
You know, the structure's completely broken
down and therefore the people that win from an
audience perspective, are the ones that have, you
know, manufactured a product that that travels.

273
00:15:20,997 --> 00:15:22,047
And so that, that's what's

274
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Brian: Yeah, mean, it's kind of like the
packaging is almost more important than the quote,
what used to be the substance of the product.

275
00:15:30,384 --> 00:15:30,534
Right?

276
00:15:30,534 --> 00:15:35,574
Which is, to me, indicative of
where we are just overall, right?

277
00:15:35,574 --> 00:15:43,794
Like the tariffs have brought very clear that most
of our companies in America don't make anything.

278
00:15:44,214 --> 00:15:45,084
They're brands.

279
00:15:45,639 --> 00:15:48,669
And they, they might design it or something.

280
00:15:48,669 --> 00:15:52,899
They might send the CAD design over
to, to the supply chain in China.

281
00:15:53,289 --> 00:16:01,299
I dunno if you've seen all these TikTok
videos from the OEM manufacturers, which
by the way has been a great advertisement
for those who want to ban TikTok.

282
00:16:01,299 --> 00:16:08,229
'cause it's very clear what the Chinese government
could do with TikTok, for instance, to get, their
viewpoints in front of, the American people.

283
00:16:08,659 --> 00:16:13,759
but they've all been basically, you know, pulling
back the curtain on the fact that none of these.

284
00:16:14,194 --> 00:16:17,674
Quote unquote, luxury brands make anything really.

285
00:16:17,824 --> 00:16:22,864
I mean, they might do a little
bit of final stitching in Italy,
but it's all done in, in China.

286
00:16:23,014 --> 00:16:29,684
And you know, they got really mad, I think for a
good reason when, JD Vance called them peasants.

287
00:16:29,784 --> 00:16:30,744
I've never been to China.

288
00:16:30,744 --> 00:16:32,394
Everything I see from there, they're not peasants.

289
00:16:32,399 --> 00:16:35,424
They've got some, I saw some drone delivery.

290
00:16:35,424 --> 00:16:38,484
They, somebody got a
cheeseburger delivered by drone.

291
00:16:38,944 --> 00:16:46,225
anyway, I, I think that that is part of all
of this in that the packaging in some ways
becomes more important in the substance.

292
00:16:46,225 --> 00:16:57,025
And I think when you're talking about this,
when you talk about infotainment, the,
the being able to package an argument and
being entertaining and being compelling
is more important than being credentialed

293
00:16:57,820 --> 00:16:58,120
Alex: Yeah.

294
00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:06,610
I mean, which is why I kind of think Troy Troy's
point, and we had another email from someone
who, who mentioned that, I mean, Troy's point

295
00:17:06,610 --> 00:17:15,220
last week was that, you know, sometimes he
wants to hear from the economist or, or from an
economist or a scientist about a scientific topic.

296
00:17:15,220 --> 00:17:17,110
But I think pundits were never that.

297
00:17:17,110 --> 00:17:22,420
And if they were economists and, and scientists,
they might have not been the best one, but
they were definitely the most entertaining.

298
00:17:22,420 --> 00:17:22,780
Right.

299
00:17:23,180 --> 00:17:26,480
and it is, it is entirely,
it is entirely entertainment.

300
00:17:26,900 --> 00:17:31,880
But the, the, the, the challenge I
have, and I wonder if it's like, do
you think it's kind of the death of.

301
00:17:32,435 --> 00:17:41,075
You know, we, we've talked about this before
there, the death of the written word and
the fact that even that term podcast is not
the right, it's not the right media format.

302
00:17:41,075 --> 00:17:46,655
Those are like just little shows they
exist on, you know, they're distributed on
podcasts, they exist on YouTube, et cetera.

303
00:17:47,105 --> 00:17:53,355
And, and because of the format, because
of the long form format, there's a lot
less scrutiny on what's being said.

304
00:17:53,715 --> 00:18:00,415
Like, I know that if we had to record a 20 minute
podcast that then had to be transcribed into
something readable, I would definitely fail.

305
00:18:00,985 --> 00:18:01,405
Right.

306
00:18:01,465 --> 00:18:06,565
Brian: you're actually arguing against yourself,
who you're, you're the anti writing person on this

307
00:18:06,895 --> 00:18:08,005
Alex: I'm not the anti Right.

308
00:18:09,925 --> 00:18:10,795
Brian: I'll turn on you.

309
00:18:11,545 --> 00:18:12,500
Alex: Just go ahead.

310
00:18:12,865 --> 00:18:13,945
This is what makes good.

311
00:18:14,125 --> 00:18:15,355
It's a good infotainment.

312
00:18:15,415 --> 00:18:16,705
Brian: what, I know what retails,

313
00:18:16,925 --> 00:18:19,505
Troy: the, but Brian said I,
he's sent calling you illiterate.

314
00:18:19,979 --> 00:18:20,819
Alex: Yeah, that's right.

315
00:18:21,659 --> 00:18:24,029
Brian: I didn't go that far,
although that might work.

316
00:18:24,700 --> 00:18:25,150
Alex: Yeah,

317
00:18:25,585 --> 00:18:26,554
Brian: No, but you're anti writing.

318
00:18:26,584 --> 00:18:32,794
'cause to me, like writing, the reason that
Jeff Bezos has this thing about writing out
everything in a memo is because you can't hide.

319
00:18:33,124 --> 00:18:41,554
You when you have like shitty logic, you
cannot hide it in, in writing if, if someone
knows how to truly do critical reading.

320
00:18:41,824 --> 00:18:49,104
Whereas you can do all kinds of
performative hand waving stuff, verbally
and particularly when, when, in person too.

321
00:18:49,164 --> 00:18:52,944
I mean, like I always, there's people
who were always great at meetings, right?

322
00:18:53,334 --> 00:18:54,954
And like, then you started unpacking.

323
00:18:54,954 --> 00:18:57,504
You're like, oh, that's just
like charisma and confidence.

324
00:18:57,504 --> 00:18:59,214
There's like literally no substance here.

325
00:18:59,334 --> 00:19:00,474
We've all had that experience.

326
00:19:00,474 --> 00:19:00,984
I think

327
00:19:01,584 --> 00:19:03,514
Troy: Yeah, I just was sort of breaking down.

328
00:19:03,844 --> 00:19:07,074
Maybe you guys can help me, like
what would've happened before.

329
00:19:07,974 --> 00:19:11,372
So, Mark Carney has, a agenda.

330
00:19:11,972 --> 00:19:26,192
And so Mark Carney has legions of PR people
and, you know, foreign service people
that would say you are going, how do we
influence this, you know, evil company
that's, you know, tanking our economy.

331
00:19:26,792 --> 00:19:39,572
And so Mark Carney has to go somewhere,
do something, travel to Washington, get
on CNN, you know, I don't know, do a long
form interview on 60 minutes or something.

332
00:19:40,052 --> 00:19:49,345
And there used to be a structure for that, or
maybe it was less important before because we
didn't hash these things out in, in public.

333
00:19:49,945 --> 00:20:00,085
And so you, you have basically a new
mechanism for someone that has an old
fashioned PR objective, like the prime
minister of a country wanting to influence.

334
00:20:00,415 --> 00:20:03,205
The dialogue in, in, in, in another country.

335
00:20:03,715 --> 00:20:16,285
And then you have a whole, a different kind
of thing where a whole new kind of legion
of entitled, sort of quote unquote first
principle thinkers out of Silicon Valley

336
00:20:16,585 --> 00:20:26,575
who've succeeded in building a product and
accumulating wealth now asserting themselves,
which is the big shift that's happened
in Washington on the public space, right?

337
00:20:26,665 --> 00:20:34,100
So this is, you know, everyone that's
got money and influence from Silicon
Valley kind of, marching on Washington.

338
00:20:34,700 --> 00:20:44,520
And, and there it's a different thing because
you've got a new type of participant in this,
kind of information space wanting to influence.

339
00:20:45,120 --> 00:20:46,740
Policy and how we think.

340
00:20:46,770 --> 00:20:58,740
And that ranges from, you know, people that have
been absorbed into, you know, into Washington like
Sachs to the guys in the All In Podcast to like,
I would argue Palmer Lucky on being interviewed

341
00:20:58,740 --> 00:21:09,120
by Rick Rubin and advancing, you know, his new
kind of point of view on the failure of the
American kind of military industrial complex.

342
00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:10,050
Right.

343
00:21:10,170 --> 00:21:15,210
Like the, the, and where would Palmer
Lucky have gone before to do that?

344
00:21:15,810 --> 00:21:16,860
It didn't exist,

345
00:21:17,190 --> 00:21:20,100
Brian: I mean, he would get
like a Fortune article or

346
00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:20,850
Troy: right?

347
00:21:20,850 --> 00:21:23,640
Massively processed through a machine,

348
00:21:23,655 --> 00:21:27,225
Alex: I mean, he'd write, he'd need to write
a, I mean, here's what it used, used to happen.

349
00:21:27,225 --> 00:21:33,755
You'd write a book and then you'd do a
press tour and you'd, you'd repeat your
talking points, on that press tour.

350
00:21:33,935 --> 00:21:37,355
You'd get some media training to make
sure that you get all your points across.

351
00:21:37,385 --> 00:21:39,635
And, and you'd do that for
a month and a half, right?

352
00:21:39,995 --> 00:21:41,255
Isn't that what people would do?

353
00:21:41,945 --> 00:21:50,055
So, uh, but, but now, now it can be, I'm gonna
drop a tweet, and then I'm gonna go, you know,
and I'm, and I'm going on these podcasts.

354
00:21:50,055 --> 00:21:54,555
Everybody, everybody wins because I mean,
even Ezra Klein, I ping on the All In.

355
00:21:54,555 --> 00:21:57,735
That's like, that's, you know,
audience capture in a lot of ways.

356
00:21:57,765 --> 00:21:58,185
You know?

357
00:21:58,545 --> 00:22:03,105
Oh, we bring an audience that wasn't,
that has less of an overlap with ours.

358
00:22:03,165 --> 00:22:04,425
And so it grows our audience.

359
00:22:04,425 --> 00:22:06,795
Everybody wins and everybody's in on it.

360
00:22:06,795 --> 00:22:10,125
Because as a client, Al also wants
to do audience capture, you know?

361
00:22:10,435 --> 00:22:16,240
and now, I mean, it's, I. You know, our
governor here in California has his own podcast,
so, so that becomes the deal with him now.

362
00:22:16,390 --> 00:22:17,200
And now I wonder how

363
00:22:17,380 --> 00:22:18,745
Troy: It really is bizarre.

364
00:22:18,745 --> 00:22:24,985
It really, and it got me thinking because I would
contrast two types of formats or podcast formats.

365
00:22:25,015 --> 00:22:28,285
'cause I listened to them back
to back yesterday in the car.

366
00:22:28,675 --> 00:22:35,335
And one was Newsom interviewing
Ra Emmanuel Ram Emmanuel.

367
00:22:35,935 --> 00:22:40,915
who is a very compelling speaker and may well
be the Democratic candidate for president.

368
00:22:41,515 --> 00:22:45,325
And so it was kind of interesting 'cause
they're both vying for that, right?

369
00:22:45,715 --> 00:22:52,465
But with Newsom, what you get is, I think he
was civil to Bannon in some ways engaged them.

370
00:22:52,465 --> 00:22:58,705
This is one of the problems on the left where
the, they've been effectively de platformed
by Trump and they're trying to figure out

371
00:22:58,705 --> 00:23:06,945
where they sit alongside, you know, right
wing media or right wing, you know, kind of
the, the, the right wing influencer class.

372
00:23:07,245 --> 00:23:11,385
But you've got a guy doing
a podcast who has an agenda.

373
00:23:11,985 --> 00:23:13,485
Newsom has an agenda.

374
00:23:14,085 --> 00:23:26,977
So he, he brings that to his podcast as
opposed to, Rick Rubin who just comes as a
sort of like music kind of geek who doesn't
know anything and just asks good questions.

375
00:23:28,312 --> 00:23:38,722
He sits and he gives Palmer lucky an immense
amount of space, and just tries to find a
way to guide the conversation by not really
saying anything, not having a point of view,

376
00:23:39,052 --> 00:23:50,392
not inserting himself into the debate, but
just giving someone a platform with really
intelligent prompts, which I would sort of say
probably mirrors how he operates in the studio.

377
00:23:50,572 --> 00:23:52,522
I'm not here to make music for you.

378
00:23:53,122 --> 00:23:55,642
I'm here to help you make
the best music you can make.

379
00:23:56,182 --> 00:24:04,892
Alex: Yeah, the, the, the problem with that
is that there is absolutely no, there are
absolutely no boundaries to what's being said.

380
00:24:04,892 --> 00:24:07,312
There's no, attention to what's being said.

381
00:24:07,312 --> 00:24:11,962
I think Lex Friedman is, is, is also guilty
of that playing the, I'm just here to listen.

382
00:24:12,262 --> 00:24:22,992
But what you're creating is you're packaging
a media product for people, and you, you
are authenticating the stuff that's being
said just by having it on your podcast
because the format is meant to be debate.

383
00:24:23,367 --> 00:24:23,727
Right.

384
00:24:23,907 --> 00:24:29,337
The format is not just I'm, you know, this is,
this, this, I mean, Troy, you must have done it.

385
00:24:29,337 --> 00:24:34,677
It's the fire set format where you go in,
it's a friendly crowd, somebody's just
prompting you so you can say things, right?

386
00:24:34,677 --> 00:24:46,107
So you can kind of frame your argument
to the audience and, and by doing that,
you're legitimizing whatever content comes
out of your mouth because that person on
the other side is not there to debate you.

387
00:24:46,617 --> 00:24:47,037
Right?

388
00:24:47,277 --> 00:24:54,527
You know, Rick Rubin and Lex Freeman oftentimes
just are incredibly passive and just, just
reinforce the thing that you're saying.

389
00:24:54,887 --> 00:24:57,197
And I think that's, that's a
disservice to the audience,

390
00:24:57,537 --> 00:25:01,412
Brian: But I, you know, who are you to say,
honestly, like, I mean, that's just preference.

391
00:25:01,897 --> 00:25:03,482
Why, why is one better than the other?

392
00:25:03,482 --> 00:25:07,172
I mean, there's, there's plenty of
adversarial interviews out there.

393
00:25:07,172 --> 00:25:15,392
I mean, there, why can this format, this, this
approach not exist alongside and be additive?

394
00:25:15,392 --> 00:25:24,272
I think you get different, you, I don't
expect Theo Vaughn to be grilling Trump
on the intricacies of the tariff policy.

395
00:25:24,332 --> 00:25:25,832
I mean, I'd actually like to see that.

396
00:25:26,332 --> 00:25:26,722
but I don't

397
00:25:27,182 --> 00:25:27,582
Alex: I, I,

398
00:25:27,699 --> 00:25:29,229
so here's the thing.

399
00:25:29,799 --> 00:25:31,299
I don't disagree with you.

400
00:25:31,299 --> 00:25:41,079
The problem is that when there's so much
choice, I, and there's, and there's so many
ways of getting my message out there, I'm
not going to go to the one that gets grilled.

401
00:25:41,259 --> 00:25:43,509
I'm not gonna do the 60 minute interview anymore.

402
00:25:43,719 --> 00:25:47,169
I'm not gonna go to the thing
that's actually going to, you know,

403
00:25:47,199 --> 00:25:49,479
Troy: Which is why the Ezra thing was cool.

404
00:25:49,509 --> 00:25:49,899
Cool.

405
00:25:49,899 --> 00:26:00,189
Alex, because like Sacks came at him in Larry
Summers, like it was, it had the feeling of
a kinda hostile debate club in high school

406
00:26:00,676 --> 00:26:01,486
Alex: to who won.

407
00:26:02,059 --> 00:26:02,599
Troy: well.

408
00:26:02,749 --> 00:26:03,049
Brian: wins.

409
00:26:03,049 --> 00:26:03,709
Nobody wins in

410
00:26:03,814 --> 00:26:04,984
Troy: No one ever wins.

411
00:26:04,984 --> 00:26:07,409
It's, it's like, did you enjoy the performance?

412
00:26:08,024 --> 00:26:09,944
Brian: Yeah, were you entertained?

413
00:26:10,004 --> 00:26:11,294
That's what's important.

414
00:26:11,504 --> 00:26:20,714
And you know, the, the important thing is
to have the clips that your supporters can
use to validate their, their viewpoints.

415
00:26:20,714 --> 00:26:22,934
That's, that's the, that's the end goal.

416
00:26:23,204 --> 00:26:23,714
That's why I don't

417
00:26:23,744 --> 00:26:24,119
Alex: do you think that's

418
00:26:24,194 --> 00:26:24,824
valuable?

419
00:26:24,824 --> 00:26:25,424
I mean, do you think

420
00:26:25,454 --> 00:26:28,304
Brian: well, I had a little back
and forth with Ben Smith about that.

421
00:26:28,304 --> 00:26:30,314
Like, he just sent me like three words about it.

422
00:26:30,314 --> 00:26:38,609
But like, you know, like they, he had
on Jubilee Media's, CEO, Jason Lee, and
they do a lot of these debate things.

423
00:26:38,609 --> 00:26:45,989
They're almost like that, like, do you know Lily
Phillips, the like porn stars, like sleeping
with a thousand dudes in a day or something.

424
00:26:45,989 --> 00:26:51,029
It's like the stunt thing, like even like porn now
has this like element or the spectacle element,

425
00:26:51,311 --> 00:26:53,944
Alex: you gotta get, you gotta
get picked up by the algorithm.

426
00:26:54,031 --> 00:26:55,051
Troy: it never had it before.

427
00:26:56,576 --> 00:26:58,016
Brian: Well, I don't, I, I don't know.

428
00:26:58,016 --> 00:27:03,056
I didn't, I I, I haven't followed,
this is outside of my lane, so I'll,
I'm gonna defer to you on that one,

429
00:27:03,161 --> 00:27:05,531
Alex: We found one thing that
was outside of Brian's lane.

430
00:27:06,236 --> 00:27:06,956
Brian: Yeah, exactly.

431
00:27:07,506 --> 00:27:08,775
there's just no market for that.

432
00:27:08,775 --> 00:27:10,885
I'm smart, smart enough for to know that.

433
00:27:11,065 --> 00:27:15,775
But they do a lot of these videos, like Pete Judi,
Buttigieg, I don't know how to say his name still.

434
00:27:15,865 --> 00:27:17,875
Troy: That poor porn star's father.

435
00:27:18,055 --> 00:27:20,335
I mean, God, that's horrible.

436
00:27:20,966 --> 00:27:22,046
Brian: it's the marketplace.

437
00:27:22,258 --> 00:27:22,738
Troy: awful.

438
00:27:23,106 --> 00:27:24,516
Brian: look, it's a very crowded marketplace.

439
00:27:24,516 --> 00:27:30,862
You got o OnlyFans has like exploded
that, and so you gotta, again, it's
competitive like any of these marketplaces.

440
00:27:31,252 --> 00:27:42,862
But Jubilee Media does a lot of this with Pete
Buttigieg trying to convince 35, Undecided
voters or Charlie Kirk taking on like, I don't
know, like a hundred, like angry Gen Z women.

441
00:27:43,232 --> 00:27:45,692
and to me it's, it's spectacle.

442
00:27:45,692 --> 00:27:47,222
It's not, and that's fine.

443
00:27:47,222 --> 00:27:54,602
Like, and the reality is, like you said, you
know, you, you're not gonna have Cheetos for
dinner, but like, you can have Cheetos for dinner.

444
00:27:54,692 --> 00:27:59,072
Like if you wanna have Cheetos for
dinner, nobody's gonna stop you
from having Cheetos for dinner.

445
00:27:59,522 --> 00:28:08,722
So, you know, ultimately I think that this needs
to be hashed out by people, just be choosing
to have a more nutritious, information diet.

446
00:28:09,232 --> 00:28:18,712
And I understand that in the marketplace, just
like in food, you know, fast food does well
because it's convenient, it's cheap, it, it's got
a lot of carbs and it's satisfying in the moment.

447
00:28:19,241 --> 00:28:23,376
Alex: I don't think we should expect people to
go out and choose the best information diet.

448
00:28:23,376 --> 00:28:27,225
I think at the very least with food,
you have some sort of labeling.

449
00:28:27,285 --> 00:28:30,915
I mean, here you don't, it's really hard
to understand what is a valid source.

450
00:28:30,915 --> 00:28:40,395
I mean, I don't even know, I know that I'm
picking off my biases and to think I, you
know, I listen to what I want to hear, and
I totally get the thing where you go into
a debate and you, I mean, it's so funny.

451
00:28:40,395 --> 00:28:48,255
Every time there's one of those left versus right
debates, you'll find little clips on YouTube
and you say, destiny destroys right wing pundit.

452
00:28:48,465 --> 00:28:52,005
And then, you know, the other one is
like, Charlie Kirk destroys destiny.

453
00:28:52,005 --> 00:28:53,295
It's the same fucking thing.

454
00:28:53,685 --> 00:28:55,125
It's the same fucking interview.

455
00:28:55,455 --> 00:28:58,515
And, and, and of course, and
of course that's the deal.

456
00:28:58,515 --> 00:29:06,165
And I, and, you know, we've, we've talked
for a long time on this podcast about the,
you know, everything being entertainment
and that's what's winning right now.

457
00:29:06,165 --> 00:29:08,985
And it's definitely reinforced
by the way the algorithms work.

458
00:29:09,850 --> 00:29:11,165
and, and what they surface.

459
00:29:11,375 --> 00:29:15,305
But I don't know if, if it's really,
practical to have a healthy media diet these

460
00:29:15,305 --> 00:29:15,545
days.

461
00:29:15,575 --> 00:29:16,325
I don't think mines

462
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:25,880
Brian: think, but,  but I do think it
plays into something that you've astutely
mentioned before, which is the participatory
nature of media that is ascendant right now.

463
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:29,660
I mean, if you look at, just take like
the Minecraft movie, what is it called?

464
00:29:29,690 --> 00:29:31,100
A a, a Minecraft movie.

465
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:34,553
it's getting all these kids to go out there
having like mini riots in the theater.

466
00:29:34,553 --> 00:29:37,273
Like it's a participatory, experience.

467
00:29:37,303 --> 00:29:41,623
I mean, Mr. Beast built like
his empire on basically content.

468
00:29:41,623 --> 00:29:42,763
That's a game.

469
00:29:42,793 --> 00:29:45,073
Taylor Swift concerts or rituals.

470
00:29:45,393 --> 00:29:47,943
you know, Fox, did you see this new Fox?

471
00:29:48,043 --> 00:29:51,703
it's like a game show slash reality show
that there may, I think this is a great idea.

472
00:29:51,913 --> 00:30:00,403
They basically locked four people in
some sort of upstate asylum, right
after the inauguration until recently.

473
00:30:00,403 --> 00:30:05,083
And then they're, they're surfacing them
and then they're going to have a game
show in which they try to guess which

474
00:30:05,263 --> 00:30:08,143
Troy: This is a, this is a
brilliant, brilliant concept.

475
00:30:08,143 --> 00:30:08,953
Brian: Which is fake.

476
00:30:09,553 --> 00:30:12,288
Alex: Um, that I, it's super smart.

477
00:30:12,288 --> 00:30:16,728
It also sounds like something made
up for a dystopian movie, doesn't it?

478
00:30:16,758 --> 00:30:17,778
It's just crazy.

479
00:30:17,778 --> 00:30:19,488
It's, I mean, it is amazing though.

480
00:30:19,488 --> 00:30:20,418
I gotta give it to them.

481
00:30:20,478 --> 00:30:21,078
That sounds

482
00:30:21,183 --> 00:30:27,183
Troy: Yeah, so really what it is, is an
admission that you cannot predict the
shit that we're experiencing right now.

483
00:30:27,423 --> 00:30:32,133
So we're gonna put people in a box and then
expose them to the reality of our times.

484
00:30:32,283 --> 00:30:35,073
Just to show you how ridiculous and crazy this

485
00:30:35,283 --> 00:30:35,720
Brian: I love it.

486
00:30:35,763 --> 00:30:36,633
I love this stuff.

487
00:30:36,783 --> 00:30:39,753
I mean, I liked even the David Blaine
stuff, so like I'm a sucker for this.

488
00:30:40,545 --> 00:30:40,935
Troy: True.

489
00:30:41,535 --> 00:30:47,722
Alex: You know, it's like that, that, that
Japanese World War II soldier that was discovered,
you know, 20 years after the war ended,

490
00:30:48,022 --> 00:30:49,339
Brian: so Alex, what is your take?

491
00:30:49,339 --> 00:30:50,569
Like why, what is.

492
00:30:51,244 --> 00:30:53,314
Participation is the point, right?

493
00:30:53,314 --> 00:30:59,704
Like, so how I, to me that's the interesting, it's
like how do you design media around participation?

494
00:30:59,734 --> 00:31:18,304
Because this is, this is a real challenge
for the industrial side of media where all
the processes, all the skill sets, all of the
rewards were around really a passive one-way
experience and this participatory experience.

495
00:31:18,304 --> 00:31:27,874
And you're from the video game world, you know,
like it's not one that comes like easily to a lot
of people from the traditional media industry.

496
00:31:28,474 --> 00:31:40,234
Alex: No, it's actually, I mean, it's, it's
it across media and art and we talked last
week about, you know, I mentioned how supers
stardom or, or the, the, the traditional.

497
00:31:40,624 --> 00:31:47,554
concept of, of a superstar, kind
of like this, like a-list or George
Clooney, it's kind of, it's going away.

498
00:31:47,814 --> 00:31:53,814
it used to be like everybody kind of were,
were, were, and, and with that, a lot of, like,
the paparazzi stuff is going away as well.

499
00:31:53,814 --> 00:31:57,254
There were these, celebrities
that nobody had access to, right?

500
00:31:57,284 --> 00:32:01,424
And you just, you knew them for being
famous and you really wanted access to them.

501
00:32:01,424 --> 00:32:09,194
So the way to get access was through, you
know, either a late night interview or
vanity affair cover, or a paparazzi shot.

502
00:32:09,284 --> 00:32:16,394
And like that stuff, I feel, is slowly
dying because the act of celebrity
right now is the act of access, right?

503
00:32:16,744 --> 00:32:21,394
YouTubers start with, you know, Hey guys, you
know, they're talking straight to their audience.

504
00:32:21,684 --> 00:32:23,454
they're communicating straight to their audience.

505
00:32:23,454 --> 00:32:29,454
You know, destiny has these feeds where,
you know, chat is just like running while
he's having an interview with someone.

506
00:32:29,764 --> 00:32:33,094
and, and it's all become, just like this.

507
00:32:33,439 --> 00:32:40,429
Para social access game, where you are, you
are, you know, connecting with your audience.

508
00:32:40,429 --> 00:32:47,219
You bring your audience along with you, you know,
when you go for an interview somewhere else,
which is why that whole, exchange works so well.

509
00:32:47,219 --> 00:32:54,049
You know, you jump on my podcast and
bring some of my audience with you,
they jump, you know, and then, and then
we do the same, game in, in reverse.

510
00:32:54,379 --> 00:33:01,159
and so having that audience that you carry
along with you and communicating with them and
managing them through all sorts of ways, right?

511
00:33:01,159 --> 00:33:03,199
I think we wanna do more stuff on Substack.

512
00:33:03,199 --> 00:33:09,049
We wanna do more stuff between,
podcasts and newsletters where we
communicate with our, with our users.

513
00:33:09,109 --> 00:33:16,029
We definitely have users that have followed
us since the beginning that, you know, send us
notes, you know, in, in, you know, that, that,

514
00:33:16,029 --> 00:33:22,089
that don't feel like this kind of traditional,
like, we're making media, we're putting
it out there and people are consuming it.

515
00:33:22,539 --> 00:33:26,529
so I, I think that whole thing is
changing and I don't know where it's
headed, but it's very different.

516
00:33:26,879 --> 00:33:37,249
and it also creates this, Content that exists
outside of the entertainer or outside of the,
the pundit class where if you, like Troy, you
talked about those Chamath fan boys, right?

517
00:33:37,429 --> 00:33:40,669
Like every one of these guys,
Ezra has the same, right?

518
00:33:40,879 --> 00:33:53,909
The All In podcast has the same, you, you'll,
you'll go to these, these folks, discord
and Reddit, and there's stuff happening
around their celebrity and their content
all the time by a community all the time.

519
00:33:54,059 --> 00:34:04,199
Very active people fighting for them in the
trenches, you know, you know, pulling stuff
out from another podcast that somebody said
about them and making sure that they see the

520
00:34:04,214 --> 00:34:07,214
Brian: you need a legion, Alex,
you're, you're developing a legion.

521
00:34:07,634 --> 00:34:11,744
You know Elon is developing his
legion and you, and you're developing
in your own way, your legion.

522
00:34:12,303 --> 00:34:12,929
Alex: that's right?

523
00:34:13,529 --> 00:34:16,019
I am I Where, where you

524
00:34:16,919 --> 00:34:17,639
Brian: I get notes all the

525
00:34:17,819 --> 00:34:17,939
Alex: I'm

526
00:34:17,969 --> 00:34:18,629
not seeing those

527
00:34:18,659 --> 00:34:19,049
Brian: about you.

528
00:34:19,129 --> 00:34:24,629
I th I think for grow, I think for
growth, we need to, we need to throw
Troy into the all in thunderdome,

529
00:34:25,089 --> 00:34:26,444
Alex: I mean, that's what we need to do.

530
00:34:26,620 --> 00:34:29,020
Brian: let, let Sax and Chamath maul

531
00:34:29,020 --> 00:34:29,410
him.

532
00:34:29,470 --> 00:34:29,710
And,

533
00:34:30,887 --> 00:34:36,495
Alex: do you think he's, he's gonna
let Sachs Red pill him, and then
you've always been our sax, Troy.

534
00:34:37,355 --> 00:34:37,865
Troy: Mm-hmm.

535
00:34:38,010 --> 00:34:38,820
Brian: those guys are brutal.

536
00:34:38,825 --> 00:34:42,300
The, the debate the debate guys, you don't
wanna get involved in with, you know,

537
00:34:42,340 --> 00:34:42,540
Alex: I mean,

538
00:34:42,705 --> 00:34:44,445
sax is very good at what he does.

539
00:34:44,850 --> 00:34:45,353
Brian: yeah, he's,

540
00:34:45,420 --> 00:34:46,410
he's debate club.

541
00:34:46,590 --> 00:34:48,420
Debate club is in innocent.

542
00:34:48,700 --> 00:34:52,719
any thoughts on this story before we
move on to IP law And it's discontent.

543
00:34:52,814 --> 00:34:54,374
Troy: No, I think Alex did a good job.

544
00:34:54,374 --> 00:35:06,524
I mean, I, I think once again, we're seeing
the cultural importance of a, of a, a
generation raised on gaming, and I think
that that, that, that visual is really

545
00:35:06,524 --> 00:35:13,874
influential to me of like having the chat
flow down the side while you're engaged
with a headphone on, like in, in the media.

546
00:35:14,474 --> 00:35:25,664
I think that, I think that that for, for a
lot of people, the idea of sitting back and
reading an article is lost on their generation.

547
00:35:26,204 --> 00:35:35,624
It's either coming at you via video or
you're participating in it, or you're
making it, you know, you know, or
you're engaged in some shape or form.

548
00:35:35,624 --> 00:35:43,214
And I, I think that it's, it's kind
of a requirement for, for the next
generation of successful media,

549
00:35:43,814 --> 00:35:51,134
Brian: This is why I am very, just as an
aside, this is why I am very excited for
my upcoming online forum, next week, on

550
00:35:51,594 --> 00:35:54,089
Troy: you know, you, you
end up positioning yourself

551
00:35:54,089 --> 00:35:58,199
as like a, A BA B2B grandpa, like you should cool.

552
00:35:58,199 --> 00:35:59,879
It, it is, it's not cool.

553
00:36:00,629 --> 00:36:01,649
Brian: What are you talking about?

554
00:36:01,649 --> 00:36:02,939
I just, it's very pertinent.

555
00:36:02,939 --> 00:36:04,709
You talked about it being participatory.

556
00:36:04,709 --> 00:36:12,179
The great thing about the online forum with
Marigold about email newsletter personalization
is that I've got one pain, it's like destiny.

557
00:36:12,179 --> 00:36:20,879
I'm like, destiny on these things,
except we're talking about email and
open rates and, and so we've got people
incoming, we've got a lot of questions.

558
00:36:20,879 --> 00:36:21,629
We weave it in there.

559
00:36:21,629 --> 00:36:22,739
It's totally participatory.

560
00:36:22,889 --> 00:36:25,589
Otherwise, it's just like a,
a video of people watch live.

561
00:36:25,589 --> 00:36:26,339
Why would they want that?

562
00:36:26,339 --> 00:36:27,809
So you gotta have the participation.

563
00:36:28,409 --> 00:36:28,829
let's move

564
00:36:28,934 --> 00:36:29,354
Alex: you,

565
00:36:29,714 --> 00:36:31,064
just before, just before

566
00:36:31,109 --> 00:36:31,709
Brian: Oh, what do you want?

567
00:36:31,709 --> 00:36:32,819
The time that it's at?

568
00:36:32,819 --> 00:36:34,009
1:00 PM Eastern

569
00:36:34,954 --> 00:36:36,664
Alex: yes, that's what I wanted also.

570
00:36:36,664 --> 00:36:50,018
Did you, do you want to, I, I've, I've talked
to a few teachers and, you know, my, my wife
works in, in schools and 90% of the kids, when
you ask them what they want to be, they wanna
be a streamer, they want to be a YouTuber.

571
00:36:50,408 --> 00:36:51,998
It used to be fucking astronaut.

572
00:36:52,388 --> 00:36:57,188
And now that is, you know, and I'm
pretty sure it applies across the board.

573
00:36:57,588 --> 00:37:01,758
and so if you're in media and you're lo you're
trying to think like, where's the world change?

574
00:37:01,818 --> 00:37:03,318
Where, where's the world going?

575
00:37:04,608 --> 00:37:07,878
Those changes are profound and we're
seeing them and it's not gonna get.

576
00:37:08,208 --> 00:37:11,688
I think it's not gonna get any
better or, or, or worse depending

577
00:37:11,853 --> 00:37:12,183
Brian: Right.

578
00:37:12,183 --> 00:37:20,343
That's why some of the complaints on this I
take with a grain of salt, the pearl clutching
because it's, it's sort of boxing your own corner.

579
00:37:20,343 --> 00:37:22,143
You're just trying to crowd out competition.

580
00:37:22,173 --> 00:37:24,663
I mean, who wants, nobody wants more competition.

581
00:37:24,663 --> 00:37:25,353
Let's be real.

582
00:37:25,443 --> 00:37:27,483
People don't like change than
they don't want competition.

583
00:37:27,533 --> 00:37:27,823
Alex: Yeah.

584
00:37:27,883 --> 00:37:32,928
But that doesn't mean you can't have an, you
can't be critical of the quality of the content.

585
00:37:33,498 --> 00:37:33,918
Right.

586
00:37:33,978 --> 00:37:39,509
And I think, and I think that people
like Chamath, for example, are, are, are.

587
00:37:40,109 --> 00:37:47,549
You know, the, the, the value per word
from somebody coming from Chamath,
you know, when he steps outside of
his lane, starts dropping pretty fast.

588
00:37:47,669 --> 00:37:49,559
There's some people who can carry over.

589
00:37:49,889 --> 00:38:01,139
You know, you know, you, you, you, you, you
listen to Alan Toos talking about anything
from some, you know, 1813 German industrial
strike to, you know, the Chinese economy.

590
00:38:01,139 --> 00:38:02,609
And he seems to know everything.

591
00:38:02,969 --> 00:38:11,909
but we, we should al we should also
remain very critical about, about the,
the, the type of punditry that we have
because it's becoming more important.

592
00:38:12,209 --> 00:38:18,539
Because I don't think Rick Rubin talking
about the military industrial complex
is something that we need in this world,

593
00:38:18,704 --> 00:38:19,124
Brian: Yeah.

594
00:38:19,261 --> 00:38:20,324
Although I have my doubts.

595
00:38:20,534 --> 00:38:22,004
I have my doubts about Adam Toos.

596
00:38:22,004 --> 00:38:25,552
Like I think he's doing an academic
parlor trick  that's pretty adjacent

597
00:38:25,574 --> 00:38:27,614
to what Chamath Chamath does.

598
00:38:27,824 --> 00:38:38,118
No, I think that there's certain people,
particularly in academia, that if you give
them like eight hours, they can like basically
come out and present as knowing everything

599
00:38:38,118 --> 00:38:38,688
about everything,

600
00:38:39,033 --> 00:38:39,873
Alex: No, but it's, that's fine.

601
00:38:39,873 --> 00:38:41,823
He does his research, but I can't do that.

602
00:38:42,123 --> 00:38:46,143
Like, it's like saying, you know, like,
you know, Hey, can you come, can you, sure.

603
00:38:46,143 --> 00:38:47,823
Can you come back to more and juggle?

604
00:38:48,243 --> 00:38:48,783
I can't.

605
00:38:48,783 --> 00:38:53,313
But Adam two can, Adam two can, he can juggle,
you know, and the next day he'll, he'll,

606
00:38:53,583 --> 00:39:01,233
Brian: Okay, let's talk about I IP Law,
Jack Dorsey, you know, released, we talked
about how you, you wanna release memes
these days and he's, he's pretty good at it.

607
00:39:01,293 --> 00:39:03,513
You know, he's, he's trying
to be a Rick Rubin type.

608
00:39:03,543 --> 00:39:06,753
He's certainly looking more and more
like Rick Rubin as the years go on.

609
00:39:07,173 --> 00:39:09,963
he just posted a, an X is, is
that what we're calling it?

610
00:39:09,963 --> 00:39:13,023
A tweet, an X, whatever it is, delete IP laws.

611
00:39:13,383 --> 00:39:15,033
And Elon agreed with this.

612
00:39:15,113 --> 00:39:21,479
and you know, this is obviously people
get very, I. Upset about IP on both sides.

613
00:39:21,479 --> 00:39:21,899
Right.

614
00:39:21,959 --> 00:39:28,619
And it is pretty clear though, with where we're
going, that IP laws will need to be modernized.

615
00:39:28,649 --> 00:39:40,559
and so the people taking like extremist
positions on one side, to me it's like free
speech content, moderations, like, come
on, like you gotta be grownups because this
stuff is getting very, very, very messy.

616
00:39:40,889 --> 00:39:43,679
I mean, you look at the studio
Ghibli, is it Ghibli or Ghibli?

617
00:39:43,679 --> 00:39:51,359
I don't know, style like art through Chachi
pt. You know, I can understand how the
artists are very upset at the same time.

618
00:39:51,509 --> 00:40:01,440
It was very fun to make a, studio ly image of Lake
Troy on the mission accomplished, banner when GDPR

619
00:40:01,493 --> 00:40:02,183
fell.

620
00:40:03,098 --> 00:40:03,248
Alex: No.

621
00:40:03,248 --> 00:40:04,208
You know what else was fun?

622
00:40:04,208 --> 00:40:05,678
Napster was super fun.

623
00:40:06,128 --> 00:40:07,898
BitTorrent was super fun.

624
00:40:08,318 --> 00:40:17,828
I mean, I, I think it was, it was great,
but at the end of the day, somebody has
to pay artists, and I'm not, and, and I
don't want this to sound like I'm just,
like, IP law I think is perfect today.

625
00:40:18,218 --> 00:40:20,618
but, you always have to look
at people's motivations.

626
00:40:20,678 --> 00:40:29,318
And one thing's for sure is that, because crypto
didn't work out so well, Dorsey is now all
in on ai, because he's very much a legacy guy

627
00:40:29,318 --> 00:40:35,654
and he wants to, he wants to have a legacy
I think you have to look at the motivations
behind, behind the things that they're

628
00:40:35,909 --> 00:40:36,119
Brian: Oh, yeah.

629
00:40:36,119 --> 00:40:36,269
Yeah.

630
00:40:36,269 --> 00:40:37,349
Co Everyone's biased.

631
00:40:37,349 --> 00:40:43,339
Everyone, everyone has their own sort of,
you know, as what, what Nick said, like,
you know, he's got skin in the game now.

632
00:40:43,369 --> 00:40:45,889
Everyone's got skin in the game,
and that's fine, that's fine.

633
00:40:45,937 --> 00:40:46,147
Alex: Yeah.

634
00:40:46,147 --> 00:40:56,917
So, so actually there was a conversation with
James Cameron and he said something interesting
that got me thinking about is that, you know,
in the age of ai, and I'm paraphrasing, what

635
00:40:56,917 --> 00:41:04,477
we're really going to have to do is look
at the output and not the input, which is,
which is the way IP has always worked, right?

636
00:41:04,717 --> 00:41:13,237
Like, when I'm making a a, my movie, I can
use somebody's copyrighted material as a,
as a, as a, as something to inspire me.

637
00:41:13,477 --> 00:41:17,459
But once it goes out into the public, you
know, I need to, to have those rights.

638
00:41:17,829 --> 00:41:23,139
and in the same way with ai, I think
we should be paying more attention
to the outputs than the inputs.

639
00:41:23,379 --> 00:41:28,719
So, so the problem isn't really
what these things ingest, but what
you create with them now, I think.

640
00:41:29,259 --> 00:41:36,669
It becomes complicated because like, does that
mean open AI should be forced to regulate the
stuff because it looks like Ghibli, right?

641
00:41:36,669 --> 00:41:40,209
Or it looks like Disney, or it looks
like a character that is copyrighted.

642
00:41:40,609 --> 00:41:44,264
but that's the type of stuff that's
going to be very, very, very difficult.

643
00:41:44,264 --> 00:41:48,370
But it does mean a a, a that wouldn't
mean such a huge rewrite of copyright law.

644
00:41:48,730 --> 00:41:50,904
but it would, it would, it would mean, something.

645
00:41:50,934 --> 00:41:51,684
I don't know what that means.

646
00:41:52,284 --> 00:41:52,674
Brian: agreed.

647
00:41:52,679 --> 00:41:52,929
Troy.

648
00:41:53,593 --> 00:42:01,448
Troy: Well, first observation is
saying extreme things, you know,
is the modern distribution tactic.

649
00:42:01,448 --> 00:42:11,978
So if Jack can say, get rid of IP law and you
can agree with him, it's hard to, on some level,
you can appreciate, again, these sort of, we're

650
00:42:11,978 --> 00:42:21,368
getting used to the, the kind of proclamations
from, you know, whatever these big, you know, big,
big, big thinkers that build things like that.

651
00:42:21,728 --> 00:42:37,448
We would be that the death of IP would
accelerate innovation and, you know, get
more people, you know, kind of using other
people's ideas to build on them and make
things and propel us forward as a civilization.

652
00:42:38,048 --> 00:42:39,368
So, I, I, I get it.

653
00:42:39,428 --> 00:42:49,068
I think what it also, ma to your point
around, you know, what are, what are the
motivations, I think it massively, creates,
it creates massive value for the aggregators.

654
00:42:49,068 --> 00:42:56,778
And who, if you're an AI company, the
last thing you want is to wade through,
you know, a bunch of pesky IP litigation.

655
00:42:57,258 --> 00:42:58,338
So I think it makes sense.

656
00:42:58,338 --> 00:43:04,188
And, but you have to ask yourself what happens
to, like pharma and entertainment companies
when there's no longer incentives to invest

657
00:43:04,188 --> 00:43:12,408
and make things to really do, you know, kind
of scaled innovation around an idea that
can only be paid back through IP protection.

658
00:43:12,978 --> 00:43:26,528
And then we hear, you know, some fuzzy
principles that, you know, we we're gonna
use blockchain somehow to kind of register
the providence of, of an idea and, and that
will somehow protect, you know, the creator.

659
00:43:26,528 --> 00:43:27,608
I don't really understand

660
00:43:27,728 --> 00:43:33,278
Brian: Yeah, I think the, the issue with all of
these things is ip, like law is a regulation.

661
00:43:33,278 --> 00:43:35,678
It's like anything, the
regulations are just rules it.

662
00:43:35,678 --> 00:43:36,878
These are rules, right?

663
00:43:36,878 --> 00:43:40,448
And rules are always twisted by
incumbents to crowd out competition.

664
00:43:40,478 --> 00:43:41,558
They always are.

665
00:43:41,648 --> 00:43:53,918
That's why regulations, a lot of them end up
being very well-meaning, but they end up doing
the opposite of what they're intended to do
because incumbent players use that to make
sure that they don't have to face new entrants.

666
00:43:53,978 --> 00:43:56,198
And IP law is typical of that.

667
00:43:56,198 --> 00:44:07,508
You see, you see that the kinds of business
process patents over the years and things
like this entire area is rife with, you
know, true like waste, fraud and abuse.

668
00:44:07,728 --> 00:44:13,608
and yeah, you wanna have incentives for people
to make breakthrough biotech, et cetera.

669
00:44:13,918 --> 00:44:14,428
but.

670
00:44:15,028 --> 00:44:24,688
Particularly when it comes to, to media
and ip, it's pretty clear that the genie is
not going back in the bottle with, with ai.

671
00:44:24,828 --> 00:44:26,808
but time will tell as they say.

672
00:44:26,838 --> 00:44:28,458
Did you see Andre Carpathy?

673
00:44:28,458 --> 00:44:30,978
I think he's actually an I AI expert.

674
00:44:31,068 --> 00:44:33,528
I think he, he qualifies as one, right?

675
00:44:33,948 --> 00:44:46,888
he had, he had an interesting post this week
where he pointed out something kind of basic, but
I think it's, it's important, which is that at
this point of AI adoption, like individuals are.

676
00:44:47,188 --> 00:44:49,618
Ahead of the enterprise.

677
00:44:49,798 --> 00:44:53,488
And I think it, originally it was, it was,
oh, this is gonna flood the enterprise.

678
00:44:53,518 --> 00:45:04,738
But it seems like enterprise adoption is lagging
behind what just individuals can do because
they, obviously, individuals can move quickly.

679
00:45:05,008 --> 00:45:09,928
They're not siloed into like groups of co
of, of supposed experts within a company.

680
00:45:10,238 --> 00:45:12,608
they don't have individuals,
don't have legal departments.

681
00:45:12,608 --> 00:45:14,018
At least they don't need permissions.

682
00:45:14,426 --> 00:45:17,156
and, and that's where the momentum is coming from.

683
00:45:17,496 --> 00:45:19,086
I thought this was pretty interesting.

684
00:45:19,086 --> 00:45:21,366
Is this, what is this how
you see things developing ox.

685
00:45:21,953 --> 00:45:22,853
Alex: yeah, I think so.

686
00:45:22,883 --> 00:45:29,563
I mean, I think there's always the, the large
company kind of change tax that needs to happen.

687
00:45:29,563 --> 00:45:35,693
A lot of, I think sentiment around AI is generally
negative right from every study that we're seeing.

688
00:45:36,053 --> 00:45:41,363
And it's been shown that people are
reluctant to apply to their work.

689
00:45:41,903 --> 00:45:51,014
You know, a couple of weeks ago we
saw to, Toby from, Shopify, try to, to
really engage the company by saying that
performance reviews would be based on AI.

690
00:45:51,014 --> 00:45:56,894
Adoption seems to be working pretty
well at Shopify, but I know it's
not working well at other companies.

691
00:45:56,894 --> 00:46:00,584
I know it's creating chaos at other
companies where people are like,
I don't know what to use this.

692
00:46:00,584 --> 00:46:01,784
I'm being told to use this.

693
00:46:02,144 --> 00:46:03,614
It doesn't really work for me.

694
00:46:03,984 --> 00:46:20,034
And also I think part of the thing is that the
tools are, the tools require a fair amount of
flexibility and, and the qualities of like being
able to try shit out, which actually don't, apply
really well to cooperative work at scale, right?

695
00:46:20,034 --> 00:46:28,074
So when you're like vibe coding something,
your vibe code is not something that you can
just merge into like the bigger code base.

696
00:46:28,074 --> 00:46:29,484
And it's gonna make a lot of sense.

697
00:46:29,484 --> 00:46:33,054
You know, a lot of this, this stuff is
messier sloppy, it's less organized.

698
00:46:33,364 --> 00:46:34,714
it's harder to plan.

699
00:46:35,034 --> 00:46:46,524
so there's a lot of structural reasons why just
being a solo developer right now, you can probably
like do 80% more than you could before because
now you can do stuff that a designer could do.

700
00:46:46,524 --> 00:46:48,294
You could do stuff that an engineer could do.

701
00:46:48,294 --> 00:46:54,934
You could put all these things together and
working by yourself on your own code base
is, is, You know, relatively straightforward.

702
00:46:55,084 --> 00:46:57,514
If you work in a group, it's actually much harder.

703
00:46:57,604 --> 00:47:01,744
Just like the, the, the tools themselves
make all of this kind of harder.

704
00:47:02,074 --> 00:47:09,434
yeah, so I think that you are definitely going
to see like two or three person companies doing
things that, are going to be pretty substantial.

705
00:47:09,528 --> 00:47:12,438
yeah, small, small teams right
now have a huge advantage.

706
00:47:12,438 --> 00:47:17,328
I think it's gonna be hard to change large
companies to adopt this stuff like so hard.

707
00:47:17,928 --> 00:47:29,778
Brian: Yeah, but this is just another,
this is another example of how being very
lean and nimble, as lean as possible is
such, is such a competitive advantage.

708
00:47:30,028 --> 00:47:38,903
and, and there's just so many different
areas where the, the bigger you are, the more
challenging it can be these days it seems.

709
00:47:39,503 --> 00:47:40,913
Alex: It's always been like that though, right?

710
00:47:41,023 --> 00:47:50,653
Troy: no, but, but I, I think what's
disruptive about, Alex, you make a great
point about merging your vibe code into the
code base of a company, and I think that
that's written across every department.

711
00:47:50,653 --> 00:48:02,233
When you think about how legal response
to the request to enable an AI feature,
who's, you know, output is unpredictable,
you know, big company litigious scenario.

712
00:48:02,233 --> 00:48:04,573
Like it's, it's, it's a fuzzy.

713
00:48:05,198 --> 00:48:10,448
It's a technology that's the opposite of, you
know, the history of most technology we use.

714
00:48:10,448 --> 00:48:13,688
It's not declarative, the results
are unpredictable and fuzzy.

715
00:48:13,988 --> 00:48:26,928
But I think what it does do, and the point that
that he made in, in, in, in that expost was I
think in some ways it starts to recon, it creates
new, a a a really important new input into what

716
00:48:26,928 --> 00:48:42,168
modern industrial structure looks like, where you
have far more companies that are built around a
small empowered group of people that are using
tools at the individual level in a new way.

717
00:48:42,348 --> 00:48:46,128
So I watch, you know, the example we
brought up last week is how Brian works.

718
00:48:46,128 --> 00:48:52,618
And, you know, I've seen, you know, a new
generation come into media companies and
go, why are there so many people here?

719
00:48:52,618 --> 00:48:55,018
Like we, we, we don't need that many people.

720
00:48:55,358 --> 00:48:59,258
and, and I think we're seeing that in software
and we're seeing it all over the place.

721
00:48:59,258 --> 00:49:02,318
So it's, it's, it's, it's probably great.

722
00:49:02,588 --> 00:49:08,258
Actually, it probably means you're gonna get,
it's kind of like the creator economy, you know?

723
00:49:08,258 --> 00:49:14,318
And, and you're gonna get, you know, lots
of innovation in, in, in, in the economy.

724
00:49:14,468 --> 00:49:24,078
And I think though, what you, what you
can't do at kind of micro microscale, but
at least not yet, is the kind of, you know,

725
00:49:24,198 --> 00:49:34,248
large scale Chinese type manufacturing that
requires lots of people, lots of investment,
incredibly sophisticated technology at scale.

726
00:49:34,728 --> 00:49:47,534
you know, the, that that kind of, you know,
those kind of companies, you know, really
benefit from, you know, industrial policy, huge
amounts of investment and, and lots of people.

727
00:49:48,065 --> 00:49:55,940
Brian: It seems like we're gonna have
like armies of like one to like 10 person
like companies and like a bunch of foxcon,

728
00:49:56,330 --> 00:49:56,600
Troy: Yeah.

729
00:49:56,810 --> 00:49:57,140
Yeah.

730
00:49:57,470 --> 00:50:01,610
I was fascinated this idea of, do
you know this idea of dark factories?

731
00:50:02,116 --> 00:50:02,536
Brian: No.

732
00:50:03,136 --> 00:50:07,036
Troy: It's a, it's a concept
that you see in China and places.

733
00:50:07,036 --> 00:50:11,746
It'd be really interesting to see where there's
no lights on inside because you don't need lights.

734
00:50:11,776 --> 00:50:13,456
'cause it's just robots working.

735
00:50:14,045 --> 00:50:15,845
Robots don't, don't need lights,

736
00:50:15,980 --> 00:50:16,610
Brian: dystopia.

737
00:50:16,865 --> 00:50:18,005
Troy: dark factories.

738
00:50:18,427 --> 00:50:18,840
Brian: Is that what

739
00:50:18,840 --> 00:50:19,320
we're gonna get?

740
00:50:19,930 --> 00:50:28,902
Alex: I thought you were going to talk about
Ghost Kitchens, but Yeah, I think, I think
having, a lot of the infrastructure now for
software kind of works like the Foxconn industrial

741
00:50:29,172 --> 00:50:40,972
system where, you know, when you're making a
piece of software, you are outsourcing a lot of
the big stuff, a lot of the big stuff like the
AWS, the server hosting, the AI itself, right?

742
00:50:41,002 --> 00:50:42,112
All, all of that stuff.

743
00:50:42,382 --> 00:50:51,472
You, the, the payment processing, all of
these things that actually require big teams
and a lot of, you know, legal experts and
infrastructure and services, stuff like that.

744
00:50:51,682 --> 00:50:53,902
All that stuff you can plug into, right?

745
00:50:54,172 --> 00:50:56,842
So, so the software environment
is already made for that.

746
00:50:56,842 --> 00:51:00,112
So a, a small team can build
something at real scale now.

747
00:51:00,152 --> 00:51:00,442
Troy: Yeah.

748
00:51:00,672 --> 00:51:06,247
Meanwhile, Brian, it was interesting that Elon
Musk is trying to create a baby factory, a

749
00:51:06,427 --> 00:51:08,437
Brian: Yeah, a legion, his own legion.

750
00:51:08,437 --> 00:51:11,437
Alex has his legion, and Elon is going a

751
00:51:11,482 --> 00:51:15,022
Alex: Uh, we should stay in LA and apparently
you, you're not allowed to talk about Elon.

752
00:51:15,277 --> 00:51:17,347
Brian: by making, his own legion to me.

753
00:51:17,347 --> 00:51:17,947
What was nowhere?

754
00:51:17,947 --> 00:51:20,767
This was a Wall Street Journal,
I guess it was an expose.

755
00:51:21,337 --> 00:51:23,527
they've had a few good ones on the Elon beat.

756
00:51:23,527 --> 00:51:32,395
They were, they were the ones who got the,
apparent, liaison that he had with, former vice
presidential candidate and Serge Brin's ex-wife.

757
00:51:32,795 --> 00:51:34,715
this is a strange timeline we're living on.

758
00:51:35,145 --> 00:51:35,415
but the

759
00:51:35,460 --> 00:51:35,692
Alex: I think

760
00:51:35,790 --> 00:51:36,360
he's great.

761
00:51:36,360 --> 00:51:37,140
I just wanna put

762
00:51:37,250 --> 00:51:38,150
Troy: But don't Hold on, Alex.

763
00:51:38,330 --> 00:51:39,150
Let him make the point.

764
00:51:39,330 --> 00:51:39,550
Let.

765
00:51:39,690 --> 00:51:43,350
Brian: But the Wall Street
Journal has, it's become friskier.

766
00:51:43,350 --> 00:51:47,610
I think we've mentioned it a few times
here, but this is a great example.

767
00:51:47,610 --> 00:51:52,080
I don't think there was anything necessarily
quote unquote wrong with the Wall Street Journal.

768
00:51:52,080 --> 00:51:53,190
It was just stodgy.

769
00:51:53,190 --> 00:51:57,570
It's the Wall Street Journal
and they brought in Emma Tucker.

770
00:51:57,750 --> 00:52:07,290
I guess it's been like a year and a half
or so now, and I've noticed it just,
I think it's, it's a much better and
livelier read I, that was a great story.

771
00:52:07,290 --> 00:52:16,950
This is the most under, this is the most
over covered, overexposed individual in the
history of humanity, probably at this point.

772
00:52:17,460 --> 00:52:25,290
And they came out with a new original
and gripping story about him.

773
00:52:25,290 --> 00:52:26,790
So kudos to the Wall

774
00:52:26,985 --> 00:52:27,311
Troy: kudos.

775
00:52:27,585 --> 00:52:33,225
Just, I would say cancel the New York
Times and replace it with Financial
Times and Wall Street Journal.

776
00:52:33,225 --> 00:52:33,735
It would be fine.

777
00:52:34,305 --> 00:52:34,935
Alex: Where do you get

778
00:52:34,950 --> 00:52:35,160
Brian: It's,

779
00:52:35,790 --> 00:52:36,060
yeah,

780
00:52:36,105 --> 00:52:36,592
Troy: you gotta

781
00:52:36,855 --> 00:52:38,805
just get a games membership for connection.

782
00:52:39,560 --> 00:52:39,920
Alex: All right.

783
00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:40,760
Well, there you have it.

784
00:52:40,760 --> 00:52:41,450
That's the, That's

785
00:52:41,450 --> 00:52:42,140
the media diet.

786
00:52:42,290 --> 00:52:43,220
That's your media diet.

787
00:52:43,875 --> 00:52:44,165
Troy: Yeah.

788
00:52:44,420 --> 00:52:46,760
Brian: that one kind of like went
over like a fart in an elevator?

789
00:52:46,760 --> 00:52:48,830
I thought it was gonna be a
little bit more better, but,

790
00:52:49,315 --> 00:52:50,980
Troy: Should we have, anonymous banker join?

791
00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:51,730
Brian: yeah.

792
00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:54,575
'cause I gotta talk with
Janice Min in like 20 minutes

793
00:52:55,025 --> 00:52:55,295
Alex: And I've

794
00:52:55,295 --> 00:52:56,315
got a hard stop now,

795
00:52:56,315 --> 00:52:57,035
Brian: celebrity.

796
00:52:57,635 --> 00:52:59,675
Troy: Okay, so let's, let's swap out Alex.

797
00:52:59,675 --> 00:53:00,965
That's, that's hard.

798
00:53:01,085 --> 00:53:01,745
What do you call it?

799
00:53:01,895 --> 00:53:02,555
hot swap.

800
00:53:02,731 --> 00:53:03,091
Alex: say hi.

801
00:53:03,091 --> 00:53:05,491
To say hi to anonymous banker for me.

802
00:53:05,851 --> 00:53:06,661
Brian: Okay, great.

803
00:53:06,721 --> 00:53:08,581
We got ab on ab.

804
00:53:08,611 --> 00:53:10,681
Thank you for, for joining us.

805
00:53:10,892 --> 00:53:18,752
I wanted to talk about golf media because
you're a banker, so you must know golf,
and I think it's a very vibrant area.

806
00:53:18,782 --> 00:53:34,112
There's a, I don't golf, so I don't, I'm not
totally in on it, but I, I keep getting notes
about the, the different, like how interesting
like YouTube centric golf media is, and we're
seeing a lot of like activities in this area.

807
00:53:34,202 --> 00:53:36,182
What, what's interesting to me about golf

808
00:53:36,782 --> 00:53:37,352
AB: I think so.

809
00:53:37,352 --> 00:53:38,102
When people look at

810
00:53:38,102 --> 00:53:38,642
sports.

811
00:53:39,760 --> 00:53:41,260
Group, all of them together.

812
00:53:41,260 --> 00:53:43,780
But golf is unique.

813
00:53:44,080 --> 00:53:47,210
It's, it's similar to like a Formula One, in that

814
00:53:47,360 --> 00:53:50,990
there's effectively like one, one
and a half governing bodies, right?

815
00:53:50,990 --> 00:53:53,210
You have the PGA and Liv.

816
00:53:53,630 --> 00:53:54,620
so it's a streamlined.

817
00:53:55,580 --> 00:54:05,540
Ownership of the tournament component and then
the teams, or in the, in the situation of golf,
the players are all independent contractors,
so you have a lot more flexibility when it

818
00:54:05,540 --> 00:54:05,810
comes

819
00:54:05,810 --> 00:54:07,880
to the participatory nature of

820
00:54:08,330 --> 00:54:09,860
the athletes in the content.

821
00:54:10,170 --> 00:54:11,220
whereas in, in other

822
00:54:11,220 --> 00:54:16,980
sports, like N-B-A-M-L-B, things like
that, there's a, a, a lot more rules
around how the athletes can participate.

823
00:54:17,430 --> 00:54:22,770
and the other thing that's really interesting
about golf, I was, I was looking up some of
these numbers, the amount of people that play.

824
00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:25,740
Both on and off course, it's like 45 million

825
00:54:25,740 --> 00:54:27,120
people a year.

826
00:54:27,360 --> 00:54:36,390
So there's like 25 million people that
are going to the actual golf courses and
then another large chunk that are going
to like top golf and things like that.

827
00:54:36,390 --> 00:54:39,960
So between the media side where
people are watching the sports

828
00:54:40,260 --> 00:54:41,160
and then playing

829
00:54:41,160 --> 00:54:43,610
them, buying all the equipment, it's a big

830
00:54:43,610 --> 00:54:44,090
industry.

831
00:54:44,302 --> 00:54:47,962
Brian: Who, so I saw like good,
good golf, raised 40 million.

832
00:54:48,562 --> 00:54:55,302
and then full swing, which is from,
Chad Mum, who encouraged me actually
is the reason I got a pizza steal.

833
00:54:55,302 --> 00:54:59,932
I did, a podcast with him, over the pandemic
and he convinced me to get a, pizza steal.

834
00:55:00,262 --> 00:55:04,132
but he started this with X,
I think x the, former puck.

835
00:55:04,192 --> 00:55:07,072
CEO is, is in this too called full

836
00:55:07,072 --> 00:55:07,402
swing.

837
00:55:07,402 --> 00:55:08,542
They raised 20 million.

838
00:55:08,832 --> 00:55:10,782
who are the other players in this?

839
00:55:10,782 --> 00:55:12,162
'cause there's, there's a lot of them.

840
00:55:12,462 --> 00:55:13,392
We talked about that one

841
00:55:13,450 --> 00:55:15,728
AB: There's a, yeah, there's
a bunch of smaller YouTube

842
00:55:15,728 --> 00:55:16,448
channels I think.

843
00:55:16,778 --> 00:55:17,708
Good, good golf.

844
00:55:18,308 --> 00:55:30,788
'
This is one of these, we've talked about this
before, where some of these businesses have been
in market trying to find capital or some m and a
for over a year, and the markets come around to
appreciating what can be done on the digital side.

845
00:55:30,998 --> 00:55:34,058
But what's interesting about both
of these businesses is they have.

846
00:55:34,538 --> 00:55:42,068
Legitimate partnerships with like
the actual league in the sense of,
pro shop, the full swing, business.

847
00:55:42,068 --> 00:55:51,638
It's like basically they're pulling out
from PGA, the production apparatus and then
looking to stand up the digital side and
then commerce, and then good, good Golf has

848
00:55:51,638 --> 00:55:58,808
a partnership with one of the large networks,
so they're, yes, they're focused on YouTube
and going after this younger demographic.

849
00:55:59,085 --> 00:56:03,203
But they also have ties into
the incumbents in the space.

850
00:56:03,203 --> 00:56:05,903
So they're, I think looking,
yeah, it's not just digital.

851
00:56:05,903 --> 00:56:10,853
They have an eye towards, and that's like one of
the things that has to happen to get people to

852
00:56:10,853 --> 00:56:14,603
watch golf on TV is to push the audience from

853
00:56:14,603 --> 00:56:16,553
digital back to the traditional

854
00:56:16,741 --> 00:56:17,041
media

855
00:56:17,223 --> 00:56:22,846
Troy: The, the commerce angle on,
it's interesting too because there's
this you know, not only is the sport

856
00:56:22,846 --> 00:56:24,406
something you can watch, by the

857
00:56:24,406 --> 00:56:32,266
way, legendary masters last weekend,
you know, record numbers, great
story for the people of Ireland.

858
00:56:32,326 --> 00:56:34,456
You know, just incredible entertainment.

859
00:56:34,976 --> 00:56:39,986
with Rory McElroy winning that, you know,
coming from, you know, a really uneven game to

860
00:56:39,986 --> 00:56:40,166
win.

861
00:56:40,166 --> 00:56:43,316
It was great entertainment,
but it's, it really is a

862
00:56:43,316 --> 00:56:59,846
kind of unique lifestyle integration where, you
know, you watch, you play, you can live in the
clothing, and as a result we see commerce brands
emerging around these media brands in ways that
maybe will work better than it has elsewhere.

863
00:57:00,446 --> 00:57:00,656
Right.

864
00:57:00,656 --> 00:57:01,166
They're full.

865
00:57:01,166 --> 00:57:04,286
They're full on like life, lifestyle kind of

866
00:57:04,286 --> 00:57:05,696
integration with the sport.

867
00:57:06,296 --> 00:57:11,096
Brian: I mean, they, and they're
perfect for this content to commerce
thing that has a, a rocky history.

868
00:57:11,096 --> 00:57:15,866
But, I'm, remember I got, I got a note, from, from
one of our listeners about this a few months ago.

869
00:57:15,866 --> 00:57:21,836
I had mentioned it, like he talked about
the YouTubers, like Grant aught, and
he's like selling clubs and whatnot.

870
00:57:21,836 --> 00:57:23,906
He's got, he's got licensing deals.

871
00:57:23,936 --> 00:57:23,996
I.

872
00:57:24,581 --> 00:57:26,201
I guess Bryson Busta, Jack.

873
00:57:26,201 --> 00:57:27,311
I don't know who these people are.

874
00:57:27,721 --> 00:57:28,711
taco golf.

875
00:57:28,801 --> 00:57:29,791
Do you know taco golf?

876
00:57:30,107 --> 00:57:35,057
AB: No, but I mean the, good thing there's
ver, if you compare this to like A UFC, right?

877
00:57:35,057 --> 00:57:38,657
That's also big among this 18
to 30 5-year-old demographic.

878
00:57:39,137 --> 00:57:40,967
the only way that that.

879
00:57:41,567 --> 00:57:45,077
Sport is getting monetized is through
like pay-per-view buys, right.

880
00:57:45,077 --> 00:57:50,987
The athletes, even though if you follow
the UFC, there's notable names, no end.

881
00:57:51,167 --> 00:57:58,037
There's, there's various few endemic brands
in the the fighting game and then all those
athletes Have a hard time getting sports deals.

882
00:57:58,077 --> 00:58:06,357
Getting, sponsorship deals elsewhere, but,
but golf is one of these things, like,
Troy mentioned, like you're gonna buy
a golf shirt, you're buying golf clubs.

883
00:58:06,357 --> 00:58:10,227
There's all these things that you're
buying around participating in the sport,
and people are actually playing golf.

884
00:58:10,227 --> 00:58:14,727
You're not gonna go, maybe you join a UFC gym, but
otherwise you're not gonna really play this sport.

885
00:58:14,937 --> 00:58:19,107
And then more broadly speaking, brands
love to be tied to the athletes, right?

886
00:58:19,317 --> 00:58:20,457
Car OEMs.

887
00:58:20,457 --> 00:58:22,797
Like it's, it's, it's Like tennis in that it's,

888
00:58:22,797 --> 00:58:24,057
a really brand safe space.

889
00:58:24,350 --> 00:58:25,370
Brian: one other thing.

890
00:58:25,430 --> 00:58:27,230
This is not golf related.

891
00:58:27,290 --> 00:58:32,810
and that's, you know, OpenAI had raised I think
40 billion a couple weeks ago at this point.

892
00:58:32,810 --> 00:58:42,440
It's, it's interesting because, you know, an
AI company raising 40 billion is, is like,
gets a little bit of attention for a couple
days and then people just move on from it.

893
00:58:42,620 --> 00:58:50,490
But they have a lot of money obviously,
and, If they're now talking about building a
social network, which gives me some amount of

894
00:58:50,490 --> 00:58:54,245
pause, but it is pretty clear
that to, at least to me, I,

895
00:58:54,250 --> 00:58:58,720
I think of them like, it seems like they're
moving Into being like a real product company.

896
00:58:58,930 --> 00:59:03,550
what, what is your analysis about,
about what they're, what direction
they'll end up going as a company?

897
00:59:04,150 --> 00:59:12,659
AB: I, I mean the, the new model just
came out, the oh three, yesterday and
it's, it's amazing like the progression
of the tech from just an output.

898
00:59:12,689 --> 00:59:13,469
Have you guys tried it?

899
00:59:13,471 --> 00:59:13,951
Troy: it's cool.

900
00:59:14,549 --> 00:59:14,879
AB: Yeah.

901
00:59:14,954 --> 00:59:16,328
I mean, I feel like the last

902
00:59:16,328 --> 00:59:18,968
one was like, you know, people
would term it the intern.

903
00:59:18,968 --> 00:59:19,388
This one

904
00:59:19,388 --> 00:59:19,688
feels

905
00:59:19,750 --> 00:59:31,240
Troy: What's weird is the sort of parasocial
relationship you have with a piece of technology
because the, the, its beauty is in the
nuance of how it responds to things, right?

906
00:59:31,240 --> 00:59:35,500
It, it's, it's in, you know, the language and
what it sounds like and how it assembles it.

907
00:59:35,500 --> 00:59:45,427
And it's so, it's really a, uh, I
find I gravitate to the OpenAI product
just because I like the, the, the way
they, they, they make the output feel.

908
00:59:45,982 --> 00:59:49,312
Brian: Well, I trust that it remembers things
before they even came out with this memory thing.

909
00:59:49,312 --> 00:59:51,052
I'm like, they have all my data.

910
00:59:51,412 --> 00:59:55,552
I've uploaded all my key data
and I'm always gonna go to it.

911
00:59:55,582 --> 00:59:57,292
I'll go to Grok for a few things.

912
00:59:57,292 --> 00:59:57,862
Claude.

913
00:59:58,072 --> 00:59:59,842
No, I've done, I'm done with Claude.

914
01:00:00,112 --> 01:00:01,552
I'm just going all in on chat.

915
01:00:01,807 --> 01:00:09,455
Troy: well, that's one of the reasons that
the social networking thing is interesting
because gr is good when, particularly
when you wanna dig something outta x. And

916
01:00:09,485 --> 01:00:13,445
one of the reasons you might want your own
social network is to kind of create your

917
01:00:13,445 --> 01:00:15,575
na, your own native data repository.

918
01:00:16,043 --> 01:00:20,783
AB: bring up the new model because I
think that open AI will continue to get.

919
01:00:21,098 --> 01:00:26,828
Into more areas where it, it's, it's sort
of unintentional, but it just happens
because of the power of the model.

920
01:00:27,166 --> 01:00:36,436
example, we're testing right now a lot of the
investment banking, AI companies, platforms,
and to justify the additional cost per seat.

921
01:00:36,436 --> 01:00:42,496
I've been just sort of testing between
these more specialized platforms,
which say, we can go get better data.

922
01:00:42,646 --> 01:00:45,676
We know what you're doing
versus what a open AI can do.

923
01:00:46,006 --> 01:00:48,826
And in a lot of cases, open
AI is actually providing a

924
01:00:48,826 --> 01:00:49,006
better

925
01:00:49,053 --> 01:00:56,872
Troy: You know what, on that ab you, you get a
sense of how truly disruptive it is when you see
it applying horizontally like that better than

926
01:00:56,872 --> 01:01:04,792
a, vertical company could do it, The other I,
and I noticed this in a, simple way, yesterday,
I used to scan bottles of wine with vineo.

927
01:01:06,202 --> 01:01:08,842
I wanna know their providence
and where to buy 'em or

928
01:01:08,842 --> 01:01:10,402
how expensive they were, that kind of stuff.

929
01:01:10,732 --> 01:01:15,502
Yesterday I scanned it with OpenAI
with at bt and it was a better result.

930
01:01:16,042 --> 01:01:16,462
AB: hundred percent.

931
01:01:16,462 --> 01:01:18,742
And so people use these analogies, like when

932
01:01:18,742 --> 01:01:20,812
Google came out, it didn't try to get into every

933
01:01:20,812 --> 01:01:23,997
business line that it impacted
because they had such a large.

934
01:01:24,802 --> 01:01:26,572
Opportunity to go after advertising,

935
01:01:26,962 --> 01:01:30,292
but in order for Google to,
to move into any category, it.

936
01:01:30,292 --> 01:01:32,782
was an intentional thing where
they had to put people against it.

937
01:01:33,052 --> 01:01:34,402
I think what's completely different

938
01:01:34,402 --> 01:01:43,942
here, and I, I think what's gonna catch a
lot of people off guard is the improvements
in these models will just make in, in the
example I gave these specialized finance

939
01:01:43,942 --> 01:01:46,342
products, like not that useful.

940
01:01:46,347 --> 01:01:48,832
It's everyone's just gonna be
going to open ai, which is a

941
01:01:49,104 --> 01:01:49,324
Troy: and

942
01:01:49,424 --> 01:01:58,389
and you imagine also collaborative features
where, let's say I use projects a lot
now where I put a bunch of documents
into a folder and essentially used it.

943
01:01:58,389 --> 01:01:59,889
I did it with the newsletter this week.

944
01:01:59,889 --> 01:02:01,419
I put a. bunch of transcripts in there.

945
01:02:01,779 --> 01:02:02,949
But imagine that.

946
01:02:03,249 --> 01:02:05,619
We had a project folder for this podcast.

947
01:02:05,769 --> 01:02:08,559
Imagine that You have a project
folder for your neighborhood.

948
01:02:08,829 --> 01:02:22,299
Imagine that you have it for, you, know, a
national, you know, like any kind of project
that requires people to put information in
and share in a kind of common set of data.

949
01:02:22,449 --> 01:02:22,809
You can

950
01:02:22,809 --> 01:02:29,019
see social dimensions to that as a
product, right, where you can share
across lots and lots of people.

951
01:02:29,469 --> 01:02:33,369
AB: so I would view, I would view that the
social thing to me is like a distraction.

952
01:02:33,369 --> 01:02:34,419
I think that's Sam,

953
01:02:34,419 --> 01:02:35,979
just Messing with Elon.

954
01:02:36,309 --> 01:02:38,439
I think the, the more interesting news was them

955
01:02:38,439 --> 01:02:41,049
looking at buying Windsurf, uh, which is like the

956
01:02:41,049 --> 01:02:42,489
coating,  um,

957
01:02:42,551 --> 01:02:43,736
Brian: billion apparently.

958
01:02:43,766 --> 01:02:48,016
And, but this is also, this was, I mean,
isn't this one of those, like wrappers?

959
01:02:48,016 --> 01:02:49,351
I mean, at first it was saying don't bill,

960
01:02:49,636 --> 01:02:55,176
like wrappers with a w that don't build
like, you know, rappers, but like,
clearly there's value in some of these.

961
01:02:55,776 --> 01:02:57,606
AB: Yeah, and we, I mean, we
don't know all the details.

962
01:02:57,606 --> 01:02:58,326
There might be

963
01:02:58,701 --> 01:03:02,646
a, a talented team there where
Sam effectively has unlimited

964
01:03:02,646 --> 01:03:05,496
money to spend now and he's going after 20 really

965
01:03:05,496 --> 01:03:05,646
good

966
01:03:05,858 --> 01:03:06,638
Brian: Oh my God.

967
01:03:06,668 --> 01:03:07,538
$3 billion.

968
01:03:07,538 --> 01:03:08,948
Acquihires We live in.

969
01:03:09,008 --> 01:03:09,848
We live in amazing

970
01:03:10,086 --> 01:03:10,476
AB: Yeah.

971
01:03:10,592 --> 01:03:12,872
Well, think about, I mean,
think about the original opening

972
01:03:12,872 --> 01:03:13,682
idea with Microsoft.

973
01:03:13,682 --> 01:03:15,392
It was like 10, $10 billion.

974
01:03:15,462 --> 01:03:21,132
and so I, I think that's what coding is
probably one of the first things that

975
01:03:21,192 --> 01:03:24,102
is, is having, is getting the biggest impact

976
01:03:24,102 --> 01:03:28,452
with these, models because coders
are really good at prompting.

977
01:03:28,452 --> 01:03:34,252
and so it's like this positive, and
so that's probably just a land grab
and to starve off other competitors

978
01:03:34,252 --> 01:03:34,522
from

979
01:03:34,672 --> 01:03:35,812
from leaning into that space.

980
01:03:35,962 --> 01:03:36,202
But I

981
01:03:36,361 --> 01:03:38,251
I just think that the evolution of this

982
01:03:38,251 --> 01:03:40,831
tech is going to usurp a lot of

983
01:03:40,831 --> 01:03:42,211
wrapper business models

984
01:03:42,211 --> 01:03:51,481
that have raised hundreds of millions of dollars,
and they have this like, unique market in a
specific, vertical where the power of these models

985
01:03:51,481 --> 01:03:54,481
just kind of comes over the top and can do a

986
01:03:54,481 --> 01:03:55,081
better job.

987
01:03:55,125 --> 01:03:56,175
Brian: Well, I wouldn't this go

988
01:03:56,175 --> 01:04:04,005
back to our earlier conversation, like
if you're like Harvey in the legal
community now, I'm getting definitely
out outside of any area of expertise.

989
01:04:04,375 --> 01:04:07,345
you're gonna need to comply with
literally so many different things.

990
01:04:07,345 --> 01:04:13,045
So like chat BT can, you know, if I'm doing like
some kind of like basic agreement or something?

991
01:04:13,045 --> 01:04:16,495
Yeah, I might, I might, I might
go to like chat B-T-E-S-Q,

992
01:04:16,795 --> 01:04:20,515
but you're gonna need something a little
bit more specialized in these fields, right.

993
01:04:20,515 --> 01:04:21,895
With all the regulations and,

994
01:04:22,454 --> 01:04:23,684
AB: That's, I mean, that's what I thought.

995
01:04:23,684 --> 01:04:23,894
Right?

996
01:04:23,894 --> 01:04:27,134
And so on the finance platform side,
I thought they would do a better job.

997
01:04:27,134 --> 01:04:36,704
They have access to a few data sources
that OpenAI hasn't tapped into yet, but
just the overall power of the, of, of the
technology is, is getting better results.

998
01:04:37,056 --> 01:04:39,396
maybe it, maybe it's more
on the consumer side first,

999
01:04:39,396 --> 01:04:42,726
and then they start to go
into Harvey, like scenarios

1000
01:04:42,728 --> 01:04:45,478
Brian: Troy, any final thoughts before, I regal

1001
01:04:45,478 --> 01:04:48,028
everyone with my good product.

1002
01:04:48,545 --> 01:04:51,155
Troy: No, other than you can hear me right guys.

1003
01:04:51,205 --> 01:04:54,115
this has been a week of
wonderful technology snafus.

1004
01:04:54,442 --> 01:05:02,092
One thing I find interesting about the
product evolution at Open API is the need that
will emerge to manage different identities.

1005
01:05:02,632 --> 01:05:06,262
You don't have the same conversation
in all aspects of your life.

1006
01:05:06,262 --> 01:05:10,222
You might have a private one, you might have a
public one, you might have a professional one.

1007
01:05:10,732 --> 01:05:15,052
And, and I think there's gonna be a lot of
thought put towards, you know, how you show

1008
01:05:15,232 --> 01:05:25,732
Brian: Well, it's gonna understand that I, I don't
like, I have different projects for different,
like things that I want to, I want it to focus
on, but to me that's, that'll end up going away.

1009
01:05:26,002 --> 01:05:28,132
Troy: Well, it's almost like
people using different Twitter

1010
01:05:28,132 --> 01:05:28,792
accounts, right?

1011
01:05:29,362 --> 01:05:30,022
For different things.

1012
01:05:30,532 --> 01:05:30,862
Brian: True.

1013
01:05:31,407 --> 01:05:31,690
Troy: anyway.

1014
01:05:31,710 --> 01:05:33,715
No, I'm handing a good product over to you.

1015
01:05:33,745 --> 01:05:35,065
'cause I know you're passionate about

1016
01:05:35,065 --> 01:05:35,575
turtles.

1017
01:05:37,908 --> 01:05:38,132
Brian: All right.

1018
01:05:38,132 --> 01:05:39,366
This is experimental.

1019
01:05:39,366 --> 01:05:40,656
'cause I have a hard stop.

1020
01:05:40,716 --> 01:05:46,596
I've been very into sea turtles lately,
because it is sea turtle season in, Miami.

1021
01:05:46,626 --> 01:05:48,846
There's a lot of sea turtle
nesting that goes on here.

1022
01:05:49,056 --> 01:05:56,826
And there's all these like warning signs
up that you need to keep your lights low if
you, if you're, if, if you have a place on
the beach, I don't, I'm across the street.

1023
01:05:56,826 --> 01:05:58,816
But like, I didn't really quite understand it.

1024
01:05:58,816 --> 01:06:01,216
I did, I went to chat BT and
I learned a lot about it.

1025
01:06:01,516 --> 01:06:09,265
It turns out that sea turtles are born with
a single use tool called a Carle that is
almost like one of those like IKEA tools.

1026
01:06:09,265 --> 01:06:11,965
It's like you use it and then it's useless.

1027
01:06:12,325 --> 01:06:23,155
And so they use that to bust out of the egg
and then they actually ha, they, they, they
wait a day and they feed off of the like sack.

1028
01:06:23,515 --> 01:06:33,565
Juice and whatnot and get their strength up
to make the dash relatively speaking to the,
the ocean where they then go off for decades.

1029
01:06:33,625 --> 01:06:36,925
They can float like hundreds or
even over a thousand miles away.

1030
01:06:37,255 --> 01:06:50,195
And what's amazing is the female turtles make
their way back using something called magnetic
imaging of the earth's magnetic field in
order to find the exact location where they
were born and they return to then, lay eggs.

1031
01:06:50,445 --> 01:06:53,925
to repeat the cycle decades
later, can be 30 plus years later.

1032
01:06:54,525 --> 01:06:55,275
Pretty remarkable.

1033
01:06:55,275 --> 01:06:56,385
All because of the kunkle.

1034
01:06:56,985 --> 01:06:57,275
Troy: Nice.

1035
01:06:57,345 --> 01:06:58,095
Brian: where we take that.

1036
01:06:59,455 --> 01:06:59,875
Troy: No way.

1037
01:07:01,260 --> 01:07:01,740
Perfect.

1038
01:07:01,755 --> 01:07:03,435
Brian: We'll go back to your woofers next week.

1039
01:07:04,275 --> 01:07:04,575
Troy: All right.

1040
01:07:04,873 --> 01:07:07,123
AB: I have a good, I have a good,
can I do my, a good product?

1041
01:07:07,153 --> 01:07:08,863
I know I'm not a, a regular or I'm not

1042
01:07:08,863 --> 01:07:09,433
on, on the

1043
01:07:09,433 --> 01:07:13,938
podcast, but, I've been using This AI
agent called Block it for scheduling.

1044
01:07:14,148 --> 01:07:18,738
I think I showed it to you guys and
what's interesting is like it can
really pick up on the context and

1045
01:07:18,738 --> 01:07:19,548
conversation.

1046
01:07:19,548 --> 01:07:23,898
So people have tried these different scheduling
bots before in, the past, and they're

1047
01:07:23,898 --> 01:07:25,158
always pretty shitty.

1048
01:07:25,158 --> 01:07:33,588
But this one is better than like an assistant
because you, you I can talk to it and tell it
what to do, and then you, can have different.

1049
01:07:33,963 --> 01:07:37,653
Sort of code words if you don't actually wanna
schedule a meeting with somebody where It

1050
01:07:37,653 --> 01:07:39,333
picks up on that and it will kind of

1051
01:07:39,333 --> 01:07:43,983
just pl like play around with that person to
kind of push off ever doing a real meeting.

1052
01:07:44,463 --> 01:07:50,523
it knows like when you're traveling, it knows to
put time in between in person and Zoom meetings.

1053
01:07:50,793 --> 01:07:53,223
It just has all it, it basically, they've

1054
01:07:53,223 --> 01:07:54,993
captured all of the edge cases.

1055
01:07:55,713 --> 01:07:57,213
and I think the most interesting

1056
01:07:57,213 --> 01:08:01,668
thing cause it kind of Shows you how
these AI agents are gonna be priced.

1057
01:08:01,668 --> 01:08:06,528
When you do the demo and you do the two week
trial, they give you like a range of pricing.

1058
01:08:06,528 --> 01:08:07,608
So they say, Hey, this is gonna be

1059
01:08:07,608 --> 01:08:08,838
between 150 and

1060
01:08:08,838 --> 01:08:13,308
$500. And then once you, it's
basically you've started using

1061
01:08:13,308 --> 01:08:13,638
it all the

1062
01:08:13,638 --> 01:08:16,128
time, two weeks later they
come back and tell you the

1063
01:08:16,128 --> 01:08:18,319
price, you're kind of already stuck using it.

1064
01:08:18,319 --> 01:08:18,769
So

1065
01:08:18,786 --> 01:08:19,086
Brian: Wait,

1066
01:08:19,519 --> 01:08:20,059
AB: I've just

1067
01:08:20,886 --> 01:08:21,006
a

1068
01:08:22,191 --> 01:08:24,045
Yeah, they say it's based on the number of

1069
01:08:24,075 --> 01:08:27,135
meetings, but they, there's
no, it's completely opaque

1070
01:08:27,135 --> 01:08:27,765
pricing.

1071
01:08:27,885 --> 01:08:31,095
They just, They came back and,
and kind of picked a price in the

1072
01:08:31,095 --> 01:08:31,455
middle of the

1073
01:08:31,455 --> 01:08:33,435
range saying this, you're right below

1074
01:08:33,435 --> 01:08:34,215
a power user.

1075
01:08:34,215 --> 01:08:34,485
This is

1076
01:08:34,485 --> 01:08:35,145
what we think,

1077
01:08:35,686 --> 01:08:42,736
Brian: so wait, I, I, thought that
all of this AI stuff was going to make
like SaaS obsolete and because it's all

1078
01:08:42,736 --> 01:08:48,976
bloated and overpriced, and now
you're telling me that like Calendly
is gonna cost 500 bucks a month.

1079
01:08:49,525 --> 01:08:50,880
AB: Hey, but this provides real utility.

1080
01:08:52,132 --> 01:08:52,462
Brian: All right.

1081
01:08:52,522 --> 01:08:53,392
We should leave it there.

1082
01:08:54,382 --> 01:08:56,002
I'm not happy ab

1083
01:08:57,907 --> 01:09:06,090
Troy: That's it for this episode of people
versus algorithms where each week we uncover
patterns shaping media culture and technology.

1084
01:09:06,495 --> 01:09:09,935
Big thanks as always to our
producer, Vanja Arsenov.

1085
01:09:10,445 --> 01:09:15,125
She always makes us a little clearer
and more understandable and we
appreciate her very, very much.

1086
01:09:15,625 --> 01:09:19,075
If you're enjoying these conversations,
we'd love for you to leave us a review.

1087
01:09:19,511 --> 01:09:22,171
It helps us get the word out
and keeps our community growing.

1088
01:09:22,646 --> 01:09:24,336
Remember, you can find People vs.

1089
01:09:24,366 --> 01:09:28,806
Algorithms on Apple Podcasts,
on Spotify, and now on YouTube.

1090
01:09:29,289 --> 01:09:31,579
Thanks for listening and
we'll see you again next week.

1091
01:09:32,115 --> 01:09:32,715
See you guys

1092
01:09:32,938 --> 01:09:33,158
AB: Bye.

1093
01:09:33,413 --> 01:09:33,893
Brian: all right.

1094
01:09:33,983 --> 01:09:34,823
We'll leave it there.

1095
01:09:34,853 --> 01:09:35,845
Thank you all.