Hi and welcome to the Animal Welfare Junction. This is your host Dr. G and our music is written and produced by Mike Sullivan. So this is episode number 39, the first episode of 2024, and it's been a whole year since I started this podcast. So before I introduce our guest for today, I wanted to say thank you to everyone who has been following, rating, and sharing the podcast. Because right now, as of this recording, we are just over 5, 700 episodes downloaded. So far better outcome than we expected when I took the leap into this podcast hosting. So I want to say thank you. And I'm really grateful for everybody that listens. I hope that it's informative and relevant. So let's get started. Today's guest is another Dr. G. So Dr. Jonathan

Gonzalez. Yes. Yes. I'm really, really happy to be the first guest of the year and another Dr. G. So it's easy to. to say Dr. G to each other. And even though we met recently, it's like we, you know, we can, uh, make it pretty, pretty easy to, to have this conversation today. And I'm pretty excited. And I appreciate the invite. No worries.

I'm really happy and excited and proud to have you here because you're another Puertorro, right? You're from Puerto

Rico. Exactly. Yep. We're, we're both from the same place and I know you've done some work there. And You know, we always, uh, keep that in, in, in our hearts, you know,

so. Yeah, I always tell people that it's like People from Puerto Rico are, are never like strangers, right? You meet somebody from Puerto Rico and it's like, you automatically feel that there's, there's a bond. So like between the language and, and everything. So, so knowing the

places and knowing what it looks like and knowing, you know, and the food, food. Yeah. I think that's a instant bond, you know?

Yeah. So let's start first by sharing with our listeners, kind of what led you to become a veterinarian, like the path that brought you where you are today.

So I always kind of bring up the same story ever since I was little, I had, I always wanted to have animals. I think a lot of us started that way. And when they got sick, I wondered why I wondered how to make them better. I tried to prevent from them dying, of course, you know, or being sick and how to do my best to get them better. And I guess that's where the curiosity started. And I just had really good. Coaxing and, um, really good teachers and my mom was a, a, a biology teacher, so she always pushed me to, to that side of things because she saw I, I liked it since, you know, I could remember. So, between that and, and good teachers and, and good education, I ended up, um, going to, to vet school at Ross University. Um, so. I lived in Puerto Rico that whole time. So I went to, school in Miramar. It's, uh, Perpetuo Socorro. And then I did my undergrad at, uh, the University of Puerto Rico in Mayagüez, where I did, um, like an animal production undergrad, and then I ended up in St. Kitts and, and Ross University. So that's kind of how I, I, you know, ended up in vet school and kind of like, it's always been a, what I wanted to be and what I wanted to do. And, you know, I've been a vet now 15 years, so between different experiences, a lot of good mentorship and, and. Um, you know, hard experiences to make you grow, I think, out of all of that together, I think, um, you know, that's how I ended up where I'm at and, and the things that I believe in and the things that I talk about and, and like share with other vets and would like everybody to kind of have a little, put a little thought into it. Um, you know, it, it, it kind of comes from all of that from when I was little, all the way through all what I've learned in life to where I'm at now. So.

Cool. And we keep learning every day, right?

Yes. Correct. Yep.

And you're in Texas now. Is that right?

Yeah. So I'm in Angleton, Texas. I'm practicing in that same town with Dr. Raymond Miller, uh, at the veterinary medical center of the Gulf coast. And I've been there only a month. Um, but I've known him for a long time. I know he would be a good fit and we're doing pretty good. Pretty good medicine together. So I'm very happy right now to, you know, do what I love and have a lot of say and kind of, you know, kind of between me and him kind of dictate the medicine and how we do things in the culture and having a pretty tight ship and no outside, you know, influence is really good for us right now. So running a good, good clinic and helping a lot of people. Which is what we like doing the best, right?

Right. And because I know that, like, me personally, I like emergency and I like high volume sterilization. Like, I, I don't It's not that I don't like my patients, I don't like spending time with patients or, or their owners, but I'm kind of a, a go go go type person. And I know from what I, from what I have read from your posts, if I feel like you are more of a follow somebody throughout the lifetime of a pet, right, would that, would that describe you best?

Yes. Um, absolutely. I, I, I think it comes from watching, you know, veterinarians that are now, um, you know, in their seventies, uh, still practicing medicine, right. People that absolutely love, love their job and, and, you know, that was their passion the whole time. So, um, I think, I think a lot of that comes from that mentorship, you know. Uh, where I saw them treat dogs from when they were puppies, like their kids dogs or grandchildren's dogs, you know, through the years. So they kind of became part of the family. They became the family doctor, um, which is kind of the vision I had as a kid of what veterinarians should be, you know, kind of like the family doctor kind of helping out, you know, with the pets and, and, uh, somebody they could trust and, and kind of guide them through, through the pet's life, you know.

That's really, that's really cool that you bring that up because I interviewed Dr. Michael Blackwell a few months ago about the whole concept of One Health. And we were talking about how veterinarians need to be part of the family practice, right? So you have the pediatricians and the general practitioners and everything else, but then you have the veterinarians because animals are part of the family. So as veterinarians, we have to take care of the four legged family members while the rest of the medical team take care of everybody else. Right. It's just one more specialty.

Yeah. Sometimes that's their only kid, you know, or that's their only other than themselves or their partner or whatever the, that's the only other creature that they need to care for. So we become that person that. Not only treats the dog and, you know, we do our job, but we'll calm their moments of stress and anxiety over that. So I know, especially the last two years, a lot of first, I saw a lot of first time owners, a lot of puppy owners and first time pet parents, how that, you know, we want to call them now too, I'm trying so that, you know, I just noticed that, that we just are a lot of, of it is calming them down, you know, and kind of trying to, to have that connection and gain that trust. Um, you know, and become part of their circle, you know, they kind of see, they were probably become a household name, you know, if they're, that's their kid or, you know, their dog is a big part of their family, even when they have children, so just another part of the family. So, we just become like, you know, they talk about, we talk about our physician sometimes at home. Or pediatricians, so we become part of that. And I want, I want to, I want to kind of keep that in our, in our, um, you know, field and, and I don't want to lose that. I don't want to, I don't want veterinarians to become just another tool of, getting things done and just kind of, doing whatever it takes just to solve the problem and keep going. Right.

Yeah, yeah, because I, I like how you bring it up as far as, you know, how people have animals and some people have them instead of children and they're their children. It's like being a first time parent, like when I had my, my son, my sister has kids, so I knew about kids and stuff, but it's a completely different experience having your own kid. And it's a completely different experience when I went from owning animals growing up. To going to college and having a cat by myself. And now this thing I'm responsible for it. Right. So we have to work with the, as you say, the pet parents to make sure that, that we're helping them help their animals. So we can't expect people to just know.

And yeah, yeah. Or we can't expect to everybody be the same either. Like you're going to have the people that you kind of feel like they should care more. Yeah. And then the people that. Sometimes you feel like you, they're caring too much, but I think we should keep that to ourselves and kind of have the same reaction, the same demeanor and kind of bring them to the facts and bring them to what needs to be done and hear them out and just, you know, kind of solve that problem and it we cannot kind of gauge our appointments by how we feel but more about how the client feels and the medical problem they're bringing up, you know, and then kind of start there and if you find other things and go on that route also but I think making that connection with the people is important to get that trust.

Yeah, so that's the main reason I invited you here today is because, you know, this is something that I rant almost every day with my, with my staff. And it's because it's unfortunately so strong in the animal welfare world. The common saying that I work with animals because I hate people, I work with animals because people suck or people are stupid. And there's just so much judgmental and, and hatred towards humans in general. And, and, and sometimes not, not really based on anything. So what are, what are your, your thoughts on, on this comment, as far as I work with animals because I hate people.

Yeah. So, you know, as leaders, we, we kind of set the example on that. So, you know, we're the first people that need to kind of show the rest of the staff, how, how we have to manage people's behaviors and clients reactions to what we do, and they're not always going to follow our advice. And, you know, they're not always going to do what we want them to do. And as professionals, um, we chose to feel that, you know, of course, we want to help the animals. We love a lot of us love the science, but our patients have a parent that is different than a child's parent, right? Because they're both human. Now we have a creature that can't talk that it's a different kind of relationship. Right? So, I feel like in that regards, we, we need to put that in perspective and kind of. Understand where they're coming from and understand that we need to communicate with that person and include them in that circle and that team to make that pet better and to end up achieving that common goal of treating pets and make them better and the medicine. Right? So you can still be very, very medicine oriented, but at the same time, put it in perspective from the owner's point of view and trade that as well. Right? And I think the medical success will be better. If you establish that trust initially with the person and kind of, you know, hear them out, see what their problems are, don't think things personal, you know, sometimes wait, if they react a certain way, wait a few seconds, let them vent. And then if there's a problem I think what I've done too and I've learned not to, and I try not to is to come out of rooms and make comments or behave a certain way that sets up a cascade of behavior and the rest of the team. Um, sometimes the. You know, things are, are heavier or busy and, and if we start having that kind of, um, vibe, then the rest of the people are going to follow. Right. And, and if we were the one saying, oh, so and so, or their pet is like this, or their person's like that, then people can, can feel that. Right. And, and they can, someone's hear it. And then the, the pets react to that too. So it's, I've heard a lot of people come from other clinics and kind of tell me they felt a certain way, the pets felt a certain way, and some people disregard that. Um, like, almost like, yeah, the dog didn't know, like, the dog's just reacting like that because it's scared. But I think there's a little bit of a connection that we need to have with those pets, to avoid that behavior and that perception from the owner, too. Right, so.

Yeah, it's like people, if people feel judged, they may not make the right decisions or they may not be straightforward and tell you the right things, like they may feel that they can't tell you. You know, well, I only feed my dog once a day because you're going to judge me and then you don't have the, and then you don't have the opportunity to explain this is why it's best to feed them twice a day, you know, like having a, a judgmental attitude can put 'em in a defensive in a way that then you can't really help the pet. And if you lose the trust from that owner, I mean, it's kind of game over,

right? Yeah. Then you cannot achieve the magical success that you would with the trust from them. So I think that's where. You know, you have to achieve that initial relationship, but also you have to kind of have the spectrum of care, um, and kind of go into it, not knowing exactly what would you want to do with this case. Right off the bat, you have to kind of go in with an open mind of spectrum of care and kind of dictate the medicine and tailor it to the person. Um, because I see a lot of frustration with the client with that treatment plan that wasn't approved that I wanted to do as a doctor. And then that's where the judgment comes in. Right? So, I think coming in with the expectation of, okay, maybe they're not going to do everything I want to do. But I still want to, I want to help this pet so within the, within the scope of what they can do, then let's do our best without, making them the, the, the bad person or being antagonistic, right? Because they, they feel that too. I mean, as soon as, as soon as they feel antagonism, there's a lot of that nowadays, there's a lot of defensive behavior with people. So if they feel a little bit of that, um, you might. You might lose them, you know, pretty quickly. So you have to be open to, to kind of go in by what they want to do a little bit and let them kind of hear them out to what they would do or they would like to do and not just say, you know, Oh, people think they're vets or I don't like people to say, don't let me do my job. Right. Just kind of, kind of let them feel like they have a little bit of control over the situation sometimes, you know. So I think a lot of the, I hate people thing comes from that lack of ability to do what, what we want and kind of them trying to control. And then we just become like kind of antagonistic with each other. Yeah.

Yeah. I think we, we get into that, into that idea of gold standard of care, what we think should be done. And then if somebody doesn't agree with what should be done or doesn't do what should be, what we think should be done. Then they're automatically a bad owner or a irresponsible person. And we have to, we have to think about all the different things. You know, I try to practice within what, within the concept of cultural competence, right? Cause there's a lot of different things that, that come to play when you're trying to do a treatment plan. There's the the finances of the owner. There's the capabilities of the owner There's even the the religious cultural background everything. I mean, there's a lot of stuff that comes into play So we have to we have to understand we have to listen and then we have to kind of work with Work with what we have to be able to do the best that we can with what we got. I did have to see

that effort, you know, they have to see that we're making an effort to do the best we can with what they have and instead of feeling like, Oh, no, that's all you can do then. No, I cannot see you. So I that's a good point.

Yeah. And it's like, you know, they, they are. They're paying for the care of their pet. So they're kind of paying us to to do a job to take care of their animal to offer a service. So we have to understand that when the when they come into to bring their pet, they're they're coming in and they're asking. And it doesn't mean that we wish. Need to allow people to use us and abuse us and and berate us and everything else. That's not what I'm talking about. But what I'm talking about is that we are offering a service of healthcare and then we need to try to figure out what's the best way that we can service this person that came in. I don't, I don't believe in the, in the old, the customer's always right because the customer's not always right. But, but I think that we have shifted that balance too much from the customer's always right to the customer's always wrong.

Yeah, that's a good point. I think it's a natural reaction of noticing that customers get away with things because they're always right. And then you put a stop to it. Um, and then, yeah, like you said, it's just become the other extreme too. We're, we're the professionals. We tell you what to do. You don't want to do it my way. Then you have to see somebody else. And I think that defeats the purpose of what we want to do. And, and, you know, I think going back to where we're from, I think. And seeing it, uh, and kind of growing up around it, you know, where people try to do what they could and, and you kind of, you know, feel compassion for them. You, you feel like they, they love their animal and, and, and, you know, you, you're gonna, you're gonna help them with what, what the abilities they have, right? Like you've done work in Puerto Rico, you've done, you know, that people love their pets and they're gonna, they're gonna do their best with, with spaying, neutering, vaccinations, you know, some, as much as they can. Even through the judgment of, Oh, you're doing it at a, at a. You know, whatever clinic, you're not doing it with a vet or well, you know, that's what they can do. And we're there to help them do that as well. We have to be open to, you know, kind of being helped to them and not being strict about this, the, the. You know, environment of where we do those surgeries or where we practice that medicine, right? So, you know, I, I think that's part of, of helping the people and, and kind of understanding the people and not judging, you know, sometimes I've seen, oh, they get their vaccines at the here or they get their vaccines here and now the dogs sick and now they want to see us. So, yeah, okay, that's, that's okay, they do what they can with their vaccines, they get their vaccines done, that's better than not, not doing anything and then you kind of, you know, sometimes you have to kind of help the staff, the younger vets get over that hump of that, you know, man, like they should be coming here, they should be doing this, you know, textbook care, well, you know, they, they did what they could and now they're here for us to help them and instead of, you know, saying, well, you should have been here, now your dog has heartworms. Uh, because you got donated medicine. Uh, well, let's go forward and help you now. Right? And, and kind of bring that, that energy to the staff too. Like, hey, guys, you know, I know it's, it sucks that they did this, but now we need to help the dog and, and try and get the owner back. Um, and, and make them feel like they're part of the team and they're going to help their dog and we're going to be back to normal. So, yeah,

sometimes people are like staff members and like you say, younger vets and stuff. They're so intent on punishing the person for doing something that they don't agree with, that they forget that the one that is suffering is the animal, right? It's like, well. For example, I work in, in high volume sterilization and sometimes there'll be a cat that licks the incision and it has a little bit of an infection and then the person wants to go to another vet because we're not available that day and the vet is like, well, you didn't have it done here, so we can't help you. Yeah, right. Why are, why are we like that? Right? Like take care of the cat. It's like, you're going to let the cat have an infection for an extra couple of days when all you had to do was look at it and clean it up and give him some antibiotics just because you're mad at the owner, because. You didn't do the surgery and they, they couldn't afford it. So they went somewhere else. Like, we have to be more open minded than that.

That's exactly it. And I think then that kind of sometimes puts a guilt in the owner for having done it there. And then you're kind of telling them they did the wrong thing. And then it puts a veterinarian that did the surgery in a weird spot. Because now they, they, they're in light of, you know, I shouldn't have done it with them. And then, you know, it's just, I, I think we should focus on the problem and the solution and kinda, kinda, you know, letting things go and, and, and not, not causing more, more friction than, than there is already. Right. You know, you have a right owner that's upset, you know, they have an, an infection and, and then you're adding to it. You know, I, I've heard things like, uh, you know, if your vet didn't do this and if you hadn't come here and you hadn't done this, your dog would have died, you know, and comments like that, I think, you know, just don't help, um, our, our industry as, as, as a team, you know. And I think it creates a lot of the lack of trust in, in, in clients with, with us too. Think part of the people things, other vets, right? And other, um, you know, people that work in the field, I think we need to be compassionate with them as well. Yeah.

Like professional courtesy and stuff like that. Right. Like, and it doesn't mean like if somebody does something wrong, I'm not going to be like, Oh no, everything's okay, but there's a difference between, you know, pointing out somebody did something maliciously inappropriate to complications happen. You know, it's, it's, it happens with any surgery. It happens with us when we go to the, when, with the doctor and, and we're not licking our stitches. Right. We're not, we're not running around. And, and stuff. So animals have a much higher rate of risk and complications. So yeah, as veterinarians, we need to work together, not, not work apart. Because what, what I also see happening is that if, you know, if somebody comes to me because they need help and then something happens and then they go somewhere else and that person trash, trashes what I have done, the clients usually actually are mad at that vet because they feel that then it becomes all about the money. Like that vet is mad because I didn't give them my money. Uh, they're not gonna, they're not gonna look bad on me, like I'm trying to help them. So it, you know, you're, it, it, it comes back at

you. Yeah. Yeah. No, I've seen that, you know, and, and, uh, I, I think that the guilt sometimes of telling them that, well, you're not doing all of this. So your pet is going to, something bad is going to happen to your pet and putting them in their head. And, you know, we, we have to be careful with the people's emotions and, and how they feel. And yeah, if. I think we need to put in perspective that for us, it's a room and it's an appointment and we have a bunch of them in a day, but for them, it's a vet visit that they'll, they're, they're never going to forget. You know, they, they don't go to the vet often. In a year, they're gonna remember every one of those visits. So I think that all the interactions, all the body language, I think it's important nowadays to kind of, kind of keep that relationship as a important, you know, bond and, and, uh, making them want to see the veterinarian and want to bring their pets in to see you and kind of have that. Family doctor feel, you know, like you bring your kid to the pediatrician and kind of have the same, the same, uh, perspective and, and, and trust, you know, and then the same bond with the person. Yeah,

you know, I work, I do forensics, so I see horrible things that people do to animals intentionally, but, and, and those people do suck. people that are animal cruelty. They're horrible. Uh, but there's also a difference between intentional and unintentional neglect. And there are people that commit unintentional neglect because they can't afford things, because they don't have access to care, and sometimes because they just don't know. And it is our job to, to help provide those things, really eliminate barriers to care, um, eliminate, especially the easiest one is barrier to education. Once that client is in your room, they're right there. It's your time to, to help them. There's a lot of people that. I mean, best example would be when I have assistants or technicians, uh, that will say, Oh my God, that person is using the wrong flea medication. Like that's so stupid. Right. But you didn't know that five years ago, right? Before you started working here, you didn't know that, that those over the counter things were toxic to cats, for instance. So you came in, you learn, and now you're an advocate for animals because you know, So we can take the time to educate people. So, you know, if we can take. I, I, I believe, I can't remember the numbers exactly, but it's a huge amount of like a very large percentage of animals that are neglected that is unintentional. So if we can take care of that, it's a huge difference in the lives of animals, just the quality of life of the animals and the quality of life of their owners.

Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. And, and, you know, that's where I think we, we have to sometimes not, not be quiet because I think early in my career, I'd be quiet about those. Those, uh, interactions and those reactions from our staff, and I would let it go. And I think as leaders, we, we, you know, we need to find a way to be able to bring those things up and be able to talk to our staff about that in a moment that without disrupting the flow of the day and changing the, the energy of the day, right? Where do you have an open relationship on a daily basis enough to be like, Hey, to be able to say what you just said, for example, in the moment, like, Hey. You didn't know that and, and, and we need to be compassionate with them. And, and, you know, we're here to help them and make that make that the normal interaction with them. And I think that that little by little, we, we as leaders seem to change that, right? It's not going to come from the staff. Um, because they're, you know, I think that they feel the stress in a different way than we do. Um, I think it's not that it's more or less, I think it's just this different, it's a different day. I was a technician before I was a doctor. I, I know how, kind of how it feels. I've never been like a receptionist type person, but at least I know how the technicians felt in the day I worked as one. So, you know, I kind of, I kind of. Like to feel like everybody's kind of not like I'm the doctor. I have more stress than you, you know And you kind of like put everybody on the same plane to then be able to talk to each other as human beings that way and kind of you know, have a Leadership role that it's also more easygoing and less of a you know Punishing type thing and I think that's a way to get a better reaction from the staff. Yeah, I'm

super lucky with the people that I have working with me, right? And I don't say working for me, I say working with me because we're a team and, and it's, it's about empowering. Um, and I'm not, I'm not an easy boss. I'm a very bossy boss, but I'm a Puerto Rican woman. What can I say? Right. But, uh, but, but we have a really great relationship. Like we talk and we joke around and whatever, but when it's time to work, it's time to work, but I empower them within the capabilities of their license for my technicians. I have four veterinary technicians, licensed technicians and, and they know enough. And I trust them enough for them to educate the clients, right? So when an animal has a skin infection, they can call and they can discuss that with them. And they discuss it in a really compassionate way. And they explain to them, this is what we need to do and why we need to do it. And they take their time. And I mean, we're seeing 30 to 50 animals in a day in a high volume clinic, but yet whenever an animal. You know, a pet owner needs the time to have something explained, they take the time to explain it, just to develop that, that trust and, and that, so, you know, I think that utilizing, utilizing Staff appropriately, educating them appropriately, and helping them be compassionate can even eliminate some of the compassion fatigue that so many people are feeling, right?

Yeah, that's true. And, and, and not, not use it as a curtain to hide behind, right? Because, you know, we, we kind of use the staff to, all right, here, tell them this, and I'm back here, and then kind of wait and see what happens, right? You have to kind of, uh, set them up for, for success too. Um, when they have those conversations with the owners and, you know, uh, build that confidence for them to, to be able to do that and, and then rely on them. And then it empowers them to feel good enough at that point. So, you know, I think, I think, I think having that, that bond with the, with the staff is important and, and make them feel that. They can educate the clients and, and, uh, take the, the time and, and the, the, you know, the, the care to, to talk to them like a friend or a family member. And when you look at the time when you actually look at most phones have like a little clock on them. It's like three minutes, two minutes, and you have explained to the owner, how to treat for diabetes in three minutes. And you actually took your time without rushing, you know, and, and it's not a big deal and then the technicians can maybe hear you and you can train them to do the same thing and then, you know, dealing with people becomes a little easier.

Yeah, yeah, I know that actually With with general practice and like I have worked in general practice and I just I just personally can't do it because again I'm just like go but we we get clients that well, actually Perfect example. The other day, we had somebody that came in with her cats and her cats had ear mites and she had been given some medication and stuff, but the cats still had ear mites. So she had taken the cats to the vet. She had had an hour appointment with three of her cats and the cats were still having problems. And my technician just took, you know, a couple of minutes to say, Hey, we can go ahead and do an ear clean for, for them while they're sedated. And then we can do this and we can do that. And the owner was so thankful. about how thorough the technician was in explaining it. And the fact that they were offering, I can, I can help you get things started. I can help you with an ear clean. The owner said, nobody ever told me that they could clean the ears. They just gave me medication for it. So the value of a couple of minutes. Right. Yeah, a couple of minutes of somebody listening to the concerns of the client and then answering those concerns because yeah, the cat needs something, but what does the owner also need? What does the owner need to be able to help the cat? And I'm super thankful and lucky that my staff, all of my staff members. Take the time to do that to listen to the question to answer the question to take the time and, you know, and and follow through, even though we're not a general practice, they're kind of, you know, giving that that care,

right? It's like connecting the dots right from the diagnosis to the plan, but then that line you're throwing, you have to make sure that lines going to connect those thoughts right and and that's where the technicians can help bridge that gap of communication of how to treat that better and. You know, and, and, and again, not, not use it as a curtain or as a lazy way to be out of the, of the way, but as a way to be available for the more, um, you know, the more doctor like questions and the things that we care about more, the things that we, we enjoy better. Uh, in that way, like there's a

difference between utilization and abuse,

right? Correct. Correct. And I think part of like, I hate people. I don't like working with people is because maybe the veterinarians are being put in situations that they shouldn't be in, you know, like cleaning the cats here, maybe, you know, empower your technicians to do it. And then maybe you're there to explain what you found, show them a picture of it and do the things that you enjoy doing. And I think that's up to us individually to create that environment. Yeah,

I did a I did a poll on social media just to kind of get an idea of the attitudes of people and I found out from from the votes and and one of the things though is that this is a little bit of a biased poll because we can tell who is who is voting. So I think that some people may not be. completely willing to be honest with it. But still about 15 percent of people that voted say that they hate people period. Right. And then about 47 percent though said that they love both people and animals, which was, which honestly was a higher amount that I expected. And it was kind of nice, but yeah, there's, there's still at least 15 percent of people that are like, You know, screw the people. I just want to, I just want to deal with the animals and I think that, you know, I think that some of that comes from, again, like the compassion fatigue that comes from working with animals and stuff. I think that the angry clients, the, the people that get mad. Are louder, they're really quick to come and reply, review, you know, if you have, if you're in a room and you're with somebody that is pissed off about what you did or didn't do, or they wanted antibiotics and you told them it doesn't need antibiotics and they get mad as soon as they leave the door, they're going to get on their phone and they're going to start and go to Google and Yelp and Facebook and everywhere and leave you a bad review. But when you go into that room and you have that client that is really thankful and really grateful, that person's going to go home and they're going to tell their family, they're going to tell their friends, they're going to tell a bunch of people, but it's not gonna, you don't necessarily hear that back. So I think that part of our compassion fatigue and part of it is that we're taking too personally the thoughts of the, of the few that we can not help or that can't be helped. And we're letting them,

you know, I think that, I think it, it needs to be normalized as part of our field and part of our profession that it's going to happen. And, and make it, we cannot avoid that from happening. It's just part of the nature of what we do and people's feelings. And we need to be ready to understand that. And there's space for that 15%. I think there's space, there's space for them. Uh, I think, but eventually you're going to deal with other people, right? If you're a radiologist, you need to talk to the owner. Sometimes you need to talk to their vets. You know, you can type a report, but you can get a phone call too, and you need to be able to communicate and so I think schools are doing better and, you know, enrolling students that are good at communicating and they are kind of helping them achieve that because I didn't start out as the best communicator. I had really good mentors that I stole things from, like little lines they said, little jokes, little things that they did with the dogs, how little body language things that I, I kind of learned as I went, you know, and, and I think, I think students need to be aware that when they graduate, they're going to make mistakes. Things are going to happen, they're going to be embarrassed, you know, owners are going to be angry. There's, they're going to slam doors and, you know, it's, it's kind of like expecting that that might happen one day and, and not blame yourself for it. And, and I was lucky. I had those mentors to bring up those things with them. I'm just like, yeah, that's going to happen. It's, you know, you just haven't been practicing long enough. Right. Stuff like that. Right. So, you know, it, it kinda kind of prepare the, the students and the new grads to, to have that. And, and I think what's happening, there's a little bit of, of, um, you know, oh, you have a license here, here's a hospital. And, and you know, there, there's a lot to it, you know, for, for me to be at the point where I think I could handle the hospital, it took eight, 10 years. Um, you know, five years to really handle the medicine. Right? So you can get a new grad and you can. Some of them are very smart. They're really, you know, I've seen new guys that are very well, um, versed and very mature, um, and, and very competent, but I see a lot of that. And it's a little pushy to, to give a clinic to a new grad and, and leave them alone for a day and kind of let them. handle the day, because people, people notice, people notice that, um, you know, they don't have the experience. They're a little anxious, nervous about things. They, they might be sometimes saying too much to clients and, and it looks funny. Uh, I, I think as we have a little more experience, we kind of like, kind of trim down the, the wording and trim down the, our thoughts, our, our, our diagnoses and our thoughts and their expectations. And, and, you know, it just goes, it goes different. So. Uh, I think it's good for new grads to be around vets that have been around a little longer before having that like first time clinic because I think that says them to not like people either, right? Right.

And, and yeah, and having the confidence, like having the confidence, because if you go into a room and, and you sound like you're asking and not telling, then that also also creates an issue with the, with the pet owner. If they come in and they're asking you questions and you're kind of like looking around and you're like, oh, well, uh, I think then they're not going to trust what, what you're going to say or what you're going to recommend as much as if you come in and you're confident and you, and you know, and even if you don't know multiple times, I mean, I've been in practice for a long time and. And I will say to somebody, you know what? I'm not sure about that. Let me do some research and I'll get back to you. And it's that honesty of, no, I don't know everything, but I know where to look it up. And I will find out and I will get back to you.

Yeah. And, and having that ability of saying, well, I've seen this before, or I've done this, you know, and, and as a new grad, you don't have that. And I think that creates a little bit of anxiety. And, you know, I think the, the environment in school is very protected in terms of the client and the students. So that barrier is taken away very abruptly. You know, when they start in real life and, and I didn't have that in my case, I had real good mentors and a real good environment of learning. And, and, you know, so I, I think from my experience, I think that's really key to create confident veterinarians that end up liking people, uh, and maybe from, you know, those 15%, maybe some of them. will end up liking people if they have the right mentorship and the right tools to learn how to deal with the awkward, weird situations that you don't, nobody wants to deal with. Yeah.

I used to have, uh, I have a lot of like social anxiety. So I would be concerned about if I go into a room and that person gets mad or, you know, can I defuse a situation or what's going to happen? And then I realized that that person is just as scared as I am. And that empowered me. Right. As soon as I realized that the person that I'm talking to. It's not necessarily, they don't necessarily feel that they're above me, stronger than me, or more powerful than me. So why should I just shrink myself before getting into that situation? And that helped me a lot. And even though I still have some social anxiety, I can go into a room and I can say what I need to say because I feel very confident about what I'm doing. Right. So how would you say like if you have a if you have a pet owner, because one of the things that that some people in animal welfare don't don't seem to comprehend is that when people are stressed, you get fight or flight. So their animal is injured, their animal is sick, something happened, you know, so especially in emergency urgent care type situations, they come in and they're, they're frustrated, and they're scared, and they may be belligerent, but they're not Taking it out on you. They're taking it out on just the world, like everything. So, what would you say to people as far as dealing with somebody that, that comes in that is just angry because their pet is sick or,

or injured? I think, you know, a lot, a lot comes from human medicine. You know, I think a lot of the, first of all, separating that injured pet from the owner. I think that, that, and before you do that, I think it depends on the person you have to create. Trust and confidence. You can't just like grab the dog and take it away. Sometimes you have to see some people will give you the dog and then you, you know, you can run. Some people hold, hold their dogs and don't let you hold it. And you can like pry, like pry it from them. So, you know, that initial interaction of separating the dog from the person has to be very, very careful, carefully done. But I think it's important to separate that, that dog or that patient or cat or patient from the owner. Um, and then having a person that is very compassionate, experienced, and, you know, dealing with that kind of situation, have that person maybe be the one talking to them. Um, sometimes they need the veterinarian to be there as the staff works on the dog initially. Um, sometimes I've seen people that kind of stand there kind of like, what are you doing here? Go treat my dog, right? So, I think in a big scheme of things. It's to treat each situation individually as a different thing and rather than have a plan, observe and look what's happening, kind of like read the room, read the patient, see how much of an emergency it is. Sometimes the person is acting like it's, you know, and you, there's certain things we can look at, you know, the BAR part of our exam. Right. If you see a dog in a mentally depressed state, you know, you know, you know, right away, you need to do more. If you see the mental state, it's not as bad. You have time to talk to your owner a little bit more. And so I think you have to read each situation individually. I think if you're not feeling confident enough, you have to also as a professional separate yourself from that client. And go to your job and kind of focus on the pet. If you're, if you're standing there thinking about the pet and you're talking to the person, people notice that, I think, too. You have to, you know, kind of let them know like, hey, Mrs. So and so, I know you need to talk to me about what happened, but I need to go see your pet real quick. So kind of like be, be in control, you know, observe, read the room, be in control, and then, you know, keep calm, try, you know, keep, remember that you're the leader in that room and you have to set the example of how to, you're going to act in that moment. So, I think that initial interaction is really important. And, and also if it depends on the client, if you have established trust before, if they know who you are, if you know, you've seen them forever, you know what to do, you know, and then the whole treatment plan becomes easier and you have to kind of tailor the situation to each specific patient and client. Yeah, I think

that, uh, you know, one of the, one of the biggest errors that I see people make is that a client comes in and the client is upset and the client comes in and it's like, you know, like, you gotta take care of my animal right now. And the person behind the desk, instead of saying, Hey, tell me what's happening. They go, okay, no, stop. I need you to calm down. Right? And it's like, okay, no, now, now we have two people just escalating and escalating and

escalating. I don't know that there's that's I've ever seen that work. When you tell a human being to calm down to stop. I don't think that's ever worked ever.

Right. It's like completely opposite.

Yeah. Yeah. So I agree. Yeah.

No, exactly. So it's, but, but it's a reaction, right? Somebody comes at you aggressively and then our reaction is to take defense. And it's like, if, if we take the time to say. Okay, tell me what's happening and they're and they're still up here know that this happened and it just needs to be taken care of. Hey, I'm going to work to get you taken care of as soon as possible. I just need to get things, you know, so that I can, I can move you the way that it needs to be moved. And you notice that that person just deescalates little by little just comes down like you need to let them vent. And again, it's not allowing people to abuse you, like if that person comes in and starts calling you name and insulting you and threatening you, then no, that's not what I'm talking about. But that's probably the 1%. It's like the majority of people are just, are just upset, but not really like they don't want to fight you. They just want their pet taken

care of. And I think as time goes by, you learn to be like, Hey, listen, I'm here to help and you keep mentioning the word help, right? It's one thing that I like I've learned with time to tell them I want to help you. I want to help your pet I think that somebody that's offering help, it's hard to be angry at that person, right? So you kind of need to bring them down from that anger and bring them back to reality by saying, Hey, I'm here to help. I want to help. And if, if, if, if you get angered to that, then something's not right. And I think you should separate yourself from that situation at that point and have a plan for when that happens. Um, because it gets to a point where, you know, you're saying everything, you know, to say you're explaining everything you're trying to explain. Sometimes there's a barrier that cannot be crossed and a different staff member comes in and it's a different scenario, different interaction, different. You know, and who knows why it's just a different person coming in, right? And there might be a different connection, different vibe, different energy, and then things change. So, you know, and, and having a plan ready for those situations, I think it's important. Yeah. I

actually, it's funny that you said, cause I was watching one of those border patrol shows, right? And there was this, and there was this girl that is talking to somebody and this person, this guy is just. angry at her and just yelling at her and she's trying to explain everything. So then she leaves and one of her co workers comes over to talk and he's saying exactly the same thing. But at that point, the person feels heard, right? And it's just because it's a second person. So when they're talking, the second person knows what to expect. Right? Like she went to the back and she said, this guy is pissed because we took this away from him and we told him that he can't keep it and now he's going to have a fine. So this guy comes over and it's explained like, listen, man, this is why we do our job and this is whatever. And the, and the guy was like, okay, well, you know, you're, you're really kind, you're really nice. You're explaining everything to me. She was just horrible to me or not. And it's exactly the same conversation. It's exactly the same thing. It's just two different people. You just gave them time to deescalate. You, you cannot make somebody come down and that's okay. Like we, we got to understand that sometimes we're not it and we got to get somebody else and have somebody else be it. Yeah,

and I don't, not only our staff, but a family member, a person that's with them, you know, I'm sure, you know, I'll be careful with saying it, but there's two people in the room and there's one that you connect with better. And maybe you can have that, that connection and drive that person to have the other person feel better. Right. And, and there's like, like body language and eye contact that can help you kind of get that other person. To help you with their spouse or whatever their partner. Right. Right. So, uh, that, that, that's another ally in that room to help you deescalate the situation. Um, you know, and sometimes they offer that, say, Hey dog, I think she should go to, or he should go, right. Or whatever. Um, and, and then we can talk or whatever. So, right. And, and also I, I, one more thing, sorry, that I just remember that I think it's important. So much. You're not going to solve that conflict that day. Okay. Uh, sometimes you have a conflict, you have a situation, sometimes you have to give it a few days, you know, give it a week, and that person that maybe acted a certain way, a week later, a month later, is going to be a completely different person, and it's going to do everything you want to do, and whatever. So, you know, we have to be patient as well. Yeah, I think that when

we're too pushy, people don't see it as Don't see it necessarily as we're trying to do the best for that pet at this time. They see it as you're trying to sell me something because unfortunately, I mean, we are, we are there to help the animals and we're there to provide health, but there is a, there's a price tag attached to it. And we have to be really careful with how we are presenting ourselves and how we are offering things because we don't want to be selling things. We want to be You know, giving good care to, to that patient to develop that

trust, correct, correct. And, and, you know, when, when we establish that trust and we can give that care and that's not just up to us. And I think the anxiety goes away when we know the world is not, it's not up to us to fix the world and fix everything that happens every day and every single case, you know, and I think that's part of it too. So I think we need to rely on people.

Yeah, and you know, with what I do, because it's high volume and stuff, like even when we do wellness clinics, they're not the same as if somebody brings you a dog versus they bring me a dog. When they bring me a dog, it's like a quick, quick exam, vaccines, next. Whereas with you, they have the time or whatever. So every now and then somebody will come to me and say that they're unhappy with my service. Because they want somebody to come and talk to them and sit with them in a room and everything else. And I'm not offended by it. It's like, I understand, I understand what you need. We are not what you need, right? So, you know, these are other places that can give you what you

need. They, they see that you're a veterinarian, so they maybe expect, and that expectation, you know, needs to maybe establish after the first time. You know, and, and same with us, you know, in general practice, sometimes they come with the expectation of you coming in, giving the dog a shot and leaving, right. And because they haven't been to a vet in 20 years and that's what they saw before. And now you have this like person coming in to weigh the dog, take vitals and get a history and then they kind of like, so you, you, I think we sometimes need to create expectations of how the visit is going to go from the beginning. You know, and kind of maybe at the high volume clinics, we like, Hey, this is just a quick exam. If you have concerns, you probably should see your vet. And even, even you can, we can try and do everything we can and things are still going to happen. So I think the, the umbrella expectation is that things are going to happen once in a while. And when they happen, it's how we react to how they, to what happens, not, not, you know, what happens or the situation we're in, but how we're going to fix it and not, not blaming anybody or blaming what, but how we're going to fix it as a team, like you said.

Yeah, we gotta, yeah, we gotta focus forward, right, because we just, it's part of that whole compassion fatigue is that we just focus too much on the negative. So we see 10 patients, 10 clients that are great. And then we see one person that is horrible. And then for the rest of the day, we're dwelling on the one person that was horrible. So the next 20 appointments may be fantastic, but that one person just ruins our day. I try to think of it as I play ice hockey, so, and I'm a goalie. So if I get scored on, okay, I got scored on. Forget it. Okay, let's keep playing. Let's, you know, forget that you got scored on. Let's let's keep moving. It's kind of, it's kind of that like you had that bad client. Yeah, it's gonna, it's gonna make you mad. It's gonna piss you off or whatever. Forget it. They're gone. Get them out of your mind. Focus on on the good that you're doing. And then maybe we can psych ourselves into into being positive and having a

better day. I joked around with the newer vets, like, hey, you know, you're going to forget this case when the next bad thing happens, you know, the next bad case, the next angry client is going to make you forget the last one. And not in a negative way, like, like wait for the next bad thing because there's going to be one. It's more of a realistic thing. There's going to be more problems and you might be upset about this problem, but there's going to be others and you need to bounce back. And you need to be ready for the next thing to happen. So, you know, we cannot dwell on things and, and we cannot do that until the next bad thing happened. But we need to learn to do, to bounce back before that. Right. And, and the quicker, the better because there's no point in, in thinking about things too much. And, and, you know, there's, that's a whole different world, but, uh, I think that's a big part of our fatigue to kind of let it go and be able to bounce back and kind of have somebody to talk about it. With and, and, you know, and, and, and mentorship is a really big factor in that. Yeah,

venting and having somebody that you trust that you can, that you can discuss stuff and, and just get it out of your chest and get over, you know, be able to talk about that experience, but again, not dwelling on it. Just talk about it, get over it, and then let's, let's

move on. Or being negative about the people, or being negative about the client or the person or the pet, right? So, kind of like from the, from the leadership end. When I, when I vet another vet comes in and say, Hey, this person was this and this is like, instead of like jumping in the bandwagon with them, it's good to be like, Hey, well, you know, they're, they're acting this way because of this and that, and, you know, you, you kind of, you know, from a leadership standpoint, we're also in charge of creating that culture.

So before we, we close up, I did want to talk a little bit about, uh, something that I know I've seen you discuss and I've discussed also on social media and it's the whole concept of telemedicine and telehealth because it involves the human animal bond. And I don't think that a lot of people understand how. How that works. So do you want to explain to our listeners, what's the difference between telemedicine and telehealth and why one is okay and the other one isn't?

Yeah. Well, I'd be happy to do like a whole episode of that. Cause I, you know, if that's okay with you, cause that it's so much time that we can talk about that. Um, but I think when, when, you know, COVID happens, um, or the whole pandemic happens, I think we got used to doing a lot of things from home and we got used to, Having a lot of convenience with everything in life, but, you know, there, there's certain things and for example, where I'm, when I, where I live in Texas, there were some things that were essential workers, right? And there's, there's a point behind that being made an essential worker, right? We're essential for a reason. Um, and I think part of that becomes the fact that we have to physically be, be there to provide a service. So as veterinarians, our physical presence. Is essential and it was proven through a pandemic. So, I think, I think stemming from that, um, you know, the, the way we practice our, our, our, our medicine is not a, not a, there's a history taken from the owner and we take that into account. That's a big part of what we do, but then the physical examination is a, it's a very important part of what we do. Uh, I think that, you know, we find out a lot of things by doing that once a year. Um, but we also are more accurate by having that physical examination. So, in human medicine, and, and to explain the difference between telemedicine and telehealth, in human medicine, um, a lot of telemedicine happens, you know, in, in terms of mental health, uh, in terms of things that patients can talk to their physician about. And, and, and be very specific in words, um, and, and be very accurate in diagnosing a problem through. A conversation and having the, the, the screen now and the video calls have made it, you know, a little, a little more accurate in terms of seeing things right in, in real time. Um, but in, in, in telemedicine, you're diagnosing health problems and then you're treating and you're prescribing medication. Um, telehealth is where you do all the different, you know, emails, phone calls. Anything, any, any technology to. Have a conversation or to achieve, you know, a goal with a patient, right? So the telemedicine part is when you're diagnosing and treating. Telehealth is everything else that we've done forever. So in general, telehealth, it's very normal. We've done it forever. We do, we do it all the time. Now we've added video calls to that. And it's very convenient. It's great for clients. You know, there's, there's, and that's why we can talk probably a full hour on this, but I think it's important for us to have that initial contact with the pet and the people to then be able to provide advice and, and triage and, and, and give them the right advice later on using tools. Like technology and, and, you know, uh, telehealth. So telehealth and veterinary medicine, great. Uh, telemedicine, I, I think it just sets us up to not be accurate in our diagnoses and in creating that initial bond with the people. Uh, because I, I, I, I think that we've starting to lose a little bit of that personal bond of being there with the person. You know, and having a communication and being in presence in the same room and seeing how the pet interacts with you. And I don't know, for me, so important to have the pet there with me. As a veterinarian, and I think everybody can practice the way they want with their license and, and ultimately, I think it's just going to be very common to have this happen. Just because the world is kind of being directed that way. But then as veterinarians, we can control how much of that is done with our license and how much we're going to do with that right and we're gonna, we're gonna put it in practice like you can write a law, you can write. You know, a paragraph of how things are going to happen, but ultimately, we're the ones in control of how that case is going to go, um, and we're the ones that are going to decide how comfortable we are with what we do. And I really think that most of us are would not be comfortable prescribing medication and having a diagnosis without having that patient in front of us. And I think that's a very deep general thought in most veterinarians, and I just see a big disconnect in what's being put out there, what clients want, because it's convenient, but they don't understand that a Zoom call is not the best treatment for their dog, especially as an initial exam. Uh, versus, you know, a human being having an initial call with a physician about a problem because then they can direct them to testing and all that, but as veterinarians, we're there to test as well, right? So, having the pet there ends up being more convenient for things and issues that need more care, rather than a phone call that then you have to go and bring your dog anyway. So, I want to be specific about the wording, telemedicine. implies a lot more care, uh, that it's really hard for us as veterinarians to be accurate remotely. Telehealth is a great tool to provide advice and triage and tell them, you know, what they should do next with their pet. Uh, but I think veterinarians are going to start being careful with what they diagnose and what they prescribe over those interactions without knowing those people and having that pet in front of them. And I hope that we as leaders that we have been in the industry longer can steer it into that direction rather than steer it to making it normal. For you to jump on a zoom call and prescribe medication, and I think that the newer generation of vets need to see us kind of putting a little bit of a break to it.

Yeah, I. I, I couldn't agree more. I mean, I think of it as, uh, again, like in, in how I practice if I do a surgery and I have a client that calls and says, Hey, I'm a little bit concerned about my cat's incision and I can say, Oh, okay. Send me a picture. Let's, let's get on the phone. Let's see what, explain to me what's happening. And I can see a picture. And based on that picture, I can see, say, okay, is, is she eating, drinking, everything else is okay. Okay. You know, everything looks okay. We just need to do some compresses or we don't just need to put an e-collar. Okay. So, because I, I know that patient, I have a relationship with that patient. I have a relationship with that owner, but it's different to just somebody calling me up and saying, Hey, my dog has vomiting and diarrhea. And what am I going to do with that? Like, there are so many different things that can be, and you know, it's like, uh, and, and me saying. Okay. Well, I'm going to call you in a prescription and hopefully this is okay. And if I'm wrong, something can go really, really, really wrong. Then, you know, it's the harm to the patient and then the harm to ourselves as veterinarians and the potential harm to our license.

Yeah. And, and I think the law is opening a gate that then sets up the veterinarian for more liability under the board of, of, of, you know, veterinary medicine in their States. Right. So they're, they're, they're being more open to you diagnosing and practicing the way you want. And that's also opening you up to more, you know, strict, um, um, judgment of your medicine, right? Because the standard of care really is up to the veterinarians that are analyzing that case and how it went along, right? And what happened, you know, when you're analyzing a mistake and the standard of care and how it went along and, you know, you had this, you know, interaction on a Zoom call and you had advice, you diagnosed the patient. So then you're liable for that result and, and what you said and, uh, went along. So I, I, I think there's going to be a lot of veterinarians nervous about, with certain things. Uh, I think that, you know, they, they, they're dogs limping, you have, you're going to have veterinarians that are going to be okay saying, well, you know, let's do some anti inflammatories if it's not better, but then you're going to have a lot of us be like, you know. I don't know. It could be so many things. I haven't, let me see the gums. Well, I'm seeing it through a screen. Let me feel the gums. Well, I can't feel them. I'm asking the owner now, how do they feel? You know, I've triaged emergencies before over the phone, so I know what to talk, what to ask. I think the video adds some value to that, but it doesn't make it a consultation, right? It, it just, it enhances the phone call as a tool, but it doesn't make it a full consultation to where you can practice medicine. Yeah, that's how I see it.

Yeah, no, it As you mentioned, I mean, this is a huge topic and I think that, uh, as things are changing, I mean, there's a lot coming, coming soon, both good and bad, so I would definitely love to have you back at some point to, to have a whole episode of just telemedicine the implications, the stakeholders and. And everything involved. So, so, um, uh, so in closing, uh, you have your own podcast. So do you want to tell our listeners about your

podcast? Yeah, it's called, uh, Tu Amigo Fiel. Uh, it's a podcast that, um, my brother's brother in law, uh, and I started, and then Carla, a technician started to give advice to Spanish speakers, you know, about their pets and where I was working in Houston, uh, I, you know, Houston, Texas, I had a lot of Spanish speaking clients and I realized that there's not a lot out there to help them out. And we started having this podcast to, you know, we, where we talked about general problems and you have the technician perspective, the owner perspective, and then the veterinarian perspective. So, it's a, it's a fun conversation type podcast. Um, you know, not, not very straight, not very technical, um. You can find it on any platform. Um, again, it's called Tu Amigo Fiel. Um, and yeah, it's, it's really good to, to spread out for, you know, if you have Spanish speaking clients, if you're not very versed in Spanish and you did your best and you're still like, kind of like, oh man, did that go well? I'm not sure. Well, here's a little tool that you can use, you know, that I, I, we share. Um, That they might find fun and yeah, who knows they might come back with more questions to you and it might create a good bond with them. Um, so just, you know, thank you for mentioning it. Oh, no problem.

Yeah, I'll share the, the information when, when we release the information on this episode, because I did listen to an episode. I didn't listen to an episode that you did with Dr. Arce. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, he's great. I had the pleasure of meeting him at one of the spayathons in Puerto Rico. So for anybody else to know, he was the past, uh, president of the AVMA and he is from Puerto Rico. So very, very smart, very passionate human being. So it was a, it was a great episode. So yeah. Uh, we'll, we'll share that information for any of our Spanish

speaking friends. We, we talk a lot, a little bit about how, um, I went to school, you know, high school where he practices medicine. So the same community where he practices and has practiced for a long time is where I went to school and I didn't even know that. So it's interesting that I probably went to school with a lot of his clients and, you know, he kind of has that feel of being the community vet and, you know, he's a pretty known person and, you know, president of the AVMA and all that. But in that conversation, you get a feel of that human being behind all that and, and how, you know, you, you at all levels of our, of our industry and all levels of professionals. It doesn't matter how many letters you have next to your name, uh, little or more, we're all kind of, you know, similar in many ways. And, you know, that, that specific episode kind of talks a lot about, about that, you know, so.

Awesome. Well, thanks so much, Dr. G. You're welcome. For taking the time and for, uh, ranting with me on this topic. Uh, and I hope that people that are listening, take a little bit of pause and, and time to understand how, how their words and actions are harmful, not just to the people, but to the animals and empathy goes a long way. So, you know, we worry about compassion fatigue. Well, we're doing it to ourselves a lot of the time, so we can, we can control that. So again, thank you so much and good luck to your practice and with everything that

you're doing. Thank you. Thanks for having me. And we'll talk more about the telehealth, uh, telemedicine in the next episode we do. So I look forward to that.

Fantastic. And to everybody, everybody listening out there, thank you for listening and thank you for

caring. Thank you. Thanks for listening.