[00:00:00] Lauryn: Hey, she slayers and welcome to another episode of she slays the day podcast. I am your host, Dr. Lauren Brunslick.

[00:00:06] Kirby: And I am your co host slash guest, still not a doctor, Kirby Brunswick.

[00:00:12] Lauryn: You're always slow to like, come in. I'm like, hello,

[00:00:16] Kirby: Well, I don't know.

[00:00:17] Lauryn: of airtime.

[00:00:18] Kirby: It's, it's always a strange thing of like, I, you know, listen to when you introduce people like, so, or when you're talking to people and you don't normally just pause and let them introduce themselves. So I

[00:00:30] Lauryn: it the last five, six times you've been on.

[00:00:33] Kirby: Well, maybe I am subtly trying to nudge you into introducing me

[00:00:38] Lauryn: Oh, that'd be, I don't think so. I don't do public displays of affection.

[00:00:44] Kirby: you give my bio and sing my praises,

[00:00:46] Lauryn: Um, I barely do that for real guests. Like half the time I'm like, oh, wait. I need to like read their bio. Um, so the goal was that you were going to be on once a month. And I mean, it is January 31st and maybe I'll rush this episode, but even then it's going to be like more mid February.

[00:01:10] So we're not doing so hot.

[00:01:13] Kirby: but we recorded that date night one too. So like, this will be the second one I've recorded in a

[00:01:18] Lauryn: is true. That is true. you know, what we need to think about is we've got number 300 coming up.

[00:01:27] Kirby: Oh, yeah, I didn't think about that.

[00:01:30] Lauryn: is that? Like, well,

[00:01:32] Kirby: Feel like for 300, you need like a mega guest.

[00:01:35] Lauryn: mega guest. Yeah.

[00:01:37] Kirby: you got to get like RFK jr or something.

[00:01:40] Lauryn: Yeah. Can you call him?

[00:01:41] Kirby: Yeah, I don't think he's busy or anything.

[00:01:44] Lauryn: yeah, especially today. He is. Well, he's either about to be busy or not.

[00:01:50] Kirby: We do not know if he has been confirmed yet at the time of this recording.

[00:01:55] Lauryn: God, I'm going to be so pissed. I'm going to be so pissed. Um, okay. So we, uh, it, we have some, we're recording today. We've got our annual meeting that we're doing today, January 31st. We're, we're killing it, Kirby. We are. Killing

[00:02:10] Kirby: We had our, we had our team, our BHC annual meeting in December, like good business

[00:02:15] Lauryn: many freaking things. We had so many things up in the air that like we had to see how sales for multi passionate carpenter, we're going to go like, we, it's not like we've just been chilling.

[00:02:26] you know, we definitely have been, have not been excelling in parenting, like. Oh my god, just like emails from Ty's swim team being like, Hi, um, we really enjoyed having Ty at swim today, but she doesn't need to come to practice because it's only for people going on to regionals and state. And we're like,

[00:02:46] Kirby: So yeah, just all these kids who are like only the super dedicated elite swimmers and Ty just keeps showing up like, hey, can I keep swimming with you guys? Because we had no idea she wasn't done with swimming.

[00:02:59] Lauryn: I'm just starting to see more and more. Have your algorithm is probably not showing you this, but have you seen B parenting? Like, so there's like A parenting and then B parenting. And like, I don't even know if I'd give us a B. Like, if love and emotional support count, then for sure. But a lot of the, like, things that rate A vs B is like an A parent, like, makes the cupcakes and like, duh duh duh duh duh

[00:03:30] Kirby: screw that. I don't want, I don't want to be an a parent. Like I, I think there is a somewhat unique and lifelong lesson that you don't need to be completely give over all of your time and all of your identity to these little groups

[00:03:46] Lauryn: hmm. Yeah, so many people lose their identity just in becoming a parent, by the way, which is so different than like, so like we're late 30s for a little bit. Somebody's about to be 40, but um, not me, not me. Um, but like our parents started to give a shit more than their parents, because like our equivocal grandparents gave like, zero shits.

[00:04:12] It was like, I barely gave you food. Like I gave you enough food to count as something and like, get out of here. And so, but do you wonder if we didn't fulfill the cycle enough? So now our girls are going to feel like become a parents. Like, did we not allow the pendulum? to swing. Because like I think as a society it's gonna rectify, right?

[00:04:43] Like it's gonna be like, okay, we had our grandparents who gave zero fucks, then our parents gave more fucks, then like a lot of our generation, a lot of people are giving all the fucks.

[00:04:55] Kirby: Really earning that explicit rating, by the way,

[00:04:57] Lauryn: yeah, I'm really sorry. but then I think what happens when like, you know, my two cents because I'm a trained psychologist, um, is

[00:05:08] Kirby: but if you're

[00:05:09] Lauryn: I was wondering, I was like, it's not really, yeah, so sociologists I met to also, um, but like, then you see your mom or dad.

[00:05:20] who lost themselves into parenting, became so codependent on you that it ruined their marriage. She didn't have friends, didn't have hobbies, you know, like, and then you decide you need to keep your independence and like personal identity as parenting. So like, I think I've done a great job of keeping my identity in parenting, but now I'm like, wait, are my kids gonna complete this cycle type of thing,

[00:05:48] Kirby: Of like, going too far into being an identity. I don't know. I, I, I think it all depends on I think you lose your identity when you need there to be something. So like, I think if they have fulfilling relationships, fulfilling careers, um, good social groups, I think it's harder to completely lose yourself.

[00:06:09] Especially if you have like, a spouse who's constantly working with you on stuff. Like, I think that's how we've somewhat avoided it, of like losing ourselves in parenting because we just have too many other things going on. Um, so I think we're a good example. I don't, I mean, I don't mind it.

[00:06:24] Lauryn: I mean, I hated going to the park. Like, now that they can start to play board games that I like, like, I'm okay with it and stuff, but like, I don't know. Like, I love being a good example for them. I love going and experiences with them. But like, day to day, Like, just, you want to play blocks? Do you want to paint?

[00:06:47] No, I don't want to paint. Like, that sounds messy and you're not going to clean it up. So we'll see. We'll see. Um,

[00:06:54] Kirby: should write a parenting book,

[00:06:56] Lauryn: oh, oh,

[00:06:57] Kirby: selfish mom's guide to parenting.

[00:06:59] Lauryn: my God. I just

[00:07:00] Kirby: Don't, don't let these kids interfere with your time. Don't, don't let them make you do boring shit.

[00:07:06] Lauryn: Yeah, you don't have to do boring shit just because you're a parent. Um, but anyways, for those that are new to the podcast, this is Kirby. If you haven't put two and two together, we raise children together and raise businesses together and are happily married. And today Kirby is here to teach us about stoicism.

[00:07:26] And how its principles can be applied to the chaotic world of running multiple businesses, or just one business. If you're just like a, a solopreneur right now, that's okay. But

[00:07:37] Kirby: Yeah. And that's stoicism is it, it scales with you. I mean, It's major practitioners and most famous people or anything from the emperor of the Roman Empire to a guy who was a former slave, or like the top two most popular Stoic philosophers.

[00:07:53] Lauryn: I feel like my ego is going to really dislike this episode. So, um,

[00:07:57] Kirby: As Ryan Holiday likes to say, ego is the enemy.

[00:08:00] Lauryn: yeah, okay. This is going to be a therapy session. Will you please lead us in prayer, sire? And then we'll start.

[00:08:08] Kirby: right, m'lady.

[00:08:11] Lauryn: my lady.

[00:08:14] Kirby: Oh, dear God, thank you for bringing us together again, um, and thank you for this medium, this opportunity to share words of wisdom, um, that hopefully will impact and help people's lives. Um, thank you for the people who practice Stoicism, who thought of this, who, who dive deep into what makes life, life, um, and help those.

[00:08:38] Who, uh, who like us are Christian, who may be resistant to when they hear philosophy to think it's a substitute for religion, um, please, please soften their hearts and let them know that so much of this actually dovetails perfectly with teachings of the Christian church and several other churches, um, and the message that you want us to receive, uh, in your name we pray.

[00:08:57] Amen.

[00:08:58] Lauryn: Okay. So question one.

[00:09:00] Kirby: Mm

[00:09:01] Lauryn: Do you think philosophers are tortured assholes? Like, do you think they're just annoying? Like, they're their own breed. I remember in college, um, so like, you know, prereqs for chiropractic school were all sciences, right? But you got to take some, like, elective things. And I took a philosophy 101 class.

[00:09:26] I am not shitting you, Kirby. I stood up mid Day one, walked my ass out of there and signed up for another physics class because I was just like, y'all are annoying as hell. We were just going through the syllabus. And I was like, What is this? Like? You are not even talking about anything and you are whiny.

[00:09:50] Now stoicism, I do really love a lot of their principle. Like they're, they're very tangible.

[00:09:56] Kirby: Yeah. It's very practical.

[00:09:57] Lauryn: Yes. So like I do love stoicism. I don't know if it's like a branch of philosophy, but like in general, I bet some of these people were like miserable to be around like, or married to

[00:10:10] Kirby: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, especially it's, it's like anything. It's, uh, these are the people who are like writing and thinking deeply about it. Um, oftentimes are the ones who are like testing the limits. So like in the same way that you can like and find the tenets of Christianity or Buddhism or whatever, in a day to day life.

[00:10:32] And there are people who write about how to use it in a day to day life. The people who are like, At the very edges of it are the people who are like, no, Jesus wants you to be in a cabin in the woods by yourself, only chanting the same prayer for eight hours a day. Like, those are some wild folks and I'm not saying they're wrong, but like, I get what you're saying of like the people who are like the philosophers writing the books, the people who are the, the.

[00:10:58] edge of Christianity, the edge of any religion are the ones who are like, no, these are exactly the rules. And we have, you have to like torture your body in order to like get the message, but there are, you need that.

[00:11:10] Lauryn: married and trying to do life with one of these like super philosophical people. And I'm just, and you're like, what even is the dishwasher? And I'm like, mofo, it's something I asked you to unload today. It's fine. I'll do it. Like we, yeah. Okay. So where do we need to start with?

[00:11:31] Like, if you're someone who's never heard of stoicism, like what? Is it, where does it kind of originate from? You don't have to give us a history lesson, just kind of in general to your knowledge

[00:11:41] Kirby: Yeah. Um, and I won't get this perfect. Um, and I can give directions on like where to start in terms of learning about it. Um, so it, it comes from like the ancient Roman times. Isn't that like zero, it stretches back to like three 50 BC to, The more modern Stoics were like around 150 or 200 AD, and the most famous ones that you'll hear all the time is like Marcus Aurelius, who was the, the ruler of the Roman Empire.

[00:12:08] Um, he was a great, what they call philosopher king. Um, and he didn't write necessarily publicly about this, but we have his diaries, basically his personal

[00:12:18] Lauryn: personal.

[00:12:19] Kirby: Yeah, edit, but that's what makes it. That's why I think a lot of people are drawn to it is because

[00:12:25] Lauryn: He wasn't doing it to like

[00:12:26] Kirby: he wasn't doing it to be and he had all the power in the world, like literally the most powerful man in the world was still trying to do right.

[00:12:36] He was trying to do things with what they call the core cardinal virtues of stoicism, which are wisdom, justice, courage, and temperance.

[00:12:44] Lauryn: but he did like somebody before him, write those down

[00:12:48] Kirby: Yeah, yeah. So he was a student of the Stoics. So, like, Epictetus is another one that you'll hear a lot of. Like, he was a teacher to emperors. Um, so, like, all of these, all of these kings and emperors were, um, they had training just like you would now. So, like, say you were, like, the prince of a Middle Eastern country.

[00:13:07] A lot of them, like, go through economics training, language training. They send them over to, like, Harvard to, like, learn. And then they come back and like bring all that wisdom and still apply it to their kingdom. Um, so that was still going on, that was going on in ancient times as well. So they would have like philosopher training, they would have philosophy.

[00:13:26] Um, now how those emperors applied that was wildly different. So like Marcus Aurelius was trained in it and lived his life by these principles. Nero also had a very famous teacher and was an absolute maniac. Um, so it's, it's very telling and very cool and, and that's why Marcus Aurelius is so famous within this, is because he could have done anything he wanted and his predecessors and the people who came after him, including his own son, were complete monsters.

[00:13:58] Despite them all getting similar training, but he actually put the philosophy into action, in some really extreme examples too, that made it kind of very famous and cool. It's kind of like how the most famous people in religious circles are often the people who like truly walk the walk, like the, the Ghandis who like did come from some privilege, but like absolutely made himself subservient to display the message of his faith.

[00:14:26] Lauryn: Okay, you

[00:14:26] Kirby: The mother Teresa's

[00:14:28] Lauryn: you, you said extreme example, do you have, like, what's an extreme example?

[00:14:32] Kirby: So I, I don't have, I can't remember all the details, but he was betrayed by one of his own, like, generals and forgave him. Like, I think the guy ended up dying anyway, but he was in the process of forgiving someone who was trying to overthrow him. And not, like, immediately put him to death. Like, you want to talk about forgiveness?

[00:14:54] That's, that's forgiveness.

[00:14:56] Lauryn: but forgiveness isn't one of the four principles.

[00:15:00] Kirby: Uh, but justices and wisdom

[00:15:02] Lauryn: Well,

[00:15:02] Kirby: and having them.

[00:15:04] Lauryn: general had some shit coming to him. Um, when we hear, when we women. here on our algorithm. What's your Roman empire? Are men like men upset? Are they talking about like stoicism? Does stoicism and Joe Rogan and zins and jujitsu all like come in a package deal?

[00:15:30] Kirby: Um, yes, I, I think it's one of those things that as you start to get down, like, where, where those things intersect other than zins probably is, uh, this idea of self reliance and self control. Um, so I think the whole like kind of bro workout culture is like, I'm in charge of my body and I'm in charge of my decisions that gets into like, The good, like what some people might call toxic masculinity, but I think there was a very good side to masculinity of like,

[00:16:03] Lauryn: That we lost while labeling it all toxic.

[00:16:07] Kirby: yeah, yeah. It's one of those things of people think like, if you want to learn to fight to like defend yourself or be able to be scary, they think that's means you want to go out and beat someone up. Um, but I always like the, the phrase, it's better to be a warrior in a garden than a gardener in a war.

[00:16:28] Like, it's not, it's not bravery or, humbleness to not practice violence when you can't practice violence. So if you're a weakling and you go like, I'm a pacifist, it's like, no, you're not. You're a punch. Like, you're not making that choice. But if you are capable. of physically imposing your will on someone or beating someone up and you go like I choose not to because I have a philosophy that I'm not, I don't want to hurt someone.

[00:16:58] Now you've made a choice.

[00:17:00] Lauryn: That was a really good answer. Like, okay, all right. This is taking a fun little, little turn. Um, all right. So then like the point was kind of like, what are some of these main things that we're dipping our toes into and how do we like apply them in an entrepreneur's world?

[00:17:21] Kirby: Okay. Um, so yeah, so I wrote down just a few like quote or like principle things that,

[00:17:26] Lauryn: Is Memento Mori one of them?

[00:17:27] Kirby: Um, I, it's not necessarily in there, but it can be covered under Amor Fati. So if you want to start

[00:17:33] Lauryn: Okay. We can start there.

[00:17:34] Kirby: So Amor Fati is, it translates to love of fate. so this is one, if you've ever heard of like the obstacle is the way.

[00:17:42] Lauryn: Mm hmm.

[00:17:42] Kirby: Um, so, so many of these principles kind of get back into like, if you're fight, it's a, it's very Zen, like this, we're a crossover into like Buddhism of like, the only pain you actually are experiencing mentally is the difference between your desire and reality. If you just accepted what's going on, because that's what actual reality is, and you, Can't fight what's happening or if you stopped fighting what's happening You would be a lot more peaceful and a lot less angry a lot less sad a lot less anxious So this embracing fate and what's happening and looking for the opportunity in it So this is where any business or personal setbacks like you can't change the past so like in a you know, we'll do a chiropractic example of like Your major, your biggest insurance provider, who all of your patients use, changed their rules.

[00:18:37] They changed their fee schedules. They changed how many visits, uh, that, that people are allowed to do. You can spend all your time being miserable and going like, this sucks, and I'm ruined, and I don't know what to do, and all that energy is wasted. Like you're not going to change the insurance company, but what can you do?

[00:19:00] How, how is this an opportunity? Is this an opportunity to get out of network with insurance? Is this an opportunity to better educate your patients so that, you know, they understand the value of chiropractic beyond the visits that you maybe weren't doing? You know, maybe you wanted to be giving people Truly the care plans that they wanted and needed and that's 36 visits, but you've been tempering yourself down to 20 and now Because of this change you have to get out of network and that makes you a better chiropractor and a better communicator and actually helps the people who are your patients even more

[00:19:35] Lauryn: So you said that like the phrase is a love of fate. So what I'm hearing is like, cause there's kind of like two aspects to this. It's like the realization that like. We, we cause ourselves pain by just not accepting what is. I love that of like, your numbers aren't as good as you think they should be. And so you are feeling all this.

[00:19:59] But then the other aspect of like the love of fate, um, I feel like there's this other thing where it's like the Edison's, I learned 99 ways to not make a light bulb or like something wrong happened. And you said that you say, thank you. Right. Like, is that something you've

[00:20:16] Kirby: yeah, we've talked about that before like the Jocko Wilnick saying of like good like now I know Now I know that this doesn't work and I have the opportunity, like I have a new set of knowledge and I now know that this doesn't work. So what are we going to do with that? Like, where am I going to pivot?

[00:20:33] What do we do next? Like, thank you for this lesson.

[00:20:36] Lauryn: Does that like kind of

[00:20:37] Kirby: Yeah, that's all. That's all. Yeah. And so like, yeah, this is where that's why that's why stoic philosophy is like really popular among like business coaches, it's popular among sports coaches and personal everyday like philosophy.

[00:20:52] So like that's where the Joe Rogan, the sports mind,

[00:20:56] Lauryn: Well, just

[00:20:56] even

[00:20:57] Kirby: SEAL mind.

[00:20:58] Lauryn: just that one principle again, like most philosophy sucks, but like, this is like, it's so. Practical and you can't, and like, it's like tangible, like just this one, you can be like, yep, I am causing myself pain. And you can see how you do this through business and life when things aren't adding up, you know, um, I just realized this because I'm finishing, uh, Mel Robbins book, let them

[00:21:30] Kirby: Okay.

[00:21:31] Lauryn: so good, by the way, love it.

[00:21:34] Let them is the vagina version of stoicism. Like, I think it's like, there's going to be all of these, like she doesn't bring up, I don't think she brings up stoicism in it, but like, it's kind of like those principles of just like, Oh, I don't have control over that. And I'm causing me pain. Right.

[00:21:58] Kirby: great, mindfulness, like teacher and person for like getting over trauma. It's the, is it true? And like turning it around and like realizing what's actually true and what you can actually do about it. Um, like that's actually one of the other principles that, that I talk about.

[00:22:15] It's, it's the dichotomy of control. So it's focusing on

[00:22:19] Lauryn: Wait, what, what's the like Latin name? Cause I liked the,

[00:22:22] Kirby: uh, I don't know if I have that one. Like, it's just, it's just the, sorry. It's the idea of focusing on what you can actually influence. So like in business planning, it's, it's that idea of focusing on. Um, effort, not outcome and doing what you can do in each day in each moment, um, and letting the results like not tying to the result.

[00:22:49] And if you principle, if you tie that with the love of fate, that good, like the obstacle is the way thing, like you. You can keep going and you can keep trying new things without spinning out. So like you can have your, I want more sales in my business. And so I'm going to try this, this marketing thing that is based on my best knowledge. And when that doesn't work, kind of loop back into that love of fate, that like, good, obstacle's the way, I found out that didn't work, um, I'm gonna try something else. And not getting tied to that idea of,

[00:23:31] Lauryn: Okay.

[00:23:35] Kirby: like, a lot of stoicism kind of gets back to like, okay, what are you gonna do now?

[00:23:40] Like the only thing you can control is yourself. You can control how you react to things. You can control how you see things. You can control what you do, what you learn. You cannot control other people's decisions. You cannot control the outcome. You can only control your effort.

[00:23:57] Lauryn: I like kind of the application of this to, to deciding KPIs for your team where, you know, like we would never give a front desk person the KPI, of something that they have, you know, like, okay, bring in 60, 000. Like, you know, it's like, okay, because in that moment, like they don't have control over somebody calling your office to establish care as a new patient client, their KPI would be more go find 25 external leads in the community.

[00:24:38] Kirby: Yeah.

[00:24:39] Lauryn: That is your KPI. That KPI is something within your control. You have to go do it and find it. That's the behavior. And so I really like, I like that kind of spin on it too. Yeah,

[00:24:58] Kirby: set like rock skulls. So they have like 90 day things that they're working on that are like set out and that's their effort. That's them. understanding what they can control, they can do those things.

[00:25:11] And if they're doing those things, and we still fall short of our KPI, like, I ain't mad, because now we learned what doesn't work. Again, like obstacles away, like, great, you did this, and I signed off on it, that it was a good plan. And we executed that plan, like, yes, no, like, it was done. And, Okay, we only got halfway there.

[00:25:33] One, good. We got halfway there. Two, we know that's not enough. What's next? What's in our control? Instead of just wallowing in like, I guess we didn't do it.

[00:25:44] Lauryn: I love it. Okay. What's number three?

[00:25:46] Kirby: Uh, this one you're really gonna hate. Um, it is pre meditatio, I know you like the Latin though. I don't have them for all of them, but this one is premeditatio, premeditatio malorum. It's negative visualization. It's also kind of known as the, uh, imagine the vase is already broke. Um, this is one where you, you mentally already imagined like the worst thing happening.

[00:26:13] Lauryn: Okay, but the worst thing can be real bad.

[00:26:16] Kirby: this, I mean, some, some stoic things or meditations are like, imagine when you are putting your kids to bed that it's the last time you'll see them. Like people take this far. Now, the benefit of this is kind of two fold. It is. kind of risk mitigation or like risk management. So like when people talk about like, imagine tomorrow's your, your, or it's your last day on earth or whatever, a more useful version of that, that I've heard is like, imagine tomorrow you're going off to war and you may never come back.

[00:26:53] So like, It's not like the hedonistic, like, it's your last day. Um,

[00:26:59] Lauryn: Eat all the cheeseburger. Yeah,

[00:27:01] Kirby: it's much more like, get your house in order. So like, I know, well, let's go get cheeseburgers after this. I would love that. Um, oh, you have a dentist, but then after that we'll eat

[00:27:10] Lauryn: brush my teeth.

[00:27:12] Kirby: Um So, so it's more like imagine you're getting deployed, like you will get your house in order.

[00:27:19] You will make sure the people who you know, who need to know how much you love them, know that you love them. You will be grateful and. And really savor that time. And you'll also get your insurance policies in order. You'll make sure that your finances are in order. So, like, this idea of, like, the worst thing that could happen or the negative general negative visualization from a business standpoint is the, okay, what's, what's, let's just throw out some of the worst things that could happen.

[00:27:48] Someone sues us, like, Okay. Do we have proper malpractice insurance? Do we have general liability insurance? Do we have a, do we have a set aside savings account or access to capital? If something went wrong with the business or if a pipe burst in the building, like it's that idea of like, and also like.

[00:28:09] Both from like that, uh, that risk management, risk mitigation standpoint is good, but also it's not, it allows you to not attach to things like if, if you are, if you're already focusing and saying like this building could burn down, like I could get sued, like you're not tying your entire identity. And you're actually knowing what's truly important.

[00:28:34] Lauryn: Okay.

[00:28:35] Kirby: like, if you do this, it can give you comfort of going like, if this building burned down, I could adjust in the parking lot, like my skills are greater than, or like, if you're any other kind of businesses, like I could rebuild, I know exactly what I would do. My skill and my worth is in me. I would still have my family.

[00:28:55] Like it allows you to really go like what. What is truly important. and I think this is one that like crosses that business. Well, all of these cross like business and personal boundaries, but I think that this is one of those ones that really does go like, if you're imagining the worst thing that could happen in your business and part of your comfort is not at least I have my family, or at least I have the people around me and I would lean on them.

[00:29:19] Like that's a wake up call too. Like, that might be a thing that you've put too much of your worth in your business if part of the thing that assuages you or like calms you is not like, well, at least I have built relationships in my life.

[00:29:31] Lauryn: Yeah, there's a huge, um, When they're talking about about like when you're reading books and things like that, it seems like ego is really called out. Like this is, these are all principles of anti ego.

[00:29:46] Kirby: Mm hmm. Yeah. One of my favorite, uh, stoic books is by Ryan Holiday and it's called Eco is the Enemy.

[00:29:53] Lauryn: when he's talking about ego, like What is, what is he referencing? Cause I feel like so often when we think about ego, we're like thinking about a very non humble person who thinks their shit don't stink,

[00:30:07] Kirby: Yeah. And I

[00:30:08] Lauryn: can see why just honestly, in general of like, these were trainings for emperors, like, and things like that, but.

[00:30:17] Kirby: yeah, I mean, well, your ego is, is the part of you that's tied to the physical body to, um, how you're perceived to vanity. And I can't think of a single thing that is, if you have, if you're really focusing on what your ego wants, you're focusing on what you personally want. And if you're doing that, I can't imagine something that.

[00:30:39] would make it more difficult to practice wisdom, justice, courage, and temperance. Like you could still do courage and wisdom, maybe like you could be very smart about getting exactly what you want and you could take big bold swings. So you could be courageous, but it's very hard to be. And maybe you could cause temperance involves like self control.

[00:30:59] Um, so you could be very dedicated on exactly what you want, but justice is the one that you cannot. Like, if you have a sense of fairness and service to community, which is like what the definition of justice is, like, if you are only chasing your will, like, how,

[00:31:19] Lauryn: You remember that I'm the person who was going to fight that justice, Marcus Aurelius didn't actually need to forgive his general,

[00:31:27] Kirby: that's an ego

[00:31:29] Lauryn: technically. Justice would be, I don't have to forgive you, according to Stoic philosophy, you deserve, um, you don't think that you can be, well, temperance, okay.

[00:31:42] Alright, so I honestly, I was only half listening to the four principles, and like, bravery and courage were the only two I actually listened to. And it was

[00:31:49] Kirby: is only one, wisdom is the other one.

[00:31:51] Lauryn: wait, courage

[00:31:52] Kirby: Courage,

[00:31:53] wisdom, justice, temperance.

[00:31:56] Lauryn: Yeah, justice. I feel okay with because through my definition, I feel like I can, justify a lot of things. Um, that's what justice is,

[00:32:06] Kirby: Honestly, that brings up an interesting point because the thing I like that's so relatable about Stoicism is you get to, like, these are real people who lived. You know, like, it's kind of like reading, It's nice to know the stories around and about them, because if you just read their words, it's kind of like when you just straight read the Bible, but you don't have any, like, reference to what they're talking about.

[00:32:28] Like, it's nice to read books by, like, Ryan Holiday is my favorite stoic author, um, because he tells you, like, their stories. You find out that, like, Despite the fact that Marcus Aurelius did so many of these great things and, you know, was trying his best to practice this, his son was an absolute asshole and was a terrible emperor.

[00:32:46] Like, so he didn't do a good job of teaching his own kid. like Seneca was another v

[00:32:52] Lauryn: a B parent.

[00:32:54] Kirby: Now he's calling, um, Seneca would practice all these like feats of temperance and self control where he would like live without money, but he also amassed a huge fortune and didn't necessarily live on a day to day basis the best way. And he was also, I believe it was Seneca who was also the teacher and like right hand man to Nero who did horrific things.

[00:33:19] Lauryn: I don't think I understand what temperance is. Oh,

[00:33:25] Kirby: so again, like tamping down most of the time,

[00:33:28] Lauryn: I was only thinking about it through the lens of like emotional temperance.

[00:33:32] Kirby: Oh, of like kind of that, uh,

[00:33:34] Lauryn: Don't get too angry. Don't get too excited.

[00:33:37] Kirby: Yeah. And like all of these things are both. Kind of like I said of like there's the personal and emotional, there's the personal physical, there's the how you act with your community, how you act with your business, like all of these things just transcend all those of like, you can take these and a lot of like football teams have done this, you know, there's a couple famous football teams or a famous coach, why can't I think of his name right now, um, who has his entire philosophy with his team is like, what this plays the only play.

[00:34:06] Lauryn: Ted Lasso. Is that who you were trying to think of?

[00:34:09] Kirby: no, like a real, a real one.

[00:34:13] Lauryn: Oh, um, uh, who's the hot coach for the Packers that

[00:34:18] Kirby: Uh, I was not thinking of, well, thank you, but no, but like they just focus on what they can control, which is the next play. Don't look at the scoreboard, whether you're down 40 or you're up 40, this play is what matters. Like you can control right now. You can't control whether they, you know, whether your quarterback gets hurt on the next play or whether they come back or whether they pull farther ahead of you, like doesn't matter.

[00:34:42] What can you do right now?

[00:34:44] Lauryn: 75 percent of the audience is females. We don't understand what you just said. I'm just kidding. I'm kidding. Um, okay. What is, is this number four? Okay.

[00:35:08] Kirby: holidays podcast and his book is like the daily stuff like this practice of checking in with yourself.

[00:35:15] Every day and either having like so like jerk a lot of prompting a lot of journaling of like what what do I need to revisit? because these lessons are eternally forgotten and relearned and improved upon and You need that check in, a lot of these, you know, a lot of people journal daily or they'll wake up with like a prompt in the morning, or they'll do a daily review at night.

[00:35:41] So like Seneca did a daily evening review of I need to keep constant watch over myself. Because if you don't continually reflect or have some kind of ritual to do this, you're going to go off track. So like obviously the, the business version of this is having like a daily goal that aligns with your principles of like what your, what you said your mission and vision are.

[00:36:10] Like are you actually checking in with that? is what you're doing today, Pushing the ball forward, like that's where like those rock schools come in of like, you break down your 90 days, you know, what you're going to do every two weeks, and then you let that two week chunk inform what your daily chunk is going to be.

[00:36:27] And then either like reviewing what you're going to do in the morning and then hopefully at night to have, like, did I actually move the ball forward? Did I, did I accomplish something that met my plan and serves all stakeholders?

[00:36:40] Lauryn: there's a daily stoic journal right that has prompts. Are they the same prompts or are they different?

[00:36:46] Kirby: it's the same prompt for that day every year. So like there's a how I have used it and I have now like 3 or 4 of these filled. is there is a morning and nighttime section. So you read the same prompt, but then you reflect on it in the morning and you reflect on it at the end of the day. How I've used it as I typically do just the morning, but then I use the am for 1 year and the PM for the next year, which for me is really.

[00:37:11] Been interesting to be able from one year to the next to go back and reflect on like where my headspace was and what I was dealing with, at the same time last year,

[00:37:21] Lauryn: Yeah. And to be like reminded just daily of like, my God, I was so concerned about that and it worked out.

[00:37:31] Kirby: yeah, and one and that actually dovetails perfectly because the other one. So there's the daily self reflection and then there's the view from above. So seeing your life from a cosmic perspective, which seeing what you were dealing with last year and how focused you were on that and how like now it's like, oh my God, I.

[00:37:48] Yeah. It was, it's funny sometimes to go back and read the panic or the, deep, deep struggle I'm having with something that if you now ask me, like, what was stressing you out last February? I couldn't tell you, but in that moment it was so big and that allows you to kind of release whatever seems so big now.

[00:38:10] You can go like. It's gonna be next February, and I'm not gonna remember that this was consuming me.

[00:38:16] Lauryn: Mm hmm.

[00:38:17] Kirby: It just lets you hold it all a little bit looser.

[00:38:19] Lauryn: This, so I see how this is all really helpful applied to, um, I don't see like Enneagram three type people like high achiever, like really seeking external validation, like the me, me, me show, do some people, like I can see how it helps. temperance them, temperance them,

[00:38:45] Kirby: Yeah, equi equi equinimidize?

[00:38:49] Lauryn: I could mnemonize them. Does some people though, like, I'm imagining that some people use this as an excuse to not be like, basically this could be the other side of this coin of stoicism is like, well, nothing matters.

[00:39:05] So, you know,

[00:39:07] Kirby: I mean, I would argue that would be more nihilism. I think as you read the Stoics, they There is a underlying morality and sense of honor and duty. So like it kind of gets back to those, those, those core virtues of like, justice is involved in what is the right thing. And what is the right thing is not only what's right for you, but your family and your community.

[00:39:33] So just standing on the sidelines. Would be in just or like, like you said, like temperance kind of goes away. It's self control and discipline. So it is discipline not to get too selfish, but it's also discipline, not to be too lazy. Like it is that middle way. It is that you have. You have a duty, you have honor, you are looking at things from that cosmic perspective of like where you fit in the world, so it can really temper people down of like, I always love the, um, when you get too focused on things to remember, like, or if you get too focused on, say, like your legacy or your own wealth building, and you're doing it for the wrong reasons, like.

[00:40:14] Tell me who was the king of France 600 years ago,

[00:40:18] Lauryn: Right.

[00:40:19] Kirby: like you don't

[00:40:20] Lauryn: this is like memento mori, like, so like, this is the essence of

[00:40:25] Kirby: yeah, remember you will die like and no one's going to like even even Marcus Aurelius who was super famous and one of the most famous emperors of all time, in 10, 000 years. Yeah, like, he

[00:40:39] Lauryn: dead guys. He's not still

[00:40:40] Kirby: and like I said, like, he died, and the next years after he was ruler were terrible because of his own son, like, so like, even in the people who knew him, their opinion of him changed shortly after his death because they, you know, thought he did a bad job,

[00:40:58] Lauryn: Mm hmm.

[00:40:59] Kirby: so, History is long and it'll forget us all eventually.

[00:41:03] So, like, there is, like, you have to come back to those principles of, like, justice and goodness. it's that this cosmic perspective also can help you in business kind of understand why you're here and why you're doing what you're doing. And not chase fads too, because like you could be comparing, you know, you could be keeping up with the Joe and Justin business too of like, you know, we keep going back to a chiropractic thing, but in any business, you can go like, I'm going to chase that shiny object.

[00:41:29] And it can cost you the core of why you're doing, if you'd have no core of why you're doing what you're doing and truly understanding who you're serving and how you're serving them. And you don't have this, this 10, 000 foot view perspective, you can be running in. A ton of different directions and then the daily self reflection may not help at all because while you're doing you're not anchored to any core virtue or principle.

[00:41:55] You're just doing.

[00:41:56] Lauryn: Right. So, I can see why some Christian or religious people would have an issue with this. because I mean, I would love to know like Richard Rohr's perspective on stoicism, but like it's, it's a very, it's a very attractive doctrine. that people are using to guide their life on and get really cool tattoos by.

[00:42:32] Um, and like, I can see where someone, someone, um, is like, you're following the words of Marcus Aurelius. You are making Stoicism your God. You're making Marcus, you're not following the words of Jesus or boot, you know, whatever. Um, You're following, like you've made this new doctrine in a place where Christianity should fail or whatever

[00:42:59] Kirby: I would say, well, one, I think the, I think the Stoics did have a belief in faith. Like it wasn't Christianity because some of them came before Jesus. Oh, I mean like Stoicism, the school of Stoicism started before Jesus and then like was during the

[00:43:17] Lauryn: It makes it even worse, Kirby. Now you're saying this was the OG.

[00:43:21] Kirby: It's funny though, that these very similar principles were in the philosophical realm at the same time. Jesus was there. So like this message was swirling around in the ether. Like, you know me, I'm kind of, um, I can see how all religions and schools of thought tie together. And the most true things are the things that keep coming up in all of them.

[00:43:43] Um, so like, it's cool that these were both kind of cooking at the same time. Um,

[00:43:48] Lauryn: And Jesus was like, Oh, stock philosophy. Yeah, I agree.

[00:43:51] Kirby: he inspired a lot of it. I think the, you know, may have learned some of it. Well, I mean, depending on how you think of Jesus, what did he learn? Did he know everything all the time anyway? Um,

[00:44:01] Lauryn: are getting into some deep waters now, buddy. I can't help you.

[00:44:04] Kirby: No, but I what I would argue is for and I think Jordan Peterson would probably come to kind of the same conclusion of like if one of the when you look at those core virtues, like when you look at like justice of like right and wrong fairness, all those things like what is your.

[00:44:23] What's your measuring stick for that? Like, all philosophies, all ways of living, all religions need to come down to like, okay, what is good and what is bad? If you, you could take Stoicism and completely bastardize it, is it, and make it like for yourself. If you don't have a anchor stone of what you think is good and bad.

[00:44:48] Like, so I, I think there does need to be a God piece in there. And I think that's the place for it. I think to properly practice stoicism, you need to have a morality anchored in that justice place. And that for me is Christianity.

[00:45:05] Lauryn: Okay,

[00:45:06] I'll

[00:45:06] Kirby: want that to be, if you want that to be the teachings of the Torah, if you're Jewish, if you want that to be, you know, the Qur'an, if you want that to be Buddhism, like,

[00:45:14] Lauryn: Right,

[00:45:14] Kirby: I think, I think all of those can still work with Stoicism.

[00:45:18] It's a, it's a practical life framework to put on top of.

[00:45:23] Lauryn: right. Yeah, no, I think that's a good answer. I'll accept that. You didn't realize you were going to be in such a hot seat here.

[00:45:30] Kirby: Oh, I don't mind.

[00:45:31] Lauryn: this was, this was really good. What are some resources for people that are interested in like going down this rabbit hole?

[00:45:41] Kirby: The biggest and best one is everything Ryan Holiday. Um, and like, well, I don't necessarily agree with all of his conclusions, um, on

[00:45:51] Lauryn: What's a conclusion he has that you disagree with?

[00:45:53] Kirby: Uh, he, he kind of lost me during the pandemic, kind of, uh,

[00:45:57] Lauryn: Got it.

[00:45:59] Kirby: everyone shut up and take the vaccine guy,

[00:46:01] Lauryn: Got it.

[00:46:02] Kirby: and, and use stoic philosophy to try and justify that.

[00:46:05] Um,

[00:46:06] Lauryn: you can really, like you said, you can take it and make it do whatever you want.

[00:46:10] Kirby: Yeah, but he has amazing books. He has a podcast. He has, uh, the Daily Stoic book that you can get so that you can, you know, have your reflections. He explains, he

[00:46:19] Lauryn: Okay. How did he take stoic philosophy and make it like you should get the vaccine?

[00:46:25] Kirby: uh, the service to community, I think was his angle of like you, you as a member of society should do what is morally right and good. For the group and like I've I've read a ton of them. I think he sincerely believe that I haven't listened to a lot of his stuff recently other than his books. so maybe that's changed.

[00:46:45] I don't know. But like that, that's one of those. But that's that's a good thing that I think everyone should go through in both religion and philosophy is you should you should find out that your heroes and your teachers don't think and do the exact same as you and everything, um, so that you can truly wrestle with the words and the concepts they taught you at a deeper level, because otherwise you're just a parrot and a follower.

[00:47:11] And especially in like religion, if you don't have that time where you, uh, But go the other way from someone who is your mentor in religion, you've kind of made them your God. So like you need to, you need to wrestle with God a little bit yourself.

[00:47:26] Lauryn: I thought we were just going to get on here and have margaritas and talk about Mexico and this is,

[00:47:31] Kirby: Well, you shouldn't book these in the morning because if it was the afternoon, I would have had a cocktail and probably been less, less spicy than, but I'll, I'll include some links to Ryan holiday stuff. Some of his, his books, his podcast, all that stuff. He's, he's the best one to get into it.

[00:47:46] Lauryn: 15 minute podcast, right?

[00:47:49] Kirby: I think so.

[00:47:50] I haven't, I haven't listened in a while, but, but yeah, I, so I think he does the daily stoke. Oh, and also he is one of the most well read people in the world. So like sign up for his book list of like his favorite books are so good. I've gotten almost all of my favorite books from him. So

[00:48:04] Lauryn: I have not, I have not gotten any of my favorite books from him.

[00:48:08] Kirby: he did. I don't think I saw fourth wing on his,

[00:48:10] Lauryn: Fourth wing was, is not even in my top five, Kirby, like

[00:48:16] Kirby: See, I actually read the books you

[00:48:17] Lauryn: Okay. Oh, did you finish fourth wing?

[00:48:20] Kirby: Yes.

[00:48:21] Lauryn: Okay, bonus content. What did you think?

[00:48:27] Kirby: Um, I really.

[00:48:29] Lauryn: alert. Spoiler alert. If you haven't read Fourth Wing, stop. Stop listening. But you and I. Did you see Zayden coming from a mile away?

[00:48:37] Kirby: yes,

[00:48:38] Lauryn: I mean, you kind of.

[00:48:39] Kirby: percent, especially, and, and this kind of gets to my major takedown of it is I could not get into it that much because it was so a court of thorns and roses or whatever.

[00:48:50] Lauryn: Well, you just haven't read enough. When you start, like, that is a very common thing when you've only read, like, ten books. It's like in this genre, you think like, Oh, this author is just ripping off that author and this and that, like, it's,

[00:49:08] Kirby: Oh, I mean, they're universal themes. Yeah, yeah, they're, they're, I get that, but it's, it takes the, uh, excitingness, I guess, out of it. I, I liked. It's. I liked her journey into getting stronger and more powerful, but again, kind of the trope of like, Oh, and then

[00:49:27] Lauryn: the most

[00:49:28] Kirby: most powerful

[00:49:29] that no

[00:49:29] one's

[00:49:29] Lauryn: this dark Lord is going to help her realize that she's actually more powerful than him. Like, well, okay. But like, keep in mind that's book one of a five book series. So like, does Dane have a redemption trope? I don't know. Don't you wonder? Or do we hate Dane?

[00:49:49] Like, is Dane Tamlin? Is Tamlin gonna have a redemption trope? We just skipped worlds here. We're just So,

[00:49:58] Kirby: I just, I have a lot of other things.

[00:50:01] Lauryn: I know you did your public duty. I appreciate You occasionally reading one of the books that I recommend just to, I think you do it just for market research of like, what is this bitch thinking about in her head?

[00:50:14] Kirby: Yeah, yeah, there is a little bit of that. Am

[00:50:17] Lauryn: Like, okay, am I supposed to be slapping her? No. Oh, okay.

[00:50:21] Kirby: I supposed to pretend to have wings or shadow power?

[00:50:24] Lauryn: no, I need to pretend I have a dragon and he is not physical, but I'm supposed to call her my queen. Okay. Good to know.

[00:50:33] Kirby: Good to know.

[00:50:36] Lauryn: Oh, well, if Ryan Holiday writes fantasy spot, I'm on board. So, well, Kirby, thank you very, very much. This was really helpful. I think you should get a tattoo, um, of. Something that one of these Latin phrases on you and like, it can like spiral up your entire arm and up to your neck and then have like wings on it.

[00:51:02] We're merging, we're merging the book, my book and your book. Just me trying to get my husband to get tattoos, become a

[00:51:11] Kirby: No tattoos so far. I've, I just haven't, I haven't picked anything that I want on my body forever.

[00:51:17] Lauryn: I don't know. All right. Okay, G Slayers, um, we'll have links below for you to like, check out. Um, I don't think we have any other updates. Make sure you are on our weekly newsletter, um, where we send out fun little stories and, um, prompts themselves. And

[00:51:37] Kirby: I want to do a plug for things of like, I think so many people, I think so many people follow you on Instagram and that's primarily where you are, but we do like have other content on LinkedIn, on X, like follow us everywhere. Cause that's not just exact reposts of the same things.

[00:51:53] Lauryn: No. No, it is definitely not. It's a different spin and twist and things like that. So good. That's a good call out. Thank you.

[00:52:01] Kirby: yeah.

[00:52:01] Lauryn: All right. Until next week, she slayers. Bye.

[00:52:05] Kirby: Bye.