Welcome to the Yappy Hour, powered by Yappily, the podcast for dog lovers who want to better understand and connect with their four-legged friends. I'm your host Nathan Dunlevy, and today we are talking about something incredibly important, how to support complex and sensitive dog. My guest is Jay Gurden, a leading expert in dog behaviour, trust-based training and guardianship. Jay is the founder of Good Guardianship and the author of Building the Bond, living in Harmony with your dog, a bo, a book that focuses on understanding a strengthening the human. Dog relationship. In this episode, we'll explore what makes some dogs more sensitive, the challenges their guardians face, and how we can help them feel safer and more confident. If you've ever felt like your dog struggles more than others, this episode is full of great insight, reassurance, and practical advice. So grab a cup of tea, settle in, and let's get started.

Welcome back to The Yappy Hour, powered by Yappily. I'm your host, Nathan Dunlevy, and I'm so excited to bring you another episode of The Yappy Hour Today. Today's guest is Jay Gurden, as I said, Gurden,

you. I, I get that all

Gurden. And oh my God, I was meant to ask you that before we even started recording, and I didn't, and then I've just spoke to myself, shit. I've not asked her how, if I'm gonna pronounce her surname right. So Jay Gurden with a, with a U. I'm so excited to have Jay with us. She's a colleague of mine as well. We hang out in some similar groups and admins and similar groups in the world of Facebook and yeah, I'm so excited to have a chat to her this evening. Right. Without further ado, Jay, welcome to the Yappy Hour. As I said, I'm so excited to chat with you today. How are you doing?

Hi. I think I'm really, really pleased to be here. Really excited that you asked me to come on.

Yay. We've got, we've got over the microphone thing. 'cause I did have a silver microphone and you sort of, you know, you took the mick a little bit, but I've managed,

the silver one up there.

I know loads of people. It was all the, it was like innuendo, bingo going on when I posted a picture of myself on this big silver microphone. But I've gone for the black version. I don't even know if that's even better or not, but Hey, hey. Great. So glad you're okay. So Jay, for those who might not be familiar with your work, can you tell us a little bit about good guardianship? What led you to focus on complex and sensitive dogs, please?

Yeah, I mean the, the concept behind good guardianship, it's, it's really about helping people and their dogs to just have the best and strongest relationship they possibly can.

Yeah.

those of us who have spent time learning about dogs, we have that fantastic relationship that we build with our dogs, and I just wanna help as many people as possible to do that. That, that

Yeah,

heart of what I do. With my little side shoot, obviously of the complex dogs which is, it is a love, well, I say it's a love. I don't think any of us who live with these dogs really love everything about it, but these dogs and their people is definitely a love.

yeah, definitely. And we are trying to get away from the word reactive and inverted comm, aren't we? So we're using sort of words now because reactive is such a broad term and I hate it because there's tons of reasons why a dog could be reactive. So, you know, we're going with sort of complex, sensitive, I even heard spicy the other day. I love spicy.

I love that. And Andy Hale uses the term socially sensitive, which I think just sums it up so brilliantly. I do use the word reactive sometimes, but it's purely because that's the word that people tend to know.

Exactly. Yes.

once they've sort of found me, then I can start to say, well, actually, that that's not quite right. It's a labor and it's not quite what's going on here.

Yeah.

And.

So what led you to set up your business then? Because you've got colleagues and you've worked with colleagues. I know that. So what, how did tell our listeners how you came, how it all sort of came together then?

Well, my relationship with Do Re I grew up on a farm and in my teen years started with working She Dogs with Border Collies. The farm has now gone, but the border Collies have remained and it was for my sins. It was one particular one of these dogs who, you know, he came to us as a puppy, like, you know, many dogs before and things just didn't go quite the same way.

Hmm.

There were things

Yeah.

with and at that point I didn't know enough about those issues to be able to help him. So I was kind of, I was where a lot of people are now when they realize something's wrong with their dog. But I was fortunate that I had the luxury of being able to go and I turned myself into like a full-time dog student. I spent a

Mm.

of years where all I did was learn about dogs.

Oh, really? Okay. Oh, brilliant. Yeah, because you, yeah, you now tutor and you, you write books and all sorts now, so we can talk about that.

stumbled on the Kine Reactive behaviour course at Kine Principles. A friend of

Yes, yes, that's right.

it just in a strange sort of circle, I now tutor that course, which, yeah. That, that actually was a fantastic moment for me when I was asked to tutor that course. And it's like,

Yeah.

you know?

Yeah. That's amazing. I love that.

and it, it's, the tutoring also has kind of helped me to broaden out with trying to, to help people sort of on my own, I'd call, you know, I am a behaviour consultant, but I don't necessarily work in quite the same way as a lot. a

Oh, okay.

sort of the education and just. It's, it's just that understanding.

Yes. Yeah, and that's good. I think it's important. I'm really big on education and, you know, under, you know, helping people understand because you don't know what you don't know. So if there's someone there that can help, you know, with that. That's great. So we mentioned about your books. You are an author you've written several books on building relationships with dogs. What inspired you to share your knowledge through writing?

initially, well, the very first book that I wrote was one on Reactive Dogs. It's called the Reactive Dog Guardians Handbook. Still triggers along and cells now sometimes. And

Okay. It.

that because, I mean, this was back before I started. I think I just started with the tutoring then. And I hadn't writing, I had a blog and my writing was sort of tending along the lines of working with these sensitive dogs, but I wasn't so focused on working with them. As a professional at that point. And what I found was there was a lot of advice on how to work with these dogs and, you know, with the counter conditional desensitization and so on. there was almost nothing for the human end of the lead. This was just before Janet Finley's book came out, your

Yes. Yeah, I've got that one. Yeah.

you know, hers and mine came out at a similar sort of time. Hers was much better. I've got a lot better remitting since then.

Ah.

But before that, there really wasn't anything much for the people. So you have these poor people who things are going wrong with their dogs, and it's

Mm

hard to be that person on the end of that lead,

mm.

wasn't the support there for them. So I just wanted to write something just sort of to let people know you are not alone,

Yes. Yeah.

okay to have these feelings. It's okay to be sad, it's okay to be angry. It's okay to grieve the life that you are expecting when you brought a dog into the family. But there are things that we can do to help.

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And you've recently released a new book, haven't you?

Of last

it's in, yes, it's in my Amazon basket. I'm, I'm barely there to get, I've got all these, but I've seen yours behind me. I've now got a bookcase behind me, nowhere near as big as yours. Got all these books I love, like supporting other, you know, trainers and behaviourists and colleagues I work with and yours in my basket, like saved because I want to get, I'll get your recent songs. I keep seeing people posting about it and reading it and Andy mentioned it as well.

He

so you,

for it for

yes. Yeah. That's amazing. So tell us a little bit, so you've just released at the end of last year, building bonds. I don't wanna

living in

yeah, I love that.

It came out end of September, beginning of October. So really not very long ago.

Yeah.

it's, it's looking at kind of all of the aspects of our lives with dogs and what we can do in each of those aspects to build a strong relationship. So it's looking at training. The focus of the book isn't on training, but obviously it is a big part of our life with dogs. There's a section on that. There's play, there's sleep, there's canine emotions,

Oh, okay.

there's so many

There's lots.

yeah, there's a chapter on communication.

Yeah.

it's

Love that.

I did question my sanity a few times writing it because it's such a big topic. It was really hard to organize how I was going to write it,

I bet. Yeah.

because everything else I've written before that has been like focused on a single topic.

Okay. This is, yeah, lots of different things.

that it, it's just, okay, it's a single topic. It's living with

I,

but

yeah,

just not that simple, is it?

no.

many aspects to it.

Yeah. So what was that number four, number five.

Number five.

Yeah. Number six on the way or plans in the future.

seven and eight are in various, various stages of,

6, 7, 8.

nine is also in the planning, but that's a long-term project. That's gonna take me quite a while. That one, because,

Wow.

of dog terminology, so that is,

Okay.

yeah.

Yeah.

of breaking down dog training and behaviour jargon into slightly

Yeah.

language so that that one is taking a while.

I think we might have to have a chat offline 'cause I believe you do like a writer's or an author's mentorship as well. Did you wanna just tell our listeners about that?

Yeah. Basically for anybody who, who wants to be a do writer it's, we do a monthly one-to-one session, sort of talk about your project, go through it. Yeah, if there are any questions while writing, can be emailed or messaged. I'll proofread, give

okay.

writing, basically

Yeah.

first starting your idea through to self-publishing because all mine is self-published. So

okay.

anybody who

That's really interesting.

then yeah, I run a mental scheme for that.

Yeah, we can obviously give your details at the end of the episode for various you know, contact points for people wanting to get your books and obviously your mentoring scheme. The only reason I say about that is because of Mutual said the other day, Sally Gutridge said that I should write a book, and nowhere in a million years did I, would I ever say that I was ever gonna, that I, that I don't even think I could do it. There's no way I could write a book. And she's like, yes, you could. You can write a book. There's a book in you. You could write a book about dog walking or like business mentoring to do a dog walking.

I

And I have.

that Sally is responsible for my first one because I made the mistake of saying to Sally one day, oh, I think I could write a book, and she said, do it. And then I said, I'm not going to. She said, yes, you are. So,

Yeah, I knew she was responsible for you. So like, I thought I just, she sowed the seed with me now, the little m and she said oh, you know, you could do it. And I was like, never in a million years did I ever, wow. Do I ever want to write a, but, but maybe one day there's, there's something there that, you know, that I could maybe do, but I've got a quite a, an interest in life. I always feel like I should do like a bit of an autobiography or something. But not only Sally, but I interviewed Dr. Conor Brady recently and he even said to me that I, I, I've got a book in me and I should write. So even if,

book.

of, if Connor, if Connor Brady and Sally Gutridge just saying it, then maybe it'll have to go on the plan at some point and I'll be, I'll be hitting you up for help.

No Escape now.

No, that's it. I've committed. So moving on to our next section then, which is great. So it is all about what makes a dog complex in inverted or sensitive in inverted commas. So when we talk about complex or sensitive dog, j what does that actually mean?

It, it kind of ties back to that label of reactive, because the easiest way to describe these dog dogs is they tend to be the ones they overreact to things.

Mm

So it doesn't matter whether these things bother us, whether we think they're scary, the problem is that the dog is bothered by them.

mm Yeah.

on exactly what's going on, what's caused it, the reactions can be kind of different. I mean, the, the stereotypical thing that we tend to think of is the barking and lunging, you know, the sort of big loud, very big feelings coming out, but it starts much more subtly than that. And. Part of my passion is trying to help people to understand. I saw a great, great quote the other day of listening to your dog when they whisper rather than when they have to shout. And I love that.

that. Absolutely love that.

just sums it up because when you can

It does. Yeah.

need to shout out.

Because they give us so many signs, don't they? And if we sort of, if people like, like what we go back to about education, if we understood and we read the dog in front of us, learn a bit more about canine body language, they give us so many like indications and like they give us so many warnings or so many, like ways of telling us before they get to the point where they're having to bark all that. And it could be so subtle, but if we just took time to understand that.

Yeah. And also the fact that it's slightly different for every dog.

Exactly. Got yes.

my, my lad Finn, love him to bit, he's the most gorgeous blue male Holly.

Yeah.

he's a lot better now than he was. He used to be quite challenging. He's reactive to people, dogs.

This the one you had to introduce to your other dog? Because you've got two, ain't you? So when I first met you, you were into, there was like an introduction period or something, is that right?

my, my

Yeah.

came along as a little puffy and there was a lot of very, very careful management with playpens. And we actually fenced off a section of the Gurdens. She could run up and down the fence, one side and him and the other.

Oh wow.

we didn't need that much earlier than we did because she just sort of came around the fence, bopped him on the nose and off they went playing. But yet, because of the way he is we decided that a pucky was gonna be far easier for him to be introduced to because, you know, there's obviously not a threat there.

it's like a blank canvas, isn't it? Of a puppy, hopefully.

You've hit on one of my pet hates there. I hate that saying.

Oh dear. Oh.

Yes. Well, no, because it actually leads onto a really good point of what actually causes these in the first place. And it goes right back to genetics. Genetics can play a

Yeah.

So you know, this, this happens like at conception, so you'd hope that the puppy is as blank accounts as possible, but you always have to remember there's elements there that can be an issue.

Yeah. Like you say, from genetics and hereditary traits and stuff and the, you know, the dog, the, you know, what the dog's bed for and stuff.

Finn is, he's a really good example because he's like, if you take all of the things that we know can cause doc a doctor to have issues, he's got all of them

Okay.

because his mum was nervous.

Right.

didn't think anything of that at the time because, you know, we'd been round dogs that weren't that keen on people. No, she was nervous. Then when we got him home, he was unwell during his socialization period and we weren't able to take him out and about. And then when he got better and we started taking him back out into the world, he got attacked. So

yeah.

about five months old then when, when he was yeah, big mastiff bit him and it kind of, it went from there. It, it

Yeah.

three months for it really to come out. And that is something else that could make it complicated. There can be so much time between event and the reaction's starting to come out.

Yeah, yeah,

can be really, really hard to make that connection. now

yeah.

I know everything that wasn't ideal from the start and the things that I didn't do quite right and, you know, all the things

Yeah.

differently with Rogue, my young dog.

Yeah. But I, I love how you you know, I'm all about setting the dog up for success. So, and being your dog superhero, and that's what you've done for Finn. You've advocated for him and you've been his superhero because you've put all this control and management in place, you know, to, for him and for the, the, the new puppy. And that's really important, isn't there?

take a lot of management. I mean, they're, they're absolutely fine now. She's, she's nearly two now, so

Yeah.

a while. We did

Yeah.

a time before, a couple of years before RO came along where we tried to introduce another puppy and it just didn't work. And we

Oh, okay.

the puppy had to go back to his breeder because fin wasn't ready.

Oh, okay. Right.

point. He needed

Fair enough.

settle in himself. So a couple of years RO came along and yeah, they're, they're getting well.

Yeah. But good for you for acknowledging that though, and obviously saying that it wasn't the right times. The puppy went back to the breeder. That's, that's really amazing.

it was awful. 'cause he was here for four days and he was just the most gorgeous, confident little dog. And that was the problem. was too And in your face of Finn was rogue. When I went to see her in her litter, there were three puppies and one puppy came and bounced all over the fence. You know, come on, look at me, come and fuss me. Another

yeah.

hid behind the kennel. And I, my first thought was, I'm not having you. I've got one complicated dog. I don't need another one right now. And then there was this little dog, she was the smallest puppy of the three, and she just sat in the middle of the pen and she looked me up and down, and then

Mm.

me. And that's just her attitude to life. Is she, she's a thinker. She thinks about things so she's not full on and in your face, which is exactly

Okay. Yeah.

she, she will, she'll go in and try and, and. Instigate play. She sort of goes in with all the teeth waving round playfully and, and dabs in with a paw, and then he does it and he's about three times the size of us. So

How old is Finn now?

Finn is eight?

Right. Okay. It's a bit of a age difference, isn't it? Yeah. He is getting into senior years.

She's two in a couple weeks. So we didn't

Oh. But it kind of keeps him young a bit.

long

probably keeps him young a bit, doesn't it?

because he had the problems with other dogs. I mean, we did have another dog when we got him, but Red was 12 when Finn came along, and he really wasn't interested in all these puppy shenanigans. So Finn had kind of forgotten how to play

Right.

You know, playing with people is fine. He, he didn't know how to play with other dogs. And he's actually, I mean, it looks and sounds terrifying because there's growling and teeth all over the place, but that's just how they play. They love it.

Yes. Yeah.

we just

Good.

be guided by her. If she keeps getting up and going back for more, it's fine.

Yeah. Yeah.

But yeah, it takes a lot of management with one of these dogs.

Yeah. Oh, okay. And what I love as well, I meant to say earlier, is that everyone I seem to speak to, they all get into the profession or the industry because of their own sort of dog that they've,

Yeah.

wanna say like, have issues with, but like, well, it is because a lot of it, a lot of the time is because they're, the dogs sort of, you know, going through stuff. And then that's made the owner, the pet parent sort of then learn more, and then they then decided to get into it as a, as a a career. You know, I've got my own essay dog. He's got like chronic back pain, so then he's sort of resource guards and he's reactive and he's blessing, he's got essay and stuff and like, you know, outta seven, I haven't done too bad that it's got one that's got his, you know, got his quacks as I like to call it, is a special boy.

I tend

But

you know, the, these dogs have actually led us. They've needed us to learn something.

yeah.

we've

Yeah.

that and sort of discovered that other people need help with those things. So that's kind of how we go.

why I, that's why I specialized in sa in the end, in in lockdown because my dog walking business had to close. And I then retrained as a, a dog train and literally did as many courses as I could. And I then specialized in SA and then I thought, well, you know, it helps me understand him more, but then I can help others. And there was like, this big boom wasn't then

Yeah,

with people going back to work and stuff. So, you know, I do love the SC work, but

boom with the learning too. 'cause I was tutoring through lockdown and the,

yeah,

it was like, it

everyone's just,

regular levels of as assessments and all of a sudden up it went. 'cause everyone had time.

yeah, they did. Everyone was at home or Yeah. More time to learn. But that's good. I'm glad that people were learning stuff 'cause that's what we need. So our next question, we have touched on it a little bit, but these traits is it something a dog is born with or do they develop it over time?

some and some. Obviously genetics the dog is born with

Yeah.

Also, you have epigenetics that comes into play, which is where, you know, there are things that can affect gene expression, turn genes on and off. And if you have a mom who is stressed throughout a whole pregnancy, that can have

Mm.

on the puppies before they're even born. But there are also areas that aren't set in stone. Obviously the, the big thing is like puppy socialization, so getting them used to the world. And also a lot of people have a misunderstanding of what socialization actually is.

Yeah, I know.

many people who think that it's, you know, it's going a meeting and interacting with everybody and every dog. And in actual fact a lot of the time with puppies and letting them watch quietly from a distance and get

Yeah.

to things, it, it is a better way to start.

Yeah.

Then we also have a. The dogs who have bad experiences. So the ones who are attacked

Former, there's kind of sticks of him.

that's, then you end up with what we call like single event or one trial learning where one bad experience, if it's severe enough, can stay with that dog for life.

Mm mm It's a shame, isn't it?

And

Mm.

also an aspect sometimes of, we know that dogs, dogs are social animals. They do social learning so they can learn from others. again, going

Yeah.

as an example, because Finn has these issues of things that he's worried with, we made sure that although they both go out for a walk when it was early in the morning and there was nothing for Finn to worry about, about in the day times where there were would be people, dogs, cars, other animals about that I would take Roget on her own. So she got to

Mm-hmm.

these things without worrying about her seeing fin reacting and worrying

Mm

she should worry about.

mm.

that is a, that's kind of a slightly lesser element, but it is something just to keep in mind,

Yeah. Okay. Brilliant. So how can pet parents recognize if they have a sensitive or complex dog?

it comes back to what we were talking about earlier on with body language.

Yes. Big in it.

it's taking the time to learn the signs of stress and importantly, learn what they look like in your dog. So

Yeah.

what your dog looks like at home, when they're relaxed and happy, what they look like when they're excited and playing, and starting to see the signs of when they're not comfortable with something.

Mm,

Because especially in the early stages, they will tell us a long time before it gets to the reacting stage.

Yeah.

If those signs don't work, they can start to not show those anymore because they've not got them. The, the, again, going back to Andy Hale, he talked about the relief. safety and

Yeah.

from the stress.

Mm.

level of signals haven't got the dog that relief. So

Mm,

something else that you see a lot of the time is dogs do what works. that

yes.

works when it comes to stress. You know, if a dog is in a situation, they don't feel safe. And that's essentially what it is. This, this dog does not feel safe.

Mm

they need

Yeah.

they need to get away from that thing and they will do what gets 'em that distance. So

Yes.

you know, whether that is, that their, their guardian will listen when they start to show these more subtle signs, or

Mm.

else fails the lunging and barking, that's pretty much guaranteed because we all then, you know, sort of get hold of them and, and drag them away.

And this is the thing, isn't it? It's those subtle signs like we lip licking, yawning. People recognize like the, the vocalization with the barking and the, the lunge. But these subtle signs that you may, you may miss, you may blink and miss it. It's all those little things, isn't it? That can, that's leading up to it.

But with Finn, he will get very fixated. He gets very vigilant

Mm. Hypervigilance. Yeah.

a lot of it depends on your dog. He, is very, very food oriented. He has the most food

Mm,

Collie I've ever met. He thinks he's a Labrador and a fat one.

love it.

So yeah, he, he would eat 24 hours a day if he could. So for him not to be able to take food is a clear sign that he's stressed. But it

Okay. Yeah.

than that. If he's starting to worry about something but still isn't at a point where he has to overtly react, he will start to snatch treats.

Hmm. Interesting.

to what his inner level is. If he starts to

Mm-hmm.

need more distance.

Yeah.

But

Yeah.

really, really different to a lot of of sensitive dogs because often see the advice of, you know, don't ask them to sit, whereas he will sit and watch something. That's just

Okay.

it. And

Mm.

your own dog, their communication, their preferences, their needs is central.

Yeah, that's what I was gonna say is that obviously you've gotta work with a dog in front. 'cause every dog in breed's different, aren't they? So what your dog does is probably different to my toy poodle or

Yeah.

know, you've gotta learn.

border colleagues. We actually, we had mother and daughter at one point, and you could not have got two

Oh

dogs.

yeah.

was really intelligent, didn't really care about people. Daughter loved people, not two brain cells to rub together. She was the sweetest little dog, but she just, there were she had an original thought in her life. Bless her.

yeah.

dog for closeup work. 'cause she just did whatever you asked her to, but

Yeah.

that required her to think. She wasn't so hot on that. Bless her.

Yeah. Yeah, I've got a mother and daughter but they're quite similar actually. It's interesting. But and also talking about like this ladder of aggression and this escalation pyramid, that's some of the signs, like the, the lip licking, the blinking and you know, it can go up and up and then it gets to like a growl. But we often hear about sort of over arousal, don't we? And over threshold. So that's when the dog can make a negative or positive choice, isn't it? If they've got to that point.

Yeah. I mean, if you think about arousal levels, everything that, we are doing. Will affect arousal levels.

Mm, that bucket fill into that.

yet

Mm.

is a great way to describe it. I will often use spoon theory, so,

heard of spoon theory. What's that one?

you start, start the day and you have a certain number of spoons to

Oh, okay.

Okay. And

Yes.

maybe getting up, having a shower, getting dressed, that uses two spoons.

Yeah.

argument with somebody in the street that uses three spoons and you get to the end of the day and you've run out spoons. So that's, you can, you know, you just can't take anymore, and that's when you go over threshold.

Yeah. You blow

Yeah.

was hearings too.

The other way I used to describe it that I, I've written in my books is to describe a, a supermarket shopping trip where, you know, you have the one

Okay.

straight to the supermarket, into the carpark, into the shop round. The shop you are in the queue, someone cuts in front of you and you know, it's a bit annoying, but you know, no big deal. Then you

Yeah.

and you walk out the front door and your car's got a flat tire. Every traffic

Yeah.

on the way to the supermarket is red. You get to the, the car park and the only space left is right over the far side of the car park next to the idiot who can't park straight into the supermarket. And you've got one of those trolleys with the wonky wheel. So as you're going round, you know, your neck hurts, your back hurts. You just wanna get on, you wanna get done. And then this person cuts you up in the queue and they turn around and give you this big SM grin. And it's

Oh,

And anybody that looks all of that, it's just gonna say that you went off out nowhere and it wasn't, it's all those little things building up

up to it, isn't it? Yeah.

And it's exactly the same with dogs.

Like a volcano erupting.

Oh, you've, you've seen me supermarket shopping there.

Oh my God. I hate supermarket. I don't go, I make my husband go, so

I

I can't stand it.

We get it.

Wow. We used to do that. We used to do that, but he got fed up with a bloody date, so he has to go now. But he does park as far away as he can 'cause he's so precious about his bloody car, so he parks the furs away.

that

Right. And the f and the funniest Wow. Frustrating for him. Funny thing for me is that be all these other spaces and then a car would would've parked right next to him and he loses his shit. But yeah, but the point of this is, is that the dogs can hit their threshold and then they can sort of react and, you know, go over a threshold and over aroused. And that's when they then sort of do the barking. In lung. It's important to identify the signs through your dog before they get to that,

it's important to That things that have happened at the previous couple of days can

Exactly. It can build up, it takes about 48 hours for, well, 70, is it 72 hours? My mind's gone back for arousal levels to decrease or

up to 72.

again, dog dependent. Yeah.

Absolutely.

Yeah. And you could be adding to this bucket and there's still, that's why I like to say to people, like, if something's happened the next day, you just need to have a day off from walking and do some brain games, sniffy games. 'cause you just need to give them chance to decompress.

yeah.

Yeah.

such an important part of the process

Yeah, definitely.

trying to work on their relationship with the things that bother them, without that decompression, you're just, you're not giving either you or them a chance for success.

Well, they can't learn can of when they're in that heightened state of arousal and stress and that.

that's the ability to learn. Just go. If you think about it, this is them in survival mode

Yeah.

this thing bothers them so much or you know, this, of these things together have bothered them so much that they're just in, they're literally in fight or flight

Yes.

it, you

Yeah.

just, they're just trying to survive the situation. It doesn't matter that in actual fact, it's a bin bag, it's fine. It's not gonna eat them. It really can you tell, I used to ride horses. It really doesn't matter. Well, in actual fact, there was one occasion with Finn where I was walking him. It's four 30 in the morning and he just stopped one day and would not walk along the path. And we actually

Sorry. Four 30 in the morning. Fly me.

that's when I used to walk him, because it was the only time I could walk him without stress.

Yeah.

But the,

The things we do for our dogs.

yeah, definitely. Especially when it's like November. That wasn't fun.

Ooh. Ooh.

The only way he would go forward was he'd make a big semicircle and I couldn't work out what on earth was going on.

Mm.

and looked back, someone had left their bin six feet away from its normal position. And because dogs are so context sensitive, they, they, they see so much more of their environment than we would notice that to him was wrong. So

Okay.

was danger

Yeah. Oh, bless him.

so bad now. And if, if Rose says anything like that, she just barks at it.

Right.

She

There's no, is is there, is there still 4, 5, 4 30 gis or have you managed to

No, no,

get a few lions now?

will do early walk walks that just 'cause that suits him. It j

Yeah. Yeah.

it

And he works nights as well, doesn't he? So,

Yeah. Or you know, like early starts so it, it suits

yeah.

walk early.

It's nice. You'd have to bump into anyone. I think I prefer it as well. I just,

the other thing we do is we, we go to places where there's just like masses and masses of space. So, you know, we are quite lucky that it takes us a couple of hours to get there, but we can actually go to Salibury plane and Okay. You have to occasionally

Oh, yes, I know.

which can be interesting when they emerge out of the grass in front of you. But know, it's just somewhere with lots of space and really good eye lines so you can see anybody and in a different direction if you need to.

Yeah,

a lot, lot better now we can sort of pass somebody like the other side of the road without too much hassle. He might

that's good.

snort at them, but.

It's not,

Oh, he

it's not

and

too bad.

and yeah

so, oh God, I lost my train of thought. I was gonna say something then. Right. Okay. Let's move on to our next question in this section then. And so how can pet parents recognize if they have a sensitive or complex dog?

again, we're going back to that body language

Oh, that's what I was gonna say. Being a dog detective. Yes. Body language.

yes. Sarah Fisher came up with that, wasn't it?

Yes. Yes,

brilliant.

I think so.

ace free work for, for Sensitive Dogs is just amazing. It's absolutely

Yeah.

and it fits in really well in the decompression stage.

Yeah.

but yeah, that, that's largely what it comes down to. When you've spent time studying your dog and learning about sort of the language, you can see like really little subtle signs like their whiskers flaring. You know, is is it's like a, an early stage sign that

I've

checking

never even thought of that before. My God, that's so interesting.

My, my young girl, she's, she's got sort of very luxurious whiskers. They're all sort of very bright white and she can really see, 'cause the, the basin's dark. So you can really kind of see when she's got them flared forward.

Oh,

Yeah.

you have to hear about cats having like quite prominent whiskers. But I've never thought about my dog's Whiskers. I'm gonna be looking at 'em now.

if you think, Joe, we know that one of the early signs of stress is like tension in the lips. And then if you also

Yeah.

of whiskers, it's just, you know, it's like a sensory thing. It makes sense

Mm.

kind of out and ready.

Yeah.

So yeah, that, that is, that is is a sign that I'll use quite often with my guys. The vigilance thing is a really good thing to look for if you know, if they seem to be looking for something listening, staring in, in a direction,

Mm. Heckers can go out, can't they? Like pile erection

yeah,

and all that sort of stuff?

yeah. Which with Rogue is hilarious 'cause she can only get them on her shoulders and her bum. it. That's all.

Yeah.

has these

These little Tufts. Yeah. So it's all about like, I'm really big on sort of pet parents and people working with dogs. You know, just learn understanding, learn canine body language. Really?

of the areas I tell people to look at most, because it's one of the easiest bits to see is the tail. So if you

Yes.

naturally carries their tail, so like with my

Mm.

tend to be down like that, or

Yeah.

up is when the, like the

Yeah,

levels are starting to go up. And with thin, if it goes above level with his back, it's time to

yeah,

out.

yeah. I was chatting to my friends that weekend. They have a rescue from Romanian. They said that they have towel, literally tucks so far under as far as it can go. And

Yeah,

that's a interesting sign.

yeah,

Mm-hmm.

it's one of those ones where it's really important to understand your individual dog. 'cause obviously like, say something like a Whippet or a Greyhound where they tend to carry their tails very low. other breeds that could be a sign of extreme fear,

Mm-hmm.

whereas for,

Yeah.

or whip it, it's their natural position. But for them it would come almost up and up, touch the tummy underneath. So

That's right.

really important to understand your breed or type of dog and your

Yeah.

And obviously it gets complicated when you have like the dogs who've had got no tails, whether they're

I was about, I was literally thinking that, thinking that as we were talking towels, like do towels. It's hard, doesn't it? Mm,

kind of look at the, the muscles. the

yes.

Similar with

Yeah.

obviously ear movements are much easier to see in dogs who've got pricked ears. But if you've got dogs that have long ears, if you look at the base of the ear, you can with practice, see how the muscles are moving to see if they've gone forward or back. 'cause those

Interesting.

in in the similar sort of way,

Mm.

quite so easy to see.

My chihuahua ears are very different to my poodle ears.

Yeah,

You

yeah.

know, chihuahuas like this and they go round. And then the poodles obviously all long and brilliant. Moving on to our next section, which is all about challenges and misconceptions about our sensitive and complex dogs. Many owners of sensitive or complex dogs feel like they're failing or not doing enough. What would you say to them in that case?

Absolutely not. You know,

Hmm mm

it's really hard to be the person with one of these dogs.

mm.

stand there on the end of the lead and have, there's, there's this expectation in society of dogs behaving a certain way. You know, dogs should be able to go everywhere, do

Yeah.

know, with no trouble at all. In my life with dogs, I've had one dog like that, one dog

Yeah. I,

anywhere I've fallen in my un one dog and I'll probably never have another,

why? Okay.

those sorts of dogs are actually really incredibly rare

Mm,

because there's so, society's understanding of what a dog should be is not actually the reality of the dog.

I know it's frustrating as well. Mm. Do you think since lockdown we, we are seeing more like are we seeing it more like dogs with sort of, I don't wanna say issues, but dogs with sensitivities? Dogs that are, yeah. Dogs in child, that's the word. I couldn't get my words out. Are we seeing that more since lockdown, do you think?

so. I mean, obviously there was that huge boom in people getting dogs in lockdown

Hmm

and especially puppies who joined their families in lockdown. They missed out and lot that

hmm. Yeah. That key socialization period.

I mean, you know, those, those first weeks up to sort of about 12, 13 weeks old are

That's it. Hmm.

puppies, you know, even if they were being able to go out for walks, they weren't seeing as much as they would normally. So that does make you, some dogs will come through that and be relatively unscathed. dogs will struggle.

Yeah. Yeah.

And I think possibly also in that time, a lot of, a lot more first dog parents.

Yeah. There was a lot. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

They maybe would've wanted a dog for a while, but felt like they, they couldn't because of responsibilities. Well, you know, we've got all this time that we are gonna be at home. We're gonna be working from

Yeah.

let's, let's have a dog.

And then they didn't realize when they were starting to return back to the office how that dog was gonna cope.

because I'm sure you probably see that as well in your, your SA

Yeah.

Yeah. It, it, you know, the two sort of really tied together with that

Well, mark and my husband really blames himself or us because he was furloughed for so long in lockdown. He says that's why Bailey got sa, but you know, it's obviously genetics as well, but he's the only one out of the four toys that have got it, luckily, but you know.

sometimes it's just hard to pinpoint, you know, I'm, I'm kind, kind of quite fortunate with Finn in that I can pinpoint the different bits that went into it, which one of them had the most impact. way of knowing.

Mm-hmm.

and, and that is often the case. I think also, I, I have a bone to pick with Disney. they

Oh, okay.

hot

Disney, they, they got a lot to answer for. They have.

But it's just kind of all of these, these, these sort of cartoons and programs and fictional things that make having a dog seem so easy. You know? Oh, having a dog's, no problem. Anyone can do it. You know? It's easy to

Mm-hmm.

it's not,

Mm-hmm.

really isn't to just sort of be a responsible dog guardian. There's a lot to think about and yeah. And that, that's just with a dog who doesn't struggle with aspects of life.

Mm-hmm.

there are a lot of people that don't do that. 'cause we all know that he's friendly brigade,

Oh God.

yeah,

Yeah.

won't go down that route.

If I had, yeah, I was gonna say, if I had a, every time I'd hear that I'd be a million there.

Yeah.

Yeah.

not connected to sensitive dogs. But my sort of funny anecdote with that was I was out at one point with my previous dog my uniform dog had him out. He was on lead 'cause we were walking through this, this sort of busy bit of bridal path before we got to the field. And this black Labrador turned up, you know, running loose, no sign of her

As you do.

And she was getting very excited and sort of jumping around red and he wasn't taking any notice 'cause he just, his thing was, hello. Okay, I'm gonna go sniff over here. And it was a good 10 minutes before this person turned up and, oh, there you are.

Really?

aren't you a funny girl? And

gosh.

this, this Labrador was trying to almost reverse under my dog.

Oh gosh.

So I said

Oh.

woman, probably ought to tell you that my dog is in fact entire, and she then kicked off at me about how irresponsible I was to be out with an unrated dog. He was on the lead. She had

Oh my word.

absolutely ragingly standing in season bitch out of her sight for 10 minutes. But I was the irresponsible one.

God knows what could have happened in that 10 minutes. They can tie and it can be over in 10.

Fortunately Red had absolutely no idea what it was for.

Yeah.

absolutely not a

some people honestly.

So that's

Oh,

extreme anecdote of, of the, the sort of the, he's friendly people.

Yeah. The friendly brigade. So what would you say are some of the common mistakes pet parents make when trying to help and invite commas? Their sensitive or complex dog?

I think one of the most common ones is probably. Thinking that making them face up to their fears is going to help. if you think

Hmm.

it as when you've got humans with phobias, because

Yeah.

yeah, it's no different to humans with phobias,

Yeah.

humans with phobias, like say you've got someone who's scared of spiders, they'll go to one of those things where they hold a spider,

Mm,

therapy, they call it,

yes. Yes. Flooding, yes.

is where

good.

No, no, it, it is where the situation's just so overwhelming for the dog. They literally just become flooded with stress and they shut down.

Mm.

these, that can work for humans because we can rationalize it, we can have someone there talking us through it, and we can have

Yeah.

sort of slightly more advanced bit of our brain going, look it, it's fine. This, this little thing isn't going to hurt you.

Yeah.

have part of, of the front area of their brain where rational thinking takes place.

Right. Why?

they can't actually reason their way through the situation. So when you try and get them to face up to their fears, all you're doing is the flooding and that will

Mm.

it worse. So you, you, you, you're doing things for, for the very best of reasons,

Yeah, but

yeah, I've so often

I,

to people who've tried that and they, they sort of come to me and say, oh, I feel so bad. So I say to them, you were doing the best you could with what you knew at the time.

yeah,

something I

'cause Yeah.

so often.

Yeah. We dunno what we don't dunno. I think I heard something like before, like you can be scared of spiders and love chocolate, but if you sat and if they sat you in a room with loads of spiders and fed you chocolate, it's not gonna make you overcome your fear of the spiders.

it would probably put you off chocolate, wouldn't it? If if that, actually, that leads me on nicely to another mistake. Obviously one of the techniques that we'll often use to try and work with these dolls is counter conditioning.

Yeah.

you use something really, really nice, often high value treats. So when I say high value, I'm talking like bits of hot dog, of ham, cheese, steak, you know, anything that the

Mm

really loves.

mm. The good stuff.

when they are around their trigger, you use that, you feed them this high value treat, or you have their favorite game that they only play when the, the trigger is around. But timing of that is really, really important because you've got to make sure that they see the scary thing from a

Mm.

where they feel safe and then the food comes along. 'cause otherwise what happens is you're feeding them, they see the scary thing and that nice steak becomes a predictor of the scary thing coming along.

Well, yes.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

end up, we call it poisoning

That's it. Yeah. Poisoning. Yeah.

Yeah.

Right?

becomes a predictor of the bad thing, rather than doing what you're intending to do. actually, you know, giving them a pleasant association with the thing that they're scared of.

Yeah. So about the timing and like you say as well how can we reframe the idea of fixing an inverted comma behaviours to better support these dogs?

I think a lot of it comes down to, for so many years it was denied that animals have emotions.

Hmm. Yeah.

Charles Darwin was talking about emotions in animals. So you're going back to like the 1870s. I've got a book on the shelf back there, which the expression of emotions in animals. A man. So he was actually, you know, sort of back then looking at emotions in animals. But we've

Mm,

more research now especially work of the Dog project and Gregory Burns where they've actually managed to train dogs to stay still in MRI machines to have scans run while they're awake. All done

wow.

training. is such, such a great advert for, for using positive reinforcement.

Yeah, definitely.

able to do scans on these dogs' brains when they're awake and record the areas of their brain that for with certain things.

Mm-hmm.

used some things that you would think would promote sort of like emotions, so say sense

Mm-hmm.

family. And they actually found that the same areas activating the dog's brains is activating the human brains.

Mm-hmm.

So, you know, we have concrete evidence that dogs have emotions. They don't necessarily have all of the emotions that we do, but you know, sort of happy, sad, scared, They can have all of those.

Mm.

And I think understanding that can help us go a long way to seeing that what these dogs actually need is us to support them and understand behaviour doesn't happen in a vacuum.

Mm

behaviour is communication.

Mm

when the dog is barking, lunge, and they're telling you that there is something in that, that situation they can't cope with.

Yeah. Yeah.

So yeah, I, I have a graphic of, it's a tree, and at the top of the leaves you have behaviour. The trunk of the tree is emotion and the roots of the tree is need.

Hmm.

when you can start looking at what your dog needs in that situation, can understand the emotions they're feeling and why the behaviour is happening.

Yeah.

you can also see what they need to no longer feel. They need to show that behaviour. So often with one of these sensitive dogs, it'll be distance.

Yeah. Mm.

So

Yeah.

I, I have issues with the idea of fixing the dog anyway.

Yeah. I know. I hate that term,

yeah.

but it's just what you hear. No.

we're just looking to help them be more comfortable in their

Yeah. We're looking to understand them. Yeah. And help from what you say. Yeah. Brilliant. Let's move on then. So our next section is building trust and confidence with a sensitive dog. What are some of the first steps that pet parents can take to build trust with their sensitive dog?

I think a great time to start reworking on your relationship is during that com decompression phase.

Mm,

you know, would say to people that if the day dog walk is stressing you and your dog

yeah.

don't do it. Take a break, have a few days off, and what you can do is, 'cause obviously, you know, you've got to find ways for physical and mental stimulation for your dog during that time, so you can start working on your relationship. You can do like trick training, you know, anything that involves you interacting together. Find games you can play together. You know, down to things like hide and seek.

Yeah,

sort of have fun and enjoy each

just have fun. Yeah.

And you can also sort of work on like useful cues when you go back out into the world. So my,

Mm.

useful ones that I rely on a lot are, let's go. So that's, that's like, you know, we're walking and we pick up pace now

Yeah.

way, which is the 180 degree

like, like

and

that.

tail

Yeah.

of danger. And also during that time, because you're gonna be spending so much more time at home with your dog and they're gonna be more relaxed. So you can really take that time to see they look, what they do, how will the different areas of their body look when they're relaxed and

Mm.

And

Mm-hmm.

because the sooner the, or the more detail you can see of them being relaxed, the earlier you'll be able to see when they're starting to struggle with something.

Yeah. Yeah.

that,

Good.

time is really, really valuable.

Yeah, I used to say when I was doing a lot of in-person training, like particularly puppy training, I was like, have fun with it. 'cause the moment it doesn't become fun,

yeah,

you are lost. So

yeah. I mean,

you know you have fun.

my dogs have have learned to do all sorts of DT things like, you know, I'll hold my hand up and they have to work out a way to use the furniture to get, to touch their nose to my hand. You know, it doesn't have to have a purpose. You could just have fun with it. You know,

Yeah.

spin, you know, they, they do all these, these things that there's absolutely no purpose whatsoever, but they enjoy learning it, and I

Yeah.

with them, so we, we just enjoy it.

It just helps you build that bond and relationship, doesn't it, as well.

Yeah,

How does giving dogs more choice and agency over their ho, over their environment help them feel safer?

A lot of it comes down to the communication between dog and person. So

Hmm.

if the dog knows that they are going to be able to. whether they want to do something or not, and their person will listen to them. They have more trust in their person because you know, they can feel understood. They can feel listened to. They know that if they really struggle with something, they're not happy with something they will be listened to. equally, if they want to do something, then they know that their person will support them to do that.

Yeah.

It's

Yeah.

really, really great for resilience, and

Right.

that is so important in these dogs. It's all about being able to recover from these smaller stressors. The more you can

Yeah, I've not, Hmm,

of like the elasticity of

yeah, I've not heard that word much, but that's, that's good. Yeah.

that that's one that I learned from Sally and the way that she, the imagery she has, if you imagine like a boat

Yeah.

floating on the water

Mm-hmm.

underneath the boat is the amount of resilience you have. So if the

Why?

going out, eventually your boat's gonna ground out. But

Yeah.

plenty of water underneath the boat, that, that sort of loads of room for you to be able to sort of go up and down and, and, but

I love that. Mm-hmm.

you

Love that.

without any damage to, to the boat or your brain.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Brilliant. Alright. Are you able to share an example of a dog you've worked with or maybe your own dog who, who's made progress by using a trust-based approach? I.

Yeah. I, I generally use Finn because

Yeah.

so, so

he has.

has,

It's amazing.

he actually, he has got to the point where will still be stressed, but his first goal now when he sees something that bothers him is he just wants to walk past it as quickly as possible. Yeah.

Is it like avoidance almost? Like just like,

but

get me out of here.

he trusts that if there's a serious issue, we will, you know, we will

You've got his back.

it. And what, what we often do with him is if you see something that bothers him, like if you're out on a walk and there's like some farm machinery in a hedge or something right next to the path, and it kind of spooks him if it's safe to do so, we'll go over to it with him and just go, well, come on, come have a look. And so he kind of, he, he now has this attitude of, if we say it's okay, then it must be okay. And

Okay.

okay, he doesn't like the thing, but let's just get past it and then we can carry on and enjoy our walk.

Mm,

So it

good.

managing the situation much easier because the, the

Yeah.

need is so much smaller now.

Yeah, he is. Come on. Leaps and bounds. You've done so much work with him.

he my superstar voice.

Brilliant. Okay, so moving on to our next section, which is about practical strategies for everyday life. What are ways that pet parents can help their dog feel safe in a busy or unpredictable environment?

I'm a big fan of advocating for your dog. I

Yeah, yeah.

get quite noisy for

That'd be me.

Yeah, yeah. I, I, I have a good line in bellowing. Can you call your dog back, please? I, I came walking Finn one day in the woods local to hear. There was a, a dog walker who must have had five or six dogs, and I could hear them crashing around. We couldn't see them, could hear them, to hear that they were quite close. he, Finn was just starting to get a bit, you know, he sort of, his head was going on different directions, trying to work out where they were. So I just stood there and yelled at the top of my lungs. Can you call your dogs please? Round here. Luckily, most of them. Most of them are okay. We do have one or two that, that their dogs have no recall whatsoever.

Yeah,

one with my youngster a little while ago where she just stood it in the, the next gateway over, just calling dog's name over and over and over again. And the dog was just completely not listening. So I did

yeah,

emergency thing, which is always quite handy. Big handful of treats, log them to the side and then escape while they're looking for the treats.

yeah.

That, that's

Some find it.

that, that's one of my emergency escape strategies.

Yeah.

I've always

So

on me.

yeah, you can do a bit of scatter, feeling a bit of find it and stuff. Get them, get that nose on the floor. I'm used to saying, focused on the floor.

can use treats either for your own dog, just, you know, if there has been something that's upset 'em a bit, just a bit of scattering, bit sniffing, just sort of like to reset their nervous system a

Mm.

obviously sniffing is calming. Or

Yeah,

can use them to, to distract another dog who's coming towards you.

I'm out the way.

Yeah. yes, yell. You, you do find that the more time you spend as the person of one of these dogs, you get really, really good at environmental assessment.

Yeah, you're kind of always on a lap, aren't you?

yeah. I've actually found out walking my younger dog who is, you know, she's, you just snap a lead on her and away you go. She's really, really easy. And I just can't switch it off. Just,

You wire, you're like

in every direction. Just sort of nearly

autopilot 'cause you're wired into it.

It's, it is just, I, this is my life now.

Advocate. So I love that advocacy advocate for your dog. So if your dog was to have a bad day or a setback, how should the pet parent handle it?

Take a day off.

Day off. Yeah. Love that.

just

we said earlier.

at home. Have something nice for both of you. Just relax.

the chocolate out

Yeah. Yeah. Chocolate,

if you've not been put off by it.

please. he's quite pastured. A bit cheese. But yeah, just, just, you know, don't be afraid to have a

Mm.

and just

Just

calm chill out and yeah, just enjoy each other's company

Mm-hmm.

yeah, there,

Yeah.

no need to force yourself out there every day if it, it is not working for you.

Yeah. I've said this before, like, as humans, we're conditioned and must walk my dog every day, twice a day for 30 minutes or an hour a day, where some days some dogs just need a day off given, you know, like Nicki French, don't walk your dog day, give him a day off.

Yeah.

do some enrichment, sniffing brain games.

at times, you know, he's, he's a border collie. He's a farm bred Border Collie, so, you know, he, he's sort of one of those ones that people would say needs like three hours of running every day, two walks a week, and needs probably manage.

Yeah, it's, it's again, just working with a dog that's in front of you and then setting them up for success.

things that you can do at home, like brain work and, and playing games and say the trick training to replace that, that mental and physical stimulation, but without stress involved.

Yeah. Brilliant. I think we've sort of touched on our next question anyway, so we might be able to answer some quickly just about how the role of enrichment play helps our sensitive dogs feel more fulfilled and balanced.

Yeah, I mean, enrichment is all about physical and mental stimulation. And for these dogs, it's that mental stimulation that is, is absolutely key. You know, doing lots of things, sniffing, licking, chewing, all of those are known to have a calming effect. So

Yeah,

those days after a bad experience, lots of those are, are a really good idea.

yeah,

things. Sort of to work their brains, like food puzzles doesn't have to be expensive or complicated. It could be a cardboard box. One of Finn's

exactly.

box, about 20 L roll tubes and just

Yeah.

lo some kibble in there. And he's, he's quite happy. They're pulling the tubes out and the great thing is they can wreck the cardboard afterwards.

Is that

So,

doesn't have to cost any money. I mean, like 20 minutes of sniffing or nose, that can be the same as a 60 minute outdoor walk. In terms the brain and mental stimulation they get.

I actually once found, I took Finn for sniffy walk along a bit of footpath. So there were people and dogs that had passed along there. Obviously not when we were there, but in the 20 minutes I was there, I think we moved about 15 meters. That was the grand extent of our walk because his nose was just on the ground the whole time. We got back in the car. 'Cause it literally, I, I'd taken somebody for appointments. I dropped them off and just taken him for a quick, quick walk while waiting for them to be finished. So we went, picked that person back up, went home and he was literally upside down on the sofa for two hours. Snoring.

It is tiring, isn't it? It's, it's what people don't realize. Tiring. It's good for them. Yeah. Again, it's

the smell is the primary way that they analyze their world. So, you know, and they have this massive part of their brain that is geared specifically for analyzing scent. you

mm

working their brains

mm.

yeah, we all know if you've, like say you've been in an exam or something where you've had to sit and concentrate for a period of time, it is

Mm,

and it's no

it is,

for us.

yeah. Brilliant. Wow. Literally this episode's been jam packed. We've sound free this hour. My god, so many nuggets of you sort of information, some brilliant. So we're gonna spend the next five minutes just sort of wrapping up with some final questions. So thank you. Jay, if you could give dog guardians pet parents one key message about supporting their sensitive or complex dog, what would it be?

Listen to your dog.

Love it. Yeah.

it, it's all about that learning to under there. There's a great quote, I think, I can't remember the guy's name. Somebody Pmu, I think, or Han Pook. Dogs do speak, but only to those who can listen.

Yes, I've heard that one. Yeah.

So that time spent learning about the communication and specifically about how your dog communicates, how they feel, and what is normal for your dog. There is no such thing as a normal dog. It's all about what is normal for your dog.

I mean, what's normal nowadays? Normal, normal's, boring.

I'm not normal, so why would I expect a dog to be

I'm, I'm definitely not normal.

so, yeah, that, that is the, if, if I can send people away with one nugget of information, that would be it. Listen to your dog.

I mean, there's been loads of nuggets, but that I absolutely love that. Where I listen to your dog. We're gonna have to coin that one for you. For someone that's feeling overwhelmed, what would be the first step they can take to help their dog?

Take that break, that decompression. It's

Mm

just about decompression for the dog, because we know that being the person for one of these dogs is hard. It's stressful for the human as well.

mm-hmm.

if you think about it, if you think about your typical dog walk. The first few minutes or end a walk, your dog's on the lead.

Mm.

So if, you know, if you are stressed and you've got a death grip on the lead, you know your dogs will be able to feel that tension. And when you've got a dog who is a little bit sensitive anyway, they're gonna be, what, what, what, what can I need to worry about? And looking

Yeah. 'cause they pick up on that, don't they? Yeah.

it, it really is beneficial for both dog and person to relax and then you can go and start working on feeling better in the world around you together from that, that point where you've set yourself up for success because you

Mm-hmm.

all that stress.

Brilliant. Jay, where can our listeners find out more about your work, your books, and your resources, please?

Well my website is www.goodguardianship.com. I'm quite active on Facebook. I have a Facebook

Yeah.

is just under good guardianship.

Lovely.

are. available on Amazon.

Mm.

Most of them in ebook there's a couple that are in hardcover and three of them are in audiobook.

Oh wow. Brilliant.

eBooks can be got from a whole range of stores. The paperbacks in hardbacks can either from Amazon or can be ordered through other bookstores. Audio

Mm.

are via Amazon, audible, or Apple Books.

Yeah. And how can people find out more about your writing, mentorship, and your and your memberships? Is that all just online?

Yeah. Yeah. That's the details for all that are on Facebook. If anybody who's not on Facebook wants any details about it, if they just drop me an email on j@guardianship.com, then I can get back to them.

Nice and easy. jay@goodguardianship.com.

Yeah.

Brilliant. Jay G. Got it right, didn't I?

did that time. Yeah.

Thank you so much for joining me on The Yappy Hour, powered by Yappily. I've absolutely loved this episode and I know our listeners will too. Thank you so much for joining me and we'll get you on again soon.

Thank so much for having me. Really enjoyed

You are welcome. You are most welcome. See you soon.

Byebye.

What a brilliant conversation with Jay goin. Here are some key takeaways from today's episode. Number one, sensitive and complex dogs process the world differently. This isn't about being difficult, it's about how they experience and respond to their environment. Number two, trust and safety are the foundation for progress. A dog who feels safe is more likely to learn, grow, and build confidence. Number three, fixing isn't the goal. Understanding is when we stop focusing on fixing behaviours and start meeting the needs of our dogs, everything changes. Number four, every dog's journey is unique. Comparison is unhelpful. What matters is what works for your individual dog. Jay, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and passion with us today and to all our listeners. If you want to learn more, check out good guardianship and Jay's book, building the Bond for expert insights on supporting your dog. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a review, share it with a fellow dog parent, and subscribe so you never miss an episode of the yappy hour. Thanks for listening, and I'll see you next time.