PJ Ellis (00:00)

so today on Witton Grid, episode 31, we're joined by a man whose job for the last 20 plus years has been simple on paper, but probably brutally hard in reality, making strangers laugh.

a BBC comedy writer behind shows millions of us know and love from Miranda to Citizen Khan, my family, Bluestone 42. He's also a speaker, author and what he calls a stand up theologian, exploring big life questions through humour, storytelling and culture. Welcome to the pod, Mr. James Carey.

James Cary (00:34)

Thanks very much indeed. You got through pretty much all of it. Well done. Thanks for listening everyone.

Andy (00:36)

Come. ⁓

PJ Ellis (00:37)

Right, that's it, that's the end. We're done.

Andy (00:41)

Thank

PJ Ellis (00:42)

You've done that before, Matt, I can hear it in your voice. James, Let's start from the beginning, Matt. Who is James Carey?

James Cary (00:48)

Yes, so I am a writer, if you ask me, because I'm a man, therefore I define myself by my job. And then I go, I'm a father, I'm a husband, I'm a son, I'm a brother, blah, blah, blah, blah. But I'm obsessed with words and writing, but in particular, comedy, laughter. And as a kid, just growing up, I only really wanted to watch comedy and cricket. I didn't really see the point of anything else.

so I've just turned 50 last year, so I grew up watching stuff like MASH and Cheers on the TV and like the great, some of the greatest sitcoms of all time. And it's just the rhythm of them being funny and everything just seems so effortless and brilliant. so I think when you look back, you see all of the decisions that you've made, you realize that I was trying to get into this all along. So I was quite clever at school and I thought, great, I'll apply to Cambridge and go to Cambridge. Cause that's where Fry and Laurie went.

and I didn't get in. So I went off to Durham, like lots of people who failed to get into Cambridge and had a brilliant time. But then looking back, you just think, I wanted to go to Cambridge because of the comedians and the comedy, wasn't because I was clever. It was because I thought this is, so you look back and you see all these little different choices you made. It's always been about scripted comedy for me and sometimes unscripted, but I just can't let it go.

Andy (02:10)

So I'm really interested to hear how do you get into that as a career and sustain that as a career James?

James Cary (02:16)

It's an excellent question and one I had to ask my agent about recently. ⁓ So the pathways in were different 25 years ago before the internet was any good and before always on broadband. So, and again, back then in the late nineties, so I'm the son of a dairy farmer and I went to a school where most of the alumni were foreign missionaries, vickers and bishops in the Church of England.

And so although I'm fine with that and I'm a Christian and everything, there wasn't really an obvious pathway into comedy. And when I was at university, I was writing a lot and I just thought, I didn't even realize that you could, that was a job. know, that somebody does that somebody actually wrote that. And even when I did understand that I didn't quite get that that could be me. I could do that. And so again, looking back, I wrote a fan fiction episode of Blackadder in my gap year.

set the battle of Hastings, imagining what would have happened if Baldrick had fired the arrow that hits Harold in the eye. You know what I've never found it since and I'd probably be very ashamed to look back at it now. But back then you sort of didn't really know. But the one thing I did know was that if you can write sketches and jokes for the radio, then Radio 4 have got a show called Weekending, which isn't very funny.

doesn't sound funny because it sounds like every sketch has got a week ending, which is pretty much what it was. But it was where a lot of people got started and there was a little, there was a little glimmer way in through that. So through that and my experiences at university, writing sketches and stuff, I kind of got a little foot in the door and then I got a little step on the ladder and then I got my chin on it. And then all those little things, just one thing leads to another. The next big thing was the Edinburgh festival was probably a much bigger deal.

in the past and it is now. So I did a show, I did a couple of shows with the university and then in 1999 we got nominated for what was called the Perrier Best Newcomer Award. That opened a few doors, got some meetings and then through that really pitched my sitcom called Think the Unthinkable, which was the first sitcom I did for Radio 4 about management consultants. And that kind of one thing led to another to another,

Andy (04:36)

Yeah, I've got to, I've got to jump in. As a consultant of 18 years with my ⁓ co-founded consultancy business. I did see that in the research and unfortunately I couldn't dive into any of the episodes. Can you just give, no, can you give us a bit of a view because people are very cynical about consultants. Yeah, it's a very popular job to go into. I'd love your perspective and any stories. Yeah, love it. Bring it on.

PJ Ellis (04:38)

All of a sudden you're going to do what you're about to say.

James Cary (04:49)

Just as well.

PJ Ellis (05:00)

You sure? Are you sure?

James Cary (05:02)

Well, here's

the thing. I came up with the idea because, you know, I went to a half decent university and then people went out of my university and started becoming management consultants. And when I was about 25, I thought, hang on, some chimp I was at university with is now telling somebody twice his age how to run their business. What? You know, they go off and work for McKinsey or whatever. That is completely mad. And so

I went in with that and I thought, I tell you what, the Radio 4 audience would love it if I had a load of chinless wonders who think they know a little bit. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing was always my kind of a little watchword for that show where they've got a little good idea and then they try to apply it in the wrong way. But the thing is, I read books about management and business and that kind of stuff. And my sister was a management consultant and I talked to her a little bit. The more books I read about management consultants,

The more in favour I became of consultants and the more enraged I was by people who were told, you need to change this in your company or you're dead. And they wouldn't do it. People don't, they don't want to know. And quite often they would bring consultants in so that you can be the bearer of bad news and tell them what they already know.

So I have very mixed views and I think overall consultants do an awful lot of good because they have those awkward conversations that people are not really prepared to have within the business. But the thing is, back in the late 90s, early 2000s,

The idea that you would push the envelope or run something off a flagpole, that was self-evidently ludicrous and funny and would make a room full of people laugh out loud. And it was recorded and you can listen to it on the archives of Radio 4. Now people just use those terms without irony at all. What's happened? You know, you can push the envelope now and people won't even blink. They won't just say, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, hang on. Why are you talking like an idiot? It's just...

PJ Ellis (06:54)

Yeah.

James Cary (07:05)

The consultants have won in that sense and to be honest, I'm not even sure that's altogether a bad thing.

PJ Ellis (07:10)

consultants have won man and I will use one of those terms that I said now without the ironic twist in let's circle back let's circle back yeah let's circle back to your days in Durham when you are thinking of the Battle of Baldrick and what have you. Why theology? I think you've answered it in your upbringing but why did you go into theology James?

Andy (07:10)

Brilliant.

James Cary (07:15)

Yeah, circle back. There we go.

Partly because I thought it would be easier to get into Cambridge. Well, that didn't work. But secondly, I think I've always been interested in the spiritual theological aspects of history. So I applied first to do history. And in the end, a lot of my degree was history, but with a theological ⁓ angle to it. And actually now, over there on my desk, there's just an absolute ton of books about religious history and I sort of can't leave it alone. But I think it overlaps with my...

PJ Ellis (07:34)

Yeah, fair enough.

James Cary (08:00)

professional interest because the thing is a sitcom writer that I'm coming back to again and again, and I'm now writing more. I'm writing a book at the moment called Field Notes of a Sitcom Writer about the process of me writing a sitcom at the moment, which I'm going to try and get read through in front of industry and all that kind of stuff. The thing that's everything in a sitcom is the motivation. Why is someone doing the thing? And it is all because of your values.

because of your, essentially your God. What is your God? What is your idol? Obviously God says in the 10 Commandments, you shall have no other gods before me. I'm fine with that. But in sitcom land, everybody has a God. And this is something I'd love to think about more in an office context in real life. Maybe I'll become a consultant. Wouldn't that be an amazing turnaround? But I'm always interested in the fact that

PJ Ellis (08:55)

Ha

James Cary (08:57)

A good team has people who care about different things and it's great they care about different things. And so the team I'm assembling for my current sitcom are basically eight different parts of the Enneagram and the ninth one is never there. And it's great that you've got someone who hates authority and spends their whole time trying to get out of stuff. That's the type eight. That's me. You've also got someone who cares how people feel about things.

and they want to be loved and nurtured and stuff. Well, I've got one for that. You've also got someone who really wants success and to be achieving things. That's great. But when you push that good thing towards logical conclusion, it becomes toxic and it hurts you. And it becomes annoying to the rest of the team. So I think my theology degree, again, looking back, I think it was just my sitcom brain just going, why do people do things?

in a sitcom, you need to have an answer for that because otherwise they're just people sitting in a room talking jokes. And that's a panel game. And I'm not into panel games. I like watching them, but I don't want to write them.

PJ Ellis (09:57)

Yeah. Whoa.

Andy (09:59)

Yes.

PJ Ellis (10:03)

But look how that serves you that degree without you knowing

look at these things that do apply to that degree and all that learning The stand up theologian. ⁓

your standup show, God, the Bible and Everything. You've written a book, The Sacred Art of Joking. I'd literally just read in an article of yours, well I think it was, you certainly mentioned it, How Can You Avoid Fudge in Lent? So there's always this sort of theme. It's quite fascinating, isn't it, when you think of that? You went into this degree and all that happened off the back of it.

James Cary (10:27)

Yeah, yes, Yeah.

Yeah, again, you sort of subconsciously make these choices because you're going after that thing and you don't realize it. And I think one of the upsides of getting a bit older is you can now catch yourself. And then when you get good news or bad news, you can catch your reaction to it. And so there was a job that I was doing, which is on my CV somewhere. I'm not going to say what it is just because it's just, it might just get weird, but I got fired from a show.

And when I got the email halfway through ⁓ working on this show, I thought, thank goodness for that. And that email cost me 25 grand. Okay. So I didn't get paid as much as a result of it. I did get paid, but not as much as I thought. And the long tail on that will mean that will have cost me more than 25 grand, but I got bad news and I felt relief. And I thought, ⁓

And to be fair, my agent had warned me, by the way, there's an outside chance you'll get fired from the start. And I thought I'd made it through, actually. I thought I'd already, you know, withstood the hail of bullets and made it into the opposing trench. No, no, no. I just got stabbed by a bayonet in the ribs. So, so much for that. But, ⁓ but yeah, so I just, now know to notice my reaction. There are various things where I just think, ⁓

got to do this thing. And then I think, why don't I want to do it? What is it about that thing that I don't want to do that makes me sad and angry? For example, doing my taxes makes me both furious and drowsy simultaneously. The personality type I am where I have to fill numbers into boxes, I find deeply offensive to have to do that. I resent being told, I resent being sent forms and having to

Andy (12:16)

Thank

James Cary (12:30)

fill them in. My wife loves to fill in forms. Brilliant. So we actually are between us almost a functional human being. And I think that's why this teamwork thing is really important because we all have different strengths and weaknesses. And that's why, yeah, I just I'm now learning that my limitations are often great strengths,

Andy (12:50)

Yeah, a couple of things for me, The first one is around team. You know, I can imagine what it's like to be in the sports team and roles and clarity and you have a captain and a manager. I can imagine what it's like to be in a management team and in a business and an office. What is it like to be in a writing team? What are the dynamics? What do you do differently, if anything at all?

James Cary (12:58)

Mm.

It is really weird actually, I've literally never thought about that until you just asked me. So this is already interesting. There's a sense in which you're in charge and there's another sense in which you're not in charge at all because you're not paying for it. So the show is your idea. So when I did Bluestone 42, bless you for pronouncing it correctly. I know someone knows the show because they say 42 and not 42. So there's a bit of a bit of code there.

So when, so it's our idea, it's our vision. And so there's no point in the people making the show deviating from it, because we're the ones that had the idea. And so we've got the secret sauce and are trying to make it work. But there's also a sense in which, well, we can't achieve that and we can't do that. So you're to have to change it. And there's no point digging in over, no, no, we insist that you have this large explosion here, there and everywhere. No, you do this or that. So.

you know, you kind of have to fix problems as well. So it is a super weird role, especially when you're in production. Cause when you're on set and you're actually filming on the rare occasion, they let the writer on set and they're actually filming your thing. That's a bit of a, you know, a bit of a black swan, but occasionally that happens. You're the only one with the whole script in your head. So on a day of filming,

You've got to shoot about seven and a half pages and it might be scene three from episode two and then scene four from episode five and then scene three from episode one. And you're filming them because you're in that location, those two actors, you've got that third one coming in, you're going to shoot them out before you move on and do the next stuff. The director's just trying to get through the day and get the pages shot in a way that he can use.

Lines then start to bend on the day and sometimes something seems really funny that fixes a problem that comes up on the day. But you as the writer just go, hang on, sorry. If we do that, that isn't going to match the scene that comes three scenes later. And we've already shot that. And so we're shooting something now that we can't use. So I'm afraid we'll have to go back to the original line that I wrote because I wrote it for a reason.

PJ Ellis (15:19)

.

James Cary (15:27)

And then sometimes you go, no, sorry, that line's terrible. I'll give you a better one. How about this? Or how about this? And then the actor says, ⁓ what about a version of these two? Great. Okay, cool. We'll go again. All fine. But in general, you as the writer, you've certainly got to sit out the way and then just jump up into action if there's a problem. Cause if you start intervening and slowing down production, the moment everyone's standing around, you are burning money really fast. So essentially you only intervene.

Andy (15:52)

Mm.

James Cary (15:57)

if there's something howlingly wrong or there's a problem and you need to fix it. So it is a very weird situation to be in.

Andy (16:06)

Yeah, no interest. And how, when you get into problem solving mode with, I'm guessing there's quite a few egos knocking around when you're kind of filming on sets like that. In terms of the, ⁓ the human behaviors, how, how does that kind of play out? Again, I can see what it's like in a, in a, in a working environment and, and sport teams. it, is it any different? I'm just fascinated by the world.

James Cary (16:28)

Totally, because

not only have you got the character the actor is playing, you've got the actor themselves and they have their own view on their own status within things about how they're listened to, what they have a problem with. There's a really lovely, so a guy I listen to a lot, ⁓ who actually weirdly is going to seminary now in his sixties. He was a show runner on Cheers when it finished called Rob Long. And he did a lovely book called Conversations with My Agent. And he has a podcast called Martini Shot.

PJ Ellis (16:50)

⁓

James Cary (16:56)

which is like 10 minutes on entertainment and sitcoms and all that kind of stuff. He says, when an, sometimes an actor throws their toys out at the pram and there's a line that they've got a problem with. And at that point, it's a really handy thing just to say, okay, so can you just explain to me the problem with the line? And then they blurt out something. And at that point, just say, sorry, could you just say a bit more?

And actually what you might discover is they're sick of not being listened to. And there's an outside chance by the end of them saying more, they just go, I mean, it's probably fine. mean, the line's probably fine. I don't know. I'm just not getting it. I don't understand why my character is doing it. And then if you say, because in the previous scene, do remember you did this and therefore you're still thinking about that. ⁓ right. okay. I hadn't got that. And then you realize that one word of the line is throwing them in a different direction, in which case just scrap the line and give them another one. It's fine.

So in one sense, want to honor... They've spotted a problem subconsciously, you want to honor it. ⁓ So don't just say, look, listen, pretty boy, just do the lines. You know, just say the thing, because I know what's funny. They'll be laughing at home. Just trust me. ⁓ know, actors... Writers have got all kinds of disparaging ways of referring to actors as camera meat, basically, and all those sorts of things. So sometimes it's just a question of listening and working out.

PJ Ellis (18:00)

Thank

Thank you.

James Cary (18:17)

And as always, with all these kinds of things, the problem that you're presented with isn't the real problem. What's the problem behind the problem? And you get this when you're getting notes on the script in the, know, draft one, draft two, draft three, cause you're filming draft six or seven or eight or nine. Somebody reading will give you a note and they say, I didn't like this or this felt weird or this wasn't funny. And sometimes you think, well, initially you just think, shut up. Of course it was funny.

What's wrong with you? Are you an idiot? Of course you're an idiot. You work in television. Once you're over that, that's where it really helps to have a co-writer. So I had a co-writer on that show and you basically get to bitch about the idiots who are giving you notes. And then the next day you come back into work and just go, right, okay, so let's be professional. What are we going to do next? ⁓ But again, it's a question of just going, well, they've highlighted a problem with this script. They don't know why this line bumps. They don't know why this just jumps out at them.

they've actually misdiagnosed the problem, but they have identified a problem. And I think the solution is three lines earlier, because we've given the impression that the scene's going in this direction, it's going in another direction. And we should either make the switch much more funny and obvious, or we've just sent everyone in the wrong direction. So some of it is a bit like that kind of chiropractor sort of stuff where you've got a problem with your shoulder and then...

chiropractor starts fiddling with your toes and all of a sudden your shoulder's better. I've never been to a chiropractor and this is a sitcom version of a chiropractor. do you see what I mean? You're just sort of diagnosing on the fly. I mean it's pretty exhausting but it's great fun.

PJ Ellis (19:44)

you

Yeah. Hello, mate. You're not far off though, Yeah, yeah.

Andy (19:50)

I'm

PJ Ellis (19:59)

It's really interesting because my both my son and my daughter want to be camera meat. But they're also they've also taken up writing. My son is so creative, loves writing. We were speaking of it's bizarre how these things happen in the world. I never thought I'd be talking to you. And he said to me, said, said, I like writing, he said, but it's quite I have to it on my own. It's quite solitary. And actually, it's a team sport, isn't it? If you listen to what you've just said there, however dysfunctional that team is. Are we?

You've worked with words. You clearly have a control of words Are we writing enough? Are kids writing enough nowadays, James, do think?

James Cary (20:37)

Ooh, that's a great question. ⁓ Probably not. I mean, I think we're now realizing that screens are a pretty big problem and therefore we probably need to do something about that. And it feels like there's, that's moving. There is an emphasis on reading and writing and maths and that kind of stuff. I, and in some sense is like texting and Snapchat and all that stuff is very, very text.

PJ Ellis (21:03)

Mm.

James Cary (21:05)

rich, isn't it? And it's got its own kind of patois and shorthands. And now people say, lol. And it's like, sorry. In real life, you know, if you lol, sure you're laughing out loud and I can hear you laugh. Lol isn't lol. So yeah, think there is sort of, oddly, I wasn't very good at creative writing in school. found it quite, because it was

PJ Ellis (21:16)

IRL in real life, you

.

Okay.

James Cary (21:33)

prose fiction and I didn't read much fiction and because it wasn't funny. So the only fiction I wanted to read really was stuff like Terry Pratchett, which was funny. So I think we do make people, we do slightly kill off reading and writing by making people read stuff. And actually I mentioned it briefly in my ⁓ standup show about Far From The Madding Crowd.

Don't make 15 year old boys read Far From The Rallying Crowd. For goodness sake, I'm 50 and I don't want to read Far From The Rallying Crowd. And I live in Wessex, you know, I'm in Hardy country. I don't want to read that book. But I did recently read As An Adult, 1984, having I thought I'd read it and I hadn't and I read it as an adult and I'm so glad I read it for the first time as an adult and experienced it. So I think we're kind of giving

PJ Ellis (22:07)

Yep.

Yeah, yeah. ⁓

James Cary (22:30)

We're them literature like it's vegetables and nobody really wants to vegetables. So they mean some girls do want to eat vegetables, but overall we're not that desperate to eat vegetables unless they are highly spiced and covered with sugar, in which case let's talk. turning...

PJ Ellis (22:48)

⁓ You

only eat fruit, don't you, because your wife buys it.

James Cary (22:51)

Yes, exactly. Yes, indeed,

as I say in my show, I would have committed the sin of Adam and eaten the fruit just for a quiet life. So, yeah, it's hard to know how to do it because also for maybe a third, maybe even two thirds of kids, writing stuff is really, really difficult and mainstream education doesn't work for at least half the kids we've got anyway, which is why we home educated our kids until the ages of 13 and 16.

Andy (22:59)

Yeah

PJ Ellis (23:18)

I can't.

James Cary (23:20)

And oddly, we home educated them. Neither of them particularly want to be writers, but they're both very creative. One's going to go off and do an art foundation course. And, you know, one is now realizing that she should probably go into product design rather than, you know, engineering. ⁓ So, yeah. I don't care. No, ⁓ sorry. I had to go for the joke there.

Andy (23:33)

you

PJ Ellis (23:38)

And are they happy, James?

James Cary (23:47)

Yeah, we've always basically supported them in their decisions to what they're interested in and just giving them opportunities to have a go at stuff. And I think this is the other thing maybe that's a big lesson. And why actually, again, I look back at my school, which was very pastorally sensitive, particularly for the 90s when it was, know, this is Gen X is coming of age, no one cares about you. ⁓ But because it was a very cuddly Christian school, failure was acceptable.

PJ Ellis (24:17)

Mm.

James Cary (24:18)

And ⁓ the problem with writing and then performance is that people may read it and say it wasn't very good. ⁓ And that's actually normal. And so I think it may be our problem is not so much have a go at writing as do we make failure not just possible, but essential because it's inevitable. ⁓

PJ Ellis (24:41)

Yeah.

James Cary (24:46)

Success in professional writing, success is the outlier. And so if you get a show on for heaven's sake, make the most of it, because you're probably not getting another one on anytime soon. And so because most of your time, and when I used to describe, I used to describe my job as being told that what I've written isn't good enough. That's my job and to do it again. ⁓ And so therefore kids need that resilience to be given notes.

PJ Ellis (25:08)

Mm.

James Cary (25:15)

And I was really interested. heard a story the other day of someone using from an Austin thing. ⁓ Is it Emma? Badly done, Emma. Badly done. And this was quoted. And then someone said that this was a very negative way to talk to women. And it was, ⁓ he actually was very sensitive in that. And she had behaved appallingly. And are we really saying that criticism is not acceptable? ⁓

PJ Ellis (25:26)

I'm a bad leader.

James Cary (25:45)

We've got a really serious problem if that's what we think. But that's the problem is, you want to find out your script's no good now? Or when 300 people come into the BBC television studio and the actors act it out? Do you want to discover then that it's not funny? No, I didn't think so. So change it. All right? That bit doesn't work. That's not funny. Change that. That's boring. Get rid of that. And that scene needs a joke at the end. Go and do it. ⁓

It's just being grown up about receiving criticism is probably as much a problem as opportunities to write.

Andy (26:20)

How did you develop that grit to get through it then James was that just through life experience?

James Cary (26:25)

Market forces.

Do you want to do this job? Yeah. Well, suck it up. Get on with it. I think I'm very fortunate in that I don't take things that personally. and therefore, because a lot of writers do make it very personal and there's a lot of writers, because now everyone's on social media and everyone's a writer and everyone wants to be a writer. There's an awful lot of people who are looking for affirmation and

that is not going to serve you well. So if you want to get on as a writer, you just need to develop that thick skin. I think I had an advantage in the fact that, because also maybe I de-personalized it and I think maybe that is the way, because I'm interested in comedy, not myself. And I remember I had an interview, you can probably dig it out somewhere. I used to do a podcast called Sitcom Geeks. There are 222 episodes to catch up on if you want.

I was talking about comedy, and my ⁓ co-host Dave Cohen, who wrote a lot of the Horrible Histories songs. And he worked on I Got News For You and all that kind of stuff. We interviewed Barry Cryer, who was one of the venerable saints of the British comedy world. And he once met Tommy Trinder backstage. So Tommy Trinder was like...

the A-list comedian, the Michael McIntyre of the 1950s. what happened was Barry Cryer went on, did 10 minutes, did some funny stuff, came off backstage and Tommy Trinder said, really good, nice, know, good work. by the way, there's an extra joke there. When you say this, tell you what, say that, that'll take the roof off. You can have that. Because both men were interested in comedy and not themselves. And so...

PJ Ellis (28:18)

Mm.

James Cary (28:20)

If you're passionate about the thing, then it doesn't matter. I only, I'm only interested in whether the joke works or not. The sound of audience laughter confirms I was right about the joke. That's how much of a weird type A enneagram I am. Okay. That's how off the charts I am. ⁓ And so I'm trying to solve the puzzle and therefore I need to be leaning into anyone who's offering me help.

solve the puzzle. And then sometimes you come up with people who just go, you just gave me notes because you were paid to and you wanted to sound intelligent and like you were paying attention. And we've all said stuff in meetings purely to demonstrate the fact that we've done the reading and we're paying attention. So I get it. ⁓ But in general, you just need to have that disposition to learn ⁓ so that your passion is the thing and therefore criticism is helping you. But you know,

that takes a bit of maturity and know kids have got a bit to learn there. But the ones who are really interested in writing they really do want to learn I think can be encouraged quite a lot in that regard.

PJ Ellis (29:28)

Let's get back into that consultancy room then, James. Do you think humor ⁓ can be a leadership skill?

James Cary (29:31)

Yeah.

It can be. I've done a few seminars on comedy whilst preaching on a Sunday morning and in general I don't advise it because it's quite risky. I wrote a book called The Sacred Art of Joking which explains how jokes work and why they go wrong and there are so many ways in which your joke can go wrong. It's amazing that jokes work as often as they do. So I sort of think it's a fairly high risk strategy to use comedy.

PJ Ellis (29:59)

Yeah.

James Cary (30:06)

I think the thing to learn from comedians, and I've worked with quite a few comedians over the years, is they know sort of what their energy is and what their status is and what works for them. And there's a really good advertising rival podcast here, but sorry. There's a podcast called The Comedians Comedian, which is presented by a lovely stand-up comedian called Stuart Goldsmith. And I think I listened to the first 200 episodes and then I think they were on about 500 and I'd...

thought, okay, I think I'm done here. But an awful lot of those early episodes were comedians talking about their experience of realizing who they were on stage and turning that up. And so therefore being themselves only more so, rather than trying to be someone else. So that's really about authenticity. So if you're naturally a serious person, that's great, be serious.

PJ Ellis (30:36)

Wow.

James Cary (31:06)

Don't try to show how that you're not serious by telling a joke. It's going to be awful. ⁓ unless you're making a sophisticated joke about how bad you are at telling jokes, but that's quite, that's a very high risk strategy. I really wouldn't recommend that at all. that's kind of Stuart Lee meta comedy stuff. And I, you know, that's, that leave that to the experts. But, ⁓ I think when you're using comedy in public, it is risky. And therefore I would generally advise.

Andy (31:19)

you

PJ Ellis (31:27)

Yeah.

James Cary (31:35)

to it with extreme care. But the way to bring joy, which is not necessarily the same as making people laugh, is to own who you are. And you don't need to run yourself down. You don't need to be self-deprecating. Because again, that's not very inspiring in leadership. But I think just that sense of awareness about what your voice is and what would work well for you. And so, yeah, occasionally I do end up having to help people, not so much in a commercial way, but I would be...

more than interested to do that is just working out how can this person be themselves only more so what are they hiding and actually your vulnerability and authenticity. Well, that's kind of the good stuff really, cause I'm afraid AI can do most of the heavy lifting in terms of content. So if you can't be you, then I don't think we're getting much out of this. And once we can replace you with a robot, then you're done. figure out who you are and be like that only more so would probably be my

Andy (32:16)

Yeah.

Yeah.

James Cary (32:34)

way of going rather than using comedy per se. ⁓ But that isn't always what people want to hear because they just want to make a room for people laugh because it feels good and it does.

Andy (32:44)

Yeah, just touching on the AI stuff now that you mentioned it, James, a lot of people use increasingly using that to generate content. What's your advice? What do you do? How do you generate ideas?

James Cary (32:57)

For heaven's sake, delete all the dashes, because then everyone knows that it's AI. Change them. Yeah. It says, or just use a comma or something. I do use AI, but not really for writing. I use it for research and thinking and asking it questions so that I'm not rattling around on my own. And interesting, like your boy who's writing, there's a sense in which having a conversation with AI about an idea.

PJ Ellis (33:01)

Or at least change them to the smaller ones, the short ones.

James Cary (33:26)

is one way to go. And in that sense, it's all about intuitive, it's developing skills about what good questions to ask, because AI is incredibly powerful, but you need to use it in the right way. know, a JCB digger can dig you a massive hole really fast. For heaven's sake, Jack, you want a hole there before you start digging it. Otherwise you've got some pretty serious problems. So I think these intellectual power tools need to be handled right and pushed in the right direction.

And so I used AI this morning, I think, did I? To just generate some ways of thinking about a particular problem, just to give me a starting point, so that I'm not starting with a blank sheet of paper. That said, ⁓ I'm above average good with a blank sheet of paper. I'm pretty good at spitting out 15 different ideas quite quickly. But in terms of thinking about characters and ideas and that kind of stuff.

So there are all of these really creative ways you can use the technology to make you better at your job. ⁓

and occasionally a starting point to fill a blank page with some text. But the moment you do that, you're already ⁓ letting it do quite a lot of the heavy lifting and it will feel pretty dead behind the eyes. And unless you're really good at painting eyes, which most people aren't, it's gonna feel pretty dead. So I use it as a spell check as well ⁓ and correct typos. It still doesn't fix all of them, but quite a few of them before my wife then proofread stuff.

So there are lots of good use cases for it, but I think if you ask it to give you a sitcom, it's not going to be pretty or funny ⁓ or original. It's going to be the sum total of the aggregate of all of the ideas that are already out there. And it's probably not going to do what it needs to do.

PJ Ellis (35:20)

James, mean, what a CV man. You've interviewed Ben Alton, right? You've done some brilliant things, you know.

Just the fact that you love mash instantly means we can be best friends forever. But do you still struggle with imposter syndrome?

James Cary (35:28)

Yeah.

⁓ no, actually, I'm going to be honest. I do in other situations. So I've ended up in boardrooms for charities having to read documents about safeguarding. And I'm thinking, you know, talking heads. So you ask yourself, how did I get here? ⁓ so I do have it in other, in other arenas having watched and worked in comedy for 25 years. As far as scripted.

PJ Ellis (35:35)

Okay.

I need...

James Cary (35:58)

Half hour comedy goes. If I haven't figured that out by now, then frankly, what on earth am I doing? So I can't pretend I don't know what I'm talking about. It doesn't count for as much as you'd think in terms of pitching new shows, by the way. So that's interesting that I've done a few murder mysteries since my sitcoms, but I'm working on new stuff at the moment. I'm generating lots of new ideas and pitching and all that kind of stuff. So I don't get the imposter syndrome.

PJ Ellis (36:10)

Mm.

James Cary (36:26)

so much, but I do get the frustration of, I think if you've got an imagination, it is very frustrating that other people can't see what you can see. And so if you're an entrepreneur, if you're a business leader, normally you can see the future. The biggest example being Steve Jobs, who was in many other ways a very antisocial sociopath who was probably to be avoided. I've sort of halfway through his

Andy (36:41)

Yeah.

James Cary (36:56)

biography, which is compelling, but you just think that guy's a nightmare. But he could see things that other people couldn't see and he could describe them. And everyone would run away and lose their minds about how, what do you mean a phone that's an iPod? How does that even work? What even is that? ⁓ And so I think that is always the frustration for me is pitching shows that I can see in my head and the advice therefore I always give, and this could work for entrepreneurs as much as sitcom writers or whatever.

I always say if you're pitching something, pitch it like you've already seen it. So pitch it as if you watched the thing last night. So if you've got a movie to pitch, pitch it like, know, ⁓ there's this amazing movie. There's this guy who does this thing and you're giving them all the highlights so that they'll want to go off and watch the movie. And so you're selling it like you've seen it. I think that's quite a good trick to use. And I use a bit of AI in terms of image generation and that kind of stuff.

Andy (37:31)

Mmm.

James Cary (37:56)

⁓ as well, just to fill in some of the blanks. Because I've noticed that an awful lot of people have a really hard time imagining something that doesn't exist. ⁓ And you can create a bit of that with words, but then there's, if you want to get someone to part with two million quid in order to film your sitcom, you can have to do a bit better than that. ⁓ And I think that's the bridge that you've got to, you know, that's the chasm you have to bridge with words, pictures, and describing it like you've seen it.

Andy (38:25)

Yeah, I love that. That's a great idea. I'm going to steal that for some of our pitches. Last question for me, James, because the podcast is called Wit and Grit. So if wit helps us to understand the world and grit helps us to change it, what do young people need to do more of right now?

James Cary (38:29)

Please do.

It's a great question.

I think your intro about the fact that education does not prepare you for life. It prepares you to pass exams. And I've got a kid who's super smart, who thinks that putting all the information down on paper is wrong in some way. And therefore she doesn't really get very good exam results. And she's got good speed of thought, but she doesn't like to write it down. I would just think, I think passing exams is slightly overrated.

And I think developing interests is really important, but ultimately I do think it comes down to character. You essentially want people who are easy to work with or are willing to learn. And I think we still have that mentality that you need to know more facts in order to get the qualifications to do the jobs. There are actually very few jobs which require you to know facts. Being a doctor or a surgeon, please know how the human body works.

⁓ but most other jobs are management, are liaison, their relationship. They're not technical and AI is going to do a lot of the technical stuff to come. It's about people. And so you do need to raise your eyes from the phone and kids you're addicted to your phones because your parents are addicted to their phones and they've modeled that behavior for your entire childhood. So do yourselves a favor, stick your phones in the console table in the hall.

and have a conversation and look each other in the eye and just get better at looking people in the eye. And you don't want to do it. I don't like picking up the file from joke. I don't want to speak to you on the phone. If I wanted to speak to you on the phone, I'd be a producer. I'm a writer. Leave me alone. But you do have to look people in the eye and, you know, learn a bit and learn how humans operate and whatever kind of character you end up with. That is the biggest determiner of your future. It really isn't.

Andy (40:31)

Yeah. ⁓

James Cary (40:46)

the academic qualifications, because you can have those and still not succeed, and you can have no qualifications and be a zillionaire. There is a surprisingly small link, but I think it's more to do with character than passing exams.

PJ Ellis (40:59)

And I call that a hard end we always end with a few sort of takeaways, James. I hope you don't mind me indulging you with the things that you've just already said almost. There we go. Some of them I'll probably change slightly, but get better at looking people in the eyes. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. What is your God? Your limitations can also be your great strengths. Failure is not just a possibility. It's all around. Be interested in the thing.

James Cary (41:04)

Please do.

and will be used in evidence against me. Yeah.

PJ Ellis (41:25)

and not yourself. Lean into anyone and anything that can help you solve the puzzle. Be yourself and then more so. And your vulnerability and authenticity is the good stuff. And I love this bit. The niche, this is my sort of takeaway. The niche of painting eyes could be very profitable and pitch it like you've already seen it. James Carey, mate, it has been a real privilege. Thank you so much for joining us on the Witton Grid podcast, mate.

James Cary (41:53)

you very much for having me. Great. Cheers fellas.