Hey, I got a question from YouTube, or not from YouTube, but from somebody

on YouTube who left a question in the comments that I want to address here.

It's about, uh, flight fight shutdown, TRE exercises and what went wrong.

Hey, I'm Justin Sunseri.

I'm a therapist and coach who wants to help you live with more

calm confidence and connection without psychobabble or woo woo.

This is of course, uh, not therapy.

Nor is it intended to replace therapy.

The question I got here, I'll call this person Z. Z says, I used to

live in fight or flight response with severe anxiety and DPDR.

So I did excessive TRE exercises, and now I feel numb.

No more anxiety (flight or fight).

And my head feels weird.

Can you tell me what I can do to get back to fight or flight where I

can do relaxation techniques again?

Because now I can't do them anymore.

Also, can you shed light on what happened to me?

I'm confused.

So, um, no, I can't tell you what exactly what happened to you and no, I can't

tell you exactly what you should do, but I can, I can approach this generally.

That's what, that's my attempt here.

I have some familiarity- familiarity.

I always have a problem with that word- familiarity with TRE exercises.

Um, I'm not a proponent of them.

I don't know a ton, so take that for what it's worth.

But the way that I approach mental health and trauma recovery,

I, I think is, is different.

Rather than- this, this could be coming from a very, um, uneducated viewpoint-

Rather than looking at our trauma as something that we need to resolve through

some sort of prescribed movement, I look at it as we need to, well first

build lots and lots of safety, and then, um, gently feel into our stuck

defense a little bit at a time and relieve it a little bit at a time.

And then, if our body wants to move, then we move.

I've been doing, uh, I do live skills practices in the Untucking Academy.

And, um, one of the ways I ended, or actually also in my, I do a, I'm

doing a, just finished up a, a cohort called, uh, Stillness to Sympathetic.

It helps someone come outta shutdown and emerge into sympathetic activation,

actually, which I think has a lot to do with what's being asked here.

But in this, this cohort, in our mindful practices, I didn't

tell people how to move around.

I didn't give them any prescribed movements.

Instead, we felt- we anchored into safety- and then mindfully felt into, uh, stuck

defensive activation into immobilization.

And then- to wrap up the meditation and the brief pendulation exercise- and

then to wrap, you know, we asked our body what would feel good right now.

And then we moved in a way that would feel good.

So it was a small cohort.

One of the people, she stretched out a couple times.

I think the, um, the final time we met, she did this like swimming motion.

The other person grabbed a pillow and squeezed it.

Um, these are not movements I can predict.

I don't know what the right movement is for anybody.

And again, this may be a very uneducated place to speak from and I apologize if it

is, but the TRE exercises- I believe are more prescribed, like do this movement.

And if I'm wrong about that, I apologize.

I've looked into it, but not heavily.

So it's fundamentally at odds with, if I'm understanding it correctly,

it's at odds with the way that I do things within the Unstucking Academy.

So let's get back to Z's question.

Z had fight or flight.

Plus D-P-D-R-D-P-D-R-I would guess comes from a severe or

significant enough shutdown state.

This is where- shutdown brings dissociation.

So if we are in a depersonalized, derealized sort of state, that must

have some degree of dissociation to it, and that comes from shutdown or freeze.

So if somebody has fight or flight and shutdown down, they could

alternate between- betwixt the two.

Uh, they could, but that would probably more look like shutdown down to fight,

shut down to fight, shut down to fight, uh, or yeah, it could maybe,

it could be like shut down to a brief flight and then to more anxiety.

And that's where someone gets stuck and so they go back down and, you

know, shut down to fight, to flight, to fight to shut down, to fight

to flight, to fight to shut down.

Maybe it could be something like that.

Or it could be where they have both of these things active at the same

time, so they have shut down and fight flight, maybe more of a flight

active, and that would result in a tense kind of freeze state that is

just sort of lingering chronically.

Maybe this underlying sense of panic, um, that just kind of is always there.

Or maybe an underlying sense of anxiety.

If it's more freeze, I would lean more toward panic, but an underlying intense

anxiety definitely could be there.

Um, just to understand what could be going on in general.

There could be maybe someone with, with, uh, fight or flight and, uh, DPDR has

lingering freeze or they have shut down to sympathetic shutdown to sympathetic.

So, knowing that is very important and why I don't like the prescribed sort of method

of well just do this movement or do, you know, go jump in a cold pool or whatever,

do this sort of breathing method.

That's why I don't like this stuff, because knowing what state you're in is,

is more helpful than just sort of throwing at, throwing these skills at at somebody.

So someone who's in freeze, or let's say someone who's in

shutdown, let's say they're going from shutdown to sympathetic.

Someone in shutdown is way less likely to do any sort of movements.

They need very small, and maybe TRE has small movements built in that are good.

And I don't, I don't know.

Um, but for the way I work with someone in shutdown, we, instead of trying to

get into fight activation or trying to work our way outta shutdown, we

actually would connect with the shutdown.

We would let it be 'cause it's there anyways.

So let's mindfully connect with it.

And if- once we mindfully connect with it, then self-regulation can

happen naturally as long as the safety state is, uh, strengthened enough.

So that that's shut down.

So that to, I guess that to keep that in mind because someone has shut down

throwing some sort of movement at them is not necessarily helpful unless it's

tailored to what their body wants and probably is a smaller sort of movement.

For someone in flight fight, they have more capacity to do what, you know,

whatever movements they have more range of movement probably, but they're

probably gonna be more on the tense side.

Not like freeze, but their willingness, their playfulness when it comes

to movements is gonna be smaller.

So, yeah, they might be able to roll around or something like

that, but they're probably gonna be thinking, this is stupid.

Why am I doing this?

Or, um, this isn't working for me.

It works for everybody else, but it won't work for me.

And if that's true, they're not gonna benefit from the movement.

I don't think, and I have no idea if TRE builds in how much mindfulness is built

into it or how much safety is expected.

Hey, it's editing Justin from the future.

Um, I was editing and I wanted to input a little thought into here.

So I touched upon shutdown and maybe someone who has sympathetic

flight fight and how they may respond to prescribed exercises.

But someone in freeze- I wanted to touch upon this real quick because

someone in freeze has flight, fight active, but also shut down, so they're

mobile, but that mobility is frozen.

It is immobilized by the, uh, shutdown aspect of what

they're going of the freeze.

So they're mobile, but also immobile asking this person to do some sort of

prescribed movement if they lack the safety to benefit from it- and again, I

don't know TRE so, but if I asked someone in, uh, freeze to do some sort of movement

that- their system may not have the capacity for it because the immobility

aspect of the freeze is too strong.

And so I could totally see this person really struggling with any

sort of movement ba- mindfulness, movement based kind of stuff.

Someone who's in freeze I think could definitely be triggered deeper into

shutdown or even deeper into freeze.

Someone in freeze who is successfully uh, removed the shutdown, the immobility

of their freeze still may not be at a place where they can handle any

mindful movement because their safety state's not where it needs to be.

There's a lot of pieces that come in- that's why I hate to

prescribe stuff- there's a lot of pieces that come into this.

So someone in freeze who, let's say the, they've been able to connect

with the shutdown immobilization, and now the mobilization, the flight

fight is now ready to be released.

That can be extremely, uh, difficult.

That can be a lot, especially if their safety state can't handle it.

Think of it as like your foot is on the brake and the gas at the

same time, but not a little bit.

It's like floored.

So someone who has their foot on the grass and the brake at the same time

and they're flooring it- when you take your foot off the brake, what happens?

You're, you're gonna spin out, right?

You're gonna maybe shoot forward, you know, uh, outta control.

So same thing, it's a metaphor, but same thing when it comes to freeze.

We don't want that person to be spinning out or shooting outta control

when their immobility comes off.

It has to be a little bit at a time with the safety state active, alright?

Editing Justin is going away now.

Bye.

Um, if I were doing something like this, I would really wanna make sure that my

client is anchored into safety first.

And then listen, ideally listen to whatever movement

their body naturally wants.

But if it was a prescribed sort of movement, I, I would really want my client

anchored in safety and then mindfully feel the experience of the movement.

But I'd be more concerned with what's happening, not,

not completing the movement.

Like if, if the goal is to like roll around on the floor and I'm making

stuff up, I don't know what the hell- I don't know what TRE does.

Um.

But if the goal is to like roll around, I don't care if they roll around the

right number of times or in the right way, I'm way more concerned with what's

the experience of rolling around?

So as soon as their brain says something like, this is stupid and this doesn't

work for me, that to me is far more important than completing the movement.

I would want them to pause.

Let's, let's, let's notice what that thought, what the feeling is

that's dri- driving that thought.

What's the emotion driving the thought?

And let's just kind of be with that emotion.

If we can be with it and then balance it out with more safety, then we can

go back to the exercise if needed.

But that, that's how I work.

I am, I'm more concerned with what's the present moment experience of whatever the

thing is, and let's focus on that present moment experience, because that is the

portal to, to actual self-regulation, not just doing things here and there that kind

of feel better, but don't really last.

And again, I have, I don't know about TRE, I'm not saying I'm, I'm not

trying to dis TRE lot of people love this stuff and I'm happy for you.

But just the way I work is, is a lot, is fundamentally, I think, a lot different

than what a lot of the other things are.

And that's okay.

So Z says, my head feels weird.

Uh, I, I'm not gonna comment on that.

What can I do to get back to fight or flight?

The way that I would work is, um, and I'll, I'll give you the annoying answer.

The annoying answer is don't try to get back to fight or flight.

The annoying answer is, let's connect with whatever's

happening in our body right now.

And if the body's ready to get back to fight or flight, it will.

I know that's the annoying answer, but that is the answer.

I'm sorry to say.

It is.

And not just, this is not for Z, this is for all of us.

It's totally okay to not be content with where you're at.

I think it's a good sign.

It's totally okay to want to get into sympathetic activation

if you're in shutdown.

Absolutely.

It's totally okay to wanna have more safety in your life.

Heck, yes.

But you- I don't believe we can truly get to more safety or work our way up the

polyvagal ladder until we have mindfully connected with what we have in the

present moment, and what we have in the present moment might be a lot of collapse.

And so, the way I work is let's mindfully connect with the collapse.

Let's give this permission to be.

And if we can do that then and remain anchored in safety; if we can mindfully

and deeply feel what it's like to be collapsed, then self-regulation

will naturally unfold as long as you're anchored in safety and you're

mindfully tracking and following the natural little sensations and impulses.

And we can use skills like balancing and pendulation.

I teach all that inside the Untucking Academy.

Uh, but that's how I, how I would do these things is- let's not worry

about getting to where we need to be.

Let's just be where we're at.

If we can connect with where we're at, the body will take you to the next place.

It will, I promise.

But it requires a lot of safety and that is the, I think that's the piece

that people know, but skip over.

They just want the thing.

Just tell me the thing.

Tell me the skill, tell me the exercise.

Tell me the movement.

Tell me the breathing technique.

And I just get me out of the state that I'm in.

And I don't blame anybody for feeling that way or thinking that way at all.

But there's no hack.

There's no shortcut here.

I don't believe, actually, I'm pretty darn sure.

There is no shortcut.

So the sooner that you can focus on and prioritize safety, the sooner you can

do even small safety practices every day, I would argue, and what I see

in myself, what I see in my clients, the more success you're gonna have.

The safety state is the foundation for everything.

The stronger safety state you have, you'll be able to do the more difficult

stuff that I'm saying, like mindfully allow and feel shut down, or flight

and fight, whatever it is that's happening in your system currently.

Z and everybody else, uh, listening, if you are interested

in the Unstucking Academy.

You can follow the link in the description.

The academy is, you can probably tell it's different.

We do things differently.

I don't have a prescription for you.

I don't have a hack or a stimulation or, um, I don't know, whatever.

I, I don't have a special thing for you to fix yourself and get better.

That's not the way I think or teach, and that's not the way

we do things in the Academy.

So if you're curious about learning more, you can go to, uh,

stucknotbroken.com/UnstuckingAcademy, stucknotbroken.com/UnstuckingAcademy.

It's a very small community.

It's limited to 150 people.

I want to keep it that way.

I don't want.

Lots of people.

I don't want hundreds and thousands of people in there.

I want it to be a small, contained, um, intimate experience.

I want people to get to know each other.

I love the fact that I have people globally connecting with each other.

And they kind of arranged their own little, you know, one-on-one

meetups just to kind of talk.

We call it the Stuck Buddy Program.

But the, the Academy's different besides the small community and the

live practices and whatnot, I have something that I think is really

unique called the Unstucking Pathway.

I used to have a whole bunch of courses and stuff, and you, you're

probably enrolled in other things that have that, and that's fine.

I'm sure there's great information out there, but rather than a whole

bunch of courses, I got rid of all that and now I have one Pathway.

I call it the Unstucking Pathway, and it takes you from learning the Polyvagal

Theory very simply, very clearly, all the way to unstucking and mastering

skills like pendulation and balancing and normalizing and validating, and

how to recognize obstacles as they come up when you try and use these

skills and what to do about that.

It's this long, it's a pathway.

It's a long pathway, uh, but it has very small, very

concrete, very practical steps.

The lessons in it are each under 10 minutes.

And the steps, you can do these every day, um, in very small bite-size ways.

I, I cr- I designed this to reduce the amount of friction as much as

I possibly could; to reduce your overwhelm as much as I possibly could.

So, if you're interested, it's stucknotbroken.com/UnstuckingAcademy.

Otherwise, thank you for listening to this episode, Z Thank you for the question.

It's a great one.

And uh, bye.