[00:00:02] Mike Hewson: People didn't think it was serious, like Mike, he designs playgrounds. I had even people that were quite close to me say, are you really gonna do a playground? You're an artist, that's a bit below you, isn't it? But I think it was worth it because now it has expanded people's ideas about what art can be.

[00:00:17] it's a huge risk to me. I'm the one who's legally exposed. I'm the one who's financially exposed. And I don't take that responsibility lightly. Negligence isn't sexy or interesting. so in order to deliver a project like this, you have to take it really seriously.

[00:00:33] Mike Hewson: I'd put a lot of my energy and time and money into starting to become an artist. And then when the earthquake hit going across this realization I may never ever go back and I'd potentially had lost everything I'd ever owned. I was actually in bare feet at the time, in the middle of this city, half broken down. And I remember looking up at the building and going, is it worth keeping going with this thing?

[00:00:59] Anastasia: Welcome back to the Installation Art podcast, the world's number one podcast about installation art. In each episode, you will hear about the joys and challenges of the medium and get a behind the scenes look at the careers and processes of internationally renowned guests. I am your host, Anastasia Parson.

[00:01:20] Today's episode is a little different because we're recording this conversation from inside the artwork. If you're watching this episode on YouTube, you'll see. My guest is Mike Hewson, a New Zealand artist based in Sydney, whose practice sits somewhere between art, engineering and play. Mike is best known for interactive public installations that invite people, especially children, to climb, explore, touch and make it their own.

[00:01:51] We are recording this conversation inside his mammoth project The Key's Under The Mat, Mike's installation that is currently on view in the Tank at the Art Gallery of New South Wales, in a former underground oil reservoir, transformed into a play park. This work includes a playground, a barbecue area, showers, a sauna, a steam room, even a laundry, this soundproof recording studio and a small artist residency "hovel", as he calls it.

[00:02:26] A huge logistical, conceptual and technical undertaking. So as we're recording this conversation, outside the walls of this soundproof booth are visitors and children playing grilling, splashing water all over the gallery floor. Unheard of! It is an absolute pleasure to introduce my today's guest, Mike Hewson.

[00:02:55] Anastasia: let's start with some quick, easy questions. how's your work life balance?

[00:03:04] Mike Hewson: Ha! Is that a trap question? Work life balance is I'm working on it. Yeah.

[00:03:12] Anastasia: It's a work in progress?

[00:03:13] Mike Hewson: It's a work in progress. Um, Yeah, I mean, I think, projects like this are sort of, for me it is a once in a lifetime project. I don't intend to do anything like it in the future. In terms of how it was delivered, it does require a certain level of imbalance to kind pull off. Yeah, I guess what we'll talk about will probably lead into this question of what is required to deliver large scale installation projects, particularly ones that do something and the resources and energy required.

[00:03:45] And I have a big interest at least this year, in figuring out sustainable ways for those to continue and not deplete everyone else's energy.

[00:03:55] Anastasia: Right? Yeah.

[00:03:57] Mike Hewson: Yeah. there was one of those like psychology graphs of performance versus stress level and you sort of get to this point where it tips up to like a productive level of stress. And then there's a kind of dotted line of the fantasy performance that would happen if you increased stress but really it just like dives. And so, I think in the longer term of a career or even the viability of these kinds of projects, you need to be very mindful of everyone's energy and stress.

[00:04:27] But sometimes you do need to have these outlier projects like this one to like reset the dial, and then you can learn from that about ways that you could more enjoyably or sustainably do that in the future.

[00:04:41] Anastasia: Mm.

[00:04:42] Do

[00:04:42] you have a favorite beverage you like to drink while working in your studio?

[00:04:46] Mike Hewson: Ooh, I've gotten quite used to the tradesman coffee, which is just like instant coffee, Macona.

[00:04:54] Anastasia: Oh, right.

[00:04:55] Mike Hewson: I'm even using like real country style powdered milk with some raw sugar. Yeah.

[00:05:03] Very low

[00:05:04] Anastasia: very treaty,

[00:05:04] very

[00:05:05] Mike Hewson: low budget. But it, it's got a certain charm to It.

[00:05:08] Anastasia: And do you like to listen to anything while working?

[00:05:12] Mike Hewson: It does range. Yeah, there was an ambient phase.

[00:05:15] There was a kind of a afro, emo, piano phase, parley punk phase. There's, yeah, various music. It also depends on your staff and what they like to listen to. 'cause sometimes the more important staff need to choose the music.

[00:05:32] Anastasia: Mm-hmm.

[00:05:33] Yeah. Let's go back in time a bit. Tell me briefly about where did you grow up and what kind of stuff were you into as a kid?

[00:05:46] Mike Hewson: I was born in Dunedin, in New Zealand, Aotearoa and I yeah grew up in a farm adjacent sort of property. So I went to a school that had 11 people when I was there. So it was a very small country school where in hindsight there was very little parameters around what was, acceptable lunchtime activities.

[00:06:09] So there was a big paddock out the back that we could explore. There was sheep, one of the kids brought their motorbike to school, so there's this sort of quite yeah, bring your pet to school day but people brought like cows and I don't actually know, I think cows might've been a stretch. All sorts of farm animals were brought to school. And yeah, it was a fairly free formed place that I guess has led to me doing these... they're not that risky, but they're certainly more exploratory than people are used to in the city.

[00:06:40] Anastasia: Mm-hmm. And how did you come to discover art?

[00:06:43] Mike Hewson: My grandmother, Nairy was

[00:06:47] an artist and big participator in the arts community in Christchurch. She ran a little gallery in the late sixties, early seventies. Um, sort of Sucked my grandfather into making that a big priority in their lives. And I wasn't around it so much, but there was a certain kind of beauty and allure to the work that she did with artists.

[00:07:12] And I think that mulled away in the background. And it was always a sort of assumption going through school that art would be a part of my life. I didn't end up following through with much art at school, but As soon as I completed school i, yeah, immediately started painting and I did like a gap year hitchhiking around.

[00:07:30] And when I was at engineering school, so I took the more structured safe route. And I was painting during that period. So it was sort of this slow build. Um, I guess there was a part of me that Needed some sort of structure or that was where my curiosity was. And then in, in my late twenties, early thirties, that's when I went to art school and yeah did a master's.

[00:07:53] And yeah, just I'm a bit, I'm a bit, I'm a bit of a um, yeah, i'm slow in that I come to things gradually. But I'm still here.

[00:08:02] Anastasia: So How did you said you were painting, how did you get into making installation stuff?

[00:08:10] Mike Hewson: yeah, I guess my first artwork was landscape painting the most maybe kitch, maybe romantic kind of...

[00:08:19] well, it was, It was at least my curiosity that led me into art. And as I kept going through, I was curious about what my particular contribution might be. And in Christchurch there was a big earthquake in 2011 and I'd already started exploring larger scale projects, but they were more like mural, kinda like, you know JR's paste ups.

[00:08:45] Anastasia: Mm-hmm.

[00:08:45] Mike Hewson: Interacting with architectural scale works but I was doing images of architecture. And then after this big earthquake, which destroyed a lot of the city, I was grappling with how I would or how to make sense of it for myself, but also how I could contribute to other people understanding all the losses and the rapid changes. So I sort of used my engineering creds to smuggle myself into the city or at least use that platform to get people's trust in order to go into an unsafe environment and do these large scale paste-up works, which were effectively images of spaces or that exact space but from a different perspective. So there's sort of slightly trompe l'oeil.

[00:09:26] Um, And that was more immersive, so it was much more related to the scale of a body in relationship to a building. And then it sort of progressed from there into my first major sculpture work in Wollongong. Which was after my new York period where I studied at Columbia. And I didn't notice a tangible shift while I was at art school. But afterwards I, that was when I first did a sculpture project. Which is physical, permanent, as opposed to all the previous works were very impermanent in that even if the building was only gonna be up for two weeks before it got demoed, or the earth shook and brought the building down I was okay with that.

[00:10:10] But the next project when people actually pay you to do something, there's a certain accountability to the public to make it last. So it was less from my desire for it to endure and more for the viability of the art form that it endure.

[00:10:26] yeah. So as soon as you do that, you have to choose materials which are permanent and can handle UV and rain, which is like not very many materials

[00:10:34] Anastasia: Mm, especially the Australian UV.

[00:10:37] Mike Hewson: Especially

[00:10:37] Australian UV and humidity. So that's basically leaves you with stone, any sort of mixed masonry like concrete, various forms of steel but still they need, if they're not stainless, they need paint systems.

[00:10:51] Plastics often the last fairly well. I've been using like living material like trees and they regenerate. And then there is some sort of fabrics which can last in the uv, but then you have to build them in with some sort of maintenance schedule that they get refreshed because they're also vulnerable to the other veneer of weathering, which is graffiti or human meddling, you know, box cutter or whatever other sorts implements are used to, uh, muddle with the artwork. So I think it's interesting to move from an artist being inside, presenting artwork in a gallery where really any material you can get away with.

[00:11:29] You know, I mean, I guess the work that I'm making at the moment is the opposite of say like Sarah Sze's work, which is little piece of nylon with a beautiful bit of paper stuck to it, like the most lightweight and ephemeral things.

[00:11:43] If you let a snotty little kid run around in a place like that without rules, it just doesn't work unfortunately. So it really informs the material choice and the proportions of an artwork.

[00:11:56] And I, yeah, I think it is the big, I guess in interactive art, I haven't used that word, but people use that in relationship to my artwork. As soon as you allow people to have less rules around a sculpture, it very quickly changes its form, material and structure.

[00:12:12] Anastasia: Mm-hmm. So what prompted you to start making playgrounds as your artworks?

[00:12:18] Mike Hewson: so initially in the Wollongong project the government architect's office had renovated one of those like eighties malls. A lot of them were pedestrianized, a lot of like brick fountains, steel archways, a lot of kind of bitsy um, landscape architecture. And they'd sort of modernized it by stripping it all out, leaving a fire access corridor, which ends up as regulations get revised and revised, that corridor's larger and larger. So there's, you can put less and less in public space. And they also had a Sort of a public nuisance issue with people gathering in certain areas. There was like a methadone clinic along the strip, and it ended up being a great gathering place. So council decided to strip out most of the seating or make it very sparse, which makes it less social, but it also means that no one wants to be there.

[00:13:16] So in this project they were like, we need to do an artwork that somehow it works with our identity and also no one wants to come here. It's not really part of the brief but I took it on, I was like well, we need to shift how the space is used. So then it brought in this idea of use and maybe the artwork could do a lot of things at once.

[00:13:35] So we had these forklift rocks, kinda like rent a rock thing, where carve like forklift tines into the sandstone that were, were placed throughout to make places of gathering. And then there was some more just sculpture proper, palmtree up a lamppost. And down the bottom end, the council had removed a playground the reno and not replaced it. And I was like oh, you know, maybe I can do a sculpture playground. Not thinking too much about the playground part but more as a opportunity for sculpture. And it turned out it was maybe the more interesting part of that project. And also it was the one I got the less grief for. 'Cause the public were really angry at the artworks. They saw it as very pretentious.

[00:14:17] Anastasia: Yeah. I saw that there was quite a bit of flack about, especially that palm tree up the pole.

[00:14:25] Mike Hewson: It really,

[00:14:25] How did it

[00:14:26] Anastasia: feel getting this kind of feedback for your first big project?

[00:14:31] Mike Hewson: Yeah, I wasn't, I wasn't quite ready for it because I think one of the big misunderstandings with these public projects is as soon as you start making stuff at infrastructure scale, it's so costly. Like you have to pay the same builders and construction workers who build roads, highways, bridges and houses to do your project. And if they are an artwork, they're often much more interesting, much more complex. So the budgets required are much higher, but the public don't wanna know about that. And that project was hugely over budget and I had to wear all the costs.

[00:15:03] I even went into debt. that I'm still paying off on that one. And so when people are grizzling about you sort of, you know... again, they don't really wanna know the actual truth. I think for that project, there was a published budget of like 430,000 Australian dollars,

[00:15:17] Anastasia: which isn't really that much.

[00:15:18] Mike Hewson: Isn't that much but the media sort of portrayed it in a way that the palm tree up the pole

[00:15:24] Anastasia: cost all that money

[00:15:25] Mike Hewson: cost that. When really it was like about 15% of the project. So I delivered on. now I wouldn't do that project for probably be like a $2 million project. But I was young and keen and willing 'cause I knew that also you have to prove... you know, the projects like that hadn't been done before. Um, Like a kind of interactive physical playground sculpture where it does a lot of things without barriers around it. So I knew that I had to earn that respect. But the playground part of that, to your earlier point, was the bit that I didn't get so much scrutiny over 'cause it did something. And also there's not many public art opportunities.

[00:16:02] So I was like, if there is some infrastructure money to be spent on playgrounds, and here we are doing a lot of public realm development, huge number of developments. And so there is a need for these bits of infrastructure. So I was like how about I convince these people commissioning projects to combine their landscape architecture budget, the building budget, whatever the art budget, whatever other community budget there is, package it together and I'll deliver on this outcome.

[00:16:29] And a lot of people early on, before this was, I was a bit more institutional in that now I've gotta show at a institution. People didn't think it was serious. I was like Mike, he designs playgrounds.

[00:16:42] Anastasia: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:43] Mike Hewson: It was no reference to art. And I think a lot of people really just saw it as not serious. And I sort of knew where it was going. I had the suspicion that it is interesting to expand how I saw artworks being interacted with. Or even just the viability of art itself. Or my version of it. yeah.

[00:17:04] So it felt quite lonely in the early days. Like the first project that I did, which was only a playground in St. Peter's, 2020. You know, I had even people that were quite close to me sort of say, are you really gonna do a playground? You're an artist, that's a bit below you, isn't it? And yeah, so I felt a little lonely, sort of, going well, no, I think...

[00:17:25] there were some people that were like nah, this is good. Pursue it. So I did have that encouragement. But there is that uncertainty when you're not known in the art world, or like particularly accepted as a someone at the table, it is hard to go away from that. But I think it was worth it because now it's, it has, I think, expanded people's ideas about what art can be.

[00:17:51] And I don't think it only needs to be this because we need to keep the breadth of what art is. And it can be a big empty room with one thing in it, like that's the artist's choice. But I think this project here has at least shown that artists can do much more than they're often allowed to.

[00:18:09] And it can actually work really well for institutions. Because I guess the viability of institutions is also up for debate at the moment,

[00:18:19] Anastasia: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:19] Mike Hewson: from a financial perspective. And they are finding increasing needs to increasing demands on them to, in some sense pander to the public but also meet their needs. But then there's also responsibility to art proper to deliver something that gives you that like strong feeling or sense or surprise or something that's not fully you know, comprehendible.

[00:18:45] Anastasia: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:46] Mike Hewson: of amazing thing you get when you see a really good artwork, which doesn't happen very often. But that does need to be protected. Cause we're not trying to make selfie museums or adult daycare or, none of that stuff. You know, The 3D Funhouse. For me that's not art.

[00:19:01] But I have used what I've been trying to do here is I guess work with people's natural instincts and curiosities to draw them here. So, Or just their basic needs, which is like, some people love saunaing. And so the idea that you can like do your washing and have a sauna while your kid's on a playground, that's like a draw card that's unrelated to art. I'm going for that.

[00:19:26] And then while you're there, you are in this environment, which is, yeah, I think it's uh, yeah. Yeah. It's been a, been a interesting road and I'm glad that yeah, it's hit a really good note for the public, I think.

[00:19:39] Anastasia: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:40] So how did those first opportunities come about? How did you get those projects going?

[00:19:49] Mike Hewson: I think the engineer card, like having worked in construction. So I, I studied engineering and then worked in marine construction for a number of years. And I would oscillate like between working for a year, saving, going back. Self-funding projects, going back, working for a year, self-funding projects. Which enabled me to work at a large scale but also outside of institutional approval or the sort of regular power brokers that decide who gets to be seen.

[00:20:19] So there was a period where it's like you know, I was that kind of enthusiastic hobbyist in a lot of people's minds. cute little engineer trying to be creative. Um. Which did allow me still to explore these ideas Yeah. Build, Build a portfolio as I saw fit. And I never really worked with a gallery. But that also allowed me to not have to... I could let my instincts about where I wanted to head drive my next decision. And it wasn't so much based off what needed to sell or what people liked at the time. 'Cause I did get in a little bit of a hole or at least a box where people are like you're the big sticker guy. You do those past ups. And that's all people saw in what I was doing. Which is fine 'cause it's all I'd done at that point. But I guess I'd seen: no, no, this is heading somewhere that people don't often let you go, especially if it's new territory. So I think that was one thing that allowed me to be independent, is that I had a income stream separate from art.

[00:21:24] And then yeah, I guess whatever happened in Columbia shifted my perspective on what I could do or, say. I mean, I guess I grew up a little bit or something, felt a little bit more comfortable having my own voice or saying something, making something.

[00:21:39] And then just earning respect and it wasn't inevitable that my projects would succeed. And so the first project, I demonstrated a whole bunch about what could actually work in public space. But then there were some things that, either didn't work or I could learn from for future projects.

[00:21:57] And then I had to insist on the next project. The Fences project, the council didn't wanna touch me at the time because there was no precedent for allowing an artist to like design a piece of infrastructure that sat within a very specific set of regulations around playground design standards. They wanted to do part of a playground next to my artwork. They wanted me to do a playful sculpture and they would do the, the playground. And I had to really put it to them that I'd quit the project if they didn't let me do the full thing, which was a huge amount of money for me at the time to turn down. But I had to say no, the artwork is gonna be the playground, and that's all there will be.

[00:22:36] But then they said yeah, all good, but we want nothing to do with it. So it was all on me to deliver, certify, sign off, hand over. Um, Wow. But then it was hugely successful at one playground of the year. It's, been used as an example of inclusive play and working with Heritage, but that was something I had to go alone on.

[00:22:59] I had to get a very specific set of insurance. I'm insured with like Lloyd's in London because uh. when you get into this design construct space where you're both the designer and the builder, it's a much more complicated insurance setup.

[00:23:13] Anastasia: So you are basically like the artist, the fabricator, the engineer. Who signs off on that in the end?

[00:23:18] Mike Hewson: Well, I work with a lot of well qualified people and I think that's one of my skills as I know what I'm not good at and when to pull on other people's resources or at least have them peer review. So, The playgrounds certifiers that I work with are on the Australian Standards Committee.

[00:23:34] So they know they're up innovating and updating these standards. And yeah, the engineers that I work with, we go back and forth. You develop a sense of trust and you can work in a quite a nimble manner when you have good relationships and people you trust.

[00:23:49] Anastasia: go about finding those people in the first place?

[00:23:53] Mike Hewson: It's, it's sort of been whoever blows in the door, but it's um...

[00:23:59] Anastasia: Have people actually come to you, been like, hi, I wanna work with you?

[00:24:02] Mike Hewson: Uh, no, I think it was like you, I've always had to seek things out. Things are a little bit starting to come my way as I've, but it's pretty late. I've been doing this stuff for a while. I've had to almost beg people to work on my projects because it is so strange. I remember the guys that are working for me at the moment when I first told them what I was planning on doing two years ago, it'd sound insane. I was The kind of number of things that I said was gonna happen in the next two years to grow up to the capacity to deliver a project like that.

[00:24:33] And that was very hard to sell that to people until... you know, now there you see it, you're like, oh, I can see what structure I would fit in.

[00:24:41] mm-hmm.

[00:24:41] And then I think sometimes you just find a good energetic fit. Like you have an instinct about whether you like the person and you can tell very quickly whether they're capable or competent. And I think once you strike a good seam, you are like, I like this person. You find out who they like and then it goes from there. yeah, I guess a lot, lot of it's on just interpersonal friendships and trust and yeah.

[00:25:06] Anastasia: Is there anything you ever wanted to do and you were told: Absolutely not, you can't do that?

[00:25:12] Mike Hewson: Yeah. A lot of things. Yeah, I mean. Most of this project.

[00:25:17] Anastasia: Really? The gallery was pushing back?

[00:25:19] Mike Hewson: Yeah, I mean, they were pushing back but they also invited me to be here. Like, They did incredibly well taking the project on. And for an institution to work in this manner is, it's so challenging. Because you do become vulnerable to the extent that you have to share risk with an artist.

[00:25:41] but that is the, you know, you, you you both have skin in the game. But when you also have that shared responsibility and exposure, it is also a great opportunity. It's the special source for a good project where people are both willing to go the whole way and they're willing to make themselves vulnerable enough.

[00:26:02] When people are in this mode of protection and um Wiping their hands of responsibility, which is really the normal legal framework for delivering anything in life, it's like minimum risk, minimum exposure, but it doesn't deliver a project like this. I had to be willing to go: I believe this needs to be done for a lot of reasons, to just basically show in a bureaucratic setting that people know how to live. People can interact with complex spaces in a way that's whimsical, fun and, responsible amount of, you know, risk.

[00:26:39] But there's no financial incentive in most settings to bother to demonstrate that. It's incentivized not to, but I think it's interesting. And I also think it's very important for these new precedents to be demonstrated and for them to succeed, to allow other people to go down this route.

[00:27:00] it's a huge risk to me because I'm the one who's legally exposed. I'm the one who's financially exposed. And I don't take that responsibility lightly.

[00:27:11] Negligence isn't like sexy or interesting. And so in order to deliver a project like this, you have to take it really seriously. have to go: what's the bigger thing that's happening here that we need to make sure happens? Which is to allow people to have more freedom than they're currently given, or to be encouraged to interact with things in a way that's yeah, less encumbered.

[00:27:37] Anastasia: Your playgrounds and installations look pretty precarious. Like There's planks that look like they're randomly just put across a fence or like a log balancing on top of a bunch of buckets. How do you design that tension while still keeping it safe for children?

[00:27:59] Mike Hewson: Yeah. Well, I guess there's a, uh, a lot of installation art from the last 40 or 50 years, which is in that realm of things stacked on things or things balanced. The sort of precarity of you know, the composition of objects, common objects or art objects in at least an artistic sense is well, well within the kind of canon of things that artists do. And I think bringing that into a setting where people hang off them or yank 'em or push them, it does shift it to an extent because...

[00:28:34] I often try and put a certain in the objects in the way that they're, hung that it's kind of believable that it would, it would work like that so long as you were being careful. So like a plank does bridge between two things. You could do that in your backyard and it would be fine. If someone wants to break the thing, yeah of course they can take the plank off. Or if there was a log sitting on a bunch of buckets, you can imagine that would actually work. It's sort of believable.

[00:29:03] Like I think even the palm tree up the pole has fooled a lot of people because people actually think that I just strapped a tree up there with truck straps. 'Cause there is an illusion, like it was, you know, there's 3D Custom clamps that go around the tree with elastomeric resin, there's a hidden stainless steel tray with a drain underneath and all sorts of infrastructure hidden inside to... for the illusion.

[00:29:26] Anastasia: Yeah and people would probably be mad like, oh, the palm tree's gonna die.

[00:29:29] Mike Hewson: Yeah. People thought they would last a couple weeks. Which was what was the first insult. They're like, how dare you spend our money and give us like a piece of junk.

[00:29:37] Um, So I think there is something in how I've built things that it that is slightly believable. It's like, that would work. That could work. It's maybe a little bit dodgy but it's a pass.

[00:29:50] And I think a lot of that it exists well within art and museums. Like I guess abstract sculpture or whatever you call it? Uh. Does look like you could just push it over.

[00:30:00] Anastasia: of,

[00:30:01] A lot of it does, except the difference with your work is that people can touch it and interact with it and children can climb all over it and not

[00:30:11] Mike Hewson: die.

[00:30:11] Yeah. Not die. Yeah. Or not

[00:30:12] Anastasia: or not ruin the artwork, yeah exactly.

[00:30:14] Yeah.

[00:30:14] Mike Hewson: Yeah. I haven't tried to be too deceptive because I think, you know, I guess there's an extent where, There is a certain amount of kitch in the idea of, oh, how's the thing balancing on the other thing when there's no... so I've tried to sort of avoid it being too like oh my God, how's it balancing? But that precarity I think is just part of life and we know that we can stack things. But also, at least in, in public space, there are certain hardness to it.

[00:30:44] This concrete seat can't move. And then when you're in public space and everything can't be shifted 'cause it's so bolted down. Maybe it's just me, but I feel a certain sense of a lost agency where you feel like there's less possibility in life 'cause everything's prescribed, everything's got a design standard, nothing really changes.

[00:31:05] Anastasia: Interesting. is that why you put a bunch of boulders on wheels?

[00:31:08] Mike Hewson: Yeah. I think it's this idea that people can move something, something can shift. They could do this because they can sort of, they can see the movement in it. They can see the possibility of movement, even if you can't.

[00:31:20] just the fact that someone has done that in public space, which alludes to movement, it alludes to decay, it alludes to the fact that things do fall apart. That is just the reality of life. The Christchurch earthquake, 70% of the central city got essentially knocked down. So all these things that are like hard and, you know, very prescribed and, and entrenched can actually change, should we want to change the shape of things.

[00:31:47] And I think when the artworks that I've made have that sort of built into them, whereas it's like there's an acknowledgement of decay and we love ruins. I don't know what intrigues us about that, but I think it connects with our own, our own demise and or our own aging. And we want to understand that and be close to it.

[00:32:09] And so when we see these things like the plaster coming off a wall or a fig tree growing out of brick or all of these things, we see a bit of beauty in it. But it also, I don't know, I think we're slightly comforted by the fact that things can fall apart a little bit. So I think that's part of what's led me to make things look a little bit more slapped together, backyard.

[00:32:31] Yeah.

[00:32:32] Anastasia: Can you talk to me a bit about how you go about sourcing your materials? 'Cause from what I hear, at least, everything in here is somehow found objects or Yes. Tell me about it.

[00:32:47] Mike Hewson: Well, The starting point for this project was very early on the curator, Justin had really enjoyed the brightness of the buckets playground that I'd done.

[00:32:58] But when we brought some bright materials down here, it just seemed a little bit out of touch with the building itself. The tapestry of colors, almost like royal tones hidden in the, behind the oil layers on the concrete that you know, my instinct was that we should bring in materials that have already had a life much like this building, so they drop back into the color palette that would draw out these like more subtle muted colors. And so the best way to do that was just aged materials that had a life already. And it sort of connected with, you know, this is a 20th century relic. so we brought in other objects that had probably spent the best part of the 20th century beating around Sydney or other parts of Australia.

[00:33:42] so that was sort of more of a color tonal choice, but it also was there's a certain warmth and energy and objects that have had a previous life and they come with their little interesting quirks.

[00:33:57] Anastasia: So where did you get all this? There's so much stuff!

[00:34:01] Mike Hewson: People soon know that Mike's collecting junks, they'll just drop it off. Okay. We went to, reached out to Place New South Wales, which is a government agency that had a big collection of I guess historically significant materials or leftover infrastructure materials that they can't give away or sell.

[00:34:20] It's not quite heritage, but it's not sellable. So they, It's very hard to use and it's very hard 'cause you have to give it to a landscape architect to draw it up, put it in a tender brief, make a designer use it, give it back to a builder, and then they go, where's the pallet gone? So there's all these materials that people can't use 'cause it's just too hard. Even in a private setting. it's just too complicated to work with materials unless you really want to.

[00:34:44] And often the big problem is you have to actually collect them, do an inventory to see what you have and then do your design based off that. So a lot of Gumtree things, things I saw on the side of the road that would call up the person. Friends that I know, that said, oh, you should talk to such and such.

[00:35:01] Like, That's how we got the opera house panels. I don't know if you realize, but there's there's a huge amount of precast panels. I don't even know if it's technically okay for me to have them, but I bought them off a farmer who had been stashing 'em in property in like central New South Wales. I think they were re removed maybe when they built the opera bar. The person who'd demolished it kept all these panels. There's a few like, they've got like 1968 written on the side of some of them.

[00:35:30]

[00:35:30] Anastasia: Is that the floor?

[00:35:32] Mike Hewson: Parts of It But yeah, really, like how do you get there? I don't know. I just it came my way and I chased it down and made it fit into the project.

[00:35:39] So there's all sorts of materials that i've spotted along the way. It's not clever in the sense that you know, the conceptual artists might chase out a particular kind of flower from a thing or a seed from here that represents this. For me, it's more what is in my proximity, what are people offering, how can I best collect as much as possible for this show?

[00:36:03] Anastasia: How long was the preparation period?

[00:36:07] Mike Hewson: Well one of the things I said to the gallery was that I would need a large warehouse space. I'd spend most of the money on rent, labor logistics. 'cause when you work with these complex, heavy things, you need space to store it and you also need the equipment and the people to work with it.

[00:36:24] So I got a space in October, 2024, so I had about one year from, I think. It was about a year from when I signed the contract to opening. So it was very short.

[00:36:37] Anastasia: That is not long at all!

[00:36:39] Mike Hewson: It was very short. But it also: more time, more money. So it also needed to be fast. We did start a conversation probably almost a year before that, but it was just a conversation.

[00:36:53] And yeah, I said this needs to be a stumble to the finish project because building a permanent effectively equivalent of a permanent infrastructure project inside a heritage building is prohibitively difficult and complex and the only way it'll work is if I start now and I just go and we design it as we're going and we build it and we collect the materials as we're going and we innovate.

[00:37:20] And so the gallery was amazing and their Ability to work with me on what did and would make any sensible bureaucrat terrified and, and very stressed about the level of uncertainty required, at least for this project.

[00:37:36] Anastasia: So you didn't have really a clear vision of what would be eventually in here?

[00:37:43] Mike Hewson: No. We had a very, I mean, if you look at the early sketches and conversations or photos we shared, it's pretty much the same thing.

[00:37:49] But in terms of the exact materials, I mean, I extended myself a lot. Building a sauna In a shed using found materials. So you've got heat, you've got water, like hot water, you've got infrastructure, plumbing.

[00:38:04] We have barbecues. So that has dealing with fumes and smoke that you have to clean the odor out of the air. There were so many like new precedents. The fire design for this thing, you know, safe fire egress, disability access. The most challenging parts of the project, they're not obvious at all, even building the floor up.

[00:38:26] So

[00:38:26] Anastasia: that's insane!

[00:38:27] Mike Hewson: Yeah. Now that we've done it, you would do the project in a different way in the future. I mean this still is the smartest way to do it. But if we did it again, there would be a much less stressful way of coming to it. But again, back then this wasn't, this is much more than the gallery thought they were initially getting.

[00:38:48] So, But that's because no one would've trusted me to...

[00:38:53] Anastasia: deliver

[00:38:53] on that much.

[00:38:54] Mike Hewson: Yeah.

[00:38:55] Yeah. And nor should they, because it hadn't been done before. So there's this risk that, I think it's very interesting that the institution took. I mean, I also say risk. I also think it's a safe, smart bet because I have delivered well before. But also they were vulnerable to an extent in that it's not locked in, it's not guaranteed, it's not AAA rated security,

[00:39:17] Anastasia: yeah. And you're not showing something you already have sitting in

[00:39:20] Mike Hewson: Yeah, exactly. They wanted a playground. I, we did the playground in the... arguably in the last week or two of the project, like that was almost done in our sleep. All the hard parts was working with getting 250 amp, three-phase in, distributed under the floor. Smoke baffles because it becomes a separate fire compartment under the floor, 'cause we're raising the floor. But we needed to raise the floor so that water could drain. So we built like a tanked, basically swimming pool in the wet zone. So all the water would run down, drained by gravity into a tank and then we pump it out. So we pumped water in, pump water out. All of that stuff that's hidden was, incredibly complex to build.

[00:40:00] And even bringing, 'cause we had to build a floor with the fire compartments and all the infrastructure underneath and then bring in the forklifts with the heavy objects and the concrete and the bricks. And the floor had to be temporarily strong enough to support these fully loaded forklifts.

[00:40:17] So the complexity of, and we only had, I think it was eight or nine weeks from start to opening. So it's uh. Anyway, big, huge credit to the gallery for taking it on because it was, yeah, it was a hard one.

[00:40:33] Anastasia: Do you have any stories of when something wasn't working? Logistical challenges?

[00:40:41] Mike Hewson: Oh, I mean, you know, I guess when a big team is under so much pressure to deliver so much for so little, I think we all stop working to an extent. You know, you sort of have a certain amount of overload.

[00:40:55] But I mean, one thing that's constantly being uh, overworked is the bucket off the sauna. That was done as my version of wanting to do like an ice bath, but not make it too, like Bondi dick

[00:41:08] bro.

[00:41:09] So I thought the chilled water in a bucket would be a nice way of doing it, but I didn't think that it would become

[00:41:14] Anastasia: it's like the main attraction

[00:41:15] Mike Hewson: the, the main attraction. And So that

[00:41:18] has gotten an absolute thrashing. So there's been a lot of, like, on the maintenance chat, a lot of you need to fix the bucket asap because everyone needs it and wants it.

[00:41:28] but no, look, I knew this project would work. when the gallery first approached me, I didn't for a second... even though it is well outside of, you know, a huge privilege for an artist to get offered a project at this scale. But I didn't have imposter syndrome. Like it wasn't for me. This was the right time for this project.

[00:41:48] I think even in two years time it wouldn't have been right. It was like I had the energy, I knew what needed to be done and yeah. But that we're all as a team still reeling from everything that we did and trying to make, some, trying to make sense of it all and how it fits

[00:42:07] Anastasia: Mm. So do you get regular call outs for maintenance or how does this side of it work?

[00:42:15] Mike Hewson: We hadn't anticipated it to be such a huge success in terms of the number of visitors and how long people stay for. I think the gallery initially were like unsure whether people would actually know how to interact with anything.

[00:42:32] They were like, surely people aren't going to actually come and use the sauna or bring food. And I was like you just wait. Especially sauna people, they're crazy. They'll be here every day.

[00:42:41] Anastasia: I've been in there.

[00:42:42] Mike Hewson: Yeah. And I think because of they've blown their record visitor numbers by like such... I think a blockbuster show's in the 150-170,000 in three months. That's like the big time ones. And in that same period we've had 210 to 220,000 through, something like that. Including like, a week or two ago they had about 6,000 through, which is the most they've ever had in this Tank ever since the building opened. And that was just on a Friday.

[00:43:13] And with very few individual leaders as well, mediating the interactions, which is what I said to them at the start. I was like, one of the big costs that kills projects is the cost to the labor required to manage minded.

[00:43:29] Yeah. People's interactions with it, which is huge. And it's it's one of the big problems with these projects is how do you manage the people, especially if you let them go.

[00:43:40] So I just said, let's build it like a public park. And council doesn't have to come down and check how you're cooking your steaks or where you're sitting, like they just, parks work because it's public space and you know, It's been a, the piazza, it can do a lot of things all at once. You just need to come and blow the leaves away and yeah, just some basic maintenance.

[00:44:01] And so we used that approach. I was like, let's use the same design principles that are well accepted in Australia about safe public space design. We Use a playground code for the play area. We use the standard Australian quintessential electric public barbecue. Like All these things people already know. So you are leveraging people's own experiences and ways of living to make it easy for everyone else. You sort of work with these, I just got commercial washing machines, I got the speed queen. Everything that people already know and that allows, you don't need to shush people or bother them to an extent.

[00:44:36] I mean, there's, there's a little bit that needs to be done. but you know, we're, We're just managing So, so yes, there are call outs. There has been small fixes, but in a two and a half thousand square meter space, that's been fully utilized, it's actually takes quite a bit of time to keep up with those small jobs when you're trying to do other things, yeah.

[00:45:00] Anastasia: So you're quite regularly then?

[00:45:03] Mike Hewson: Yeah, I try and not be, but it's just inevitably, you know, you want for the show to be a success. I really hate things that don't work. Yeah, it really... that's why I've only done very static things in the past because they very rarely break and as soon as you do things that move or there's a button or something twists

[00:45:23] Yeah. Then they can break down. And so it's been, even though we've been massively burnt out and it's not something we get paid to do, I see it as my responsibility to make sure the thing works as best possible because it does become a new precedent, that's important to me.

[00:45:40] Yeah.

[00:45:41] Anastasia: What is gonna happen to all the stuff when this show is over?

[00:45:45] Mike Hewson: Ooh! Well, we're working on that. Everything was built in a way, and I'm not sure if this is obvious. I was like, all of the things that you see in the park should be outdoor materials and you'll get a strange feeling that you're outside

[00:46:00] Anastasia: actually.

[00:46:01] Yeah. And the way you've done the lighting, I forget that we are underground and this isn't daylight. The color of the light is just the right tone.

[00:46:11] Mike Hewson: Yeah. Yeah, well that's, I mean, there's some very subtle like, very important I think master strokes that we did first up, which I wanted bright light with no column shadows. And I wanted like, even skin tones. Because I think no one's seen the space. And it's the only way of lighting the columns and the walls to see them in their beauty. But also the sound curtain that we wrapped around the two walls and now that is doing in terms of making it a pleasant sensory experience that's doing 80% of the work. If that was there, this place would be awful.

[00:46:46] Anastasia: I was what the hell that was for!

[00:46:49] Mike Hewson: Yeah, it's a very, very effective, Mike way of doing a giant mural that's site specific, but it is making it so much more comfortable. Before we put up that curtain, when we started install, one angle grinder was so deafening down in the space that you couldn't work down there. Soon as we got the curtain up, it changed everything. And Actually, so we did work with an acoustics engineer to lay, things out, to bring the reverb right down to like a good level for live music.

[00:47:22] To your question of where it's gonna go, I've used outdoor materials because they can be stored outside afterwards.

[00:47:29] And so everything was built in a way that it can do its life outside later because all these things can go into a park. So the concrete slabs I've used glass reinforcing. So it's this kind of rarely used but amazing kind of reinforcing like steel, but it doesn't rust. So those kind of crazy slab paintings on the floor can be lifted up and re-put in public space permanently and they will last.

[00:47:57] All of the fake columns that I made. But they're from real marine grade concrete with the same so they can be incorporated into public sculpture. All of the structures have been built effectively to code waterproof, flashed, insulated. They've got their own distribution boards, you just have to plug power in.

[00:48:15] So all of the structures fit on a truck in the freight elevator and can go to another place.

[00:48:21] And the palm trees, obviously they'll, they'll find their way into other artworks. yeah, I mean, I guess if people are gonna put so much effort and love into this, including me, then it should have a life. It's the responsible thing for it to have another life. And also financially, that's the only viable way you create like this much junk. It's costly to throw it out. It's also so wasteful. Just on so many levels.

[00:48:47] And um, yeah, just dull. I mean, I think the idea of all this waste for a short-lived experience is just, yeah, it's a bit awful.

[00:48:56] So, Yeah, there's a lot of reasons we've done that and it was very difficult to do that. And I think a lot of people were like, why are you spending so much effort on the stuff that won't, like say there's no reason to make this building waterproof.

[00:49:11] Right. Or, there's so many things that weren't necessary at the time, but you know, who's gonna be lumped with this after the show gets deinstalled? Me! And who's gonna not wanna buy it if it's just a big, like, liability? Anyone else.

[00:49:27] So you know, you're just thinking ahead to go, what, what are we trying to do here? And what could it be? And if you build it with this redundancy. Like, a lot of the structures that we build, you just build them extra tough so you don't have to worry about how many kgs the drunk person is that's interacting. you know, you just... And I think I learned that in marine construction is there's like typical engineering loading. And you go to the ocean, the ocean doesn't care. So you just make it the easiest, toughest way. And then often, that allows you to just let people live. So yeah, it'll be interesting to see where it goes. I would like to see it re-homed in sections.

[00:50:08] Anastasia: Mm. let's actually talk about that, the financial aspect. I am imagining most of your projects are paid through commission fees, artist fees. Do you have another commercial side where you're selling stuff or you're making maybe smaller things that you can sell?

[00:50:27] Mike Hewson: Yeah. Well that's a, That's the year of the horse for me is like, sell, sell, sell. Because it hasn't been, especially when you build up to a scale where you have the infrastructure and the people and the team to do this, the overheads are like huge. So you know, it's gonna be a very intense year for me. Incredibly stressful. Or actually as soon as the show opened, it became even more stressful.

[00:50:48] But the financial viability is the focus this year. So we are doing everything from merch that will hopefully try and sell internationally. Because I think this thing is like, you wanna have a free park like this, it's all good and well, but who's gonna pay for it? And you know, like philanthropy only can go so far.

[00:51:08] And people also in philanthropy wanna see what else you are doing to make this happen that doesn't involve them and your handout. So, you know, Government funding's one bit. I mean, I went in a lot personally. I made a bunch of money off my first, probably the first profit I made on a project recently that opens shortly. And all of that I put in. Huge loan, a huge amount of debt. And this huge amount of um, money still owed to people that I'm trying to figure out how to, so it was hugely like, above and beyond.

[00:51:39] Anastasia: But, so you're saying that the budget that the gallery had for this wasn't enough, basically? You went over budget and you put in your own money?

[00:51:48] Mike Hewson: Well, I mean, I'm not sure how much I should say in this setting other than the realities of delivering a project like this is unsurprising. We all wanted this. There's only so much a gallery agree to, given their fiscal responsibilities to a lot of different people, including the public.

[00:52:06] And also, you know, commissioning a person who hasn't proven themselves in this setting at this scale. So, I put my hand up for being a part of the challenges and the ongoing fallout of doing something at this scale.

[00:52:20] But what i'm focusing on this year is that we always need to do more to find ways to make these projects sustainable. And so that for me will be, and has been, I did a sellout show with Michael Lett at Sydney Contemporary of smaller sculptures. We are doing merch. I'll be selling smaller kind of repeated elements from the artwork to put on their farm property. Okay.

[00:52:48] Um, yeah, there'll be overseas projects, public art commissions, but also like, you know, it's just trying to find ways that are already out there. Like councils are commissioning playground projects, but their commissioning process doesn't allow for this kind of, or my contribution.

[00:53:06] Anastasia: Would you ever redo something like this and then just charge entry fees?

[00:53:13] Mike Hewson: Yeah, I mean, I don't see any problem with charging an entry fee, I mean. You go to some of those like, bounce or one of those, you know, take your kids to the trampoline place or the team labs or whatever, like, People don't mind if someone's gonna look after their kids, they don't mind paying. I really don't think this particular project was always gonna be free. Which is part of it's charm too 'cause people have come here because it is free and I think there's something really special about that.

[00:53:40] But there is a lot of other opportunities that I guess I wasn't across, 'cause I was doing already so many things all at once. Where there is an opportunity for, say, merch to be a big part of it, or people to connect with the artwork in a way that's relatively inexpensive but very helpful.

[00:53:56] Anastasia: So where are you selling this merch? Where can people find it?

[00:53:59] Mike Hewson: We're working on a website at the moment. There is a little merch shop in an vending machine, at the entrance.

[00:54:03] Anastasia: Mhm.

[00:54:04] Mike Hewson: And I think, you know what, there's been huge interest even at that thing. It's more about what is the responsible way of making sure you can continue with your art practice without diluting it or taking the energy out of it.

[00:54:17] And I guess I've been very careful to not do that too soon. Now I feel like I'm at a good point where I can do something that is like still genuine. But also accessible. And that's a part of it. And you know, there could be a cafe and bar connected to a project like this that can generate income.

[00:54:35] Because these projects, I mean, the sauna, like I go to a place regularly, it costs $60. And I go for 40 minutes and it's not as good as this. There are ways that this is viable. But until you've delivered the project, people can't see its viability. Now we can

[00:54:51] Anastasia: This is like proof of concept.

[00:54:53] Mike Hewson: It's a proof of concept to go look, you don't need to have a sort of vacuous populist art exhibition in a museum that sells tickets, but not very good art in order to keep a museum open. There are actually other funding avenues that also maybe may not require ticketing. you can do the aspects that are rented or, yeah. So I think it's something that I am learning about and certainly not across. And it is the next frontier it's not sustainable what... this project put so much pressure on so many people and my team and I feel very responsible to never go through that again in that way.

[00:55:30] I mean, We all like kind of enjoyed just how intense and special... but you know, burnout is not a sustainable business model and it's not good for health and it's not good for generating something that has a lasting, generates lasting joy and presence. But sometimes you have to go there before you can do the, the other version of it.

[00:55:53] And a big part of it will be figuring out other financial mechanisms to help make the project happen. And that's interesting to me now because now I see that it's responsible to do that because then you can have a certain level of independence from who's funding a thing and whatever their ideology is. You don't have to sign up for it because you've taken a bit of your power back in finding innovative ways to make it happen.

[00:56:21] And I think that's good for artists, 'cause artists are in this place at the moment where often they are being cut out for whatever their views are. And we have to reform ways that we can... yeah.

[00:56:33] Also, I just think it's responsible. I think it's interesting to try and find other ways to keep going that you haven't thought of and...

[00:56:40] Anastasia: Find diverse sourcs of income.

[00:56:41] Mike Hewson: Yeah.

[00:56:43] Yeah. I mean, For me, something like I had an engineering job. That gave me independence for so long.

[00:56:47] Now I'm at a scale where I can't, I can't earn enough wages to keep the operation going so that's not viable anymore. But we are doing structural steel for the building industry. Like I'm just, whatever way I can get money at the moment.

[00:57:03] Anastasia: So in your studio, you're actually like providing materials for buildings?

[00:57:07] Mike Hewson: Yeah. We're not making artworks. I'm just doing structural steel and architectural doors and windows, just to keep the lights on or keep some cash flow coming.

[00:57:14] Anastasia: Right.

[00:57:15] Mike Hewson: Yeah. It's desperate times, but you gotta do what, whatever you can. But in doing that, you learn a lot about stuff too. You can make connections in industry. You learn about how people make things and realize how much you don't know. How to simplify the logistics of building things.

[00:57:32] So yeah, I think one of the reasons I think I was able to deliver this project... I mean, it's a, it's a monstrous thing to hold in your head and all of the uncertainty of all the people who've never done this before, never seen it before.

[00:57:45] I worked on a marine construction project that I got called in 'cause I was broke and needed some cash to do a dredging project in Port Kembla, just down near Wollongong. And I did six months working for this big company and learned so much from how this family owned business operated, how they treated people. But also just the physical scale of moving like a million cubic meters from one side of the harbor to the other.

[00:58:10] Just seeing the physical delivery of such a big scale project and being a significant part of that and then being invited to do something like this.

[00:58:22] A younger version of me couldn't have done it, but I think being outside of the arts, you can learn a lot about your capacity and what's possible and. I think we get beaten down a lot by like what we can and can't do, or people tell us we can and can't do.

[00:58:36] And for me that thing of needing money and working outside of the arts was hugely generative to very specifically allowing me to deliver this project, including some of the people who worked on that did help me here. So. Yeah.

[00:58:50] Anastasia: Yeah

[00:58:52] Anastasia: A quick intermission to thank everyone who has filled out our listener survey so far. Your feedback has been really helpful, and if you haven't done it yet, I would love to hear from you. It only takes a few minutes. It's anonymous, and the link is in the show notes. Or you can also leave me a voice message at speakpipe.com/installation art podcast.

Your input is really valuable and it'll help shape the future of this podcast. Now let's get back to the conversation.

[00:59:33] I wanted to ask you about that Sydney contemporary Geopets thing

[00:59:38] Mike Hewson: Oh, the Geo pets, yes.

[00:59:40] Anastasia: I thought it was a very interesting kind of intervention. Very unusual at the art fair. Was it a marketing stunt or was it real? Like the fact that it sold out at the last day, was that a art world urban legend or?

[00:59:56] Mike Hewson: No, it sold out. Yeah.

[00:59:57] Anastasia: Really?

[00:59:57] Mike Hewson: Yeah, yeah.

[00:59:59] Anastasia: That is very cool!

[01:00:00] Mike Hewson: Cool! Look, I think there was a point during the fair where we were all like.

[01:00:05] But I... it was the only interesting project I had in me at that time. And Michael Lett who who I worked with had seen my Crocs project that I'd done a number of years earlier where I covered these like chainsaw things and I sold them. And the price went up during the art fair.

[01:00:23] Anastasia: Every day it went up by $100.

[01:00:25] Mike Hewson: Yeah. But they were sort of affordable projects cause art is, is expensive because artists spend a lot of time on it. But also at those art fairs, like you can't buy an artwork for under five grand and you know, who has five... you know, a lot of people don't have five grand. So I was like... and also I hoped one day that I would be working at a scale where people are like, oh, I got this thing back then when it was 650 bucks. But also just the fun of like people carrying these things through the fair. Just to like kind of, muck with things a little bit So yeah, there was a performative

[01:00:57] Anastasia: For the listeners, They were basically like brick pets.

[01:01:01] Mike Hewson: Yeah, brick pets. Yeah. Yeah. Like little, they were actually these precious bits of vitrified brick from a coke works, which is where they make coke and cole. So it's like a hundred year old brick that had been demolished by a developer and he's since crushed all the materials. But I rescued a bunch of these bricks, which I thought they just looked like contemporary ceramic, conceptual, you know? And then yeah, just put the gemstones glued to them.

[01:01:25] But I think that thing of people being able to grab an artwork with their hands, kinda like a grocery in an art fair is, is interesting too. And, and it, you know, it was priced by the kg so you take it along and weigh it. And again, it was still a serious artwork that I resolved it as a serious sculpture. But yeah, I thought it was interesting to uh... yeah, I mean, people are bored. They're sick of the same thing. And like I wasn't, no one needed to see any more paintings from me, that's for sure.

[01:01:57] I think sometimes in those environments you need relief from you know, something that just feels very... samey.

[01:02:05] Anastasia: Yeah. No, it was very refreshing and very different.

[01:02:08] Mike Hewson: Yeah. Yeah. A lot of people would come by and be like, oh wow, this is, I needed this! Yeah. And we needed the money so.

[01:02:20] It's a great way to connect with people who are interested in your work, but how do you buy a whole playground or a something? And me wanting to wait long enough that I could make something that was interesting enough and serious enough that you know, people are like happy with what they've got. Their little brick friend.

[01:02:37] Anastasia: Yeah. I'm sure they're only going up in

[01:02:39] Mike Hewson: value now.

[01:02:40] Yeah. Well that's what I think also, like, you you want people to feel like there's an upside. And I hope that!

[01:02:47] Anyone who got stuff ages ago: i'm working on it. It'll be, maybe it'll be more valuable one day! Or at least, or at least it's price at a point where you're like, oh, well it's not that much.

[01:02:55] Yeah.

[01:02:58] Anastasia: Can you think of a particularly rewarding or transformative moment or experience you've had in your life as an artist?

[01:03:07] Mike Hewson: Oh well, there was a slightly angsty period I had when I first was shifting from engineering to arts that I was in Christchurch with my brother and we would be in our studio and sort wandering around in our pajamas and midweek bare feet, listening to folk music and probably drinking whiskey or something. I don't know, just, it's funny to look back on that kind of very curious and a lot of existential angst driving this pursuit of creativity. And it's lovely to feel like you've come outta that a bit. But. The, yeah, the earthquake I think was a big moment for me where I was in my mid twenties and i'd put a lot of my energy and time and money into starting to become an artist.

[01:03:54] And then when the earthquake hit and I was outside the building. My brother going across this realization I may never ever go back and I'd lost, potentially had lost everything I'd ever owned. So you're sort of left with, I was actually in bare feet at the time, in the middle of this city, half broken down.

[01:04:10] And I remember looking up at the building and going, is it worth keeping going with this thing? Should I just cut my, and then I just had a feeling at the time, I was like no, I think that it's worth continuing. So I think that was a moment where I was like, I think I'll keep pursuing this 'cause I think I can offer something. Or at least I might find fulfillment in it.

[01:04:30] Anastasia: Mm.

[01:04:31] Mike Hewson: Yeah. I think going to New York was a, not going to art school until my thirties was good because over there you're sort of around the power brokers of the art world. So it demystifies or gets rid of any allure of what you're missing out on or some people are more happy that you're somehow missing out over here. But it was great to feel like you can be wherever and know all the buttons you're pressing.

[01:04:56] ' Cause I think when you do understand the broader art language and what's happening around the world, you can be a bit more careful about you know, When you're treading on a toe or when you're signaling the wrong thing that you don't intend to. Because I think, you can not realize how bad your work is the context that it's sitting in. So I think that was a very helpful thing, but it was also helpful to leave.

[01:05:16] Anastasia: you didn't wanna stay in New York?

[01:05:17] Mike Hewson: I wasn't any use there. I was just hanging around hoping something would happen. And there's a lot of people hanging around there waiting for a break. Rirkrit Tiravanija um, who I worked for for a while, he said, Mike no one's looking for a New Zealand artist here. You should go, back to where you came from and do something interesting. And It was actually good advice because I have started making much more interesting work here.

[01:05:40] And I'm a lot happier as a result, I think.

[01:05:43] Anastasia: So you're based in Sydney now? Mm-hmm. And, do you still consider yourself a New Zealand artist or are you more like a hybrid australian New Zealander?

[01:05:53] Mike Hewson: I might apply for a passport here. But No, I'm in a New Zealand artist. I think that's

[01:05:58] Anastasia: Because Australians will claim you, i'm sure now.

[01:06:01] Mike Hewson: That's fine. I'm very lucky and happy to be here. for me, it's a very interesting place to be, because there is a lot of public space being built. And while it is a very litigious environment and risk cautious, surprisingly, there is a huge appetite for pushing boundaries. And I think a project like this is a kind of world first project. There has been a number of major institutional playground exhibitions over the last 50, 60 years. And none of them have actually worked in the sense that they often get shut down because someone gets hurt. And we are not out of the woods yet, but we have been very careful about thinking about exactly how it's used. And you know, you're not infallible and you, show negligence, it can change how the whole show's perceived.

[01:06:52] Anastasia: Is there anything you've had to come back and modify because of that?

[01:06:56] Mike Hewson: Not really. I mean, there's always things that you try and anticipate and you're like, I think I could do that better. Yeah, no, I've learned a lot through all the previous projects.

[01:07:04] Anastasia: Mm-hmm.

[01:07:05] Mike Hewson: Just keeping an eye on things. But yeah, it's still something you, you think about. Because I really care about how it is for people. But at the same time, you sort have this dual responsibility to push the boundaries but also. To be really responsible.

[01:07:20] And I'm the one who has to wake up in the middle of the night and just: did I, I do the whatsit?

[01:07:26] And you have to grapple withwith it because. Yeah, that's the, that, that will be the legacy of the work. There's plenty of like, arrogant male sculptors over the years that have done big things and eventually have hurt someone.

[01:07:38] And it's yeah, there is a risk in doing physical things in public space around people, especially when they have a, an element of perceived precarity.

[01:07:47] Anastasia: Mm-hmm.

[01:07:49] Mike Hewson: So it's just a constant dialogue. It's a constant innovation and review that I have to think about. And and I'm responsible for.

[01:07:59] Anastasia: There's a question regarding, 'cause we've talked a lot about public art on this podcast, and there's a question I'm always curious about when it comes to permanent installations in the public space. Do you think there should be something in the contract about the artist's ability to review it, let's say in five years time, 10 years time, and see if it's still relevant to that space or if it's still, I don't know, if it's still fulfilling its purpose or maybe not hurting your reputation as an artist even. And like maybe be able to say, no, it's done now I have to take it down.

[01:08:44] Mike Hewson: Interesting.

[01:08:45] Yeah, I think that would be an interesting thing to introduce. I mean, for me, all the past projects that I've done, there has been a kind of an unspoken... people want the project to succeed and be relevant. Often there's not many people that want to go... especially if it's starting to hit a bad note for it'd be like, no, this is the artwork.

[01:09:05] It must be maintained. But I think that topic's always up for debate. Sometimes you do need to update things or change things. It's often more towards the owner or the operator's license where they can change it, should there be safety concerns or whatever concerns.

[01:09:25] Anastasia: do you actually have something about that in your contract like I've recently spoken to a public artist who said that in his contracts, if they change something about his work, they have to take his name off it. 'cause it doesn't represent him anymore?

[01:09:39] Mike Hewson: Yeah. It's something to that effect That you can't go against the moral rights of the artwork itself. That is often owned by the artist but licensed to the owner. And then generally the way that I negotiate the clauses that surround reasonable requests and me reasonably cooperating with their requests. Because I think that's just like anything in life, it's a negotiation. It's a shared responsibility. And two parties have to meet it at a good outcome. So it is an important thing. I've said no to plenty of projects that didn't have good rules in that regard. I've said no to a lot of projects Because

[01:10:16] Anastasia: Is that because of the language around it?

[01:10:17] Mike Hewson: Because the Yes, because the artwork didn't have enough rights to defend itself from, you know, say a council worker decides he wants to change the color of the thing or take certain parts out. You know, There was a big debate over the Wollongong project. 'Cause council I'm like, for whatever reason, just took real issue with the palm tree up the pole, and wanted to remove that part of it. And I was like yeah, you can get rid of the artwork, but just, you have to take the whole thing out and... look forward to seeing the bill that someone gives you to remove it.

[01:10:48] And also you're removing a big public asset and destroying it. So Yeah, that is a big part. It's more, I never wanna hold it over someone that they have to keep it. But They don't get to modify it.

[01:10:58] And I think that's the thing is it's like the show here, I only want the show to be here for as long as the public or the institution want it here. But at the same time, you have to sort of respect its kind of what it is while it's there.

[01:11:12] Yeah. So I think that, that is a big part of it and I think it's very important for artists to fight for it. And a lot of organizations will gaslight or force you into the environment where you, you sign something you're not quite comfortable with. Because you need the money or you're not quite sure what the right way to do things is. But the reason it's very important to fight for is: these people pass through institutions, they come and go. And you might be mid project and you get someone else onboard who just decides that they don't like the artwork. They don't like the shape and they wanna modify it. And then you end up in this awful experience and you can end up making a giant bad artwork. And there's nothing worse than a giant bad thing that stays there forever. It's just awful.

[01:11:57] And so I think it's important for an artist to have a bit of power and a bit of skin in the game where they're backed up by a clause that is not about the whim of, someone in a bureaucratic organization. 'Cause they might be passing through for whatever reason, they've got a marriage breakup or they're, you know, there's just so many personal things that come into these bureaucratic interactions and um, it's really helpful to have a good, strong legal grounding to at least defend the essence of the artwork.

[01:12:24]

[01:12:24] Anastasia: Are you fluent in that language or do you employ a lawyer to look over all your contracts?

[01:12:29]

[01:12:29] Mike Hewson: Yeah. I always get, yeah, lawyers that check through things. I've just learned a lot along the way. Very much learn as you go. And it's been very hard but you know, artists have to get savvy with all of these things.

[01:12:40] I mean, Insurance has been one of the biggest challenges.

[01:12:42] Anastasia: Really?

[01:12:43] Mike Hewson: Yeah. Huge. I'd be one of, if not the only artist with insurance that covers play specifically from a building and design perspective. I know some have insurance through institutions. But they're not far reaching coverage and even play industry companies struggle to get coverage.

[01:13:05] Anastasia: Wow.

[01:13:06] Mike Hewson: And they're just as builders or as designers, not both. So these types of things are the make or break. I think I'm at an okay point now, but you're only one year away from not being able to continue. You know

[01:13:21] Anastasia: Mm.

[01:13:21] Mike Hewson: if you can't get coverage, you can't operate. No one will work with you. And. It's not trivial to get coverage. We're continually gonna be at the whim of... you know, it's not often personal either. It's just the underwriters decide they're gonna not cover a certain risk profile whatever has happened in the building industry unrelated to play, but they're like, we need to like shore up our ledger, so we're just gonna cut the stuff.

[01:13:45] They're not worried about whether the state's latest underground park project is gonna go ahead or not, so yeah.

[01:13:52] Anastasia: This kind of stuff must be a bit easier in New Zealand though?

[01:13:56] Mike Hewson: No, not necessarily. Like things are pretty, I mean, there's certainly less money over there and people... yeah, you'd be surprised.

[01:14:04] Anastasia: Well, Like you can't sue someone for...

[01:14:07] Mike Hewson: you can't sue someone. Yes, that's true. It doesn't mean that the insurance... yeah. It's a very interesting topic, at least in the Commonwealth legal framework. As far as I understand, it, liability cases are seen by a judge rather than a jury and it's often capped.

[01:14:22] I, I believe it is capped, at least in the Commonwealth framework. And the judge in this framework can weigh up the uh, greater good. And it can be viewed in the context of what the loss to society would be if something like this isn't allowed to go ahead, or the precedent that it will set, what it will mean.

[01:14:39] So say for example, an interesting playground that meets the broad developmental needs of the public and increases resilience across a country, sets new precedents for better public space and better play opportunities. If you were to stop this, for this particular case, for this particular person, what is the loss to society?

[01:14:59] I believe that, at least in this legal framework, that's part of the, often it doesn't get to that, insurance companies just do a payout and whatever, but it is part of the framework. And in the US I believe it is liability cases and, you know, there's benefits to it to stop big corporations from taking advantage of their um, opportunities and power, can have unlimited damages to someone.

[01:15:26] So for someone like me, that's too scary. Especially if a bully comes over and just goes, for whatever reason, goes, I'm gonna ruin you. They really can. And um, is it worth it? I don't know. Not for me at this point. But I guess there'll be a time when I've seen enough precedences of the success and intention and a lot of it's just to do with being non negligent.

[01:15:49] Like the biggest thing that I try and do is I want to have thought through everything and made conscious decisions about why I did things. What are the calculations for how this is attached? What's the structural principle? What's its maintenance schedule? How will people interact with it? And basically demonstrating that it has been thought through and it meets these codes or these standards or a hybrid, like the project I'm doing at the Fish Markets, it's not a playground in the sense of it doesn't fully comply to the playground code. It's also not coded playground, there's no swing, no slide. It's just chunks of metal and palm trees. But it is immersive.

[01:16:23] But for that one I was like, this is a sculpture park that is gonna draw on the park or code, the playground code. General principles of public space design that landscape architects use. So it's bringing together all these different codes and design principles that are responsible public space, but in particular for this to be non negligent in the way that we deliver it.

[01:16:44] And that's really interesting to me to do something that sits outside of say playground proper.

[01:16:50] But it's also something that I'm risking doing because most people just go well, you take the more conservative of the risk assessing tools, which would be the playground standards.

[01:17:01] So everything has to have at least 1.5 meters of rubber or mulch around it. And then often, when artworks sculptures, art, could be climbed, you just see this kind of weird mulch patch around the edge. And it's it just doesn't feel like that's how the artwork was intended, but it's been beaten by this playground standard.

[01:17:21] Anastasia: So even like a regular old public art sculpture, if it has the possibility to be climbed on, it has to have that perimeter around it?

[01:17:32] Mike Hewson: Well, "has to" is the question because it's to do with who's owning and operating it. And often councils that either inexperienced or they have a risk manager that has a certain way of viewing public space, it's up to them to decide what their risk exposure is. And they have to be able to basically stand up and say what their approach is. And a lot of people are too busy, they wanna keep their job, they're not interested in like, breaking any records. So they go well, we have this this is an easy one. Just make it pass the playground code, then we're covered.

[01:18:01] Anastasia: Yeah.

[01:18:01] Mike Hewson: They're not worried about like, you know, I often bring up the example about gym equipment in Australia. Is kind of a little bit like a playground. But I don't know if you know how much the rubber that they put down in playgrounds costs, it's like prohibitively expensive. I wouldn't for A small gym area it might be 80 or a 100k of rubber. And it's costs a lot to maintain And so councils are like, we can't afford the rubber, so they don't put the gym equipment in. So then you think about what the loss is to society to not have these little bits of chin up bar and whatever.

[01:18:34] Because they can't assess the risk of... they can't definitely define, it's absolutely not a playground. So they just go, oh, we'll just do the easy thing, call it a playground, make it all spaced out. It doesn't need to be spaced out. But then everything has to be at least a meter and a half from it. Then suddenly the rubber area is increased. You are using up more grassland from the park and you're kinda like, why is it this shape?

[01:18:54] And it's because you know, we are not intelligent or... we are not sophisticated... or we don't have enough precedences about responsible management of public space in relationship to defining which risk category it sits in. Or is it a hybrid one that is also acceptable?

[01:19:12] And art doesn't fit in that. We don't have that yet. Because every council has a different way of viewing it. Like, you know, in this project, the fish markets is commissioned by Infrastructure New South Wales and it's managed by Place, which Place New South Wales, like another state government level organization. They've been great! 'Cause they understand what's at stake, but they understand what it can help deliver for the public.

[01:19:36] And yeah it takes organizations to, to go through this new territory, which is good for art because often how an artwork lands on the ground is maybe the most important part.

[01:19:49] You know, Like the plinth or whatever it is. 'Cause often they land horribly.

[01:19:54] Anastasia: Right. I've never even thought about it, but that is a very interesting point!

[01:19:58] Mike Hewson: Yeah. It's one of the, for me, it's one of the biggest things about how it sits, what's it sitting on or around. And does that make sense in the context of the artwork?

[01:20:08] So The Rocks on Wheels was a very intentional kind of silly, like Home Depot or Bunnings plinths, art handler plinths. But I think that this risk assessing rubber or mulch around the thing is a, a horrible conundrum. Not to mention the cost.

[01:20:27] But it is an important thing to... I don't also don't think artists should be able to build Whatever they want without thinking about how children might use it or how people might climb it.

[01:20:36] There is a need for designers and artists to be responsible for how it might be used. But it's also, I don't think it's right that there'd be these kind of, I think it's lazy box ticking definitions, code compliance. I don't think it's a good use of public resources. 'Cause ultimately it's the public that's paying for these bit of rubber around the edge of something that doesn't need it. Like the public complain about their money being misspent. You're not often protecting a child by putting this... you know, there's other ways to do it. There's certainly plenty of things in nature. Rocks or trees or, climbing a tree, like there's no rubber around a tree. So there's certainly precedents within nature or the general built environment where we can perfectly navigate moving our bodies in a way when there is hard ground underneath.

[01:21:25] It's just thinking it through and it's, yeah, it's something that's important for how an artwork is read.

[01:21:30] Anastasia: Mm,

[01:21:31] Great points.

[01:21:33] what's a hard truth you have had to learn as an artist?

[01:21:38] Mike Hewson: Hard truth. Oh many. I mean, It felt like a, a hard truth to stomach with my early on projects where the public felt really alienated by these pretentious projects that they didn't understand. It was more just I was being a bit young and insecure that it's okay to explain a project rather than just going: it's just the work!

[01:22:02] You know, To give ways into an artwork, to give people something so that they can unpack it for themselves. Which I guess as a younger artist I was like, oh, that's giving too much away. Or it should be good enough that you don't have to explain it. So I've learned that it's very helpful to give people ways in, because everyone has a different way into understanding an artwork.

[01:22:23] I guess another hard truth I'm learning or contending with the, just the financial viability of arts, particularly at the scale where you can't just expect for things to happen on their own and you have to pretty much brute force it, you have to take responsibility to find viable financial ways to pull these things off because however something might've been funded once might not be there again. And it might not be responsible for it to be there again 'cause there's other avenues that you haven't explored. So I think that's yeah it's a hard thing that I'm gonna learn this year, more of. Yeah.

[01:22:59] Anastasia: Yeah, that's a big one. What advice would you give an artist who's just starting out in installation or in public art?

[01:23:10] Mike Hewson: I think specifically it is challenging in the installation setting because you're contending with so many different things: with scale, with weight, with yeah, the interaction aspect, funding, storage. Using so many different crafts and skills and expertise. It really can be a long road and a lonely one, that it does expand and, and get better. But it is a long road and I think I didn't need to be successful quickly. Or like, it was a rewarding enough journey, the little steps.

[01:23:45] And I mean, It's surprising that I'm doing a project of this scale at this point. I thought this wouldn't come until you know, much later on in my career, if at all.

[01:23:54] Yeah, I think that's the, thing of it doesn't need to happen immediately and often things that happen quickly great anyway, or not lasting.

[01:24:04] I've also been determined just trusting my instincts about what... You know, say for example, with the playground park, just trusting my instincts when people said: I don't think that's serious, you shouldn't be going down that road. Just to go, you know what, I think this is right for me to pursue, even if it's not... just that kind of go it alone a little bit. If you suspect it's in you.

[01:24:26] Anastasia: So has it gotten better? Like, Do you feel like you belong in the art world now?

[01:24:31] Mike Hewson: Yeah. I mean, I think probably it was, silly for me to think I didn't because oh, you know, art's not that snobby. I thought it was snobby until you sort of get a little bit further in, you realize everyone's just trying to get by and you know. It is great to have this high level of scrutiny and questioning and exploring things and not liking things and calling people out with it. So, Yeah I, I am but also like, who cares? Because my own silly insecurities are not that interesting anyway. um, yeah.

[01:25:04] It is interesting though how things can shift when there's... again, people finding a way in. So for example, here, it wasn't until Justin had physically been to the South Bank Rocks on Wheels project. He'd seen photos of it. But I think the physical experience of being there and the energy of the people there really surprised him. And sometimes people just won't have a way into your things until a certain point and then it became art.

[01:25:34] Even city of Melbourne, they didn't even wanna call it an artwork, you know, like they just were like, this is a playground. They didn't even really wanna acknowledge my involvement, weirdly. And then now it's a playground and an artwork. So I think sometimes you just have to be patient with people.

[01:25:51] Cause you know, And it doesn't need to be understood fully. You don't even understand it fully yourself I think. For me, I just have been following my nose and I feel like I only know like a little bit around the corner, but not much further. But that's been enough for me just to keep going with what you have. It's often not much more than that though.

[01:26:08] Anastasia: Has your production kept up with your ideas?

[01:26:11] Mike Hewson: Ooh, it depends who you ask. Um, yeah. I'm a time optimist.

[01:26:17] Anastasia: Right. Okay. I see.

[01:26:19] Mike Hewson: And a resource optimist, but look, I'm not, wondering what my next great big thing is. Like I, this has been enough for me. I have to keep going 'cause I have to find ways to make things viable. So yeah. I think this was a lot, this show and

[01:26:35] Anastasia: It's mammoth.

[01:26:36] Mike Hewson: Yeah it's mammoth. And I have no interest in going bigger or something.

[01:26:40] Anastasia: So you're not gonna try to top this?

[01:26:43] Mike Hewson: If I do, it's not because it's like a burning desire to. I think it might be the responsible thing to do at some point, but it certainly won't be delivered in a manner that is any form similar. It doesn't interest me at all to operate like that again.

[01:26:57] Anastasia: Operate like what? How do you mean? mean

[01:26:59] Mike Hewson: Well, this is like a career defining project, but it's also like a kind of institutional groundbreaking project in terms of what it does. And when you do those kinds of projects, it's a kind of an underdog project where you have to really go above and beyond and go beyond the brief and over deliver. But that's not always, that's not the best thing to do all the time. It's a one off.

[01:27:24] Now that it's been demonstrated, you could get enough resource because it does have so much appeal that you can make a business model around different funding mechanisms to make this sustainable, to find the money to do it because it'll be paid back in other ways. Um, That, that's why.

[01:27:41] I don't feel like I need to prove anything now. I've done enough proving. Now it's like, let's make it sustainable based on the appeal of what has been done. So I've done that stretch work. I've made the brochure.

[01:27:55] Anastasia: So what's coming up for you now?

[01:27:57] Mike Hewson: now I have to work on sales.

[01:27:59] Yeah, sales. Sell, sell, sell. That's the, yeah. But I think, you know, as soon as you owe people money, a lot of small people money, you know, you, you have every responsibility to like do everything within your power to make sure they get what's theirs, you know? And so yeah it's a huge um, challenge.

[01:28:16] But also it's interesting for that reason because also when you are paying people, that gives them independence in a way if they're enjoying their work. So it's kind of, really in the mix at the moment.

[01:28:28] Anastasia: So you mentioned the Fish Market. You're working on that?

[01:28:32] Mike Hewson: Yeah. The big public project out the front that opens on Monday.

[01:28:35] Anastasia: Oh, already?

[01:28:36] Mike Hewson: Yeah.

[01:28:36] Anastasia: Wow.

[01:28:37] Mike Hewson: Yeah, we snuck that in this year as well.

[01:28:38] this

[01:28:38] Anastasia: So is that, that's a permanent installation as well?

[01:28:41] Mike Hewson: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, huge.

[01:28:42] Anastasia: Cool. Okay. People can go and check it out.

[01:28:44] Mike Hewson: Yeah.

[01:28:44] Anastasia: Excellent. Anything else in the works?

[01:28:47] Mike Hewson: Yeah. Every avenue I'd love to do like a playground catalog. To make editions of smaller bits of public art playground that can be put within a tender package. So like a landscape architect can specify a Mike Hewson unit.

[01:29:03] It just turns out be a very big unit. That is... it's very custom 'cause I'd make it, but it's also repeatable in a way that works. It's just a way of kind of bypassing the difficult commissioning process and using the existing mechanisms of funding or of delivering public projects.

[01:29:21] Anastasia: So you would make like five options of mini playground that....

[01:29:26] Mike Hewson: Yeah, something like that. Yeah.

[01:29:28] Anastasia: Commissioners can like insert into their park or something.

[01:29:31] Mike Hewson: Mm. And that way, when they put it in the contract documents of "this or similar" – 'cause they always have to say or similar so it doesn't end up becoming a monopoly but no builder's gonna do an "or similar" so of course they...

[01:29:44] Anastasia: yeah. Yeah

[01:29:46] Mike Hewson: Good luck! Good luck to them. If they want to do it, well you go for it.

[01:29:51] Anastasia: Yeah. Okay. Where can people find out more about you, find your work, maybe buy something?

[01:29:59] Mike Hewson: Yeah, well we're working on the buy something. A bit slow off the mark with that one. But I have a, website that has past work on, it It doesn't actually have documentation yet of this show 'cause we've been so swamped trying to recover from it.

[01:30:14] But um, we'll have a... there'll be even furniture in the merch website. merch website.

[01:30:18] Anastasia: Oh, really? Yeah.

[01:30:20] Mike Hewson: So there'll be the whole realm of whatever we can make. But

[01:30:24] Anastasia: so this is all like made in your studio kind of stuff?

[01:30:26] Mike Hewson: Yeah

[01:30:27] There'll be some stuff that's made overseas straight to buyer. But most of the stuff that's Art art.

[01:30:33] Anastasia: Sweet.

[01:30:36] Mike Hewson: Yeah, from the studio. Again, it's just like people, if you can provide something at a price point that they're already going at and something that they need in their house that's also interesting as a sculpture. Yeah, it's cool.

[01:30:49] Like the furniture in here. Like all of the stuff's for sale. Anyone wants to buy anything, just come in here and ask me how much, you know.

[01:30:54] Anastasia: I might be interested in this sound booth.

[01:30:57] Yeah.

[01:30:57] Mike Hewson: know.

[01:30:57] It's so,

[01:30:57] it's, yeah. There's so many um, bits that we're yet to go Now Where's that? Where's that gonna go? Yeah.

[01:31:03] Anastasia: Surely someone will get the sauna, come

[01:31:06] Mike Hewson: on!

[01:31:06] Yeah. Well, I think they all should. I mean, They're all very complicated and they're all special. Very special, very personal.

[01:31:13] Anastasia: Yeah. I mean, there's pews as seats in the sauna.

[01:31:19] Mike Hewson: Yeah. Yeah. We made those from scratch, custom.

[01:31:22] Yeah.

[01:31:22] Even made the stained glass. In the side to match the graffiti on the windows. I don't know if you noticed that the,

[01:31:29] Anastasia: No I didn't.

[01:31:30] didn't

[01:31:30] Mike Hewson: some, there's the kind of pink, orange and green graffiti on the windows that is matched in the stained glass in the pews. We really went all out, so.

[01:31:39] It will live a long life like, that thing's built to last, even though it looks a bit dingy on the outside.

[01:31:45] Anastasia: Very cool. Okay, well I guess that's it. Is there anything that I didn't ask that you wanted to mention?

[01:31:53] Mike Hewson: Not that I can think of, but yeah, thanks very much for having me.

[01:31:57] Anastasia: Thank you for taking the time!

[01:31:58] Mike Hewson: Yeah, it's a, it's a wonderful thing to be a part of.

[01:31:59] Anastasia: Thanks Mike!

[01:32:09] Anastasia: That was Mike Hewson, based in Sydney coming to you from inside his installation at Art Gallery of New South Wales. If you're in Sydney, you really should come experience this work in person. It will be open in the Tank, the lowest level of the new building of the Art Gallery until August, 2026.

[01:32:32] Sydneysiders can also check out his permanent installations at Pioneer's Memorial Park in Leichhardt, at Simpson Park in St. Peter's, and just opened, his new installation at the Fish Market. You can also find his public playgrounds at Crown Street Mall in Wollongong or on South Bank Boulevard in Melbourne.

[01:32:55] To find out more about his work or maybe buy some merch, go to Mike's website mikehewson.co.nz and follow him on Instagram @MikeHewson. Links to those as well as everyone mentioned in this episode are in the show notes and on our website, installationartpodcast.com.

[01:33:17] If you're still here and listening, that means you're the GOAT and that maybe you can take a moment right now to leave us a five star rating.

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[01:33:45] Thank you so much for listening and for supporting these in-depth conversations about installation art. Until next time.