00:00:07 Speaker 1: There are moments when the world feels thin. As if what we call reality is only one layer of a much larger conversation between breath and silence, between life and whatever comes next. Tonight we enter that in-between space where death is not an ending.

00:00:27 Speaker 1: welcome to our Room a space for subtle awareness, intuitive knowing and conversations that move beyond the visible. I'm your host and today I am joined by Michael Waters. Together we will explore life after death, the role of the psychopomp and how animism and shamanic traditions understand consciousness as alive, relational, and ongoing. This is an episode for those who sense there is more and are willing to sit with the mystery. So welcome to our room, Michael. It's an honor to have you here today.

00:01:04 Speaker 2: Thank you.

00:01:06 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'm really curious about this, uh, conversation that we will be having today, and I. Yeah, I can't wait to learn more about the life after death from you. So without wasting any time, let's start. Um, Michael, before we speak about death or spirit worlds, I'm curious, what was your earliest experience that made you feel the world was alive in ways most people don't talk about?

00:01:35 Speaker 2: Well, uh, that's a good question. Uh, I guess how I felt the world was was really alive is when the Native American spirits in our backyard began to make contact with us. Then I realized, uh, you know, I had always thought that I had always believed in God and and and thought that there was something else out there. Uh, because the universe is a very, very big place. And I thought for sure that there was probably some other life forms that we weren't aware of. And so when the Native American spirits started to make contact with us, and they introduced us to psychopomp work, which is helping people cross into the light, uh, that are what we call lost spirits. They didn't cross into the light after they passed away like they were supposed to. They they just kind of stayed here on the earthly plane, kind of in an in-between state. Uh, then I really realized that because of animism, the the idea that everything has has a soul really made me change my outlook of the entire universe. Really.

00:02:52 Speaker 1: That that sense of aliveness of, you know, being addressed by the world rather than standing apart from it, feels like a doorway into everything we are about to explore. So how was that experience for you, Michael? Like when it first happened? Uh, did you feel scared? Was it scary or was it, um, kind of enlightening for you?

00:03:17 Speaker 2: Well, it was both, actually. Um, when I began to awaken, it was. It was first my wife, she began to have lucid dreams where Native American spirits would come to her and tell her that they did not want her to move, because we were thinking about moving to a warmer climate at that time because our house, our kids had moved out of the house. And so she began to tell me, uh, this and the Native American spirits that came to her in her dreams told her that they wanted to teach her how to do psychopomp work or helping spirits cross into the light. Then eventually, I discovered that I could do that work to the Native American spirits also suggested that we study shamanism. And so we we did study shamanism, and I learned how to do shamanic journeys. And I wasn't really a psychic person like my wife was. So I wasn't able to get the same kind of dreams that she did. But I did go through, uh, shamanic travels. Uh, which is it? It introduces you into shamanic, uh, I guess I should say, uh, an alternate reality or a non non-real reality. And um, I was able to experience a lot of what is on the other side through doing that. And then we both worked together at this, in this psychopomp work to help cross spirits into light. And it was it was very amazing. It was almost very surreal. Uh, it didn't really seem like something that you could do, but we did do it. And I guess at the time, we didn't really think that much about it. We just did it. And later on then we started to study about it, uh, which is a little bit backwards from most people. Usually they study something, read about it, learn, and then they practice it. But we kind of went the other way around. We experienced it first, and then we became so interested in what we were doing that we started to learn about it and study about it.

00:05:30 Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, I can only imagine how surreal that must have felt like. And, uh, yeah, I can see how it's a bit of both scary and enlightening. But, uh, yeah, I'm glad that it happened, because it has brought you here, and now you can let us all, you know, understand it better. Um, so, Michael, many people think conversations about life after death are either belief based or fear driven. But I'm curious, what do you think we fundamentally misunderstand about death itself?

00:06:04 Speaker 2: Well, there's huge misunderstandings in your culture. Not as much as Western society. Western society. Uh, really, I mean, they completely have it backwards. They don't believe in in reincarnation, which is a keystone to how the universe works. And especially the earthly plane that we're living on. You know, we I think that Earth is, is just a big school, and every time we come back in every carnation we try to work on maybe whatever we didn't learn in the in the last life, or we possibly choose new things to learn. And every time that we transition into the light, we get to reevaluate our life. We get to decide how we are going to improve ourselves in the next life. And we we just keep improving and improving. And if we don't improve, then we have to go back and we have to redo that lesson again. Just like school. Just like repeating. Let's say first grade, second grade, whatever grade that you're in.

00:07:16 Speaker 1: And I think that's that's so reassuring as well, you know, to know that you have more than one chance to make it right. Because I think that's a beautiful concept. Uh, so. So instead of death as an abrupt stop, you're pointing toward it as a transition. One that asks for. Yeah, one that asks for relationship rather than certainty. And that reframes everything. Let's let's stay with that for a moment, Michael. Um, across animism and shamanic traditions doesn't, uh, I mean, death isn't isolated from life. Uh, what deeper worldview allows these cultures to hold death with less fear?

00:08:02 Speaker 2: Uh, I think that I would say one thing that really changed for me. I had always, like I say, believed in God. I actually studied to be a Catholic priest for two years. And so I had been thinking about religion for quite some time, even though I didn't decide to be a Catholic priest. Uh, eventually I, I did have a strong faith based life. I tried to be a good person. I tried to do what Jesus or God would want me to do. Um, and of course, we don't have. I mean, other than the the Bible, we don't really have, uh, a direct line to, to get information. Uh, and so the shamanic journeying was, was very helpful to me. I was able to have a lot of questions asked about, um, what is right, what is wrong, uh, and especially when it comes to crossing spirits into the light or helping them. We didn't actually we weren't the persons that that actually crossed them into light. That was the person who had passed away, the dead person. And it it was it was them who who initiated this. We just helped them to do that. Uh, and so what what I want to say is that. It was very gratifying to see that these people could see people. We would bring them to light. That was one of the techniques we used. We would we would help them to go to this light and look inside, because a lot of people didn't think that they had anybody on the other side. And lo and behold, when they were there, there were thousands of people actually on the other side, not even from from this lifetime. You know, that they recognized because when you're dead, you're your senses are far more opened. And so you're able to see your other incarnations as, as well as your, your current carnation that you had just passed away from, that you transitioned from. And many of these people beckon these people into the light, even though they didn't think that they had anybody. So it was very gratifying to see that actually take place, that no one is alone while they're living. And when you go into the light of God, you are. It's like joining your family again. Uh, even even family that is passed away or in this space for sure passed away. And they are in the light already, and they're their only agenda is to have that person come into the light with them when they were like they were supposed to in the beginning. And one thing that I should say is there was usually two reasons why people did not go into the light like they should have. And one was guilt. Uh, they either thought that they weren't worthy because of something that they did some crime, some, uh, some horrible thing that they did to humanity, or they wanted to stay by someone's side that was still living. Let's say a child or a spouse or or someone that they cared about deeply. And so they did not go into the light. But unfortunately, when you do that, you don't really have any power to help that person. You're just a quiet, non-scene bystander. And so you don't really have any power until you until you transition all the way into the light. So that was one of the techniques that we used to. Besides seeing the people on the other side of the light, we would explain to them if they really loved and cared about that person, that they would go into the light because that's where they would have the power to actually have a difference in that person's life, and having a power and energy and vibration to actually improve that person's life that they cared so much about.

00:12:08 Speaker 1: It's all so fascinating, and it really puts things into perspective. And I can I can only imagine how overwhelming that experience must have been for you. And it must have felt like that, uh, you know, universe has given you another chance. Uh, and, you know, another perspective on life, on how much more there is to life. And what I hear is a pattern of belonging where humans, spirits, ancestors, land and time are in constant conversation, not separated into categories. So yeah, thank you for sharing that, Michael. And now I'm. And now I'm curious how this shows up practically, uh, in your work as a psychopomp, what tends to happen when souls or even the living are stuck between worlds?

00:13:03 Speaker 2: Well, what happens is, uh, the first most interesting thing is it doesn't seem to be any time on the other side, because we used to cross people over that were ancient. Some of them were, you know, cave people almost, You know, they were very, very old and some of them were in the sixteen hundreds. Medieval times, some of them were modern times, and they all seem to not have any concept of time. They had no idea how long they were. They were there. The last spirits had no idea where they were. Uh, it just seemed to be an internal land of confusion. Uh, that went on endlessly. And until they decided to make the, the move to to get out of that, they just remained there. And so that this is why the Native American spirits that taught us how to do psychopomp encouraged us to do this work, because it was really kind of, um, clogging up the system, I guess you could say, because there were so many people, because of religion, because of, uh, like I say, staying staying behind. Uh, they didn't feel like they were worthy enough, because that's pretty much what, uh, at least our religions here in, in the West teach you is that you are not worthy and the only God and the only goodness that comes from you is from God. And so it tends to give people kind of a inferiority complex that they're not good enough. Uh, so it's it's, it's very key and very important for people to realize that no matter what they did in life, no matter how horrible are they could have been Adolf Hitler, and they still deserve to go into life and be evaluated and make plans for their next incarnation of how they're going to, uh, repair their life. I guess you could say, and how they're going to be a better person in their next life.

00:15:13 Speaker 1: Hmm. Yeah. That that liminal space you described doesn't sound abstract at all. I mean, I can already imagine it. It mirrors how many people, uh, feel, uh, emotionally or spiritually suspended, even while alive. So I really am glad for the thing that you're doing right now. And yeah, even I agree that I think the native, the Native American spirits, I think they appeared in front of you for a reason and you are fulfilling that reason. So, Michael, uh, for listeners who feel drawn to this but unsure where to begin, what's a grounded way to relate to that spirit or the unseen without losing stability in everyday life?

00:16:01 Speaker 2: Well, I guess first is is just realizing what your inadequacies are in in. Trying to put a name or a concept or, uh, An imagination on what death is. Death is a tool. Life is a tool. We, like I said, we are all in a school. And. Life as well as death is just a natural occurrence that happens to us as human beings. It's part of who and what we are. Uh, God designed this system to help us to become better people each time we transition. And I guess if I was going to give somebody some advice, just saying that there's so much love and emotion every time that we on the other side, every time that we would cross somebody over, we would get to feel that. Uh, and so it became a very tearful, happy scene every time that someone crossed over. And there was very few times that people chose not to cross over sometimes, but it was very few. We would, um. We were. My wife and I were very persuasive, uh, about making sure that that person went to where they were supposed to go, and they were with the love and light of God and their ancestors. And so I just wanted people to know how much love I mean, it seems to be the currency of the afterlife is just the unconditional love and amazing feeling. I mean, we only got to to witness it. We didn't actually have it happen to us. I think you would have to be dead yourself to have that happen, but there was enough of that energy going flowing around that we could feel it, and we became quite emotional, just along with the person that was considering whether they wanted to cross into light or not.

00:18:10 Speaker 1: So it's less about seeking dramatic experiences And more about restoring respectful attention, listening, observing, and building trust with the unseen gradually. So through this conversation, Michael, um, you know, I, uh, I mean, the the afterlife, as we call it, it doesn't sound that scary at all. In fact, it does sounds like a very peaceful place. And that's really reassuring. And it's it's, um, it has, you know, put a different perspective in my mind about life after death. So that's, that's really, um, a reassuring. Um, so, Michael, when people begin this path, fear often resurface. Fear of imagination, fear of darkness, fear of being wrong. But what helps people stay oriented when doubt or resistance appears?

00:19:07 Speaker 2: Well, I'll first tell you a story about my my wife, who I made contact with shortly after she passed away. Uh, she passed away in two thousand and one. Uh, breast cancer. And so she has she has transitioned herself now. And so I was able to make contact with her because we used to do this all the time. And I was surprised at how much information there is on the other side. I mean, there's humor. I mean, they were telling funny stories to me and jokes, uh, whenever I did Shamanic Travels, uh, there was a lot of activity. My wife said that she got a new job up there, and I was like, what new job? She says yes, and she used to be a teacher. She says, yes, I am. I am training and teaching, uh, these new souls that want to be incarnated on earth. Uh, I am helping them to choose their situation that they want to be incarnated in. So, almost like remote viewing, she's a she was able to show these people what their lives would be like with these particular, uh, parents or places or situations that that they would be involved with. Uh, and so they could evaluate whether they would be able to work on whatever, uh, part of their personality they wanted to improve. So I thought that was very fascinating that, uh, you know, there there is so much happening on, on the afterwards. They're they're just not sitting on clouds, uh, meditating. I mean, there's a lot of work happening on the other side, and it's quite amazing.

00:20:53 Speaker 1: Yeah, it sounds truly fascinating. It's it's like there is a whole civilization out there. People are, uh, having jobs and a life. That's. It's like there is life after life. That's that's wonderful to know. Truly. Um, that feels important. You know, learning to move at the pace of the nervous system, not the ego, and allowing mystery to remain mystery. So I guess we will figure out what's out there. Um, yeah. Michael, this has been an amazing conversation and you have truly taught us so much about death, about after death, and, uh, definitely about life. So, uh, I'm sure that our listeners, they want to learn more and now are more curious. So, Michael, for listeners who feel called to learn more or connect with your work, where can they find you?

00:21:51 Speaker 2: Well, right now I'm just trying to set up because this is all fairly recent that I, that I started doing these podcasts. I had a, a person, uh, do a podcast with me. My first one, uh, that actually read my book back in when it was released in twenty eighteen. And she's a doctor, a very interesting lady. And she decided to do a podcast and after her podcast, and she did it about my book, my wife and I's book, and she suggested that I join a company called or an app or I'm not sure what you call it, called Pod Match. And so that's how I have started to do these podcasts. And it's to stimulate my speaking career because I want to start speaking for people. And she suggested that that I do this because she said I was I was a good person to be able to, to do this. And so that's how I started doing this. I am giving my book away for free because I never really wrote it to make money. The Native American Spirits asked us to write that book just to get this word out. Uh, and so I, I, I want to give it away to people. And I haven't quite got the link set up yet. I'm going to be doing that today. But if someone does want to, uh, ask for the book, I will be happy to send them to it.

00:23:20 Speaker 1: It's really amazing what you're doing, and I hope that you keep doing it more. So, you know, perhaps life after death isn't a distant question. It's an invitation to live in deeper relationship with everything that is already here. And to our listeners, there is a question that you might want to ask yourself today. If death were not an ending to fear, but a teacher to listen to, what might it already be asking you to release? Thank you for sitting with us in the room today. If something stirred, you don't need to name it. Just notice it, let it breathe. And remember the unseen isn't elsewhere. It's woven through every moment we dare to meet with presence. Until next time. Stay spacious.