How do you price your architectural services?

Maybe you charge a percentage of bill costs.

Or come up with a fixed price or maybe you charge by the hour.

But what can we learn from how other one-to-one service providers,

price and position their services?

And this episode of architecture business club, I chat with Janine

Coombs about a different approach to pricing and positioning your services.

Architecture business club is the weekly podcast for solo and small

firm architecture practice owners, just like you who want to build a

profitable future-proof architecture business that fits around their life.

I'm the host John Clayton.

And if you want to get notified, when I release a new episode, And get access

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Then go to Mr.

John clayton.co.uk forward slash ABC.

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Right.

Let's get on with the show.

Janine Coombes is a service positioning expert who can help you earn much

more from your one to one services without slogging your guts out or

moving to a complicated business model.

She has an extensive background in business and marketing,

including working with big brands like EE, Orange and Europcar.

And for the last seven years, she's been helping small service

based business owners to better position and sell their offers.

She regularly speaks on big stages like Atomicon, You Are

the Media and MarketEd.Live.

She's also a skilled writer and flat out one of the most creative

content creators out there.

You can grab Janine's free guide, Six Steps to Charging More with 100

percent confidence at janinecoombes co.uk/charge-more-workbook.

Janine, welcome to Architecture Business Club.

Oh, thank you for having me.

It's a pleasure to be here.

Thank you for the lovely intro.

Oh, you're very welcome.

It's nice to get the chance to have a chat with you.

Um, before we dive straight into today's topic, I hear you've done

some stand up comedy and I wanted to ask, how did it feel the first time

you went out on stage to do comedy?

Now, I feel like I might have oversold myself here

because the first time was also the last time, but it was great.

I mean, I did a, I did a stand up comedy course and culminating in a showcase

where we all had to do a five minute set.

You're far braver than me.

I would not have the, uh, the guts to, to do that.

Um, and I thought it was, it was a good thing that they

wasn't quite as packed a room.

Was that good for the first time?

For, for me.

I thought it was, yeah, it really allayed any nerves I had because I have spoken

on stages before for hundreds of people.

So seven, I thought, Oh God, I can handle seven people.

Well done you.

So let's move on to the topic that we were going to talk about.

And typically there are three ways that architecture practices.

Typically charge for those services.

Um, a percentage fee of build costs, hourly rate of a fixed price.

But today we're going to talk about a different approach to

pricing architectural services.

This also applies to other service based business owners as well.

Um, and it's based on how coaches and consultants do things.

And we're also going to cover positioning and niching.

So I'm, I'm really looking forward to digging into this thing.

It's going to be really interesting.

So, um, Janine, what common mistakes do you see service providers

make when it comes to pricing?

I wouldn't tell people stop charging by the hour, stop charging

by percentage of the bill costs, whatever you're doing at the moment.

But what I would say is a common mistake is.

Selling architectural services, if you know what I mean, instead of selling

the benefit, if you can find a way to, um, promote yourself based on

the end result, and part of that is.

Being clear on who you want to work with ideally, who you've worked with in the

past that you've really enjoyed, what did they say they wanted when they first

spoke, spoke to you, um, if you can position it around that and, and carve out

a corner of the marketplace for yourself that is just yours, you're going to have

less comparing with competitors because in theory, like a direct competitor, um,

It becomes less of a thing, like there are fewer direct competitors if you can

carve out your corner of the marketplace.

And it's going to make it easier to make sales as well because people who you love

working with are going to see you and say, Oh, okay, I want to work with that person.

And, um, they, you become the only person for them rather than

in a sea of architects, you're just yet another architect.

And it leaves you open to people comparing you based on price, cost per hour or cost,

you know, overall cost, project cost.

You, you want to, as much as possible, move away being a commodity, move away

from being a commodity, if you can.

Oh, that's really interesting.

And that's the opposite of the way that a lot of people

within our industry do things.

Uh, it is often about, um, selling the, the service rather than the,

the outcome, you know, whether that's building design or selling plans.

So that's, um, it's, it's a different way to approach things for sure.

Yeah.

And it could be quite a big departure.

And I mean, at the end of the day, people are looking for an architect.

So you can't be too esoteric.

I can imagine you still, you know, you still have to appear in

front of people as an architect.

It's like, yes, I can solve.

These are the things that I actually do.

Um, you're in safe hands for these things that you're going to expect

an architect to be able to do.

Um, but yeah, I think the conversation we're going to have today, it's,

it's drawing on what I would advise coaches, you know, my bread and butter

is coaches, consultants, mentors, that kind of one to one service provider.

What can we learn?

What could we explore for architects to, to cross pollinate

and learn from those industries?

I love that because I think that there's, um, there's so

much that we can learn from people in different professions and different

industries that we can, we can cherry pick the good bits and apply those to

our own business in our own industry.

So I love that idea that we're, we're talking about.

You know how people from perhaps another world do things and

looking at how we can apply that to architecture business owners.

I think that's really great.

So how can we, as You know, architectural service providers, architects you

mentioned a little bit there about, um, how we present ourselves.

So how can we better present our services to potential clients?

Um, so this is easier if you've been running for a few years,

because when you've been running for a few years, you have, you know, many

clients under your belt and you know exactly who you like working with and

exactly who you don't like working with when you're first starting out.

It's a bit more of a trial and error, you're, you're deep in the trial and

error, you know, you think you've landed a good client and then they, they don't pay

you or they, they force you out of scope or, you know, horrible things happen.

So when you've been around the block a bit, it's easier for my, my process

is based on people who've been.

Being around the block and had a good many clients already, because

in an ideal world, you would have a look at the roster of clients you've

had in the past, identify the ones that you really love working with.

They brought you really exciting projects.

They've paid you well, they've paid you on time.

They don't quibble, they don't nitpick, they don't try and negotiate you down.

They don't try and compare you to other people too much.

Um, and then you can start noticing the themes in those.

Clients, and usually there are themes with the types of projects and the types

of personalities of people that, you know, they have come up in your research.

When looking at your old client base, um, and then you can, once

you've got backlit, then you can start appealing to those people.

So you can imagine an example might be like, maybe you like, really

love working with like boho people who have an eccentric approach and

they're, they want you to run with it and they've got a massive budget.

Or, you know, you can imagine any kind of variation on that theme of,

of a mixture of values, personality, what they want from you, budget, you

know, and using those combinations, you can put together your own unique.

Proposition?

I don't know whether I answered the question there.

I went off on one.

It's fine.

No, there's some really valuable insights there.

Um, yeah.

So if we are, if we reflect on the clients that we've already worked with, reflect

on those previous projects and look at which clients we enjoyed working with.

Which one's paid on time, um, which was generally a good experience for us.

It was a good working relationship between us as the service

provider and them as the client.

We can hone in our messaging on our positioning on attracting

more people like that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it becomes a virtuous circle because if you get a few more clients like

that, and then because you're focusing in on that and you enjoy working with

those people, you get better results.

They tell their friends, so you sort of get into the right circles,

um, and hopefully you get more referrals of the right kind.

interesting.

Getting the right kind of referrals.

Is that, is that a common problem that you found with other service providers

maybe getting the wrong referrals?

Yeah, it's rare that I come across a client who comes to me

saying, yeah, I'm getting all my work through referrals, but they're great.

Every single one is completely my ideal client.

I mean, it's just really hard to control what kind of referrals you get.

Um, I think it's luck if you've managed to get pure referrals that are brilliant.

I think either you're very, very easy to please or you've been very, very lucky.

I think it's, you know, especially in the early years, it's so tempting,

no matter what your business is, so tempting to accept all the business.

It's like all businesses, any business is good business.

I need money rolling in, I need clients.

And then gradually you start to think, hang on a minute.

Um, I don't think I really want.

But to an extent, I think people, it's another theme I see when working with

service based business owners is, um, what I hear a lot of is I like the variety

though, you know, people are telling me to niche, but I like the variety and I

think it's not a hundred percent true.

Hmm.

I think you could have variety without

accepting non ideal clients.

That's a good point.

Um, I wanted to ask about fee proposals and what approach that

you'd recommend when sending out a fee proposal or quotation.

Have you got any thoughts on that, Janine?

Um, what is it?

Paint the picture for me.

What's happened?

Where are they in the, in the sales process?

Um, well, okay.

It could be, it could be that somebody's Either got in touch made an initial

inquiry, again, different architectural practices will have a slightly different

way of doing this, but it will either be a case where somebody's got in touch.

They've had a conversation with the service provider, uh, maybe

there's been an email exchange.

And then either then they'll cut straight to the chase and send them out a price

or more commonly, what will happen is perhaps they might go out to visit the

customer, particularly if it's maybe a home owner that's looking to do a home

renovation, they might go and see them in person, visit the property and then follow

that up often with a simple proposal that perhaps just gets emailed off afterwards.

Um, I'm just wondering if there's any better ways that that could be

done, if the, if there's any better ways to presenting and sending a

fee proposal than just pinging off via email and hoping for the best.

Hmm.

This is a, it's a really good question.

So I think if somebody has just emailed you and asked for a proposal

without any communication, I think that it's not necessarily a red

flag, but I would, I would hold off from sending just a blank proposal.

I mean, you don't know, do you, until you've actually had a conversation.

But I mean, those, those conversations and those...

Um, that the insights you're going to get and the information you need

to put together a quote, like an accurate quote proposal, that's all

part of the relationship building.

So I definitely wouldn't share any pricing, any accurate pricing

or detailed pricing before that relationship building has been done.

Um, and the information gathering has been done.

I suppose after you've, you've, you know, maybe gone to visit, maybe you've

looked around, you've, you've done the.

Uh, due diligence, whatever you call it.

And you've put together, you've got enough information to put that proposal together.

I think emailing it is fine.

Some people have a lot of, they prefer actually to present the proposal.

So that's one idea and before I talk about that, I would like to state, you

know, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

If you feel like you've got your proposal process and it's working for

you, disregard what I'm going to say.

If you feel like you're, you know, winning the proposals you want.

Um, But I have had certain clients have had success with actually saying, okay,

so we've had, we've had a conversation.

I've looked around the house or look around the property we've met in person.

I'm going to do your proposal.

What I normally do is present that back and then they can present it.

And what that allows you to do is cover off any objections as you go along.

It's so much harder to say, On a, on a piece of paper to, to explain the value

of all those different stages and explain that you, you can't haggle, you can't take

out chunk, you know, that chunk costs, say, you know, two grand to do that chunk.

No, you can't take that out because the whole thing will

fall flat and it won't work.

So it's easier to present that face to face or on Zoom.

Um, rather than sending it via email and hoping for the best.

Um, another point to make is in any way, shape or form, if you can put the final

price after reiterating the benefit.

Of what you're helping the person achieve, like say, they've said, you know, what

I really want is I want my mum to move in with me and I want her to feel not, I

want her to feel like she's part of the family, but also to have her own space,

like, you know, what you can imagine the conversations that are around that

might be quite emotional and might be quite rich and full of certain language.

If you can reiterate that on the proposal before putting the price,

instead of putting the price next to some hours or a percentage of the

overall cost that will remind them what they're paying for is the result.

They're not paying for your hours.

Does that make sense?

I love that.

So if in those initial conversations.

Before we get to the point of presenting a fee proposal or sending off a quotation,

we can dig into, find out what the underlying reasons are, like the kind

of emotional hook, if you like, as to why they're doing this thing, um,

and then to give them a reminder of that when we present that price that

say, look, you know, this is what it, this is the price, but this is to give

you this transformation of, you know, your elderly relative moving in and,

you know, all being under one roof, whatever the reasons are, I could see

how that could be really kind of powerful when you're presenting your offer.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, I don't know whether architects tend to do that.

How much do they delve into the, the why's?

Hmm.

Well, in my experience, probably nowhere near enough.

That's something that I probably didn't do for quite a while throughout my career

of selling architectural services, and it's only in latter years that I've,

I've started doing that and try to integrate it into my own sales process.

Hmm.

to try and find out really like people will often ring up and

say, you know, we, we need some plans for a house extension, for example.

And so they kind of have an idea of what they think they,

what they think they need.

Um.

But then actually then digging in and finding out the reasons behind it,

it really does give you a much fuller picture of how motivated they are...

hmm.

to go ahead and, um, and also I think exploring the consequences of...

of not doing it as well.

Actually, they have reasons that they, why they want to do it, but also

asking them about what are the stakes?

What's at stake here?

You know, what are the consequences of not doing this thing?

Um, which is another interesting thing that I've started asking people as well.

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Now, back to the show.

Yes, that's really interesting, isn't it?

Like how motivated are they?

Because you could spend hours a month doing quotes for people who aren't really

that motivated to take action right now.

I mean that that would be a really frustrating place to

be in unless you probe the why why now what's really going on?

How how motivated are you to take action within the next few months?

You might think, you might end up thinking, oh, they've got, they've

said no because of me and it's not.

It's because they just weren't in a position to buy yet.

And that can start refining your sales process and your marketing.

Cause I always say, sell to people who are ready to buy, which sounds really

obvious, but so many people don't.

They, they meet people a little bit too early on in the process and they have

those sales conversations too early on when they end up in a no, it feels like

a rejection, like a personal rejection.

It's just like, they're not ready to buy yet.

They weren't ready to buy.

That's, um, that's a really interesting point.

And I think sometimes as You know, architects, architectural service

providers, we can forget that potentially this is, it's a huge investment

for people to make, particularly if it's a homeowner that's doing some

kind of renovation or extension.

Other than buying the house it might be their single biggest investment

that they make in the whole life.

You think how, how far ahead and how many, how much research you

might do if you're buying a car.

Or thinking about a family holiday.

Often it's done months and months in advance of when you're

actually ready to buy anything.

And I think we forget sometimes how long that lead-in time can be

before someone is ready to buy.

Yeah, years ago we had a terrible experience with a very pushy,

you know, she was part of a bigger company and she's, she was sent around

to give us a quote for our kitchen and we were, we were just speculating.

We were just like, well, what's, what's possible with this remodeling

of, you know, do we knock through?

Do we not knock through?

And she tried to go for the sale.

There and then it's like, we haven't even decided whether

we're knocking through or not yet.

How can you sell us?

And she was doing all these weird, like imaginary calls to the manager.

Yes.

I'm sorry.

I don't think it's going to be a yes.

They'll try.

She was trying to pressure us into buying.

What's going on?

This is weird.

No way.

I don't know whether those sorts of things work or not.

They must, they must work for a proportion of people.

Well, maybe, maybe, um, I mean, when it comes to, to get in

quotes, uh, I mean, most people will tend to get three, at least three quotes.

And this goes for kind of other service providers as well, but if people

are going to be spending significant amount of money on an architect or

an architectural service provider, probably going to get three quotes.

So in a competitive industry like architecture, how can

we stand out from the crowd?

Yeah.

I think that goes down to, we're going to have the conversation about niching.

How au fait are architects as a, in a, as an industry about niching?

Are they, do we have to give it a definition or not?

Let's, let's do the, the niching 101 or the niching for

the, uh, the listeners overseas.

Okay.

Right.

So I've got a love, hate, mainly hate relationship with the word niche

because I think it implies that your whole business focuses on a very narrow

proportion of the available marketplace.

I don't like that because.

It's, it feels very restrictive and it is restrictive.

Like it works for a minority of companies where they've taken a very, very

small proportion of their audience and they've really, really focused on it.

These companies are usually very big, usually the way they worked it.

Um, so they've got the volume, what you, you don't have to do that.

You can have.

A range of services for different people, and each offer has to have a very,

very sharp target market for each one.

So if I had, if Janine had a, um, I'm talking about myself in third person.

Now, if Janine had a fantasy football league for architects

and I had an architect firm, I would have like an offer for, um.

You know, let's use the example of Granny Annex.

I'd have, you know, right, you're looking for a Granny Annex?

I've got the perfect thing for you.

It's for people who absolutely love their loved one and they want to bring

them in, but they want to be part of the, you know, exactly how I...

Articulated it before.

That's, that's the offer for that person, right?

Um, and then I'd have a different one for total home remodeling, adding at least

33 percent to the footprint, and they've got a budget of at least 500 grand.

I don't know whether that's a lot or little, I don't know.

They've got at least a budget of, let's say a million, you know, and that would

be a very specific profile of person.

And then you might have a third one.

You start with one and get that going and then you can add more as you go along.

But being really targeted with the offers that you've got

would allow you to cut through.

And it's like, Oh, well you want this person.

You can absolutely pick one and you could go deep on that one thing.

You could be the kitchen diner person.

I don't know whether that's a desirable place to get, uh, to go for.

You could be the Victorian conversion kitchen diner person.

And you've done so many of them.

You can almost do them.

You can knock them out, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang.

And you could be more competitive on price because you were the absolute,

I know the problems that occur with Victorian properties and I, I know

what you're going to need before you even going to ask it and you

know, yes, you could, you could use.

The amount of time you could spend on each one because you're such an expert,

but you could arguably charge a little bit more because you'd be able to pick

bits up that a non specialist would miss.

Do you know what I mean?

I'm getting very excited.

I I get it, I get it.

Um, I, I love

I'm planning a whole architectural company.

I'm like, Ooh, I could have a, I could have an offer for this person.

Yeah.

I'm launching tomorrow.

Do it . Um, that's really interesting though, because I love

the idea that, 'cause I, I think there's probably some misconceptions

there about this idea of niching that in niching it's like, oh, well

I have to just be like the garage conversion guy or whatever was actually.

As long as the offers are niche that you could actually still serve people

in a variety of different ways.

As long as the messaging is like crystal clear and very specific for

each of those individual offers.

Yeah.

And it would help if they came under the same banner, you know,

it would help if you could imagine if you were the garage conversion

guy, that would be really handy.

You would cut through really, really well.

And then you could have offers within that category.

You could say, you know, you've got a small, medium and large or large.

You could have, you know, um, what would large be?

Double garage, dugout, basement, pool installation.

I don't know.

Okay.

So as long as try and keep those offers within the same realm, we don't want

to be doing like, you know, a garage conversion guy stroke, comedy, juggler.

Expert.

Well, no, I mean, that would be really diverse, wouldn't it?

But I'm wondering, you know, if you had an architecture firm that had.

You logically could have total home conversion, garage conversion, extension,

kitchen, diner extension, annex.

You could have those things.

If you could have them all still with an umbrella over them, like

I only deal with people whose properties are 10 million plus

Yep.

they, they want the, they want everything to a certain standard.

You know, what are those indicators that those people would want?

If you can have a theme, it would be better.

Got it.

A common thing is that there'll be some practices that will specialize just in

what we call like domestic client work.

So homeowners do renovations and extensions, but then there's also

commercial clients that maybe, you know it could be works to business

premises, or it could be a housing development or property developer or

kind of anything else, anybody else that needs architectural services that

isn't doing, doing works on their home.

So that's another way that it could be kind of, um, contained within a niche.

It could be, we just do commercial work and these are the offers, or we just

do the domestic client work, and these are the ways that you can work with us.

Yeah, yeah.

Good point.

Yeah.

I hadn't really got that in my head.

Um, exactly.

Yeah.

You can imagine there might be niches, let's use that word, within

the commercial sector as well.

Hmm.

So

Warehouse remodelling or something.

on the, on the subject of niches then, we've talked a little bit

about niching and some of the benefits.

So are there any other benefits of niching that we haven't already covered,

um, that are worth, worth sharing?

I think, um, one of the benefits of niching, one of the

almost side benefits, because the main benefit is you're going to cut through

easier and you're going to be able to get easier, inverted commas, leads and

arguably charge more, I think it just.

It does have a halo effect once you've cracked it, it does have a momentum

of itself and you will start getting those better quality referrals,

people you'll be known for stuff.

I think it's just a, a sort of a, yeah, your, your, the ball

is rolling in your favour.

Um, and it will allow you to say no to the smaller jobs.

I don't know, I can imagine somebody specializing in smaller jobs, but if

you, you know, the jobs that you find less desirable, they will crop up

less and you'll have to say yes, less.

To those less desirable jobs.

It does focus your mind and you, you, when you get it right, it does click.

You're like, ah, I found my groove and it, it does.

It's good for your confidence.

It's good for your marketing cut through.

It's, it's like a halo effect hits all elements of your business.

So if there's anyone who's struggling to price their, their

architectural services, could you give a quick summary of what you'd recommend to

do based on what we've talked about today?

Ooh, if they're struggling are we talking about

somebody a bit earlier on in their architectural business?

Not, not necessarily, not necessarily.

It could be somebody that's been, um, I mean, I've been doing it

for a long, long time and, and.

Even sometimes I question pricing and, and have struggles with it.

So it could be somebody that's an established business owner.

What I like doing sometimes for, for myself.

And I know it's helpful for clients as well is sometimes you can almost

what's the word, not taunt yourself, but you can say, look, look at what

these other people are paying, uh, are charging and they're not going to do the

detailed work that you're going to do.

They're not going to care as much as you, they, they've got other costs

built in, you know, Sometimes looking at what the slicker, bigger businesses

are charging for things can give you confidence that you can charge more.

So that's, that's something like practical that you can do.

Um, I mean, a lot of it is experience.

Charge.

You know, when somebody bites your hand off that you've charged too little.

Hmm.

And gradually you learn to charge a bit more.

Um, what, you know, the biggest tip, which we've already shared

is, is placing the price in your own mind as much as the clients.

If you can really associate the price, what you're charging with the benefit

you're bringing to their life, that how will their life be afterwards?

What have other clients said?

After you've helped them remodel their house or, or, you know, in the,

in the business context after you've created this, you know, knowing a

hundred percent that it's safe and fit for purpose and whatever money

you've managed to do for testimonials.

If you managed to get some kind words after you've done a job, you know, it's

so safe in your own mind that the price is, that's what they're paying for.

Not your time, not the actual drawings that you're doing for them.

That's.

One of the best things you can do, but a lot of it is just iterations,

you know, getting a bit bolder and, and you know, the next price

put it up a bit and the next price put it next time, put it up a bit.

I love that.

That's a great tip.

And we could even do that after every project, I suppose,

just tweaking it upwards.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I know quite a few people who every, every sale they get, they add on whatever

it is, five, 10 percent and they've made another sale, they put on five, 10%.

Brilliant.

Um, Janine, is there anything else you wanted to say that we, we haven't

covered in the conversation today?

I feel like we've been very efficient.

I feel like we've, we've covered pricing and proposals and niching and touched

on sort of sales processes and things.

I think, yeah, I can't think of anything off the top of my head.

Brilliant.

Well, we've, we've done a good job then.

Before we kind of wrap everything up, um, I wanted to ask, I, I love travel and

discovering new places and I was wondering if you could tell me one of your favorite

places and what you love about it.

Now, do you mean a building?

Not necessarily, it can be a building or it could just be

any place, anywhere in the world, down the end of your street, abroad,

Oh, that's all right.

Cause my, what springs to mind is down the end of my street.

We moved to, we moved to this area a couple of years ago.

Um, I'm now in North Hampshire and, um.

One of the things I absolutely love about it is I can walk to

Ludshott Common from my house.

So, one of my favourite things to do on a weekend.

Um, is get away from my family on my own and I walked through Ludshott

Common and I go to this posh deli place with the, has a restaurant,

but if I get there early, I can just have a nice cup of coffee on my own.

And you know, the walking clears my mind and I have a little notebook

and I write some notes down and you know, it could be anything.

It could be journaling.

It could be ideas for my business.

It could be.

Anything at all.

And I walk back and it's lovely.

That's one of my favorite, favorite places and favorite things to do at the moment.

Oh, that sounds fantastic.

I love that.

Brilliant.

So where can people go online to find out more about you, Janine?

If they want to come and connect with me, LinkedIn is

my favorite social media channel.

So look up Janine Coombes at LinkedIn and don't be shy.

Send me a connection request.

If you just want, if you're just nosy and want to see what I'm all about,

then go to janinecoombes.co.uk.

Awesome.

And can you remind everyone how to grab your free Charging More resource?

Yes.

So my, my, uh, freebie takes you through six steps to

charging more with confidence.

It's a great little resource, even if I do say so myself,

and I can't remember the URL.

Janinecoombes.co.uk/charge-dash-more-dash-workbook is it?

I've got it here.

It's janinecoombes.co.uk/charge-more-workbook.

And I'll put, You got it right anyway.

And I will put that in the show notes so that everybody can go and get that.

Uh, absolutely.

Go and go and grab that from Janine.

It's a, it's a really good resource.

So Janine just thanks ever so much for coming on the show.

It's been great to chat with you today.

Brilliant.

Thank you so much, Jon.

I've really enjoyed it.

In the next episode, I chat with Chris Baxter.

Founder of studio 11 architecture.

You'll discover how business coaching transformed Chris's architectural

practice and learned how coaching can have a profound impact, not just

on your business, but also on your personal growth as a business owner.

You won't want to miss it.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode of Architecture Business Club.

If you liked this episode, think other people might enjoy it.

Or just want to show your support, then please visit podchaser.com.

Search for Architecture Business Club and leave a glowing five-star review.

It would mean so much to me and makes it easier for new

listeners to discover the show.

If you just want to connect with me, you can do that on most social media

platforms, just search for @mrjonclayton.

The best place to connect with me online though is on LinkedIn.

You can find a link to my profile in the show notes.

Remember running your architecture business doesn't have to be hard.

And you don't need to do it alone.

This is Architecture Business Club.