0:00:02 Vonnie Estes: Welcome to Fresh Takes on Tech, the podcast where we explore what’s next in food and agriculture through the lens of innovation and technology. I’m your host, Bonnie Estes. Each episode, I sit down with the people who are driving change in the produce industry. From entrepreneurs and scientists to industry leaders and policymakers. We talk about what’s working, what’s not, and what needs to happen next to move the produce industry forward.

0:00:30 Vonnie Estes: This isn’t about hype. It’s about real conversations with people who are making a difference. Let’s get into it. Welcome to Fresh Takes on Tech, where we explore how innovation is reshaping the fresh produce industry. From field to the policy table. Today we’re kicking off a new season focused on one big question. How is science shaping the future of produce policy? And what does that mean for health, nutrition, and production?

0:00:58 Vonnie Estes: To help set the stage, I’m joined by someone who’s deep in policy trenches, Rebecca Adcock. She’s worked across ag science and regulation at the highest levels, and today she’s helping us connect the dots between Washington science talk and real world industry impact. Hi, Rebecca. Welcome to the show.

0:01:18 Rebeckah F. Adcock: Hi. Thank you so much.

0:01:20 Vonnie Estes: Vonnie, you’ve worn a lot of hats in ag policy from USDA to Capitol Hill and beyond. Instead of reading your resume, I’d love to hear it straight from you. What’s your lens on this work? How did you find yourself at the intersection of science, agriculture, and policy?

0:01:37 Rebeckah F. Adcock: So it’s a circuitous route. I did not ever plan on being a policy professional living in Washington or navigating the federal government. I started out actually as an environmental scientist cleaning up landfills. And I’ve been a vet tech, and I sort of started my world in science and then ended up getting a law degree and finding my way to the agriculture industry long ago and have sort of been sucked in ever since. But foundationally throughout the work, you know, coming back to science and law and things were a little more predictable and also, I think very reliable for the business world are things that, you know, have been threads throughout my career.

0:02:18 Vonnie Estes: So that’s great to hear. I really enjoy working with you and whenever you have an opinion or a view or can enlighten us on what’s going on in Washington, it’s always worth listening to. I appreciate having you as a colleague.

0:02:32 Rebeckah F. Adcock: Well, good. I’m glad to hear that you’ve been.

0:02:35 Vonnie Estes: In the room where it happens. What should the produce industry be paying attention to right now in the policy space, especially when it comes to science and tech?

0:02:45 Rebeckah F. Adcock: I say this for Everyone that will listen. Brush up on your civics lessons. You know, the interaction of the different branches of government and what their roles are, how they interplay with each other, you know, what the three branches of government do for each other and how they work and how sometimes they don’t work is as important as what you hear reported in the news. You know, the news and journalism, bless their hearts, but you know, they like to report the things that kind of get us inflamed, and they want to attract your attention, so you will tune in.

0:03:19 Rebeckah F. Adcock: And sometimes the truth or the matters that are really the most important in the dynamic aren’t necessarily the ones that you will see reported most directly. And that is, it really is important. Why organizations like IFPA associations, some of the sources of information that are out there that aren’t just trying to get your attention, but that are trying to provide you information and guidance to navigate, can be very important resources for grounding you and really sort of better understanding how decisions get made, where the options are, you know, where there aren’t options.

0:04:00 Rebeckah F. Adcock: Sometimes you have to adapt. Just like in the business world, in the policy arena, we have to adapt to the cards that are dealt. You play the hand that you have, and that requires some nimbleness. It requires innovation. Certainly science is in the mix of those innovation options. And those are, if there’s one piece of information that I would like people to understand is sometimes what you’re seeing in the news and the reports and some of the more public information is not always exactly as it seems.

0:04:34 Rebeckah F. Adcock: So that can be both good and bad. Hopefully it’s mostly a little bit of comfort.

0:04:39 Vonnie Estes: Someone can actually lie on the Internet. Is that what you’re saying? Yes.

0:04:45 Rebeckah F. Adcock: You know, the beauty of this nation is that you can say just about any, just about anything you want, just about anytime you want, unless you’re under oath. The downside is you can say just about anything you want, anytime you want to whomever you want. And it is up to us as individuals to, you know, try to unpack that and sort it out.

0:05:05 Vonnie Estes: Yeah, and we certainly, your voice and other voices in IFPA, we try to do that for our members. So from your vantage point, are we seeing a shift in how this administration values science and agriculture policy, or is it more of the same with a new face?

0:05:22 Rebeckah F. Adcock: No, it is different. And it is different in ways that are not necessarily unique to this administration. This administration, I believe, is channeling, and not just me, others as well believe that it is really channeling a change. Some societal changes, some economic shifts. Not just in the U.S. but to some extent globally there. I’m not an economist, I’m not a geopolitical analyst, but if you listen to some of those folks that are very smart and study these sorts of things, they will lead you in various opinionated versions that we are at a time of great transition and shift.

0:06:08 Rebeckah F. Adcock: You know, the President will call it a reset, but that’s his version, I think, of much larger issues that have to do with just society and population shifts and economic cycles and all sorts of things that are, you know, very confusing and a little bit intimidating, I’m sure, to all of us who are living through it without necessarily, you know, lifting up and looking at it from the 50.5,000 foot view.

0:06:34 Rebeckah F. Adcock: But it’s not your imagination. Things are shifting in a different direction. That does not mean that people are walking away from science. It does mean that people may be looking more broadly at science from different perspectives. You know, there’s been sort of a scientific class perhaps that has been relied upon over the last few decades. I think there is a desire for folks to maybe expand. Who is involved in that? Are we looking at all the right places?

0:07:07 Rebeckah F. Adcock: Are we listening to all the right, all the people that we should, or if there’s differing points of view, should we allow those folks into the system for the science, for the process to sort out and allow them in? I’m not necessarily saying that’s right, wrong or otherwise, but that is, I think, the posture of are we asking all the right questions of all the right people, making sure that no sort of interest or part of those that could have a stake in the decision making of the federal government, that no one has too heavy of a hand and that there are others, you know, sort of that contrarian point of view that is allowed into the system to sort it out.

0:07:49 Rebeckah F. Adcock: So a little bit of that is probably a fair critique. However, you know, you can’t set aside science you don’t like just because you don’t like it either. So that really is. That is. That is the place where we are sort of moving along, trying to determine and encourage the administration not to go so far afield as to just, you know, let people into the system because they have a different point of view.

0:08:15 Rebeckah F. Adcock: It has to be a different point of view that is scientifically valid. So. So those are the conversations that I know our industry is having and others in the business community and the agricultural community are having with the administration right now.

0:08:29 Vonnie Estes: Yeah, I think. And that’s, you know, it just comes down to who do you listen to? And just because someone holds an office, does that make them science based? And so I think it’s a, yeah, it’s. So when it comes to real policy, how does science based regulation show up in Washington? And who decides what science counts and who gets to get it be heard?

0:08:51 Rebeckah F. Adcock: Well, and that is, you know, as, as, as those in science know, science isn’t quite as set as we like it to be. You know, we always like to say, well, it’s the science, but we all know that science has its own level of politics, even within the scientific community. And you know, you can take a data set, you can take numbers, you can, you can take information and send it through different sorts of filters for different sorts of purposes and come up with different sorts of results.

0:09:23 Rebeckah F. Adcock: That is science. And so when you take something that has a level of ambiguity in a big picture, maybe not at the micro level, but at the macro level, and you put it into a system that has its own layer of politics, you know, people who have a certain way of thinking and, you know, they pick the science that suits their way of thinking and then you have another group that comes in that has a different way of thinking and selects the science that more closely matches theirs.

0:09:57 Rebeckah F. Adcock: This is an issue that happens really with most administrations is we have a little bit of tweak of a point of view, a little bit of preference for these experts versus those experts. And what has, I think what the attempt in the federal government has been to try to structure regulatory bodies, regulatory agencies, scientific institutions in a way that allows room sort of for all those voices at the same time in continuity or in continuum.

0:10:34 Rebeckah F. Adcock: There are some that will argue that maybe that hasn’t worked out so well, that in fact you have gotten too much in one direction at this agency, too much in one direction at that agency sometimes that is not always in inconsistent view with whoever is sitting in the White House. And that leads to distrust and a challenge in getting things done through the point of view of who’s sitting in that white, in the White House or in Congress.

0:11:07 Rebeckah F. Adcock: And so those really, I think, have that, that, that has come to a head with this administration. I’m not sure it wasn’t going to come to a head eventually anyway because perhaps, you know, some agencies have just developed so much of a mind of their own that they’re a bit inflexible in accepting contrary points of view whatsoever. And unless you’re matching perfectly with them, then you’re going to be at odds.

0:11:33 Rebeckah F. Adcock: And so bringing in any differing points of view or any sort of questioning of where they’re going proved to be almost impossible. And this is no defense for the manner necessarily in way that the administration is going about trying to address those, those issues. But you can definitely look across the federal government and find pockets within some of the institutions where very hard line on a specific way of thinking, you know, and shall not waiver regardless of what, you know, was put in front of them or what sort of might change, you know, as we know how we understand science does change over time.

0:12:16 Rebeckah F. Adcock: And some of those organizations have not always been receptive to that or they’ve gotten so trapped up in the politics or litigation or other things that have required them to really dig their heels in. So you’re seeing some of that play out in a way that the general public, the business community, you know, unless you’re living in and breathing in Washington, if it seems confusing and crazy is because you haven’t had to see that process play out.

0:12:42 Rebeckah F. Adcock: So it’s not your imagination, you’re not crazy. But you know, there are some things happening in parts of the government that, that probably haven’t been true to that aim of finding balance, making sure you’ve got plenty of people in the room that are willing to ask the hard questions of people who believe differently to make sure you’re finding that best common ground result. I think that’s what this administration wants to do. I’m not fully convinced that they’re going about it in the right way, but I do think that their aim is to try to right that ship and, and get other voices into the system.

0:13:19 Rebeckah F. Adcock: And I appreciate that it feels very chaotic otherwise. And I, and I. And it’s probably very hard on those institutions and I appreciate that as well.

0:13:28 Vonnie Estes: There’s a lot of different directions we could go with that, but I think I’ll move into innovation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s a very big topic and I know there’s a lot of emotion around it, period.

0:13:40 Rebeckah F. Adcock: Yeah.

0:13:41 Vonnie Estes: Especially when, you know, those of us that have worked close to certain parts of the government and see a lot of the layoffs as being pretty difficult. But let’s talk a little bit about innovation. So how do you think with the chaos and what’s happening, how can we speed up innovation? And do you think some of the changes might allow us to speed up innovation things around gene editing or automation without tripping over some of these outdated laws that we’ve had?

0:14:10 Rebeckah F. Adcock: Yeah, I think ironically that is the key is, is I think that there will be, if for no other reason, that, that they are, you know, attempting to sort of bring down or contain some of the structures that were very aggressively regulatory that maybe sort of held things back. I think this administration is, is willing to let people run a little harder, a little faster, with a little more, you know, benefit of the doubt than previous administrations have even the first time they were in office.

0:14:46 Vonnie Estes: So what would that look like? What would be an example?

0:14:48 Rebeckah F. Adcock: You know, I think things like on biotechnology, gene editing, bioengineering. I think that there is definitely an expectation that, you know, this is an industry that’s very interested in the promise of tech, things like AI things like things that allow the US you know, very US focused group. So if you’re sitting in the tech industry and the agritech industry in the U.S. i think that you will get a considerable amount of Runway with this administration to do things that allows the nation to better feed itself more efficiently, more effectively, more affordably and to do some interesting and creative things. Everything from building the infrastructure.

0:15:34 Rebeckah F. Adcock: The administration seems to be very focused on sort of regulatory reform, permitting, speeding up permitting and some of the things that are required just for that, those hard structures that are required either in farming or just in business in general. So I think that there are actually probably a lot of parts of tech and innovation that are ripe for, for promotion and really kind of being allowed the room to experiment and run.

0:16:08 Rebeckah F. Adcock: Now obviously, you know, for your own risk and liability, I don’t suggest you get out there and, and get reckless because that could, you know, they certainly have the ability to regulate or re regulate wherever they like. But I do think that the general tone, the general propensity is to support American tech innovation.

0:16:31 Vonnie Estes: So looking at climate and sustainability, they’re very top of mind. There’s been a lot of conversation and changes in language and how we think about in this administration what policies are being shaped around that right now and how much of that is actually grounded in science.

0:16:48 Rebeckah F. Adcock: Yeah. So you know, this administration has a, a conflicting or challenging relationship with things that are solely climate related. And that’s not so much, not a dismissal that the climate changes and that we have to adapt and those sorts of focuses. They do believe that it’s overblown and they don’t believe earnestly that there’s a whole lot we can do to stop it when lots of parts of the rest of the world really aren’t doing as much now for, for agriculture, food production, that’s a different situation. We’re living it and breathing it every day. Right.

0:17:26 Rebeckah F. Adcock: We have to constantly adapt. We, we see the changes and for whatever source, for whatever reason in our operations. And so we’re having to adapt and we need to understand for the purposes of the larger global politics and where many countries still are very focused on climate specific issues, how we’re going to continue to evolve, how we’re going to continue to adapt, how we’re going to continue to meet the needs, especially on the production end of things.

0:17:58 Rebeckah F. Adcock: Logistics also as well, to an extent. We’re seeing quite a bit of chaos still in the supply chain on logistics. A lot of that’s coming from the US as well again, and that’s not something that’s going away. And so the industry really is, I think, going to have to rise to that occasion. And I think largely within its own resources. And even if it means we have to start speaking differently about things that, where climate still is a concern, really the larger how do we maintain our sustainability within our ecosystems, within our natural worlds and how we sort of meet those needs within the sector is not something we can ever give up on because it’s too fundamental to the work that we’re doing. So it doesn’t really matter what you call it.

0:18:45 Rebeckah F. Adcock: The result is the same is how are you going to continue to grow produce productively with all the tools, new, old and get things, get people what they need, where they need it and you know, the best, most affordable form.

0:19:00 Vonnie Estes: Well, I think it, I mean that makes sense as far as our industry, if you’re looking at produce and really adapting to what’s happening. And so I think that’s what I hear you say is that what we need to continue to do is be able to grow profitably and adapt to the fact that temperatures are changing, you know, droughts are happening, more rain, more drought fluctuations are bigger. So what about, so that, that’s kind of business and it’s the hard fact of business and how hard to stay in business.

0:19:28 Vonnie Estes: But when we think about what our responsibility is and how we still engage in actually slowing down our climate change, that seems to be a topic that’s kind of getting taken off the table. What do you see happening, I think.

0:19:44 Rebeckah F. Adcock: In the U.S. yeah, I think that is, that is fair in the US that, that is not the, that’s not the motivator for paying attention to sustainability, for conservation, for adaptation. You know, all the reasons that, that, you know, you’ll, you’ll see the policy shift in the US that is not the case in other countries, however. So I really think it depends on where people are doing business. I think, you know, we’re going through this process with USDA where they’re, where they’re relooking at some of the investments that the Biden administration was making in climate, Climate Smart program.

0:20:20 Rebeckah F. Adcock: And they didn’t. Yeah, I think they looked at some of those programs, said, wait a minute, you know, some of this is really doing a lot of good for producers. Just in and add it, excuse me, adapting and becoming more profitable, becoming more sustainable across the board ecologically and you know, from a business perspective. So let’s not disrupt these, these programs completely. We do want people to think about them differently, to speak about them differently.

0:20:45 Rebeckah F. Adcock: But we see that overall they’re doing a lot of good across the board from a sustainability perspective, which includes climate. So I think you’re seeing some, at least moderation and it really is to some extent just nomenclature. It’s cultural. Like so many other things that we deal with in the business world are, you know, you speak differently now in the US about sustainability than perhaps you would speak in the US and that is just, you know, sort of a business adjustment that I would encourage people to make. But the goals really and the, and the opportunities, you know, I think are still there.

0:21:23 Rebeckah F. Adcock: And certainly for our own self interest within the industry, the produce industry, we have to, you know, keep your eye on that ball.

0:21:30 Vonnie Estes: So let’s move to another hot potato topic, Labor.

0:21:35 Rebeckah F. Adcock: You never talk about that smarter. This is a lot harder. Sustainability.

0:21:40 Vonnie Estes: Everyone talks about ag labor shortages, but what science or data are policymakers using to shape immigration or either mechanization policies.

0:21:51 Rebeckah F. Adcock: And is it enough? It’s interesting I focus on, on the interaction with the US government in my role, but I do interact, you know, with folks globally on a fairly regular basis. And one of the first meetings I had when I joined you at IFPA was a lunch just incidentally with the UK Farmers union, which is a bit like the UK Farm Bureau for those who are not familiar. And they spoke about, you know, well, so you tell me, what are your top issues in the UK and labor was at the top of their list.

0:22:30 Rebeckah F. Adcock: So it’s amazing, especially for first, the dynamic between first world and second third world countries. You often see in the first world countries that are active in food production, you know, they too tend to have lower rates of unemployment. They too tend to have to bring farm labor, you know, some, maybe some of the less desirable work out there, even at, you know, a pretty decent wage, they see challenges and they are moving people around the world, bringing people in through, you know, hopefully legally through programs to get that support so when we talk about labor, it is not just a US Issue, it is a challenge everywhere, including in South America.

0:23:13 Rebeckah F. Adcock: The Mexicans will say, you know, you’re taking all of our people across the border. And now everyone is having, we’re having to pull people into our border to, to do our own production. So, you know, how we are doing dealing with it in the US Is, is interesting. It gets the who’s legal versus who is illegal. Why are people coming here? You know, what assurances do we have? What is the need? We know that, you know, if we were, if, if everyone who was not of this legal or illegal, everyone who was not of, of, you know, American citizenship, working on farms, left the farms, we would have a dramatic drop in food production and certainly, you know, a potential catastrophic collapse for many of our farm owners and production facilities.

0:24:04 Rebeckah F. Adcock: So how we are trying to get at that is to try, at least in the US to describe the H2A program, some of the legal access points for farm labor for those who are willing, for those who are vetted, for those who are sponsored to try to find a way for both Congress to reform the fundamental law and the administration to form to at least reshape the regulations they currently have in effect on that law in a way that gives us more flexibility to allow more of the vetted, you know, sponsored tracked individuals who want to be in this country to do the work for a fair wage, giving guarantees to them, you know, housing, health care, a fair and good working wage to be here to do that work that is so critically, critically needed for the U.S. it is the number one limiting factor. If we’re talking about, you know, we’ve told the administration, look, if you want to bring where we can more production back to the US or if you believe we have lost production overseas, then one of the number one factors is the cost of labor and the availability of labor, even when, even when the cost shoots way up because of the marketplace and if we don’t have those folks who are willing to do it and Americans are at a very low late of low rate of unemployment or employment, the unemployment rate is very low. Say that again.

0:25:34 Rebeckah F. Adcock: You’re just, this is not the work that your average American is willing to do at pretty much any price. And so are we going to bring, you know, good willing people into the country legally and allow them to come do the work that we need to have done? It’s a mutually beneficial situation and we believe it actually is a very good way of securing the border because you know exactly who’s coming in, you know exactly where they are, and, you know, you can figure out if they, if there’s a, a path they like to choose to come here permanently, then you have all the more information to determine whether that’s. That person is, you know, appropriate for that. So there’s just a lot of things we think could be changed and improved, at least at the US Level. Hopefully that set a good marker for those in other countries looking for similar situations as well. But it is, it really is for the long term and the health of certainly US Agriculture issue number one for us.

0:26:29 Vonnie Estes: Yeah, well, we could go deeper into that. I have two last questions before I let you get back to your very busy schedule. So one is just if you could touch briefly on do you think that public perception and kind of consumer views of science in food, around GMOs, traceability, nutrition, are shaping policy behind the scene and who has those influences?

0:26:55 Rebeckah F. Adcock: So I think they do, and they always have. What the influencing community is, despite their outsized presence in our life, is really a very small population of the world. And, you know, I do think you’re beginning to see a little bit of backlash against, you know, the, the assuming everything that you hear or read or influenced about is, you know, just by people who are earnestly thinking their own thoughts. We know, we know now it’s a, you know, it’s quite the business culture about who can get access to an influencer to promote their way of thinking.

0:27:36 Rebeckah F. Adcock: But it’s always existed. It’s just existing in a different and I guess probably accelerated and maybe dramatic form. I think that fundamentally there is again, back to some of those cultural shifts that we’re seeing, a, a sort of a culture of suspicion about a lot of things. And I think part of that is because there is so much access to information and nobody knows who to trust. And that means they’re not sure they can trust the government. They’re not sure they can trust the newscast. They’re not sure they can trust what they hear or read when they, you know, see it on their cell phone.

0:28:18 Rebeckah F. Adcock: And, and what that does, I think, is it does shape the influence that they have over their elected officials. And I think we’ve seen that go. We’ve seen gone from what, in less than 10 years, sort of record low voter turnout, you know, decreasing over time. At least as I was growing up, you know, into my adulthood, sort of despite the fact the population was going up, the percentage of the population that was voting or engaged politically was kind of going down or, or at least barely maintaining itself on a good year.

0:28:49 Rebeckah F. Adcock: But you’ve seen a sort of a turnover of that. And I believe those trends are starting to tick up. And I think that may be, you know, people’s response to feeling like they don’t have control, feeling like they don’t trust, feeling like, you know, they, they want to gain information and gain influence and maybe feel like they have a little more power since they have their little black box in their hand and they think, you know, they know a lot about a lot of things.

0:29:14 Rebeckah F. Adcock: So it is having an effect. And you know, anytime that the voting population has a very strong opinion about something, whether it has been well informed or misinformed, we do see it show up. The good news is it does tend to be moderated by, you know, I guess, cooler minds or maybe better informed folks. There are also those that would say that, you know, shaking things up every now and then isn’t, you know, the institutions, especially those in Washington and probably in other capitals around the world, you know, have been sort of in status quo for a very long time and have been untouchable for a very long time.

0:30:01 Rebeckah F. Adcock: And perhaps the only way you shake things up is to do it, you know, fairly dramatically. That is going to create a lot of uncertainty and concern and chaos for a bit. But at the end of the day there, you know, there’s still nations to run and there’s still work that needs to be done thinking, you know, things like food safety, things like, you know, important regulatory actions that, you know, guarantee health and safety and environmental integrity and things like that.

0:30:30 Rebeckah F. Adcock: And I think, you know, the government, the, those same people who are influencing their elected officials now, I think will, you know, continue to demand that there’s some accountability in those spaces as well.

0:30:45 Vonnie Estes: One last quick question. What should growers, shippers and retailers in our industry be doing right now to shape science driven policies that work for them, not just at them?

0:30:58 Rebeckah F. Adcock: Yes. Well, none of you have the time to be this, and this is not advocacy for the sake of it. I’m assuming most people don’t have the time to, you know, maintain a full time presence in Washington to influence their elected officials. That’s your job. But there are, you know, and it’s not just IFPA. There are many other groups, associations, there’s many other ways. If nothing else. If you were in the business world and you are a serious business leader in your community, in your state, at least in the United States, you should try to establish a relationship with at least your member of Congress. You know, those are much smaller geographical areas and yes, the member themselves, but they also have district directors, they have state offices. They have people in your area that are there to communicate with you, that are there and accessible to you.

0:31:56 Rebeckah F. Adcock: Develop relationships there. If you can, you know, develop a relationship with your state senator, do it at your local and state level as well. Like maintain relationships, respectful but specific relationships, and don’t wear them out. Don’t, don’t talk them about every single topic, but the things that are very important to you personally, professionally, on the matters that are being dealt with either in Washington or in your state capitol, talk to those people. They all have emails, they all have phones, they all have thousands of ways that you can communicate with them.

0:32:34 Rebeckah F. Adcock: In addition to, you know, if you want to be active, we certainly are always looking for strong member leaders and advocates within the IFPA community. We have many, many allied organizations representing products or regional specialty crop groups that are extremely active and we are all much stronger and influential when we are rowing in the same direction and, you know, speaking from the same playbook.

0:32:58 Rebeckah F. Adcock: So there’s lots of ways that you can get involved. You are not powerless, you know, keyboard warriors on Facebook, you know, maybe change a few minds. But it’s it be if you can be a key keyboard warrior with your member of Congress in a thoughtful and meaningful way, I think you, you’ll find you’d probably do a lot more good. Excellent.

0:33:18 Vonnie Estes: Thanks, Rebecca. I really appreciate your time and I appreciate your calm and educated guidance through these changing times. It’s really helpful to have someone to go to to ask what is going on and what does this mean? So I really appreciate it. Thank you.

0:33:34 Rebeckah F. Adcock: Thank you.

0:33:37 Vonnie Estes: Thanks for tuning in to fresh takes on tech. If you enjoyed the conversation, please subscribe, rate and share it with your network. You can find more episodes and resources at freshproduce.com I’m Vonnie Estes. See you next time for another fresh take.