Matt Theriault [0:01 - 0:28]: Having that home is more important to them than getting in the game, right? It's more important to looking good to the neighbors. It's more important to, you know, you don't want to disappoint your family to reduce your house, or you don't want to move to a different city and you'd be further away from work or whatever the reason is that you're allowing that house that you're living in to stop you from doing what you want to do. That's more important to you. And that's not a good or bad thing. It's not right or wrong is just.

Krisstina Wise [0:28 - 1:58]: What'S so hello and welcome back to the Wealthy Wealthy podcast where we explore the intersection of wealth, health and entrepreneurship. I'm your host, Christina Wise, and today I'm joined by Matt Theriault, a seasoned real estate investor and coach. Matt brings over two decades of experience in real estate investing, having navigated multiple market cycles and economic shifts. His journey from the music industry to becoming a successful real estate investor offers valuable insights for anyone looking to build wealth through property. In this episode, we dive deep into the world of real estate investing, debunking common myths and addressing the fears that often hold people back from getting started. We discuss the power of leveraging debt responsibly, the importance of having the right mindset, and why real estate remains one of the most accessible paths to wealth for the average person. Matt shares his unique five ones framework for success in real estate investing and explains how he helps his clients find strategies that align with their natural strengths and personalities. If you've ever felt intimidated by the idea of real estate investing or wondered how to get started in today's market, this conversation will provide you with practical insights and a fresh perspective on building wealth through property. You'll gain a deeper understanding of how to approach real estate investing, manage your mindset around debt and risk, and build a portfolio that can withstand market fluctuations. Please enjoy my conversation with my friend Matt Theriault. Matt, welcome back to the Wealthy Wealthy podcast. Good to see you my friend.

Matt Theriault [1:58 - 2:02]: Likewise. Thank you Christina. Good to see you. Happy New Year.

Krisstina Wise [2:02 - 3:47]: Yeah, Happy New Year. And you and I were talking offline that you inspired me to write a book on real estate investing. You being a a real estate investor and real estate investor coach, maybe yourself. So I thought it would just be a really great opportunity to share to talk about real estate investing. It's fre mind since I'm writing this book and you're really the expert at this and you know, for me, real estate investing has been a part time thing. I've always built my business and had like my day job for all these years. But I just buy a property every two or three years and over time it's turned into a really nice portfolio of assets and built a really nice net worth. But I can't say I ever did it with real, any real upfront strategy or knowledge. Even what I was getting myself into at the beginning, I kind of learned it over trial and error and over time, which, you know, if I'd have done it your way, I could have done it much quicker and probably without losing a lot of money I've lost and all sorts of things from just being naive. So I thought what we could do is just really tap into your knowledge and to, for anybody listening that's interested in kind of getting started in real estate that we can help them out a little bit. And for everybody listening, there are many people out there that claim to be kind of real estate investor coaches and some of them might be good. But Matt, you've been around for how long? Matt is my go to, is a good friend, somebody I completely trust and that has been through more than one real estate cycle like myself, meaning, you know, one or two recessions in the whole process.

Matt Theriault [3:47 - 3:49]: And Covid, not many of us out.

Krisstina Wise [3:49 - 4:27]: There, there are many of us that have sustained and survived through more than one, you know, market crash, if you will. So first of all, just tell a little story because what you've done is as opposed to me, that this has been more of a side hustle. You woke up one day through your own life journey and said, I think I want to do this real estate thing full time. So share a little bit of story of what you did before and what was that catalyst or that bridge where you kind of had that confidence to say, hey, versus working for a job, I can actually get into real estate investing and that become my business.

Matt Theriault [4:28 - 5:41]: Sure, I'd be happy to. But one thing you had said right at the beginning is like you've never, you just kind of bought every one every couple years and you just kind of held on with no real strategy. And it's built this, you know, portfolio and it's built and made a significant contribution to your wealth. And I think that alone is just a testament to what real estate is for just the average person. You know, one of the things that I've coined on my show over the years is that real estate is the final frontier where the average person has a legitimate shot at creating real wealth. It's created more wealth for more people than anything else. So that's a clue, that's a hint. Like maybe you don't need a strategy. Maybe you just need to buy it and hold onto it and you'll be just fine. Even if you don't like real estate, you know, just incorporate it into your financial plan in some shape, form or fashion. But yeah, maybe you don't need a strategy. I chose to take it on as a full time endeavor. But in hindsight, you know, anyone that's ever invested and you might even agree, I'm sure you will, but you can disagree if you want and prove me wrong. But almost everyone that's been doing this for 20 years or more would say, God, I wish I would have bought more and sold less. Right, right.

Krisstina Wise [5:42 - 5:47]: Yeah. Myself included. Absolutely. Like if we know then what we know now, it's like, holy cow.

Matt Theriault [5:47 - 5:47]: Right?

Krisstina Wise [5:47 - 5:50]: I would have. Yeah, exactly what you just said.

Matt Theriault [5:50 - 6:55]: And there's a lot of weird public sentiment right now about the market and like, it's risky and it's about to crash. It can't go up forever. And the interest rates and the job market and the economy and the president and the recession's on its way and the stock market's going to collapse. There's all this weird stuff going on in people's heads right now. But if you look back in history, there wasn't a single day in history where it was a bad day to buy real estate. Wasn't a single day. Now you can't say that for selling the real estate. Right? There are some bad days to sell the real estate, but there wasn't a bad day to buy it. And we were talking offline just about, you know, when everything kind of shifted for you with in 2008 and the big crash happened. If you would have bought a house or 10 houses the day before that happened and you didn't sell, you're still almost 3x now, right. If you look at history, most people think that was the worst day in history to buy real estate. No, it was actually a really good day to buy real estate. If you did right, you just shouldn't have sold it yet. But that was a really great day to buy real estate. In hindsight, you look really smart right now.

Krisstina Wise [6:55 - 7:32]: Yeah, I mean, that's a good point. Let's even. I think this is a great place to start. Matt is. It's exactly. You said. This is the objections. The objection that I hear most often is, but real estate prices are so high they can't continue to go up and to Your point? They were the highest they'd ever been the day before the crash happened. And all these years later, here we are. Exactly. So what do you say to that? What do you. I mean, other than what you just explained, which I think is, you know, makes it pretty obvious. But what do you say today when people say that? But real estate prices are so high and interest rates are so high.

Matt Theriault [7:33 - 11:44]: Yeah, it's. They've been higher. Right. So in the, was it 70s and the 80s, I mean, we had hit certain points where we'd hit 15, 16, 17% interest rates. So it's not the rates, the prices we've had affordability being worse than what it is right now. So all things taken into consideration, the rates aren't high and the prices aren't high, as remarkable as that is to believe, because everybody back then was thinking the exact same thing. You know, my grandmother and I'll go back there was. Got the old real estate story, right? But I'm from Southern California and, you know, they lived in. I believe they lived in Long beach and their house was $5,000 to move in. And I might have the cities backwards. And they wanted to move to Lakewood, but they couldn't afford the Lakewood house because it was $5,500. Like, put that into perspective, right? You can't move to South Central Los Angeles for less than 700 grand for a 1950s home. You know, no one ever thought that was. Would even be possible because just 10 years ago those houses were 300,000. So it's just. What do you say to people? I don't say a lot. I bang them in the head a lot and say. And try to rattle them and shake them. Like, look at history. Like, what you're afraid of is it doesn't exist. And. But if you look at real estate like day trading, then, yeah, okay, there could be potentially some risks there. And timing is an issue, but that issue exists in every investment. So what is the alternative to not invest? Because the stock market goes up and down probably with greater volatility than real estate does. So you have all the same risks. So what are you going to do? Just put your head in the sand and put your money under your mattress? Well, gosh, after the last, you know, several years here of inflation, that was a terrible move. That was probably the worst thing you could have done. So what do you do? Just nothing. Right. So, you know, I talk about this all the time and there's so many different angles to approach it, but real estate is not risky. Not risky at all. It's the safest investment out there where the risk comes in. From my experience over 20 years, it's the people you work with. The real estate is safe. The people are risky. It's contractors that people get screwed by all the time. And there's some good ones out there, but there's the contractors, the secondary property managers. Because if you're buying property for income, you know, it's not the property that's going to produce the income, it's the management of the property that produces the income. And so there's that. And even know people, oh, bad tenants in the phone call at night for the broken toilet. In 20 years, I've never had that call before. And that. But that's what everyone goes to. And I've owned up to 350 units. So what people are afraid of, in my opinion, doesn't exist. It's the big, giant boogeyman out there. It's the headlines and it's, gosh, I mean, we live in now with social media. We just live in a society of clickbait. And, you know, my video editor, for example, this morning he sent me over, he's in India. So he was going to bed while I was waking up, and he sent me, hey, have you seen this channel? They're doing really, really well. So it was a real estate channel. And I said, yeah, I have seen the channel. But this guy for. He's been on YouTube, I think, for six years, and he releases three or four videos a week, and every single video says the housing market is going to crash tomorrow. That's the essential vibe. And the little thumbnail, it's got flames and fire and he's got a panicked look on his face. And he gets 200 to 300,000 views per video. So that's what people are attracted to. That's what they click on. And that's. They watch enough of that, they start to believe it. But, gosh, here we are six years later, and if you would have listened to his advice, you'd missed some. One of the biggest opportunities in history when it comes to real estate. And so public sentiment is a big thing.

Krisstina Wise [11:44 - 12:42]: Yeah, I agree. And obviously that's kind of the headlines all the time. You know, something that I say to that is similar to what you're saying. And, you know, just speaking from my own experience, like, what do I know? I'm not smart enough to predict what markets are going to be or what the future is going to look like or, you know, I'm just like you said that Average person that has used real estate as a means to grow my wealth and net worth. But when I look back over my 20 years, and I'm guessing when you look back over your 20 years, it really didn't matter ever what the market was like. I didn't ever care about the market. A deal was a deal and there's always a deal in any market. And the current state of any economy just never mattered like it. Because you run some numbers and they work or don't work and you know, I've made some good bets, but it's less about the market and more about the deal itself inside of any market. Would you agree?

Matt Theriault [12:42 - 14:17]: Yeah, totally. I mean, and that's what we do full time is we're always looking for the deal. Right, but kind of what I was just circling around at the very, very beginning, you could have paid full retail at any point in history and you ended up fine. Right. But you're right, but now you can look for the deal if you're going to be active, more active in the investing. And one thing that exists in every market, good or bad, are motivated sellers. Life doesn't stop happening to people and it even happens to property owners. And a lot of times they turn to their property for the financial relief that will clear up whatever thing else that is going on in their life, whether it's a divorce or a job loss or that some family member is dealing with drugs or you know, someone died and you know, whatever it may be that happens every single day and it happens to people every day. And you know, unfortunately we're all going to get kicked in the teeth every once in a while and we're gonna have to re to do something that we wouldn't normally do under normal times. And so if you're aware of that, then there's just always a lower price to buy at in relationship to the market and a higher price to sell at in relationship to the market and vice versa. And so yeah, there's always a deal. Either the numbers work or they don't. And as investors, we analyze the properties and for two things like is there equity that we can get right away when we buy it or will it produce a stream of cash? Right, will it? Cash flow. So if it doesn't have it, you can't buy it with equity and it doesn't produce cash flow, then it's not a deal. So that's it. And. But you can find that in any market. You're right. Yeah.

Krisstina Wise [14:17 - 17:55]: And when I look at that, when you. Again, it's the I think the point we're trying to make here is it's like a mindset issue. Like if your mind believes that it's a terrible market, the prices are so high that I can't afford it, that I'm not going to buy until interest rates go back down to record lows that may or may not ever happen again. That is that mindset that gets in the way of even learning that oh, there are deals in every market really that again this market concern or interest rate concern, they're factors, but they're not the deciding factor. They're just kind of running in the background somewhere and making an overall decision. And to what you said with motivated sellers, which this is kind of the real point here and those work with you, you teach them what a motivated seller is and how to structure deals to be able to take advantage of these situations and not in a win lose type of capacity. Like I win with a great buy, the seller loses because they're desperate, but a win win. And that's where real estate is, like you said, such this great play for that. And again, a personal example where I've been a buyer over my career and found good deals based on situations where my purchase actually saved them from going bankrupt. My purchase actually helped them in a divorce. So they got out of a precarious situation where they're about ready to lose the house because they couldn't afford the payments. I got a good deal and they walked without a bankruptcy. So it's a win win. But even on the flip side, when I got sick, I was so grateful I had real estate because where my business business prior to getting sick provided me with a really nice annual income, far more at that time than my real estate, my smaller portfolio of real estate provided me. I thought things were great because my business was a cash cow, but I got sick and I couldn't be in my business anymore. And my business within a year turned from a cash cow that paid me to one where I had a fund while trying to save my life and fix my health and do all the things. And ultimately that business just couldn't sustain when I wasn't running it day to day in my long hours. My small real estate portfolio on the other hand provided some relief of income on this very part time basis that helped me pay the bills that my business couldn't sustain anymore. So that was point one, part two. This little real estate thing I had on the side, this was kind of, you know, over a decade ago, but my real estate actually saved my Life. And that's not being melodramatic, that is able to sell two pieces of real estate that gave me the cash to be able to pay for my health care and the things that I needed. And the buyers of those two assets, man, I really wish I had those two assets today. I make no mistake. But the fact that I had those available and could sell during a really desperate time was money there saved in real estate that I didn't have anywhere else and I wouldn't have had if I didn't have it stored over in a couple of real estate properties. So someone's probably really happy they have those properties today if they held onto them. But I was really happy that I had those properties at the time to be able to provide cash that I didn't otherwise have. So I think it's just important to look at the, you know, that real estate is just, can be so much bigger really than just passive income that so many people think that, you know, that's what real estate is.

Matt Theriault [17:56 - 18:34]: You know, it's got for profit centers. It's got the appreciation, which we all know what that is. It's got the cash flow that you mentioned, but the depreciation, the tax benefits. I mean, most people don't realize if you just look at the median income in the United States, three to five investment properties. Income properties will completely wipe away your tax liability. Right. It'll virtually eliminate it altogether, legally, honestly, ethically, morally, with Uncle Sam's blessing. It's right there in the tax code. So there is a lot more to real estate than just the cash flow. And you know, thank God you had it and thank God you're here.

Krisstina Wise [18:36 - 19:11]: So mindset is probably the biggest thing that gets in people's way as far as investing in real estate. And again, around the economy, price is high also. I'd say that outside of that, the number one thing that I hear objection wise is but it's so expensive. Like I don't have 20% or 30% to put down on a house, especially when a median home prices these days is close to 500,000. So that was great for you, Christina, when prices were a fraction of that. But if I'm just getting started today, it's impossible. So what do you say to that?

Matt Theriault [19:11 - 20:48]: Well, that's kind of always been the answer. But there's, you know, everyone can get an FHA loan. It's only three and a half percent. If you really want to be a homeowner, you can be. I mean, it's probably going to take no more than ten grand in any city in the United States if you take advantage of the different programs that are available to you. And so you know, you, maybe you won't get your dream home, but you'll get your foot in the door. And then when you see historically what real estate has done, it's worth it. You know, you move in and you stay there for a couple years and then you go buy a nicer home and you keep the first one as your rental and you're on your way. And if you did that every two or three years, instead of a 40 year plan, slaving away at a 9 to 5, maxing out your 401k, you're looking, you can cut that plan in half, right? Just that alone. It'll be a 20 year plan, just that alone, if you didn't do anything special. So those are just excuses. In fact, I just was writing a script and doing a script on research and revising a video that I've created in the past on the USDA loan. It's a 0% down loan, it's a government backed loan. The interest rate is like a point lower than the average rates. You can get approved for as little as a 560 credit score. Like that is out there. And it's out there every single year. And most people think, confuse it, they think it's just for farmland, but it's not. It's. And they just brought in in 2024, they broadened the map of where those are applicable and what's approved for that. So just a little bit of research, but saying, hey, it's just too expensive, I'm not going to try. That means you don't really want to own a house.

Krisstina Wise [20:49 - 21:16]: And what about people that own a home? And you know, they might even be a little cash poor because they bought a big home and living the life that their primary residence represents. And they're saying like, hey, I want to get into real estate investing, but again, I just don't have this extra cash to be able to get in and play the game. Especially with prices so high and interest rates so high. Yada, yada, yada. What next?

Matt Theriault [21:17 - 26:54]: Well, there's two ways to buy real estate. You can use actual currency or you can use what we call around here your intellectual currency. And our motto is it's never a money problem, it's just an idea problem. And if you really want to do it, then you just need a new set of ideas. Because you know, over here we're buying properties with nothing down. We're dealing without using banks, without needing a credit score. It takes more work for sure, but if you want to do it, then you can. You know, there's different things that what it really comes down, we're talking about mindset and still mindset. You've just got to define or just commit to what's really important to you. And a perfect example is like people say they want financial freedom, right? But they also want to be debt free. And you can have both. But if you pursue both and do the activities that will produce both, your journey is going to be two to three times, maybe four times longer. Because the activities that pay down debt don't necessarily produce financial freedom. And the activities that produce financial freedom might require you to take on more debt. People want to be financially independent, but they want a free and clear home, right? And so what you want and the activities you take to pursue it are typically in conflict for most people. Now you can have it all, but you kind of have to pick one thing at a time and go after that. And the fastest path to getting all of it is pursuing the financial freedom first. And so when people say, I want to do this, but I want to do this, but I want to do this, but it's like, well, that but is getting in the way. It's like what really is most important to you? For example, you know, you kind of started that scenario off with someone that's bought their dream home and it might be pressed to make those payments a little bit. And so that's preventing them from getting in the game. Well, what you are actually saying there is having that home is more important to them than getting in the game, right? It's more important to looking good to the neighbors. It's more important to, you know, you don't want to disappoint your family to reduce your house or you don't want to move to a different city and you'd be further away from work or whatever the reason is that you're allowing that house that you're living in to stop you from doing what you want to do that's more important to you. And it's not a good or bad thing. It's not right or wrong. It's just what's so, you know, and this really came clear to me, became clear to me. When I first started in real estate, there was something completely unreal estate related. I was sharing an office with a guy and I came in and, you know, and my weight has gone up and down my entire life. I have lost 40 pounds, I think three different times, four different times in my life, I've entered fitness contests and then I've been a fat slob. So that's always been a thing. And I remember that back in the 25 years ago, maybe I walked in, I was just so frustrated because the scale wasn't cooperating. And I was all frustrated when I walked in the office and I said, damn it, I just can't lose weight. And, you know, the guy said to me, he looks, he says, you just don't want it bad enough. And that was just kicked me in the gut. I was like, what do you mean? I take all the vitamins and I do that and I go to the gym and I'm on my plan. And he goes, yeah, but didn't you go out this weekend and you were up and you got hungover and then you had Denny's early in the morning? And you know, I was like. And he was absolutely right. Once I really came to grips with it, something that I focus on on a daily basis of trying to stay in shape but then blow it on a weekend, what that's really is saying is that weekend is more important to me than actually staying in shape, even though my sole focus is on staying in shape. Like, I just thought about the weekend on the night it happened. So you look at that same way with finances. Like, I want to be financially free, but you're nervous and scared or won't learn how to take on debt. And the debt is what actually is going to produce wealth. I mean, unless you got money to work with right now, then you're never going to have it. You're just going to have to be specially gifted with some sort of talent. You're going to have to have an amazing business. And we know the success rate of businesses. It's like you're going to have to take it on at some time. But that's in such conflict with people's values. And I know there's probably people listen right now that are saying like, this guy's full of crap. He didn't know what he's talking about. How inconsiderate, how irresponsible. How dare he recommend this to people. You just gotta follow the people that are winning and look what they're doing. You know, there's no one out there. If you look at the Fortune 500 companies right now, the richest, most successful companies in the United States, not one of them at this moment is running without debt. They've got all the cash they could pay cash for everything. Why are they taking on debt because they know it's a tool, it's a source of leverage. And so you can look to other areas of your life and other aspects of our society for examples for those that are winning. Or you can go over and you listen to a Dave Ramsey podcast and he's like, wait to save cash for your first home. What does that plan look like? With the median price of 400, you have to save $400,000 to pay cash because he doesn't want you to take on debt. It was like, well, by the time you saved up $400,000, that house is going to be worth $800,000. So what kind of advice was that? So I forget what the question was and I got on my soapbox, but I just see those conflicts all the time. People say they want to do this, but actually, no, they do want something else more, and that's why they don't have what they want.

Krisstina Wise [26:55 - 28:07]: Yeah, Lwell said, I wrote down what you said here, that the way you phrased it, I think is just really important and synthesizes an important takeaway. But you say people say they want financial freedom but be debt free. Or they might say that they want to be financially free but not willing to take on debt, but that might require taking on debt. And it reminds me, just even last night, in fact, you know, with my money management course that I do, I take people 12 weeks and really teach them how to look at their money, get their finances in order, sit and find all the leaks and overspending and all the stuff in their household so that they can find where all those leaks are and be able to have extra cash after figuring out where all their money's going so they can and invest in things like real estate, for example. And part of that 12 weeks is looking at all of their debt. And we create a debt elimination plan for those that have personal debt as part of that process. And so that's a big part of the 12 weeks, because most families, regardless of how much money they make, they have a lot of credit card and other kind of high interest or personal debt.

Matt Theriault [28:08 - 28:09]: That's not the debt I'm talking about, though.

Krisstina Wise [28:09 - 30:29]: Just exactly. So to make your point that. So I take them through this and we're in week 11 out of 12 weeks. And so last night, my. What I was teaching them is like, okay, now after all this time where I've been beating you, you know, like beating the dead horse of get out of debt, get out of debt, get out of debt. Now I'm going to tell you now that we've got that mindset and you've got to plan to pay off all this high interest personal debt and get all your finances structured so that we're going to be, you know, net positive versus net neutral and net negative at the end of the day, at the end of the month. Now I'm going to tell you, I want you to get back into debt. So as we go into this final week, we're going to talk about financial freedom and real sovereignty. You need to learn everything I've taught you. But there's a difference between good debt and bad debt and where you're going to leave this course, terrified of debt, since you've done such a great job paying it off and having a plan to pay it off, that same mindset of debt, if you keep it and you don't understand that good leverage to produce returns, that is a part of financial freedom. So when we want to get on the financial freedom track, we have to learn about debt. And do you even know I have zero, I have zero personal debt, yet as an investor and even business owner, I carry hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt and don't think twice about it. So to that point, what I was trying to say, and I think what you're saying here as well, is that there's a difference between those that have real wealth and net worth and everybody else. And those that do, there's the corporations. Like you said, they all have debt on their books. But from a personal standpoint, when you have real net worth, you only build it through taking on debt and using it as leverage as a tool to be able to fund the investments that makes real estate so unique that you can actually leverage. Use leverage and debt to be able to maximize returns as opposed to those same benefits aren't available in traditional investment. So talk a little bit about how to use, like how you teach to use debt as far as building this portfolio and how it's unique to real estate. Yeah.

Matt Theriault [30:29 - 34:40]: As you're explaining that, you know, every time I have this conversation, I have to stop. Wait, there's good debt and bad debt. And I'm not talking about the bad debt. And it's unfortunate that there's one word that describes both debt. Right. So that can be confusing. Good debt, in my opinion, is use debt on whatever will pay you more than what the debt costs you. Right. So credit card debt can still be good debt. A personal credit card debt could be good debt. You know, if you got one of these crazy credit cards for at 29% which are just, you know, it's terrible if you're going on shopping sprees and vacations with it. But if you use 29% credit card debt to buy something that paid you 35%, then that could be categorized as good debt, right? One example would be maybe you got your credit score is terrible and you have to do it. You're going to buy a car, they're going to charge you 20% and that might be considered a bad use. And you shouldn't take on debt and you shouldn't buy that car. But if you take that car and all of a sudden it's your vehicle for your Uber business, or it's your vehicle for your, what do they call it, the Turo app, like Airbnb for cars. And so if you have a thousand dollar a month payment on this car, but your Turo business pays you $2,000 a month, could be good debt. And it's even, could be even on a personal credit card or really high interest rate. So that's the general idea of what the difference between good debt and bad debt. Just make sure it pays you more than it costs you. And so I really. But I do think there's like three things that you should go into debt for. And the first thing is invest in yourself in regard to skill enhancement, right? Invest in yourself. It's okay to go in debt. If you're going to increase your skill, that's going to increase your earning potential. That's a good use of debt. You know, student loans for a liberal arts degree is probably not a good thing to go into hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt in a college because you know what job is out there for a liberal arts degree? Is it going to pay you more than what your monthly payment is going to be to pay off that student debt? No, that's bad debt. But if you go spend that hundreds of thousands of dollars to be a doctor and you have it paid off in five to 10 years, okay, that was a good use of investing in yourself. And then, you know, there's so much outside education, whether you're working with coaches or mentors or even masterminds have been amazing just for the connections because those pay you and stuff. So investing yourself is the first thing. The second thing is to invest in your own business. Invest that money that's going to make you more money. And I would say that even before you go into the stock market, because you have control over you, you have control over your business. You don't have control over what the stock market's going to do. I mean, you know, China can come out and say, hey, we're going to stop using the dollar. And then the dollar plummets and the Wall street plummets, and the next day, oh, sorry, we're just kidding. And then the stock market goes right back up just on the whimsical shift of something that somebody says globally can cause that to go down. And. But you have control over your own business. So there's that. And the third thing would be real estate. Those are the three things that you absolutely should invest in or be able to use debt to invest in. And now there's more sophisticated stuff above that. But the average person doesn't need to get any more sophisticated than that. They don't need any other options other than those three. Making an investment in yourself. Like, if you're going to be more sophisticated and do some other stuff or even defer real estate, that might be very sophisticated for some people who've never done it. You know, invest in yourself to increase your skill in managing the asset that you're going to go in debt for. Right. Kiyosaki has a lot of great quotes, and he's got a little over, over the edge these last few years. But he would always say this one, these nice, simple, short, pithy quotes, and he'd say, you know, there's no bad investments, there's just uneducated investors. And I think that's so important that, you know, you have to invest in yourself and know what you're doing before you actually make the investment. So if you're going to use debt for an investment, understand the investment. And you only get that through education.

Krisstina Wise [34:41 - 34:55]: How about that? So how do you think about debt in real estate investing? How are you approaching it? Like, how are you. Is it just an automatic that it's like, of course I'm going to use debt to buy real estate.

Matt Theriault [34:55 - 36:58]: Oh, yeah. I mean, I just here in Vegas got a house for like $550,000. I mean, I didn't have the $550,000 available for that particular asset at that time. It wouldn't have been a good use of my cash to put it all into one thing. But so I had to use debt. So it's just like it's not even a thought, right. Like, I bought it from the seller, just making payments to them over time. So even though I didn't go to a bank, I didn't go to a credit card, I didn't go to a loan shark, I didn't, you know, Ask my Uncle Joe for a loan or anything like that. But I just make payments to the seller over time. So it's a form of debt. And I have the house and it'll rent, it'll cash flow based on the terms that we originated. And so, yeah, it's not even a thought, I guess now that you asked that question the way that you asked it, like, I don't think about that. What I think about more of the operations of the asset. Like, okay, how are we going to manage this? How are we going to generate income from this? Who's going to be responsible? What teams do we need in place to minimize our effort? So my focus is more and bigger concern is on the operation than it is on the debt. The debt is just the tool to get acquisition. It's this idea where you can take a small part of your own resources to get full control over somebody else's resources. Right. You put 20% down and borrow the balance from a bank. Yeah. You don't own the house. And that's a common rebuttal I hear all the time. Yeah, but you don't own it. You don't own it. I don't own it, but I have a hundred percent of the rights of all the benefits. I have the rights to 100% of the benefits. I get the appreciation that that property produces. I get the depreciation, I get the amortization, I get the cash flow, I get the use value of it. I get the hedge against inflation. A hundred percent of that is mine, even though I don't own the asset. So which one would you rather have? No asset and no rights or you have your, the bank as a partner, but you get 100 of the benefit of it?

Krisstina Wise [36:59 - 37:26]: And it's really that understanding that is what real estate investors know and take full advantage of. And they use that to accelerate really how fast they can build net worth as opposed to buying other types of assets with this, putting in the same amount of cash without using any leverage.

Matt Theriault [37:28 - 38:43]: And I believe this wholeheartedly, and it's our big driver here in our office, is that I believe in 10 years we are going to be a nation of renters with the amount of demand that's in place based on the age of the millennials, right now there's 14 million of them that are going to be forming households over the next four years, I think is the number. And we're not building homes fast enough. We're going to go at if we're strapped for inventory right now based on the household formation and these are people that are already here. They're already walking the earth. This isn't like some guess or projection. They're here. And if they're going to live under, in a house with a roof over their head, this has to happen. We're running at a 400,000 unit per year deficit. And if you just look at the gloss, supply and demand prices can only go up or go one way and that's up. And as they say that a rising tide lifts all boats. You need to get as many boats in the water as possible right now because that tide is going to rise with or without you. And in 10 years we're having this conversation. What do you say to people if they say the rates are too high? What if you say to the people if they think that the prices are too high, wait 10 years, it'll be absolutely impossible.

Krisstina Wise [38:44 - 39:54]: Yeah, that makes me think too. Is that added on to that? Even more important is just like we're talking about, you and I, are normal people investing in real estate. You're far more sophisticated in this than I am. But you know, normal people who have built a significant amount of wealth without being hedge fund managers or rocket scientists or any of the like and celebrities. And it's just such a great, I mean, it's just one of the most powerful ways, like we said earlier, for the normal person to build wealth. So I say get in the game. And like you said, you can prove that this deficit is true because companies like Blackstone are coming in and building and just buying massive amounts of single family residence as inventory. And they'll pay more if they're successful at this. They're squeezing out opportunities for the normal person like you and me and everybody listening to, do this. Which means we need to get in the game to keep these big institutions from owning this entire country. And this country was really built on the back of real estate ownership.

Matt Theriault [39:54 - 40:58]: Yeah. Here's the trend. There's a huge surge in mobile home park acquisition. The reason being is that's the only affordable homes left. As the major corporations come in and they gobble up all the single family homes and they're doing it, they're still doing it. And they get, they're really quiet about it right now, but they're still doing it. And the home builders, more and more home builders aren't building communities to sell anymore. It's build to rent. And that's the trend of the whole thing. But why would mobile home parks, something we thought was kind of like on its way out and that's you know, that's old news. And you know, we're evolving as a society. We're not going to live in mobile homes anymore. And. But they're getting gobbled up like crazy because that's going to be one of the last forms of affordable housing. And then soon that won't be affordable for the basic reason that we're human beings and we need shelter, so we're going to have to pay it. So you get to decide do you want to be the one that's paying or do you want to be the one that's accepting the payments? Yeah.

Krisstina Wise [40:58 - 41:05]: Well said. Well, I think we've covered really the why real estate investing and.

Matt Theriault [41:05 - 41:11]: Okay, now I'll tell you my story. No, I just saying that's how we started.

Krisstina Wise [41:11 - 41:27]: That's how we started, right? Yeah. So again, you're an example of what I've even put in my book is that there's kind of these two paths to being a real estate investor. And so let me know if there's. If you have anything to add to this, I'm interested.

Matt Theriault [41:27 - 41:27]: Go.

Krisstina Wise [41:27 - 44:49]: But the one path is what I call slow and steady. It's you do it on the side. You buy a property every two to three plus years. And how I built mine at the beginning, like the first decade of this was exactly what you said is that I bought my first home, but as opposed to buying my first property as. No, that's not true. My first property, I didn't know anything about what we're talking about. And I maxed out my mortgage payment based on what the banks would lend me. I bought the great big house that I could show off to everyone. I was literally broke at the end of every single month, even though I made a really high income. But I was totally the example of keep up with the Joneses. Then life happened and I had to start over and I learned some really hard lessons. But once I picked up books like Rich Dad, Poor dad and some other books that you've read and I've read and other real estate investors have read, most of us all started off there that it changed my mindset of like, oh no, I want real estate to get rich, not to show off how big of a house I can buy. And then I went into it with that change in mindset. Like that second property I bought was even though I was going to live in it as my primary residence, I bought it with an investor mindset like, okay, if I live here two or three years, I can live here. I can set it up this way. But this is going to be like my springboard property that if everything goes according to plan in three years, I can buy, I can go up, you know, I can buy my next primary residence by holding the first one. And that became my plan for like my first five houses as I just moved. I didn't ever buy a real estate investment solely as an investment. I just bought that next one with a mindset of investor that I would live there three to five years and then I'd hold that one, I'd save the money so I could buy the next one after that. And my kids got used to moving every few years for a good portion of their growing up because of this. But it was just thinking long term that I was just going to keep moving and moving and moving and finding that next deal for me to be able to move me and my kids into. And that really became how this whole thing started without being a full time investor, like I've never, like we talked about. So that's kind of like I said, this path one is just this kind of slow, steady, like could it put on this, this investor mindset right from the beginning, even though you're buying kind of your personal primary residence, but it's different that I'm going to buy in my personal residence as just the normal way to thinking as opposed to I'm buying my personal residence in with the investor hat on. So that's one path and you know, built my businesses, did all the things and kept my day job. The second path is like what you've done, which is where you, I think you lost your big corporate job when the economy change and then it's like, hey, why would I work for the man when that's not any more secure? I just got fired, or not fired, but just lost my job, got laid off, and then what if I did this full time? So there's kind of these two paths and you can select both of them and both of them can be lucrative at the end of, you know, at the end of the day. But talk about how you went into it as a full time investor as, hey, I'm quitting my day job and I'm going to pursue this real estate thing first full time.

Matt Theriault [44:50 - 46:48]: Got it? Yeah, both paths will work. I was actually in the music business for 15 years and so I did really well. I had a small little record label and had major label distribution and did well. Then this thing called the digital download came along, right. And now that doesn't even exist. Now it's evolved to streaming, but that came along and people stopped buying music, they stopped paying for it. So that put me out of business and actually didn't lose my corporate jobs, I lost that business. And I wasn't technically qualified in the job space to do anything else. Like, I didn't have any credentials, I didn't have any documents because this is what I started doing right out of high school. And I was bagging groceries for six months and that was kind of like, wow, okay, this will be a place for me to sit for a second. But six months went by so fast. I was like, wow, no one's coming along to save me. No one's coming along to rescue me. I guess I better do something else. I knew I had to learn how to do something else because, you know, like I said, the marketplace told me that I wasn't qualified to be compensated for anything significant. So I was like, okay, I have to go learn. And so sales was kind of a natural thing that I was thinking about. But I was like, if I'm going to learn how to be a good salesperson, let's go learn something that where the commission is a lot. So I was like, okay, what? So Lear jets, private jets, that would pay a big commission. So that was a consideration. But I knew nothing about aviation or planes or how to start that. Just becoming a real estate agent first, that was just some seemed more accessible like that paid a big commission. And so that's kind of how I went there. And then I had a couple clients that were investors and I just started to be able to see the difference between my commissions and their profits. And I was like, oh, I think I want to be on the other side of the desk, right. I think I'm not where I really wanted to be. And that's kind of how I made that transition. Because I was already a full time real estate agent becoming a full time real estate investor. Although they're not the same, it wasn't that hard of a transition.

Krisstina Wise [46:49 - 46:52]: What do you do on the daily as a real estate investor?

Matt Theriault [46:52 - 47:31]: Oh, we generate leads, we make phone calls and we present offers. That's the business. There you go. And if you think about that, if you break it down to that sort of simplicity, that's what every business does. Just our product or our service is different. The one dynamic that would be different though, is that we're not selling anything. We're buying something from somebody. Right. So there's a little bit of a different dynamic there. But still, you generate a lead and you make a proposal and you try to close the deal. And that's what every business does. Just the product of the service is real estate.

Krisstina Wise [47:32 - 48:42]: So you're at a stage now that, you know, we're aging ourselves, but we've been around. We've been doing this for a couple decades now after, you know, learning some life lessons before that pivoted us to become investors, investors in the first place. And, you know, now kind of sitting in this stage of life. What's great about this is that we get to teach what we've done and learned both, you know, the successes and what we've learned through our failures. And like you said, I love the quote that from Robert Kiyosaki that there are no bad investments. There are only uneducated investors. And I heard of so many people who tried to get into real estate investing and only get, you know, really bitten. And so that scared them. And, you know, they quit because they were, like you said, uneducated. So now you're at a stage where even though you've built your personal portfolio and your own personal financial freedom, as a result of that, you now coach and teach others how to succeed at what you've succeeded at in this game of real estate investing. So we'll be putting a link to the show notes and how to reach you. But talk about that, like, what are you coaching? What are you doing? How are you helping others that are aspiring real estate investors?

Matt Theriault [48:43 - 51:02]: Yeah, the primary person, I guess that kind of the. I don't know how we. The person that comes to us is typically at some sort of crossroads in life, whether it's personally or professionally or financially, and they want to either replace their income and kind of go into something new and become their own boss, or they're looking for a side hustle to supplement their income, or they're looking, you know, they recognize that they're just a little bit behind on their retirement and they like to speed things up a little bit. So that's kind of the person. So we kind of have a fit for all of them. Right. But it really just comes down to understanding when you look at real estate, what is going to move the ball forward, what is going to get you closer to your actual goals. You know, if it is just more income, then that's going to be a certain type of strategy. If it's to really expand it and build your wealth, that's going to be a different type of strategy. But it all starts the same way. Right. It starts in and how to find and identify a deal. And so that's what we start with. Everybody. And whether you're shopping commercially on the multiple listing service with the real estate agent, or if you want to get your hands dirty and get behind the scenes and you know, go ahead and talk market to sellers and talk to sellers directly without agents involved, it's all the same. It's the same approach and the same understanding. So that's where we start with everybody. But really it just, you know, there's a million ways to make a million bucks in real estate. You just need to choose one, though. And so one thing that we've done is we've identified this framework called the five ones. Right. So we, because if you just have to choose one, which one do you choose? Because there's one target market, there's one investing strategy, there's one lead source, there's one conversion method and then it comes with a one year commitment. And so most people, when they're coming into real estate, they kind of have to change who they're being to really adapt and be able, like they change a lot of mindset work. But if we can take the five ones and bring real estate closer to who they already are, like based on their natural strengths and their preferences and their desires, their personality, we find that we're getting a lot more success with people because they don't have to change who they are so much. So real estate changes for them rather than them changing for real estate. So we call it the real estate DNA code. So that's where we start everybody. And then it just kind of defines the path of which way we're going to go.

Krisstina Wise [51:03 - 51:54]: Yeah, and just you're very active with your students and your clients, your. And so just having your mentorship and your one to one is a big piece of that. And again, anybody that's considering doing this, buyer beware. There's a lot of these clickbait social media young whippersnappers that are claiming they've, you know, got the holy grail to fast financial freedom and success through real estate. And while, I don't know, a lot of what they say is true, there's a lot of sensationalism and a lot of stuff that is something that I don't know, I say be aware of. And if you're going to choose a mentor coach, I'd say choose someone that has some gray hair that's actually been through, you know, two or three cycles and that, you know, we've learned through certain.

Matt Theriault [51:54 - 51:55]: Yeah.

Krisstina Wise [51:55 - 52:03]: Mistakes that came with some naivete, some youthful type of ego or whatever the case is.

Matt Theriault [52:03 - 52:26]: Mm. Yeah. I mean the last 10 years, 14 years, has been pretty easy to make money in real estate because the market has only gone one direction, Right. And now that it's flattened out and we're not sure which way it's going to go next, you know, a lot of the people out there that have been doing it for even 10 years, which would be a long time, don't know what to do next because they don't have the experience.

Krisstina Wise [52:28 - 52:30]: All right, Matt, any final thoughts?

Matt Theriault [52:30 - 52:38]: No, just thank you for inviting me. It was a pleasure. Let's do it again. And I'm complete, let's put it that way.

Krisstina Wise [52:38 - 52:55]: Great. Well, you know, Matt and I are going to be probably holding a real estate investing workshop later in the year and doing some other stuff together, so be on the lookout. And again, I just. I really admire you and trust you and you're the person I call when I get stuck. So thank you.

Matt Theriault [52:55 - 52:57]: Awesome. You're welcome. Thank you.

Krisstina Wise [52:58 - 53:30]: I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did. If you wish to learn more from me about financial abundance, business, and wealth creation, I invite you to check out my new YouTube channel. Subscribe and receive weekly money education videos. You'll find me at YouTube.com christinawise YouTube.com @k r I S S T I N a W I S e Otherwise, join me again next week for an episode of the Wealthy Wealthy podcast where I interview experts about the intersection of wealth, health, and business. Until then, live your wealthy, wealthy life.