Welcome to Transit Unplug, the podcast where we ride

along with the boldest leaders, moving people and ideas across the globe.

I'm your host, Paul Comfort, and in this episode, we're hitting the road literally

with one of Transit's top leaders, Dwight Ferrell, general Manager of smart.

That's the Suburban Mobility Authority for regional transportation.

In Southeast Michigan on my recent trip to Detroit, I hopped on a smart bus

with Dwight to talk about how Detroit and its surrounding communities are

flipping the script on regional mobility.

We dig into everything from game changing microt transit programs to how they're

keeping their workforce engaged and what the future holds for a system

covering more than 2100 square miles.

Dwight's got vision, strategy, and a deep love for this region.

And you'll hear how smart is stepping up to meet the evolving needs of

writers across Southeast Michigan.

And hey, what better way to wrap up a transit tour than with a hot,

crunchy slice of Detroit style pizza?

We'll do it today.

So if you're in the real talk about innovation, leadership, and

making transit work for everyone, this is the episode for you.

And don't forget to subscribe if you haven't already, and

leave us a quick review.

It helps others discover these inspiring stories from transit

leaders around the world.

Now let's hop on board with Dwight Ferrell on Transit Unplugged from Detroit.

Great to have you with us today on Transit and Unplugged.

Excited to be in Detroit Motor.

City with our friend Dwight Ferrell.

Dwight, welcome to the show.

Well, thank you for having me.

And welcome to Southeast Michigan.

Thank you.

I love it.

I've learned a lot already.

Been here a day and, uh, , I know it sounds silly, but I didn't

really realize how close Canada was, just across the river,

as they say, a stones throw across the river.

You're absolutely right.

Yeah.

A beautiful city in a real period of resurgence here.

Absolutely.

Uh, the city of Detroit, it's comeback has been amazing.

, the region.

Is growing.

So yes, it, it is really a nice place to work.

A nice place to live.

You and I have been friends for a long time.

You've been a yeoman working around the industry.

You and I were just talking to Rod Jones, my boss, about that.

Tell us some about your background and what brought you here.

Well, I started my career in Dallas a long, long

time ago as a bus operator, and I've worked in seven cities, eight

presidencies since I started my career.

And in doing so, I've seen a lot of stuff and done a lot of.

Things.

And I think that that experience for all those years, , positions

me to help, , transit in southeast Michigan, , positions me to help it grow.

, Paul Comfort: and it's very interesting and unique.

I think that you started out as a driver and worked your way up.

There's very few people I know in the industry that have done that.

I mean, Dottie.

Down in Austin and a few of them.

But, uh, how has that helped you, you think, and, and kind of starting right

at the front lines of what we do?

Well, it certainly helps.

It has helped us in terms of recruitment.

, we are fully staffed on bus operators in the first time and quite a long time.

And a large part was because of experience that I had when I drove.

, and recognizing the changes that employees expect today, uh, help with.

That.

, so we made some, negotiated some rule changes in our recent union

contracts that have really helped us attract and retain talent.

And I think that experience as a bus operator has certainly helped.

I'll also say that I remember when we weren't involved in

decisions about equipment, seats, a lot of those different things.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

You know, coming up, we, we got what we got.

Right.

And so now, uh, I make sure that our mechanic.

Mechanics are involved in decisions that impact them.

Bus operators are involved in the, what impacts them.

I'll give you an example.

When I first got here, I asked supervisors what kind of vehicles they wanted.

They said they wanted something bigger.

Well, we have Tahoes on order, on order.

And so those are the kinds of things that having done, some of those positions

along the way have helped me in terms of,

listening and engaging.

Aging and basically creating an environment that, that

people wanna work

in.

. Paul Comfort: You mentioned, uh, vehicles.

I might mention that we're recording this live in a vehicle.

Uh, tell us about the vehicle and what service this is.

This is flex.

Flex is our micro transit, uh, service that this year carried.

Its 1000000th passenger.

Wow.

Which is pretty extensive in the time that I've been here.

I think we've tripled the fleet over the last four years.

So the demand on it has been amazing.

The demand, the growth in ridership here is outstrips everything else that we have.

And one of the great things about it is it is post pandemic centric.

Okay.

In that, we'll talk about our smarter mobility program later,

but in that we are looking at what travel patterns are now, and most

people are not going more than five.

Or six miles away from where they live.

And so these big Am and PM rushes like we used to have, those are gone.

And so micro transit like this allows us to be able to provide independence for

people who can drive, don't want to drive, and particularly provides access to people

who are disabled but don't live in within three quarters of a mile of a bus route.

So now.

They even have independence.

So you have a whole zone wider than traditional a DA?

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

That's great.

And we're in a, uh,

what is this?

A Chrysler uh, minivan.

This is a Chrysler minivan.

Uh, this service, we contract with a company called Via,

it's a turnkey solution.

They provide the vehicles, the drivers, the software, and what

have you, and it's been great.

And how does this fit into the overall, , potpourri of

offerings that Smart Transit offers?

Well, we have some limited stop service.

That we have, of course we got local service, but our service overall, we

are reviewing right now to have that service mirror what people want today.

That's wonderful.

So the question is about frequency and span, uh, and even equipment.

So ultimately our fleet will be more diverse in terms of size.

Everything's not gonna be a 40 foot bus because everything

doesn't require a 40 foot bus.

So.

All of that has been part of our, our smarter mobility assessment.

And the I important thing about that is that we, we don't do anything in a vacuum.

And so with smarter mobility, we talk to elected officials at every level,

the federal level, the state level, the local level, key stakeholder groups,

citizens to get their input in terms of what the service needs to look like.

The challenge.

That we face is that unfortunately we have people who want more service

than what we have money to provide.

Right?

So that's a good thing and a bad thing.

Yeah.

So Detroit itself has, uh, as I understand it, basically three

different transportation providers.

The RTA right operates the Q line, and they provide funding, kinda

like in Chicago, the RTA does.

To the other operations.

And then you've got smart you guys and then DDOT in downtown city.

I know you're gonna correct me there, but that's why I said

that's how I understand it.

You, you set the record straight here.

So the RTA handles the formula funds our 53 0 7

allocation between DDOT and us.

They also oversee the 53 10 program, which we have an extensive 53 10

program with well over 300 vehicles, uh, and probably over a hundred

community partners that operate those.

Wow.

That's great.

Uh,

, Dwight Ferrell: but we are funded by a property tax that is assessed

in Oakland County, Macomb County in portions of Wayne County.

Like a millage rate for, yeah, like a millage rate.

That's correct.

We don't provide, or we do not tax in the city of Detroit.

Okay.

DDOT

is funded through the city's general fund.

I gotcha.

So, and then the RTA who recently became the operator of the Q line gets

some operating funding from the state.

Now we get some operating funding from the state too, but the, RTA

does not give us money except for that, that is just their 53 10.

Right.

Just

the formula funding, that's yours anyway.

Right.

They serve like an MPO or something.

Exactly.

Okay, I gotcha.

And then a 53 10.

Gotcha.

Very good.

And how, like, tell us about your staff and.

How many staff you have, you know, your services, vehicles, all that?

We have close to a thousand employees right now.

Uh, as I mentioned earlier, we are fully staffed on bus operators,

so we've slowed our hiring down, but we're never gonna stop.

Right.

we have, in the time that I've been here, we've got a contracts in

procurement department, safety department.

We're about to bring online our program management department.

Uh, we've got a strategic initiative department that we just started.

It is going to help us with our.

strategic planning and all of that.

Uh, we are focused, changing our focus, from HR to talent management

as it relates to our staff.

I like that.

And one of the things that I, I would note is one of the things I've learned

over the years when I came here.

I made some observations and there were some things that I wanted to change.

There were people who were in leadership positions who chose

to leave, and so from my original executive staff, I have two left.

Wow.

But everybody who is here, I promoted in this organization.

The only person that I brought from the outside, and technically she's

really not from the outside, is Tiffany Gunter, our deputy general

manager and Chief operating officer.

And, and you're welcome for me introducing her to you.

Yes.

Thank you.

I appreciate that.

Many years ago.

That's right.

And so, so, Tiffany is from this area.

She, at one point worked at the RTA, she was deputy at the RTA.

She was deputy at the MPO.

And I set my sights on hiring Tiffany as soon as I got here.

Took me a minute, but.

You like bring her back home.

Right.

So the, so the idea is that when you bring in a lot of different people

from the outside, they all bring in their different perspectives

and you have to try to mesh those.

That's

right.

That's just way too much work, way too much work when

you have a big task ahead of you.

And so the other thing it does is it creates an environment where people see

that we can grow, that we're appreciated.

And at the end of the day, that's what we do.

If we don't have employees who believe in what we do and engage

in what we do, we are not gonna be able to put out the product that

the citizens expect from us to do.

It's just that simple.

So, um, you mentioned you've got your new strategic plan

you're working on and you have something called smarter mobility.

You wanna talk about that and why it's a game changer.

Right?

Right.

I mentioned that, uh, in the, uh, earlier piece when I was talking about

all the outreach that we've done.

To get customer input about what service needs to look like in the future.

And that service is not going to be a MPM Peaks coming into downtown.

It's gonna be a lot more micro transit, a lot more cross town service.

And the challenge that we have, quite frankly, with the funding

limitations that we have is a question of span or frequency.

Right?

Oh,

that's the classic one, isn't it?

Man, that's always, that's always, yeah.

Started in Houston,

right?

Yeah.

Yes, it's either, either you're gonna have a span of service, that's right,

it's infrequent, or you're gonna have a shorter window that is, um, less frequent.

Now the thing about micro transit, I think that helps us is the cost to

provide that service is a lot less.

Than a, a, a lot of 40 foot buses.

Yeah.

You know, it's funny, some people think Microt Transit is more expensive, but

when you do the math and you compare it, if there's an area that doesn't

really warrant a 40 foot bus, you can send in a minivan like this, pick up

six people in a day, it's a lot cheaper.

It

is a lot cheaper.

The capital costs is a lot cheaper.

The operating costs are a lot cheaper.

And quite frankly, you don't have to have people who have to have a CDL in order

to be able to provide the service, which makes it easier to be able to recruit.

Yeah.

So.

Those are all things that, uh, work in our favor and we want to be smarter

at smart in that transit and customer expectations and employee expectations

are not the same as they were when I started eight presidencies ago.

And I'll let you guys do the math on that.

And so now it is very much.

About how service impacts your life, the quality of your life, and it's not

about those people, it's about everybody.

And recognizing that the next generation, the generation that is ultimately

going to be paying for this generation X, millennial, and Z, they have a

completely different approach to transit than their parents and grandparents.

And that's the thing that we are trying.

Trying to take advantage of, to provide service that works for them.

So you're, it sounds like you're pushing for a more connected

regional transit system and Absolutely.

What's been your biggest challenge there?

Changing minds.

changing people's thought process, which is a challenge for transit everywhere,

not just in southeast Michigan.

getting people to see that.

If you want your region to grow, if you want to attract talent, attract jobs,

you must invest in multimodal transit.

You can't do it by just buses, or buses and micro transit.

So one of the wonderful things about this, this area is that obviously

was built for the automobile.

So you have very wide streets, and I mean these boulevards with wonderful medians.

That would be great for fixed guideway, BRT.

Uh, that doesn't cost nearly as much as rail, uh, that would

be able to connect the region.

And so the other thing is quite frankly, is getting people to

be, to see a different future.

I don't know that we have done that as well as we could have.

And so that's what we are trying to talk about now is not what's

gonna be good a year from now, two years from now, five years from now.

What about 20 years down the road, 30 years down the road?

and then getting people to see the importance of a sustainable funding model.

Yeah, that's good.

That, that, that really is the key.

And this is all great, but if you don't have any cash, it's,

it's, it's just a great idea.

I.

So we're, I'm driving here.

I was fascinated to see, we just drove past the Henry Ford Center with all the

flags out there, and I thought about, you know, the guys that started this

town really booming right back when the auto automotive industry came here.

But now you have a whole new economic development engine,

and I know public transportation is involved in that attracting

talent and employers to Michigan.

Tell us about that.

the state and southeast Michigan in particular wants to

diversify its economy, so it's not so.

Heavily reliant on just manufacturing.

There are a number of, uh, aerospace jobs that are in Macomb County, for example.

and one of the things that I'd like to make sure that we're clear on is

that there is no conflict between automobile manufacturers and transit.

They're supportive of what we're trying to do because they recognize

that some of their future employees don't necessarily wanna own cars.

Right.

So that's a, uh, a big shift.

Uh, if, if, if you would.

So I think quite frankly that Michigan, uh, Southeast Michigan, the state of the

state as a whole is on the, uh, upside.

We are trying to compete with other states in the Midwest for jobs, whether

that be Ohio, Indiana, or whoever it is.

And so that's the piece where transit comes in and that's where we come

in at Smart, is making sure that we communicate that, because we look at

the region in this totality, not just, even though we don't operate in, we

do provide some service into Detroit.

And even though that's not our primary focus, we do know that two

thirds of the customers who ride ddo transfer to SMART every day.

And so they're going to jobs.

Yeah.

So this us connecting the region is absolutely essential.

And we just pulled into the John Dingle Transit Center.

Tell us about this.

Isn't it beautiful?

It is.

I love it.

So, uh, obviously this is a place where we do transfers and, and that sort of thing.

passenger rail is here as well.

And so hopefully, you can, let's see.

Oh look, is this an Amtrak station too?

It is.

Wow, that's great.

So nice.

Interm modalism.

Yes, it is.

Yeah.

And so as you can see, there's a lot of vibrancy around here.

There's a lot of development around here.

Yeah.

Uh, so this is today what it could look like in the future.

Very different.

Uh, it would be great if we could share track with Amtrak to be able to connect

Southeast Michigan to Lansing or, yeah.

Or, or wherever.

That's wonderful.

Um, so, but again, it all goes back to one, one basic thing.

Cash.

There you go.

Oh, we're gonna hop outta the vehicle and we'll come back and talk to you

a few more minutes, uh, after this.

Okay.

Alright, now we're back, uh, with Dwight Ferrell, who's the head of Smart now we're

downtown at the Rosa Parks Transit Center.

, tell our listeners a little bit about what's going on down here when

it comes to resurgence of the city.

Well, over to my left, and, and anybody who wants to Google

this can, it's the Western Book Cadillac.

So that building is celebrated.

Its 100th year.

Last year for a number of years it was.

Not used, and they have redeveloped this into a four star hotel.

The president of the United States stays here, or anybody who was running

for president, in the NFL draft that we had, uh, last year, all of

the draft picks were at this hotel.

Okay.

So it is the spot to be, and it's a, it's mixed use because there are condos on

floors 24 through 30, and so that's more,

and it's served right here by transit in the middle things.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Uh, as a matter of fact, the express busted, uh, the

RTA runs starts right there

. Paul Comfort: Is that right?

This is the book tower, which is across the street.

This has come online within the last year.

These are, uh, high-end apartments, okay.

If you, get a chance while you're here, Washington Boulevard, which is a block

over from here, has been complete.

Redone and so downtown you can live, you can work, you can play.

There are tons of restaurants in downtown Detroit, and it's not just Detroit, but

the, but Southeast Michigan as a whole.

Yeah.

But the perception that people have that, you know, Detroit is some,

you know, third world country.

Yeah.

That is simply not true.

All

right,

so now we're in your famous Buddy's pizza.

What are we gonna get here?

We're gonna get some good pizzas.

What we're gonna do to warm us up on this nice brisk spring day.

There you go.

All right.

I'm gonna, uh, I'm gonna ask my boss here, rod.

So Rod Jones is here with us.

First time he's been with us on a, on a video shoot.

Thank you for coming, rod.

you've eaten this pizza before, right?

What am I expecting here?

Now?

I hear it's deep dish and crusty.

, Rod Jones: it is.

I mean, uh, I don't know how much, uh, I want to disclose before you taste.

Okay.

All right.

Uh, but there are some, purists who have a hard time with Detroit style.

So Really?

Uh, yeah.

So why is that?

Well, I, I think, you know, Chicago has a, feels a certain

way about their own deep dish.

Oh, yeah.

Uh, we're, we're different.

, I'm a big fan of it and actually this is my first time in this location.

I've, I spent more time in, in , in Southfields, , buddy location.

So, uh, so it's pretty cool.

Alright, I can't wait.

We're gonna come back , after we taste it, we'll all give our, uh, our reviews.

So, uh, okay.

Dwight, this is great.

One thing that's cool, we haven't really set it on the podcast here

is how we're right down near one of your, where your sports stadiums are.

Tell us about that.

Oh yeah.

This is, Detroit is unique in that you can walk to the football stadium, the baseball

stadium and the basketball hockey arena.

They're within three blocks.

They're within three blocks of one another.

It's amazing.

It's absolutely, the baseball stadium and the football stadium are literally

across the street from each other.

Yeah, I'm just looking at it right now.

Not the freeway, the street.

So you serve a large area, smart does, and, um, talk to us

about that and how you make sure that your, your services are aligned with

the real needs of the whole community.

Right here from Detroit all the way out to McComb.

So we serve a 2100 square mile area.

That's massive.

Yes, that is.

It is, , 500 square miles larger than DC system.

, so our focus really is not so much about meeting the needs of today, but

meeting the needs of the future.

And with that, in order to be able to do that, that's gonna require sustainable

funding that allows for us to be able to.

Take advantage of all the technology that's out there.

It makes it easier for people to be able to switch between systems.

So we are doing some of that now.

, even right now, we have a, a joint agreement with, , the Detroit Department

of Transportation ddo, for transferring between one system to the other.

Okay.

And same thing with the, . The Q line.

Q line, yeah.

So, which is like a street car, right?

It's a street car, yeah.

So we're just gonna build on that.

, Paul Comfort: the last thing I wanna talk to you a little bit more,

which I really love what you do.

You and I are both people focused and, uh, you're known for engaging your team with

gold stars and a culture of appreciation.

We saw that today.

We got on , your articulated bus, 60 foot long with photos of all your

employees, their names, and how many years they've worked at your agency.

I've never seen that before.

What a wonderful tribute to your employees.

Tell us about how important internal morale is to external service.

employees make the difference.

They provide the service, they do the work.

And so they don't, if they're not engaged, then we don't have a good product.

They are the product.

So the gold stars started about, uh, if you think back to when you were a kid, I,

you know, you wanted to have a gold star.

That's

right.

I remember when I took piano lessons, she would give me a gold

star in my book when I played good.

And it is crazy, but it made me feel good.

Well, it, you'd be surprised at what it does to adults.

Yeah.

And so that's how we came, that's how I came up with the Gold Star.

So we have gold star pens, they've got the, , smart logo on them.

And there was a book, The one minute manager back in the nineties.

Oh yeah, I remember that.

Yeah.

And so that book was talking about management by one, walking around.

And most of the time people are walking around looking for something wrong.

I walk around looking for something.

Right.

And so those gold stars are those, those one minute rewards.

, it makes a difference.

And I if you'll note that, on one of the other side of the bus.

Uh, one of our employees who has 44 years of service has three.

He wants to, he's a three star general, wants to do something so he can get four.

He is absolutely, and that engagement, , you can tell by just

being in the environment where there's much more conversation,

, between hourly employees and staff.

, when I go to the facilities they say, Hey, Dwight, how you doing?

Or Mr. Ferrell, or whatever the case may be.

So they know who I am.

I know who they are, and it makes a difference.

That's wonderful.

Anything else you wanna share before we wrap up?

Smart's a great place to work

and

smart's on the move.

All right, so we're back.

Just as a little coda to the podcast.

We all just had the pizza, and I'm gonna tell you it's fantastic.

I should have recorded that guy.

When he was saying what it was about, what struck you the most Rod, about the pizza?

Uh, you've been eating it for many years.

Uh, well, first off, I don't get any.

Chance to, to, to dine here all that often.

So it was a nice reminder.

I, I think the cheese, the texture, uh, I had the Detroiter.

So for those of you who are trying it for the first time, you gotta

do the Detroiter at Buddy's Pizza.

So I loved it.

I had a great time.

Yeah.

And what, uh, they, they press the dough daily, fresh.

They make it here.

It's uh, it's deeper dish, it's crusty, uh, and it's got a delicious flavor.

So.

Fantastic.

We give, I give it five stars.

Do you?

Yeah.

Six stars.

Six stars outta five.

There you go.

All right.

Now you know.

Thank you for listening to this week's episode

of the Transit Unplugged Podcast.

We're so glad you're here.

My name is Julie Gates.

I'm the executive producer of the show, and our goal is to create

programs that promote the great things going on in the transit industry

by providing you with behind the scenes access with industry executive

leadership so we can work together to find innovative industry solutions.

We would love to have you be a part of the Transit Unplugged community by

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Head to the show notes to find the link.

Thanks for listening to Transit Unplugged with Paul Comfort, our favorite transit

evangelist, and we'll catch you next week.

Thanks for tuning in.