audioKaralynnRoyster11868877608 (00:00)
takes one secure, loving adult to buffer the stress. We know this from the research.
Courtney (00:13)
Welcome back to Kids These Days, insights for every stage of child and family development. I'm your host, Dr. Courtney Lynn. When a family faces the reality of divorce, the first question that usually hits parents, often driven by intense fear, is, is this going to mess up my child? It's a heavy weight to carry. We worry that our decision to choose our own health and well-being will somehow break the security we've worked so hard to build with our child.
But as we talk about often on this show, our children don't need us to be perfect. They need us to be regulated, honest, and present. Today, I am joined by Dr. Carolyn Royster to help us move from that state of anxiety into a place of clarity and empowerment. Dr. Royster is a child psychologist, a co-parenting expert, and a mom. She is the creator of the Kids First Co-Parenting System, a signature program designed specifically for high achieving moms
navigating the complexities of high conflict situations and difficult ex-partners. Dr. Royster lives and parents right here in Colorado, and she is passionate about keeping the child's emotional health at the center of the divorce transition. Today, we're diving into the best way to tell your kids about a separation, how to handle the inevitable messy middle of co-parenting emotions, and why one secure loving adult
is actually enough to buffer the stress of even the hardest transitions. Dr. Royster, I am so glad you're here. Let's dive in.
Courtney (01:45)
Good morning, Dr. Royster, how are you?
audioKaralynnRoyster11868877608 (01:47)
I'm good. How are you? I'm so happy to be here.
Courtney (01:50)
Me too, I'm really excited. I feel like this is such a heavy topic that swirls around in parents' minds all the time. So I'm excited to kind of clarify things and have your expertise on our show to be able to talk about divorce and co-parenting.
audioKaralynnRoyster11868877608 (02:05)
Yeah.
Yeah. Well, and I always appreciate talking to you because of all the step parenting support you offer. feel like it, symbiotic with my work as well. I tend to be more at the beginning or pretty newly after a divorce or still in the thick of it. But then there's sort of that next step of when people start to repartner and remarry.
Courtney (02:17)
Yes, exactly.
audioKaralynnRoyster11868877608 (02:32)
And that adds a whole nother layer of things for families. So I refer to you often for that.
Courtney (02:37)
Yeah.
Thank you. Yeah, there's so many dynamics, like you said, with just the divorce and repartnering and step parents and co-parenting. It's a lot going on. Yeah. Yeah.
audioKaralynnRoyster11868877608 (02:47)
It is, it really is.
Yeah, so that's the work that I do. That's where I find myself often.
Courtney (02:53)
Yes, well, I'm excited
to chat about this. Maybe we can start with one of the things that I hear most often from parents. So if I'm working, you know, with a couple or a kid and parents are going to divorce, their biggest worry often is, is this going to mess up my child? And so I am curious your thoughts. know, you know, conflict and all of that kind of comes into play, but just generally that question, is this going to mess up my child? How do you?
audioKaralynnRoyster11868877608 (03:06)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Courtney (03:22)
like to answer that.
audioKaralynnRoyster11868877608 (03:24)
Yeah. So I typically say it doesn't have to. It absolutely can. Right. If you do it poorly, if there's a lot of high conflict, if there's abuse, as you think about adding stressors, right. If you have to move houses, if someone loses a job, if, you know, there's, I don't know, there could be any number of reasons, but as things get harder, as you layer on the stressors,
the more you're going to see it impact children. However, it isn't all bad all the time. So I tend to think that having healthy, well-adjusted parents is better than having two people in a home that low-key don't like each other or don't get along, right? I think it's important for kids to see their parents choose their own wellbeing and their health, Meaning,
this broad sense of health, emotional health, and perhaps physical health too. I think that's really important. And so there are a lot of lessons in there. Will it impact your children? Absolutely it will. It's a stressor. It's a major life stressor for everyone, adults and kids. The research tells us it takes about two years for things to level out again. However, during those two years,
in that initial period when they're struggling, that's a healthy response to stress, right? We want to see that. We want to see how kids, like, if you get divorced and nothing changes and your kids are just totally cool, you haven't, like nothing in their world has changed, I'm worried about that for a different reason. So will it mess up your kids? Not indefinitely and not necessarily.
Can it mess them up? Yeah, of course it can. But so can being in a toxic home. So can having to move schools. So can, you know, there's many, many things. Life is full of stress. Our job is to help our kids move through stress, not avoid stress altogether.
Courtney (05:40)
Right. And you bring up so many good points that, you know, kids seeing parents who low-key or high-key don't like each other, right? It could be obvious overtly don't like each other, is also not healthy for kids, right? And so, you know, parents choosing themselves and choosing what is best for their family, which might mean to separate and divorce, can be a temporary stressor for kids.
audioKaralynnRoyster11868877608 (06:03)
Mm-hmm.
Courtney (06:06)
And also if they are well adjusted and able to kind of go through the process, you know, with as low conflict as possible, then it might, you know, end up to be a healthy situation.
audioKaralynnRoyster11868877608 (06:17)
Exactly. And I think this parallels a lot of things in parenting. I may need to move one of my kids out of their favorite amazing elementary school because they don't have, I don't know, let's say reading services that my child needs. My kid's not going to love that, leaving their friends and having a hard time, but I'm doing it because of what's best in the long run for them. So a little bit of distress may be okay for their long-term gain.
I also, it's not the same, but I also sometimes liken it to a flu shot where I'll tell my kids like, this is really uncomfortable and it's gonna hurt. And we need to do it because it's what's best for you. obviously divorce is much bigger than that. Presumably this is something parents have thought a lot about and come to this decision with a lot of.
discernment and time spent thinking about how this is going to impact us and impact the kids and made the decision that this is best for everybody at the end of the day. And so that's what we say. That's how we handle it.
Courtney (07:25)
Yeah, yeah. And that's such
a good point too, that this isn't something that we just decide one day overnight, you know, and tell our kids and it just throws everything off. It's often a long time in the works and many discussions and talking with therapists and all sorts of things that go on before telling kids this decision. And I don't know your experience, but I often work with parents and that fear of
audioKaralynnRoyster11868877608 (07:45)
Mm-hmm.
Courtney (07:53)
you know, air quotes, messing their kids up or causing so much distress for their kids can sometimes hold them back from making that decision that in their gut, they know is best for themselves. I'm curious your thoughts on, yeah, how parents can kind of navigate that, right? Like healing themselves and making these decisions while also knowing it will hurt your kid, like you said, flu shot, and it can also be what is best for them.
audioKaralynnRoyster11868877608 (08:01)
Yes.
Mm-hmm. I think where this gets very tricky is when it's not super clear and when it's not super toxic. So it's not easy, of course, but when there's violence in the home, when there's emotional abuse, when there's financial abuse, in a lot of ways that makes it easier for a parent to be, to get to a place where they're like, we're not doing this anymore. I think where it's really challenging is when it's
people that have grown apart. There's nothing quote unquote super red flagging wrong. It's just, I'm not happy and I need to move on for whatever reason. Maybe someone's done their own work and their own healing and someone else hasn't. And so that's where I see a lot of guilt and shame for parents is I'm making a selfish choice, which it isn't selfish, but I'm making this choice and it's gonna hurt my kids.
I those decisions are not well made alone. I think you really need to be working with a divorce support group, a therapist, a circle of, I was gonna say moms, but obviously your listeners could be dads as well. I mostly work with A circle of people that really understand and can help stay with you in those hard moments.
Courtney (09:28)
Yeah.
audioKaralynnRoyster11868877608 (09:48)
because no one wants to hurt their kids. And none of us want to think we're doing anything to harm them. And so that weight can be very heavy to bear and usually requires extra support. Okay. I think it goes easier if you've done what we as psychologists called the work ahead of time. If you've really spent a lot of time thinking about it and moving through all the stages of grief and
kind of come to this place on your own and you just know this is what's right for you, I think that helps with those big feelings
Courtney (10:24)
So that also is really nice. You know, when parents have a lot of clarity and they feel certain for themselves that this is the right decision, right. And then they can communicate that to their kids in a confident way that makes the kids feel more safe.
audioKaralynnRoyster11868877608 (10:35)
Mm-hmm.
Courtney (10:43)
If it's like kind of uncertain, you know, that might be confusing for kids. So what is the best way to tell a child that we are getting divorced? Or is there a best way?
audioKaralynnRoyster11868877608 (10:57)
Yeah, there is a best way. There is a good way, I would say. The piece that I always want to tell parents about this is that it very likely is not a one-time conversation. I think that's maybe a myth that I hear a lot is, we sat them down and we told them, and they should get it now. And the truth is, you have to return to it many times, separately, together, all the different ways.
Courtney (10:59)
Right.
audioKaralynnRoyster11868877608 (11:26)
I think the best standard of care we have around this is to try to do it together. If you can, you and your partner. This is not always possible, but we're talking pie in the sky, best case scenario to hit the highlights, which is not your fault. Nothing you can do to fix this. love for you doesn't change. Okay. So these are the things kids worry about. And then
Usually, well, I shouldn't say usually. A lot of times parents kind of dance around it. So they say things like, we're gonna go our separate ways, or this just isn't working anymore. Kids don't know what that means. We need to be very explicit. So saying something like, we have thought long and hard about this, we've spent a lot of time talking as a couple, and we have decided to get a divorce.
It's important to pause here and to say, do you know what divorce means? Because a lot of kids don't. I see this in my clinical work a lot. They'll come in and be like, they said they were getting divorced. And I'm like, what does it mean? And they're like, they're not going to date anymore. And I'm like, what? That's not a thing. Or they're going to have a different house. So you do need to say, do you know what this is? So that you can check out if they have any misconceptions about it.
educate them about that. Divorce means we're gonna, we are not going to be married anymore. We are going to live in separate homes and we will let you know what that's going to look like. This is not the time to get really in the weeds about the details. So sometimes parents will start going with like, we've decided that we're going to do a 225 and what that means is this and we have a schedule and you'll still be able to go to soccer and you'll still be able to see this friend.
Courtney (13:13)
Okay.
audioKaralynnRoyster11868877608 (13:25)
We want to keep it kind of short and sweet. We'll get into the details later. We hit the highlights. It's not your fault. You can't fix it. Right. We both will still love you. You are allowed to love both of us. Right. And then you stop. Just stop talking for a minute and just sit with it a minute and then maybe ask, do you have any questions about this? What are you wondering? What are you feeling?
This is the point to be prepared for any number of things. Oftentimes, I see kids that are very upset about the divorce, but their parents will tell me they just got up and left, like it was no big deal, or they didn't say anything, or they said, am I still gonna see my best friend? And we didn't know how to respond to that. And I want to normalize that kids are gonna respond a lot of different ways, and that's okay.
Courtney (13:59)
Mm-hmm.
audioKaralynnRoyster11868877608 (14:24)
This is why we return to it. Okay. So don't make the mistake of assuming that it's not a big deal to them. It is. Right. I've had kids say things, anything from, you know, sobbing, being very upset to what took you so long or yeah, like there's, you're just ready for kind of any experience. might be a lot of anger. There might be no reaction. Kids respond all kinds of different ways.
Courtney (14:43)
Yeah.
audioKaralynnRoyster11868877608 (14:54)
And that's
Courtney (14:56)
Yeah.
Okay. So the thing, so we still love you. This isn't your fault. You can love both of us. Nothing's going to change this. We are getting divorced. Pause. It's kind of the like, ⁓ high lights of the conversation.
audioKaralynnRoyster11868877608 (15:07)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yep. Kids will often ask at that point something that pertains to them. So they want to know, I going to change schools? Are we going to move? Who's going to get the dog? Right. You can answer those questions. Those are child appropriate worries. We would expect that.
Courtney (15:19)
right, of course.
Yeah. and then you mentioned revisiting it. Do you follow their lead and like if you're seeing changes in their behavior or they're withdrawing or any of those sorts of things, then you revisit it or you think give it a few days, bring it up again, you know, no matter how they're reacting.
audioKaralynnRoyster11868877608 (15:36)
Mm-hmm.
think you need to bring it up again no matter what. Okay, so it's very likely you will see changes in behavior. Again, kind of what we talked about earlier, you should see that. You just dropped a bomb on their whole world. We would expect some reaction. Okay, so we're ready for that. We know that's gonna happen. I would expect your kid to come to you with their questions, especially our like middle age and younger, so kind of middle school kids.
your teenagers and elders, they may not, right? They may be keeping it to themselves. This is why you wanna return to it sort of explicitly. With an older child, you might say, or a teen, you might just check in. Hey, what are you thinking about what we talked about on Monday? How are you feeling about it? Dr. Lisa DeMore, one of my favorites adolescent psychologist, she talks a lot about doing it in the car.
when you're just about to get home so that there's like an end point and teens don't feel trapped, right? Or right before bed, they'll maybe wander into your room and you kind of, how you doing? Got a lot on your mind, that kind of stuff. Younger kids, you probably will need to circle back a little bit more explicitly. So I'm thinking about our conversation and wondering what questions you have. This is a time where when you know your kid,
Courtney (16:49)
Mm-hmm, that's a great idea.
audioKaralynnRoyster11868877608 (17:14)
you can do some wondering aloud around questions you assume they might have. Okay, so if you know your kid is really, really worried about moving, maybe you've heard this before, you might address it then. So, you know, we talked about this earlier this week, curious if you have any questions. I bet you're wondering if you're gonna get to still go to your school, because I know you love your school.
And you know, your dad and I have talked about it and we're gonna do our very best to keep you in that school. Right? So you're addressing what you think might be a concern if you can.
Courtney (17:53)
No, what if there still is a lot of uncertainty? Should parents wait? Because I'm thinking too, and actually I think you have a podcast about this. I haven't listened to it admittedly, but I know that you have about, I know I try to keep up. do try to keep up. Yes. With the parents where their kids stays in the home and the parents switch and there's, right. Yeah. Yeah. Or there's all these different parenting plans. Like should parents have those details nailed down?
audioKaralynnRoyster11868877608 (18:01)
That's okay. Yeah. There's so much to listen to. My queue is miles long. Yeah.
yeah, yeah, that's called nesting.
Courtney (18:23)
Even if, like you said, we're not gonna tell them in the moment, you know, we're gonna kind of keep it more simple so that as they do start asking questions or we revisit, we can explicitly answer those questions or is the uncertainty okay?
audioKaralynnRoyster11868877608 (18:38)
Well, the uncertainty is always there, right? And so I think a good plan of action is typically to name the uncertainty. So let's, a very common thing is the family home. What's gonna happen to our house? Are we still gonna live here? Most of the time when you announce to your kids that you're getting your divorce, you don't know that yet. It's kind of, we're still working that out and mediation. We don't know what this is all gonna look like. So you might say something like, that's a really good question.
Courtney (18:39)
Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
audioKaralynnRoyster11868877608 (19:07)
I'm wondering that as well. So you're validating the uncertainty or you know what, sweetheart, we actually don't know the answer to that yet. Here's what I can tell you. And then you fill in something. like, I this is a little clinical jargony, but attachment-based. So something reassuring such as we will always have a place to live. We will always do our best to take care of you. You will always be safe, whatever.
kind of thing. So in this case, you know, we're not going to leave our city. We're going to stay in Colorado. I will always make sure you have a safe place to sleep at night. And when I know what's going to happen with the house, we will tell you. So you're it's okay to not know is what I'm saying. It's okay to know what the uncertainty is. It's developmentally appropriate to name that in a lot of ways.
And to let them know, I'll tell you when I know. Like we will fill you in on what's important for you to know as it comes up. What you want to watch for here is over explaining and parentifying. So getting the family home is a great example. Getting into like, well, if so and so decides that they want to sell, then I'll have enough for a down payment and maybe I'll be able to afford a house here and he's going to get an apartment there. like,
We don't like it's too much. It's too much. Right. You don't need to go into the like depths of the uncertainty the way you would with a best friend, for example. Right. Or your therapist, which is a great place to talk about these things.
Courtney (20:37)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Exactly.
Exactly. That's so, and I know it's so hard to do, like even as you're saying these things, I'm like, this all sounds really great and parents are really regulated and like they're on the same page with their partner that they're divorcing, you know, soon to be ex partner. What are some tips or tricks or things that you talk to families about? Like when the parents emotion.
is taking over, right? I'm thinking, you know, if a kid asks, we gonna stay in the house? And the parent wants to say like, well, that's up to, you know, buy X because if, you know, they need to be paying for this house and blah, blah, blah, blah, like it's really hard, I imagine sometimes to stay very regulated and to say the, you know, quote, right things. What are some tips you have for parents?
audioKaralynnRoyster11868877608 (21:20)
Yeah.
Well,
and what I would say, Courtney, is I see a lot of people where one partner is really on board with the cardinal rules of divorce, right? We don't talk badly about the other person. We keep kid topics, kid topics. We let them have their childhood, la la la, right? So typically there's one person that's like, yes, I'm committed to this. And so they say something like what I just said.
And then the co-parent comes in and is like, well, and says something totally inappropriate, fills the kid head with all kinds of craziness, and is very likely very dysregulated themselves. I also see this when there isn't a lot of discussion. know, we are talking about how most of the time there's a lot of thinking that goes into this. Not always, sometimes, usually one person is thinking about it.
Courtney (22:29)
Right, yeah, good point.
audioKaralynnRoyster11868877608 (22:33)
But sometimes one person is blindsided. I have my questions about that a little bit sometimes. like, what happened that we were at a point where we really didn't think this could happen? Right? But that's when it's really tricky. When you're in your own grief, when you were totally surprised by this, when there was perhaps infidelity and you didn't know it and then you found out and then you're like, and we're done. And people really do feel like their lives are turned upside down.
in a week or in a day. And I very much respect that. I think there are moments, I think there are weeks, I think there are sometimes months where parents just cannot get out of their own feels and do say things that are wildly inappropriate to their kids or really out of line or mean or just sad.
Courtney (23:20)
you
Yeah.
audioKaralynnRoyster11868877608 (23:31)
You know,
I really think that that happens and I get it. And I think the piece is that it's never too late to go back and repair. so holding yourself to the standard that I have to do these things perfectly, one may not be possible because your co-parent may not be on board, quite frankly. Two may not be possible because you're going through the stages of grief as well.
Courtney (23:59)
Mm-hmm.
audioKaralynnRoyster11868877608 (24:00)
Three, isn't really possible for any of us as parents ever to be permanent. So I think really letting yourself, one, listening to people around you, listening to your kids, listening to your therapist, listening to your friends, to your mom, when they very gently say something to you like, yikes, that was ⁓ something. Or like, do you think that maybe that was a big reaction to that, right?
Courtney (24:02)
⁓ Perfect, right, exactly, exactly.
Yeah.
audioKaralynnRoyster11868877608 (24:29)
So listening to those things and then being able to come back to your child and say,
None of us are perfect. Nobody's perfect. Our whole family is going through a lot of stress right now. I make mistakes, you make mistakes. My feelings are totally my feelings to have. All feelings are okay. All behaviors are not, right? So it's really okay for me to be mad and sad. When you're the parent, you need to kind of add in that extra layer of it's not your responsibility to take care of my sadness.
For kids though, you may say like, you're allowed to be sad. I really shouldn't have said those unkind words about your dad to you. I really shouldn't have. I was angry that wasn't okay and it wasn't okay in front of you. I'm gonna work on. So the tenants of a good apology, right? Owning your peace, not being defensive, talking about how you're gonna do it differently and then opening it up to your kids to say, what was that like for you?
Courtney (25:22)
Mm-hmm. ⁓
audioKaralynnRoyster11868877608 (25:33)
and being able to hear that,
Courtney (25:35)
Which is hard to
audioKaralynnRoyster11868877608 (25:36)
It is hard to, all of this is so easy to say. It's so much harder to do in practice.
Courtney (25:41)
Yeah,
especially like you said, there could be, there's so many emotions in so many different circumstances surrounding divorce and you know, whose decision it was, was there a big thing? Yeah, all, everything that you have already named that can bring up so many emotions for parents that make it hard to kind of stay regulated in the moment.
audioKaralynnRoyster11868877608 (25:56)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah. I mean, I think what really hurts kids and what really messes up kids is when people are not validating what is happening for them. So if you are shit talking your ex all the time, but then you're saying, and you're repairing to your kids like, but he's such a great guy and I just love him so much that that's gaslighting your kids. You know, that doesn't make sense to them. So you have to be able to say,
I am really angry at this person. And there's a part of me that also loves these parts of them. If you're going to be spouting off about them, you you just can't, you're, just, you can't pretend you're okay if you're not, you know?
Courtney (26:42)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Right,
which, that also would probably be confusing for kids, right? Like, wait, they're acting, like they're fine, like they're not, yeah.
audioKaralynnRoyster11868877608 (26:54)
Yes, yes.
Yes.
Yeah, it doesn't make any sense. Right. So a lot of these high conflict families that I work with, it gets really confusing because there's a level of trying to co-parent together, but then there's this kind of unease underneath of legal battles and things happening behind the scenes and kids feel that. And so they often land in therapist's offices for things like anxiety.
because things aren't matching up, right? Things aren't clicking. It doesn't make sense. They're telling me they're fine, but like they kind of low key hate each other and like won't sit by each other at the soccer game. And I don't get that, you know? Or I hear mom saying something horrible about dad, but yet she's telling me it's all fine and they're going to work it out. It doesn't seem like they're going to work it out, you know? So it's the line here is always to validate what they're bringing to you.
Courtney (27:52)
Yeah, yeah,
audioKaralynnRoyster11868877608 (27:59)
And to release the judgment around it. we're, we're saying like, yeah, it is confusing the way that we interact with each other and stopping. We're not continuing with like, because your dad's kind of a jerk and you know, like he just always wants to have the last word or whatever it is you want to say. Usually that's the part you stop saying.
Courtney (28:12)
Wait, wait, wait.
Yeah,
yeah, yeah, Okay, so validating what they're bringing to you. I mean, it is a really confusing time. And like you said, it can take two years, I'm sure sometimes even longer until people are in adulthood to even look back and understand what happened with everything. And so it is kind of hard. There is no perfect way of doing it.
audioKaralynnRoyster11868877608 (28:37)
Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, the best way is we know that the less conflict, the less stress. We just know that. If you can co-parent well, that is better for kids full stop, like it just is. And a lot of people don't have that option, right? So two things can be true. We know what works for them. And if that's not your situation, there are still ways you can.
keep your kids okay through all of it.
Courtney (29:12)
Yeah,
I'm projecting with this question, but, I'm thinking, yeah, was thinking about my parents got divorced. They co-parented great. I don't even know like what happened, like in terms of, I guess they probably went to mediation. I'm guessing that happened. I didn't know. Like I got to stay in the same house. My, both of my parents showed up to all my sporting events. Like it was fine. However, we never talked about like the emotion behind it. You know what I mean? Like,
audioKaralynnRoyster11868877608 (29:16)
I'm ready. I'm here for it.
Yeah. Yeah.
This is amazing.
Courtney (29:42)
They did really, really well. And we weren't checking in on terms of this is really sad or how is this for you, any of those pieces. So it is interesting to think about, you know, there's so much, like there's a lot to manage during that time. yeah. No, no, no.
audioKaralynnRoyster11868877608 (29:50)
Yeah.
I think, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you.
mean, kids in that situation are often like, well, why did we have to do this then? Why are we into, I don't get it. I had the opposite experience. I had parents that if one showed up to the sporting event, the cops got called kind of thing. Like they did not get along. It was very clear. And honestly, in some ways that was a gift in bad paper because
Courtney (30:21)
Okay.
audioKaralynnRoyster11868877608 (30:31)
We all knew exactly what was up. You know, like you knew there was no negotiating parenting time. You knew there was no, me like, you guys are gonna huddle about how best to support me. None of that, none of that, right? And so there's this, there's many different ways it can look and go, but the thread that binds them all together is that you have to show up for your kids. You have to get out of your own way, get out of your own feelings.
Courtney (30:43)
Yeah. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
audioKaralynnRoyster11868877608 (31:01)
and talk about what they're experiencing, right?
Courtney (31:04)
Right, focusing
on their experience and how they're feeling and checking in with them. Even if you're like, we're doing all the right things. We're showing up, we're fine with each other. Yeah, like, we got to check in with how the child is doing. What if your child says things like, you know, I hate you for doing this or if I was better, then maybe this wouldn't have happened or just, you know, a teen just shuts down and is like, I'm never talking to you again.
audioKaralynnRoyster11868877608 (31:09)
Yeah.
We're doing okay, yeah.
Yeah, or the classic, I'm gonna go live with mom, I'm gonna go live with dad, right? It depends on the age, developmentally, what that might mean. And if a teenager can get in the car and go, that's a different can of worms, quite frankly. If they're with you, I think any hint of blame for themselves. So I...
Courtney (31:35)
Right, right.
audioKaralynnRoyster11868877608 (31:56)
could have been a better kid if I hadn't failed that class or made this certain team. I don't even know. can't even. I'm not a sports girl. If I had done this differently, you guys would still be together. That's really important to address head on. So those are conversations that I would get down on their level. I would be like, ⁓ sweetie, no, that is not true. This is entirely a grownup decision.
It does not have to do with you. You didn't break it and you can't fix it is basically the message. Other, the other examples you gave where they're, more outward expressions of anger, sadness, grief. Your job is to hold that. Okay. So saying, hate you, or this is the worst. I hate my family. A good, depending on your kid. So some kids, you just need to listen. Other kids, need to say something like,
Courtney (32:41)
Mm-hmm.
audioKaralynnRoyster11868877608 (32:54)
It's clear to me you're very angry and upset about this. And after we calm down, maybe we problem solve a little. What can we do? Well, I hate this 225. Okay, ⁓ I wanna hear about that. Tell me more, right? Or I'm just really sad and I don't know what to do. All right, well, let's get you in with some other kids that have gone through this or let's get you a therapist. You know, like then you problem solve. Let's figure out how to get you outside more or whatever it might be.
Courtney (33:02)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
audioKaralynnRoyster11868877608 (33:24)
So it's mostly being able to hold the anger. The wrong move would be to yell back or fall apart as well, right? Like just start crying or to blame your co-parent. Sometimes you can join in with the sadness or the anger, and that can be really powerful. So doing something like, I'm really mad too.
Courtney (33:28)
Mm-hmm.
Correct, yeah.
audioKaralynnRoyster11868877608 (33:52)
This sucks and I hate it, right? Or, yeah, I am devastated. Like what happened at the concert was horrible. Come sit with me, let's have a good cry together, snuggle on the couch and then we'll figure it out, you know?
Courtney (34:06)
So it's really about keeping the child at the center and you know your child best and if joining in on the emotion is helpful, then you can do that. If just holding space is what they need, you can do that. If when they're regulated and you want to problem solve, you can do that. So it still is, know, yeah, parents know their kids best and there's not a one size fits all, but it's really...
focusing and centering how they're feeling and their experience with it.
audioKaralynnRoyster11868877608 (34:34)
Yeah, it's just like you and me, right? If I'm really angry, sometimes I want to be around people. Sometimes I want to do a workout. Sometimes I want to be alone. Sometimes I want to talk about it. Sometimes I want to avoid it. That happens to all of us, right? Yeah, and they're allowed, they are children working out how to handle it. And so that's part of your job is we're not trying to remove the emotion.
Courtney (34:47)
Okay, all of the things, yes. All of the various options for coping.
Mm-hmm.
audioKaralynnRoyster11868877608 (35:02)
We're not trying to make it go away or judge it as if they shouldn't have it. They have it. Our job is to help teach them how to manage the big feelings. And so that's the piece that you can do, you know?
Courtney (35:19)
Yeah.
Okay, so the highlights I'm hearing like, is this going to mess up your child was the first thing that we talked about. It will, it's a stressor. So it is going to throw things off, but in the longterm, you know, seeing parents and healthy relationships or not being in a home where there's not an abundance of love and there's a lot of conflict as the adult, you can make that decision that it might be a better choice and your child.
audioKaralynnRoyster11868877608 (35:46)
Mm-hmm.
Courtney (35:47)
can get through that was the first thing. I'm hearing to be very concrete in our description. So we love you, this isn't your fault, you can't change this, you can love both parents and we're getting divorced. And then just centering the child and how they're feeling through everything. Now, of course, we're good.
audioKaralynnRoyster11868877608 (35:49)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. You know,
one thing I'll add, Dr. Lynn, is that one of my favorite tools to use with kids, particularly younger kids, especially if you're a parent that does not find the words easily and is worried about what they're going to ask, is books. So there's so many great books on how to talk to kids about divorce. And you can honestly just read a book with them if you're like, I can't do this. I don't know what to do.
Courtney (36:27)
right.
audioKaralynnRoyster11868877608 (36:37)
You need to do it with them to start the conversation. But a book will have the language for you, right? Yeah.
Courtney (36:43)
Perfect. Yeah. Books
are really great and we can link some of the helpful books. Perfect. Okay. Well, what is one, I know we talked about very ideal situations today. Perhaps we can have another episode on when things don't go the way that you want it to go and how to get through those. Cause I know that also is a very, you know, in part of your expertise. What is one takeaway thing that you want to share with a parent that is listening today who
audioKaralynnRoyster11868877608 (36:47)
Yeah, I have a whole list. Yeah.
Yeah.
Courtney (37:13)
is contemplating divorce or either just told their kid that they're getting divorced. What do you want them to know?
audioKaralynnRoyster11868877608 (37:18)
Mm-hmm.
I often say it takes one secure, loving adult to buffer the stress. We know this from the research.
And so you may not be able to control what is happening around them. We can't, I wish we could, but we can't. You may not be able to control what your ex does, how your kid responds. I mean, all these factors, right? What you can control is how you show up for your child in a loving, consistent way.
and you can know that that gets carried with them, right? That's what attachment is. And so you're way more powerful than you think as they navigate through this stressor and others. That's what I would say, yeah.
Courtney (38:02)
Yeah, right. Yeah,
focusing on what's in their control and being that secure, loving, consistent parent can help buffer all that stress.
audioKaralynnRoyster11868877608 (38:13)
can. I can. That's the goal.
Courtney (38:16)
Well, yeah, exactly. Well, thank
you so much for your time today. We'll definitely have to do this again, because this is a depth of lots of things to talk about with this conversation. I will link your podcast and all of your resources, because you have a whole podcast on all of this and co-parenting. So that is definitely a go-to place for people listening is to check that out. So we will, yeah, do this again.
audioKaralynnRoyster11868877608 (38:28)
so much. Yeah. Please.
So great to talk to you. Thank you for having me.
Courtney (38:45)
Yes, thank you.
Courtney (38:48)
My biggest takeaway from today's conversation with Dr. Royster is the reminder that we are not trying to help our children avoid stress altogether. We are helping them move through it. Whether you are in the initial stages of a separation or years into a complex co-parenting journey, remember Dr. Royster's anchor for today. It just takes one secure loving adult to buffer the stress for a child.
You may not be able to control your ex, the legal process, or the uncertainty of the future, but you can control how you show up as a steady ground for your child.
If you found yourself in a stomp and slam moment recently, or said something about your co-parent that you regret, remember that smart brain regulated approach is all about the repair. It is never too late to go back, own your piece and validate your child's experience. If you want to learn more about Dr. Royster's work or her kids first co-parenting system, you can find all the links in the show notes along with her own podcast.
which is a wealth of information for anyone navigating these dynamics. Remember, you don't have to be perfect to be a great parent. We are all learning about how to raise kids these days.