In today's episode, I am joined by one of the most influential voices

in modern relational psychology.

Dr. Stan Tatkin, a pioneer in the field of attachment and neurobiology.

Stan's work has helped shape how we understand love, bonding

and the deep structures that govern our relational patterns.

He's the founder of the psychobiological approach to couple therapy, or

in other words, pact a model rooted in cutting edge science and

grounded in real human connection.

His books, including Wired for Love and In Each Other's Care,

have become sacred texts for therapists, coaches, and anyone

committed to conscious relationship.

In this conversation, we go far beyond technique.

We explore what it means to be truly secure, how love can become a safe

haven rather than a battlefield.

And what's possible when we relate from the nervous system

up and not the ego down.

If you are ready to break through the surface and meet love at its

most honest and transformative depth, this episode is for you.

Welcome to the Masculine and Feminine Dynamics podcast.

My name is Loren Kren and I'm a coach, author, and hypnotherapist.

I help you to understand masculine and feminine dynamics.

Let's dive in.

In your bestselling book, Wired for Love, you share something that

deeply resonates with my own truth.

Something I've expressed many times, but I love how you put it.

You write the following.

We learn to love ourselves precisely because we have

experienced being loved by someone.

We learn to take care of ourselves because somebody has taken care of us.

And of course this goes against the kind of popular idea and belief

that we must perfectly love and heal ourselves first before we're

ready for a conscious relationship.

Can you break down this belief for the audience, that, that, that we

should be fully self-sufficient and meet all our needs alone?

Why this is not only misleading, but actually detrimental to true

fulfillment in relationships.

One thing is to look at how infants are.

Infants aren't born loving themselves.

They have no idea what that is.

Uh, we learn to love through interaction, through the, uh,

the skin to skin, face-to-face, eye to eye contact with our

caregiver or caregivers.

That's first and foremost, and we remained, uh, interdependent

in in life, but also we're kind of dependency animals.

I mean, imagine if the, if that were true, would we be here today?

Would there be any mating in the very beginning, uh, that would

create, uh, you know, uh, the species that is the homo sapien.

So it's ridiculous.

It, it comes out of a culture, uh, of meism, of, uh, you know, a self-made

person, uh, radical, uh, autonomy and independence don't tread on me.

This idea of separateness when we are actually more collectivist as a species.

You also speak specifically about the difference between independence

and interdependence, and it ties into the whole, into the whole subject of

what you've been sharing right now.

How would you define the difference between the two

and, and why do so many people misunderstand this in relationships?

We keep trying to find words that fit the culture of the time.

A lot of words get co-opted by social media and are

pejorative like codependency.

So codependency comes out of alcoholism and the coalcoholic who

is supporting the, the alcoholic and is over-focused on that person.

So it's a one-way deal, right?

Um, I take care of you in hopes you will take care of me when you are better.

That goes back to infancy, goes back to childhood.

That is not.

Interdependency.

Interdependency is where you and I are coming together based on

a purpose and a vision at least, and we have the same things to

gain and the same things to lose.

Neither of us are over depending on the other person, it's

not one way, it's two ways.

That's really basically the idea of fairness and justice, uh, based

on social contract theory, that you and I are engaging in a free

and fair union of equals based on terms and conditions, not on love.

Unfortunately, love relationships don't have this structure.

The people do not pair bond according to what is right and

what is good for both people.

It usually has other motivations.

Uh, partners have different motivations for coming together, but they never

really agree on what that motivation is.

And you talk about specifically also the importance of having a sh

shared purpose and a shared vision.

Can you elaborate on why this is so important in order to experience

a safe and secure relationship?

Because human beings, if we really study our species since we've been

on the planet, uh, we have certain qualities, uh, among them great

qualities, like being able to make stuff up out of whole cloth and

manifest things that we make up.

Uh, we make our meaning.

We do all sorts of things that other mammals we think can't do, like predict

and plan and prepare for something in the future that could harm us, right?

Based on what we know.

Unfortunately, we are also as a species, fundamentally selfish

and self-centered, moody, fickle, opportunistic, exploitive,

xenophobic, thereby racist by nature.

Uh, we otherwise constantly, uh, and we're easily influenced by groups.

So we're fundamentally unreliable creatures and when it comes down to

threats to our survival, we will, uh, automatically revert to a one person

system of I me my and you you you, which is fundamentally unfriendly.

And so that's what happens with our relationships.

We have no idea of ourselves, we don't have a purpose.

Any union that doesn't have a purpose is going to start to authorize.

They're gonna start to find fault.

They're gonna find only where they disagree and where they are different.

And, uh, that's not a high level of social emotional intelligence.

Far better is being able to create consensus.

Where do we agree and where we are the same.

So if a couple, just like any union doesn't have a shared

purpose and it's free and fair of equals, it's not, uh, an autocracy.

If, if we're electing to do these things, there has to

be some reason I'm doing it.

What's in it for me?

Well, uh, we're gonna start a band.

Uh, what's the purpose?

To be the best musicians we can be.

What's the vision?

To get a record deal and to be successful?

Uh, that holds us together.

Would we hold .Together if that weren't the case?

No, and not as adults.

So in every other Free and Fair Union where people join and join

up for a reason, we flattened our differences because we have a

common goal, a common, uh, meaning.

That brings us more in alignment with each other.

Get rid of that common goal, common meaning, and we

start to fight each other.

So the moment there is no shared vision and no shared purpose,

both start to revert into, um,

Self-interest.

Yeah.

self-interest.

There's nothing in it for me.

Even, uh, in the very beginning when we, we would, we think group

together, was to, protect ourselves from the environment, right?

From, uh, from the scary sun or the scary moon, or the predators

that are out there, or the weather or, or the, the conditions, right.

We grouped together.

That was our purpose, was to stay alive or to migrate and find

another place to, uh, settle.

It's been that way the whole time.

But as soon as we are nomadic, as soon as we are, uh, like lone wolves,

uh, we're no longer pro-social.

Uh, we're much more pro self and, uh, because we don't have anything

to be interdependent about.

And again, I'm only talking about free and fair unions, not ones that

are forced together, uh, with a gun.

Um, there has to be something that binds people and it cannot be, might is right.

It has to be something attractive, something that I want to do,

something that appeals to me.

And then we also have to come up with how we're going to govern so

we don't harm each other right?

Within the group.

Uh, this is also something couples don't do.

They don't plan for their devils and devils we are as a species.

Yeah, we're great on a good day and on a bad day, we may not be that good.

Uh, we could be terrible.

We can do terrible things in the interests of ourselves.

Um, that's not evil.

That is part of the survival instinct.

So, uh, we might be better at war in some ways, uh, than we are at love

because of that survival instinct and our tendency to otherise, and our

tendency to think that we're always right, um, and others are wrong.

Um, so there are all these features and bugs in the human brain,

um, that are good in one area and not so good in another area.

The example that I just have in my mind is, um, and I'm sure you've seen this

in your practice, you see a couple who has got a good week or two good weeks,

or even three good weeks, they're feeling so connected, they're, they

both feel this partnership is in highest alignment, and then something happens,

but not just something minor happens.

The relationship goes from total bliss to extreme fighting each

other, both in total survival mode.

I believe this speaks to what you're describing here when, when there is

no plan in that sense or agreement.

How can couples prepare themselves in a powerful way where when the

inevitable comes, when challenge comes?

So in, in, in what you just said is less about the survival instinct,

which has a different aspect, a different problem that's universal.

This one is a design problem.

So relationship is, is an invention.

You and I embark in a relationship, but we decide what that is.

We, nobody knows what that is, right?

We're supposed to be the designers of that relationship.

We're the architects, we're the creators.

Couples don't see themselves in that seat, uh, that

position of responsibility.

And so, uh, it's a design problem.

Uh, we feel good we when the weather's good, uh, and when

the weather's bad, oh, no.

Uh, you know, we don't, we don't have a design for that that

makes sure that we're protected.

Make sure that we, we build into the design a feeling of

love, uh, for each other daily.

That's not an accident, but it is if you're governed by

feelings only and not purpose.

Purpose is a higher level of behavior that overrides our primitive nature,

especially under stress, that allows us to remain pro relationship

and pro self at the same time.

And that's a tricky thing in unions because under threat

we will revert to pro self.

Uh, there are mechanisms in the brain that do it automatically for us and

that has to be prepared for also.

We have, that's why I say prepare for your, uh, devils, not your angels.

Uh, because, by design we want to lock this down and make sure our safety

and security is absolutely assured.

That can be done by social agreement.

By social contract, we can agree.

We can look at every area that we are exposed and lock that down to keep

us from doing harm to each other.

We can also, uh, uh, set a purpose up that makes our relationship

thrive, uh, anything you want, right?

The sky's the limit.

It's their design, but we have there, I've never seen a couple

that's taken responsibility for the design or the architecture or

the organization of their system.

They don't do it.

They fly by the seat of their pants, and unfortunately that, uh, mileage varies.

What is one or more powerful agreements that couples can make to ensure that

in these moments when the, when we feel threatened, when old trauma is

activated, old wounding is activated, to ensure that we protect the other

from our own pain and wounding?

I think when coming up with the design, when coming up with a, a centralized

organizing principle, the very, very best in my opinion is that the

couple system comes first, above and beyond everyone and everything else.

The reason is that if we are the leaders, if we are the generals,

if we are in charge of everyone and everything as this new union,

it makes sense that everyone and everything depends on our being happy

and being able to work well together.

Otherwise, everything and everyone suffers and that can be proven.

Health, ability to make money, creativity, um, uh, being good citizens,

uh, happiness, meaning, everything will begin to, uh, fail or suffer if that

couple system isn't in tip top shape.

So that's why the couple must come first, because a couple that doesn't

work well together, uh, people don't usually like to be around and kids

don't, and they can't create anything.

They can't solve problems, they can't make, uh, uh, useful

decisions, they're always fighting.

Uh, and so that just doesn't make sense.

So that's number one.

We are the most important people in this room and in every room.

Um, we come first and then we are better at serving others.

Two, we are in each other's care, right?

I am responsible for your ongoing felt, sense of safety and security,

something I can guarantee.

And when I fail, I apologize and fix it.

Same with you, with me.

Um, I can guarantee your happiness in this relationship.

At least that is how we're tooling it, making it.

You can do that with me.

We can't control having this outside of the relationship.

But within our governance, within our system, within our sovereign nation

that we've created, we certainly can do that if we are serving each other.

And then the, I think the third one, most importantly, is that we,

uh, we guarantee each other that neither of us can lose in any gambit.

That confines us to having to think, uh, at a higher level of

good for me and good for you.

And why would I do that?

Why would you do that?

Because if you lose, I pay for that.

There's no way I won't in this system.

Right?

If, uh, if you lose, right, if I lose, you pay for it.

So it didn't, it wouldn't make sense, um, for us to do that.

We'd spending all of our time fighting and looking back at the past,

uh, injustices and litigate them.

That would be the end, that would be the demise.

So we have to work together collaboratively and cooperatively.

I have to make sure you don't lose, you have to make sure I don't lose.

How do you do that?

Through bargaining and negotiating, not transactional, as a higher

level of being able to be together with all of our differences.

What you say specifically here that, um, the couple always, or

the connection always comes first.

I love that because at the end of the day when a couple is in

a cycle of constantly fighting, the nervous system is in a sense,

chronically inflamed because it's an, it's an ongoing pattern.

It's like, it kinda reminds me of this kind of metaphor.

You cannot help anyone if your cup is empty, you can't pull from an empty cup.

And it's exactly that, isn't it?

Because it impacts our ability, our presence, the way we solve problems,

the way we communicate with others.

People will just not feel us in a state where we can actually

be of service any shape or form.

For example, my wife and I both agree, neither of us would feel as successful

as we've become without each other.

This was not gonna happen with either of us, uh, by ourselves.

And so we, by design, we made that happen by design.

We're still in love today.

It's not a happenstance.

It was, uh, built this way, to keep us doing the things that are necessary, uh,

uh, on based on a purpose not feeling that are required to keep love going,

to keep friendship, fealty going, to keep safety and security going, right?

It's not, we don't leave it to, uh, to the, you know, the feeling of the day.

Which makes it harder because that means we're aiming higher.

We're choosing either what is in this one instance, what is right or what

is good or what is best, so say we both, even though that could be the

hardest thing to do, uh, meaning it doesn't matter how we feel, we still

have to do it, uh, matter how we feel.

We still have to avoid that terrible thing that we could

do that would harm each other.

That is the way I think to live.

And to, and to hack and override our primitive systems, which we

know are going to interfere and, and will want to do something

that serves us but not the other.

And this is what we have to watch out for.

And the only way to do that is by agreement and permission to enforce.

If a, couple comes to you and, and the couple says to you, we never

have time to connect and they're in a state when they have a fight or an

argument, they spend days and days in a state of disconnect, this in

itself would indicate that they're not making their connection and their

relationship the highest priority.

They're not organized.

They, I bet they have no idea why they exist as a couple, uh, other than they

fell in love, uh, which lasts as a good hot minute in the beginning of Covid be

because nature wants us to procreate.

It doesn't care about relationship mind, we do.

Uh, and so, so we have to create it ourselves and not let affinity with

our families of origin, uh, and our laziness to just repeat what we saw,

what we heard, and what we experienced when we had no choice as children.

So this is about growing up and realizing that it's us.

There is nobody else that's going to protect us.

We live in a dangerous world, always has been, that's

indifferent to our needs and wants.

Especially if the chips are down, therefore it's you and I.

So that has been a survival issue across the board forever.

Uh, and you could say that in business there's a survival issue

and, uh, in anything, but especially the military, especially cop car

partners, their lives depend on each other and they become fast

friends based on that shared purpose.

And so, you know, here we're, we're talking about.

adulthood.

What does that mean?

I have to be able to Tolerate pain without acting out in order

for me to feel better, right?

I have to be able to tolerate pain.

I have to be able to, uh, recognize losses, and grieve those

losses, otherwise I'm an angry person, uh, who's still angry

about past injustices, right?

I have to be able to acknowledge and accept differences.

You are not me.

You don't think like me.

You don't hear what I hear.

You don't see what I see.

I have to know the animal I picked.

You're, that's different.

Therefore, I have to be an expert on you.

I have to learn how to handle you in the best possible way and vice versa.

Also, I have to accept the idea that all people are annoying,

irritating, and ultimately disappointing, including myself.

So it, it is a growing up and accepting reality, but being able to use reality

as a way to override, again, are impulses, which is to put myself first

and you or others second or third.

But that ruins my relationships that I care about.

So this is about being smart and understanding ourselves, understanding

how we operate, understanding that this is all human primates, this is

not simply him or her, uh, you or me.

All of us are this way.

Knowledge is power.

The more we understand about how the brain works and how our minds work

and how it doesn't, the better off we can be, 'cause then we can build

structures that avoid the pitfalls that so many other groups have,

uh, you know, have fallen into, uh, since the beginning of time.

To your other point, if I might, there is no upside, once there is

a fight, to not repair it quickly.

So between the time, uh, of injury, whether you or me, and we do not repair

this, uh, that time isn't neutral.

Uh, there's a tick-tock here and it's, it really is shortening our lives.

Because in the breach of a primary attachment relationship, there

is a primitive reaction, a primal reaction of existential threat.

Will this relationship exist tonight, tomorrow that is there, whether

people are aware of it or not.

It goes all the way back to our earliest dependency on our caregiver.

If mommy dies, I die.

Right?

This is death.

So what happens?

We start to produce all these corticosteroids, all these neurotoxic

chemicals, both neuro, uh, uh, neurotransmitters and hormones, that

burn cells, and affect, uh, all four systems of our, of our health, right?

Autoimmune, uh, inflammatory, metabolic, and cardiovascular, and they interact.

So all we're doing is shortening our lives, making ourselves sick and

making the relationship more dangerous.

Plus we're suffering.

There is no upside.

I think there's also a really big difference between saying Hey, let's

take a moment and then let's reconnect with the goal of connection and repair.

But if the goal of repair is not communicated, then I suppose in that

moment, like you said, it's not neutral.

It's detrimental, in fact, to our health and our wellbeing.

Actually all we need is something very simple, and that's the

minimal, but it's often sufficient for the day is, you know, I,

I'm still angry with you, Lorin.

Uh, but we're okay.

The we're okay is, is the key here, because that addresses

that existential fear, right?

That we're not Okay.

Um, that is enough to breathe through the day and not be, uh,

encumbered by, uh, by this threat.

I think a step further would be, you know, fall on your sword.

You know what?

I'm sorry that was wrong when I did.

I shouldn't have done that.

And uh, uh, I have no, excuse.

Just that know why I did it.

No, you misunderstood.

And No but no,

No but.

No what about what you did?

And this is very hard to do.

Hard for me.

Hard for everyone because of our hubris, right?

Our tendency to believe that we're right, uh, tend to believe

that we're the victim and that we couldn't be part of the problem.

And so the art of falling on the sword is how we save all of our relationships

that we care about, that we cherish.

It is essential.

That's why it was event invented.

So we wouldn't go into a jewel to the death, so we wouldn't sue each

other, so we wouldn't go to war, so we didn't lose our children because

they cannot live with us anymore.

it is everything.

And it takes, it takes believing ahead of time that that is the right

thing to do and override that when we wanna do is smash that person, right?

We want to go after that person.

So it takes discipline.

When you do this, when you do the right thing and it's the hardest

thing to do, what happens is our self-esteem immediately goes up.

The other person recognizes we did something that is hard to

do, other people won't do it.

and it encourages them to do it in return.

So you have to try these things in order to know that they do work.

Uh, but this is principle above emotion, and we have to build

that we, that just doesn't happen.

When people go through very painful relationship dynamics and then for

instance, they say, they over glorify someone with a secure attachment

style, for instance, and then they say, well, but I'm actually not

in love with that person, but it's better than what happened before.

And, I suppose it's this, it's this grasping onto

something in hope for what?

For certainty for security.

Can you elaborate a little bit more what you would say to such a

person who say, comes to you and says there's this securely attached

person, but I'm actually not in love.

What am I, what am I experiencing?

This is a problem with the term.

Uh, one person's being in love is another person's Hi, how are you?

And I gotta go.

You know, it, it depends on the expectations.

A lot of expectations are entitlements based on family of

origin, what we learned through fairy tales and music and movies.

Uh, we feel entitled to a certain kind of love being in love, which

is mystifying to another person who doesn't see it that way and threatening.

And so, herein lies.

The problem with basing things on emotion alone that we have

to base things on is what is the best relationship?

What's the perfect relationship for me?

What's the ideal relationship for me that goes in both

directions, not just for me, right?

It's not a doo me kind of idea.

Um, uh, do we, do I want a teammate?

Do I want a an equal?

Do I want someone, um, who is reliable?

Do I want a relationship that is safe and secure by design, uh, with someone

who's willing to do those things?

Do I have a willing partner to, to make a life that we both want

together, and is willing to be flexible and hardy enough to stick with it?

If people focus more on the perfect relationship instead of the perfect

person, I think they'd do better.

People disappoint constantly and you will fall in and out

of love, uh, throughout time.

You will be attracted, not attracted, attracted, not attracted.

You're gonna feel like this, feel like that.

You're gonna wonder why you chose this person at different times in your life.

That's your mind doing its thing.

But the, the stuff we're talking about, coming together, purpose

centered, making each other awesome in a way that you couldn't do, uh, by

yourself, but by agreement, building something, creating something out of

whole cloth and being those people who are, you know, ride or die, right?

We're in it to win it, that gives way for great feelings to arise,

including falling back in love.

There are ways to fall back in love.

There are ways to stay in love, but people don't do them.

People think this is just something that happens, right?

I'm gonna feel my soulmate when they come.

I'm gonna feel in love and that person I'm gonna stay

in love with my whole life.

That's not how the brain works.

That's not how we operate.

We have to design it so that we stay in love.

We have to design it so we don't harm each other.

We have to design it and lock it down that we're not gonna cheat, because

we will, if we, if the opportunity arises and the conditions are such,

we don't know if that can happen.

People do it.

So we design things by social contract agreement.

Let's not do this, let's do that.

And because it's interdependent, in other words, you and I make sure we

have parody, we have the same things to gain and the same things to lose,

that, mitigates or at least lessens the chance that we're gonna take

advantage of each other, that we're going to do anything that would be

unfair, 'cause that will hit us back.

If you think of a three-legged race, if I were to bind, uh, your

partner in you, your inner thighs, together for a month, that would

explain what I'm talking about.

It's a team sport.

You wouldn't be able to move or go anywhere without

agreement and permission.

That's a team, that's a two person system.

Unfortunately, couples don't have a physical reminder and they, they

don't have a cultural reminder either.

It isn't the military where you have to worry about the person

to your left and right because they're gonna save your life.

You're not important, right?

They'll make you do this because you're putting lives at risk.

Same thing with cop car partners, right?

It's a, it's a, a team sport.

It's not a solo sport.

So the same with couples.

It's an orientation and a realization that it's not a luxury.

It may feel like one, but when the chips are down, it becomes a survival

issue and a necessity that we trust each other, that by design, that we know

we can rely on each other by design, that we know what our culture that we

created is, so we know what we can and cannot do, otherwise we hurt ourselves.

And the union.

This is thought, it isn't just felt.

And that is why most relationships won't last, or if they do, they won't remain

happy, 'cause there'll be too much unfairness, too much injustice, too much

in uh, insensitivity for it to last.

How can couples differentiate between whether there is the opportunity to,

to grow and heal together and move towards using your terminology secure,

functioning, or if a relationship isn't just meant to be, it it's

there's a deal breaker or there's something in there that's not going

to allow the relationship to thrive in the way, perhaps both intent to.

Because I'd say it's not always easy to distinguish this.

What is, what is the thin line here between healthy or growth challenges

and perhaps what is really unhealthy and two people who shouldn't be together?

There's really one way to look at it.

Um, uh, what, what is true incompatibility?

Well, you could say, know, our libidos are not aligned.

So we're incompatible.

Right?

'cause libido is really important to me.

Um, we could say that you, that my partner And I have to be

trim and fit and look young.

Well, that's a hard get, but that's the most important, that would be a

deal breaker, 'cause you're, you, you, you eat fat foods and I don't want

to be with someone who's fat, right?

This happens by the way.

But true incompatibility.

Are big ticket items, like I want children and you never want children,

and we cannot come to an accord.

That is a deal breaker, that's not gonna end well.

You wanna live in Europe?

I never wanna live in Europe.

I like living in Los Angeles.

That is going to be a deal breaker.

It's going to, it's gonna be the gift that keeps on giving.

We're gonna constantly lament, uh, over having given up

something very important.

You want monogamy?

I want an open relationship.

I don't see the point in monogamy.

Neither of us are wrong.

We're both free to do that.

We just can't do business together, we just can't possibly

work, it'll be too threatening.

So we have to look at on the big ticket items, where do we actually

disagree, and is that gonna disrupt our long-term happiness?

Is it going to be something we cannot give up and still be happy and not blame

the other person for, and resent them for having given something like that up?

That's, I think, true in, in compatibility.

I think it's also exactly that, that distinction you just made.

It's not that there is no compromise, it's not that there's some form of

sacrifice in the relationship, but it's when it is made as a conscious

choice or when it becomes out of fear of losing the other person, but then

inevitably turns into resentment, I suppose that is the big difference.

Yes, there will always be some form of perhaps one person

says, okay, I agree with you.

Let's go to Europe.

But rather than resenting the other person and being angry at them,

it's made as a conscious choice.

Yes.

if the relationship is, uh, means I have to give up things that are dear

to and, uh, to me that I cherish and that are important for my own

happiness, it's not gonna be good for you or me if I do, if I take the deal,

because everything is predicated on us pointing in the same direction.

Everything's predicated on us wanting to do the same thing, not

having to do the same thing, right?

It's a choice.

It's not with a gun to the head.

It's not because I'll lose you unless I do it your way.

And that's the problem with attachment.

Attachment is the, I can't quit you biology.

It isn't love.

It is a primal, primitive glue that nature has, uh, has created that

holds us together for various reasons, and many times holds us together

when we shouldn't be together.

And therein lies another problem.

Uh, if I can't quit you, I will compromise.

I will give up what I want and need, and I will do it because

I'm a, I I feel I'll die.

Everything will fall apart if I lose you.

Therefore, I will, I will give up what my needs are and that will end up badly.

People do it all the time, and and it's understandable.

It's painful, it's hard to give up, uh, someone whom you're attached

to, uh, and stand by something that you believe is best for yourself.

That's the whole idea of I'm waiting for something that is gonna be better,

not a handsome, not a beautiful, not somebody that is more, uh, wealthy,

but somebody more appropriate for me that wants what I want.

That's what that is.

And so I'd have to.

Have the presence of mind and the in an executive function that does the right

thing when it's the hardest thing to do.

I love you, but it won't work.

I love you, but I have to choose my highest truth, because if I

don't choose my highest truth, it's gonna eventually hurt us both.

I like what you said there also, it's not a good deal.

It kind of really, it's, it's a, it's a really practical way to put it.

I haven't thought about it from that perspective.

In your work, you talk about the concept of thirds, the subtle

of unconscious dynamics that influence how couples interact.

Can you explain a little bit more to the audience what this means and how

understanding thirds can radically shift the way we show up in relationships?

So thirds has been around since Freud and probably before that.

So, um, it's because of the dyadic nature of the mother infant

bond or the father infant bond.

Um, we'll put mother in quotes 'cause the mother function.

And then the, uh, we know through, uh, infant brain development, like

a mitotic uh, process, um, the baby is beginning to, uh, build awareness

of other objects other than itself.

Uh, first with, uh, parts of the body and then with the whole object, the

mother, and then to other things, other objects, including the secondary parent

who becomes, it's a Freud, a rival.

Well, not really in the sense that he said, but it is a, a competition

for one of the caregivers.

Because they're in the way of a very, special relationship

that has not been broken up yet.

I have to share this person, right?

I have to bring this other person in.

So that's called going from diads to triads.

That happens when, uh, couples have their first baby.

And often there's big trouble at that point, because the non, uh, caring

parent, uh, often feels that they're sidelined, often feels that they're

no longer the primary and that can cause a big problem if they're not

prepared for something like that.

So, thirds are anything outside of our orbit.

If you and I are primary attachment figures, which is a biology

psychobiology, actually, um, we're not gonna appreciate being relegated

to third wheel, unless we have that arrangement or agreement.

So this is true even in polygamous cultures and polyamorous cultures, we

tend to pair bonds still, and there's always a primary, the person we run to

when we are in the most distress or when we want to celebrate something awesome,

there's only one person first we go to.

That's usually the primary.

And so when there's, uh, when there are competing thirds, and that could

be, uh, a baby, it could be an in-law, it could be alcohol, it could be

pornography, it could be my work, it could be whatever, um, the other

person will complain because they feel that, that their resources that are

due to them as primaries are being siphoned by someone or something else.

And that is what jealousy is.

Fear of losing something I already have, something's being taken away from

me that I have by this third object.

And that is the problem set up by the person who's mismanaging that third.

If I am cloaking someone in a way that makes my partner insecure and

suspicious, I'm causing the problem.

I'm the culprit.

If I am aligning with a person, not you, then you have every reason

to feel jealous and to feel thrown under the bus by me, 'cause I, that

is not treating you as my primary.

This is a psychobiology.

It's not, it's not rational.

And yet there it is in all of us.

So you either respect that or you get what you pay for.

And this has really disastrous effects if it starts right at the beginning, and

I don't protect you from my blood family or my, my peeps, my, my besties, right?

Um, and it starts that way, it isn't repaired, and that's remembered

throughout the relationship by the way that you, uh, that you threw me

under the bus at the very beginning.

I was thrown to the wolves, you didn't put me first.

You didn't put this first.

And they're right.

This is profound because what you said there around couples come together,

they're in the honeymoon phase.

They, they, they're, they're infatuated with the novelty and

everything, but like you said, people are not prepared that suddenly

when a child comes, they're no longer the most important person.

Or even, two people could come together.

At first, they, they feel the excitement of novelty, and then the other person

realizes, wait a moment, this person actually cares more about their work

than they, than they care about us.

And he comes back to agreement and what we want, and having a

shared purpose and vision together.

They never set up shop.

And so they're scurrying to fix something that was never built.

And that's, that's, that's the problem is that we, we have minds that

can predict things and can prepare and plan for what could go wrong.

And yet in relationships we never use it, which is, which

is the dumbest part of us.

You know, we don't predict our kids.

We just get back into the same thing as if it's new.

We don't predict our partners, we get into the same trouble and get

in the same, uh, arguments over and over again because we don't

realize the manner in which we are interacting is absolutely threatening.

That it's never the topic, it's always the manner in which we interact when

one or both of us is under stress.

That is our animal primitive selves.

Uh, it's being relegated to subcortical processes that are fast, automatic,

and not, and indiscriminate.

In other words, through pattern recognition, I begin to have an array

of threat cues that I see on your face, your voice, your movements,

your word choice, and so on, and I shoot first and ask questions later.

As soon as I feel threatened because of the past, because

of memory, I'm gonna do that.

And that is our, the nature of being human.

That's what we're protecting each other from, is that tendency, that

tendency to recognize threat and to just take care of our own interests

and even push the other or hurt the other person in the doing.

That has to be prepared for, we just like, just like if you

were a dancing team and you were trying to win a competition.

You would not just go in and be live without having predicted what you would

do under those circumstances and plan for it and prepared for the nerves.

You'd be silly to do that.

And yet that's what we do all the time in our relationships.

We just go right back into being live in a threatening situation and expect

it to be any different than it will be.

What would you say to people or let's say a couple, um, where both have

gone through a very intense trauma and they're, they're, they're working on

themselves, they're recognizing deeper patterns, they're trying their best,

but still in these moments, the memory is so strong and is so powerful, it

hijacks their nervous system, that's very challenging for these people.

And there are people who do a lot of work on themselves, but they

still find themselves in the same response and again and again.

What, what advice or or recommendation would you have

for people in this situation?

Well, first, everybody has trauma.

There's no way to get through life without it.

Um, the difference is, uh, uh, if it's unresolved, trauma or loss.

Unresolved trauma or loss.

Uh, leads to an adaptation in the brain, depending on

the age of the person, right?

That adaptation is, uh, is done idiosyncratically by that person child,

which then becomes unpredictable.

How do you not have unresolved trauma or loss?

It's very simple.

You have to have someone nearby in a timely fashion to regulate the state

that arose through this death, this extraordinary, frightening experience.

Um, so that the brain can metabolize the experience.

But if I don't have anyone to regulate that state, I am

going to have to do it myself.

And that's going to be an, an adaptation.

That might be a little strange, because I have to do it, we have to adapt.

So we're talking really the difference between unresolved trauma and and or

loss, and that that which is resolved and doesn't cause behavioral damage

to another person or to, to the self.

That can only be done in relationship.

We're hurt by people and we're healed by people.

You can't do that in a cave.

You can try to do that in individual therapy, that's, that's fine, but where

is it going to be the most impactful?

It's going to be with your primary attachment figure who is actually

a, the real proxy for the originals.

And that's where a third party I think needs to work skillfully with those

two people to, uh, to begin to, help them regulate the states that pop up,

that caused them to go off the rails.

'Cause it's a state problem.

It's a mental state, emotional state, an autonomic nervous system, state issue,

uh, uh, more than just a memory issue.

'Cause state drives memory, memory drives state, right?

They're working together, and that's how we can start to build up and get

very angry, 'cause now I'm remembering all the times you made me angry, right?

They're linked and they're fueling each other.

And that system state also alters my perception.

What I taste, what I smell, what I hear, what I see, and What I feel, right?

Kinesthetically, in wild ways, uh, people don't, uh, even understand,

but it's happening all the time.

That's with us regular folk with regular meaning, not unresolved trauma, right?

We're not burdened by that.

Uh, that just happens.

So people deserve to be together.

They deserve to have love as sir deserve to be coupled, but someone

needs to help, uh, them be safe.

Because what's what's happening with two disorganized partners, uh, is that

they're constantly being triggered and seeing the other person as a

predator and making a lot of errors in doing so, a lot of mistakes,

a lot of confusion, and so that's the single most important thing.

Now, I've seen a lot of homeless people who are, uh, who are secure functioning,

uh, in the sense that they protect each other completely and totally.

They know exactly, how to survive and that their survival is

linked to protecting each other.

Uh, I've seen it time and again.

Uh, they're traumatized.

They have trauma, but they still know how to survive and protect each other.

So there still is a way, no matter your history, if your survival depends on the

two of you working together, people find a way to overcome anything because they

have that central organizing purpose.

Stay alive.

Unfortunately that isn't operating in our psyche at, uh, most of our time

because we're in denial and we, we we, we couldn't be thinking about the

dangers of the world every day, every minute of the day, we wouldn't get out

of the house, but yet they're there.

And so we whitewashed everything and we think nothing bad could happen,

like covid, uh, like, uh, like a world war, like, uh, you know, financial

collapse or, uh, a change in government.

So all these things are ways that we protect ourselves, but

then we also aren't prepared.

We're not prepared to take seriously our relationships

and how important they are.

And, and, and especially the, uh, the, uh, romantic, uh,

para bonding relationship.

Um, we don't realize that it is a survival, uh, unit.

It just isn't being tested.

And then when it is, it's unprepared.

I had love to ask you a million more questions here because your

wealth of knowledge is incredible.

Where can people dive deeper into your powerful work?

Go to the, thepactinstitute.com.

Uh, you can find me there.

You can find, uh, if you're a mental health professional, this started as

training therapists in this model, which is a poly theoretical model.

Uh, always changing and growing.

Um, or if you're a couple, you're interested in workshops, my wife

and I do couples workshops on the internet, uh, regularly, and we

do retreats in fancy places like Italy coming up at a castle, uh, at

the, uh, near the end of this year.

So you can find all the materials there, plus therapists and me.

Amazing.

We're gonna link all of that, your book as well, your social media handles.

We're gonna link that into the show notes.

Stan, I really appreciate your time.

Thank you on the podcast.

Lorin.

It was lovely talking with you.

Thank you for listening to this episode.

I'm so honored to have you here.

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