You are listening to the Vinny Tuzokot Oscar podcast and this is our conversation with YO Willems, cinematographer of the Black Mirror episode plaything.

It's always good to talk about these things, to talk them through in your own head.

Like, how do I experience my own life in doing.

I guess where I'd like to begin is to my knowledge, you've collaborated with director David Slade a couple of times.

For example, 30 days of night in 07, the vague pilot on the series side of Things, and the first three episodes of American Gods.

Sure, both of you have done multiple different projects with different DBs and directors in the meantime, but still the question arises, how has your creative shorthand evolved over these projects?

I mean, David definitely has a particular style.

There's certain elements that he adheres to.

You know, he still likes, you know, very sharp image.

He still likes to use skinny shutter.

He still likes to use enhanced camera movement and shaking and.

And for certain action scenes.

I started working with David in the.

Late 90s in the UK.

We did some music videos together.

I moved to the States, then he.

Moved to the States, and then I ended up doing his first movie, which was Hard Candy.

And we've still.

Until now, we still work together.

It's one of my.

It's probably my longest relationship with a director.

I think it's important as a DP.

To understand and to connect with a.

Director and sort of be at times in service of his visual style, but still to be able to work within that framework.

And he leaves me quite a lot.

Of freedom in terms of lighting.

He leaves me freedom in, like, you know, lens choice or that kind of stuff.

So I think it's important when you have a director with that kind of strong voice and opinion that you should.

Either you fold in or you should.

Step away, but it's still working.

I still, you know, work with him.

And I enjoy working with him, and we always come to a really funny, good result.

And specifically here on Black Mirror, when shooting an episode within an anthology series like this one, I'd guess you're aiming for creating a distinct look for this specific story, while, of course, acknowledging the tonal universe of the entirety of the series.

But does the fact that David had just directed an earlier episode of the series change anything for your understanding of the visual language that you're aiming for?

Kind of a twofold question, but I don't think so.

Weirdly enough, I mean, we really.

I know it was kind of.

There was some characters that came back from his bandersnatch episode that Sort of folded into this.

But I don't think I was like, oh, I really.

I mean, I.

I obviously watched that episode and I really enjoyed it.

And they did a lot of things in that as well.

But I felt we should just do our own thing.

And that's actually the beauty of Black.

Mirror is that everybody is sort of.

Allowed to do their own thing within their own episode, which is very unusual.

Usually when you do, like, all right, I'm coming into episode 10.

And this is kind of it.

You know, you have a gaffer and you have key grip, and they sort of really.

You could come in as a DP and actually not have that much influence on what this is going to look while this.

These episodes all kind of stand on their own, which, you know, we started to kind of talk about what this could look like.

David, funny enough, never works with any references.

He doesn't create some kind of board or that.

You know, it's really just by conversation or art direction or location led or.

Time period that this is set in.

You know, because this episode, the fun thing about this was really that it.

Was set in the 90s and then.

It was set in 2032.

So that was really the beginning of the conversation.

How do we make these two periods look differently?

And they obviously have a very distinct look, which was created both in camera and then also in the DI and the transfer.

And does the vacancy of references on David's side mean that you're also trying to avoid them, or are you still looking for them?

I actually, for this particular episode or.

This particular piece, I didn't really look at any references whatsoever.

I kind of had a feeling that the 90s should look more gritty, a little dirtier, maybe a bit of a.

Sort of a more square TV look.

That's kind of what David also came up with.

I forget what the exact aspect ratio.

Was, but, you know, it was like three, two or something like that.

It sort of ended looking a little.

Bit almost like 16 millimeter.

We ended up, like, adding grain and.

Older lenses, and we played quite a bit with contrast.

I also felt quite.

Sometimes things can start looking quite controlled.

Which is what we did for the modern element.

And then the period of the episode, I just felt quite bold in terms of lighting and to kind of break.

The image at times.

And just to.

Particularly when we get into the whole.

LSD sequences, I just wanted to really push it and not hold back and just.

And just go for it.

And I came up with this idea.

To put all these LEDs inside of.

The Map box in front of the lenses.

And it.

It was controlled by a dimmer board.

It had like 500 challenges channels because it.

It had so many colors.

And we just rotated them and just spun them around.

And it had like a very free form kind of idea.

The same with the flares behind Cameron's head.

It was literally two guys lying on.

The floor with lights that were like, you know, moving them in a very sort of uncontrolled pattern.

And it was just everybody on set when we were doing it was like, oh, this is great.

Yeah, it was super fun.

Since you've mentioned the kind of freedom you're getting from David, for example, in terms of lighting, and even though you just talked about the past part of it, something that has really stuck with me, your use of the window shades in the interview room in the future segments and how that, of course, intentionally disrupts the backlight that hits both the detectives and the suspect, depending on who we are looking at.

Could you walk me through a little bit the conceptual thinking behind this specific choice and its use execution?

So David didn't want to use, first of all, just to talk a little bit about the production design of this space.

David didn't really want to use sort of a classical English 9, an English sort of, you know, police station.

So he was like, let's look into the future.

What does that look like?

And let's build something that has a.

Little more scale and it has a.

Little more visual interest.

It had all these wide panels around the room.

And I came up with the idea of the blinds to put these blinds in.

And then maybe this interview runs over a full day.

We start in the morning and then the sun goes.

And then, you know, it's in the.

Winter, the sun is kind of low.

I came up with these ideas to keep it visually interesting, to have a.

Little bit of an arc to this interview.

So it starts morning and then, you know, sometimes it starts flaring and then it moves around and then it comes.

Into the part where we wanted to interfere with what Cameron is saying and.

Hit the lens and all of that stuff.

So it was.

It was all timed to when all of this was going to happen.

There was some free form to it.

Because, you know, we didn't know exactly how.

Where it would land, but it was definitely.

And I don't know if the audience.

Notices this, but there is definitely something that is going on in this room that a little bit more abstract than here it is.

We're sitting in this police station.

David just wanted us to push things.

And find stuff and just make it.

Interesting and just try it out, rather than just sit back and just throw stuff at it.

But we would discuss it and we would look at it, and it's okay, that's a good plan.

Let's do it.

It was also nice that the studio or Netflix or the producers, they were.

They seemed all on board.

I mean, nobody ever said, like, what's going on?

I know you didn't use or intentionally use references, but you know what those traits reminded me of for some reason?

Star Wars Episode two.

Okay.

Yeah.

And cast.

The aforementioned visual language has to, of course, evolve.

Yeah.

Significantly as the story unfolds, even in this shorter time frame.

And there is some wild stuff here.

For example, the acid trip sequence.

How did you bridge these visual transitions between, for example, the stark interrogation room and the past?

Especially since the story is set from our point of view in the future, which makes the gap in time even wider.

Yeah, because Cameron, young Cameron, he's young, you know, and then when you have Peter Capelli playing the older Cameron, I mean, there is a significant gap there, you know, and also just from a sort of appearance, you know, you can imagine that they are the same person.

But, you know, there's definitely a very big age gap.

So we definitely had a more controlled.

Look in the interview.

We sort of started wider.

You know, two shots, mid shots, wide.

Shot of the room.

The wide shot of the room we did come back to quite often.

But then as we go further and further into the story, we start getting.

Closer and closer and closer and more and more intimate.

Like, you know, as we progressed, that was sort of to build that tension.

And then as we progress in Cameron's story in the 90s, we just went, yeah.

I mean, he gets more and more paranoid.

He gets more and more into the lsd.

And there is a scene where he.

Him and Lump get into this fight.

Which is super kinetic, I'll say, you know, with the shutter angle and all the whatever that's happening.

And then.

Yeah, one of my favorite sequences is actually in the.

The train.

The tube station.

Yeah.

The shaking.

The shaking and all of that.

Adding the energy.

And it's.

David and I have been doing this now.

This is totally his idea.

I mean, he came up with all of this stuff back in the day of, like, just giving more and more energy.

I mean, this is really the way.

He sees the world.

And to express that, it's very effective, you know, it's very effective.

And sometimes I'm like, oh, my God, this is so crazy.

What we're doing.

And then, and then when you see.

It come together and then when you see it flow, it's actually.

I mean, it's.

It's absolutely brilliant, you know, to really.

As an audience, to be inside of that.

Inside of that character's head, you know, it really adds to the.

The emotional connection.

Yeah.

And as I've somewhat alluded to them, the episode, and pretty much all of them, since it's an anthology series, they have to pack a complete and complex story into, for example, here, roughly 45 minutes in a more of a big picture sense.

How does this compressed time frame of television affect your approach to the entire project?

I mean, television, it's sort of inherently a little bit different.

I mean, it still has like, there's still three acts to this story in this particular thing.

The way I looked at it was really like, okay, I have the interview room, the way that arcs work within that interview room.

And then I have the arc from Cameron, how he.

He is who he is.

And then he.

We track him all the way through, through the end.

So I don't know if I would truly say, oh, a movie, or, you know, I think you have to approach each project as its own thing.

Yeah, I love.

David always has this great thing where it's like, you know, making any.

Anything.

It's kind of like eating an elephant.

With a small spoon.

You know, it's kind of like you sort of dissect it piece by piece and you go forward and then you discover and you go through prep and, you know, you look at locations and you.

I don't know, I mean, this episode, funny enough, in my own development as a cinematographer, kind of came at the perfect time.

You know, I've sort of over the years been in a particular style and how I've evolved, and suddenly something turns up that I can so turn it.

A little bit upside down and go.

More in a gritty way and more.

A bit more dirty again and a bit more.

And it just felt perfect as a.

Transition of where I sort of want.

To go in the future.

So that was good timing.

Yeah.

And on that note, one of the central themes in Plaything is confidence.

Peter Capaldi's character even talks about it, describes it, etc.

Yeah.

The idea and possession of it.

So with that in mind, I'm curious, what has the evolution of your on set confidence been like as a cinematographer throughout your career to date?

Well, it's funny enough.

I mean, you know, when you first.

Start out, you're a little more.

You want to control things You're a.

Little more careful of, of mistakes.

And as you go on, I mean, you sort of become more confident in trying to take more risks and to push yourself to keep trying new things.

And I think also the thing that you become more experienced in is the.

Sort of communication with the crew and.

How you actually, I have tried to.

Also give more.

Maybe not autonomy, but, but like more including other people with their creative ideas and to openly let them be involved.

And that seems to.

So you're not on an island as.

Much as, as, as you sometimes can be as a cinematographer.

You know, like you include the operators.

Even the focus puller is like, hey.

Any ideas you got, just, just bring him, bring him to the table.

That's, you know, and if everybody is.

Truly involved in that way.

Same with like the guy that, that controls the lights to do the, the lsd.

I can't specifically say to somebody, okay, so I want that green light and then the red light and then the.

Blue thing, like all timed.

I think it's, there's, if there's a free flow of ideas, I think that's.

Makes a better whole, better end result.

And that's also been fun to let go a little bit of like trying to control every single piece of the puzzle.

Funny enough.

Which comes to coloring.

David has always been very, very involved in color.

I did pick the lot.

I did develop a lot that he really liked.

And we sort of looked at what.

The interior of the interrogation room looked.

Like and then we looked at what the, the period language could look like.

And David has worked with a couple colorists, but mostly one colorist called Jean Clement Soret, which, where he works out of London.

He's a French gentleman who we've done multiple projects with.

I've actually done a film with him.

Without David as well.

It's a film called His House that was super, super fun collaboration.

But pretty much I was not really.

Involved in the coloring of this project.

You know, David really goes and does his thing and you sort of have to trust that those two people that sit in a room in London are gonna do you right.

I mean, he, he, he did, they did send me a version so I could say, okay, cool, great, or, or like, hey, I'm not okay with this.

But there's something interesting about that too.

I mean, we did talk about where this could land and it sort of.

Landed where I wanted it to be.

So it's quite good.

But there is something about, you know.

Working with some directors who really have a visual idea.

And then I think As a cinematographer, you, I think you have to run with that.

If, if there would be multiple projects.

I wouldn't be happy with the end result.

I would be like, you know what?

I don't, I don't think I can do this anymore.

Or, hey, I want to sit in the room.

Yeah, but at the same time, you can make it all about pride.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But it's.

A lot of it was achieved in camera.

There was things that could not be changed.

There was some stuff that was done.

With vfx, but all the LSD stuff, I believe it was all done in camera.

It was just all, you know, and.

The same with all the highlights and the lights blasting through the windows and.

All of that stuff that was in the material that's there, you can't take it away.

So I kind of like the sort of handmade, slightly lo fi feel of it sometimes.

And sometimes like it's dark and it's.

Sort of like you can't really see through it.

But then you see these colors move in front of the shadows and it's sort of.

That's it, you're stuck with it.

You like or you don't.

So there is an uncontrolled feel about that I think is really important to get now because we can do so.

Much and so much control where you're.

Like, okay, let's shoot a clean image and then we go and paint over.

All of this in post production.

And that seems less interesting to me.

I think we can do with some.

Of this, you know, because now with.

Also with AI coming along and now.

People wanting to control things like that.

And so I don't know, I, I really enjoyed the, you know, there's elements.

Of chance to all of this.

Like, what's going to happen?

Okay, there's a guy spinning lights in front of the thing and with it, you know, it's fun.

Once more on the storytelling side of things, much of the episode relies on one character's detailed retelling of his life story.

What does shooting scenes that exist potentially only in memory or perception rather than objective reality mean for your work?

Does that mean that since you're working with the script or a longer script, that that becomes the objective reality or how does that look for you?

I mean, I guess the audience has to make up their mind if this.

Is truth or not truth.

Right.

Is what the storytelling.

You know, he seems quite truthful, he seems quite trustworthy.

He seems quite a gentle man.

And he, he doesn't seem to be lying.

There is also something about the, the two.

Well, one, the psychologist who seems to have a more gentle nature, while the.

Other, the police officer, seems to have quite a hostile.

He does mention it in the piece.

You know, quite hostile.

Cameron immediately starts talking about his trauma.

As a child, which feels now, as an audience feels quite objective or feels quite truthful.

And so I feel the whole sequence.

The way we shot it was quite observational.

You know, it's quite sort of sitting.

Back and letting him tell the story.

To wrap up.

To my knowledge, you have not one, but two horror projects on the horizon.

The Long Walk with Francis Lawrence and the Hand that Rocks the Cradle with Michel Garza.

Silvera.

Yeah.

What draws you to horror as a cinematographer?

And in between these projects, how do you find fresh visual approaches within genre?

Well, first of all, I think each.

Director has their own approach.

I try and be led by initial conversations about how do we approach this thing.

For example, the Hand that Rocks the Cradle was a movie that was already.

It's a remake, but it's, it's, it's a different take on it script wise.

And, and it's also set in modern day Los Angeles.

So how do we approach this?

How do we have that conversation?

The Long Walk, which is a Stephen King novel that's basically set, it's sort of timeless, but it's kind of late 60s, early 70s.

So the style, how do we approach that?

Again, with a director that I've worked.

With for, on many projects.

I met Francis here in LA in the early 2000s.

So I've been, I've been working with him for, for almost 25 years and same thing.

There's a lot of freedom, there's a.

Lot of conversation and it's like.

And, and each project is different.

So the things that attract me to horror.

I'm not really interested in slasher movies, even though 30 days a night has.

Some pretty gruesome stuff and Long Walk.

Has some pretty hard stuff going on.

It's more the psychology that becomes really interesting to visualize.

How do you visualize trauma?

How do you visualize, you know, psychological.

Ideas or, or something that, that affects people?

For example, his house was the trauma of two refugees that come to London and end up living in a house.

That becomes a haunted house.

That becomes super interesting to me visually because you have so much more.

You can work in abstraction, you can.

Work in ideas that are more, I wouldn't say experimental, but expressive cinematography rather than it just being observational.

And here I am just watching this thing.

You try and get the audience to.

Be experiencing what these people experience.

And that's super interesting.

And yes, as you just said, just like with David, with Francis, this is a long going, continuing collaboration.

While this is your first time lensing a film for Michelle.

So how do you navigate this dynamic between long time collaborators and new creative relationships?

Can you be intentional about such things?

Yes, very much so.

For example, with Michelle, it's very important, you know, and I have in years more experience than Michelle, but she as a filmmaker has made, and she's younger than I am, but she has probably seen equally the same amount of movies.

Or been inspired by equally the same amount of art.

You know, be it that somebody is.

20 or 55, you know, it's like.

It'S a sort of.

But the most important thing for me.

Is to make sure that I don't.

Go in there saying this is the.

Way we are going to do it or it is a collaborative effort and.

That'S the best way to get to an end result.

If somebody, you know, to, to truly dig in.

What, how are you feeling about this?

How, how, how is your experience of.

This script, of these characters and how, how are we going to tell this story that ultimately this feels like we both worked on this movie and that.

There is a freedom for both of.

Us to do this job because then.

It'S a joy to do the job.

And also I think one plus one equals three, right?

It just becomes better.

And but when, when I work with somebody like Francis or David who have.

Made many, many, many projects and have.

A certain style, then it's more okay, how do I fit into this?

And you know, but, but it's still very collaborative.

But it's different when Michelle, it's like, okay, how can I help and find her ideas but then add to it and like, hey, what do you think of this?

What about this?

What?

And you know, wherever she might have.

Not needed help or something.

But yeah, but definitely I always feel.

The need for a younger director or.

A less seasoned director to feel heard and not feel like stuff is happening around that person without her having input.

The same happened on his house.

Remy had not done a movie at all.

He had done some short films, but same thing.

I'm like, I want to hear you wrote this.

I want to hear what goes on in your head.

And then let's build from there and see where we land.

And I think it's really important to.

Even if you disagree at certain parts.

In the, in the preparation of the movie, I think it's really important to.

Get on the same wavelength by the.

Time that you get to.

To shooting Day one and to be.

To be in sync and to be one mind.

I don't know.

I find collaboration the most fun thing.

About this, this, this.

This job.

Same with the operators that I work with.

I mean, there's one operator that I have worked with for since 2006 or 7.

You know, I've done.

I've done most of my films with him.

A few things I haven't done with him, but he actually ended up being the cinematographer.

This is his first movie.

He did Warfare for Alex Garland, which I went to see it over the weekend, and he did a fantastic job.

I mean, that's also David, right?

Yeah, David, yeah.

And, yeah, he did a fantastic job on that.

You know, it's brilliant.

So, yeah, those are great things.

So I wish him all the luck.

He deserves, you know, and moving forward.

And doing other projects and.

But yeah, it's the collaboration, really, that is the fun part.

100%.

And, yeah.

Yo, thank you so, so much for your time and this conversation, and I cannot wait to see these two and any future project of yours that's to come.

All right, well, I appreciate the conversation.

It's always good to talk about these things, to talk them through in your own head.

Like, how do I experience my own life in doing this?

So these are always fun.

Thank you.

Thank you so much.