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Hey, hey, hey. This is Lisa A. And you're listening to who's that Star? On LCC Connect at Lansing Community College. Who's that Star? Is a behind the scenes show where I sit down and talk with the employees at the college. This is an inside look at LCC where you will have a chance to learn about their passions, projects, what inspires them both at work and in their personal lives. I'm your host, Lisa Alexander. I'm so excited to get a chance to talk to all the people who make LCC great. This show is for you to to get to know the people that work at Lansing Community College a little bit more and see what makes them tick. Are you ready? Okay, let's go see who's today's star. Hey, who's that Star? Community I hope everyone is doing well today on who's that Star. My guest is someone that I'm excited to talk to. He's funny and a great colleague. This star is an empowering speaker, accomplished leader, innovation catalyst, and a seasoned educator. He stands at the forefront of personal and professional development. With over 17 years of experience in higher education and nonprofit spaces, this star has dedicated his career to empowering individuals to discover their true purpose and tap into their inherent self worth. His dynamic presentations on leadership and personal transformation have left a tremendous impact on countless lives. He currently serves as an adjunct professor of liberal arts at several colleges and universities and as a financial aid administrator here at Lansing Community College. All right, community, are you ready to learn who's today's star? Drum roll, please. Today's star is DeMarcus battle. Thank you, demarcus, for being on who's that Star?

Absolutely. Lisa, thank you for inviting me. I'm honored to be here and looking forward to this conversation.

Okay. I just wanna let everyone know that DeMarcus is one of my people that makes work fun. I have several people that I go to that if I need a good laugh or smile. DeMarcus is one of those people. So it's really a pleasure for me today to have him on who's that Star? And I'm gonna ask him to tell a little bit about who he is and what's important in his life right now.

Listen, first of all, Lisa's got me blushing over here. She gave that little tidbit and, you know, the sentiment is the same. I love when Lisa comes around. We always have a good laugh. And so thank you for that. Lisa, you know, when you asked the question to, you know, share a little bit about myself and who I am, really I think I consider myself first and foremost a man of faith. So, you know, my relationship with God is foundational for me. It is, you know, how I live my life and everything is the outflow from that. So that would be the first that I'm a man of faith, but I'm also a husband. Been married, coming up on 17 years in April. Got married young, y', all, so. But, yeah, love my wife. And I'm also a father. I take that as something to, you know, really be proud of. And I have three wonderful children. And so at the core, that's who I am. I'm a man of faith. I'm a husband, I'm a father.

All right, yeah. But about your role here at lcc, what do you do?

Well, in a nutshell, I'm a financial aid advisor. And basically what we do is we help students and families to help determine how they're going to fund their educational journey. And so we do that through presentations, we do that through face to face advising, appointments, online engagement, things of that nature. And so really, we serve students and their families. That's the bulk of it, to help them to navigate through this process. Because going through the financial aid process can be challenging, it can be difficult. And we serve in a space where we're able to help calm the anxiety, the fears of students and families on how they're going to actually achieve their dream, which is to earn a degree. So that's what we do.

I think that the whole financial aid department does an excellent job. I get an opportunity to see the presentations that you all do. And I learned so much. Right. Like, and you're right, what you don't know, it can cause fear. It can prevent you from actually trying to reach your goal. And I think that once they meet with a financial aid advisor, some of that stress is alleviated. Right. And you kind of learn about what does a pale mean and what do these things mean? And I just think that sometimes people don't know what they don't know, and you all do a good job of bringing that information to them.

Well, the thing about that, Lisa, is we always say this. Our financial aid advising team specifically is very representative of the students that we serve.

They are.

And so when we are presenting or when we're meeting with students, they can see themselves in us, and that often can ease the anxiety. We're able to talk to families and say, hey, listen, I know where you're at, because I've gone through the same thing. So that's why I love being a part of this team here at lcc, We've done a great job of amassing some great talent to help and to serve these families. But, yeah, we look like our students and we help them through that process.

Yeah, I love that. Well, how did you get started at lcc?

Oh, my goodness. Oh, my goodness. Listen, long story, but I'll make it a little bit short for us here. I was going to another university in Indiana and I played football there. And I came and visited my older sister who was going to Michigan State at the time. And I was just so enamored with the culture and all of what was happening here in Lansing area that I said, you know what? I think I want to move. I think I want to pursue my education here in the Lansing area. And so I didn't get into msu, but there was another opportunity for me, so I enrolled here at lcc.

So you started out as a student?

Yeah, started off as a student. Yep. A transfer student. And although I was young, I was kind of non traditional in the sense that I was already going through the process of marrying my wife and we were starting a family. And so although I was young, I was kind of in that non traditional space. And so, you know, LC was the perfect fit for me and for what I was looking to accomplish. And so I started off as a student, and from there I needed a job.

Right.

And so there was an opportunity for me to get plugged into a work study position. And so that was very helpful to help supplement my financial aid. And I started working in the public service careers office over at West Campus.

Oh, okay.

And so I literally made copies for, you know, the professors there. I did filing in the filing cabinets. I booked appointments and things of that nature. That's where I started. And when I got into that space, I said, you know what? I think I like higher ed. I think I might want to do this as a career. And that was the start. Many years ago.

So when you went to school, what was your. If you don't mind me asking, what was your goal? What was your major? What did you think that you wanted to do?

Okay, so when I was first in school, I wanted to be. This was my dream coming out of high school. I wanted to be a CEO of a Fortune 500 company.

Okay, right. Yeah.

So I'm like, I'm going into business. But then as I kind of navigated through that process for a little bit, I liked business, but I felt like I had a gift for communication.

Right.

And so, you know, looking at some different programs, I Switched over my major into the communications area. Right. And then some other life happenings occurred. And as I stated earlier, I really got grounded into my faith. And so all these things started converging together. And basically using my voice was the path that I wanted to go down to use as a career. And so I combined the thought of getting into higher education through that work study, my gift of communication and being grounded in my faith, and it kind of presented this as an opportunity to serve students. And so that's how it all kind of started. But, yeah, I majored in kind of a multidisciplinary sort of thing.

Right.

Because I had so many different interests, but the bulk of it, the target was communication and serving.

Right. And yeah, and I think that you do that, like in all different aspects of your other career choices, like teaching and, you know, just kind of motivating people to be better. And then in the financial aid space, I think, you know, you're a very good communicator, and I think that you reach your target audience. And I don't know, maybe this is a redundant. But what I'm about to ask you is, like, what is your special contribution? Like something that you think that you do very well. That really makes a difference here at lcc?

Yeah, you know, reflecting on that question, I really, you know, got to thinking about that, like, what is my specialty, my contribution to LCC and really higher education at large? And as I think about it, I think my representation as an African American man, a young man starting off in higher education some years ago, just me being me, I think, brought a lot to the table. Share a quick story with you. As you've mentioned, I teach as well at a number of colleges and universities. But one particular year, earlier on, as an adjunct professor, I went to a college where I was serving. It was in the Metro Detroit area. And I went into the classroom. Now, again, I've mentioned a few times being a young man. Right, right. So I entered into the classroom space and I was in the back of the room just seeing all the students come in and, you know, just talking with different students and whatnot. And then as we got closer to the start of class, I moved my way up to the front to take my position as the instructor, as the teacher. And the students that were there couldn't believe that I was the professor. And it was that moment that I realized that there aren't many of me.

Right. No, you're right.

And so the fact that I was able to be a picture of what could be for those Students changed everything for me. I needed to be in that space. And so as a professor, that's very relevant. But not only that, but as a financial aid advisor, someone to talk to students and to show them that I've been where they are currently at and where they're going and to be that representation for them, I think that makes a huge sense difference here on campus.

No, and I agree with you, DeMarcus, because I think that sometimes just understanding how people are communicating, right, because they come from a similar background or there are some cultural things that might align that a person may look at you and have the opportunity, like, wow, I'm a try. I may talk to this person because everybody else, I haven't felt comfortable with, or I don't think that they may understand my story or my plight or what's going on. And I do think that sometimes being an African American, I say black male, that's just showing that there's a way to do it.

Yeah.

There's a way to be successful. It doesn't always gotta look the same, but it can be done because they see you and they know that somehow DeMarcus got there. Right. And I can do that. And so I do. I think that. I think that is a wonderful contribution. And I think, you know, I know you got way a lot of other things too, but that one, that resonates with me though, because.

Absolutely.

It makes a big difference that sometimes people don't always pay attention to. Right. Seeing somebody that look like me, seeing somebody that had my past or similar past, or I think they might have that past, I still might make change where someone else may not.

Absolutely.

So what's life for you outside of working at lcc? Like.

Yeah, well, again, you know, I keep kind of circling back, but it goes back to my core. And being a person of faith, I'm really connected into my local place of worship. House of worship, you can say it that way. So I love to serve in that environment and that atmosphere. I love working with young people. And so my children, I've been their coach pretty much all throughout their adolescent years. You know, I got an eighth grader now, and this is like really the first year that I have not been their coach.

What sports is it sports or coaching life?

Yep, sports.

Well, I know you coach in my life.

Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, you know, football, basketball, soccer. So I've been involved in all of those things. And so I find great joy in that. And really it all goes back again to my purpose. Helping others to walk in their purpose. And to find their destiny. And so coaching is an aspect of that.

Right.

You know, it's not so much about the sport, it's about motivating them to, you know, face the challenges and to overcome. And it's the same thing in the higher ed space. And so, you know, when I'm not here, I'm pretty much involved in that. And I see my. Myself as a family man. I love spending time with my family, just laughing and joking and, you know, messing around at the house and, you know, so I take great pride and joy in spending time with my wife and my children.

I know. You said your sister went to Michigan State. Where are you originally from?

Okay, so I am from Ypsilanti. Okay. Ipsy. Yeah.

Yeah.

So I'm from there, but then I went away to Indiana at a small, you know, liberal arts college there, and then end up circling back here to Michigan. So, yeah, that's where I'm from originally.

So you're a native Michigander.

That's right.

And then went to Indiana and then came back, saw how we do it at msu, and was like, yeah, so

can I take a little. I call it a boondoggle. Let me just share this because this kind of speaks again to hyen. Him and my story. So we talk about representation, right? So when I was in middle school, I went to a program called King Chavez Parks. Oh, yeah. Cp See, we know what we talking about here. So the one I went to was in Ypsilantia, Eastern Michigan.

Oh, yeah.

And so there were students from Detroit, from Ypsilanti, Ann Arbor, from Lansing.

I know. I used to be the coordinator of that program at the Lansing School District for a couple years.

So this is gonna. You're gonna love this. At this program, we met students that were from the Lansing area that would eventually go to either Sexton or Everett or Eastern or what? And so there were some students there that I met, one particular young lady and really nice young lady. So, you know, we became friends, kept in touch over the years. Right. We went away to college, different places. I went to Indiana, she went to Michigan State. And when I moved back to Michigan, I ran into this person that I met in seventh grade at my church. And I'm like, hey, I know you, right? And so that person became my wife.

No way. Oh, wow. How cool.

So I've known my wife since seventh grade, and we met in an educational setting for minority students trying to find purpose.

Okay. My next question is, like, what's the first thing you do after getting home from work?

Eat something. No. Probably the first thing I do is look for my kids, if they got home from school, ask them about their day. Hey, what's going on? How was things today? That's probably the first thing. And then the second thing is really, to be honest, change into some lounge clothes, get comfortable. Yeah.

Like, do you. Is your routine. Like, do you have. Okay, I'm gonna do all my chores or do you just come home and just like, oh, I'm gonna chillax for a second. Cause communicating people don't realize, take a lot of energy out of it.

Oh, yeah. You know, by the time you get to 5 o', clock, 5:30, by the time you walk through the door, you're spent. So, you know, it depends on what day it on. The way that we have it outlined at the Battle House is that Thursday and Friday are my dinner days that you cook. Yeah. So I'm on the hook then.

Okay, Mrs. Maddow. I love that.

So that might be the first thing after I've kind of greeted everyone. I'm probably getting dinner together on those particular days.

Cause now you think you a cook, right?

I am a griller.

A griller?

Yeah.

Okay, so you think you a expert griller?

Yes.

But then you just, you can manage yourself around the kitchen.

I can manage my way around in the kitchen. The few protein items.

Okay, so what is your go to meal? Like, if I asked your children and I was like, what's your daddy? What can he cook? Good. What would they tell me?

Okay, probably two things right off of the bat. Burgers. I'm doing that. And then wings with all different flavors. Yes.

Okay.

Yeah. That's how we getting done.

Okay. I like that though. And I would be glad to take any type of sample of the burgers or the wings. I particularly love garlic parmesan wings.

Okay.

Lemon pepper wings, just to throw that out there, you know, I just wanna make sure. But that's cool. I like the division of labor and you know, what your strengths are, so.

That's right.

You know, what you bring to the table. What was your first job, DeMarcus?

Oh, goodness. My first job was I was a dishwasher at a Coney island back home in Ipsy. Okay. My high school football coach, he had a connection at this particular Coney Island. And, you know, I expressed like, I need a job, man. You know? And so they got me a little dishwasher job there. And then eventually I ended up moving to like an assistant line cooking. So I was. So I can cook a little bit.

Right.

But breakfast Items, things of that nature. And real quick, 32nd funny story. And so we would be able to kind of cook our own, you know, lunch break. Our own meal for lunch.

Oh, yeah, that would work great.

So here I am. Got this large, you know, flat top grill that, you know, we're cooking omelettes and all sorts of things. So I call myself, getting ready to make a mondo omelet. A big old giant, everything in it. And I cracked maybe four or five eggs. And the owner came to me and said, what are you doing? Are you crazy? And that was kind of like the first time that I learned how important the margins are, you know, and not. Not being wasteful, neglectful, and having my stomach be bigger. You know, eyes, beauty, stomach in my stomach. There we go. Yeah, yeah. And so I learned a lot in that moment. And so I carried that experience with me and every other job that, you know, I gained something from in my early, early years.

Well, yeah, I mean, I think that's a good lesson. It taught you, you know, you need to know your surroundings, like what's going on and what the rules are. So what do you consider yourself? Cause this is an interesting question to me, because sometimes you think you know, but you don't. Do you think you're an introvert or an ext.

Oh, I'm an extrovert.

Okay.

I'm an extrovert. Another, you know, this is a good conversation. So a couple years back, the financial aid department did a retreat. Okay. And so we went off campus to another location, and it was a really great event. And we all did the disc personality assessment.

I love those.

Yeah, yeah. So we did that, and we got our results back. And I was not only an I for influential, and that kind of correlates to being extroverted, but I was a high I. And if you think of a quadrant, four quadrants and whatnot, I was way off in the corner by myself in the highest possible range of being an I. And the funny thing about it was everybody on the team agreed and affirmed that that was me, you know, And I knew it was me even before I went through the whole personality assessment. I knew where I was gonna land. Cause I've always been, you know, willing to. To have conversation, to walk into a room, and if there's all new people, let's say a networking event, I'm gonna break the ice. I'm probably gonna be the person to start talking. And I just think that's a gift that I have. But I will say this can be seasonal too. Yeah. Cause sometimes when you're in a different place in your life, you might be a little bit more introverted. And sometimes it just calls for a different kind of personality trait in different seasons and in different arenas. But as a whole, I would probably say that I'm extroverted.

Yeah. I think that, like some of the nature of our role and our job, I think it makes us have to be extroverted. For me, I found that I'm extroverted, but I have a lot of introverted tendencies. So when I'm at work, I'm talking, I'm gregarious walking around, but when I go home, I gotta replenish my, you know, my bucket. And so a lot of times I'm quiet or I just wanna play on a game or I want to listen to my Reddit. Cause I love Reddit and I watch, you know, listen to things or maybe a book, but I don't wanna talk to nobody else. Right.

Yeah.

And that's hard. Sometime when you have a family or you have a partner or other obligations and you come from a job like us, where we. We're talking, that's how we make our money, how we get people to understand. And then you gotta come home and

give to your family. Yeah.

And so if I would say that you are a true extrovert because you still able to manage that energy and that spirit and sometimes I don't always have that.

No, I agree with you. What happens when everyone expects you to be that, but you need to kind of be introverted for a time. Yeah, you gotta. And sometimes. Yeah, sometimes I feel that it can be unfair because they're always looking for you to be the one to speak or be the one to get things started. And sometimes I just want to be chill.

Sitting in the background.

Yeah, in the background sometimes. And so there's a balance. But I think your gift is unavoidable.

I know we talked about one of your hobbies is grilling, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

What's others.

Other hobbies. Okay. So what I like to do, to be honest, I still play video games a little bit, you know, and my son, who considers himself a gamer.

Right.

And I want to support that. And for those that are listening, that is an educational field.

Oh, yeah.

You know, we took him to a college here in Michigan where they have that as a program. So we're trying to support his passion. Right. But back to myself. Yeah. I like to unwind a little bit and play some games. I've always done that. And that's kind of my Space barbecuing, as you mentioned, that was really a thing I liked. Well, I don't know if I like this, but it is a space for me to just think. Cutting the grass. Yeah. Especially in the summertime and the breeze is going. I'm just cutting the grass. And I'm just thinking.

Give you a good time to process.

Yeah, process. Thinking about my life, thinking about my family, thinking about my future, thinking about positive things. You know, I like to do that sometimes as well.

Well, our time is almost up and it's like, it's so easy to talk with you. I know we could probably keep going, but I wanted to ask you before we close out, now that I know where you're from, this is an interesting question for me now, because I didn't real. I thought you were. I didn't know where you were from, actually. So I was like, what, do you go green or go blue?

Okay, so I shared where I'm from.

Right. That's what I'm saying. It makes a difference. But then I heard the previous part.

So my allegiance is where I'm from. So I'm go blue.

Oh, wait, I wasn't expecting that. And I'm really quite shocked.

I'm go blue, you know, and so this term, Walmart Wolverine, I don't like that term. Okay. I didn't go to University of Michigan. But what I will say is my mother worked at U of M. My grandmother retired. She was a janitor at U of M. And so I have memories of going up there as a kid. Yeah. You know, so I've spent time on camp.

We ain't talking about you. You ain't Walmart. What we saying is, people, this is me. This ain't lcc. This is Lisa. Okay? But what I'm saying is, just like you, I'm from Lansing and Michigan State. My mom worked there. All my substitute teachers came from in Atlanta. They came from Michigan State.

That's right.

That's my line. That's who I'm aligned with. I'm going for them. You from Ipsy. They right there.

Right there.

You supposed to be for them.

That's right.

But I was kind of. You kind of fooled me because you like, oh, I went and visit my sister. So your sister came to Michigan State? She did, kid. Smart lady. And. But you just got tainted. You couldn't help it. No, you are from there. You gonna be down with them. That's right. So I get it. I mean, I'm not happy about it

till the end of time, but I.

But I. I didn't know you was. Oh, okay. I'm shocked. Let me get off of here, y', all, before we have a whole another conversation. But DeMarcus, I I'm glad that you came on who's at the Star? Thank you for taking time out of your schedule. Maybe you can come back and talk to us again.

Yeah, I'd love to. This was great, Lisa. Thank you for the invitation and just, again, just thankful and glad that I was able to come and do this.

We were glad to have you and who's that Star? Audience until next time you've been listening to who's that Star? I'm Lisa A. And you can listen to this episode of who's that Star? And other shows from LCC Connect anytime online@lccconnect.org thank you for listening. Catch me next time to find out who's that Star?

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My name is Dale Paszynski, I'm 19 years old and this is how I live United. I've always been kind of a computer geek, and I found a way to use those skills to help the homeless in my community. For people facing hard times, computer skills and a basic resume are so important. It may seem like a small thing, but it makes a huge difference in people's lives. So with United Way, I created a program where I work with the homeless. Together. We go through their whole job history, write a resume, and then save a on the very own USB drive. We provide workbooks and training certificates. I even budgeted for cupcakes so we can celebrate as a class. When one of our people gets a job, that's huge. When somebody says, hey, man, that job that you helped me apply for, I got it. That's what Living United feels like to me. My name is Dale Paszinski. I help people achieve financial independence. So I don't just wear the shirt. I live it.

Give, advocate, educate, volunteer. Live united. Go to liveunited.org brought to you by United Way and the Ed Council.

By utilizing interactive activities, the Youth summer camp at LCC gives kids in grades two through 12 the chance to explore science, technology, engineering, arts and mathematics. Scholarship opportunities are available. Details can be found@LCC.edu seriousfun LCC connect

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welcome to a psycho delicious conversation on mental health issues and trends from two local mental health professionals in the greater Lansing area. I'm Michael Stratton, lmsw.

And I'm Morgan Bowen, dnp, pmhnp. And we're here to provide you with a deep dive into the human experience of consciousness and beyond. Our aim is to be educational and entertaining. So just kick back and open your ears and your minds.

Hey, I'm Mike Stratton.

And I'm Morgan Bowen.

We are here to talk about codependency. That's true.

Need help with that?

I kind of tripped over that. It's a block in some way. Yeah. This is part two of our conversation and initially it was just, we're going to continue to talk about codependency, but I think we did a lot in the first section and maybe talk about. Because your joke was there's no treatment. There's no treatment. There's no. Well, weirdly, it's not a diagnosis. So I think that there hasn't been that focus on it. But there really is treatment. There is. Once people start to address it, there are things to look at and I'll just off the top of my head and you jump in, Morgan. But off the top of my head, I think it's, number one, helping them with the awareness of it. So to see it and to see where it's showing up, up. And then number two of getting their level of motivation of what they want to do about that, working on self esteem and then working on how to address conflict, which would include kind of assertiveness training and then also setting up boundaries. How do I set up boundaries for myself and noticing what's happening in the whole process of that? So I think that we could cover those areas in this section. What do you think? What would you add or take out?

No, I think That's a good dynamic, good pattern, good evolution of. I think the awareness piece. Cultivating awareness is probably one of the most difficult things. I mean, that would be the beginning. As we established in our first discussion, defining codependence is difficult. And if somebody has never been exposed to the. The concept of codependence and they come into therapy or treatment thinking that it's everybody else's fault, that if this person did change, then my problems would be solved. So trying to get the person firmly planted in the. What can we do about your situation outside of. Independent of nothing to do with these other people that you're talking about. This has to do with you.

Yeah.

And that is a big frame switch.

Yeah. I do a fair amount of personal disclosure on this, and I was debating whether to do it or not, and I thought, you know, actually, I think I already wrote this in the book, so it's already out there, it's already disclosed. But yeah. For a period of time, my wife and I were married and we lived in two separate dwellings. I lived in a condo. She had a house downtown. And that was working out just fine with me. And. And people would say, occasionally, they'd say, boy, that seems unusual. And then other people would say, that sounds ideal. But I was in therapy at this time with the same therapist I have now, and I was talking about my wife. And inevitably it was some kind of a complaint. And she simply phrased it in a way she framed it that brought up my awareness. She said, mike, what do you think would happen? What would open up. This is how she put it. What would open up for you? You, if you stopped trying to fix Kathy. And number one, I didn't realize that is what I'd been trying to do. I didn't know. So I felt nailed by that of like, that's kind of a messed up way to be in a relationship. And then number two, what opened up was the possibility of, hey, let's buy a place together that we both like. And we moved in together and it was great. It's been great, you know, so that's what opened up. But the awareness of learning, like, oh, my God, is this really my pattern? Is this really what I'm doing? And in a way that was impacting me enough to make a difference.

I had similar experience. I'm married to my husband. We've been together for. Oh, my God. He would understand that. I don't remember exactly how long we've

been together for, but he would probably meet his birthday.

We were 29 when we met each other. So, 15. We've been together 15. Nope. 17 years.

19.

So we were living in Chicago. We moved to Michigan, and the move was. Was very hard for him. And so, you know, he grew up in Chicago. He'd lived in Chicago his whole life. So he was very depressed when we moved. And so, you know, I was like, oh, this is a good thing. We, you know, and it was my mission to, you know, solve the problem for him, for, you know, you need to meet people. You need to get involved in something. You need to do, you know, like, you need to find a therapist. You need. You know, I was just like, here are the things that you need to do to. To help yourself. And he did not want to do any of those things. And then I'm getting increasingly, you know, po that he's not helping himself. So then I. I'm upping the game. Okay, well, then these are the things that you need to do. And so it just set up this dynamic of he would get frustrated with me, and I was getting frustrated with him, and. And I was like, at my wit's end, you know, I'm like, I want to do this stuff. I see this as an exciting thing. I'm ready for the next part of my life. And you are, you know, you are dragging me down because you're not, you know, you're not doing what I think you should be doing. And so we ended up in therapy. We ended up in couples therapy. And there was a revelation for me at that time that it is not. And that was facilitated by the therapist. I mean, it wasn't like I independently came to this, but it was like, it's not your job to fix your partner. He has his own process, and he needs to go through his own process. And in fact, you're trying to fix him is like, compounding the issue here. And you are stuck in a dynamic that, if it goes further, is going to unravel the relationship. That became clear to me at some point, and. And I wanted to remain in the relationship. I loved him. I still love him. And so that commitment required me to look at things in a very different way.

See, this is why we go to therapy, to learn about therapy, to learn about.

Yeah.

And to learn about things about ourselves that we're blind to, that we don't see, that we cannot see clearly, that someone else can see so clearly, and that we just take as well. This is the way it is. I mean, once you've got that and you've had that revelation, and then you've Made a decision, okay, I'm going to change in some ways and see if things can open up in a different way. The ability to kind of both honor your own sense of what it is that you need and to be aware of that which is going to necessarily put you in some degree of conflict with the other person. And then how do you handle conflict, I think is the next step. This is really simplistic, but I'm going to break it down because. Because, you know, we don't have hours and hours to do this, but the.

Well, technically we do. We just. Okay, now welcome to a psycho delicious co dependency.

Or we could just have another podcast.

We could have a codependent codependency.

Mike and Morgan are codependent anyway.

So really simple. I mean, assertiveness training is one way to get that across and to deal in a relationship where if you're codependent, the idea is like, the other person's always getting their way, but you're not getting your way. And so that is kind of like, you're okay, I'm not okay. So there was that book back in the 70s, I'm okay, you're okay. And that was a definition of what assertiveness is. How do you go from you're okay, I'm not okay. I need to give up everything. I want to help you. The you're not okay, and I'm not okay is a passive aggressive style. You're okay, I'm not okay is a passive style. I'm okay, you're not okay is an aggressive style. But we're both okay. We're both okay. If you can find a way to align yourself so that you're on the same side of the problem, you know, I think let's be on the same side of this. This is happening. It's upsetting to me. I'm not sure you see it or not. Does it make a difference to you when I express to you that it's upsetting to me and maybe I can live with it? Maybe there's something you can do about it? I don't know. How difficult is that for you? Just to be able to express that to someone and start to get it out is sometimes a huge leap. When I used to do a lot of couples work, which I don't much anymore because really hard.

You got worn out.

Fair enough.

But it would be.

They would act like you'd almost have to. When I would. Sometimes I would give them the words. I would say, okay, I'm going to be your puppet master for A while. I want you just to look at each other and say these words to each other and see how it feels. And I would help them express it, because when I would say, can you tell them how you feel about this? It would be like, will you speak Greek to that person? They wouldn't have to.

It.

They wouldn't have it available to them. It just would be like a. There was no neural pathways lined up of how would I express my needs to someone who's important to me.

And communication styles is another huge thing in relationships. So if somebody is more. Not necessarily passive, but tends to be more quiet and another person is really the more domineering in the conversation, you

guys are just hitting home with me on everything,

you know, so, you know, to have the person take a step, you know, the person that tends to be domineering, take a step back and then cultivate, you know, bolster the voice or, you know, the message of the person that, you know, I don't want to say timid, but just is less expressive. Expressive, prominent. I was thinking domineering, but I don't want to keep using that word.

So.

Yeah, so Cuba, you know, and that was one of the big things that we learned in therapy. My husband and I was, you know, the communication patterns were not lining up here too, you know, because in a situation that I feel strongly about, I can wax poetic for hours and hours and hours and really just, you know, kind of run over. And John, my husband, tends to be more quiet. You know, he's more of a strong, silent type.

And

I think my therapist told me to shut up a few times,

Let John talk. I think my fear is that John and Kathy will probably listen to this episode at some point.

I mean, you notice I'm kind of quiet here.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think most of the time I've ended up in relationships, I end up being the one that I feel like. But as you guys are talking, I can see points where. Where I've been trying to change somebody else. But most of the time, I feel like I ended up being the one who's always

being changed, the target of potential change.

I don't know what to do in that situation because I feel good with who I am,

and I'm going back to the family of origin stuff. The idea that often when people develop these styles, it comes out of a family where it was difficult to get your needs met. It was difficult to feel worthy and lovable and all of those kinds of things. And so I think a lot of times people will Come out of those families with this real strong hunger of I need to finally be fully and completely loved. Which is kind of a myth. Because you're not going to find that. I mean, you're going to find other people that match up with you to a great extent, but they'll be different than you in. In certain ways, you know, that you're just gonna be frustrated or struggling with things and have different expectations. Yeah, it's a dark thing to say. That was dark.

There's no love. When we do evolve in relationships, you know, relationships should change us in some way. You know, it should, you know, show us the. Because there are personality traits or qualities that are barriers to intimacy or to a relationship. Communication can be one of them, or things that can be worked on in service to the relationship. The relationship itself is an entity that you have to put work into. So I always think about it like, there's your stuff, there's my stuff, and then there's relationship stuff. And when you have. Have your stuff, my stuff, and relationship stuff all jumbled together and there's stress and there's problems. I mean, it's kind of a. It's a hot mess. And so to be able to parse that out and understand what's going on, that's triggering me. My stuff that's preventing us from being able to connect in a together stuff kind of realm. Sometimes it's good to break that down into just some buckets.

It's almost like an equation too, that vulnerability leads to intimacy. So people will often discuss with me, I want to have a discussion either with my partner or even with a friend. And what I'll say is, lead with your fears. What's keeping you from having this conversation? I'm afraid they're going to reject me, or I'm afraid that they'll be mad at me or. Or I'm afraid it'll hurt the relationship or the relationship will break up. And I say, well, what would it be like for you to have a conversation with them where you talked about that first? Like, I got some things I want to talk about, but I'm also afraid that if I talked about them, you're going to think differently about me. That you're going to. It might be the end of our relationship or something like that. So when people lead with their fears, they're being vulnerable. And usually the person will then be a lot more open to it. Like, no, I don't. I don't think there's anything you could say that would break up our friendship or Our relationship. So unless you know what. What? Well, wait a minute. What are you telling me? You know, maybe, maybe, maybe it is. But usually they're. Once they hear like, it kind of bothers me when you're snoring at night, you know, for instance. Yeah, that kind of thing. It's like, oh, well, it's not that big a deal. You know, they're ready for something that could break up the relationship. And then they're like kind of, it's like, oh, that's not nearly as bad as I thought it was going to be. But I think we should also talk about boundaries, don't you? Do you have a definition of boundaries?

Holy moly.

Or I do.

I would love to. So what I think of with boundaries. So I did. You know there is a group, a 12 step group called Co Dependence Anonymous. I guess we should probably say that I have myself gone to a Co Dependence Anonymous meeting, just one with three friends, which I always think is very funny because that is incredibly codependent.

Was this an intervention?

We were living in Chicago and it was a very tense and conflicted and new, like complicated roommate situation. And it's a long story. We can get, we can explore that in our codependency podcast. But you know, so we went to this coda meeting together and one of the speakers, one of the, one of the people in the meeting said, I didn't know what a boundary was until I came to this meeting. I wouldn't know what a boundary was if they hit it.

Interesting.

I'll be honest with you. I really don't. And it's not to say that I don't understand the concept, but I haven't had too many relationships where I go, this is my boundary.

Well, this is the thing that it's happened in my, in my relationships too. In my current relationship. You know, it was like we shouldn't have any boundaries. We should, you know, we should know everything about each other. We should be involved in everything that the other person is doing. We should have no, no barriers or boundaries or whatever. And that it was never been my concept of a relationship. So, you know, and I think that's a big thing when you get into a relationship really to discuss, you know, at some point, what, what does a relationship mean to you? What does a relationship look like for you? Because some people do just have this concept of sort of, I don't know, just open.

Well, in a relationship. I mean, it's one of the first boundaries I think people explore is like, are we dating other people or Is this going to be exclusive? Are you going to be seeing other people while we're doing this? And if you are, in what kind of context is it okay to do that? Is it not okay to do that?

That's what I think of as boundaries. Something that's okay or not okay. So, you know, and there's certainly some things about safety and consent and things like that that are very important to discuss and more of, like an intimate and sexual relationship. But there's similar types of things as you progress more into relationship territory. And boundaries may change over time. Maybe I'm not comfortable opening up about something, a thing that happened in my life or in my past at a certain point in a relationship, but as we progress, it does become open, or I'm more open to the idea doing that, even.

The conversation we're having today is. I don't think we could have had this conversation when we first started doing this podcast because we know each other better in a way, and that we. Yeah, the vulnerability and the intimacy, all that kind of stuff.

It's the same thing that would happen in a therapy session. Really.

Oh, yeah.

I know that I became more open when I was in therapy. That compared to the very first time, I was kind of closed off.

Oh. Oh, man. Yeah. Yeah.

Guarded.

So one metaphor I use. So I have a kind of a definition of boundaries is just a. It's a statement of who's going to participate in your life in what way, that having clarity about that, that. And the metaphor that I use is in your home, there are people that are going to come to your front door that you're not going to let in. Clearly. And then there are people that you might let in and stand in the front hallway and talk to. And there are people you might invite to come in and sit down in the living room, but you don't want them going upstairs. And there are other people that they have full access to the whole house. You don't care.

And.

And you are making distinctions and decisions based on how comfortable you are with those people and how safe those people feel to you, all of that. And you need that. You need that sense. So when you don't have boundaries, when you don't have it, anybody can walk in and do anything that they want. And I've met people who fit that kind of category, and they end up being victimized very often because they let unsafe people do whatever unsafe practices they want to do with them. So that's one case. The other metaphor I use is the room. The room we're in right now. It's got floors, ceiling. It's got walls, it's got a door,

it's got padding, padding.

It's got a window.

Sound reinforcement.

Just so people understand. Door locks. It unlocks. We can keep out who we need to keep. We can let in who we want. So that's another kind of a metaphor for that of how do I want people to participate in my life or not?

And in a relationship, as the relationship becomes a committed marriage type of relationship or long term partnership, things do become very blurred because you frequently live together. Except Mike.

No, now we do.

Now we do. Let's be clear.

Just a little joke.

I'm not touchy about it at all.

So boundaries become blurred. Can I use your toothbrush? Do we have the same soap? Do we have different, you know, for guy. Guy relationships? Do we share underwear? Not, you know,

these are things I

have not thought about. That's not just, that's just not engaged relationships.

Oh, Mike has thought about it, you

know, but it goes back to the. My stuff, your stuff, our stuff. Because there's certain things like, you know, that parts of my life that don't necessarily directly involve, you know, my husband. They're things that I'm doing for my own personal development, you know, career types of things. I went back to school, you know, I was making decisions. And again, partners. Couples therapy is. I was always really good at making, you know, decisions on my own. It's harder to invite. It's harder for me to invite somebody into that decision making process and including them in that. But with the understanding that this is kind of my thing. I want you to be part of it, but this is my thing and you have your own things. I mean. John is currently putting together greens for. He's involved in the Lansing Garden Club. He's the youngest, one of the only male members of the Lansing Garden Club. That's his thing. He loves it. That's one of the groups that he belongs to. That's part of his life that certainly I'm involved. I go, I'm gonna go tomorrow. I'm gonna probably spend several hundred dollars on greens that they made and support and also. Cause I like that stuff. But he has things, I have things, and then we have things together. Same with friendships. I think that's a really important thing. I have friends that I had before I ever met Joe. John.

Right.

John is friends with them, but they're really my friends. You know, it's. I bring the friends to the relationship and he does too. One of the things that I always find so strange is when you hang out with couples and it's like they're like the same person. I mean, they. They finish each other's sentences. They're always together. Everything is a we thing. They present this just very united front. Now, some people may say that that's such a, you know, close and tight and, you know, great relationship. I see it as dysfunctional. I see that as dysfunctional. I mean, not necessarily in a judgmental way, but that's not my. That's not my concept of a relationship.

No, it would be. It would be hard for you to be in that kind of relationship. All right, so in summary, codependency seems to be a natural thing. It gets worse. Given the amount of. Of kind of pathology that you come from, the more rigid the home life is in a way that is. That could be dysfunctional. I'm nervous using those terms because it's kind of like pathologizing things versus correct.

And everybody's relationship is different. And the level of codependence does not necessarily have to be pathologizing. It. It becomes a problem when it becomes a problem for one or both of the people in the relationship.

Right. It's an adaptation. And when you apply it to a different relationship, it's like, oh, maybe this isn't working for me.

I think. I think in the first episode, you guys hit the nail on the head when you said resentment. When resentment comes into it, then you're pretty much going, something needs to be fixed. Right?

Yeah, right. Right. That's a. That's.

Or if you wake up thinking about the person, what they should be doing to fix themselves, change their life, why it is that they're causing a bunch of problems for you, and you're going to bed thinking about why that person is causing all these problems for you, and if they only change, things would be better.

So not everybody can afford therapy. So I'd say, do you guys have a book that you would absolutely recommend to somebody who wants to learn more

about Codependent No More, I think is what I would recommend is the best place to start. It's very relatable. There's a huge amount of examples for, you know, that Melody Beatty provides from a long career. She has a couple counselor. And a lot of it comes again from like a substance use recovery or dynamic point of view. But there's a lot in there that. I mean, all of it is very relatable to any relationship.

A psychodelicious conversation is meant for educational and entertainment purposes only. It is no substitute for therapy and should not be treated as such. If you feel a need for real therapy, you should consult your local provider, Google Therapy or therapists in your area. Check with community mental Health or a suicide hotline if you are feeling suicidal.

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