You got questions going out of your mind. Someone with answers.

Now that's hard to find, like the what and the why and the how.

Stuff works or just where to go.

To avoid all the jerks.

She's Gear Abby. Gear Abby. Gear Abby. Advice that doesn't suck. Gear Abby.

Hello there, my outdoorsy friends, and welcome to Gear Abbey, where we tackle the controversial, weird, obscure, and taboo topics that other outdoor podcasts refuse to touch. I'm outdoor educator and writer Shawnté Salabert, and I'm here to answer your burning questions about our relationships with outdoor people, products, places, and pastimes. And I want them all, because, remember, there are no dumb questions, just smart advice. All right, good friends, this is how it works. You're going to send questions to dear gearabbymail.com and I'll answer a couple each week here on the show. And. And I will be doing that with my partner in crime, my partner in gear, my partner in mustache, the producer of Gear Abby, and a guy who is currently starring in the role of super dad, Colin. True.

Well, I guess I'll take the. Is that a compliment? Am I super dad?

It's a compliment. We had to. I'm saying this because you've had to reschedule things because you're super dad.

I kind of forgot that. You know what? Being humble is part of being super dad. I forgot that we did that. So, yes, you're right. I am super dad. Hear me, Roy.

Take the compliment, man. I rarely dish them out.

No, I don't. Yes, my. My wife peeled off unexpectedly, and all of a sudden, I've had a lot of things thrown into flux. It's like, oh, my afternoons have just gotten way more loaded than they were before, so.

But that's when you call super dad. Can you please. Can you please make a voice for that?

Super dad? And also, I like that it's a.

Little like, more 80s. Like, step into a slim gym. Yeah. Or snap into us. I always thought step into a slim gym. I thought it was step into it. And then one day I was much older, and I was like, oh, it's because he's snapping it. Snapping into it.

Yeah. Yeah.

I don't. You don't want to stand on top of your food.

I mean, if I could enter a slim Jim and, like, eat it from the inside out, I'd be into that. I'd be down to try that.

That's terrifying. That would be. What was that movie with? Inner Vision. Inner Visions. No, that's the Stevie Interspace, Dennis Quaid Martin Shore. I'm also thinking of Inner Visions, a great album. Yes, that is the movie I'm thinking of. Wow. I haven't thought about that movie prior to probably since the 80s when it came out. But he doesn't he go in. He goes inside, like, I don't know, an intestine. Where is he? Is he inside?

Inside a Martin Short?

Oh, just in there, Just rolling around.

Yeah, he was supposed to be inside a rabbit. And he got, you know, the whole, like, criminal thing. They got picked up and injected in Martin Short and it just like. It was a whole thing, but it was great movie.

All right.

Classic 80s.

And you could listen to Stevie Wonder's Intervisions while you're watching interviews.

You can. You might. You know, I'm not sure it'll sync up. Like, you know, it's not like Dark side of the Moon and the wizard of Oz or anything like that, but.

Well, we don't know. We have no.

Has anyone tried.

Listen, 20 is coming up, okay? And I live in California also, by the way, people listening. Sorry about the absence last week. Not that I think any of you are paying attention.

We didn't put out an episode.

I didn't even notice. It turned out we didn't. That's because my life is basically wake up at 5am and then go to bed at 10:30am after working all day trying to get my book finished. So my apologies. Also. Second, I have to say, y' all are sending in a bunch of great emails lately, so please keep that up. I love it. One of those emails was from Steady, one of the hikers I met on the JMT Namu Pollo a couple summers ago. And he's the one that I talked about being stuck in his tent for a while during a storm. He emailed me to correct me that it was a full 72 hours that he was stuck in there. I think I said 48.

Oh, my God.

72 Hours is a lot of hours. That's many days. Made my soul die a little bit inside to read that. And then he also said that they he lives out east. And he said they're actually starting to require bear canisters in some parts of the Adirondacks. So I guess the Sierra bears just started chatting them up and we're like, hey, hey, did you know the Internet.

Has made it to wildlife? And now on the bear message board, America, they're like, hey, guys, look, you know, you know, here's what you need to do in case you encounter these. And now people are using Them. It's a whole thing, I think. But that is 72 hours in a tent. Like whenever I see, you know, peril. Peril in like outdoor documentaries or anything like that. It's rarely about the actual like, you know, the avalanches or the storms. It's like, hey, we're on Denali and run our ice cave for day 17. I'm like that. I'd like. I was, I thought I was interested in maybe climbing that mountain. Nope, that's. That is not something I'm into doing. So three days stuck in a tent. That is, that is, that is bad times.

It's a lot of days stuck in a tent. I would much rather be on the International space station or Artemis 2.

If I'm gonna be stuck somewhere, at least put me where there's zero gravity. Yeah. So I can fulfill my lifelong dream of floating around and like, you know, that kind of stuff.

So that's all I want for you, Colin, is just a little bit of floating. Oh man. All right. Well, I've missed. We had a week off unintentionally. And I missed this. You missed this?

I did. This feels good. I got like a lot, a lot of takes to get out.

I know. I feel like I should be doing work it out here. I do feel a little like extraordinarily jacked this morning and I haven't even had coffee yet, so I. This is going to be a good one. We'll see. Why don't we dig in? What's our first question?

All right, first question of the day. Dear dear Abby. My partner and I are having a disagreement about long distance traveling for outdoor, outdoor recreation, tourism or whatever that involves cross country or cross ocean plane flights. We both agree that climate change is real, that traveling by plane is a carbon intensive way to travel and that there are many awesome landscapes, peoples, cultures that we can't find within an easy drive of our home along the US Mid Atlantic coast. How should we balance the short term joys of traveling somewhere really cool for vacation with the longer term impacts of climate change that are worsened by by those same long distance trips? This is where our disagreement lies. Thank you for your thoughts. Signed should we stay or should we go? Then there's a little postscript. They included Pierre. Here's some details that might or might not be useful. First, their primary outdoor activity is backpacking and hiking. And that is what we have most of on our local trips. Both of us have section hiked most of the app Appalachian Trail from Georgia north. Thank you. You, you taught me well. The Georgia and North Carolina border to. I grew up in PA, and nobody there pronounces it correctly either, by the way, from the Georgia, North Carolina border to mid Pennsylvania, that is parts. Those parts of the AT that are reachable for a long weekend trip. And we've already done a lot to reduce our common carbon footprint at home, ranging from the cheap adding insulation to the attic to the expensive solar plant panels, electric vehicles, basically. These folks sound like a model of the outdoorsy lifestyle. If you were going to, you know, create them in a lab, this is kind of what you would come up with, I feel like. So what say you, gear, Abby?

Wow. So just. Just a casual question.

Yeah, we're just starting cash today.

Cash start to the day. I feel like I have to briefly quote from the Clash, given the sign off and all. So should I stay or should I go? Now, if I go there will be trouble and if I stay it will be double so come on and let me know Should I stay or should I go?

Did we clear the Clash for this?

We didn't. That's why we're not playing the music. So I'm just. That was just a bit of spoken.

That was a parody that she wrote.

Yeah, I wrote that. It was inspired by The Clash. May have all the same words in all the same places, but still inspired by. So let's dig in and find out where that real trouble lies and where it's double. So we kind of already touched on one aspect of this in a pretty early episode, I believe it was when we were talking to Kristen Hostetter. So some. Somebody had asked about having a lighter footprint while they're through hiking. And she said, listen. And they're like, should we even be through hiking? Is that even a good idea? She's like, listen, go through hike. You're using way less resources than you would at home doing your normal activities. So we'll leave that there for other people to contemplate. But you're, of course, asking about something a bit bigger, which is air travel. So let's start with some numbers. This is what I. I had to quantify this. I had to understand this better for myself, so I can explain it better to you. So. So turns out the average carbon footprint, and to define that, that's basically the amount of greenhouse gases, carbon, you know, carbon dioxide and methane, that we release with our cumulative activity is 16 tons per year for the average American. So the Global average is 4 tons.

Nice winning. Here we go. Doing a real good job. Always ahead here in America.

People that's right. Constantly. Number one. And in that four tons that global aver scientists say we've got to drop that to 2 tons a person to sort of avoid reaching that critical global temperature. Yeah, no problem.

Next week that'll be just fixed.

Yep, I think we've got that. Yeah. So I think that's we're supposed to do that so that we can avoid kind of tipping the threshold into more catastrophic climate events and just.

I don't know if you heard Shantay, but that's. It's all been disproven. Our leadership says not a thing. Nothing you need to worry about.

That's right. That's right. They're taking all the signs down in the parks. Listen, so the client. I'm not even going to argue this here. If you don't believe in this, I hope you still listen another podcast. No, no, I hope you still listen because I want to frame this in a slightly different way in that the climate scientists have all agreed. Right. We've heard this over and over. A lot of people like to point to the fact that, well, there were glaciers at one point and there was this and one point. Yeah, no shit. Okay. That's what happens. Climate is cyclical. What we've done is accelerated the change past the point that has ever existed in history.

Again, winning. We made it go fast.

We are the winners. So anyway, when we talk about climate change, that's what we're talking about is that accelerated change, not just like it's going to get cold again and you're going to live in an iceberg. I'm suddenly about to talk about. Talk like Katherine Hepburn because I think the Eastern.

It's your default really.

In this email. Took me there. Anyway, let's look at when we. We also talk about like, oh, the systems are the problem. So when you look at Fortune 500 companies, it can vary from anywhere. I think Apple was 20 million tons of carbon footprint, but it can go all the way up to billions, billions, like Dr. Evil style numbers. And this is again where people are like, listen. Individual actions, they don't really make a change. It's really the corporations that have to change. Here's the thing, we are individuals here in the United States, at least living in a capitalist society. So we unfortunately feed that engine. So we do kind of have to consider our role. Whether or not it's like not using plastic straws, that's not really what it's about. So let's deal with what the two of you should I stay. Are trying to figure out. If you're flying overseas, let's say you're going transatlantic, you're on the east coast, your round trip CO2 emissions are going to sit somewhere around 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 tons per person for that round trip flight. So that's not a small chunk of your annual carbon footprint. Right. And that's like where we need to get to as an average anyway. So let's look at a few things. I went and looked at some numbers given by the EPA back in 2022, when the EPA was still actually sharing science with us. And transportation is in fact the largest contributor to greenhouse gas emissions in the U.S. shocker, shock. So it's good that y' all are thinking about that. But within that, the biggest offenders are actually SUVs, pickup trucks and minivans, which take up almost 40% of the total emissions that we're putting out there. You know, picking up what you're putting out. Commercial aircraft was only about 7% of that. And you know what was even lower? Traveling by rail, 2% of carbon emissions.

The transatlantic railroad.

Yes, that's right. If you got, if you got some time, honestly, living on the east coast, you have some great options. They've got better high speed options over there which are more efficient. But that's something you can consider is maybe switching out some of those trips where you're flying to trips where you're staying, maybe more on the east side of the country and doing rail trips. So there are a lot of lines over there that can connect and do that. And even if you are traveling overseas, you know, maybe instead of flying between countries, if you're doing multiple countries, take a train. Plus, it's very romantic. Okay, it is, it is. You're just sitting there, the countryside is passing you by, you're reading a novel and drinking a snifter of brandy. I don't know what you're doing.

It's exactly what you do.

What I'm doing. What I'm doing right now, in fact, which would explain today's episode. So there's one option for you, but I will say, like, overall, the consensus is taking one flight, one cross country or one transatlantic flight a year isn't going to be the straw that breaks the camel's back as far as climate change goes. And it's not just because that plane is going, whether or not you're on it. Right. But it's also because it sounds like the rest of your trip is going to be on foot. You're going to have a Fairly low impact. So that's. That's the nice thing about hiking, is that you are choosing an activity that isn't further contributing. You're not jet setting. Like, I'm in these. I was in this flight deal, Facebook group. And the people in there are flying every single week. They're flying. They're flying like to Dubai, and then they're flying to Australia, and then they're going to Singapore. And it's just. It is wild how much some people travel. So remember in. In context, like, yes, flying is one of the more carbon intensive things we do, but how can you balance that out? So consider rail travel. Consider, you know, your travel is already low impact on foot. So if you do want to feel a bit better about your flying, you can look into part purchasing carbon offsets. And so a lot of people I think are like, listen, offsetting carbon sounds like a totally bullshit concept. You know, there are good programs that actually have an impact. And so to understand that, you got to understand, like, how they work. Some of them actually fund things like forest preservation and tree planting, which is a huge deal because trees essentially suck up 30% of global fossil fuel emissions around the world. They're just like nom, nom, nom. You know, they.

That's what trees sound like. Everyone thinks that they're silent, but if you get really close to a tree, that's what you'll hear.

Sorry for everyone. That just. That was the wrong kind of asmr.

How would Katie Hepburn do that noise? I love that you tried. Okay, thank you.

I'm always here for an A plus effort. So. Yeah, so listen, that's one thing is funding very specific carbon offset programs that are like, hey, we're gonna put this back into trees and they're gonna suck it out of the air. All this crap you're putting into it. Other offsets will go towards projects like renewable energy projects, solar, wind, stuff like that. And there are actually other carbon offset projects, I was delighted to learn this, that capture methane at the source, which is basically like right outside of a cow's ass. Okay. They're not like funnels in the cow's butt, but they have methane capture programs at, you know, industrial commercial farms and landfills that actually make a difference in the amount of methane getting out of those places. Because those are the big. Those are the big producers.

Maybe we could get a new bidet for backpackers that not only rinses your butt, but also captures the backpackers methane too. Right?

Maybe. Then there's your offspring up the trail. It's a cyclical, it's a cycle. We got to start doing things cyclically.

So worst case, you get to set it on fire, which is fun too.

You know, not in California though. Okay, lighting part. No lighting in California, not in our forest. So if you're looking for a reliable place to do this, I would go to carbonplan.org and that is a good place to vet what is bullshit and greenwashing and what is actually real. You can also just put your money into specific initiatives. So like here in la, we have quite a few groups working on a broader citywide initiative to improve tree canopy. Because tree canopy, again, it's going to suck out all that carbon. It's also going to keep things cooler. It's going to help take out pollutants from the air. Like here we had. I mean, we can go into a whole, whole podcast about redlining and how it screwed up neighborhoods where, you know, lower income neighborhoods who are largely people of color are in places where there's tons of freeways and the trees got taken out because the police were like, well, we need to be able to surveil. It's all a real shitty little soup. That means parts of LA are crazy hot. And so tree programs like that, you put your money right into it and it's actually making an immediate impact. Well, once the trees get big enough, I guess. So there are things, other things we could do as individuals. And I will say y' all are doing a good job. You've made, you know, one of the biggest things you could do is switch to an electric vehicle because they have a much, much smaller footprint. Like a gas vehicle actually kind of equals flying if you're going the same distance as far as your footprint, you've also done solar. That's awesome. So another thing you might consider if you haven't, and this goes back to our friends, the methane gases reduce or eliminate your consumption of carbon intensive foods. And those are going to be mostly animal products. So it's just because of how they're farmed. So if you got a, you know, I don't know if you have a cow at your house, maybe that's different. But, you know, so basically randomly hacking.

Off pieces of your cow, you know, like it's time for dinner.

I know, that is such a disturbing thought. Thank you, Colin, for that. Okay, everyone. Functional pet, that would you say a functional pet?

Functional pet. A whole line of pets. We. Right, that would be a functional. Functional about a marmot.

It would be an emotionally soothing animal.

Okay, that's what dogs or cats are for. I'm talking about function beyond comfort.

A dog or a cat? Yeah, a cat. Specifically, you're saying that a marmot would.

Be a better pet than a. Than a dog or a cat.

If I could cuddle with a marmot every day, do you know how happy I would be? There would be peace in this world.

You're. He would claw your face off every single time.

But, you know, you don't know. We would build a relationship. Okay.

Shantae's Friendly Marmot. Sounds like a children's book.

Thank you. It will be. That'll be the next book. Yes. I need a book where I just make things up. Anyway, so in that same vein, I actually got to. For the big book I am writing, where I had to do way too much research because I chose to. I interviewed a couple climate scientists and I posed this question to them, like, all right, listen, what can we do? Like, people who love hiking, backpacking, traveling for these things, what should they be doing to have a lighter footprint? And both of them are like, listen, don't worry about recycling the cottage cheese lid into the right container. We need to be doing. We need to be essentially better instruments of change on a macro level. So keep doing the things you want to do there at home, but put your money into those efforts that help deforestation and canopy loss, that support local and regional organizations and programs that are aimed at creating positive where you're at and bother the hell out of your politicians. And I think we're going to have to start doing a much better job of this, like, showing up in person, not just in the streets, but at offices, and also getting people into politics who actually give a shit about balancing, you know, people profit in the environment. Yeah, it's just an idea, but that's really what both of them said. They're like, listen, talk to your friends about it, especially your friends that don't think it's a real thing, and talk to them about, you know, these bigger things we can be doing. So at the end of the day, like, y' all don't beat yourselves up if you decide to go on a trip. I mean, there is. There is a real consequence to all of our actions as a cumulative whole. But you're doing a lot of great things, and I want you to hold on to that and realize you are doing more than most people. And I mean that in the largest sense, dude, so go hike. It'll do you good.

I'm pretty sure it's similar to your point. Similar things we said when we had Kristen on I. I absolve you from this guilt people who wrote this and.

Like my hand is on your forehead. Yes.

The way to the world does not fall to you to solve. And like, and listen, you know like you can't. There is going to be. Yes. So there's impact, there's every. To everything. I mean you got. Look, if you really. But then what is a slippery slope, right? I mean I walk in the backyard like how many microorganisms did I kill by walking through the grass in my backyard? Right, right. You know, at some point like you gotta like live your life and realize we're only here from or like you know, 80ish years. And you know, do you want to deny yourself the experiences that you could have while also you and you are being wired the right way to think about these things.

So yeah, it's balancing responsibility and the freedom to do what you want. Like that is. I mean isn't that American? A nutshell. I think a lot of people just haven't learned the balancing the responsibility part of it yet.

I mean we are kind of wired to always look at the negative, right? I mean like this sort of. We're recording this in early April 2026 for anyone if there is a future listening to this, that so you can reflect back on it. But you know, the, the dumb things that our country are doing right. Doing right now that is leading to higher gas prices. Guess what's going to surge out of that? Electric vehicle vehicle sales. I mean capitalism can work in a lot of regards even though it has many, many downsides. So same thing if you know there's continues to be opportunities to improve airline emissions and airplane manufacturing and all that kind of stuff there. You know, you got to take the long view as much as the short view. I mean, what's the alternative? You want to like just well let's just send us back to before technology. Like well that's not going to happen. Right. So what do we do? So yeah, take your trip, man. It's okay. And you're like Shantay said, you are definitely doing it better than 95% of the populace at this point.

Possibly more.

Right. And it's folks like you that will help drive that change and everybody else will just benefit from it down the road.

Hell yeah. All right, you know what, that's a. That was a tough question to start with, but I think, I think we got there and that was great. You guys.

I think about that stuff all the time.

I know.

I think I've Said before, like, you know, the whole, oh, my God, I am traveling and, oh, I forgot my reusable water bottle. Should I not drink water today? Like, no, I'm gonna buy the single use bottle. Does it suck? Yes. You know, am I thinking about all the little plastic particles that I'm probably consuming?

Yeah.

But guess what? I need a drink of water. Sorry. So it's okay?

Yeah. It's doing what you can, how you can. And people who have more resources can simply do more. They can.

And be kind to yourself. It's okay.

Yeah. You don't. Like, we're all suffering enough under things. We'll just say things.

I already think I'm an asshole of the time. I know. Don't let.

Tell me about it. All right, well, what else do we have for today?

Okay. This is a really good one.

Okay.

Dear Gear Abby. Was there a deer Gear Abbey? No, there's no deer Gear Abby on this one. I just instinctually said it. This is Howit. Howit, which is H, O, W, Z, I T. Say how a zit. And then you got to fill in the rest of the sentence. Bing. Here. Bing, like Bing Crosby.

Okay.

Coming at you from the base of Mount Baldy. Okay. I'm loving the show. Thank you for being Goobers. You are welcome, Bing.

It's our pleasure.

It is sincerely our pleasure. It's fun to listen to. And it kept me entertained last week when I drove from Sea Tac to Olympia, I'm assuming. Oh, to the Olympics and back. They said to Olympics.

Not the Olympics. I think just Olympic, as in the Olympic National Park.

Okay, well, the Olympics are the mountains. Olympia is not that far from Sea Town.

There's no S on Olympic. I'm looking at the email right now.

Listen, whether you went to Olympia, you went to the Olympics.

Thanks for listening.

Or Olympic national park, which is the same thing. Good job. My question is more of a fun one. We love those. Imagine y' all are single and your friend says, hey, I have a cute friend that's super into the outdoors, and I think you guys would be a great match. You get their number, decide to meet up for a hike. What's one brand or piece of gear that, if your blind date showed up, would instantly give you the ick? For me, it's that horrendous arcterics beanie that everyone and their hypebeast mother is wearing this last season. Thoughts? Thanks. Signed Petable and marmot. Petable in marmot.

Like, are you wearing marmot or are you a marmot? That's Pettable. I have questions.

AKA Bing Bing.

I am single.

We are quite. We are quite intrigued by some of the choices made in your probably written on her phone. I'm gonna say this was a phone typed up situation.

I love that. You can send us any way you want to send us messages.

Email though. I love this question.

Seriously, we have, we've really had such good emails lately. I just have to say real banger here. You worked Goober, hypebeast and Marmot all into the same email.

So you seriously.

Yeah. Plus you signed off with two names, maybe three. I'm not really even sure what's happening there. So thank you for that.

Well, this is in the spirit of a lot of things that Shantae like to talk about where like, you know, there's a lot of just nicey nice in the outdoors and like, look, I'm sorry, there's definitely icky. There's definitely personalities and trends and everything else that make you go not for me. So great email.

Yeah, I love it. Well, I will, I'll just say I've been in this scenario. I am currently single, but I've been in this scenario in the past and it's usually just friends looking at somebody they know and being like, oh my God, they own a pair of Tevas and they've read A River Runs through it. You should meet. Or this lady owns a carabiner and has an REI membership. You should meet.

Clearly your soulmates.

Yes, I do have a carabiner. I mean none of those things give me, as the youth say, or at least they used to say, the ick. But I will say before I tell you what does give me that ick is that that I've had other like terrestrial. Terrestrial dates. I've never had non had some extraterrestrial dates too, maybe. It's hard to tell. Actually, some of these might have been. There was. There was the guy who took photos of me while we were eating but like secretly under the table.

Off. Are you serious?

He was just. He had his phone like balanced on the edge of the table. When I saw him, I said, what are you doing? He's like, oh, it was just so I could have a photo of you on my phone, bro. No, there was. I went on a date with a woman once who spent the entire time sitting sideways like, like a full 90 degree angle from me and just talked.

Like away like, like an old like, like cologne ad from like the 80s basically where like you were looking in one direction. Like if, if you both. If your heads were Straight you would not have been. She was looking in one direction, you were looking the other. But she just turned her head to talk to you?

No, no. She turned her whole body. Her whole body was completely turned and her head was turned. I don't know. I don't know. She was very stunned when I did not accept a second date. And then. But I think the best one of all was a guy I, I had coffee with like pretty soon after I moved to la. He did not. Not only did he not ask me anything for an entire, our entire, like it was way too long, 40 minute date maybe, but he also carried the whole conversation. No, I didn't say anything. I just listened. It's like, like he got free therapy. He also, at the end of it, whipped out a resume and a headshot and asked me if I knew anyone in the business that I could give it to.

And you're like, well, as a matter of fact, I do.

He's called Mr. Trash can, which is exactly where I sent it. Wow. Yeah. So I thought the.

There is like, I often lament that I miss digital dating. Met my spouse before the, the, the turn of the 21st century. But then I hear like this. I'm like, that sounds pretty terrible.

Yeah, you're good. You're fine.

Just walking up to people's bars kind of worked out for us back in the day, you know?

Yep. A job, you guys. Yeah, my. The bar is very low for me at this point, so I think the only two outdoor related things that someone could do on a date or show up with that would disgust me would be a leaf blower or one of those damn portable speakers that everybody and their mother uses on the trails here. Like I have a physical reaction when I see or hear either of those things. It's like my, my stomach just curled thinking about it.

You got the ick in your belly.

I do, I do. It's disgusting. But yeah, I'd say other than that. Like there are things that probably wouldn't give me the ick but would probably fascinate me in a way that I would be like, tell me more. Like why? Why? Like those people who wear clean white button down shirts to go hiking.

You talked about a through hiker that.

Did that extra clean. Yeah, it just, it was.

I was like, how?

Tell me how. Because I step outside and like the dirt comes to me. I don't even have to go to it. It's like, what does it like to.

Be on you sh. Is here.

Like I'm lady pig pen out there. I don't know what it is because I'll be with other people, and they are not nearly as dirty as I am, so.

Look, I know you've been well established in the through hiker community as being rustic, but Lady Pig Pen is way better. I'm sorry.

Pig Pen?

Actually, that's a great trail name.

Oh, I didn't even think about. I can't give it to myself, so you have to give it to me.

You went from here on out. I dub the Lady Pig Pen, get you a crown.

You know, a plus. I'll take it.

It'll be a dirty crown.

Yeah. You know the other people that kind of freak me out. Again, this is not a judgment call on them because I'm impressed and amazed, but it's the people who go outside with, like, a full face of makeup that does not move an inch. And I tried once. One time, I went on a hiking date, I wore eyeliner. Like, a little bit of eyeliner and mascara. And when I got back in the car, looked at the rear view, I looked like I was trying to do that spooky thing people do at Halloween where they make the black drips under their eyes. I was like, she's.

Or you are a notorious sweater lady.

We have. We've established that I am probably the ick for other people if I show up on the blind date hiking. They're like, you.

I get the makeup thing for that circumstance. Like, hey, we're having. We're gonna go a hike as part of, like, a get to know you date. Whatever it is. I get it. If a lot of folks are very insecure, it's part of their identity. And if it's a day trip, I get it. I, I. But I would imagine you have encountered people who are obviously backpacking who probably woke up in their tent that morning and put on makeup.

Good for them. I mean, I don't, I don't judge any of that. Like, I don't do it because I'm a lazy bee and I don't really care how I look when I'm out there. But, you know, more power to you do. Like, I'm. I'm a big fan of, like, wear what you like, look however you want out there.

Sure.

But it does still, like, amaze me. Like, how did you do that? But I don't know. How about you? Do you. I feel like you must have a list of outdoor icks, even if you don't call them that, that. Like, what would somebody showing up with freak you out?

I thought about This. I think the. The biggest thing is I. I really. My big. The whole thing about outdoorsy people, right? And even the outdoor industry is it's rooted in. I did a whole podcast about this called Layers, where it's. Basically. It started. We are. We were a bunch of posers, right? The. The industry started. I'm not kidding. Like, this is like a little history lesson, right? The industry started. And Rachel Gross wrote an incredible book about this. Look it up, she's out of Denver. Had a whole history about the outdoor economy. And it basically started in, like, the 1800s when, like, people finally had enough wealth that they could do vacations. Because before, you didn't go on vacations, you just. You just did shit so you could survive. And then people now had to kind of work the way up to the point where, like, oh, we have. We have recreation time. And they wanted to take trains from, like, New York and Boston and Philly and stuff like that to the West. And in order to look like they knew what they were doing, they procured buckskin suits made from Native American women. So when they stepped off the train in Wyoming or Montana or Colorado or whatever, they could quote, unquote, fit in. And I'm like, oh, my God. You know, we talk about posers in the outdoors and how. And it's like the whole thing started with posers.

Wow. People started a little bit of cultural appropriation, too, right?

And I think when you. Well, the thing that I noticed when, especially when I started my outdoorsy journey in the 90s, it's like, I wanted to look like I was an outdoorsy person, even though I was vastly not experienced as an outdoor person at that time. But I needed to have my fleece jacket on. I wanted to, hey, look at my day hike bike, boots that I'm wearing around to go to the mall and everything. I identify as an outdoorsy person, and if you do too, you're going to look at me and be like, ah, that's one of. One of those people. But what you don't realize when you're at that stage of the journey is you're a poser who's just wreaking of just something that you're actually. You're not what you think that you are or what you're projecting yourself to be. So my biggest ick is the people who try so hard to let you know, hey, I'm outdoorsy. And I think the biggest offender, if I was gonna pick a brand back to what's our person's here, bing.

I've got 17 names. Bing.

Yeah, Bing, Pettibouble, Marmot. I think choco is the biggest dead giveaway. I think when you see someone just rocking some chocos out in public, it's like, why, that's what flip flops are for. I mean like, or there are lots of casual sandals in the world, frankly, and I can't believe I'm saying this, you should probably just wear some Crocs if you're going out in Chacos. And I hate crocs.

No, they're croc. Completely different shoes. Colin. What do you mean?

It's a casual shoe. Like you're just out going to the mall on a Saturday. You don't need to wear your tacos. Okay, like that is a, that's supposed to be a river shoe, but it has become sort of the casual everyday, look at me, I'm out outdoorsy shoe. There was a time period when the like a pair of chocos with like Patagonia baggies and a plaid short sleeve shirt was like the uniform for the outdoor. And I could, you know, and it's like, guys, it's okay to have multi parts of different parts of your personality. When you're not on trail, when you're not out going doing outdoorsy things, just wear regular clothes, wear regular shoes. If you're going to pick someone up on a date, even if you know they're outdoorsy, you don't need to roll in in your outfit that says I'm outdoorsy. Like just be a human. You know what I mean?

I am so glad that this question got asked just for whatever you just did. That was, that was top tier colonizing.

Oh, that was not. I was hurtful and I re.

I didn't even realize what I was saying when I said it.

I know what you meant. No, I think this is something I think about when you and I are at a trade show together. We could be anywhere and we have on regular clothes and it's like even no matter how outdoorsy the trade show is, and that's always just been something I'm like, you know, why, why do you need to kind of just like announce to the universe I'm outdoorsy?

I will say the trade shows are kind of a funny thing. A. I appreciate that you are forever the hater and we'll let you just have that. I may disagree with you on some aspects of it, but I'm just gonna let you have that one. But I will say that the trade show thing always cracks me up because for people who've never Been who are listening. Outdoor industry trade shows are hilarious because everybody looks, they're like wearing, I'm a nicer side of out. It's like the royal robin side of outdoor clothing. Or like, you know, Patagonia and Toten coast, nicer options, whatever, like fancy North Face technical pants. It's just fascinating to me. I'm like, you guys are inside a.

Convention center and the people look, I'm interviewing for jobs at Brands right now. Right. And whatever, if that works out, you're going to see me constantly in the products of whatever brand that, that whatever that brand makes because that's part of the job. It's usually it's like the retailers, it's the volunteers, it's the non profit folks who roll into a trade show building where we're just sitting in for two or three days in controlled, you know, you know, environments in terms of the airflow and it's 72 degrees and perfect. But they look like they either just got off or are just about to go on the trail. And I'm like, ah, come on man, we all know you, who you are, you know, bang.

I hope that was satisfying for you because it certainly was for me.

I would like to hear more. I mean I, I love, I love this notion of like the ick. Like what is there are brands. I'm sure if we gave us another hour.

Yeah, people, send them in.

Send us dear gear abby gmail.com, but.

Send us your icks.

I mean I really don't have much against Chaco other than they used to be way cooler than they are now. But it's a, it's like there are brands that we all have them, you see like eh, not for me.

That's fair. Not everything is for every person, Colin. Today's episode of Gear Abbey is presented by the one, the only, the most delightfully alliterative outdoor retailer in the game, Garage Grown Gear. Want to see the latest and greatest coming from the coolest and newest outdoor brands? Yeah, you do. Head over to garagegrowngear.com, check on the new button. Maybe click on it. You could check on it, see, see.

If it's still there, see if it's.

Safe, if it's there, if it's safe, click on it and all shall be revealed. Including the following. Have you ever been hiking and found yourself wondering how much better your experience with gators could get? I have. Kachula has the answer for you with their instigator. I see what you did. That Katula available in three colors. Just add Water for instant gatoring.

I added that. I'm like, I just want the idea of the instigator. Like, just a drop of water and you have a pair of gators.

It's like a. Like a Chia Pet. Or like those things that come in the capsules. And now it's a sponge pet.

The amazing sea monkeys.

Those. Those. Yeah. Bless. All right, hankering for a chocolatey snack. Order up some Canyon Crack Adventure Butter. That's a hell of a name. Now available in dark chocolate Oreo Canyon.

Crack on its own is great. Adventure Butter on its own. Pretty great. Mash them together.

Oh, that's a lot of names.

Chef's kiss.

Well, look, no one's expecting shit to go sideways on the trail, but sometimes that is exactly what happens. What do you do in a buckle on your trusty pack breaks? Do you cry? Do you pout? Do you throw all your gear into the void and return to society to pursue a career in accounting? Of course you don't, because you're carrying Sea to Summit's field repair buckle in your pack. And you barely missed a beat when that OG factory buckle failed. Good job. Prepared hiker.

Wow.

Real, real winners today. Good job, Colin.

Thank you. I'm not writing a book. This is where I'm getting my creative.

Getting his creative kicks out right now. And the ad reads. Whether you're an ultralight backpacker or Colin or D, just an outdoorsy person who wants to wear chocos and see outdoor innovation at its best, you'll find something to love when you head to the official gear shop ofGear Abbey, garagegrown gear.com.

As far as I know, Choco not available on garage grown gear.

I know. Sorry, guys.

Bedrocks are, though.

Oh, Colin, we're there. Where we have one more question. We have used up all the time, maybe more than our allotted share. So we've got to dig in. What is our final question?

All right, final question of the day. Dear Gear Abby, I've been skiing and snowboarding since I was a kid, resort and backcountry, and it feels like an extension of my soul. All right. I'm finishing up college in a few months and want to spend a year kind of exploring my options for a career in the outdoors, hopefully in the ski world. So I was thinking about maybe starting with seasonal jobs. Specifically, I am curious about trying out for ski patrol next year. I live in a big ski area. First question. Is it even worth trying to become a patroller? I'm not expecting a glamorous job, but I Want to expand my skills and learn more about how mountains are managed and how search and rescue works. And I want to learn more about avi safety. I've already completed a level one course. Second question. What is the typical path to being a ski patroller? Is there anything I can do to make myself more appealing to the people who are hiring? Is it better to try and do volunteer patrol instead of paid patrol? Do I have a better chance? Thanks. Signed Raina. So she signed she, she, her are her pronouns. And Raina, I do know. Do you listen to this podcast?

I'm not the one to answer this question, but Colin, that's why we bring in people who can. I think we've learned that, like, I don't ski. My femur actually just cracked a little bit thinking about it. So luckily I know someone who not only skis, but who has served on ski patrol. My friend Pamela Zulalian. She is an avid backpacker, a llama lady. Maybe we'll have her on again. Send us your llama questions. Yeah, she's an artist, she's an author, she's an outdoor educator, and she's a total badass because she used to compete as a professional street loser and downhill skateboarder who was once like one of the first women to compete at the ESPN X Games. So welcome to the show, Pamela.

Thank you, Shantae. It's always exciting to be a part of any of your projects because you are one of my favorite people. So I feel very honored and very stoked to be here. So thank you.

Oh, thanks so much for. For people who most, most people listening will have no idea, but Pamela was actually one of the friends who did a lot of the field work for my PCT book with me. So we have many fond memories of winter camping experiences and all sorts of things. But the people are not here for that. They're here to hear about ski patrolling. Or at least Raina is. So I was thinking let's break this into two parts. Since Raina asked a two part question, let's start off with that whole question of is it even worth becoming a ski patroller? What say ye?

So, Raina, first of all, I just am so excited that you have such a passion for the mountains, for the winter sports. I just think right there, that already puts you far above most people that might be a little bit curious about ski patrol because you need that passion because it is a hard job. You are on the first on the mountain and last to leave. And there are days that are just longer than you would have imagine. And of course, if you don't already love the winter and you're not already, you know, really excited to be out in the cold and it doesn't drive you, you're not going to have the best time. So right there I'm going to say I am celebrating you. You know, honestly, Raina, I started out as a volunteer patroller and I'm not sure where you are in, you know, in the United States. I don't know if you're in California, if you're maybe in Colorado, if you're in a true ski resort town that has multiple resorts for you to go to. I would always suggest because with ski patrol, it's all medical. So you do need to have a medical background. And the fact that you've already gotten Abby certified is huge. That you're familiar with that country is phenomenal. But it's that medical aspect because ski patrol are the first hands on the mountain. When something goes wrong, there's a couple ways that you can approach it. You can go directly to the patrol director at any of your local resorts and just talk to them. They're going to be really excited. They do have days where they have recruitment days. So you can go to your local resort and just, you know, find out what the scoop is, what the deal is. Another way to do it is there's two aspects to ski patrol. So there's the patrollers that are paid by the owners of the resorts. And then there's nsp, which is National Ski Patrol. And they're an organization that is is 88 years old and it is the largest non profit organization. It has roughly 30,000 members. And I'm a member, so I pay my dues to be able to come on the mountain and volunteer. And it is incredible because it is established for someone like you, someone who just has a passion for the mountains and someone who is curious but not sure what to do. There's a couple avenues you can go down. They're most of the resorts through nsp, the volunteer end of ski patrol. They have what's called the host program. And so with it's called Mountain Host. So that would be the best way for you to start out because you would immediately get involved in a national ski patrol and nsp. But you're doing it from a perspective where you're not required to have this medical background, where you're still there to assist on the mountain. You're there, you know, as part of guest services. And it really allows you to kind of get to know the flow of the hill and decide if this is something you really want to invest time and money in. Because you are going to be required to, whether you're paid or volunteer. You're going to be required to get your outdoor emergency care, your OAC certification. You're going to be required to recertify that every single year. So it's a huge commitment from the perspective of, of safety and medical and all of that, because you as ski patroller or me as ski patroller, we are the first responders on the mountain. I think I might have deep dived into the second part.

No, I love that. I love that you deep dive and that's fine. I'm bring us back.

But honestly, you could go to nsp.org and just start looking around and just seeing what's available. Sign up to get their newsletter, reach out to them. You know, it is a multi tiered organization. Once you are a part of nsp, whether, you know, NSP is the volunteer organization, but that is the best way to kind of get your feet wet. You'll be surrounded by incredible people because when you're in this volunteer world, you really are with people that are passionate about support and helping, which is a little bit different. And I don't want to say the paid patrollers, because I have, I consider both the paid patrollers part of my family and I consider NSP volunteer groups part of my family, but both, it would be a great way and they're there to support you. This organization was literally designed for people like you, who are passionate, who want to support, want to help, who want to grow in the mountain. I mean, there are paid jobs, you know, as you tier up in NSP as well. So it's not just like at this level, it is a multinational organization level. So if you're curious, I would say that is a great way for you to start get your feet wet and just see if it makes sense, if it's something that feels right for you, you know. And then from there I have a lot of friends that started off volunteer and then they went into the paid side because they really just, you know, they love that particular resort. They really wanted to kind of do more within that resort setting. So there's, there are so many avenues that you can go and just deep dive down and really just, you know, I've been part of NSP for about 12 years now and I haven't looked back. Like I. It is something I'm so proud of being a part of. It is just, you know, rewarding. It's Exhausting. It's heartbreaking sometimes, but it's that passion that you talked about in the first part of the email that is going to make the hard days just the best days.

Days. Oh, I love that your passion is coming through. It's like, wow. First of all, I just learned about nsp, which I did not know about. I mean, I guess I've heard about it, but this is why we bring people like you on the show, so that I don't sound like an idiot. But I want to just go back first, momentarily, just to that first part of Raina's question, because you did such an amazing deep dive on the second part. I just. And you just kind of touched on the first part a little bit. But I want to ask you, I remember when you were first going through this process, like looking back all of these years, you know, being a ski patroller is not just a casual thing to do. You've really invested time and effort into this. Like, what has been the most worthwhile aspect of it for you?

That is such a great question, Shantae. You know, the worth, I'm gonna say for me, what I really, really loved is seeing myself step into something and seeing my own evolution and seeing the way that I could support, you know, injured guests on the mountain. You know, you learn about a lot about yourself and these kind of environments where you're hands on and someone's really, you know, in not in the best way and they're coming to you for support or for help. It's also you are going to be part of a team that will back you, that will support you, that will have your back, that is going to be all about your evolution and all about helping you get where you want to be and where you want to go within the organization. And that is something you don't see very often. You know, it is really, when I say it is a team and it is a family environment, you literally are, you know, there are definitely days that are really hard that you've, you know, been working with a guest that is incredibly injured. But you have each other and you, you know, always know what you know. There are resources for you on all levels, on your learning levels, on your emotional support level. You know, you're any dam on the mountain. I'm constantly learning. We're constantly doing, you know, working on different skills, working on making sure that, you know, we are the best that we can be. We're constantly quizzing each other. You know, we're doing scenarios like, I can't tell you how Many times I've, you know, scenarios are coming out of my ears, but it's a great way for you to, you know, stay on top. And, yeah, I. I would just say if it's something you're curious about, go for it. You know, if you're not sure whether you want to commit into spending the money to go and do the OEC Outdoor Emergency Care certification, because it will take you several months to complete that, it's, you know, a huge, huge commitment for yourself. Start off as a host. The mountain hosts are the best. You get the fun to be on the mountain. You're still helping set up the hillside. You're working a little bit differently with the guests in a different way. You are not part of the medical staff, but you are able to kind of see and get a glimpse into the world of ski patrol without that huge, huge commitment of time and money. And then, you know, like, well, shoot, I've spent all this time and money now I at least need to commit a couple years because I wouldn't feel like it would be worth it. So I would say that's a great way for you to kind of just get your feet wet, you know, and then go, like, seriously, go to your local resort, find, talk to one of the patrol directors. Talk to somebody. They do have recruitment days, and it's a great day for you to get on the mountain and just start talking to staff. We're going into our summer programs right now or our summer season for bike patrol, but that is. This is the key time for recruiting. So go to your local mountains and find out. Go to your resorts and find out, you know, when the recruitment days are, and then you can ask your plethora of questions and. And kind of get to know and get a feel, like it's all feel and an energy of. Of the, you know, the mountain and the staff that you work with. And it is incredible. It is such a. Really, really worthwhile. For me, as a volunteer, it is one of my favorite things, even though it's the hardest. I'm getting up at like 2:00am and I'm, you know, but. But it is. It is an output of energy that bring.

Gives.

Gives back for me.

So I love that. It's a. Yeah, that is. It's vibes. It's good vibes. You're doing it, you're getting it, you're giving it, and. Yeah. Well, Pamela, thank you so much for answering Raina's question. And coming on today, we are absolutely going to have you back on the show for everyone. Who's listening? If you want to learn more about Pamela, you should go and visit her website. It is adventureher.com and that's adventure without an E. A D V e N T U r H E r. And Pamela also teaches backpacking skills and other outdoor skills classes. You can find those on her website. You can find her on Instagram and see pictures of llama, which you want to do. We love an animal on this show. But anyway, thank you so much.

You are so welcome, Shantae and Raina. I'm excited for you and I'm excited, like, you know, email back Shantae and let her know, like, in the next few months, you know, you know what your adventure has been, your experience has been and kind of where you decided to go, because we need more passionate people on the mountain like you. So I'm excited.

Ah. Well, that's it for this episode of Gear Abby. Until next time, send your burning questions about your relationships with outdoor products, people, places, pastimes, and poop over to DearGearabyMail.com and I'm gonna do my best to answer them or find somebody else, like our conciliary Owen Comerford, who can. And of course, head over to your podcast listening service of choice and subscribe rate and leave a lovely review about kink shaming or not kink shaming and make our day. Follow us on Instagram at your Abby pod if you are so inclined. In the meantime, today's episode was produced by David Karstad and this dude, Colin True, the gatekeeper. Why did you say it like that?

Because I knew it would make you laugh.

You did, you did. And also, you're showing your range, so thanks.

Yeah, that's right. You got to go high sometimes.

That's right. Art direction provided by Sarah Gensert.

Love it. Show tunes. All about showtunes about sounds.

I don't even like show tunes. I'm Shantae Celebr. And remember, there are no dumb questions, just smart advice.