1, 2, 3, 4.

Hello and welcome to beyond the Desk, the podcast where I take a deep dive into the careers of some of the most influential and inspiring leaders in the technology transformation and operations space within global insurance and insurtech.

I'm your host, Mark Thomas, and every week I'll be sitting down with industry trailblazers who are driving innovation and modernization with within the insurance sector.

We'll explore their personal journeys, from their early backgrounds and the pivotal moments that shape their careers to the challenges they've had to overcome, the lessons they've learned along the way, and of course, the big wins that have defined their professional journey so far.

But it's not just about their successes.

It's about what you and I can take away from their experiences and the advice they have.

For anyone wanting to follow in similar footsteps.

Whether you're just starting out or looking.

To level up your career in the insurance or insurtech world, this podcast is packed with valuable insights and inspiration.

So grab your headphones, get comfortable, and let's jump into beyond the Desk.

Hello, welcome to the podcast.

How you doing?

I'm good, thank you.

It's a lovely day.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So this probably won't come out for a few.

It'll probably be raining by the time it goes out, but we're right in that period right at the end of April where it's really hot that everyone will probably remember for the rest of the summer.

That's it.

That's our summer.

Yeah, exactly.

Well, look, I always like to get people to do a bit of an intro, so let's get that covered first and then we'll go right back to the start, work our way through like normal and then.

And then we'll kind of dip into some topics that we've, we've figured out from there.

Sounds good.

Do you want to give an intro on you, what you're all about doing now, etc and then.

Sounds good.

I'm rather scarily.

I've done a.

30 years in the market I discovered not so long ago, but I've had, I've had some interesting roles.

So I've done five major roles, I would say, in my career.

Yeah.

Started in start at the back, started in outwards reinsurance, then I went to underwriting operations.

Yeah.

Digital and innovation, which is obviously the buzzword.

And then I've done a role in data and now I'm an independent advisor.

Right.

And I've also raised two human beings to adulthood and they're still surviving the biggest achievement.

Yeah.

So let's go Right back to the start because I think there's, there's a.

There's definitely some really interesting topics around because we' spoken on and off for a few years and certainly when I'd like to get into the, the change that you made into the kind of independent consulting piece and all that kind of stuff.

But what, what did the early years look like in, were you into kind of technology and stuff like that right from, right from the off.

Like what did, what did kind of post school etc and that kind of thing.

Oh my God.

I'm one of these people that actually chose to come into the industry.

Yeah.

How random is that?

Everybody always says, oh, I fell into it.

I didn't.

I chose it.

I chose it because I understood it to be very varied and lots of different roles.

I speak French, I wanted to use my language.

I liked maths.

So I did some, you know, I.

Outwards reinsurance is all about maths and calculating recoveries.

So that's what drew me to, to that.

To the start.

But you start your career, you don't know what you don't know.

Do you know?

So transitions happen through either planning or situations.

So M and A's.

I can't say I'm a particularly good planner.

I've never planned my career.

Yeah.

But it's about for me being open to opportunities and doing things.

Yeah.

But I think my innate trait is being curious.

Right.

But I probably didn't really think about technology until I was in my operations role and how technology could my favorite word, ameliorate operations.

You're have to tell me what that means.

Make, better, improve.

Okay.

Yeah.

So what did that, what was your first role in insurance and what did the first role look like outwards?

Reinsurance recoveries.

Okay.

So processing the cat losses, small losses through the program.

Yeah.

Issuing reinsurance recoveries, reinstatement premium calculations.

Right down in sunny Farnborough.

Okay.

Before I then come up to London, I think a couple of years later.

So it was.

So it started off very much in the kind of business and the kind of.

The guts.

The real guts of insurance.

Yes.

What did that evolution look like over.

Over a period of time.

And how did you kind of come to start being more kind of tech focused?

It was when we went through.

So I came up through, eventually ended up at Excel Group, which then merged with Excel Catlin.

Yeah.

And it was one of the bosses at the time.

We were doing an operating model and he said to me, what's this RPA thing?

I'm like, oh, yes, I know all about that.

I didn't know anything, of course.

So I then went to find out about what RPA was and that then just lit up a curiosity in terms of kind of technology and improving and how you can make things better.

Ultimately, rpa.

So robotic process automation wasn't really a good solution for something that is low volume and high complexity.

It works super well in sort of churn and high volume.

But then that led to blockchain, it led to Internet of things or sensors.

It then led to AI.

It led on to all sorts of different things.

Because once you start, start opening that Pandora's box, you start seeing all sorts of different technologies and capabilities that are out there that are useful.

Useful for all sorts of things.

Or not.

Yeah.

So what, so how long ago was that?

Oh, I can't remember that far back.

I said it's quite a while ago because IoT and stuff like that is not, is not kind of super, but it's kind of relatively new concept.

What, what's that kind of eight, ten years maybe?

It's been around.

Is it five speed nuts?

How can I say Iot?

So it's been in cars 20 years.

Oh, really?

Okay.

Yeah.

As long as that.

And the benefits case is really clear.

So how can you monitor something on an ongoing basis and with triggers and rules, how can you say, oh, you're in cars, you're driving too fast, something's getting too hot.

Yeah.

What have, what have you?

Can you go and fix it right there and then before it becomes an incident?

Yeah.

This is key to us as an industry and risk prevention.

So you can tell when a piece of equipment is getting too hot or vibrating off kilter or something like that.

You can go in and fix it before it becomes a claim.

Yep.

But we don't seem to be able to adopt this technology at scale.

There's a few pockets of where people have adopted it and been really successful and guess what, made more money and stopped the bad stuff from happening.

But at scale, we don't seem to be able to grasp this at all.

Really interesting.

One of my favorite solutions, GWTI or GWT Insight, have just gone into the latest cohort of the Lloyds Lab.

Right.

And they are creating an IoT enabled commercial property policy.

Right.

Okay.

So where you can put, you know how like black boxes in a car.

Yeah.

You can put black boxes in a building.

Right.

Into the building management system and start understanding and seeing a hell of a lot about what's happening in that building.

Yeah.

And really optimizing how the building is used in terms of the temperature, indoor air quality, but also starting to see when things starting to get too hot, too cold, whatever it is.

Yeah, yeah.

So then go in and fix before it becomes a major claim.

Yeah.

Okay.

So.

So you started getting interested in technology at Excel, Catlin, AX or Excel, etc.

What, what, what kind of.

In regards to the type of role that you were doing there.

What, what did that.

How did that kind of manifest itself into a.

A job or a position?

So I headed up a global operations team.

Yep.

So the technology that I was focusing on at the time was all about how do you.

How do you process stuff faster.

Yeah.

So hence the RPA conversation through the M and A with Excel and Catlin, they had a different operating model.

So I was then offered the head of digital and innovation role.

Okay.

Which was a bit.

It was scary at the time.

I'm like, well, I'm not a technologist.

I mean, I'm curious, but what does that actually mean?

And, you know, going from the perception of operations being really structured, you have to put, you know, submission from here to there, send it to this person, bring it back, whatever it happens to be, to innovation, which is.

Has the perception of blue sky thinking, lots of ideas, no structure.

I was like, that's really weird.

I'm not sure I'm comfortable with that.

And actually, as it transpires, innovation works very well with a structure.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Even if you're thinking and, you know, doing your design thinking and all these other techniques.

But there are techniques and there is structure and you need those sorts of things in order to be able to be successful in those roles.

Yeah.

So it's a bit of a weird.

That transition was very weird because it was a completely different field.

Yeah.

Which I had no or very low knowledge base for.

Yeah.

And it was scary because you have to think.

Actually, I need to think about the skills that I have.

Yeah.

Not just the knowledge that I have.

Yeah.

You don't lose your knowledge, obviously, but yeah, the skills that you have.

How do you.

How do you deal with stakeholders who don't want to change?

That's the same in operations and it's the same in innovation.

Yeah.

How do you implement something that's brand new, that people.

What's.

What's this AI thing?

I'm not comfortable with that.

How do you navigate corporate antibodies?

You know, people who have grown into a role have a huge amount of experience and suddenly this tech comes in and, oh, no, I don't.

I don't need to know.

I don't Want to know about that?

Because it might affect my standing within an organization.

So there's all sorts of skills that you have to bring to bear in those roles.

And I think people often forget when you transition to whether it's upwards, sidewards, down different organizations, underwriting to broking or whatever it is, you have a core skill base.

Yeah.

It's not just the knowledge, it's how you interact, how you move forward, how you bring that horrible cliche, how you bring people along with you.

All those sort of things are so important and that carries with you wherever you go.

Yeah.

It's interesting because I can totally resonate with the structure in an innovation role because the perception is that it's this kind of like people doing loads of kind of random stuff, trial and error and all this kind of stuff.

But actually without structure, it probably would just be that.

Right.

You wouldn't actually, actually kind of execute on anything, get anything through a kind of defined process to figure out whether it is actually a good idea or something.

So I can totally understand that.

But what.

I mean, let's kind of hone in on it because that's, I imagine, based on what you're talking about, kind of that was maybe what, five, 10 years ago, was it?

So, so that, that role, although not completely new concept insurance, I think now, now it's, it's still a relatively new concept.

Like lots of businesses won't have a head of.

Head of innovation, but.

But I think it's more commonplace in the last couple of years then it was probably very new.

And so not only was it a new role for you, but it was a new role for probably the business and there probably weren't too many peers around that you could kind of say, well, actually, have you done that for 10 years?

So was a lot of that kind of winning the hearts and minds of people around you, that the role was needed and like you say, getting people on the journey with you to kind of understand that you needed to do it, or was it more around learning how to do it, that was the challenge.

Well, that's a good question.

There's elements of all of that right in it.

I guess it's.

Individuals have different opinions.

Like that guy may not think that it's, it's needed, etc.

Let me, let me translate to one thing.

So I remember doing a really fantastic piece of work with quite a small underwriting team.

Yep.

They were absolutely behind it.

They wanted to do something different.

And I remember at the time, I then had a change of boss and the boss, the new boss said to me, what on earth are you doing working with that team?

That's a tiny team, they've got very low GW p.

They're really not, you know, not, not worth spending your time with.

But you should be going after the, the property team because that's a much bigger area, you know, you drive much more change.

She wasn't wrong.

But it's about finding the people who are going to do something differently.

So if you can find that one team who are passionate about doing something differently, understand the need for change, understand that the client base that they are supporting is equally changing and you have to keep up, if not go beyond.

If you then come across a team that is not interested in the same way, it's much, much more difficult to drive value and drive change, particularly if it's a highly profitable line of business.

So actually by working with a team who wants to do something differently, you can then create this FOMO mechanism where you're successful and people are going, oh, hold on a minute, I see you've saved this or you've done this or you've grown this and then that starts that cascade with other than people being interested because actually you've de risked it for them.

Yeah, that's what I was just about to say.

Yeah, yeah, you've made it comfortable, you've got some success, you understand it, there's a trodden path now and then you get other people on board.

So it's that cliche of finding those people who are going to queue up when the next iPhone is released or the next set of Hololens or whatever it happens to be, find those people in an organization and that's then when you can drive change.

But as with all things, you still need the leadership.

And at the time, and I think this still is the case, Axel is a great company for change and driving and innovating and doing new things.

So it is in the DNA as well of the organization.

But the head of innovation roles are there to de risk for me, new things that they then become comfortable and more known and understood within the wider organization.

And would you say that became kind of part of the strategy of that role is that actually let's find those early adopters, the people that are bit more likely to take risk.

Maybe a smaller team means that actually the risk to the business is a lot smaller as well.

And proving it with a smaller, I mean, I think that's fairly commonplace with a small sample and then move on to the kind of really profitable Teams who are probably less.

There's more of a barrier to change them because why would they change them?

That's going really well and they're doing, they're doing good, good, good work and making lots of money, etc.

It was, it was my strategy and my learning to do it that way.

Yeah.

Because it then drove success.

Yeah, yeah.

So it means the barriers less so.

So you did that role for quite a while.

Five years and then, and then, so that, I mean, I guess, I mean look, you can achieve a load of stuff in, in five years.

So did, how did you, how did you see.

I'd be interested to see how you saw the kind of adoption and the appreciation and kind of.

Did it, did it become, did it, did the company become much more open to innovation and stuff like that because of the role and seeing it it work or was it.

It still as much of a challenge at the end as it was at the start?

I think it was still as much as a challenge.

Yeah.

Interesting.

We did, we did some AB amazing things, I have to say.

Excuse me.

One of my favorites was the.

We kicked off what then became the global health risk facility.

So what worked really well again was finding strong use cases and strong problems and figuring out how you could solve those problems.

Right.

So this particular use case was or problem was the transport of vaccines and this was pre Covid to low and middle income countries, was commercially unviable to ensure great problem statement, global problem statement.

And over time and through a very diverse group of people from funding institutions, technology providers, underwriters, risk managers, different organizations working together, we actually came up with a solution that enabled us to solve for that.

And it was a global program with a risk management element.

But unless you were of a certain size and scale of organization and you brought different perspectives both in and outside of insurance, I don't think we could have done that.

But that was a big catalyst for other initiatives because people really understood the power of what innovation could do and creating new markets in effect and solving quite a big crisis problem in terms of world health.

And then Covid hit and of course it then, you know, grew from there.

But it's, it's about not just the small things, but it's thinking about what those really wicked problems are.

Yeah.

That you can then solve for in that role.

Yeah, yeah, makes sense.

So, so what did the next step after that.

So you did that for five years or so.

What was the next role and what was the kind of the next stage of the career?

What did that look like?

So at the time, I was toying with the idea of becoming an independent advisor.

Yep.

Consultant, if you will.

But I didn't feel confident to do it.

So I chose to then go to Lloyds for 12 months.

I was in the Blueprint 2 team.

I was working on the core data record.

I was looking at data engagement and I don't, you know, Blueprint 2 is for what it's, you know, its reputation and its progress and all the rest of it.

It was a very interesting time.

Yeah.

But I think after 12 months I thought, you know what?

I've now got a much bigger network and I'm now confident that I can go out on my own.

Right.

So that was a real good.

I call that my transition role.

Yeah.

And then from there I set my own business up.

I learned more in that time, you know, setting your own business up, having to function on your own.

Yeah.

Than I'd done for a long time.

Yeah.

And now I get to work with, you know, different people, different companies, see different ways of operating, different cultures.

But my, my DNA is always to go in and do whatever the project is, but make it better.

Yeah.

Improve, sort out whatever it is and then I can step away and then go and do the next project.

Yeah.

So when, when you had the idea of, of.

Of going on your own, what was the, what was the kind of the focus going to be?

Because was it, was it to carry on doing the kind of innovation stuff that you were doing at AXA or was it to kind of do more delivery stuff?

Did you have a plan in regards to kind of this was what.

This is my go to market kind of offering, or was it broader than that?

Because it's quite a big step.

Right.

I mean, obviously I totally get the transition bit in the middle.

I think you see that quite a lot.

People either go and be a contractor or they do a small fixed term piece or something like that.

So that makes sense.

But taking the jump to go and do it on your own is quite a big step.

So what, what was your, what was your, your kind of plan for a focus?

I'm not sure I had a particularly tangible plan.

I had two thoughts in my head.

One was to back myself.

Yep.

I'm good at what I do.

I'm confident in doing that and I love fixing things.

Yeah.

Second point to that was I have got quite an eclectic mix of experience.

So outwards ri, operations, process, digital innovation and data, bringing those things together.

Very few people have got that skill mix and knowledge mix.

And I thought I could and I Still do think that that is a really interesting set of perspectives to look at strategy within an organization, to look at delivery within an organization.

When it gets to proper, proper delivery, I step away to be fair.

So it is more that a kind of advisory.

But how can you advise people across a sort of a generalist spectrum of different facets of how an organization works plus bringing all of that technology perspective.

So I spent a lot of time looking at all the different technology solutions that are out there.

The good, the bad, the ugly, the indifferent, what works, what doesn't work, all of that kind of thing.

Yeah.

Because for an organization, an insurer, a broker, it's quite overwhelming.

Oh my God.

There's 12 border row management solutions, there's end policy, admin systems, there's this, there's that, what's good, what's not somewhere help with that sort of strategy and the translation and bringing good solutions into organizations because.

Yeah, so that makes sense.

So what you weren't going in to do was go and be a kind of a program manager and deliver a piece of technology.

It was more shorter term in engagements, advising on various types of things, strategic input to bring knowledge in all those different areas into one, one room with one person and be able to kind of dip into all of them.

That makes sense.

So what, what did it, what did it.

So how long have you done that?

Few years now?

Three and a bit years.

Okay, so.

So what did that kind of end up looking like in the, in the first few years?

Was it, was there a real variety of stuff?

Did you end up kind of channeling in and focusing on.

On what?

Because often you see people start doing, they do one thing and then that turns into another thing that's similar and so on and so forth and they end up in a bit of a sweet spot.

Did that happen to you or is it still stayed really broad?

It still stayed really broad.

Okay.

I think a good piece of advice I would give if people did want to think about sort of making that leap into to running their own company is I had a, an anchor client.

Okay.

So Sheila Cameron, obviously big fan of hers.

I continued some blueprint to work with her and the LMA for two days a week.

Right.

So that enabled me to build up a portfolio of other things.

Yeah.

And then the wonderful Caroline Bedford and Eddie.

So I support Eddie through innovation.

So I still, I got innovation, I've got Blueprint two.

And then it's just become more technology focused projects, lots of market scans, all sorts of different things.

It's fascinating.

I absolutely Love it.

Yeah.

Yeah, I know.

I, I met Caroline recently actually and we did a town hall for QBE together.

So she's got a really interesting business.

The.

So.

Okay, so that's, that takes us to kind of the here and now.

What it would be really good to get into is.

Is what what you're kind of seeing at the moment as is going to be a really broad question.

So, so we could go down some serious RA poles here.

But what is the.

The what.

What is the kind of most interesting themes that you've.

You've kind of come across over the last few years as a person that's seeing lots of different businesses, lots of different ways of doing things, approaches to kind of innovating, using new technology, etc.

What's the.

What are the kind of common themes that you're, you're seeing or the interesting.

Should I give you my little mantra?

Yeah, yeah, go for it.

Yeah.

We do not have a technology problem.

We have an adoption problem.

That's my little line.

What am I seeing?

I'm seeing a lot of thinking inside as opposed to outside thinking.

And by that I mean we think a lot about what should we could we do as an industry to make ourselves better, faster, cheaper.

That's a blueprint too.

Tagline.

We don't think enough about our client base.

Right.

Those that we insure.

And I'm probably thinking more in the complex commercial here.

Yeah.

So property facilities managers, owners, whatever, are deploying things like sensors.

They will start to know more about their risk than insurers will and brokers.

They themselves are using AI to optimize, to do whatever it is they do.

They're using a digital twin, which is a digital version of a physical asset in its simplest form.

And they're using that digital twin to optimize a production line or how they manage their business.

So this is starting to make them much more aware about how they run their operations and how they look at risk.

We as an industry are nowhere near keeping up with that.

So that theme is going to come and bite us quite quickly because the more an organization themselves knows about their own organization and can de risk can prevent.

Well, where is then the place for the traditional insurance policies?

Yep.

Okay.

As in they de risk their building business, et cetera.

Correct.

And so therefore the need for as much insurance or any insurance in some areas is, is.

Is decreased.

Correct.

Okay.

I mean, you know, cat cover aside, that's.

Yeah, yeah.

Slightly different.

I'm also seeing that there's no conversation in the market that you can have without Saying I.

And there's no conversation that I'm not party to that you don't talk about talent.

Yeah.

And I know in the, in the prep conversation we talked a lot about AI and we talked a lot about talent.

And I'm feeling it particularly because of the age of my children, they're 20 and 18.

So not far off kind of coming into the workforce, people are quite rightly fascinated by AI.

It is a great tool, I use it a lot, I think it's really valuable.

But we are also not thinking enough about how do we bring in talent to the organization.

And I don't have the answer to this, but you know, I grew up doing data entry in some way, shape or form.

It was a way of learning and okay, now there's a lot of, you know, BPO type organizations that do that for you.

But how do we train people to be an expert in something if there are so few entry level roles by comparison to the experience and expertise that is leaving the industry?

Yeah, and we're sort of trying to fix that by using AI, but that will only go so far.

How do we bring new talent in in sufficient volumes to start addressing what we're going to need in the future?

And I'm not even talking the future 10 years, I'm talking 2, 3, 4, 5.

We're just not doing enough on the people side and we're trying to fix it through tech and it has to be a blend of the two.

For me.

Yeah, I mean that's definitely an interesting topic because I totally agree.

In my line of work, you see, there's two, there's two I don't have, I have a lot less at the entry level stage.

But the way I see it really in really basic terms now is that AI is going to take lots of those jobs.

So there's an issue in the sense that you'll have less junior people coming into the market to move up into roles and people that they are hiring into more junior roles.

Are you hiring them for roles that will actually still exist in a few years time?

And if you really want to focus on that, what are the roles that will exist in few years?

I don't think really anybody 100% knows.

At the same time you're losing loads of people.

You mean I, I speak to people on a weekly, near, near daily basis about kind of the, the risk of the amount of people that are going to retire in the next, in the next few years and, and you by, by using AI to solve that problem is it is a Bit like the kind of gap because of outsourcing in technology that you have.

Like the, the, the kind of age old thing that there's no real good kind of testers and stuff like this around because, because we've spent the last kind of 15, 20 years outsourc, so on and so forth.

So it's, it's, it doesn't, it doesn't solve the problem unless you completely solve the problem, which is probably unlikely.

So it'd be interesting to like.

So what, what are you, let's turn that into kind of more practical stuff that you're seeing.

What, what are you seeing as the, the kind of two or three major problems that insurance companies are facing now around AI and talent.

What do you, what do you think the, what do you think, what do you think the actual tangible issue?

Is it just that they can't attract people?

They don't know what types of jobs to put them in?

I think there's, there's a whole host of things, but I think a lot of people are just too busy, oddly.

Right.

People have been squeezed and squeezed and squeezed in terms of kind of the amount of headcount that they can have.

So they're trying to do more with less.

Such a cliche, isn't it?

They're using tools to compensate for not having enough bodies to do, to do the work.

Yeah.

I would love to see that completely reframed to say how can we double the size of the market with the same people.

Think of a slightly reframing, but very subtle.

Okay.

Because that for me is.

It's a growth trajectory.

It's about solving wicked problems.

It's about creating new markets.

That is far more interesting.

Then I'm going to shave two minutes off my process because everybody.

Not Everybody, a lot.

84 of the market based on a recent survey that we did last week.

Yeah.

Are focusing AI in the area of efficiency.

Okay.

So they're thinking about it in the same way that they thought about RPA back in the day.

How can I make myself more efficient?

Yeah.

That is not wrong.

But it feels to me like we're losing.

These tools are more powerful than that.

How can we use these types of tools to look at our portfolio of risks where it is more risky, less risky.

Where should we be writing more?

Where should we be writing less?

How can I analyze five years of claims history to say my stupid example?

Right.

Buildings with orange roofs are more risky than those with blue roofs.

I mean it's a stupid example, but you get the concept.

Why are we not using AI for that and then say actually green, I can't use greenhouses.

That's a bad example.

Purple houses are even worse.

So let's go and do some risk management assessment on that.

How can we actually look at the construction or whatever it is.

And I'm I know I'm using a stupid example, but it's that for me is the power.

How can we solve for risk management?

How can we create new markets?

How can we use this power to solve the wicked problems of.

I can't remember what there was a Marsh study that said something like 80% or something of buildings are underinsured.

Right.

Why are we not solving that problem?

That's a growth problem.

Yeah, because it would result in more premium, etc.

Correct.

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All links are in the show notes.

Now let's get back to today's episode.

It'd be interesting to understand why that is because.

So look, I run, as everyone would know, a startup search business.

We've invested heavily in technology, but not actually from a kind of cost savings perspective.

We've actually spent more money than we would if we hired more people.

The reason being is, is actually because inherently we're a sales business.

So maybe that's because we've got sales mindsets like how can you get more, make more money, etc.

Etc.

I wonder if it's because insurance companies are generally run by people who are probably more focused on cost and there has probably been a a a kind of a theme over the last 101520 years, however long, certainly how long I've been around, which is about shaving money off operational costs and stuff like that.

So therefore it is almost the kind of the common theme that you do every year.

So actually this is now another tool that can actually really, rather than just drop the kind of single digit percentages, maybe we can, we can really cut some, some cost out of it.

So do you think that's what it is?

Do you think is that, is that you're in that mindset already or that it's not necessarily insurance business aren't necessarily run by the kind of sales engine like a small recruitment firm?

For me it's all about just how we make more.

We can make more money and make more places with less.

Definitely.

But it's not about saving money, it's about spending money to make more money, if that makes sense.

Again, I go back to this.

Probably a lot of nuances.

I think what you're saying is fair.

Yeah.

But underwriters are still sales individuals.

At the end of the day.

I think there's probably a combination of a lack of understanding.

Yeah.

A lack of maturity.

There are quite rightly some concerns around security and data with these types of tools and absolutely I'd stand behind that.

But it's about how do you, it's culture and mindset.

How do you think about things differently?

If people are constantly busy, they don't have time to think differently necessarily.

And again, that might be a generalization, but how do we encourage people to think about those wicked problems because they are hard and it might be.

Again, this goes back to my innovation experience.

I don't think, you know, one single individual can solve some of these problems.

It requires a collective mind, a diverse mind in and out of industry.

Lots of different people coming together to think about it from different perspectives, to unlock it.

We don't do enough of that.

We really don't.

But yeah, I think there's always been a focus on cost actually.

I'd love to see a focus on grow.

And there's again, there's this cliche, well, if we, if we mess, more efficient will give you more time.

Have we ever seen that coming to pass?

That'd be a reality.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean your time just gets taken up by the next thing.

Yeah, that's it exactly.

But yeah, which is why I love that kind of digital innovation role because it did give me and a group of us time to think about problems in a different way.

And we had a lot of success through that.

A lot of failures and learnings as well, of course, but it enabled a focus on a set of problems that were slightly outside of the business as usual and therefore could really think about things differently and drive change.

Well, I guess you're also creating a team and a kind of a cornered off kind of guardrailed area.

That means that you can make mistakes and actually it's probably a good thing that you're pushing the boundaries too far so things break.

Because that's actually the point of it.

Exactly.

If you're not doing that, then you're not.

Whereas in the day to day BAU business that's exactly what you're trying to achieve.

Trying to avoid every day of things breaking and falling over.

What I'd be interested in that getting your view on as well is that obviously you mentioned about the kind of systems and the, the kind of.

I know you're really involved in shore tech world and stuff like that.

What, what, what's your, what have you seen in the market around?

Because what I mean always like I've interviewed quite a lot of data people more recently and with AI is obviously on the, on the agenda all the time.

But, but it's, it'd be interesting because from my perspective as a, as by trade a technology recruiter, I still think there's lots to be done around the actual kind of the data estate and core systems and modernization.

I think I saw something that was released this morning by, I think it was Insurance Times or something like that that still only 65% of insurers are on a modernization journey at the moment and the other 35% say they're going to start in the next 12 months, which is they've probably been saying for the previous kind of four or five years or however long.

So that's only just over half the market or two thirds of the market.

So actually are people's technology estates going to be in a good enough state to actually take advantage of AI technology?

Because I mean the pace at which that's moving at in comparison to the pace in which the insurance industry has moved to update core platforms and stuff like that is like night and day.

So what have you seen on that front?

And do you think people are maybe jumping a bit far ahead to look at that before they've actually got their, their house in order and the foundations in place to, to, to really capitalize on it?

There's a lot to unpack in that question.

Yeah, sorry, that's a long one.

So legacy modernization, that's, that's a forever thing I think because the Minute you modernize, it's then becoming legacy and so on.

I think we need to find a mechanism by which we can do that at pace.

I think we're starting to see that.

We're starting to see fewer massive transformation programs and much more smaller incremental change.

And that means you can be.

I don't mean agile in the project management sense.

I mean agile as a business as you can respond because technologies change much more rapidly.

I think there's a bit of a misnomer going back going to the second point around data and AI.

A lot of people do think I can't do it because I've got to get my data in order.

Yes, and you can do both.

You can get your data in order alongside experimenting finding a use case with AI.

One of my sort of go to examples is always AI is fantastic at unstructured data.

Do we have a little bit of unstructured data in the insurance industry?

Yes, we do, but we also have a lot of structured data.

But why not use AI, a tool that's new and different and it's the right use case for use that to solve an unstructured data problem that isn't going to really impact in the short term kind of your data estate and all the rest of it.

You can do both.

You don't have to do one or the other.

You must do both.

Again, I would still caveat that you need to be very secure and make sure that your organization is secure.

But yeah, why not use it for unstructured data?

Get you, as I said earlier, five years worth of claims history, five years worth of MRCs in a particular line of business.

Find something new and find something different.

Get people excited about it.

Oh my God.

I didn't know that this happened on this day.

And this is this theme and I mean one of my favorite examples is 10,000 workers comp claims.

Back in the day we ran through an AI engine and we said tell us something we don't know.

Did you know the highest propensity for loss happens on a Wednesday afternoon?

Right.

Okay.

No, I didn't.

We'd never found that out as a human.

What on earth do we do with that?

I don't know.

Nobody could work on a Wednesday afternoon.

But that you can do alongside doing the core stuff that you need to do to run your business.

I'm not going to not do it.

You can't just wait and sit around and wait.

You've got to got to move forward and learn.

Yeah.

And.

And I guess moving that on to.

Because Again, I'm certainly not an out and out expert in the insuretech space, but I, I mean just from, from the stuff that I've read, there's been kind of surges in the insuretech world.

Then there's been kind of real issues around getting funding and there's been some really successful kind of cases of businesses that have completely flown and gone gone crazy.

But then loads of stories of businesses that have really struggled in that space.

So what's your kind of bird's eye view of the kind of state of the insuretech market right now and where the kind of winners and losers are focusing their time?

I still think it's an adoption problem.

How many boardroom management solutions are there?

At least 12.

Right.

And there's another one coming up.

And there's another one coming up.

I mean, I'm slightly facetious, but yes, technology moves, but actually we're solving the same problem again and again because actually we probably haven't adopted what's there well enough to solve the problem that we were trying to.

So we have an execution and an adoption problem.

You know, there's loads of mapping software, there's loads of rating software, there's loads of software out there, solutions that solve for all these problems.

But number one, it's overwhelming, as I said earlier, for organization to sift through and say which ones are good ones and which ones are not.

And then when they do, can.

To your earlier question, can we actually push this into our legacy estate?

I know we can't because we can't do APIs.

You know, so there's all these things that we are, we can't get, ever get out of our own way.

I don't think with a lot of these solutions.

So that bird's eye view is.

I still go back to.

We got some fantastic solutions.

We need to figure out how to, to use them and integrate them better.

Yeah.

Rather than the same, you know, different people seeing the same problem and therefore trying to solve it in a slightly different way than the previous person.

Yeah.

You know, let's get them adopted, let's benefit from them and then figure out what the next thing is.

So you've mentioned that, so that you mentioned that adoption thing a couple of times.

So what, what's, what's the, the solution to that, that problem?

If I knew that, my goodness, mate, it's, it's hugely common.

It's all about people, isn't it?

It's a people sport.

You know, find those people that are interested, excited, get some fomo Going understand what the culture is.

One of the things that I did actually when I was in the innovation role, I laugh at it now, I called it a fast track group.

Yeah, wasn't necessarily fast, but it was to go slow, to go fast.

I'll put that out there.

When you, when you experiment with something new, whether it be a new insure tech or any anything, you still have to go through a governance process.

Yeah, that's absolutely right.

And I again, the right thing to do, but that can often block you because you haven't considered something earlier enough in the process.

So what I did is I gathered a group of people together from all sorts of different support functions that were very, very important to get these things approved and I presented every single idea to them whether we knew it was going to work or not.

Because it was as much a learning forum for everybody, myself included, to understand, well, what was the compliance view of this, what was the infosec view of this, what was the legal view of this?

So that even before we built something, we understood the guardrails, to use your word earlier, in which we were operating and where we needed to comply, or where we were perhaps more flexible or whatever it was.

So that by the time we developed an idea, we developed a solution, we brought an insuretech in or what have you, it would meet the requirements that then would enable us to move forward much more quickly.

Right, okay.

And I think that's an often overlooked element that you suddenly you get all excited about an idea and you've developed a solution and we've got this insuretech and isn't it great?

And then you come to those departments and they say but you haven't thought about this and you haven't thought about that.

Yeah.

You're like, oh yeah, yeah.

Actually deal with those things up front.

It's really interesting.

You learn, you get exposed to all sorts of different things and then as I say, you can, you can move at pace.

Do you think the, in your experience have seen lack of adoption is.

Is it it because that part of it is kind of the hardest or is it because people don't spend as much time on, on that kind of stuff or combination of, of all of them?

I mean I, I certainly normally it's someone who's like really kind of tech savvy, really.

That is that person that's kind of first in line to get the new iPhone.

That, that, that's, that's.

I, I think I'm one of those people.

So I can see that.

And then sometimes you Go to people that aren't less interested and just want to do their job and it's.

And try to get them on the.

The.

On.

On the journey with you or.

And, and to adopt.

It can be.

Can be difficult.

So.

But I wonder if it's.

If it's kind of a.

We don't spend as much time on it or it's really difficult to do, therefore that's probably why you don't spend something.

I don't know what.

All of those things.

Right.

All of those things.

And then you've got your own personal brand credibility.

Yeah.

Understanding how comfortable are you being vulnerable not knowing something.

Yeah.

Do you have to feel.

You have to be the expert?

It's literally one conversation at a time getting people comfortable with.

I mean, oddly, you asked me about kind of roles earlier.

I'm seeing a huge number of roles, which is great in change management because people are starting to wake up to the fact that people need help to change.

It's not just, here's a piece of software, off you go on a training course.

It's not that at all.

It's far more involved.

It's cultural, it's personal, it's organizational, it's all sorts of things.

And there was, again, not something I have the answer to, but I had a really interesting conversation with the coo and she was saying one of the things that she struggles with from an adoption perspective is from an organizational point of view.

They would want an Underwriter to capture 20 data points because they need it for reporting, blah, blah, blah.

The underwriter only needs, say five or six to do their job.

Right.

So they now have to add in another 15 data points that they will never use, but they need to for their organization to run.

Yeah.

How do you.

How do you reconcile that complete difference in requirements, operating model, all the rest of it?

Because both are correct.

Yeah.

But that goes to adoption as well.

I only want to do my five because that's all I need.

Yeah.

How do you stop them cutting corners to not have to do a separate 75 more work to.

That they're never going to benefit from, but is a requirement to run effectively.

Yeah.

That's where technology can sometimes play a part.

Right.

Yeah.

But it's.

I know that's one example, but it's the example of the thinking and one of the barriers to adoption.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I wanted to move on to talk a little bit about kind of challenges you face, learning points and stuff like that.

I get the impression there's probably quite a few like.

But, But Before I get into that, like, I just wanted, like, I mean, we spoke about it a little bit before we started, very briefly about the kind of zigzagging of careers and I said to you, like, I mean, I think I put a post out Last week on LinkedIn that was the most common theme of everyone I've spoken to.

Bar, bar, literally one or two, is that the vast majority of, of senior people, CIOs, CEOs, CEOs, etcetera have done breadth rather than just the kind of linear career.

You've obviously done exactly that and, and then changed even more so to go and down the independent route.

So what, what, what would you say, like anybody who's looking to do that kind of thing, what advice would you give to people when doing that?

Because I think it's fairly, I think lots of people would agree that it's the right thing to do to, to make sideways moves, but you'd be amazed at how many people that I speak to anyway are worried about doing it because it doesn't look great on their, their CV or their, they don't know where to move.

So what, is there any kind of tips or advice or things that you've come across while doing that that you would, you would, you would kind of give to other people who around kind of thinking, do the same thing?

Well, I mean, slightly facetiously, just do it.

Yeah.

I mean if it doesn't work out, you're not going to be there for the rest of your life.

Yeah.

If you've tried something, it really doesn't work, then you can just change again.

Yeah.

But people, I don't know whether people go into it thinking, oh, that's it, now I've got to stay here.

If it doesn't work, just do it.

Learn.

One of the best pieces of advice that I've ever been given is, and this was particularly in terms of becoming an independent, you only ever need to be half a step ahead of the other person because the rest you'll just figure out.

Yeah.

So if you can, if you can know what that, that small next step is, whether it be knowledge, whether it be skill, the rest you'll just figure out.

And if you can't, it doesn't matter because you'll know somebody who can.

Yeah.

So build the people around you that are going to be your experts, that are going to complement your skills and do things that you can't do and vice versa.

Yeah.

Because I think a lot of people thinking it's just about them, it never ever is just about them.

It's about them and the people around them that can, for the life of me, I would never be able to do a project plan.

That's not my skill set and it's not my interest.

I know people who love doing that.

I love working with those people.

Again, simple example, somebody who's great at stakeholder engagement, change management, a real technical person, all of those diverse perspectives and skill sets.

But I'd still, you know, going back to the question, I would, I would absolutely experience and do something different because it takes you in all sorts of wonderful directions that you never expect.

Yeah.

And if you make a mistake.

So what, this is insurance.

Yeah.

We're not surgeons.

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

Learn from it.

It's okay to not know.

It's okay to make mistakes.

It's how you then learn from them and, you know, keep, Keep going.

Yeah.

Because if, I mean, I've been in this industry 30 years.

Every day is a school day.

Every day I learn something because I didn't know it or I thought something and it wasn't that.

And I'm okay with that.

And you have to be okay with that because otherwise you just, you just get stuck.

Yeah.

What, what about your, your transition into.

So, so you, you, when you finally took the, the plunge to go on your own, what were, what were some of the, the kind of the challenges that you, you face there?

Maybe some that you probably were expected and I guess there were a few that you, you, you necessarily weren't.

Weren't expecting.

Business development is hard.

I think that's probably my, my one thing.

But I would, I would choose that every day now.

It's very hard to get as an independent, to get work.

And, you know, you are competing against the big four.

You're competing against other consulting organizations.

I do align myself with a handful of consulting organizations to help with that.

With that vd, But I think that's the, that is the hardest.

It is harder because I don't play golf.

I'm just going to say it.

I'm just going to say it.

I don't play golf.

And it is harder from that perspective.

But that is hard because it's difficult to get people to make decisions in organizations and, and to be able to get.

Yeah.

Different projects.

But when I have done projects, they've been great and the people I've worked with have been fab.

Were you expecting that to be difficult?

Was it just, was it more difficult than you expected or were you just always expecting it?

I was expecting it to be a challenge because you're having to sell yourself and your skills and your knowledge, and that's.

And you are just on your own as well.

Yeah.

I mean, yeah, that's uncomfortable, isn't it, as a human being?

Especially if you're not.

You mean business development is my, is my core skill set.

But the.

But yeah, I can imagine if it's not.

And it's just kind of a necessary evil to like, it's not what you want to be doing all day, every day.

You want to do the, the smallest amount of business development in order to, in order to then get in and do the real work that you actually like doing.

Whereas for someone like me, it's kind of what I do most of the time.

So.

So, yeah, I can imagine that's what's difficult is you kind of forcing yourself to do something that you, you're kind of uncomfortable with, don't necessarily enjoy doing, etc.

Etc.

Yeah, spot on.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, how did you, how did you go about kind of combating that?

Did you.

Do you, did you, did you.

I'd be interested to understand how did.

Do you structure it in the sense, or is it kind of.

Do you think it's an ongoing thing that you have to be kind of almost doing all the time?

I think it, I think it's the latter.

I think you have to be conscious and aware of it all the time.

Where's the next thing coming from?

As I say, I do.

I'm an associate for a number of consulting firms.

So, you know, if there's work and then I can, I can go in and do it that way.

Yeah.

So it's, it's.

I get more work that way than I do individually, for sure.

Yeah.

But yeah, that is, that is hard and it's a continual effort to do.

Yeah.

And I guess that that kind of brings in the importance of kind of network.

I mean, look, insurance is a very kind of networky type of industry.

I'm not sure that's a word, but you know what, you know what I mean?

Yeah.

Has that been something that has been even more important now that you've.

You've gone on your own?

Yeah.

The cliche is true that it's your network.

Your value is in your network.

Yeah.

And the value that you can add is in.

Within your network.

Yeah, so.

So, yeah, sort of going to events, meeting new people, rocking up to people at conferences that you've never spoken to before, even if it's uncomfortable, you know.

Yeah, it's all of that and more.

Yeah.

So although that's been a challenge.

It sounds like you're still doing it.

So like, so there's obviously been some good parts of it because, because look, I get that like walking up to any, like I'm a fairly outgoing person, walking up to anyone that you don't know at a conference or something like that and introducing yourself is quite a scary concept for the vast majority of people.

So did you, Was that, was that something.

What was that like?

Like, because I guess I'm just trying to get to the, the bottom of someone who might be listening to this, who's, who's kind of thinking about it and trying to give some kind of practical advice about what that, what that will look like in, in reality.

Yeah, it's, it's, it's.

How do you, how do you go up to that individual, introduce yourself, but with what that next step is or might be in your mind.

Yeah.

And that I think is the hard bit because you can go up and say, oh, hello, how's the weather?

And you can, you can chit chat, but how do you, how do you convert that into, oh, tell me about all your problems that I can then come and solve?

Yeah.

You know, it's that bridging conversation to get to that because I don't want to be.

It's not in my nature.

I'm not a pushy.

Right.

You will buy from me now.

That's not.

And again, it's about relationships, about building that over time.

Yeah, that's tough.

I, I wish I had an answer that's better than that, but.

No, no, no, it's interesting.

And I mean, would you, it sounds like you would, but what would, what would be the kind of.

The bits of.

Kind of.

Maybe not caution, but just like kind of if someone was thinking of doing that kind of thing, what would they need to be prepared for?

I guess I personally wouldn't have done it had I not had the strength of network that I do.

Yeah.

I think that for me is the big one.

Is so building that beforehand.

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

And building kind of your, your external presence as well.

You know, you talked about posting on LinkedIn.

You post on a particular focused theme so people know you for that.

So again, just the use of, you know, if it's AI always posting on AI on the topic of that, so people start to know you for that thing.

I think that's really important as well.

Kind of give yourself a focus on what you want to be known for and the type of work that you want to attract.

Yeah, I think is really Important and.

And then I guess moving on to some of them that may be slightly more positive thing.

What, what's.

What bits have you absolutely.

What like what have been the bits that you've loved about it, the successes like the, the, the good parts about it.

And maybe some you were expecting and some again, you may not have been.

I love it.

I have to say, I absolutely love what I do because I get to work and spend time with a huge variety of different people and I love that, I love that kind of human interaction, the relationships.

But yeah, what else would I say about that?

Yeah, I'm naturally curious, I'm naturally nosy.

I'm like, oh, such and such a company does it that way.

That would work brilliantly over here.

Or I've learned that that's not the right way to do it.

You could do it over here.

So bringing your learnings again that outside in perspective on what people do really well, not so well.

And therefore you can gather the best bits.

And then when you're advising your next client, you're taking the best bits from what you know has worked and delving that in.

I think that's been really good.

That kind of iterative nature of just continuously learning and stuff.

Is there anything that you, you weren't expecting, expecting that you were going to really love that you, you, you kind.

Of do well outside of the flexibility that I can go to my gym class at 9 o' clock on a Thursday.

Was.

Yeah.

Was that, was that, was that kind of the, the main motivation to wanting to do it or was it the variety?

That variety?

For me, yeah, it was the variety.

The, the different projects.

The, you know, every new project is pushing you out of your comfort zone.

Yeah.

Because you don't know the people.

You, you have a very good idea of the output and the tasks that you want to get.

Yeah.

But you still have to navigate through the people, the outputs, the conversations, the redirecting and stuff like that.

I like that.

I like being out of my comfort zone to a degree.

Because you're learning, you're progressing, you're challenging yourself.

I'm not an individual that wants to do the same thing every day.

That's not me.

I want to learn, I want to do something different.

Yeah.

I'm just naturally curious.

Yeah.

Okay, cool.

Well, look, we're coming towards the end.

I've got some quick fire questions for you.

Yeah, you ready?

So the first one is, which brand or company do you most admire and why?

Which brand do I most admire?

Probably Zara, actually.

Okay.

I like the brand Zara, I like the fact that they don't advertise.

Yeah.

They've got a brand reputation.

No, not at all.

So no, like TV adverts or anything?

No, you'll never see an advert for them.

That's interesting.

The quick operating model they have from taking stock and then having them in the shops.

Right.

Really, really quick, as in, like idea to kind of being ready to buy.

But it's all data led as well, so they understand what the trends are in the overall kind of market, but also within their own shops and who buys what.

Right.

And stuff will come on and off shelves really quickly.

Right.

So for example, you can go in there on a Monday and you think, oh, I'm not sure about that jacket or whatever it is.

By Thursday it'll either be sold out, it won't be on the shelves because there's no demand.

So it's a data led business that doesn't have any marketing and I think that's fascinating as a business model.

So stuff that's selling really well, they just pump more of it out and stuff that isn't.

They just.

They knock on the head.

Okay.

Yeah, that makes sense.

I didn't know they didn't advertise that.

That's amazing.

Yeah.

Okay, the next one is.

What's the one piece of advice you wish you had when you were first starting out out?

The one I gave earlier, which is only ever.

You only ever need to be half a step ahead and the rest you can figure out.

Yeah, yeah.

That is a really good piece of advice, actually.

If you could swap jobs with anyone for a day, who would it be?

So I have a.

Today, this is the one question I sort of not objected to.

I really struggled with this one.

Yeah.

And what was really interesting, I asked my friendship group about this.

Yeah.

And every answer I got, I'm like, oh, my God, that's a facet of you.

Yeah.

So one of them was, go be Donald Trump and sort it out, please.

So that is my.

So I've probably answered that question with about 10 guests after the.

After this podcast.

Never.

I don't know if I've ever done it on the podcast, but hopefully that's not a facet of me because I don't know if I am very Trump, like, but I would just like to see what was going through his mind for a day, to be honest.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Maybe it'd be a bit scary, but I think I'd.

If someone gave me the chance, I'd probably do it for a day.

I'm not sure I'd want to be there too much longer than a day, but.

So that someone was a chocolate tasting in chocolate factory.

Yeah, yeah.

Amazing.

Someone was, can you design fabulous shoes that don't hurt?

Interesting.

Again, I quite like one of them was if it's only for a day, you want to make the most money with the least stress.

Yeah, I quite like that.

Yeah.

Now having said all of that, I don't know the answer because what went through my head was I'm not a surgeon, you know, I can't operate, I'm not qualified.

I can't fly a plane, I'm not qualified.

I was like, I, I just got practical and then I couldn't think of.

Anything I'd say, I flip on that.

Then if there's one skill I was this, I was going to change this question a while back and I was going to say if there's one skill that you wish you could do that you can't, what would it, would there be something you'd add to your skill set?

Probably the selling bit.

How can you convert leads really easily?

Amazing at selling.

Yeah.

Life would be a good place if you could sell anything, wouldn't it?

Okay with authenticity?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

Best business related book you've ever read or non fiction.

Are you a big reader?

I'm a big reader, yeah.

Okay.

Fiction, non fictional.

All of it?

All of it.

Probably.

Brene Brown, she's brilliant.

Really, really good advice about, you know, how to, how to behave in a corporate, you know, she's written a book called Rising Strong and a handful of other books but it's all about how do you be your authentic self.

Okay.

And I really resonated with that.

But there's the author called Brene Brown.

Brene Brown, Yeah.

She's.

I think she's got one of the most watched TED talks on vulnerability.

All right, okay, I'll check it out.

If you could wave a magic wand, I think I might know the answer to this.

Wave a magic wand and change one thing about insurance.

What would it be?

Swap from product led to service led, product backed.

Okay, explain that a little bit more.

So we sell insurance products, don't we?

So that you have a, you know, something happens, you claim.

Great.

Actually, why do we not think about a risk management service and we will go and work with you to make your site safer.

Put in, you know, safety solutions, new whatever it is and then if it still goes wrong, then we'll pay your claim.

Right.

So a little bit like what kind of say Vitality might do on the medical side, and it's not quite that, but their approach is prevention rather than cure kind of thing.

That would be my desire.

Yeah.

Okay, that's interesting.

That's not what I thought you were gonna say.

I thought you were about adoption.

So the penultimate one, the person you most admire in the the world.

My mum.

Okay, tell me a bit more about that then.

She faced a lot of adversity and she was bloody strong.

She was a pain in the neck.

Yeah.

But I will credit her far more for being who I am, thanks to her.

Yeah.

Amazing.

And then the final question.

What's the best thing about working in insurance?

The people.

Okay.

Yeah, the people.

I.

I mean, you can, you can work with somebody 30 years ago and you can see them yesterday and you'll still have that rapport.

You can't walk 10 meters, can you, in the square mile without coming and finding somebody, you know, And I think that almost sort of insurance family.

Yeah, it's fabulous.

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

And that's why, even more so, the network's kind of more important because it's kind of what it's built on.

Isn't it amazing?

Well, look, we've come to the end.

Thanks so much for time.

I think we've been trying to do this for.

I was looking back on LinkedIn messages, it's definitely years rather than months, but eventually we got it in.

So I really appreciate it.

I'm sure there'll be loads of people want to reach out.

Let's get you some consulting engagements and interest stuff off the back of this.

So if you're LinkedIn, the best place.

Yes.

Yeah, cool.

So look, connect with me, connect with Helene on LinkedIn, like comment, subscribe, etc.

And we'll see everyone next time.

Brilliant.

My pleasure.

And that's it for today's episode of beyond the Desk.

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