to Blueprints of Disruption, a podcast dedicated to amplifying the grassroots. I'm your host,

Jess McLean. As most of you might know, the NDP is currently without a leader. One could

argue they've been without one for years, but that's a different episode altogether, one

we've probably done here on Blueprints. Let's be honest, it's no secret there's no love lost

between me and the NDP, but That didn't dampen my interest in speaking with our next guest

about their recent announcement that they would be running for leader of the party. Yvonne

Glare, journalist, author, and activist is no stranger to politics, but if he's approved,

and that is a big if, this will be new territory for him. To describe him as an unconventional

politician would be an understatement. The very reasons that have made Eve a great guest on

our show are the very things the NDP has tried to distance themselves from. As you'll hear,

he's not naive to this at all, nor does he seem daunted by the impending shit show that has

accompanied NDP leadership races of late. He makes clear his intentions behind running.

There are a handful of issues really at the core of his campaign, and if nothing else,

he feels he can make an impact on those. If you've been listening to the show lately, you'll

hear similarities between Yves' goals and those of, say, the Revolution Party of Canada, who

we interviewed a few weeks ago. People just doing whatever they can to widen the political

spectrum that is Canadian politics from within. As we've said before, We'll never know which

tactics will work until we try them. We'll never know what pressures will lead to the final

break. But we do know that we've got to do whatever we can. We platform all kinds of activists,

organizers, journalists, and I guess now even the odd politician, so that you can draw from

whatever lessons you need to, to choose or maybe change your path of resistance. Our hope is

that you simply just keep resisting. and maybe share our content so we can reach more folks.

Now let's get to what you tuned in for. Okay, Yvonne Glor is back in the studio. I've lost

track of how many times you've joined us at Blueprints. I am so excited to discuss this

with you. Normally I lean on all your expertise, foreign policy, we've had you on to talk about

the pressures you're creating around Palestine and our politicians. And now... We have Yvonne

to talk about his recent announcement that he will run for leader of the NDP. I think one

of the replies I had on Twitter there was, holy crap. And lots of questions came pouring in

because a lot of people are like in this gray zone of can I ever vote for the NDP again?

And then they see you. And I think, you know, some people I never thought I would see talking

about taking out a membership are asking, you how can they volunteer for this campaign? So

you have definitely stirred the hornets' nest, Yves. What made you decide to do this now?

Well, basically I was asked by the Socialist Caucus. I'll be honest with you, it wasn't

on my radar whatsoever until I was asked, what is it, about a month ago, six weeks ago, about

representing or being the candidate of the Socialist Caucus. And my initial reaction was...

This wasn't on my radar. It's not, it's, you know, I'm doing lots of stuff. Yeah, I was

gonna say you must be busy. I have two young children. You know, there's obviously more

than enough work, just, you know, full time doing combat or challenging Canada's complicity

in the genocide in Gaza, right? but then I, when I started thinking about bit more, there's

like, there's kind of two issues that I think that I'm, I guess, uniquely placed to raise

that are really present. Now, obviously Canada's support for the Holocaust in Gaza is something

I've been doing lots of stuff on over the past 20 months. you the NDP has gotten a little

bit better on that issue. But in fact, if you actually sort of understand the issue fully,

they're still actually not very good on that issue. so there's, I think, need to push

further on that issue in general, then specifically even in NDP circles. But it's actually not

that issue that I would say is the one that really sort of crystallized, kind of saying,

hey, you know what, I should do this. It's the military spending issue. This is unprecedented

how much increased military spending since World War II that Carney has committed to

just, I mean, it's a trillion dollars over the next decade. The best case scenario is it's

just, you know, leads to slashing of social programs. It leads to boosting this authoritarian,

racist, patriarchal institution. That's the best case scenario. The worst case scenario

is that, as we've seen with these like, you know, monsters who've been enabling the genocide

in Gaza, that it gives them greater means, be it Carney, be it Poliev, be it other

future prime ministers or whatever, to unleash violence globally. So that's what we're doing.

We're putting this incredible amount of resources into the military. And the NDP can't respond

to this really. I mean, they put out a statement, it's actually hilarious. I guess it's about

a week ago, 10 days ago, Yeah, funny not funny. About the 5 % of GDP on the military. And

the statement headline, I don't have it right in front of me, it's NDP says no to 5 % GDP

on the military, which that would be good. That's good. But then the first 11 lines of

the statement are pro-military. And then even saying that we, they criticize the liberals

and the conservatives for not having followed NATO commitments in the past. they're sort

of implying that like if we was an NEP, we would have hit the 2 % of GDP, the previous NATO

target of 2%, but they're not really saying that directly. But you could also read it saying

that totally contradicting the headline, which noted the 5 % NATO target. And so a totally

contradictory statement. Some of it's okay-ish and some of it's just horrible. They campaigned

on increasing military spending, right? And didn't get much blowback from anyone. That

was tough to hear all three, sorry, four candidates really talk about increasing military spending,

RCMP spending, and strengthening the border, which gave so much space for Carney to do this

after, right? He doesn't just have a mandate from conservatives, he pretty much got a green

light from the progressive wing of Canadian politics as well during the campaign. So I

get you being skeptical on the NDP being able to be any force of opposition on this matter?

I think basically the picture is they box themselves in by supporting the NATO, specifically NATO

proxy war in Ukraine, but supporting a pro-Washington foreign policy from China to Iran. Even the

recent statements in Iran were a little bit less bad than all the stuff Heather McPherson's

been doing for many years. And what I see coming here is that over the next couple months,

we're going to start seeing Public Service Alliance of Canada, CUPE, Council of Canadians, other

kind of more mainstreamy left organizations start realizing that wow, this NATO thing is

actually quite a threat to us. It's not that NATO's a threat to people all around the world,

which has long been and the NDP's put all this work, but that there's actually started realizing

that this is gonna be a threat to Canadian social programs. And we're talking about a major transfer

from social entitlements And the Global Mail editorial board and Carney's even starting

to talk about this stuff to the military machine. I'm honest about what I know and I'm honest

about what I don't know. I don't think there's anyone else as well placed with the knowledge

and the credibility on those two issues to hammer away at Canada's complicity in the genocide

in Gaza and the military question, which are obviously somewhat interrelated as well. But

so that, yeah, so that's what kind of pushed me forward to finally say, yeah, I'll do this.

I only became an NDP member a few weeks ago when I started thinking about this. had been

an NDP member in the past. I have voted for the NDP in the past. It's always, well, maybe

not always, maybe the first time I voted for the NDP it wasn't, but in recent decades or

recent years, it's not with any illusions about what the NDP is. I see the realistic success

here. is using this space to push the debate away from sort of the mushy middle towards

bringing forward stuff about anti-capitalism, eco-socialism, about decolonization, land

back, about these kind of issues. But principally, on the on the Palestine Gaza question and and

the military spending. hear you on those two policies and I get why they're prioritized.

The problem with the NDP as you know, so this is and the audience knows I'm just repeating

it for the question sake goes the problem goes well beyond some of their bad takes on on policies.

It goes to how it's structured and their hostility towards frankly people like you. And me, right?

So like we've seen so many examples of like Sarah Jam is probably the most notable, it's

freshest in most people's minds, but we've seen, you know, other attempts at having, I

would consider you a grassroots candidate, right? Everything everyone was hoping for, because

nobody trusts any of the politicians in general right now, especially people who have been

advocating for Palestine. We've been so let down that I think finding somebody from outside

of those circles is a smart idea. But do have any idea on what you would tell people that

are asking about the way that party is run and the way that it has suppressed voices like

yours in the past? Democratization is a word that some people are using or the decentralization,

a deferring back to members as opposed to the consultant class that's currently running the

party. Yeah, no, mean, I obviously agree that that it's there's a obviously there's a major

contradiction between sort of suggesting you're a party of social movements of of activism

and this stuff and then being clearly quite hostile to social movements and activism and

you know, in the really egregious examples of Sarah Jama, you know, really in front of your

face, but there's there's, how many candidates over the past decade have been blocked from

running, even some cases being nominated by writing associations and then being blocked

from representing because they had criticized Israel. So that was the question that was

asked. The Toronto Star reporter today at the press conference asked, you expect them

to block your candidacy? Obviously they did that flagrantly and with... Angela in BC, was

that two or three years ago, when she looked like she was going to win the BC NDP leadership.

I Mr. Presser, what did you say? I said I they shouldn't. They shouldn't block it if they

if they believe that they if they believe that this this is that they you know, that we have

democracy in the party and they want to, you enlarge the tent and stuff like that. And they

supposed to speak tied to social movements and the like that they should they should. you

know, members vote against, know, fine, good, whatever, right? I really don't know. mean,

talking to people at the Socialist Caucus about how are they gonna block you? think there's,

obviously setting up the intelligent way of blocking is to have a high entrance fee.

So you just try to exclude people who are not from the sort of party establishment by charging

$100,000 or whatever to, know, you have to raise that kind of money. That's the sort of smart

way. We have already seen quickly the pro-Israel forces, the extremist pro-Israel forces are

going completely losing themselves online about this. I don't expect there's obviously, if

this gets any traction, there's going to be a huge push from pro-Israel forces to have

me barred from running. And obviously within the NDP leadership, they don't want me to

run. So there would be two different forces there, obvious forces that would just want

to stop this. Apparently yesterday at the council brought forward a plan for the leadership race

and it was rejected, 55-45, which is according to a socialist caucus, that's kind of an unprecedented

opposition. So there's clearly divisions within the hierarchy of the NDP. I don't know how

that impacts their response and their ability even to bar me from running. But yeah, I'm

going to proceed as if the campaign is happening, that they'll have whatever financial bars

to try to exclude. But we'll deal with that question when we know what the specifics are.

yeah, it's obviously... the lack of democracy within the party is fundamental. don't think

it is just a party problem. I think it is a much more broad problem in our society and

political culture in terms of we don't have structures in place designed to enable participation

and we don't want, all structures are a society, to tell people not to go to demonstrations,

tell people not to have empathy with others, not to... pay attention to issues and leave

it in the hands of the quote unquote experts or the quote unquote bosses or whatnot. So

I think it's a much deeper issue and it gets to the whole question. And this is one thing,

obviously the foreign policy issues are what I have focused my time and energy on in last

decade. But I do also really believe that we need to replace capitalism with economic democracy.

We need to have not just democracy in the so-called political arena, but it has to be throughout

the economic arena. And we need to be pushing those ideas. those ideas are, should be, there

should be a debate about that within left circles, within NDP circles. And I don't want anyone

to... take my candidacy, I don't know why anyone would, but to take my candidacy as some sort

of like endorsement of the NDP as some sort of, you know, progressive institution. I do

have to say on the notion of like, a lot of people talk about setting up a new party. I

was in Oslo about six weeks ago, and there's this new left-wing party that was established

because all the parties, the former left-wing parties, had supported the NATO proxy war.

And it was basically set up and they finally got the number of registrations, took like

six months, a year to get the number of registrations to become a formal party. the other left-wing

parties supported the NATO proxy war and some had left the party. And they were all excited

when they there. They just had some big success with this ad campaign about putting money,

instead of putting money more into the NATO proxy war. put it into social programs. But

their goal, they have a serious proportional representation model in Norway. And their goal

was still to get one elected. hope, you know, maybe a bit more, but really was to get one

person elected. So that's with a proper proportional representation system. We don't have that.

So I don't see, I don't see that alternative. Like, let's set up another, you know, anti-NATO

party, which people like, you know, raised to me or anti-capitalist anti-NATO party. It's

just the possibility of electoral success is, least in the medium term, virtually nil.

I don't really see that model. I haven't spent time working through NDP structures. I haven't

done that. I have. So we're going to go back. But I do basically agree with the Socialist

Caucus, or as I understand it, Socialist Caucus' position on this, which is that It exists

as an institution, it's an avenue of political struggle, it's got major problems, but what's

the alternative in terms of the party structure? I don't really see that. So that's something

I've considered for long time. And like I said, when I was in Norway and talking to some people,

even again with this deep proportional representation system they have, their hope was just one

elected official. And so I don't see any shot at that in the shorter medium term with

the alternative left party in Canada. think most people would understand that. I even interviewed

the Revolution Party of Canada. So they fed up with what was available to them, did start

a new party, but, you know, they described it as a bit of chaos. They're not even registered

yet. So like there is a lot of growing pains involved and that is again without electoral

reform. I get that. I get that. I do want to go back to because you covered a lot Eve. So

I'm going to like kind of we'll unpack it a little bit together. You name dropped Heather

McPherson there just briefly. We were talking about foreign policy and that is her jam. Right.

And but you know she was given that high profile position for a reason. She is the anointed

one. Right. It's not official but that's what I'm telling you. She's the one that they want.

And when I say they, always, I'm kind of referring to Central to the consultant and Lucy Watson

is the national director. So she gets to vet all candidates for leadership. She did that

with the Ontario NDP. And although a lot of people don't know about it, it ended up like

the DC NDP leadership race as well. So a lot of folks weren't openly rejected, publicly

rejected. but they were given such a hard time by Lucy Watson and shifting goal posts and

discouragement from within the establishment. mean, like that doesn't impact you as much

as it would an existing MPP who needs to kind of still get along, right? You could totally

go in there and blow the doors open. various pressures were put on people until they all

dropped out or were told they couldn't qualify. And that's like, there's one key holder there

and she's moved to the federal party. You know, this is the same person who kicked me out for

allegedly harassing people online, so like, holding people accountable. Eve, I don't

even come close to touching your level of holding people accountable. We won't call it

harassment because there's things attached to that, but... And also for anti-Semitism

because I used a cartoon... that had previously been used in a meme that was anti-Semitic.

The language had all been changed, but it was centered around me running for party president.

And so every tool at their disposal came out to disqualify anybody, not just me, but anybody

who was a threat to their standing order. I'm telling you, they will do everything and anything

possible to block you. Most people don't have lawyers at their disposal to kind of challenge

it because they often don't even go with their own constitution. I like to see federal council

pushing back. That is unusual. is Socialist Caucuses, right? That's very unusual. That's

a sign that folks are trying to push through leadership rules that will limit participation

and members are pushing back against it, right? Right now it's like a pretty low threshold

for fundraising, but they want to raise that. Like they vocally set placed seeds in the

media, right, that they want that increase. Another tool that they might use is they've

got Nathan Cullen talking to the media and he's saying that the NDP doesn't have time

for a leadership race. This party that is in demise, in freefall, they don't think that

there's time for a race. You want to comment on that? Because that's like the latest kind

of maybe delay tactic that they'll sit with Dawn as long as possible or really challenge

their constitution and actually appoint somebody. what do you say to Nathan Cullen who says

there's no time for an NDP leadership race right now? Well, that seems pretty absurd.

mean, you'd think you'd want to try to rejuvenate the party and rejuvenate grassroots participation.

But they seem to be kind of failing on that because they're also not able to force through

their rules on leadership race. It's just the time is kind of moving forward and the

strategy there, of course, is to keep it in the hands of the consultant class and the

anointed one, Heather McPherson. I'll say that with regards to Heather McPherson, I I

plan to be, I really go out hard on her. She's on the NATO Parliamentary Association of Canada.

She's one of two NDP MPs there, which is pretty egregious. Jean Chrétien takes a more progressive

position on NATO's role in Ukraine than she does. in terms of whether they'll block me,

don't... I mean, I'll be honest, I didn't want to say that at the press conference because

you don't want to give them the out. I expect to be blocked, of course, but how that will

play itself out and if there's enough dissent within... the establishment, appears to be

right now, maybe, you know, how do you even, who would even make the decision right now

to block me before there's an actual formal race taking place? So I see a scenario where

the really extremist anti-Palestinians whip themselves up into such a frenzy. Like there's

people out on Twitter saying that the NDP should be a banned terrorist organization if I became

the leader. And so they're whipping themselves up and then that even forces the more kind

of mainstream and maybe a bit more sober minded Cija to come out and start demanding that

I'm barred from running. But who makes that decision before there's actual race? I don't

know. They can't. You have to submit a vetting package. They'll design a package for you to

fill out once the rules are set. And then that's the only time they could. One trick they might...

try is your relatively new membership. So an amendment that required somebody have months

of a membership to qualify or worse, you know, like it might sound like a flippant amendment

that nobody really challenges, but it would be directly to block you or criteria on

Internet language, honest to God, the amount of monitoring that they've done of their own

members is astonishing. So their idea of harassment is basically using really tough language with

people in power. So I imagine like be prepared to go on those fronts, but I'm happy to see

this play out in the public either way. Like, I'm sorry if they put you through hell, Eve.

I appreciate that you're expecting it. And I don't think you're going to be terribly

daunted by it, but how they handle you will, I think, demonstrate to members exactly what's

going on behind the scenes of the federal party. We've not had a leadership race in a while,

and even the last one was controversial, had issues surrounding it. So yeah, there's definitely

no argument they need rejuvenation, and this could do it. Yeah, I'm going to be totally,

I'm not going to, I'm going put everything that happens will be totally in the public. you

know, they come up with, I'm not going to like, you know, there's no backroom deal that I'm,

that I'm, uh, I don't have some, um, the leverage over me. I mean, the leverage to block me running

obviously is significant, but their leverage in other ways is, you know, I'm not in a position

that, that, so I'll be completely open and frank with everyone about, about, uh, about this.

And, and obviously. The aim is a one in a million shot at winning. the major failure is not

being able to stop the killing in Gaza. But in some ways, I think we've done a fairly

poor job of politicizing the popular uprising against Canada's complicity in the wars in

Gaza. We haven't really, I think probably there's lots of people who now are more critical

of Canadian foreign policy, but I don't know that we've done a very good job of broadening

the challenge to the status quo, broadening the challenge to imperialism, broadening the

challenge to capitalism. And I don't know that, and I'd say that even for myself, I have

mostly just focused on Canada's complicity and Gaza. I've obviously written about other issues

and talked about other issues and gone to demos about other issues. But a lot of it has been

pretty narrow. And in fact, in launching this, I've kind of gone back to back to, like, putting

forward that we need to get, we need an alternative to capitalism. We need economic democracy.

We need challenges, radical decolonization and sort of broadening. And so I would hope

if there is ability to have this campaign move forward, maybe that can play some small

role in taking people who've been appalled, who've taken action on Gaza, also to get maybe

broaden their questioning of most obviously, foreign policy, but also imperialism and capitalism.

that can be, hopefully would be a contribute in some way potentially to that kind of broadening.

Yeah, I think had the NDP from the beginning been on point where their members stood, right,

like which had been clear in a previous vote at convention and worked with the movement

rather than essentially distancing themselves from it at the beginning, right? Like Jagmeet

was all over calling the Mount Sinai, the march past Mount Sinai anti-Semitic and progressive

politicians, yeah, almost were trying to play that center road the entire time and still

are, right? That most of the language is centered around ceasefire, not an end to the occupation.

And there's no talk of Palestinian resistance being legitimate. And there's lots of boundaries

they didn't bother pushing when they would have been the only ones to push it. I have no doubt

that would have helped popularize it, right? Because the ideas have social movements work

alongside political movements. and labor would have helped. There's, like, I know your focus

is on maybe economics and foreign policy, but when I asked, when I told folks I was going

to sit down with you and that they might have questions for you, many folks have been terribly

disappointed with the NDP's policy on disability rights and disability support. and frankly

disabled people in general. I mean, terrible. And I think like a lot of social movements

and labor movements have really left disabled people out of it. Like it's almost like the

non-entity, like they just see it as some marginalized group to create a policy around and not one

to engage politically. Can you speak to how you would possibly do that different and how,

I mean like, one of the examples is the UN has been very clear that we are beyond horrible

to disabled people. Like we are practicing a form of eugenics, we're offering maid, are

like disability supports our legislated poverty. And the progressive wing of Canadian politics

has really not taken up this cause at all. I mean, I think, you know, I I would fall into

what you're saying in terms of it's not, I'll be honest, it's not an issue that I've been

thinking about much or engaged with, active with. There are many different issues I've

been, know, go to demonstrations around and stuff like that. This isn't one. you know,

obviously with regards to the maid question, I support the notion of medical assisted

dying. I know that there is a whole, things have got to the point where there's talk about

basically being eugenics against disabled people because, and even the UN has criticized Canada

on that front. And the obvious side of the social entitlement side of, if people don't

have the means to survive, then life becomes really miserable and then there's... people

who may want to turn to maid. And so it becomes this sort of this, the, I would say progressive

side of the having people have the ability or the autonomy to make that request to die

then meshes with sort of neoliberalism and a way to not provide what people need. And

obviously what people need goes beyond just like, okay, well, you need a house, you need

a place to live, groceries and all that stuff, but also you need in-care... Supports, right?

Various supports. It's actually more expensive to be disabled. Like any disabled person can

tell you. Your glasses are just one example. that most people wouldn't think of. So the

plan here is as we move forward with the campaign is to have a detailed policy. I am a policy

type of person. There are areas where I've gotten... That might be fun for you. It's a

break from your usual gig. So the idea here is to actually have very detailed policies

on these issues. And obviously the way is to turn to those who've been campaigning and

the... the social movements that have been articulating the policies and trying to basically

adopt theirs or amplify theirs or how to frame it. And that goes with a lot of domestic

issues, I followed a little bit, but I'm not an expert. And my inclination is also not

to, it's not about platitudes or about just sort of talking points. do want to get like

really sort of detailed kind of thinking on different specific issues. I'm not in a position

right now to be... I'm grilling you on policy items and you just announced your candidacy.

It's fair enough. Fair, fair. It's like I said before, people are really excited and

I'll be honest, I'm excited because I want to see it and I want to report on it. I'm just

going totally open book. I want to see what they're going to do and I want to be able

to help boost it, right? Because I think it will demonstrate to people, honestly, the

futility of the establishment. I think I'm worried that in this moment here, folks are

going to start signing up to be members and they're going to get hurt again, right? Like

they idolize you in a way. Like I don't want to say that in it. I know that probably makes

you feel uncomfortable and it might even make some audience members feel uncomfortable. Like

I don't mean it in this unquestionable, uncritical way, but it's like we're looking for hope in

anywhere right now. And Canadian politics is so void of it. And when I talk about disabled

people, that's one group in particular where like getting out of legislative poverty is

like only going to seems to be happening by policy, right? There's mutual aid that can

happen, but quite literally they like live or die off of the government being in power that

can save them. Okay, like it sounds paternalistic but and there's so many others right that

have been going to politicians for years and have lost all hope. But what if they see it

in you, they take out all kinds of memberships, they invest themselves in this party and

it doesn't work out. Will you encourage those folks to stay in the party or? Like, you still

think, do you think there's room for reform beyond, you know, you as a leader? Some people

might not. I'm a little bit of a less bad person in politics. I've said this many times, like

I'm prepared to vote to defeat people in writings, right? If I was in like, I don't know, if

there was a close race and I was in a Poliev writing and it was only the liberal could defeat,

might make that vote. I don't happen to be in that. I happen to be in a rioting where it's

the other way around, it's, you know, I vote, last election I voted for the NDP against Guilbault

and I previously voted for a far left party and, whatever, Communist Party, whatever. But

I think that the world is as it is. What I can say is I'm not going to not be honest and clear

about what happens and how I see things. However, they block me, they call me in two hours to

say, no, you can't run or a week from now, or they put $100,000 barrier to try to participate

in I'll be honest. I'm not going to, irrespective what happens, I'm going to continue to challenge

the NDP's sellout on NATO, on Palestine, on- There's a laundry list. It's okay. to have

a realistic impact on the race, there needs to be dozens of people who are willing to

support in volunteer capacity of all the different things that needed to be done to amplify the

message. And then there is gonna be a need to have a thousand or two thousand or a couple

thousand people that take out memberships to at minimum demonstrate to, it going to be

Avi Lewis, Leah Gazan, whoever is supposed to be the more sort of left side of the,

bit more of the officialdom, and to show that there's actually a race. Yeah, there's actual

race and people are pushing, you know, it's not just like, you know, some random dude

making some comments about economic democracy, about, know, maybe we should talk about withdrawing

from NATO, but there's actually some people who really want those ideas and sort of pull

the bait to the left. I think there does need to be that. And obviously, in the context

of having the possibility of winning, you would need tens of thousands of people to become

members. So I don't really see getting around that, but I'm certainly not... know, committed

to the NDP forever or in any way asking anybody to commit in that way. Yeah, I don't know

if that sort of mostly answers the question, but yeah. Well, it does. And for folks listening

who are thinking about taking out a membership, like, it has to be Eve that signs you up. So

he has to be approved as a candidate. So I think finding out how you can start to shape up his

campaign, getting like, is there a way for folks to get in touch with you? Cause like

what more than one person replied with, you know, they didn't have a policy question. They

weren't going to throw you any hard balls. They just want to know how they can help. They are

already on board and want to know how they can volunteer or contribute. So have you been

able to set up any way to onboard people yet or Yeah, slowly here. The Socialist Caucus

has a meeting on the 13th that's going to do more on... was a first meeting, there was

some setting up of people responsible for different things that need to be done on the campaign.

And I think at this point the best thing would probably just to email me, which is just my

email, and I'll pass it around, or if people can make it to the... the 13th meeting. don't

actually remember the exact time of that meeting, but I can forward that. so, yeah, we definitely

need people to take on different whatever expertise people have to take on different tasks. And

I agree with you terms of the, you know, we haven't asked anyone to purchase memberships

at this point or to become members because, you know, that all needs to be kind of ironed

out with the It sounds like to me, if I may humbly suggest, the first thing you need is

a campaign manager. Do you have one yet? Well, yeah, we have the interim, Barry's interim

in that position. But if you know anyone who I have an idea of somebody else, I mean,

short term, but if you have any ideas for somebody, then we'd be happy to... Yes, we will talk

about that. Yeah, because I'm not going to give out your email Eve, like I don't know

how many people just like some bombard you. You have other things and we'll I will definitely

find a link to the meeting for the Socialist Caucus and we'll include that in the show notes

so people listening can first kind of step in there and give you a little bit of breathing

space. So like maybe there's another email that someone else can man for you or can can. cover

for you for a moment because yeah I don't want to overwhelm you at this stage there's there's

kind of other steps that you've clearly got to like work out first and get in touch with

the party because yeah they've not even officially announced there is a leadership race I mean

it's implied Don Davies is in there right now he's kind of real vanilla he's not gonna

stir the pot right now let's say You said one in a million chances. I don't know how to work

those out. Let's say you do. And what do we got? Seven seats? We'll get you a seat,

all right? Let's say we get eight. Do you think you could make an impact on Canadian foreign

policy? Like just for one example or NATO, if you want to be even more specific with your

energy there? I do. I certainly do. I certainly think on foreign policy. I think there's no

doubt about that in terms of being, know, both just in the terms of substance and highlighting

issues that are just not being highlighted and also what's called a tactical in the sense

of, you know, willingness to be disruptive in a political sense, you know, like in whatever

method of articulating the issue, right? And whether that's getting arrested for something

or... you know, that those kind of things and and and and you know, the the nature of the

position would have a curtailing impact on the sort of ability to just, you know, be

a alone, whatever, if you want to call it that. But so I would I would I would concede to that

to a certain extent. if you're in that position, you're not just representing yourself like

right now. And basically just certainly outside of this campaigning, I'm just representing

myself. And even in this campaign, you know, I'm just mostly just representing kind of myself,

obviously in alignment with the socialist caucus and everyone who, who, who, volunteers and

may volunteer. But, but it, but I feel like I don't feel kind of like constrained by, you

know, some boats. You know, I do think, you you, if you're going to be in the position,

you do have to obviously respect, you know, membership boats, right? So, so you, you can't

just go into the position of leader of the NDP and just be like, well, there's no party policy

on all kinds of issues and whatever your personal position is, it becomes a position. in that

position, I would respect the sort of, that stuff much more than in the effort to get

there. in the position, I have no doubt that on foreign policy issues, I think more generally,

I think... I think that, mean, like we have a, climate crisis is just, it's just like

it's out of control, like what we're seeing. And we literally, you know, the Globe Mail

report on business, we're to get to 4.7 million barrels a day of tar sands oil. And Heather

MacPherson supports pipelines. Of course. This is like, obviously this needs to be phased

out or shuttered in like, you know, is it, is it, is it? two years, is it five years, is

it... There has to be someone who is saying that in a direct sense. I worked at the Communications

Energy Paperworkers Union where they represented a bunch of the Suncor people and I get that

the here and now of the real world is not as simple as, okay, we just gotta phase it out

and then it all happens. I get that, obviously, but you have to be able to at least articulate

the basics of the... you know, scientific consensus on stuff like that. And there's just like no

one even willing to like state that in the political arena. Would it lead to a huge backlash? Does

it have electoral costs in certain sense in the short term? Maybe. I mean, they're at seven

seats right now. mean, right. So so like the the Jagmeet Singh, like really, you know, following

the establishment, kind of following what the media wants kind of kind of way, you know,

led to seven seats. So so there's a lot of people who who you know, they understand that there's

some big problems with capitalism. They understand that the notion of like billionaires, I mean,

it's completely odious. It's obviously totally inequality, but it's also just a complete

threat to democracy. Like how can you believe that you live in a democracy when there's people

who have billions and get to decide so much of economic life and then there's others who,

you know, making 16 bucks an hour, right? Like I think there's a lot of, concern about these

issues out there and and uh... you know is it is it easy to articulate that do people have

all kinds of confused ideas about all kinds of different issues of course uh... but but

i i i think there's no there's no doubt that there is uh... crying me for uh... pushing

on some of these issues and and specifically on the foreign policy issues i really do believe

that that uh... there'd be you know, many different ways of impacting a discussion that's completely

closed off right now. Well, especially if you're willing to be a little bit more disruptive,

because that's been one of my main issues even once the NDP got to a better position. I'm

not going even say the right position, because like you mentioned, there's still issues with

that. But it was the bare minimum. It was like, just stand up in the legislature. Not even

once did they use this mailing list they have, these millions in donations that they've taken,

and the platform that they have in the house and in front of all these mics. Did they call

people into the streets? Like never, for nothing almost. Like it doesn't seem to matter what

level of crisis we're in. They're still only ever willing to ask you to sign a petition

or donate. And they're politicians. really should all be in jail at this point, not because

they're criminals, but because they've tried everything possible within the House and been

reprimanded for it and been trespassed or whatever. I mean, they've been elected to positions of

power during a fucking genocide and we're supposed to pat them on the back because they

wore a pin into the House. Whether or not, you know, you could win a vote or sway a vote,

I get it, it's really not the be-all end-all. And even influencing the liberal position

on foreign policy or participation in NATO, I mean, being provided with an alternate position

is a starting point, but I think the biggest value you would have or someone like you in

that position is the willingness and the ability to get people to get out into the streets,

to be disruptive, to try avenues that were previously closed off to them, right? To not follow the

rules, perhaps. Do know what I mean? To rebel. We need revolution and we need people to know

that they don't have to work within all these really confined systems in the exact way they

were designed. I expect if you do get into this institution that is such a problem, not

just the NDP but Canadian politics, that you're the kind of person that'd be willing to completely

shake it up and not be worried about the personal repercussions, the career ending. manifestations

that play into most politicians' minds, right? They always check themselves. They're always,

is this popular? Is this okay with the party line? You know, I mean the consultants, not

the policy book. And they're always second-guessing themselves. even, I mean, I'm sure you think

things through. I'm not saying you're just like off on a whim, but you surely don't worry

about these things all that much, right? Like, will the Zionists have something to say about

me if I say this? I mean, you're already there. You're already in the weeds. So I think that

holds a lot of promise. A more rebellious form of politics that, you know, because the way

it's done now really doesn't, it's not moving the needle. Even if you had a good leader doing

it that way. I'm hoping to see you shake it up a little bit. I mean, I appreciate you

taking the time to do it. I know you're doing it for a purpose and not for personal gain,

because if you thought you had a target on yourself already, you know. You're going to increase

it, right? You've already said, know, the Israeli lobby, the Zionist lobby has already

gear it up to kind of smear you. I hope we don't see the same come from within the NDP

establishment, but time will tell. Let's say Abby Lewis runs against you. You said you're

going to go up against Heather McPherson and a lot of her positions. You've even outlined

them. What if Abby Lewis is your opponent? Will you go after him? Yeah, of course. I mean,

go after in a sense. I mean, I've written about Stephen Lewis and Michelle Landsberg's

anti-Palestinian policy. But they've come around, just in time. yeah. So, you know, I can tell

you that I sponsored a... public letter around the NDP withdrawing from the Canada-Israel

inter-parliamentary group and I had Naomi's and I had Avi's emails and you'll find that

their names are not on that a couple years ago, right? So I totally believe that Avi

is not going to, he's clearly better than Heather McPherson. I would prefer Avi in that position

than Heather McPherson. I also don't think that he's come out on Canadian military. He's

maybe been substantially better. And I do believe personally him and Naomi, of course, are much

better on Palestine than he has been for many years. So I think that is genuine. you have

to also respect, if your parents are a certain way and you go in a different way, you have

to also respect that. But I do think on the military question, that's not something that

he will push. And I will push that. And just in foreign policy generally, don't think that

there's basically alignment with the Washington-led geopolitical outlook that is leading to this

huge increase in military spending. So I think that would be, know, quote unquote vulnerability,

if you want to frame it like that, from a left perspective. But having said that, and I'm

not, you know, I'm going to be respectful but clear in my criticisms on policy issues. Having

said that, if there was a scenario where they did allow me to run and there was momentum

behind it and it got to the point where it was like, know, like, Abhi is the only one that

really has a chance of defeating Heather McPherson or whoever else is maybe more of the establishment,

you know, those questions would become, would arise, right? And I don't know my exact answer

to those questions right now, but... But I would go back to the idea that I am less bad.

think there is this sort of real world of how things are. I said this about in 2017, I joined

to vote for Nikki Ashton. And I asked, it didn't campaign in a significant way, but I asked

people to certain network of email people saying you should register to vote for Nikki Ashton

because Nikki Ashton, to my mind, was know, substantively better than the rest. But I did

that even though I had, in the campaign, I asked Nikki about, at an event here in Montreal,

whether she voted for the 2011 bombing of Libya. And her answer was a fascinating answer. And

I'm still not sure if it's worse what she said to me, that I've said she just voted for it.

And she said she didn't remember if she was in the house when the vote happened. So we

know that the NDP voted for two different bombings of Libya in 2011, which 14 years later is a

complete utter disaster. And she answered by saying she didn't remember, so like you literally,

there was a vote to destroy a country and your response, and I don't know if it was an honest

response or not, was to say you don't remember whether you had voted to destroy that country

or not or whether you had stepped out. She was kind of implying that. that she wasn't on board

for it and she was, you know, whatever, she'd been pressured by, by Leighton and whatever.

And I, I get that, I get that's a dynamic that exists within, within the caucus and whatever.

Even after she made that, told me that, which I wrote about, you know, right away, I didn't

hide that. I still, I still, you know, again, not, I didn't spend a lot of energy, but I

did campaign for her because it is what it is, right? I think it's better to have a less

bad or, you know. Please don't make that your campaign slogan though, Eve. You've repeated

it. Do not make posters with say, I am the less bad candidate. We've got to come up with something

else. I won't, won't, I won't state that in other public forum, but you get the basic,

the basic point. I absolutely do. NDP voters know exactly about picking the lesser evil

Eve. I mean, they know all about it. All about it. Oh yeah. I mean, yeah, anyway. I, I, I

just, to me, it's a matter of being like, it's about being honest and open about if there's

some form of concession, there has to be an honest and opening. I said this about, I'll

take this point a little bit further. said this about when I worked at the Communications and

Energy Papers and Workers' Union, became Uniform, so there were about two and a half years, 2012,

2014. One of the things that really struck me is that, like I don't... I don't have a problem,

just as a concrete, I was working in research but I did basically a lot of communications,

I wrote op-eds for the president of union and stuff like that, press releases. I don't have

a problem if someone says to me, the Globe and Mail is not gonna take an anti-capitalist position,

anti-capitalist op-ed, but they'll take something that says, you know, we have some lack of democracy

in the economic sphere, you know, they'll take something sort of wish you well. I don't have

a problem with someone who writes that op-ed for the Globe and Mail knowing that's the best

I can get out of that context. But then on your own website, on your own where you do have

the ability, on your own conference, your own speech, whatever, where you do have the ability

to say, hey, we need to replace capitalism, that you do, you you concede there, but then

you push there. And because it's part of like a bigger project of we're, you know, we're

trying to... consciousness raised, we're trying to build, we're trying to move forward. So

that to me is like, you know, there is institutional realities, there is stuff like that. But

you and you push whatever you can within that, and then you continue with, you know, what

you really believe, if you like, in the alternative kind of kind of areas. And, and, yeah, so

I don't know if that's the, you know, total answer to it. But yes, and back to the specific,

I will definitely challenge Leah Gazan or or Avi on who I understand with the two likely

kind of more left-wing candidates I will challenge them on where I see that they are, you know

Conceding or they're they're not going far enough or whatnot. Good luck. I I do anticipate that

they will give you a hard time, but your hope does lie in Working that federal council and

the executive to make sure the rules aren't just implicitly made to make it almost impossible

for you. Like I said, length of membership or whatnot, that would discount you right away.

But once those rules are set and the race starts, there surely will be more to talk about. But

yeah, very exciting times, especially in a time where nobody was really talking about

the NDP. You've got them all talking about the NDP again. You fucking got me talking about

damn party again. I try not to. I try to just walk away, but you draw me back in. You're

going to draw some of my comrades back in. know it. I apologize for that. It's all for a good

cause. do understand the practicality of trying to work these institutions. It's not for me

right now because I just had such a bad taste in my mouth. I just feel my energy is somewhere

else, but I do appreciate that comments are still. willing to wade in there and provide

an alternative, even just to show people they're another part of the Overton window we don't

very often get to see. That doesn't get a lot of exposure. It's saved for, you know, left-wing

parties that aren't even invited to debate. So I would love to see you get up there and

debate Heather McPherson or anybody else, but particularly the establishment favorite. If

that happens, oh, I'd love to have a conversation with you beforehand. Um, cause yeah, we've

got lots of dirt on McPherson. Uh, not a good choice for most folks. Um, but yeah, no, Eve,

I appreciate you coming in really last minute too. Once I saw that announcement, I had a

lot of questions for you and then the audience came up with some questions for you and,

uh, yeah. Be prepared to be pushed on, on disability rights though. And to come up with a policy

that's written by disabled people that takes into account the abject failures. That is

my advice because you could really rally a lot of people that are really eager for something

different. Yeah. So good luck Eve. Get out there. Keep us all informed on what's happening.

I know you like you got to start a blog like that's just really my navigating. this craziness

that will become the NDP leadership race. Any parting words? You're on the campaign trail

now, kind of. You know, that's unusual for you. Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, for most

of this audience is keep doing what you're doing and, and, you know, lots of different ways,

of course, to this electoral element is kind of new to me. But, but yeah, I keep doing

what people are doing. And, you know, if, if things move forward in the positive way,

If people do want to both assist with the campaign and then choose to become a member for a

short period or for a long period to oppose, to vote for, that's obviously much appreciated.

But yeah, mostly just keep doing what people are doing. Keep doing what you're doing. I

know this isn't going to suck up all your energy. You've got more than that to spare. And good

luck with any upcoming court cases. I forgot to mention that at the beginning, that was

your last episode on here, was getting pulled in by Montreal cops for, you know, tweeting.

So I can only imagine what the vetting, how the vetting team looks upon that. But we shall

see, we shall see. They're going to have a chuckle. And they're probably very nervous about you

announcing, which brings me joy that you're making the establishment nervous no matter

what happens and that the Zios are really agitated and wasting their energy there. So. If nothing

else, If nothing else, we make them uncomfortable. Thank you so much, Eve. Thanks. Thanks a lot.

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