andrea (00:00)

I know that this sounds odd because we've all been taught to be the bigger person, but there is a difference between being kind and giving away all your leverage. So when is nice going to screw up your legal strategy? You're gonna find out on this episode of How Not to Suck at Divorce.

Well, I have something nice to share today. Are you ready for it?

Morgan Stogsdill (01:01)

I would love something nice today.

andrea (01:03)

Okay, we just now, incoming, got a post in our private community. And it says, Okay, friends, today.

Is the big day, it's mediation day, which is the first step where I am located. thank you, Andrea and Morgan and this community for helping me prepare so well to kick off the negotiations today. I never wanted to be here, but with your help, I feel prepared and supported. Love that.

Morgan Stogsdill (01:33)

Wow,

I love that. Well, I think it's also a thing too, and I wish her the best of luck or him. I think it's a thing that we always talk about, which is if you feel prepared because you put in the effort, you're gonna be so much better. And those high stakes mediations or even a hearing, it's the when you're unprepared, you just come in and you just feel a different way.

andrea (01:55)

And think that being prepared is more, this is exactly why we do this show. Being prepared does not just mean that you're cramming information down your throat like you're studying for a test. Being prepared also incorporates the mental and emotional support because you need to be prepared for whatever might come your way. So that is so.

Lovely and wonderful. And I wish all the best to whoever this person is. You know, most of the people in our private community use these anonymous handles, you know, because that's just what people do now. So this person's name was like Wandering Giraffe 3000. So it's not clear whether it's a actual giraffe or a man or woman. But listen, wandering giraffe three thousand, all the best. You

Go and you you do the very best that you can do and keep us posted. We want to know more. Let's talk about the people out there who are too nice. So weird because we talk all the time about how don't be a dick. Don't be a bitch. But there's a fine line, huh?

Morgan Stogsdill (03:10)

Yeah,

there is. There's a fine line, I think, between being kind and then giving everything away because you're too nice. And I actually kind of see this happening a lot in cases. And there's, you know, two different things. I think that you can be a kind, nice person. You can even defer to your spouse because maybe something really sets them off and you don't want to go down that path.

But the fine line is really crossed when you're effectively handing over things that you shouldn't hand over or that might hurt you in the future or giving away something just because it's easier to give it away than to fight the pain or the stress that is required to continue going down that road, even though you're entitled to it. And a lot of times I think that people kind of give up too early because they don't see the long game, they don't see the big picture.

all they know in the divorce at that point is it really hurts, it's not pleasant, and I want it to stop.

andrea (04:04)

Do you typically know when a client is being too nice?

Morgan Stogsdill (04:08)

Yes.

andrea (04:08)

Like what are the tells?

Morgan Stogsdill (04:09)

So a lot of times what happens is the client is just a nice, kind client to begin with, which is awesome. It's great for an attorney. And a lot of times, nice, kind clients are very intelligent clients and maybe they don't give themselves the benefit of the doubt. And they're just an even keeled kind of person. What the tells are is that a lot of times when we talk strategy on the phone or have a meeting with them, they're completely following it. They understand they're on board. But then

When you get done with it, whether it's a day later or a week later, they're double thinking the strategy. And usually it's because they're worried about how the other side is either going to perceive it or it's that the other side is applying pressure because they know that person is the nice, kind one in the relationship and they're easier to cave.

andrea (04:54)

Think there's also a fine line between being nice and then being a pushover. And I think that that's where we think we're just being nice, but really we're opening ourselves up to be manipulated. And it's really hard to see the difference between not being an aggressive animal and having a backbone and holding your line. I think that this is almost.

It's almost like an impossible setup because this is a person you were not thinking about a power struggle with, you know? This is not like a boss. This is not a coworker. This is your romantic partner, your life partner. So those weird power boundary lines have been blurred forever.

Morgan Stogsdill (05:41)

Well,

also, what you're saying makes a lot of sense. It's not just the power lines being blurred. Everyone had their role in the relationship. I do this, you do this, I behave this way, you know that about my personality, you behave this way.

It doesn't change when you get divorced. It almost makes it more difficult because, for instance, if you're the person who is the kind person, maybe the one that has been controlled in the past or lets the spouse, your your spouse make a lot of the decisions. In the divorce, you don't know any different. You don't know how to act any differently. And really what lawyers are asking you to do is kind of take a stand for yourself. Take a stand because you're entitled to this.

And so for those people who have been the person in the relationship that's the easygoing one, the kind one, now to take a stand for yourself is something so foreign to them that it's almost hard for them to get what they truly deserve.

andrea (06:33)

That's why we, the pushovers of the world, nod our head during the strategy meeting, right? Because a lot of us we're also being too nice in the meeting with the attorney because we won't say, excuse me, I'm not totally comfortable with this. This doesn't feel organic. This doesn't feel right to me. We're sitting there, we're being passive, we're nodding our head.

But then internally we're like, I don't like this. I don't see myself doing this. This feels too mean. This feels too aggressive. And I'm worried what will happen. I don't I get what you said, Morgan. I know like we don't, we don't do this for a living. And so we're not used to thinking this way. But it is so hard for some of us who are so hardwired to people, please.

Morgan Stogsdill (07:19)

people pleasing is a really difficult kind of position to be in when you're going through a divorce. Also, if you don't have a spouse that is reacting in a way that's super nasty or behaving inappropriately, it almost makes taking a stand that much tougher.

andrea (07:36)

Mm-hmm.

Morgan Stogsdill (07:36)

So

a lot of people, have the spouses that if you do one little thing in the divorce that maybe isn't a big deal in our minds as divorced lawyers, it might be a big deal in your spouse's mind. And then what do they do? They pop off, they go bananas, they are complete lunatics. And it makes the person who is maybe the more low-key kind person maybe get bad. And

You know, anger at times can be a really good thing in a divorce because it's sometimes that makes you stand up for yourself and get what you deserve. So there's all these dynamics that kind of come into play. And as divorce lawyers, we have to identify what kind of client we're dealing with. And I even have clients, you know, that I've had throughout the years that, like you said, Andrea, they go through the meeting, they're on board with the strategy, they don't really push back. And then a day or two later, they're like, whoa.

I

don't want to do that. I call them back and I say, Hey, did your spouse get to you? What's changed? Where are we at here? And a lot of times we find a happy medium there, but you have to have a lawyer that's knowing what kind of person you are and calling you out nicely to figure out truly where you want to end up. And then ultimately I've had these types of clients that if the divorce process is long enough, and unfortunately, divorce process in general can be a long time, they do at times stand up for themselves.

They they say that they're okay with one thing and then they sleep on it for a while. And maybe it's a few nights, maybe it's a week. And they come back and they say, you know what? I know that this is what I said I was okay with, but I just don't think I can live with this. And then we have to pivot the strategy.

andrea (09:06)

let's just say for the sake of this episode that we're pivoting because we're giving in. We're pivoting because we're allowing ourselves to be quote unquote too nice. And we're not standing up for what we really want and need.

What are the dangers, Morgan? Talk to me about what happens when we do this. I mean, I think we all know the obvious, right? Like you don't get what you want, but tell me about more of the nuanced things that can go on.

Morgan Stogsdill (09:34)

So a lot of times when people are giving in constantly, they're not thinking, like I said, long term.

So they're agreeing to things that might short term be placating the other side because they want to be nice or they want to be perceived as amicable or reasonable. But what they're not seeing is long term, that decision could really hurt them. For instance, let's just talk about a business. Let's say that husband and wife have a business. Let's say I represent Chad. We always talk about Chad and Brenda,

and Brenda is the spouse.

Chad is saying to us, hey, we have this business. Brenda's really running this business. And I'm saying to Chad, okay, we should value the business and and have some kind of a buyout of this business. And Chad's saying, Well, I don't really want to do that. That's going to hurt Brenda's feelings. I don't want to do that. We can push this off. Like we can Brenda will sell the business a few years from now. I just want to get it done with because this will really upset Brenda. What

Chad's not thinking about is so many things are out of the divorce lawyer's control, and you can only paper a contract so much. So we don't know what's going to happen two years down the road. Chad could have gotten effectively his portion of the business right now, but a few years down the road, Armageddon could happen. The business could implode. He could be leaving tons of money on the table. The business could be sued. He could be subject to that lawsuit.

There's

all these things, and that's just a business, you know, kind of option for somebody to think about, but it goes towards everything. It goes towards parenting time. What are you saying now that could hurt you in the future? I've seen people agree, and I always say, don't do it. Hey, you know what? Because Johnny is only 11 years old right now, it makes more sense that I, Brenda, have Johnny during the week because I want to make sure Johnny's doing great in school. So rather than do a different.

schedule or a 50-50 schedule that breaks up the time equally. What I'd rather do is Chad, you take Johnny on the weekends because that meets my need of making sure Johnny's what ready for school. I'm the better parent for that. I can get the homework done, all the stuff. And I say to her or to him, I say, Whoa, whoa, whoa, yeah, it might work now, but down in the future, it's not going to be okay. That's going to be your special time with your child to do things, to go places.

That's going to be when you see who who they're hanging out with, their friends, their activities. It's not a good idea. It's working right now, but it won't work in the future. And unfortunately, you know, Andrea, when you make these decisions because you're trying to be kind and you're not thinking long term, that long term does come at some point. And that's when it's really hard to change things.

andrea (12:16)

It comes sooner than you think it will. It really does. So we've got an acronym for you because if there's one thing that I have learned about Morgan in all of these years is that the woman loves an acronym. If there's ever an episode, that's it. Andrea,

Morgan Stogsdill (12:31)

is that really it? Okay.

andrea (12:34)

Andrea wrapped me an acronym. And so I did.

Andrea, come up with another educational way that everybody can remember what we're teaching them. So I did. we've got an acronym, and I'm gonna let Morgan explain to all of you what today's lesson is.

Morgan Stogsdill (12:53)

I was going to say that what you've learned about me is my A-type personality likes action steps, but you went so into the acronym. So let's go with it. Okay.

andrea (13:00)

I did. I did.

Morgan Stogsdill (13:01)

Bottom line, We want you to think before you speak or text. That's the ticket here. That's the acronym. Because guess what?

This acronym will help you remember what we want you to do. So the acronym is literally think.

What does it stand for? The T. We need you to think long-term, not short term. This is a long-term issue because anything you're agreeing to or negotiating or giving away has a long-term outcome. H, have a purpose.

Why are you negotiating this? Or if you are going to give something up because you're being kind, what's the purpose of it? Are you getting something? Are you just doing it to be kind? What is the purpose? I of the think acronym. It's okay to say no. It is okay. You can say no. And this is what I say all the time. And we always joke about not hiring shark attorneys because they're a big waste of your money. Shark attorneys scream the word no.

Good attorneys who creative or are creative, I should say, say the word no without screaming it, and they mean it. It's the same exact word. You don't have to scream it to get your point across. No means no in any language. So I is it's okay to say no. And nice isn't the same as fair. And yes, you can give things up at a time. And I'm not saying get every dollar because that's not the type of lawyer that I am. But what I'm saying is that.

You need to know what the baseline is of what you're entitled to before you give something up. So nice isn't the same as fair. And K, keep your leverage. Again, this is a chess game. I hate to call it that, but it is. If you give something up now, what does that mean for you in the overall scheme of leveraging, trying to get to where you really want to be in this divorce? That is the think acronym.

andrea (14:52)

I just came up with an idea for a new t-shirt line that we're gonna make that says you don't have to scream it to mean it.

Morgan Stogsdill (15:00)

Yes. because

sometimes when you say no and it's it it's not screaming it, it's not agitated, it almost has more effect in my mind than screaming it. it's more of a gravitas that comes out and it's like, whoa, that person is is serious. They don't need to scream it. They don't need to defend their position. They just said no.

andrea (15:22)

Because when you are screaming, people aren't really even hearing you. They're just hearing the anger. And it and then

Morgan Stogsdill (15:28)

Yep.

andrea (15:28)

the defense mechanism steps in, whether this is a professional disagreement or personal, we just shut down because nobody likes to be screamed at. So we're not even listening. So just say what you mean. But let's go back to the beginning of this acronym. Let's talk about thinking long term. This is probably the hardest because

For many reasons. I think one, it's really hard to think long term when you're getting a divorce because in the short term, you're in pain. And we don't like to be in pain as humans. So if you're in pain, we want to go out of the pain. So we want to make these instant decisions and make ourselves feel better. Thinking long term requires a calm and steady mind.

And if you're not calm or steady, you cannot think long term. So that's really, really tough. So, how do you think long term? Well, I just said it. You've got to get to a place where you are calm. So, whether that means you're not gonna have a conversation, you're not going to respond to their text, you're not gonna have a face-to-face conversation with them until you are in a space where you have done

the rest of the acronym. So it's almost a little bit backwards here. Until you know what your purpose is, don't have the conversation, which is the H of our acronym. So unless you have all of your ducks in a row, then you shouldn't you and Chad should not be in a back and forth conversation about the business or the parenting time.

Morgan Stogsdill (17:05)

And I just want to make one thing clear. If you are generally the kind, reasonable one in the relationship, you are going to be the one that is continually pressured by your ex or soon to be ex, because that's just how it's always been. So you need to know

andrea (17:19)

Human nature.

Morgan Stogsdill (17:20)

it is, it's human nature and it's not a bad thing. It's just how it is. And here's the thing, because I like to remind you if you're that person, the kind person, the nice person, when you walk out of that divorce and you have your integrity.

It means something. So remember that even if you're being kind and reasonable, if you have integrity, it does mean something. We just don't want you giving away everything that potentially could mean something or making a bad decision in the future just to get out of the pain right now.

andrea (17:47)

Right. And this is what we're talking about. You can be nice and kind and not give everything away. So again, in order to think long term, you've got to be calm and clear. You have to know your strategy and directly tied to the H, you gotta know your purpose. You have to know your purpose so that you're able to think long term. Let's talk about the it's okay to say no. That's pretty scary for people who are people pleasers.

It it kind of makes you wanna like not like throw up, but it makes your your your tummy like drop a little bit, right? Like

Morgan Stogsdill (18:22)

Yeah.

What I want to say to that is it doesn't always have to be you saying no either. It can come nicely from your attorney. That has just as much effect as you saying no. If you are the person that's really uncomfortable saying no, that's why you have a lawyer. Have your attorney convey the message. Sometimes if you've got someone on the other side who's really controlling and they know they can press on you, they're going to want to circumvent your attorney because they know that that's the shield between you and them.

And so what you have to do at times is use that attorney to nicely convey your position. And I will give an example. For instance, Chad and Brenda getting divorced. Chad comes to me and says, Hey, Morgan, I've kind of rethought this. I don't know if I really want to get a divorce. I kind of want to go to counseling and see how it how it goes down. Can you talk to Brenda's attorney and see how that goes and see if Brenda will agree to this just to put everything on hold? I go to Brenda's attorney, Brenda

Brenda's attorney talks to Brenda, comes back to me, and Brenda's attorney nicely tells me no. And it's not a no, go screw yourself, Chad. Brenda hates Chad. It's, hey, you know what? At this time, it's just not something that's something that Brenda wants to work on. It might happen in the future, but right now it's just not going to happen. That's a nice no. And it's a firm enough no where you you know where the path is.

It doesn't have to be Brenda tells Chad to go screw himself.

andrea (19:45)

Maybe Brenda said no because Chad's a bit pussy and went through the attorneys instead of talking to your wife yourself if you want to get back together. I mean, I'm just saying, if I got it

Morgan Stogsdill (19:57)

You would be shocked.

andrea (19:58)

But like, come on, Chad, do better. but I mean BTW, Brenda's already moved on, so she's not interested. But no. But here's what is interesting though. This is what came up for me when you were just talking about somebody circumventing.

Let's say it's not about getting back together. Let's say it's about holidays in the parenting plan, right? And Brenda is saying, Chad, I would really like to have every single Thanksgiving because you know my mother makes a pumpkin pie that is out of this world, and it'll be a travesty if my kids cannot have it every year. A goddamn travesty.

Can I please have every single Thanksgiving from here on out? And Chad, you know, and the attorney talk, and they're like, no, we really don't like that idea. Well, I'm sorry. It's gonna have to be every other Thanksgiving. The pumpkin pies will have to freeze and keep whatever. Then what can often happen is after the fact, Brenda goes back to Chad and says,

You know that really hurt my feelings that your attorney sent such an aggressive no back to us, even if it wasn't aggressive. You're coming around on the back end to see if then there's any wiggle room. I can't believe this, Chad, because you know how good my mom's pumpkin pies are, and you really want to devastate the kids like this. I can't believe you. So, Morgan.

I know what I would do in that situation if you're Chad, but what do you recommend people out there do when they're being pushed to say yes after they've already said no?

Morgan Stogsdill (21:41)

this is the perfect situation where I would recommend our Family Wizard. Because this is something that everything on our Family Wizard is put into the system. It is categorized. You can see who is doing what. So you can see when Chad is coming back around. Wait, was it Brenda that wants Brenda wants it? Okay.

andrea (21:59)

It was Brenda this time. Brenda and the pumpkin pie.

Morgan Stogsdill (22:02)

Brenda, Brenda wants that pumpkin pie so badly. So you can see her.

pressuring Chad on the email string through our Family Wizard. So when we have this kind of control and manipulation and these issues going on, then that's when I'm saying, hey, get on our Family Wizard because it's going to be less manipulative if they know that they're being monitored. And know this, Brenda and Chad, this is not a new thing. This, Andrea, I'm glad you brought it up because it happens all

andrea (22:30)

Thank you.

Morgan Stogsdill (22:30)

the time. I don't like what's coming from your lawyer. So I'm going to go straight to you. I don't like that

You're paying out bills to your lawyer. I'm gonna come straight to you.

andrea (22:38)

And I just thought of something else, literally as as you were saying that when as soon as you mentioned our family wizard, because when you first said it, I was like, okay, slow down there, kitty cat. I don't think it's that serious. But now I'm thinking, wait, hang on. The same type of behavior or motivation that has Brenda going back to Chad after she already got a no and saying, Did you not remember the pumpkin pie?

That's the same kind of energy that'll get the kids involved and say, mommy is so heartbroken because daddy will not let you come to grandma's every year for Thanksgiving. And now boom, the kids are in a loyalty conflict and they are in the middle of your shit.

Morgan Stogsdill (23:21)

Yep, agreed. Don't do it. Just do not get there.

This is why our Family Wizard works in these cases where there's somebody really, really nice or kind or reasonable. And then we've got one manipulator or the control is happening. That's where I like to put our family wizard on deck for that. All right. I want to hit the N and the K of the think acronym. And nice isn't the same as fair. That's just the the reality is you have a lawyer for a reason.

Your lawyer is there to counsel you as to what the law is. Your lawyer is there to counsel you on what creative options and solutions there are and what you're entitled to. Ultimately, yes, it's your decision of what to do. But there's a reason that some judges won't enter agreements if you're being too nice, if you're giving everything away, because it's not conscionable. It's not an agreement that should be entered in the court. It's not something that going back to the T that you're thinking about long term.

So remember, nice is not the same as being fair. And K, keep your leverage. Keep your leverage. What I'm saying to you is, if Brenda really wants the kids to go for mom's pumpkin pie, and you're like, maybe that's okay. I really don't care. And your lawyer says I wouldn't recommend it. And you're like, I still don't really care. Maybe what you want to ask your lawyer is, is there something I can get in return? Maybe I love Christmas Eve every year because that's my holiday with my family.

So at that point, that's what we're talking about is don't just give away the farm for nothing. You might want to think about what your leverage points are and if you can get something that's fair on your side for what you're giving up.

andrea (24:55)

I'll take that one step further. If I were you, Chad, I would not give Brenda every Thanksgiving on paper because you don't know where your life is going to be a few years from now. Maybe you're gonna get remarried to Nancy. And maybe Nancy's pumpkin pie kicks Brenda's mom's pumpkin pie's ass. And maybe you want your kids to have that pumpkin pie. So what I would do is I would keep everything.

kosher on paper. But then if you have a year where you don't have big plans for Thanksgiving, you could say to Brenda, Hey, this is technically my year for Thanksgiving, but would you like to take the kids to your mom's for pumpkin pie? That way you're not giving up the farm, but you are also, I don't want to say rewarding good behavior because we are humans, we're not animals, we're not dogs, but

This is also human nature. We tend to be more generous when somebody's not constantly coming at you, right? So that's that's the one thing I want to say in terms of keep your leverage. My other thought in terms of nice is not the same as fair. You don't have to give them everything they want and be a dick. So you can be a kind person and say, I'm

I understand that you're frustrated. And I'm I'm sorry that this is this is a frustrating situation. And this is what it is. So you're saying it in a nice way. So you're being nice and it might not be fair, or you're being fair and they're they're construing it as not kind. It's a weird, sort of gray, nuanced world, and basically you're not gonna make everybody happy. So just know

Morgan Stogsdill (26:40)

Amen.

andrea (26:41)

that.

Morgan Stogsdill (26:41)

Amen to that. All right. Remember, divorce is the marathon. It is not a sprint. Every day is not a good day when you are in the middle of a divorce or you're prepping to get divorced. Okay. It's just not. And that's okay. Some days it's day by day, other days it's hour by hour. But know this. You're in it and you're going to get through this.

andrea (27:01)

And if you think before you speak or text with your soon-to-be ex, you are going to make a lot less mistakes. Promise me, I have lived through this. You're gonna have days where this acronym is gonna be a lot easier to apply. And then you're gonna have some days where this acronym is going to feel next to impossible. Listen to this episode more than once on those days.

We are here for you. We are going to support you and get you through this shit show, I promise you.

Morgan Stogsdill (27:31)

And if you need more community, go to our private community. It's private. It is free and it is very, very active, and we love that. Also, go online, get our DCC, our divorce crash course. When you buy it, it's called DCC, not Divorce Crash Course, on purpose, so that it can be confidential, but it will give you really valuable information.

andrea (27:52)

And friends, above everything else, just know you are

going to get to the other side. You might be in the very middle of the ocean right now, but keep swimming. I promise you're gonna get there. You have got this.

Morgan Stogsdill (28:06)

And we, my friends, have got you.