PART ONE

Ross: [00:00:00] Hi there, and a very warm welcome to Season six, episode 31 of People Soup. It's Ross Macintosh here.

Ryan: the first person who I got referred to see in my new job, this, the young lady came along, she had a cocaine problem and she brought her friend with her and I sat down to do the assessment and she was absolutely, in bits.

And, um, she'd sort of told her story and then she was just in tears. And I sat there thinking, I'm not really sure what I'm gonna do now. I was really panicking a little bit. And her friend who she'd brought along for support looked at me and said to me, so what are you gonna do? You can see she's in trouble. What are you gonna do? And I was sat there thinking, I dunno what I'm gonna do, you know? Um, and all the sort of, um, doubts and, um, imposter syndrome, [00:01:00] thoughts were just racing through my head at that moment. I thought, I, I'm a fraud.

Ross: p Supers. In this episode, you'll get to meet Dr. Ryan Kemp, who is a clinical psychologist and director of therapies at a large NHS Trust.

He is also an author and chair of the Division of Clinical Psychology England, in the British Psychological Society. In this episode, we get to know a bit more about Ryan, who shares some pivotal moments in his professional journey, including his working class roots, his initial career in financial services, and an early midlife crisis that led him to psychology.

He discusses his training and various roles in clinical settings, as well as his development of the compassionate leadership programs within his NHS trust. We also chat about his values, including practicality, learning, courage and ethics, and the impact of acceptance and commitment therapy. Or act as we know it in his life.

As a leader, he's also prepared to be vulnerable and open about his career history, [00:02:00] including the less successful moments.

For those of you who are new to People Soup, welcome. It's great to have you here. We aim to provide you with the ingredients for a better work life, from behavioral science and beyond. For those of you who are regular paupers, thanks for tuning in. Again, we love it that you're part of our community. Let's take a quick scoot over to the news desk.

I don't know if you've heard, but there's an A CBS UK and Republic of Ireland conference this year from the 14th to the 16th of November in Manchester. You can find all the details in the show notes and we'd love to see you there. Our theme is pollination innovation through connection. So let's crack on for now. Get a brew on and have a listen to part one of my chat with Ryan Kemp.

[00:03:00]

Ross: Dr. Ryan Kemp, welcome to People Soup.

Ryan: Thank you, Ross. Great to be here.

Ross: Now, Ryan, you know, I have a research department and they've, they've summarized a bit about you and your background, so I'm gonna have a go at sharing that with you, but keep an ear out 'cause, 'cause they don't always get everything right. So it says here, Ryan is a clinical psychologist and experienced clinical director with a demonstrated history of working in the hospital and healthcare industry.

He's currently the director of therapies at the Central and Northwest London NHS Foundation Trust. How are we doing?

Ryan: Yeah, yeah, that's, that's pretty accurate.

Ross: Great. He trained in South Africa and London and has over 20 years of experience in a variety of mental health settings and has health clinical director roles in both mental health and physical health settings.

Some of his primary interests are in addictions, depression, and healthcare leadership. He's currently the chair of the Division of [00:04:00] Clinical Psychology England in the British Psychological Society, the BPS. Previously, he was the chair of the Faculty of Addiction in the BPS and has a wide range of clinical experience, including drugs, alcohol, gambling, and technology based addictions.

He's also an associate fellow of the BPS and an honorary professor of clinical practice at Brunell, university of London. Is this all sounding correct?

Ryan: it's, it's all correct. Although, I have to say it sounds a lot more grander than it, uh, than I feel like it has been through, uh, you know, through my career. But yeah, it's quite, quite,

quite, quite humbling to, to hear all that.

Ross: Yeah. And I've got a, I've got a little bit more too,

Ryan: Oh, goodness.

Ross: So Ryan is skilled in mindfulness, clinical supervision, psychological assessment interventions, and anger management.

He has a strong focus on community and social services with a doctorate philosophy focused in psychology from City University of London. Ryan is also an [00:05:00] author. His first book, transcending Addiction, explores Addiction by doing a deep, phenomenal, I knew I'd struggle with this word, Ryan. gonna try again.

Ryan: It's a, it's not a word for.

Ross: Phenomenological description of this complex syndrome in 2020. He co-edited, uh, volume, exploring the impact of the pandemic on the public and on health workers entitled Living With Fear Reflections on COVID-19. Ryan is currently writing and researching in the area of compassionate leadership, and we'll come back to that as we go through the conversation.

Now, Ryan, I've also got something that not a lot of people will know, but this is based on my personal reflections on you, that you'll go to any length to support people in the practical understanding of psychological concepts. For example, when we were co-facilitating workshops at, uh, NHS Trust where you work, I've witnessed [00:06:00] you repeating the word milk at length as in milk, milk, milk, milk, milk, milk, milk, milk, milk, milk.

To demonstrate how words can begin to lose their meaning. and I love that because those sessions we co-facilitated and compassionate leadership people really valued that you were there in the room with them. The leaders, were really, really appreciative of your investment in, in sharing with them some skills and some reflections and compassionate leadership.

Do you remember that, that that training we did when you were, you were repeating milk.

Ryan: Well,

I.

think if you'd asked me, you know, before giving me the rendition of milk, milk, milk, I might, I might have forgotten, but now I do recall it indeed. Um, yeah, and I, I think one of the things that I have, I. Really been interested in, throughout my career is, you know, psychology can be quite esoteric.

You know, it can have, you know, so what you just demonstrated was a, an example of cognitive diffusion. But if you say cognitive [00:07:00] diffusion to the average member of the public, I mean, they, they just dunno what that means. So, so it's about often learning ways to share ideas that, become useful to people because ultimately, you know, I think psychology's there to be useful and to, and to change the way people feel, change, relationships make the world a better place.

So, so I'm, I'm, I'm really quite chuffed that you, um, you remembered that and picked that out. Thank you.

Ross: Yeah, and I think everyone remembered that. And I remember the feedback from those sessions too, as I've said, people saying that they loved it, that Ryan took the time to, to co-facilitator quite a, a hefty training program for the benefit of them developing skills. So, so it's, it's great to to know that impact.

Ryan: thanks. And I could say a bit more about that a bit later when we talk about, um, some of the compassionate leadership training we're doing today, which, speaks to that, that sentiment you just shared, but let's leave that for a bit later. I.

Ross: Okay. So Ryan, I've [00:08:00] shared a little bit about you and your background and your history. I wonder if we might look back on your career in a bit more detail, maybe sharing maybe two or three pivotal moments that have, stood out for you in, in your journey so far.

Didn't set out to be a psychologist

Ryan: Well, I think, I think the first thing I'd like to say is that, um, I didn't set out when I left school to become a psychologist. It was, somewhat of a surprise to me and to many members of my family. Um, I, I grew up, I guess, in a quite working class family. No one in my family had ever acquired even a high school qualification.

You know, my folks were from the north of England. Hardworking kind of factory workers, that sort of thing. My parents left school when they were 15. They didn't have an O level or anything. So it was quite a sort of low level of expectation in our family around education just 'cause [00:09:00] it just hadn't been a reality for anyone.

And so I, I guess I grew up with this, uh, determination that I was going to get educated and that I was going to, I guess have a, have a, you know, a more stable, safer, financially secure life than my parents did. And, um, and so I, you know, I was, I was driven by kind of value that was one of my values is I wanted that security.

Ross: Hmm.

Business degree and financial services

Ryan: And so I left school wanting to go and work in financial services. I did a business degree. It was only a few years later when I was working that I suddenly realized that. Although I could do it. And it was, it was fine. It was, my career was progressing, but I was,

Something missing

Ryan: I, I knew there was something missing. I, I wasn't really fulfilled and I, I was thinking, well, I'm in my early twenties and is this gonna be it for the next 40 years, maybe 50 years of, and I just couldn't imagine my life like [00:10:00] that.

you know, so I, I went through a real patch of, I was, like I say, say I had my midlife crisis in my twenties, but I really just spent time trying to work out who I was. and that's really been an important part of my journey in a way that I've, I'm constantly thinking and reflecting on who I am and, and what would, give me, you know, give me pleasure, but also kind of stimulation. and that ultimately led to deciding to become a psychologist without knowing anything about how to actually do it, um,

in the first place. So that was, uh. And it shocked my family. and, um, some people just thought I was, um, losing it.

Ross: So, so you were, you were led by this strong value to, to be something different and to have that security, which, which you were aware that your parents didn't always have, which took you into that financial services. Hmm.

Ryan: look, I was just sort of good at maths.

I, I, we, we did, um, we did sort of like [00:11:00] accountancy at school and I could just do it very easily. I, I, you know, I think I'm just naturally good at that stuff, but what I realized was that it wasn't, to be honest, it wasn't hard enough for me.

It was too easy. I wanted a challenge. I wanted to wake up and, and, um, be slightly nervous about the day I wanted to, you know, Think, how am I, how am I gonna solve this problem? So, and what I've discovered about myself over time is that I love solving problems. So, you know, if, if I'm not, um, if I'm not working or whatever, I'm, I'm doing puzzles and, playing kind of, you know, quite, um, intellectually challenging, you know, uh, games and things like,

that's, that's what I like.

So I, I wanted to find a career that I thought would bring that, and I've, and I very happily, I think I did

Ross: So what, what were the actions you took when you thought, right, I want to study psychology, be a psychologist. What were, what were the next steps?

Ryan: well. I mean, obviously I just did a bit of, [00:12:00] you know, and there's no Google in those days. Um, you can Google things, but I did a little bit of research and figured out how to do it. What I didn't realize was. How difficult it was. I, I, I'd assumed that if you, um, studied, got good marks, you just get in like any other profession.

But it turned out that certainly I went into clinical psychology that it, that wasn't enough, that, uh, hundreds of people would apply for just a handful of, you know, training positions. but I was well on my way to, you know, getting to, you know, almost at that point before I realized that. And, um, again, you know, I obviously got through that, but I think, um, I was probably, you know, just sort of, I just got going before I knew exactly, what I should do.

And that is a possibly a, a character trait in that I. I, I like to just get stuck in, I don't like to, you know, sit and plan for days and days and weeks and, you know, polish up a [00:13:00] project and make sure every t's crossed and every I is dotted. I think that's, um, well, it's not in my nature, but also I'm not sure it's always the best strategy to get things done, but maybe we could, we can come back to that, but yeah, so yeah, so I converted, I got a sort of psychology conversion and did a, did a couple of degrees and, um, then spent about four years trying to get on this training course.

So, ended up doing all sorts of things in that, in that time. yeah. And then, um, qualified in, in South Africa and, um, because my, my, folks were from, you know, from England, as I said, um, I decided I'd come out here to, to the uk, um, do some further training, and then probably go back to South Africa and, and have a practice there.

But, um, you know, came to, came to the uk, started working in the NHS, kind of fell in love with the NHS, couldn't believe that I could work as a psychologist, work with ordinary people, working class people, [00:14:00] people marginalized people, because in in South Africa and in lots of part of parts of Africa, it's health insurance that drives the, you know, the health economy.

And that's usually middle class people who have that. So, so working class people and marginalized groups just don't really get much by the way of help. I just loved that about the NHS and I stumbled into a, a, an addictions job wasn't a. A, a career path I was looking for just happened. I, I actually applied for another job in the NHS and I didn't get it, but I said, how about you didn't get that job right, but how about this job?

And I thought, well, okay, I'll give it a bash again, probably, you know, setting off before I'd really thought about it. But, um, I was very lucky. I, I worked in a fantastic team. The first team I worked in was really amazing, you know, incredible people, but well organized. And, um, I just, uh, yeah, so I got really interested in addiction.

I think there's a, there are reasons for that, personal [00:15:00] reasons. Um, not, not that I've been an addict, but I think, um, you know, my parents were. Very heavy drinkers, perhaps verging on, you know, having addictions themselves. Definitely both smoking, both had smoking addictions. When I was in high school, I started working for a bookmaker just to make some money.

So I was, I spent years surrounded by gamblers. got to know them. So I think, um, I think I was sort of well prepared for it. I just didn't know I was until I'd

actually got going. and so, yeah, and so that was basically this first 14 years of my career. Were just done doing that and I enjoyed it. I had some incredible opportunities to do some really interesting work.

And, um, and then surprisingly, things took a turn around, uh, 2014 or so, and, uh, perhaps we can, we'll speak about that in a second. But yeah, as a

whistle stop to her.

Ross: Yeah. Thank you, Ryan. I'm fascinated by that reflection that [00:16:00] the, the context you, you grew up in and, and worked in, you recognized that that helped you prepare for the, the work in addiction. So it was like a, a looking back on that time and reflecting like, oh gosh,

Ryan: Yeah, I look, I mean, I didn't, I didn't know that straight away,

First person referred to see - imposterism

Ryan: you know what I mean? And, um, I'll often tell young psychologists the story, but the first person who I got referred to see in my new job, this, the young lady came along, she had a cocaine problem and she brought her friend with her and I sat down to do the assessment and she was absolutely, in bits.

She, she was crying. She. at the end of, you know, at end of years of struggle, et cetera. And, um, she'd sort of told her story and then she was just in tears. And I sat there thinking, I'm not really sure what I'm gonna do now. I was [00:17:00] really panicking a little bit. And her friend who she'd brought along for support looked at me and said to me, so what are you gonna do? You can see she's in trouble. What are you gonna do? And I was sat there thinking, I dunno what I'm gonna do, you know? Um, and all the sort of, um, doubts and, um, you know, uh, imposter syndrome, thoughts were just racing through my head at that moment. I thought, I, I'm a fraud. I, I, I,

I can't do this work. I, what, how have I got to this point?

I, Anyway, I managed to get through that moment. I dunno what I said. Probably something like, well, we'll, we'll give it some thought and we'll,

we'll, I'll come back and blah, blah, blah. You know, things like that. But the truth is that I think for, for many professionals when they've started in their career, there is a moment where you just, you, you realize the enormity of the work you're doing, but also that you've got a lot to learn. And it's okay to keep learning. In fact, [00:18:00] it's imperative. And if you, if you're struggling, that's not a bad thing. Just a sign that you have to put in a bit of time to

learn a few more things. Get your confidence up. Just keep going.

Ross: Yeah. I love that stance, Ryan, of we're never the finished article. Anyone working in a, in a profession where you're working either one-to-one or one to groups with other human beings, I always liken it to kind of tails of the unexpected. There's, there's always gonna be things that happen where you're like, oh, my word,

I've no idea how I'm going to respond to this, or what the heck I'm gonna do.

Ryan: I think when I look back, it's often those moments that have been the most instructive. The moments when I haven't found it easy. I haven't, you know, um. just had the easy answer, the answers right there in front of me.

those have been the things I've learned the most from because they

forced me to, to realize I have to learn and that I have to, you know, get [00:19:00] advice, get supervision, read something, educate myself, et cetera. You know, those are the, the moments. And I've, you know, I've, I've quite a few stories, but I'll tell you one is, um, in, in about 2014, as I was saying, I was asked to go and have my first, be my first clinical director job. And of course, I wanted it, I'd, i'd, applied for it. So it.

wasn't like I was, um, just thrown in naively. But I guess once, the enormity of it, entered my head, I, I, you know, it, it started to affect me. And, um, so I met with my, the service director I was gonna work with. We would be the, the sort of. The pairing, the directors who would run this, uh, this work. And, um, and he said to me, you know, how are you feeling? And I said, well, I'm not, I'm not sure. I, I feel quite so confident. And he said, well, what are you good at? I don't know why, but I said, well, I'm good at doing audits, which is true, but honestly was the last thing I really should be thinking in that moment.

But [00:20:00] anyway, those are the words that came outta my mouth. And he said to me, okay, I think we could do with some audits, so let's do that. And so I rocked up on the first day and I think people thought I was there to be the clinical director, but in my mind, I was just there to do an audit and I was co, I was confident to do that. So when people say, fake it till you make it, that's what I, that's what comes to mind for me. You know, I.

Find that one thing you really feel confident about and just have that in the, at the forefront of, of your mind. And the other stuff will come along in due course.

Ross: Yeah. Really interesting question for your, for your colleague to ask that.

Ryan: I was

very lucky to have, um, Pete Ramsey was called, I'm gonna name check him. He was a fantastic first service director to work with. He really, he helped me so much. [00:21:00] I, I, I'm not sure he was trying to help me. Maybe he was, he never said, but he did help me 'cause he was confident he knew what he was doing. And he, he was a sort of a, a, a natural embodied leader, uh, in a way that, um, you know, allowed me to, to observe him and, and learn things from him. He was much, much, much more experienced than I was. So

that was, that was fantastic. I, it was a tough few years 'cause we had some difficult things to do, but I look back on them very fondly.

I learned a lot in that, in that period.

Ross: Just a couple of things I want to reflect on, and I think one of them is your motivation to take action, which I, I've witnessed, I think I've witnessed because in the pandemic. Myself and one of your colleagues at the time, Helen Sinclair, we were developing the compassionate leadership training and we were presenting it back to you and it wasn't a perfectly formed, coherent program and we were also ready to deliver it.

We could have spent [00:22:00] a couple more months crafting it and your steer and direction was right. Let's get the first cohort in. And that was absolutely right, the right thing to do. Although it was quite alarming for me and Helen to, to go and deliver that and follow your role modeling of this is learning for us.

And I think, I wonder if that's something you reflect on in your, in your current role or previous roles that what your role modeling for the people around you.

Ryan: know that role modeling is one of the most important ways that people learn. I. I will be honest. I'm not always sure. I'm, you know, and I know that I'm role modeling. In other words, I'm, and I'm not setting out to do that deliberately. I do think it's, um, it's it's really important for leaders to recognize that the way they conduct themselves will empower people to, to act in the same way.

So, you know, so we see this in contemporary politics, don't [00:23:00] we? You know, um, not in this country so much, but in other parts of the world, where a type of leadership starts to affect the population. And I guess in organizations, if you, if you lead in a certain way, other people start to lead in that way. But to go back to, to me, I mean, I, I, I, I do think I'm a, I am a sort of practical person. And if I read something or learn something, I instantly start to think about how do I put that into practice? How do I make that real so that it starts to have a, a, a positive effect? as I said earlier, I'm, I guess I'm not that sort of person who wants to plan everything into, perfection before it, um, before it gets launched. I, I believe the, um, this, the military say that no strategy survives contact with the enemy. And I think it's a bit like that. We need to, we need a framework. We need to know what we're doing. It needs to be coherent, et cetera. But it's best that we try it quickly and, uh, figure out what it's, [00:24:00] what's not quite right and then fix it the next time so that, you know, the whole, you know, fail, fail faster sort of thing.

I'm, I'm much more inclined to do that than to, I. Spend a long time trying to perfect every slide and, you know, write very detailed scripts, et cetera. Because I think when you, when you actually deliver stuff to say to learners through, through some sort of course, you'll get feedback from them, you know, feedback they give you directly because they're fill in a form or something, or they'll tell you, but also just the way they interact with you. So if you are, if you're delivering something that's positive, you'll see it on their faces, you'll see it in the way they, you know, they interact in the, either in the breakout sessions or in the, you know, the plenaries that we might have. And then, you know, whether you are delivering something that's working or not, and then you modify it the next time. And that's certainly been the, you know, the, the, the current version of our compassionate leadership course. We, we do that. We, we track every single session. We get feedback, [00:25:00] and then at the end of the program, we, we look at the whole program. and think about the balance. So it's a constant, it's a constant challenge to ourselves and, and, um, a learning process as well.

But yeah. But I have a bias towards action. That is definitely,

definitely true.

Compassionate leadership programme

Ross: And we're, we're gonna just sneak into the area of compassionate leadership, but I'm curious about how it's evolved, the program. 'cause me and Helen started out, and then I was working with, with you, uh, and delivering the program. How, how has it evolved since then? N

Ryan: So, just to give the listeners some context, so this was obviously during, uh, early bit of the pandemic,

and although I have to be fair, I think we started thinking about a, a leadership course before the pandemic started, but it, we were still very, you know, I think, I think it was like the January that the pandemic started in the march.

So we haven't had a lot of time to think about it. And plan it. But I guess there was a kind of urgency that we realized, early in the [00:26:00] pandemic that this is gonna, this, this process is gonna really affect our staff, but it's also gonna affect our leaders who are gonna have to deal with those staff who are gonna get sick, gonna struggle with having to deliver healthcare in that context, gonna see, their friends and family affected, but they're gonna see a lot of patients really affected too.

And there's gonna be rapid change. It's, it is gonna be tough, so let's, let's get something done. And Helen was very keen and is keen on, you know, acceptance and commitment therapy and was keen that we do something in that way. And she, she connected me to you and that obviously is your specialty too. So, so that's what we went with. And I'll be honest, I mean, although I was quite confident. With act I wasn't as confident in what is leadership and how do we deliver leadership in this, in this context? Well, mostly because we'd never been in a pandemic in

that sort of way. So who knows, who knows how you do it. So we delivered [00:27:00] that and, and the feedback was fantastic on that course, but it was quite short. You know, I think, I can't remember, I think it was about 12 hours over, over several sessions. I think it was something like that.

Ross: Yeah.

Ryan: And then once, you know, we'd done that for a while and then I guess, I guess we, you know, the pandemic kind of cemented down a bit and we went, we went back to thinking, well, what do we really wanna deliver, for healthcare leaders in our organization?

And so we had a bit more, a bit more time to reflect, think about that, think about what we need to do going forward. And I guess we got a little more grander at that stage, if I'm quite honest. So we, we had a group of us looking at it and looking at the literature, looking at what, you know, modern, profit making organizations were doing around leadership, and, um, we, we designed a program that was gonna be a 24 days long.

So you, you could imagine that,

uh, you know, that was like, um, hundreds of hours compared to the 12 hours, hundreds of hours. [00:28:00] But, we designed it, we took it to the exec team and they all went, no, you're not, you're not delivering 24 days plus of trading. This is, you know, let's get real. So we ended up then, truncating it down to, to a 12 day program, which, which roughly we do one one day a month over a 12 month period.

And it has. I'm pretty much sure all those elements that we had in the early program, but we just added more things in. So, So, I, I guess some of it would wouldn't be stuff we did at that stage would be things like just management training, you know, like how do you, how do you deal with an HR situation? How do you look at your budget and understand your budget? How do you plan the composition of your team? How do you think about performance, measuring performance and improving performance? So using quality improvement methodologies for that. So it was, it was, it was broader, but it also had that [00:29:00] self-compassion component that was in our original

program. And in fact, we teach self-compassion as the first thing in the program.

So it's, it's premised on the fact that if you can't be compassionate to yourself. You cannot be compassionate to your staff and they can't then be compassionate to the patients and service users that they're there to serve. so we still have self-Compassion Dead Center in the program and it's, it's really interesting that that shocks a lot of people. They think

that the first thing they're gonna be taught is, you know how to get results or, you know, this sort of like very performance driven agenda. And they're quite surprised that it's not that, that we actually, we as leaders care about them and that, that they are strong enough, equipped enough, supported enough to actually be able to deliver what is a really tough job to be a healthcare leader.

Ross: Thank you. It's, [00:30:00] it's great to hear how it's evolved and how, it's

now something more substantial and with monthly sessions. It sounds great. Now as I've been talking, I've been thinking about your values. You've already shared some of your values and I see a strong value in practicality, in in learning.

I'm also, I dunno how you'd describe it, but, but being of service is, is that, how would you describe that value if you recognize it?

Ryan: I think, you know, going back to what I was saying earlier about, um, you know, growing up, et cetera, I think it goes to this sort of idea. I think it's a, it is a sort of compassion psychology idea that when you're in a context that is precarious or, where fear is a, is a big component. You tend to protect yourself.

And I think, I don't, you know, I don't wanna over exaggerate this or anything. It's not like, uh, you know, we were [00:31:00] on the breadline as a, as a family growing up, but there, there were, there were difficult times and my parents worked extremely hard.

My dad worked seven days a week for years, you know, to, to keep the family,

you know, together, et cetera. And, and I think that was, that sort of affected me. But once I got beyond that and realized that wasn't really a feature of my life, I realized that actually I got the most satisfaction in helping other people and in, improving the world, making the world a better place.

And I, I actually wasn't that, I dunno, just self self orientated. You know, I, I, I, I realized that yes, obviously I want to, you know, look after myself and, you know, I don't know, have, have, have a nice job, have state, have a, a home and a a car and whatever. I mean, I'm not beyond all that stuff.

I'm not some sort of, you know, transcendent being or something. But, but actually I got a lot of, a lot of satisfaction [00:32:00] in, um, being able to feel proud of the work I was doing in a, in a sort of ethical sense. And a, I I, I, I hadn't really clocked early in my life that I was quite an ethical person, but it's turned out to be the way I am.

And so, so that, yes, that does really matter to me. Um, and I think it matters in this sense that I would now probably call it some sort of something like relational. Relational ethics or, or, or, or my relational life. You

know, it's, it matters to me that I'm in relationship with other people and, and I, I'm in relationship to the world particularly nowadays, I'm really, you know, quite vexed by, by the damage to the planet, for example.

And, that drives me to do certain things, you know, live my life in a certain way and also, you know, try and try to do certain things in the world. yeah, I mean, I dunno if service you, I think you said service, but I'm not sure that's the word i, I would use, but, [00:33:00] um, but it's, it's something like that.

Yes, definitely.

Ross: Thank you. Because I also see, see, persistence and, and tenacity and, and courage. I see courage there, there the preparedness to, to take different steps and, and vulnerability, a preparedness to be vulnerable. I, I see. I see in you and your work. Now you mentioned with, with the, the origin story of the compassionate leadership about Helen's expertise in ACT and bringing me on board.

When did you first discover act?

Ryan: I am not a hundred percent sure, I'll be honest, but I'll, I'll give you a broad couple of

years. So when, you know, when I joined the NHS i'd, been trained in

CBT. So I was, I was, I wouldn't say I was good at CBT, but I was, I, I understood it. I was probably a bit more psychodynamically orientated then, but the team I, I joined were, were sitting out to do dialectical behavior therapy [00:34:00] and I'd never done that.

So that was a. New experience for me and an adventure for me. And, and I enjoyed it. And I guess it was a bit, it, it sort of connected the mindfulness component of DBT connected to something that I was interested in my own kind of spiritual life. So I guess, and then I started reading around and, because DBT is a program where, you know, people, don't just do DBT, well certainly in those days you didn't do C-B-D-B-T just with, with one person.

There was a group program plus individual work, plus the phone program, et cetera. I, I was sort of looking for something to do individually. 'cause some of my work wasn't, wasn't in the DBT program. And then at some point, I would say somewhere in the round 2002, 2003, somewhere around there, I, I discovered ACT and um. I'll be honest, I struggled a little with, with it at the beginning because I think some of the early books, were quite hard to read. They were quite hard to get your head around, relational [00:35:00] frame theory, et cetera. Well, I, you know, I think I just stand now, but then I just found it quite perplexing. so I think what I was doing early on was, um, was kind of what I'd learned from DBT. Just, you know, sort of applied. I don't think I was getting it wrong, actually. I, I think I was, it was fine. I probably just was thinking of it in a slightly different way. but then, you know, then I went on to, you know, I've done courses in actor over the years and, and I would say now, strangely, that, it's the way I think about my own life. I think about it in an act way. I. when, when, when I do clinical work now, which is quite rare now I have to say, I dunno what I'm gonna do clinically till I've assessed the patient. 'cause I think some patients could do act, some I feel can't. some where there's particularly a lot of relationship issues, I might do something that's more attachment or, psychodynamic. so I, I, you know, I I, I don't have, I'm not a, a sort [00:36:00] of one track,

therapist. I, I will do the type of work I need to do that suits that patient. But for me personally, when I'm thinking about my own life, I'm applying ACT

to me. So it's very alive for me and I, I feel I'm, I'm a walking act, example.

Ross: Wow. Wow. Thank

Ryan: you.

Ross: So Ryan, thanks for sharing some insights into your, your career path to date. And I'd like to ask if you have any advice for your younger self. Looking back to your younger self at school, what advice might you give Ryan back then?

Ryan: well, I'd probably say worry less, have more fun. I was a very serious young man. Very serious. I'm, I'm, I'm probably still a, a, a, quite a serious older man now, but I just, I guess I wish I'd have had a more carefree. Time as a young person and [00:37:00] realize that there would be plenty of time for seriousness later. and yeah, just, just don't worry about having to make it all happen, that actually things come together fine.

Just trust yourself, stick with it and it'll, it'll work out

Ross: thank you. And there's a, there's a, a well-known people soup question. Ryan, I'm gonna ask you for your song choice. This would be the song to announce your arrival in a room, not forever, but just maybe for the next two or three months. But it would play when you entered your workplace. You would play when you went to the supermarket.

It would play when you came into your own home.

Ryan: Well, I'm, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go for, um, the Arctic Monkeys. I bet you look good on the dance floor. I'm gonna choose that because I love as, as a song opening. It's one of the best starts to a song 'cause it has a really long guitar solo to start the song that's very unusual for pop rock songs.

[00:38:00] Normally there's a sort of gentle opening into a chorus. Then you have the guitar solo about two third, two thirds way through the, through the song. But this starts boldly and I think it goes with what we were saying earlier. You know, it is like, let's just get on with it. Let's just get stuck in early on.

Let's make a statement of intent and, and get going. But I'd like to add that was, this is one of been the hardest thing to choose a song of all the preparation for this because I I absolutely love music. Um, and I spent ages trying to decide which song to choose. I wanted to, to reflect me, but, but this whole thing about, you know, stepping into a room and the song and the music goes on.

Every time I thought about that, I just felt so self-conscious and thought, oh, this is ridiculous. You can't, you know, that music coming on as you walk in is ridiculous, Ryan. So, so it was hard, but, um, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna go with that one.

Ross: Love it. Thank you.

[00:39:00] That's it folks. Part one of my chat with Ryan in the bag, but fear not. He'll be back next week when we'll be diving deeper into compassionate leadership. You'll find the show notes for this episode at People Soup Captivate fm or wherever you get your podcasts. If you like this episode, we'd love it if you told us why.

You can email out people soup dot pod@gmail.com. Now, on the socials, I'm still posting on Instagram at People dot Soup, and I'm on LinkedIn too, as well as a new account on Blue Sky. Just search for my name.

now, more than ever, you can help me reach more people with the special people, soup, ingredients, stuff that could be really useful for them. So please do share, subscribe, rate, and review. Thanks to Andy Glenn for his spoon magic and Alex Engelberg for his vocals. But most of all, dear Lister, thanks to you.

Look after yourselves. Peace supers and bye for [00:40:00] now.

Ryan: I think psychology's there to be useful and to, and to change the way people feel, change, relationships make the world a better place.

So, so I'm, I'm, I'm really quite chuffed that you, um, you remembered that and picked that out. Thank you.