Well, Josh, thanks a lot for taking the time to chat with me. I was

going through some of your your stuff that you posted online, particularly looking at one

of the webinars that you did, for Jane. And it was so

fascinating because I'm I'm, like, super deep in the process of creating a workshop

for a conference, down in Florida. And, I

just finished it off. I'm practicing it, and then I watch your your webinar that

you did in 2021. And I'm like, what? This is almost the same

conversation. The overlap was absolutely astonishing.

I've had that experience many times in my life. Like, you know, it'd be a

great idea is x y z and then, you know I lost you. I'm on

I can't hear you. Oh, can you hear me okay?

Check 1. Check 2. Jess, hello?

Hello? Hold on now.

All of a sudden Mic.

There's my mic. Okay. 123123123.

Alright. And now I can't hear

you. What the heck? I know. It's ridiculous.

Hey. Come on now. I can hear you. Can you hear me? Yeah.

We're good. We're good. Oh, that's how it works.

Alright. Yeah. Alright. Well, I was saying I've

had that exact same experience. I've had many times where I've

sketched out an idea. I've talked to my friends about an idea. And then I

remember one time I was getting on a plane, and I bought an outside

magazine. And I go about halfway through the magazine, and I open it up.

And there's my idea that I told my friends. I was like, you know what'd

be awesome is this new and novel thing. And it's like Yeah. Not so new

and novel is not an outside magazine. You know? Just Yeah.

Heartbroken. Yeah. Totally. But I think in in our case, it's a pretty good

thing because the topics that both you and I talk about I mean, your your

take on it is is certainly different than mine, which I I really appreciate. But

I'm glad that there's such a big overlap because the things that we do talk

about aren't being spoken of. That's really what I'm looking

forward to to talking to you about today is is trust and communication.

Absolutely. And the other thing to think about is if you tell every single

person and you sign up every single customer and I do the

same, we'll still just be barely scratching the surface with

only North American health care probably. You know what I mean? Like, we're not even

affecting the globe. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Totally.

Yeah. Yeah. So Yeah. Let's talk a little bit about,

about well, I'm not sure if you wanna start with trust or communication because there's

basically such a profound overlap. But one of the things that I was looking

at, maybe we can dig into this, is is the the software

company that you you run, which is called Trust Centered Care. Right?

Close. Trust Driven Care. Trust Driven Care. Sorry about that. Yeah.

Brilliant name. And let's talk about that, like, the inception behind that and

the name and what exactly you do with it. Yeah. Well,

I hope you don't mind. I'm gonna tell a story, because that's where the name

came from. So a few years ago now, just before COVID, I

think it was around, like, 2019, I had a friend,

named Ryan, and he called me and he said, hey. I I have

some back pain. What do you think I should do? And for those listening, I'm

a chiropractor by trade. You know, treating low back

pain is that's the thing we do. Right?

Low back pain, neck pain, that's, like, what chiropractors are known for. And I had

a really good relationship with Ryan. And so he was just looking for some direction.

I said, well, go to your local chiropractor. He lived a few 100 miles away

from me. So he went and, you

know, things were kinda a little bit better, but not really. Then he went

to, I said, well, maybe you need rehab. Go to a physical therapist. So he

went to a physical therapist, then he went back to a different chiropractor.

Then he went to he got some massages

in there. He went to an urgent care at one point to get some meds.

He went to a orthopedic specialist who said, oh, this is a

hip problem. This isn't even a back problem. You're just getting referral pain.

Get an MRI of the hip and blah blah blah.

Went back to his primary care. In the end, he ended up going to 7

different doctors. Right? Seven different doctors. Yeah. So

diligent in pursuing, you know,

whatever you wanna say, like, different courses, different approaches, different thoughts.

So he went to 7 different doctors, and the 7th one,

is listening to him. And he said which he had said to

previous doctors, but this person picked it up. He said, yeah. It's really

weird. I've just been in so much pain. I can't eat lately. And that's

probably why I've lost like 30 pounds in the last month.

And, I've been taking so much Ibuprofen,

that probably explains why there's like red blood in my stool.

Right? And, you know, I feel great when I'm here, but when I

lay down at night, I can't get out of pain. I just have tons of

pain at night. Right?

And if anybody listening knows, those are red flags. I mean, blatant red flags

for cancer. Right? Like, that is textbook. We're all trained in

that. We know that well. But what was interesting to me

is I was like, Ryan, why didn't you you tell anybody this?

You know? And he said, I did or

there wasn't really time or I didn't wanna slow them down.

Like, they were nice people and other busy. I didn't wanna slow them down with

this. I'm sure it's fine. And that 7th

doctor ended up ordering an MRI of his

low back and abdomen, and

within that, there was stage 4 colon cancer

that had metastasized to his spine, the bones of his spine, the

muscles of his spine, and had in fact, penetrated his

acetabulum, basically, hence the hip hip symptomatology.

Unfortunately, by the time this happened, it was stage

4 metastasized. I mean, there's there's not a chapter 2 to that story.

So he passed away about 7 weeks later. And it really

dug into me. I was like, you know, if the first person had caught this,

could he have maybe get gotten discovered at stage 2? I mean, this is like

a 7 month travel, maybe 8 months of of care. Right?

And so I sat there and I was like, where the hell did this go

wrong? Like, this guy is he's smart. He's he's well spoken.

He's a nice guy. There's no there's he's not speaking a second language. I mean,

you know, like, sometimes we get patients, they're speaking Spanish or

or Portuguese or Chinese, and and we're English speakers or vice versa.

And, and he had none of those problems. And so it was like a a

microcosm of what goes wrong in in health care. Right? And I'm

like, what the hell happened here? So

I had a couple more conversations with me, and and one thing that's kinda stuck

out in my conversations with him before he passed was, like,

this idea that a patient, a well educated, well spoken

patient has this idea, like, oh, that I don't wanna slow Jess down. I don't

wanna inconvenience you. And on the same

regard talking to him, he would say, like, well, I just didn't know them well

enough to tell him that. I mean, I wanna tell him that I had blood

in my stool like it's embarrassing. And I'm like, oh my god, Ryan.

Like, had we known this early, we could have done something. Right?

Well, as I tell you those things, like, if they think you're busy, they don't

wanna encumber you, they're embarrassed to tell you, I'm like, what's the

core issue here? The core issue is not

what type of MRI we order. The core issue is we

in the model of medicine have set up the situation where our patients don't trust

us on that first visit. Right?

And to to give us some you know, this is a crazy

idea. But remember in health care, we have a crazy social

situation that we have to overcome, which is when do we ask those red

flag questions? It's on the first visit in the first five

minutes. You can't come up with another

social interaction where you ask the most difficult

pressing high trust questions at the early

part. Right? Like, if you're on a date, you don't start

your first date in the first 5 minutes before bread's even been dropped off on

the table and say, real quick before we go, are you

currently addicted to any, illicit drugs, and how many

times have you declared bankruptcy? Just before we start. Right?

But that's essentially what we have to do in health care. We can't wait till

the 7th visit to ask, hey. Listen. Is there any numbness in your genitals? Do

you have any incontinence? You know, all these red flags. And

so I was like, well, crap. Like, how do we

overcome that? We have to ask these I say we have to ask high trust

questions in our low trust environment. Right? So I think how

are we gonna do that? And I look in the research. You know, I go

to PubMed and start just burning through research because Ryan had just passed

away, and I was I was just bothered, you know, like, looking at all this

stuff. And I'm like, I'm gonna find the answer here. And there

were certain things like, oh, patients, you know,

report a higher level of trust when they spend 25 minutes discussing

their history with a doctor. I'm like, that

obviously that's great, and I wish that the model was set up for that. That's

obviously a university hospital where there's no billing going on because

I mean, I don't know any provider that could spend 25 minutes just in the

his the verbal history portion of their first visit. Right? Do you know

any I mean, I don't I can't think of a single profession where that's acceptable.

Mhmm. Mhmm. And so I was like, well, that's a stupid it's a

stupid ass answer. Like, yeah, that also, if

we were Thor with, with the body of Thor and with the mind of Stephen

Hawkins, yes, we could figure this problem out. But how about for those mere mortals,

you know, and ones that are working for a living? And so I

started looking at it and looking at it and looking at it, and where were

the disconnects that at least were reported in in peer

reviewed evident you know, evidence in peer reviewed journals.

And and then kind of taking that and classifying it and saying,

okay. The research is telling us what the problem is. The research

doesn't tell us any solutions. Right?

And, and it bothered me, man. I'm like, what what

like, okay. I have 70 different articles that say, yes. There's a

problem, and none of those offer a solution.

And I'm like, like, that's so frustrating. So, anyways

so then I zoomed down. I said, okay. Well, this is a problem of

trust, and how do other other industries deal with trust? So

so think, like, obviously, you wanna trust your banker. Right? Like, you're not gonna drop

off money to some sketchy place. You're like, are you guys gonna be around next

week? And they're like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's fine. It's fine. And there's always those

kind of discussions about, like, buying a used car. Right? Like, a used car salesman.

Like, oh, I would never lie to you. You know? You could trust

me. Those are red flags for you cannot trust me, and I would lie to

you. And then you just think about any environment where there's a high level

of trust. Right? And what is one of the ways we ensure

that? And so I looked at okay.

Let's let let's take these lessons from places that already do it. And probably the

area that builds up

trust really well and has really investigated it

is like sales and marketing. Because if I want you to buy something

from me, if I want you to buy a car and and you don't trust

me, I know right away when you say no to the sale. Right?

Or if I say, like, hey. This financing rate's the best you're gonna get. If

you trust me, you'll sign up for it. If you don't, I'm gonna go look

at other options. So I took that. I took

other information that Google published and,

companies like Salesforce. I don't know if you ever heard of them. They're a big

technology company. But all these different ones and

and said, okay. Well, they've they've handled the practical side, but they don't know why

they're doing it. They just know that it works. Right? And I'm looking at the

medical side and saying, here's the problem. And so we just kinda combine

those. And in the end, the

the way that you build trust to have that patient that comes in and

is totally honest in that first visit is the same way

as I you know, if I'm a financial planner, I get you to invest your

your $1,000,000 of savings, and it's established

trust before you step in the office. That's really a

solution. Right? And and if we go,

great. That's the that that's what we need to do. How do we do that?

And the the only way I know of

that is scalable and possible for health care providers is

you gotta diligently communicate before that person physically

shows up or hits start on the Zoom call if you're doing telehealth.

Right? And, and,

unfortunately, I don't I'd up to that point, I didn't. I'd I'd most of the

providers I know didn't. Right? We don't focus on what we're doing. And and

systems like EHRs and everything are not built to have that approach.

Right? So then I was like, alright. Well, I'm not gonna sit here and just

say, well, throw up my hands. Like, it could have been great. So we just

said, let's find a software that does it. Right? So

we we we tried building our own and

and spent a $106,000 and got almost nothing, and then we

kinda found yeah. It's not great. We found

we found some kind of off the shelf solutions that kinda did

well, kinda wrapped them up, and then

said that this can do communication, but it's not an

EHR. Who's the best EHR? And I was using Jane in my practice at the

time, and I'm like, alright. We're gonna we're gonna work we're gonna work to

integrate as best we can with Jane. Right? Get it to get the 2 systems

to talk, and, and that's what we set

about doing. So that's what became what you know as trust driven care.

We appreciate the story, and, I I always love it when

when a solution to a problem is heart centered.

You know? It comes from in your case, knowing a guy who has a pretty

tragic story. But, simultaneously, the fact that you're in such a unique

position also as a care provider to see the problem for what it is,

and then doggedly investigate that until eventually you come up with the solution.

That's brilliant. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah. Thanks. And I would agree that

that the communication before the session, like, that's

that's virtually unheard of because Yeah. Nobody teaches it in

school. Like you said, none of the AMR systems are set up for it.

People find us through, you know, referrals. Sure. Word-of-mouth.

That tends to be the biggest for a lot of people. Maybe you've got ads

going on. And that that type of communication,

it's it's good enough to build trust enough to, you know, drink this

brand of pop or whatever. Mhmm. But to, like you said, walk

into the door and immediately be like, here's all the most

intimate embarrassing things that I actually won't even tell my significant other. So

brilliant. Brilliant. I like that. So when you start this conversation now

prior to them coming in, how do you start to build the level of

trust required in order to really get into those red flag conversations

much sooner. So how does how does the software build that relationship and that

trust? Yeah. It's a great question. And I would

say that, there's not a single answer

to every situation. I'm a chiropractor.

You're an acupuncturist. I don't you know, we probably do 90% of the same stuff

all day, but I don't know exactly how it goes. Right? And

but here's some if if I were saying

so let's take you clinically. Like, if you think about the the last patient you

treated, what happened before they step foot in your

office is worth looking at. So here's an easy test. Tell your

grandmother to meet you at your office, and you cannot call

her on her phone or send a picture. Can she get to your office? That's

my test. Right? Because what you're gonna find out, she's like, you

know, Jess, it's your grandma. I don't know where to

park. Then that tells you you should solve the parking issue

before your patient runs into it. Because if they start running into roadblocks before

they step foot, they're not gonna they're just not gonna be honest with you.

But I use this example. If you were a personal trainer. Right? And let's

say that you have a 45 year old woman that says, hey. My daughter's getting

married in 2 years. I've never worked out my entire life. I've never run. I've

never done anything. I wanna work out with you. And you put her through a

killer workout on day 1. What are we sure

is gonna happen 2 days later? I hope that she's gonna be so

sore. She's gonna get out and get a deal with the walk. Yeah. Would you

rather have a situation where you send her a message

the next morning after the workout saying, hey. In a day or 2, you're gonna

be super sore. Here's a couple things to do, or

wait until she texts you and or calls you and says, Jess, I think I'm

dying. I I've never felt this pain before. It's in every

joint in my body and every muscle. I I pretty sure I have you know,

I looked on the Internet. I have rhabdomyolysis. Like,

you don't have that. You're just sore. But if you were

to send her that text and she thinks, well, thanks, Jess, but I'm not that

sore now. But then she wakes up the next morning, she perceives you to be,

a, an expert, and, b, someone who's so caring that you eliminate the

problems before they happen. So if we go to that new patient

exam, if you're somebody who's in, like, say, an office

building, you know, I know you know a lot of folks that you're saying

Toronto. Right? It's a downtown urban area. Tons of medical practice

on the 12th floor, 16th floor. Okay. Let me ask you this. Are

you making it clear where your person should park? Are you

making it clear what floor you're on? And when I come out of the elevator,

should I turn right or left? Because I'm sure you've had that annoying experience where

you go in an elevator and then you come out and you're at a hotel

or something. You're, like, walk halfway down the hall and you realize, oh, crap. The

numbers go the other way. These little things, if you

say if you send a text message before the visit and

say, hey, Jess. By the way, we're on the 12th floor. Be sure to take

the blue elevators up. And when you get out, turn left. We're about halfway

down the hall on your right. Those little things are just these

little deposits into our trust account, essentially,

and it does well. If you've ever lived in an urban area, how about, I

have some clients down in San San Diego. If you park on the wrong side,

like, you park on one side of the street, you will get towed before you're

out of your visit with your acupuncturist. Right? That's not a trust

builder. But instead, if they send a picture and maybe it's

even Google Maps and you just circle, like, park in these spots, they're

safe. Again, it's those little things that tell people,

hey. I care and I care enough. You can trust me because I'm guiding

you through this process. So you think back to, like, the Star Wars

movies. How does Luke end up trusting Yoda? Is

Yoda teaches him little things along the way and then demonstrates a couple

times, oh, yeah. You want me to lift the x wing fighter? I'll do it.

You know? Perfect. Mhmm. And he trusts him to to change his

lifestyle and and go attack the the death star. Mhmm.

I like that. It makes sense. And as you're describing these different scenarios, I

mean, we've all been there. Right? And one of the things that that I I

notice in those, you know, as a practitioner, I'm I'm pretty consistently

evaluating my patient experience when I go to see other practitioners

from a learning experience. Like, what can I do better? But one of the things

I notice is when when I do go to somebody's place,

I'm the type of person who getting somewhere on time, I'm, like, 10

minutes early all the time because it's it's stressful for me. Right? So I really

like to be early. And every little obstacle I'm just so

by the time I actually get into the room, I'm I'm sometimes wired. You know?

Like, if your parking isn't clear or if I don't know like you said, you

go down the hallway. So it's not only trust too. It's also it sounds like

you're making it so by the time they actually get into the room, not only

have you built trust, but you've also created an emotionally safe space where you've

eliminated a lot of those preexisting frustrations. Because when

I have those, sometimes I'm downright pissed off. Like, I'm like, I'm

Absolutely. Don't even wanna be here. This was such Mhmm. The worst is when

they have some expectation of you that nobody along

the way shared. Mhmm. And I wanna yell. I wanna be like, I'm

sorry. I'm your customer. You knew that you needed my insurance

card and that you would not treat me without that, but you never ever ever

sent a message, hey, saying you absolutely need your insurance

card. I got like, I can think back I had a pulmonologist, and it was

like, please bring your insurance card. I forgot it. I showed up. They

refused to treat me. I'm like, alright. Well, now we have a battle.

Yeah. Because you you made a sideways suggestion about

it. And now I drove 25 minutes over here, blocked out my

schedule, and I'm gonna drive 25 minutes home. If you think for a second I'm

gonna reschedule this appointment, you are out of your mind. She's like, well, we'll have

to charge you. I was like, lady, I'll burn this place

to the ground before now I reschedule my appointment with you. Yeah.

I'm offended at my core. And if I were to go into

that pulmonologist at that point, do you think he's gonna get any of the

scary information out of me? Mhmm. I I don't I don't wanna reveal anything

because it's now like you said, it's not a safe space. It's a now threatening

environment. Yeah. That overlays the scheduling department. It

overlays the clinical care. It overlays the discharge. It overlays everything.

And I think, as you said, nobody's talking about this, and I think that

these issues are overwhelming,

so many of our patients. And I wanna make something clear. It's

remember patients, there aren't there's no

monolith of how all of our patients are. Right? It's

like 20% really perceive a certain aspect. So I'll use this. Like,

20% of your patients are really where almost all of your Google reviews have come

from. That's just a rule that Google has. Right? And

20% of your clients in all forms of health care feel embarrassed

to even think about reviewing any service. They're like, I don't I don't review

anybody. It's embarrassing. I don't like my name being out there. Whatever.

And then the remaining 60% are probably between those 2.

Right? 20% of your clients are scared. They're

overwhelmed. They really need reassurance. And the

nightmare scenario for me is, what if within that 20% is

that is that false negative?

Sorry. That person that keeps telling you, no. It's fine. It's fine. And they're a

raging red flag monster, and you can't dig

it out of them. Right? That's when we have those problems.

Mhmm. And before I move on, I wanna tell you, when you said you

like getting there early, Google recently

said that for medical appointments of all types, dentists, chiropractors,

MDs, everybody, that it's

reported, like, 22% of people of Medicare

age will drive by the office

days before their visit to just get a feel for it.

So they'll physically drive. Where should I park?

Where should I do this? Where should I do that? And I think that's a

sign. So let's say a quarter of your patients are doing that, but this is

also the same people that are the most experienced in medicine. Remember,

at the at Medicare age, you're starting to engage in health care a lot.

So the learned behavior becomes, I should drive over and figure out what it's like

before my first visit. The learned behavior isn't, hey. I've I've

done this 74 times in the last 2 years. I can you know what I

mean? Like, they're not looking at reps as a as a confidence builder. They're looking

at bad experience and going, I'm just gonna drive by on Sunday before my

Tuesday appointment. It's fine. You know? Right. That tells me it's it's common

enough to have bad experiences that that's the reinforced behavior. Right?

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I I hope people hear that. So,

again, that's why I use the grandma test. How could you get your grandma into

your office without giving her any you know, I would

say, for me, where my last office was, I'd take a picture of the

outside because it's got 2 entrances, and only one of them really makes it

easy to get to my office. The other side is, like, the back entrance for

workers like me. The second thing is, how many times have you

pulled into the parking lot at your office? Like, literally a 1000

times. Right? This person's pulling in for the first

time. You know? So we just gotta honor those things. And and in doing

so, your question was about building trust. I think if we feed them upstream,

huge amounts of trust are built. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And in

in that process so I I think communication

is I genuinely believe it's one of the most important skills

that we can develop as practitioners because You're from the mountains,

Jess? Yeah. Great, man. Technical skills are relatively sim in

my opinion. Like, regardless of the modality, by the time you've made it to your

education, that's the point. You got the technical skills down. Right? It's not

that challenging. But, things like communication, still unbelievably

essential. So when it comes to this idea of communicating, of course, now we've

got a variety of different ways that we could do so. Email, of course. Video

calls, great. And now I wanna dwell on text messages for a second.

And the reason why is I have made that mistake in the past

of giving out my cell number and texting with patients.

And the next thing you know, I'm getting a 1000000 texts, and I don't wanna

have to have, like, 2, 3 different numbers. Right? I don't wanna deal with different

SIMs. So I I have felt in the past that

giving my patients the ability to text me is

asking for 2 AM calls or or not calls, but text messages

saying, hey. You know, I'm feeling I didn't sleep tonight. Can I reset?

So how do we solve that problem? Right? If we're talking, we're texting people and

letting them know that they're slipping the information. How do we do so without

maybe having to keep a separate business phone, or is that the solution?

Yeah. It's a great question. I'm gonna expand your question. How

about for people under the age of 30 or under

25 where they perceive in

safety, they perceive messaging through a a third party app

as a safe zone, and they don't wanna let you yet use their cell

phone number. So, for example, if I'm online dating, I'm

not giving my cell phone out willy nilly. Mhmm. But I will let you

message me through the mash.com or whatever. Right?

In the same regard, how about if patients are seeing you on Instagram?

How do you handle that? The reason I bring this all up is we have

a framework for communication that we say we call it the patch,

p a t c h, after Patch Adams. P is

always be clear on your patient's goals, not your goals for treatment, but the patient's

goals. A is always provide autonomy. T

is tailor communication methods. Like, if if

you're talking to a kid and you get down to their level, it's like tailoring

the communication. Right? C is always remember communication

basics. Use their name, shake their hand, make eye contact.

And h is, default to humility or

humanize the experience. Like, don't forget to

to be a human along the way. So

when it comes to the t, tailoring communication strategies,

and we're talking about building trust, have you ever got have you ever sent a

message or replied to a message Like, you got like, let's say you got a

text message, you reply, and then it comes back. This inbox is not monitored.

Please email our office at this time. Right? Okay. Now let's

say it it's something you're you're talking about your power bill or or you bought

a mattress or something. Right? But at that moment, do you trust that provider

or the the the provider of the service, the contractor, the

business? Do you trust them more or less? Less. Yeah.

Why is that? It's a weird psychology. Right? Mhmm.

I think it's, like, the autonomy. Like, they're forcing you to play their game.

Right? And instead, what we should do is we should tailor

our communication to the way you contact me. So, for example, if

I if you text me as a patient, I

should email you back. Yeah. Right. Yeah. It's not crazy.

Right? But, however, what if you send me a Facebook message, and I already

have your phone number? What should I do? Yeah.

It gets a bit tricky, but it seems to me it stick to the same

platform. Right. Let the patient dictate it. I mean, that's almost law.

Right? Like, PIPEDA laws and HIPAA laws are, like, let the patient dictate

the protection of their information. Right? I think it's it's always driven by the

patient. So if they did Facebook message, do it that way.

All that is to say, we should have a broad range

of ways to communicate, and most EHRs do one method of

communication, which is email. Right? Or they send,

like, one way text messages, which are, like, announcements. They're not really communication.

Right? So then okay. Fine. Let's

do what Jess says, and we'll get a office cell phone. Right? And

now somebody has to take it home, somebody has to answer. It's a pain in

the butt. Well, with current technologies, like, I

don't wanna be too self promotional, but, like, with trust driven care,

we can have a phone number for the office, and

any user of the system can send messages from that

receive messages and make phone calls

from a single number, which is the business number, which is what you want

because I don't as a business owner, I don't want them necessarily to build a

relationship with Josh or Jess. What I want them to build a relationship with is

my office because Jess may move on to open his own place.

He may move back to Michigan, you know, where his family lives. Like, he

you you know what I mean? Like so having that number also establishes trust

with the business and that number to your patients. Right?

So that's great. But as you said, people

don't play by your rules. Right? Like, they they wanna ask

questions when they want. And so we've come up with a solution for that,

and this is common with a lot of different communication platforms. But if

somebody calls, it's not crazy that they get a voice mail.

Right? Because what you're saying is, hey. You call, and I wanna do

something for you. I want the phone to just ring into oblivion because that lowers

that trust level. What we do is, we have

what's called a missed call text back function. And so what

happens is if I call your office after hours,

as soon as I hang up, they get a text that says,

hey. Sorry. I missed your call. This is, you know, engaged by a joint center.

How can we help? Right? If you really wanna juice it up since

you're a Jane user, you would say, hey. This is engage is my clinic

name. Engage by a joint center. Sorry. I missed your call. Someone will

get back to you in the morning. Right? We're kinda setting that forward pace of

when communication will happen. Until then, if you need to book, here's our link. And

you just put your Jane booking link there, which

80, again, 80 20 rule. 80% of your patients, if they've already been to your

practice, might go, that's actually why I was calling. I'll just, you know, I'll

just book through that. If not, you can respond,

and then they can also ask a question via

text. Right? Like because it's not socially

weird. If I text you, it's not socially weird for you to respond in 2

hours. Right? I mean, just socially, like, with your mom, with your

your family, it's normal. But the flip side

is if I call you right now, you gotta pick up right now. You don't

have a choice. That's the only way calls work. Right? So

texting has this kind of opened up timeline where it's okay.

So we do all those things so that the patient does get some response

or future patient. Hey. We heard you. We know you called, and we'll we'll get

back to you in the morning. But it also

works for the tired, overworked, beat up therapist that

doesn't wanna freaking answer the damn phone after 7

PM. You know? You know? So As I'm hearing you describe this, I

I actually feel myself getting pretty excited because what what you're talking is

is my language as as an online business owner. Right? Like, so I do

continuing education online. I've got a couple other online businesses on the go.

And without a good CRM system, customer relation

management system, my world would fall apart. I've got

automations for everything. Like, if somebody sends a message to my Facebook

or Instagram, anything, my system tracks all of that. And even if there's a

keyword, it will send them into a certain automation that will say this person's on

this. So in the world of sales Can we pause right there? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Here's what I see, Jess. You you have online business and so you're

familiar with these terms. I have an online business, so I'm familiar with terms. But

let's define these for people so they understand. Because I feel like in some sense,

health care is sitting in last century about these communication strategies. When you

talk to people that are doing certain businesses, they're like, how would you ever operate

without a CRM? How would you ever operate without this? And I'm going, baby, you

you people don't know how low tech health care

still is. Right? It's shocking. I had a

client the other day that said, we'd I can't even

say it's out loud. We we signed

up with Jane, and, so this

we're recording this early August. We signed up with Jane, and good

news, mid June, we no longer

do any paper charting since mid June. Of 2024?

Yes. They were self loading. The fact that in mid

June of 2024, they stopped paper charting.

And what do you say to that person? Like, hey, I wanna give you a

hug. Like, welcome, friend. This is a century.

Shit. We've got these things called airplanes. Like, they're it's awesome world.

Yeah. They genuinely felt like that was an accomplishment, and I I

don't want certainly don't wanna make fun of them or anything. Like I know. For

the last decade. But that's not a crazy

thought. Okay? So now let's go to CRM. What is

a CRM? Just for those listening, there are tons of

these. And if you've ever heard of companies name I used to use one called

Infusionsoft or Keyp, HubSpot.

I'm trying to think of others. ActiveCampaign, Mindbody.

These are common ones. And I what they

CRM stands for is customer relationship management

software. It's a customer relationship management. So it sees like, oh,

Jess bought this course for a $199 on

July 5th. 3 days later, he upgraded to the

VIP level course for $99 on July 7th.

He got this email. He replied it. Like, it just tracks all that kind of

information. So for those health care providers, I think

one of the things is our EHR kind of

functions like a messy, half assed

CRM in some regards. Like, you know when to just schedule, how much do you

pay. Like, those are commonalities. But they're

not really good for managing the people that aren't EHRs are

not really meant for, and they're not really good at managing when people aren't yet

patients. Right? I don't know how you handle it, but the way I handle my

Jane account is, like, unless I've done an exam and you have a diagnosis, you're

not going into Jane. Mhmm. Like, if you came to a workshop

and I'm enticing you to become a patient or, like, I like work working with

golfers. I'm doing some golf stretching class and stuff. That's cool. You ain't going into

Jane. Now if you go, hey. I have low back pain from golf. Come on

in. Fill out your paperwork. I'll put you in Jane. But I think in a

lot of health care practices, especially as you start, like, marketing and stuff, there's just

100, thousands of people that aren't in your EHR

and may never be in your EHR. Right? And so

that's what a CRM is, is how do you communicate with those people and track

all their behavior? And then you you mentioned some other word that I wanted to

define. Automation. Automation.

Keywords. You said keywords. Yeah. Yeah. Talk

tell people what a keyword is because I think keywords are one of those, like,

secret amazing things. Yeah. So within the context

of health care, for example, somebody, sends a message

to you, whatever. We'll we'll say Instagram because maybe they

saw something you're doing. And they send you a message, and it's like, you know,

I got this crazy low back pain. It looks like what you're

teaching in this Instagram reel would be good. So they send you a message,

keyword low back pain. And in the CRM, you can have it set up that

if anybody sends you a message with low back pain, they get kind of

funneled into this particular communication category. So then if you

have an automated response set up, which, like in the

sales world, everybody's got automated responses set up. Then the automated

response is something like, hey, you know, like back pain. That that certainly sounds something.

You know what? Here's a link to some back pain resources I have for you.

Right. Or if they somebody else sends it and you're doing, a neck thing. It's

like, oh, man. Yeah. My neck hurts like that all the time. Keyword, neck.

It sends them in a different direction. So it makes it so these automated

communications are so specifically tailored to whatever

the the millions of potential people who are seeing your

online content marketing material are going to be asking you about. There's a lot of

pressure off you as well. Right. And, another

common one, like, if if you have, like, a web chat widget on your

website, like, ask questions and stuff. That's something that

we do all the time with our like, Kendall, our mutual friend,

Kendall, did that. And literally on her website, you can

see, like, book here, book now are 2 buttons. And between

those are the web is the web chat, and people are asking questions like,

how do I book an appointment? You're like, please, god,

just look up up or down. But for those listening, you could set up

a keyword for the word book because that's a schedule

appointment. Like, if they use any of those words that kind of are the same

thing, it sends them, hey. Use our

a message that says, hey. It's real easy. We use online booking through this

site. Click here and sign up. Right? And then you just put your Jane Booking

link in there. You gotta kinda think through, like,

you're Canadian. I'm American, you know,

Czech. You might spell it with a q and I spell it with a c

k, but so you gotta think through those things or, like, would you say book

an appointment or schedule an appointment

or book a visit? Like, you have to think through what are those different things,

but Yeah. You can add all those in. Yeah. It's

really cool that that excuse me. And what you're creating

is, in fact, a CRM system for for unless I'm mistaken, but it

really sounds like that's the goal. Because whenever I shift my focus,

right, because I've got my online business, and then I'm gonna be working with

some patients. So I shift from my CRM platform over to Jing.

And part of me is like, why can't I do the I love it. Like,

it's an amazing system as far as EMRs are concerned. Genuinely

think top notch. But one of the things that I find I miss is

this way to communicate with my clients and and track

many different things, not just their appointments and the payments that they've given me,

but I wanna know how often somebody's gone to my website and not

booked. I wanna know that bit of information. Because if they're coming from

a website, and I see they've been there 10 times and they haven't booked, what

are they doing there? I'm I'm very curious. Like, what am I

failing to do on my website that's preventing them from booking? Right? There's

so many things. So it's cool that you're developing and have, from the

sounds of it, developed some pretty comprehensive software that Yeah. It's it's

it's it's Yeah. Yeah. It's funny. You know, we

we do we have that ability. We have that, and I'm I'm

glad that you see the power of that because it's it's kind of like

getting you used to a CRM. And I don't use the word CRM, although that's

what we are, because nobody in health care really knows what that is. They'd be

like, hey. We're sending Moon Juice, and you're like, I I have no idea what

that is, but sounds cool. Yeah. And I tell people,

in some regard, imagine if, like, you're a 5 year old little kid and I

it's Christmas morning and I take you out to the garage and I go, hey.

I got you a bike, and I'm I'm holding the bike up. It has no

kickstand. And I let go, and you, like, watch the bike, like, fall over.

Like, the hell's this thing? I'm like, you're gonna love it. It's it's so much

more efficient to get around the neighborhood and go to the park and go to

grandma and grandpa's. And you're like, that thing literally just fell over, and you're telling

me I'm gonna ride it. It's like, yeah. And then you hop on it and

you fall over and you skin your knee. You're like, this thing sucks. Like, you

you keep and then you finally get over that hump and you start riding. I

don't know if you had the experience when you're a kid of, like, riding a

bike. To me, that was, like, the first experience of complete

freedom. Totally. I'm like, you're you're telling me I can go to the store and

back before my mom even realizes I'm gone? I can go get a hostess

fruit pie or a scoop of ice cream, and my mom wouldn't even you know?

Or or my mom would say, like, go play for a while, and I could

now Jimmy's house is is a possible play site because it's it's

a mile away, whereas there's no way I'd walk there back in the time I

I have. So CRM, you

need to get the wheels turning, and you need to get a few people in

there and a few people hitting your website and a few people responding to messages

and a few people getting an automated message and all that. And then you

go, oh my god. How would I ever survive without that? I I

I have no idea how I lived without this. But those who have never used

it, they're going, it sounds like a lot of work. It sounds like this. It

sounds like that. And, you know, fair enough. It is it is a lot of

work to set them up. I definitely don't wanna anybody who's listening. I don't wanna

be like, oh, this is easy peasy because there there is a lot of upfront

work, but after 6 months, let alone years

later, that upfront work seems like nothing. I wanna

entice people to explore this idea and, of course, explore it with our software.

But let me ask you this, Jeff. Yeah. Shocking. Right? Let me ask you

this. In your experience, like, all the stuff you do with the CRM,

if, you know, you've taken the time to set this up, one

of the things I don't think people realize is for, like, an online education

provider, all this automation, if none of that

could be automated, how many people do you think you need to employ to deliver

courses, open up access, give those things

if it couldn't be automated. Ah, jeez. I I honestly couldn't come up with

a number. Like, when I if if we talk a course launch,

probably 20, 25? Here here's the reason

I'm asking. You've, I'm guessing you've owned a clinic.

Right? Oh, yeah. And you have your your service

providers, the acupuncturist, the massage therapist, the ones that that's the

only service you get paid for. And every person at the front desk

is a great for patient experience. I don't wanna discount

that. However, they're what you would call sunk cost.

Right? Every dollar you pay them doesn't actually get reimbursed by

patients. Right? I mean, obviously, they assist that.

But but how many clinics have you

gone to, Jess, where like, I've had this experience. I'm looking around going,

there's 4 people here. There's there's no re

they don't need 4 people here. Like, my gut instinct is they're just so inefficient.

They have trying to make up for it with bodies. But when you own a

clinic, what's the number one cost? It's people. Oh, it's

Right? People. Yeah. I mean, your rent is a big cost, but it's never

as precious. And you can pay your rent a couple days late. You can't

pay your people a couple days late. Like Mhmm. You know?

My point being, if you take that idea of, like, how much labor is

done by your CRM and apply it back

to your clinic 5 years ago, 10 years ago, how many people

did you hire? And looking back, knowing what you know now, how many would you

say, like, oh, yeah. I coulda had half that staff. Right.

I I don't know how to calculate that, and I think people who haven't experienced

it don't realize that. But, you know, like, yesterday, there was a huge

dip in the stock market in the States. So there's some

concerns about the economy. The freaking I don't know

about the in Canada, but US reimbursement rates and insurance are not going

up. They're not like, hey. We found a bunch of money. We wanna share it

with you. I've never got that letter from UnitedHealthcare. I'll be

totally honest. Right? And so you look at,

okay. Well, if I wanna end up with more money next year than I made

this year, you either gotta make more peep make more

money or reduce expenses or both. And reducing expenses, I

think, you're never gonna save your way through paper clips and high fewer highlighters

to a significant index. But if you don't have to have one more

employee, can you do that? But I don't wanna

say and and then incur a crappy patient experience. Maintain

the same level, but have less staff.

So I would love your opinion since you've kind of built some stuff out.

Yep. Yeah. I I would agree with that. And and I

I find that it's not only how do you

save money, you know, because if you if you have a good CRM software, it

it will save you a tremendous amount of time and effort and energy in the

end, therefore saving you a lot of money. But, additionally, it also has

the capacity to reach more. So on on a normal

day, like, every single day, I'm getting between

5, 10, sometimes 30 or more emails coming into

my system. And I'm not doing that work, so I'm

getting customers coming in. So not only am I saving money, but not

having to hire staff to go out and do this for me. I'm

not spending my time, which is valuable doing it

myself, but I'm having a system that's in place, and it's

it's really tactful. And saving

money and making more money simultaneously. So so for

myself, as I, as we get further into this conversation, it

baffles my mind that this hasn't been applied to, health care and

wellness practices before because the number one issue that I

see with clinic owners, even solo practitioners, particularly in the

beginning, how do I get new clients? How do I grow my business?

And you grow your business by getting more clients. And how do you get more

clients? Well, it turns out knocking on doors just doesn't work the way it used

to. Right? Right. Mhmm. Yeah.

And the other thing is when you talk about that patient

experience, one thing I love about CRMs

and automating certain systems so my friend, Ryan, that I told you

passed away, he had this great line, and he said he was actually really

into automation. And he said, remember, you can never automate a

hug. Mhmm. And it struck out to me. There

are certain times as we talk about this conversation about automation. There are certain times

you should absolutely not automate things. Absolutely. So I'll give you an example.

When you go to your mom's house for Mother's Day, you should not automate the

card you get her. You should not automate getting her flowers. Hell, you shouldn't automate

going to her house. Like, yes, you could just deliver

flowers, through some service. Don't do that. That that

you're a horrible person. Like, don't, you know, go to your mom. Yeah.

So I just use that as a place example. And there's certain things that

you shouldn't automate. For example,

you shouldn't fully automate the message that goes out the night of the initial pacing

exam. I think the best thing you should do is have a

system that always sends a message to every new patient, but it includes

some sort of information that they know. There's no way my

provider knows this without having listened. Mhmm. Right?

So if I I know that just do you have a dog? I always

ask people okay. Do you have a cat? Do you have any pets? Yeah.

Okay. Cat. What's the cat what's the cat's name? Barty.

Okay. So imagine you come into my office at 10 AM, and I send

you a message and I and and you get this message at 7 PM. Says,

hey, Jess. It was a pleasure meeting you. I just wanna check-in and see how

you're doing. By the way, give Artie a scratch for

me. Mhmm. Right? Yeah. When you add that little bit of information

that cannot be fully automated, what is the

perception of that patient and your

ability to listen? Right. Yeah. I I completely agree with that. It's

it's such a valuable thing, but there does come a point when and, you know,

in the terms continuing to use this term of sales, the customer journey,

when it goes from a potential customer to an actual patient,

the customer journey changes, and the way you interact with them and communicate

with them changes. So so I certainly appreciate you pointing that out.

And one of the tricks there, you can't automate it, but you can partially do

it. We have a little setting, and if if you don't use our

system, just find one that does this. You can schedule when you want the text

to go out. So when I finish a new patient exam at 10 AM, I

write the message then. I say delivered at 7 PM. I say, hey,

Jess. Because you're super fresh in my mind, and I want you

to impress me. Yeah. And then by 10:15, I've completely forgotten about

you and Artie and everything else. Yeah. But at 7 PM, you're

at home with your partner and you get a message and you're like, oh my

god. This person cares. Yeah. And that's great

sales, but what it also is is now there's a much higher chance that you're

gonna come in and go, hey. I know you asked me

about numbness in my genitals, and I didn't wanna tell you yesterday, but, yeah, that's

happened for 3 months. Good. Mhmm. I'm gonna get a I'm gonna order an MRI

right now. Right. You know what? And it I'm sure you've had that experience with

patients where 4 weeks and 6 weeks and they're like, oh, by the way,

Jess, I don't wanna tell you this when we started, but

Mhmm. I do have urinary incontinence. Or I didn't wanna tell you this, but

I have been noticing blood, you know, when I pee. Like

and I think what that is because and you've had this experience, right, like Oh,

yeah. Big reveals. I think that that what that is is that's a

sign that that person now has gotten over kinda that line of

trust with you. Mhmm. And they're like, now that I trust you, I want you

to know this information. The other version of it is when

they're getting some medical procedure that has absolutely nothing to do with your

profession, and they're like, listen, Jess. I'm

getting dental implants. I wanna know who do you think I should go to. It

comes out of left field, and you're like, I don't I don't know. I don't

really think about dentistry. But I think what they're saying is, I now trust you

as my my medical director. Like, you are my trusted resource,

so they just wanna screen everything against you. Right.

Anyways, all that is to say you can't automate everything, but you can make

things easier by scheduling them out or whatever.

There was something else I was gonna say. Oh, yeah. And when we go back

to the patient experience, because you brought that up, and I think one of

the power of automation that gets doesn't get the respect

it deserves is when you decide to automate your

process, like, right, your 1st week with if I buy a course from you,

like, what emails do I get? Well, the first thing you have to do as

a business owner is decide what really matters. Like, what are the messages we're

gonna send and you systematize it. Okay. There's nothing

worse in health care of, like, I go to see you and I'm like, oh

my god. My experience was great and blah blah blah. I'm gonna send my mom.

She's been dealing with some leg pain as well. And she goes and I say,

mom, how was it? You know, you went to Jess's office and she's like, it

was horrible. Nobody paid attention. They didn't lay me down. They didn't do

this. And I'm like, no. They they spent hours with me. You know what I

mean? Like, that disparity that happens between the the office I went to

when you're kinda had some extra time, and then my mom goes, and you're super

busy or something. When we automate things, we have to

decide what what's gonna happen exactly, and then the system makes sure

that happens every time. Like, if it's really important every time

to send an email with your origin story, like, how'd you become an acupuncturist, or

how'd you, become a massage therapist, or whatever? Why did you

decide to leave your last employer? They just didn't believe in the care I wanted

and so I did. If you make sure every one of your

patients gets that origin story, I guarantee you for those listening,

a couple of them will comment on it in their not everyone,

but a couple of them will comment on it and say how much it connected

with them. Well, guess what? You just built the trust level up between

you. Cool. I I appreciate now how you're you're,

tying it back together. Right? We've been trying for almost an hour, so it seems

like a a great way to do so is is ultimately the this whole

process, everything we're talking about, forms of communication, setting up

automations, and using a good CRM. Ultimately, yeah, it's great for sales,

and it saves you time, and you make more money with it. But at the

end of the day, the real point from from what I'm understanding, the real

point is to communicate with your clients in such a way

consistently without flagging on those days when you feel like garbage,

consistently communicate them in a high value way that builds

enough trust that your clients actually

tell you really the things, all the red flag things, the things that are really

important for you as a practitioner, which at the end of the day leads to

better clinical outcomes, which is ultimately what we're all after. Right?

Right. Yeah. And I would say you're a 100%

right. Clinically, we avoid those false negatives, which we know

that's false positives. I always joke false positives are

billing issues. Right? Oh, we gotta run this extra test and you gotta pay for

it, but really it was nothing. But false negatives, those are the things that really

kill people. Right? Like, oh, you don't have cancer when in fact you do.

And that's what trust really eliminates are those false

negatives. Now that's clinically. Right? But

if if there's somebody that's, like, super stressed out about

money and they're like, I don't I don't really I'm not concerned with that.

Like, I've had those stages in my practice where I'm, like, overwhelmed with paying the

bills and and it's totally respectable. Remember

that trust also improves your business. So for example,

if you recommend a care plan to me of 20 visits, and I

trust you and I trust what you're saying, I'm gonna go I'm gonna

sign up for the 20 visits. It doesn't come off as, like, well, just just

trying to make money off me. No. No. Hey, man. I trust you. That's what

you say I need. That's what I need. And the amount, hey. It's $115

a session. I trust you. That's a fair amount. Right?

And how many providers do you know that are complaining about, like, oh, I have

all these patients drop off their care plans. They don't complete their care plans. They

never fall through. Well, have you ever examined, like, do they trust that

that number is true and accurate and and they trust you put that

together? When you see those problems, I think just swim upstream

to, like, the previous few visits, and you can trace a lot of these back

to that first visit. But, yeah, like,

that builds your business as well. And if they trust you as

the only provider, like you said, like, you have those patients that

6 or 8 weeks into care go, oh, you know, I just I just want

you to know, like, I do have this. Well, who do you think those same

people that are coming to you with this intimate in information? Who do you think

they're gonna refer their friends and family to when it comes up?

There's only one choice at that point. But when they're in a sea of of

people they just don't trust or don't know, now it's just, you know, roll the

dice, baby. Could be you, could be someone else. Yeah. And so

it it when we get it right, it feeds both sides of the house. Like,

I don't wanna sit here and think, like, oh, you should do this just to

build trust and have perfect outcomes. That's a great part of

it. You also need to have a healthy business. Mhmm. You know?

Yeah. But you can't have one or the other. Both are the both at the

same time is the best deal. Yeah. I appreciate that. And, you know,

as we we kinda tie a bow on our conversation, I'd I'd love to

ask you a question that that I got a hunch. I know what you're gonna

say, but it's the question I ask all the time. And it's in your experience

and opinion and with everything you do, if you're to sort of, like,

really, really summarize it to the most essential

thing, What do you think it is that makes a practitioner successful?

I would say 3 three skills

are often out of balance. And if you rebalance them, you would

be wildly successful.

I don't think you should ever stop getting better at diagnosis.

Even if you don't treat anybody you diagnose, neurologists, they're not known for

treatment at all. Right? They're always diagnosis only. But the more

accurate they get, the better the patient feels. So never stop

getting better at diagnosis regardless of your license.

Number 2 is never stop improving your treatment skills.

And as a little asterisk, that also means when you

need to get really clear about when you need to refer somebody out and who

you're gonna refer them to. Not just like, oh, you need a cardiologist? No. No.

No. What type of cardiologist and what's the specific

condition? Right? But if you're treating physician like

a like a chiropractor, massage therapist, acupuncturist,

get super freaking good at treatment. Like, wicked

good, but never get so good at treatment that you forget

to get good at diagnosis. And I see that a lot. Like, chiropractors are known

for they they're polishing up their skills. I'm like, you're treating the wrong thing.

That is it's not a skill issue. And then finally,

the one that I think we started this conversation with that gets forgotten is communication.

Work every day on getting better at your communication, which our system can

help you. But I think it's like I always say, like, if you

don't understand bookkeeping, QuickBooks ain't gonna save you. Right?

Fundamentally understand communication. And what that means is when when

you're explaining something to your patients and their eyebrows raise and they nod,

remember, write down what that was. You know what I mean? Like, if you're explaining

facet syndrome and all of a sudden they go, yeah. I

I get it. Whatever the hell you said, please write it

down because it connected. It made sense to the

nonskilled people. Right? Work

on the way you deliver information or when should you say something. How do you

make that person like, in our world, low back pain, how do you make them

feel empowered they're gonna get better, but still respect these

tissues are kinda fragile? Like, let's not piss them off anymore. I'm not

saying you're fragile. I'm just saying the specific

muscle and ligament fibers are are are fragile. Let's protect

them. How do you explain that to somebody to say,

it's okay to get back to normal life, but it's not okay to get to

crazy stuff. You you know what I mean? Like Okay. It's tough. How

do you talk to a runner and say, like, you can't run, you

know, but I need you to work out. And they're like, yeah. That means running.

I'm like, no. No. For sure. But

but how do you say that? Well, when you when you come up with that

delivery method that gets them to nod their head and and look at you and

look you in the eye and fulfill, remember

that. And and I think we forget communication is such a big

part of treatment, and it's such a big part of health care. So whatever

you're best at I don't know, Jess. What do you feel best at? Communication, diagnosis,

or treatment? What do you feel like you're the skill that right now?

I think right now, probably communication is

my strong point. Okay. And And my challenge would be if that's a

9 out of 10, work to get treatment up to

9 out of 10. Work to get diagnosis up to 9 and 10.

For me, I struggle with communication all the time. Mhmm. I could verify

that with my wife and my marriage counselor. It ain't my strong suit.

I know all the research in the world about it, but I struggle to do

it. But my, I feel really good about diagnosis. I need to

polish my treatment skills. Like, clinically, like, that's the thing that's out of balance

right now for me. And I would say, if you do that,

you're never gonna you're gonna know what you need to take for your next CE

course. You're gonna know where you need to focus, and it's exciting.

Right? If I suggest, like, the next year, just get better diagnosis, you go,

oh, well, I don't need that. I don't need that. I don't need that. But,

man, that public speaking course would be amazing, right, or whatever. You know?

Mhmm. That's wonderful. Yeah. That's that's kind of my thought. And

it's a lifetime pursuit. You know, it's exciting. You'll never be as good as you

wanna be, but just focus on those.

That's awesome. Thanks, Josh. I really appreciate that. Absolutely. I'm

gonna put all the links to all the different amazing things you do because we

only talked about really one, one of the the slices

of the the business pie. So I'll put all the links in the show notes.

But is there anything you'd like to to add? Anything you feel like we left

out before we we wrap up our chat?

Sure. A little bit of self promotion. But if you're really serious about patient

communication and you're really serious about your patient experience, and

you're listening to this, I'd love to invite you. We do our live patient

experience workshops here in Las Vegas. I'd love to have anybody

show up. And what that is is we spend 2 hours just going over the

research and what do patients ask for. What do they want? What and then

once you have that, we can build out the solution of that in trust

driven care or whatever communication platform you use.

But I would just invite you to get in a room with other people because

one thing that's amazing to me is we get providers of all

disciplines, mental health, acupuncture, med

spas. And for example, med spas, there's never an idea they're gonna use

insurance. Right? There is they never consider that.

And at the same time, they have lifetime value of customers, like, in the 25

to $50,000 range. And I'm, like, a chiropractor going,

well, if I can, you know, have a lifetime value of 1500, I'm doing good.

And they're like Mhmm. I wouldn't roll out of bed for $1500. You know?

But just hearing the different approaches and what you think is a rule in your

profession and what I think is a rule, and people look at each other and

go, I never thought about that way, Jess. That's an incredible idea. I wanna do

it that way. Mhmm. Our 2 day live events are

amazing for that. So That's amazing. I'll make sure I have I have a link

for that too in the show notes. Mhmm. And if you wanna come to 1,

Jess, I'd love to have you as my guest, man. Experience it. Okay.

Yeah. That's great. Yeah. Like a weekend in Las Vegas and

yeah. Okay. You got me sold. Hard sound on that one.

Awesome. Awesome. Well, thanks again, Josh. It's been an absolutely

fantastic conversation. I really appreciate it. Thank you. Great. Yeah. I love

it. Thank you so much for the opportunity, Jess. Love what you're doing.

Thanks.