Hello everybody and welcome to the VP life podcast,

brought to you by vitalityPRO.

My name's Rob and I'll be your host on today's episode.

Today we're sitting down with a longtime customer of ours, Mark.

Mark has been dealing with chronic mould and Lyme disease for several years now,

and today's episode highlights his story of how he's gotten out of the worst of it.

We discuss what mould and Lyme are, what tests you need to run, why doctors aren't

always the answer, and what interventions really move the needle for Mark.

We discussed a lot in today's episode, well Mark does, so if you lose track

be sure to check out the show notes linked in the description below.

Then I'd like to ask you a favor, our little podcast is slowly gaining traction

and we'd love it if you could leave us a review wherever you listen to podcasts.

This will help us grow, reach more people and allow us to host future guests.

And with that, on with the show.

Yeah.

If you'd just like to maybe quickly introduce yourself, tell us a bit

about yourself and, um, then we'll just quickly run through what Lyme disease is.

Yep.

Hi Rob.

Yeah, happy to do so.

So my name's Mark Spenlove.

And I'm now just a few days ago, I turned the age of 58.

Uh, I'm a charter financial planner.

I have my own business and, um, yeah, I, I, I became very,

very, very unwell back in 2012.

12 year, well, nearly 12 years ago now.

It's quite hard to believe.

Um, and the journey has been running since then.

Really?

Okay, fair enough.

I think that's fairly common among people who do struggle with Lyme.

Uh, I think it's probably a good idea just to quickly run through what Lyme

is, uh, for anyone who's not in the know.

Um, so Lyme disease is, as you know, is an, is an infectious disease,

uh, caused by a specific, uh, tick.

Um, it's then obviously transmitted to humans when they're bitten.

It presents predominantly with the bullseye rash.

Uh, so as you know, A sort of circle within a circle, like

a bulls eye on a dartboard.

It often actually doesn't present initially with, with

pain and they're often missed.

I mean, and then you end up with early stages of the disease, uh,

which really represent bad flu.

So a lot of fatigue, swollen lymph nodes, um, headaches, chills, that sort of thing.

And if it's caught initially, it's caught quickly.

It's something that can be dealt with relatively easily, uh, with

antibiotics like doxycycline.

Um, however, if it's misdiagnosed or left, it can turn into what's

called chronic Lyme, um, which is a disease that creates quite a lot of

controversy within the medical community.

However, it's anecdotally talked about and experienced by enough people that

there, it, it does appear to be a very real syndrome and, and, It's called the

great imitator for a reason, um, because it imitates so many other things, which

is why it's so hard to actually track.

But yeah, it's, it becomes chronic and people can develop symptoms of

fatigue, joints in their, pain in their joints, uh, neurocognitive

issues, issues with concentration and memory, and this can go on for years.

Getting back to your initial, to your story, Mark, how did you

really discover that you had Lyme?

What sort of, and what ultimately led you to this?

To explore this idea of functional medicine and then looking

for alternative treatments?

Well, Rob, in, initially in, uh, 2012, I was, um, as, as I

mentioned that, that's when I first became unwell and it was, we've all

had flu and we've all had bad cold.

But this was something very, very unusual and I knew it was very unusual.

Um, and, but basically it was almost like.

The only way I could describe it is like my, my entire body shut down, just said

enough, uh, I hadn't felt right, uh, since the start of 2012, and then on the 2nd of

July, you always remember dates like this, on the 2nd of July, my, my, my life and my

world just turned upside down basically, so, um, I'd gone from beginning of the

year, being a super fit, long distance fell runner to basically not being able

to get out to bed, couldn't sleep at night, was falling asleep during the day.

That's where it all began, really.

And that's where the mystery of trying to find out what was what

was wrong with me initially, just before I completely collapsed.

It was in the middle of summer, I had a really bad bout of flu for a

couple of weeks, thought I'd shaken that off and then, uh, you know, the

big bang it, I ended up in hospital, I had some tests done, uh, I was

eventually in hospital, I was initially diagnosed as having post-viral fatigue.

So when I questioned what, what exactly is post viral fatigue, um, I was

told it's something you'll probably get over it in four to six weeks.

I now know and, well quickly learnt that post-viral fatigue means we can tell

you very, very unwell, but we haven't got a clue what what's wrong with you.

And a lot of your blood readings look fairly normal.

Your white cell counts slightly elevated, which shows you've had some

kind of infection, but everything else.

Um.

It's normal.

So that, that's where it started.

I, after two months of barely being able to get out of bed, I didn't sit in the

downstairs of my house for two months, didn't work at all for six, seven months.

I obviously started doing a bit of research myself in between the bouts of

brain fog and cognitive issues to, to try and find out what the hell was wrong

with me because, um, NHS England was, um, was not providing any help whatsoever.

I did actually come across Lyme disease after a couple of months.

So I did go to my GP and said, I think I might have Lyme disease.

We do a test.

The doctor laughed at me and said, Mark, believe me, you have not got Lyme disease.

Um, you can only, you can only catch it from ticks from deer.

And he mentioned the bull's eye rash.

Have you had a bull's eye rash?

I said, well, not that I'm aware of, but I don't know.

He said, no, you haven't got it.

But I'll, I'll, I'll do the test anyway.

So I had the NHS test done, that came back negative.

So I, I kind of dismissed it and put it to the back of my mind until, uh, three

years later when I had a discussion with someone who, who'd been through something

similar and, um, pointed out to me the, basically how absolutely useless and

waste of time and money the NHS test is.

It pretty much always, always gives, um, a negative reading.

So I learned a little bit about that and then decided to go

down the private testing route.

Fair enough.

Uh, and at this stage, uh, were you sort of functional back at work?

Uh, what was this sort of your day to day like?

Were you, had you, were you any better?

Had you sort of been able to regain some sort of day to day

functionality, do you think?

Um, yes, but on a scale of people you should say to me, you're

100% Absolutely super healthy, Mark.

Where are you on that scale?

And looking back, it is always difficult to pinpoint, but I'd probably say 30%.

I had

some periods where I was still functioning at 10, 15%.

Basically I've managed to keep my business going.

Uh, thanks to two wonderful people who I'll be eternally grateful for

their assistance during that time.

But, um, no, from, from 2012, I, I, obviously, I didn't see the downstairs

at my house for two months, as I said, I didn't work for seven or eight months.

Sort of doing little bits, uh, but my concentration and my cognitive abilities

had gone from being sort of Mr.,

they used to call me Mr.

Spreadsheet at work.

Okay.

To literally just not, not be able to do fairly basic, simple things.

So I was back working, but I was having to massively manage it.

And at the time when I had the private testing done in very

early 2016, um, I still felt like an alien had taken over my body.

That's the only way I can describe it.

Uh, sleep was all over the place.

Yeah.

Lots of pain.

Felt like neuropathy.

Pretty much, totally unpleasant and totally, you can't really describe

it to people because it's not, it's not, people say, oh, is it like flu?

Is it like, you know, aches and pains and fatigue?

And none of that does it justice.

It just doesn't do it justice.

It's just completely, totally, utterly overwhelming.

Yeah.

And that's, uh, it's very real.

My own experiences do line up with that to some extent, although I must

admit I never really struggled with the sort of initial neuropathies.

Uh, mine was and still is mainly sort of neurocognitive,

the issues I've dealt with.

I know we've sort of discussed your sort of, your health journey in terms of

things you started doing and You sort of, your adoption of the Bulletproof Diet,

which is, for people who don't know, sort of a targeted ketogenic approach

where you, for the most part, eat fats and proteins throughout the morning

and then sort of have the bulk of your carbohydrates in the evening, which can

greatly help with sleep and recovery from, from exercise, day to day life, etc.

But Anyway, Mark, when did you start introducing those sorts of, for the

want of a better word, modalities?

I mean, you've always been active, so you've always been aware of

diet, but when did you start looking into, uh, sort of non mainstream

modalities again, that would diet supplements, that sort of thing?

Well, relatively late in the journey is, is the honest answer Rob.

Because I'd always had a quite healthy diet, because I was a fell runner,

um, Yeah, I kind of, I tried to maintain that sort of diet, because

When you're fatigued and it's, it's, uh, it's overwhelming, brutal fatigue

and you're cognitively not great.

So what you don't want to be doing is too many things outside your comfort zone.

So I tried to keep my little comfort zone in my routine and tried to get enough

sleep and try to eat reasonably well.

Supplementation was always in there and I did increase supplementation.

But I think things are really starting to, the problem when you've got Lyme disease

is when you're trying to treat any kind of detoxification, any diet alterations,

any new supplements, your body sometimes doesn't react terribly well.

So you end up trying things and then dropping them fairly quickly because

they make you feel so unwell and you're thinking that can't be doing me any good.

And it probably is, it's just something that is too much for your body.

So it was a case of really just trying to build my body up.

Um, the biggest mistake I made in, in this entire journey is, uh, getting

my results back in early 2016.

I was positive for Lyme on what's called an EliSpot test.

Uh, EliSpot tests are very accurate because they test what's going on

in your body at cellular level.

So they're much better than an antibody test.

And I also tested positive for a co infection called Ehrlichia.

Which is very common.

Apparently to ticks that live on sheep and I used to spend three quarters of

the year running through fields full of sheep in a pair of shorts, which is

probably, you know, common sense is that's where, that's where you picked it up.

Ehrlichia is, maybe I'll mention a little bit about that and

some of how it manifests itself.

Um, that's a fairly unpleasant coinfection to call it.

To pick up.

So in, um, instead of 20, I think it was during 2015, I, I was having regular

bloods done by, by the GP and one of them came back, I got a call from

the GP saying there's a abnormality.

And basically I had a super elevated, um, ALT reading in the liver.

So, um, we.

The doctor said, well, we'll just test again in a month's time, so I had a test

done in a month's time, and it was, it was even more elevated, and he said,

are you, the doctor actually asked me if I was, are you, are you drinking,

because you've got, your ALT reading is, is, is similar to what we'd see on

alcoholic, and obviously I hadn't touched a drop, I couldn't, couldn't tolerate it.

So, um, there began a separate journey, uh, private consultations,

uh, scans, all kinds of things.

Uh, and one of the things that Ehrlichia, when I actually found out about it

and started reading about it, Um, in a book about Lyme, you said Ehrlichia

always manifests itself or shows itself, um, during its cycle, um, by, it will

elevate the individual's ALT readings to the extent that the doctor will

think you, um, you've got a problem with alcohol and it just absolutely

matched what had happened with me.

But the biggest mistake I made was actually going to the GP and saying,

I've got these private results and lots of GPs in England, I believe,

actually, say we can't, they're not NHS tests, we can't, you know, we've

got to discount them and ignore them.

Um, so they, these were tested in Germany by a company called Armin, Armin Labs

in Germany, um, they're EU accredited.

The test results are accurate and I proved that by six months later

having tests done again at a different clinic in Germany and the results

were identical, absolutely identical.

So the doctor said, actually, I do believe an EliSpot test, yeah, we use

them in the NHS now, very accurate.

I do believe you've got Lyme disease, but I haven't a clue what to do from here.

What do you want me to do?

over to you.

It's like, wow.

So I'd done a bit of reading and I just, in desperation almost,

you're just thinking, well, if this is what it is, maybe, just

maybe antibiotics will clear it.

With the benefit of hindsight, that was a bad decision.

Once you've had it, as long as I'd had it, antibiotics are not going to clear it.

So I did two months of combination antibiotics, doxy and the rest

and super, super big doses.

And, uh, No, it certainly didn't get rid of Lyme disease.

It gave me gut issues and other issues, of course.

So that was a big mistake.

I think that in itself probably set me back rather than pushing me forward.

So I think you said at the beginning, Rob, that Um, you mentioned the bullseye

rash again, latest research shows that only approximately three in 10

people actually get a bullseye rash.

So when, when the GP said, have you had a bullseye rash?

I said, well, I don't know.

I don't think so.

And he said, well, you haven't got Lyme disease then.

Well, there's still a 70 percent chance I did have it because that's the, you

know, people don't, don't show with that.

So, um, that was quite difficult.

And then.

Um, I'm fast forwarding really now right, right into 2019 is when I

started making some serious changes and do you want me to mention the thing

that I think ultimately cleared Lyme?

Yeah, let's get onto Ozone.

Yeah, well, I was going to mention Disulfiram.

Okay.

Well, yeah, let's start there, too.

Okay, so in I think it was late 2018 some new research came out

showing a drug that was already on the market called Disulfiram Um, had been

successfully used to treat stroke cure, um, lots of people with chronic Lyme.

So I read about it and looked at all the research and then went about, decided,

you know, it's desperation measures.

You kind of just, you know, it's a pharmaceutical drug.

I didn't like, I didn't really want to take a pharmaceutical drug.

Um, but I did and, um, I wouldn't put anyone off trying it if, if you're

desperate, but it's, it's a fairly unpleasant pharmaceutical drug to take.

You've got to, you've got to be on a low copper diet and there's so

many things you can have and can't have and you've got to do with it.

Um, so I started taking Disulfiram.

After nine days I thought, this is, this is kind of going alright, I've

managed to nudge my dose up a little bit.

Then on day ten it was, I could describe it like being hit with a truck.

I managed to do six weeks on it, and it was six weeks of pure hell.

So it, it just caused so many other things.

I, I find out subsequently that Disulfiram is a, is a mild, not a strong,

but a mild collator of heavy metals.

Which is not a good thing to be doing when you're trying to clear.

Lyme disease and your body's quite, quite weak and not fully operational.

So I think that, that probably played into it, but I, I, I had some more

Lyme tests done in, before I tried it and they were pretty much the same.

And then the next set, I didn't have another set done until early 2020.

And that's when I came back negative.

So it wasn't feeling right because the problem is it, it, it, it, it, it, It

weakens your immune system so much, and I think it, I'm not saying it damages

parts of your body, but there are parts of your body that are still out of balance,

and, uh, And I think once you've cleared the infection, that's where doing some

of the alternative, in inverted commas, alternative things, really comes into its

own, getting your white cell count back up, getting your immune system functioning

better, getting your detoxification system and lymphatic system working better.

So, so, Disulfiram is a, is something that, I don't know, did it work?

It might have been pure coincidence, but it turned a positive test into a

negative one, albeit I didn't get tested again for 18 months after I finished it.

Yeah, it was definitely the main needle mover for you there.

Do you think that there was any sort of die off reaction potentially when you were

taking it, or was it just the potentially the sort of the heavy metal chelation

side effects that you were experiencing?

It's probably, probably a bit of both, Rob, because look, the reality is

if you've got something as infectious and as clever, it's a very, when you

start reading about the bacteria, it's very clever how it can turn itself into

a corkscrew and drill into your muscles.

It can build biofilm to hide from your immune system.

Um, hence the reason why antibiotics, they, I think they, after a while, I

think they almost laugh at antibiotics.

You know, it's, oh, they're trying that again, that's not, you won't get

us, we're, you know, we're too clever.

There's a little bit of that going on.

Um, so, so I think, I think it was probably a bit of both.

I had actually, before Disulfiram, that's not, I kind of jumped to

the thing that kind of moved the needle, if you will, a little bit.

Albeit, I still felt absolutely bloody awful, even though I did

these negative test results.

I mean, there's a little bit more to the story there, but maybe

we'll move on to that later.

But, um, yeah, I tried, um, herbal protocols.

So there's the Boone protocol and also what's the other guy called?

Lee Cowden, the Cowden protocol, where basically you get a package

of different herbs, which will be things like cat's claw, antimicrobial

things, things to support your detoxification, your livers, your kidneys.

I tried all those and whilst I think if you've got chronic Lyme my personal

view is you're going to need more than that to clear it from your body.

But definitely, you know, that, that will start, that will do something and,

and you definitely do get a die off reaction from even from herbals as well.

So it's a difficult plot to pass because you know, you're on

herbals, you start feeling awful once you try and up your doses and.

Some people say, ah, just keep going, push through, push through, but it's,

it's easy to say that when you're on the outside and you haven't got chronic Lyme

and you don't know the body's reacting and feeling and, um, you just feel

like you're going backwards sometimes because of the die off reactions.

So, unfortunately, knowledge now says you, you're going to

have some die off reaction.

It's whether you can manage that or whether it manages you.

Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's definitely an uphill battle for lots of

people, especially sort of within our current, um, community slash medical

establishment where there's just not enough support or awareness of the issue.

Um, now, I know you've also sort of, and this is maybe a bit of a tangent,

but it's, you've experienced a lot of mould issues along with that and, um,

mould and what are called CIRS issues, which for everybody is a chronic

inflammatory response, it's sort of an over inactivation of the immune system.

Um, Those have also been part of your journey.

And when did you really sort of pick up on the fact that maybe

Lyme wasn't solely the issue?

And that you had these issues with mould as well.

Yeah.

Okay.

So I think, um, Lyme was definitely the instigator of everything back

in 2012 or whenever I picked it up before then, um, 2014, I moved from

a shiny new modern house into an old farmhouse, which had lots of extensions.

Um, that, that was pretty difficult, um, feeling how I felt at the time.

Um, I, I don't know, there was something about the house that, um,

I never felt particularly well there.

So, right through from 2014, imagine I moved into a house

which, at the time, I didn't know.

I subsequently found out in early 2020 I had a really serious, I mean, serious

mould problem, which I eventually identified and had the house tested.

And basically the report came back saying, basically it was one of the

most toxic houses on the planet and in particular the area around the

bedroom I slept in for six years.

So, um, that kind of environment with a weakened immune system, um,

the reason, the way I came across that was in early 2020, I had another

set of Lyme's done that came back negative, Ehrlichia was negative.

But my CD 57, which is a test for.

Uh, chronic immune suppression, that, that came back at it's lowest ever reading.

It was lower than it had ever been.

And basically the lab said, look, you haven't got Lyme, you haven't got

Ehrlichia, but there is something going on in your body that is absolutely

crippling your immune system.

So back to the, put the thinking cap on.

And the only thing I could think I tested was, uh, was to do a urine mycotoxin test,

which some people say, well, they're not really indicative, but, um, but, but, but

they are, I won't go, I won't delve any more into that, but, uh, Regenerous Labs

in Surrey, I did a mycotoxin urine test.

Um, got the results back, opened the results thinking it'll all

be negative and I'll just have to draw, put a line through that one.

And I came back with, um, a super, super high reading of one and

quite high reading on another.

So suddenly you go, well, you read about it and it says, well, that can

only come from a water damage building.

that has to be a mould that's giving off mycotoxins.

So I say I went, went about getting the house tested.

Uh, all the, all these things cost a small fortune by the way, and probably,

yeah,

probably outside the reach of, um, you know, most people in terms of cost.

Fortunately, I could afford to get that done.

I got that done.

And so, yeah, so I, I've been, I've been basically living in mould with no immune

system, which is, weakened me even more.

So even though the Lyme had gone, I was still extremely unwell.

Probably worse actually, in early 2020, than I'd ever been.

You know, sort of seven and a half years later.

The only way forward from there is you just go, well look, I've I've got to

move out because you can do all the detoxification protocols in the world if

you are still living in that environment and breathing that in every day.

So the house went on the market, I sealed that part of the house, well the worst

part of the house off, got air filters and all kinds of things and special candles,

did what I could and um, yeah, sold, sold the house for well under market value.

But this probably sounds a bit dramatic, I suspect if I'd stayed If I'd carried

on living there, me, you and I would not be having this conversation now.

No, I'm sure you wouldn't have.

One way or the other it would have finished you off.

It's, uh, yeah, mould is nasty and, uh, as we know, it really does interfere

with mitochondrial function as well.

So I'm not surprised you felt as bad as you'd ever have.

You essentially had no ability to create cellular energy, uh, with those sorts

of infections running through your body.

At this point, I think in your story, you, uh, is this when you'd more or

less started finding out about, um, hyperbaric oxygen and, uh, the other

modality that seems to move the needle for you, which we mentioned earlier,

which again was, was ozone or was this sort of further on in your journey?

Ozone was just a little bit.

Further on the, um, I moved, I moved out of.

The, uh, Toxic House in sort of late August 2020, rented a house for 12

months and people think, I read stories of people who say they moved out of

a mouldy house, they felt awful and two months later they felt fantastic.

two, three, four, five, even at the end of that year in that house before

I bought the house that I'm living in now, which again is a new, shiny,

clean house because I'd store anything that's old and anything that's been

messed with and may have a mould issue.

Um, during that 12 months out of the house, I felt bloody awful.

And I think looking back, I think a big part of it was the fact that, you And

when you're out of that environment, your body can actually start to recover

some detox, some natural detoxification.

And right about that time, I started using some binders and I

did a protocol with, um, Cell Core.

If you don't mind me mentioning,

not at all.

No.

It's, uh, another

company, so Cell Core are, they have sort of proper detox protocols

and binders and support supplements for mould, viruses, heavy metals, et cetera.

They, they were, they were helpful.

And, and the worst thing really was more, it was still fatigue and still kind of

The neurological symptoms.

Neurological.

It's not really dizziness, Rob.

It was more, it's more just you feel like slightly drunk and yeah, you,

you have sort of balance issues.

So the thing I did whilst I was renting, I realized I, one of the things I needed

to, to try and involve myself in was, um, doing far infrared sauna treatments.

Um, so I looked into that and the hassle and the expense of trying to

find somewhere and going and doing it.

Uh, then look, I did a bit of research on this and so, so I ended up buying

a sauna at a, at a extortion at cost from a company called Clearlight

who really do make the best saunas.

Um, and again, I, I won't bore you, you know, all the research Rob on saunas,

cardiovascular health, detoxification.

So I started using the sauna and when when I started using the sauna, the bloods I'd

done before I bought the sauna, I still had a very, very super low white blood

cell count and 12 months after using the sauna, I'd gone from very low into a

normal range, nothing else had changed.

I'd, I'd previously tried every immune supplement on the market,

vitamin C, mushrooms, you name it.

I tried it, nothing moved the needle on white cell count.

It had to be the sauna.

And there's a lot of research and evidence that suggests sauna does,

does increase white cell count.

Um, so I did, yeah, I used sauna quite a lot.

I did, um, something called, you know about this, called the niacin protocol.

Um, which is pretty difficult to do.

I've done that two or three times now.

And sauna is still, still a big part of what I do.

I try and get it, get in it four or five times a week.

So the first real alternative thing that moved the needle for me was sauna.

Again, having to be careful to build up because your body is still quite weak.

Yeah, definitely.

And what sauna does is by itself, it, uh, the various heat shock proteins

that it activates, you increase, uh, NRF2 expression, which as you

know, is a molecule that helps increase levels of glutathione on

the body, which is essentially your master quote unquote detox chemical.

Um, and that by itself can sort of create, uh, a lot of these detox reactions, which.

people tend to experience.

And then of course, um, you are also, uh, creating a lot of, uh, oxidative stress in

the body, uh, purely as a result of being in an heated environment, which again,

uh, can cause a lot of inflammation.

And when you're already in an inflamed state, it's like putting fuel onto a fire.

So yeah, it's, it's definitely something you've got to work on.

Yeah, no, absolutely.

It is slightly paradoxical because you read about sauna research and

it, um, all the research says it, it, it deals with, um, inflammation.

But as you say, if you already got inflammation,

it's like turning a big ship.

It actually creates more Inflammation initially, which is before it actually

starts to dampen it down and, and you're right about glutathione and

we've had a discussion before about glutathione, even to this day, yeah,

to this day, I still struggle, um, to tolerate glutathione as a supplement.

And if anyone's in any doubt about the power of glutathione as you mentioned,

it's, it's the master antioxidants and detox thing for the body.

Um, Yeah.

The, the reactions you get from it, uh, uh, when you, when you're

unwell can be quite extreme.

So,

yeah, especially if you have, um, as we've discussed sort of

offline, uh, a potential inability from a genetic standpoint, you have

maybe a deletion in one of your detox pathways at a genetic level.

Um, if you have, an issue such as that, and then you introduce something

like glutatione you can sort of not overburden the system, well actually

that's exactly what it is, you're creating such, there's such a contrast between

how your body's been able to sort of excrete broadly speaking, these harmful

substances previously and what it can do now that you're sort of almost put

to a state of shock and, uh, in sort of more broadly speaking medical terms,

it's called Herxheimer, this whole concept of a detox reaction, which is

normally associated with antibiotics.

Uh, but it works, the term works for, for any detox reaction.

And yes, so

There are a lot of people who, who have that genetic disposition

as well that don't know about it.

Um, it's, it's in the, um, we, we've talked about the

Dirty Genes book by Ben Lynch.

That's great, yeah.

Ben, Ben Lynch on YouTube videos explains when you've got this genetic

disposition, um, how your body doesn't recycle the glutathione,

doesn't deal with it how it should do.

And it's, um You look at things, I think, wow, you know, just like it's

on a level where you're trying all these things and you go, there's one

simple thing that unless you do some DNA testing, you, you would absolutely never,

ever pinpoint that as being an issue.

But if it's an issue, you.

Well, almost certainly you shouldn't be probably probably shouldn't

be supplementing glutathione.

You need to look at ways of doing that by different methods because

your genetic disposition is not going to suddenly disappear, is it?

No,

not at all.

And you sort of, you're looking at, like I mentioned previously, you're looking

at upregulating other pathways and supporting methylation, uh, which is.

Essentially a process why, where your body sort of turns on and off,

uh, other enzymes and processes in the body utilizing, uh, supplements

like broccoli sprouted extract or sulforaphane again to upregulate your

body's natural production of glutathione.

Um, and then, yeah, also looking at these sorts of cofactors to support

the production of it to begin with.

So your various B vitamins, um, your inositol, cysteine, glycine.

uh, compounds to help stimulate and produce the raw materials to help

produce this, uh, yeah, this end result chemical that you, you desperately need.

Well, as you know, Rob, I'm, I do take the Broccoli Sprout supplement and

things, some of the core factors like B2, molybdenum, selenium, et cetera.

Have you noticed any changes to molybdenum yet?

I mean, I know we're trying, you're trying to trying it to sort of, uh,

potentially offset some of the sulfite reactions that you may be having.

Um,

Yeah, I think, I think the, I think it's finding the, as we, as with

more things, when you, I started, and I probably started with two, two, the

dose was too high and I've suddenly done a bit of reading on the molybdenum.

I've reduced the dose now.

I just take, just take one tablet in the morning and that's it for the day.

So, but yeah, I think, uh, I think I've noticed a difference with that.

I think selenium is very good as well.

Um, again, being careful not to overdose it.

Yeah, no selenium toxicity is a no fun in and of itself and again it's

something that a lot of people tend to just mega dose because it's seen to

be a fairly safe supplement and it is to an extent but again, if you already

have high stores within the body and then you're sort of taking any well any

mineral any supplement in general Uh, and because it's stored very easily, you

can sort of reach a toxic level and then experience well, uh, side effects, not too

dissimilar from those sort of experiences, people, heavy metal poisoning.

Um, so it's definitely something to be aware of.

That's for sure.

And I think.

That's, uh, where people do need to test and they do need to have a

baseline understanding of where these levels are and taking supplements

willy nilly, especially in compounded, uh, formulas, um, can actually be

detrimental, uh, at the end of the day.

So it's definitely something that has to be tailored.

And, uh, I think that's probably where people were.

Well, that's what we see in our, in our business, specifically the supplement side

of things do need sort of guidance is, is.

Is knowing what to take, when to take it, how long to take it for, and how much to

take, opposed to just say taking something indefinitely and then sort of hoping

it's going to be this, this cure all.

So,

yeah.

Um,

yeah.

And then at this point, yeah, sorry, go on.

I was going to say, so, so, sauna was a, a big, um, a major

purchase, um, on the alternative side, as I say, I still use it now.

I don't regret buying it at all.

The only, the only thing I've done to that subsequently is probably 12 months

ago, I, I, uh, uh, I bought a specific red light therapy tower for inside it.

Oh, yeah.

Quite an expensive purchase, but that's, yeah, that's, um, I just, just find

that quite, um, Some people think, well, some people I think wrongly think,

oh, just some red lights and that, that can't be harmful, that can't be.

Um, when you first start using it, you do actually, it can make you feel

a little bit strange on occasions.

Um, and again, probably overused it initially.

And now the research seems to indicate every other day is almost optimum.

So that's every other day, that's part of my morning routine.

Um, should we jump forward to, um, hyperbaric oxygen and, uh, ozone?

Because I think it's That's very kind of interesting, exciting area as well.

Yeah, let's, let's jump into those, why not?

So, um, so the oxygen, hyperbaric oxygen came into the equation because

I had some, I had some testing done with a functional doctor which, uh, I

won't mention the name of the doctor because he, some people, people

either love this guy or they'd say he's a, he's a crook and anyway.

So I had this testing done and he came, he's written books on CIRS

Chronic Inflammatory Response Syndrome.

And he said, if I was writing a book again today, your results,

they'd be, they'd be in the book as, you know, this is classic CIRS.

And so that's one of the problems I say, you can clear Lyme, you can move

out of mould and detox, but if you've still got an immune system that's not

settled and is overreacting to things, you're still going to get inflammation

and fatigue and things like that.

As part of that I had, uh, he did some brain, some brain imaging as well.

And he said to me, I hadn't told him this either, he said, do you,

do you have issues with your balance when you, when you stand and walk?

And I said, I do actually, yeah, it's, it's sometimes when it's bad.

So the only I can describe it as, it's almost like walking on a boat that's

in harbour and it's rocking around.

And he said that, and so he started explaining, it's the rear part of your

brain, you've got poor blood flow there.

And then he started telling me about the training he'd had done on,

on the dementia Alzheimer's side.

And he said, pretty confident that if you don't do something and reverse

this brain issue, it's obviously a blood flow issue to your brain.

If you can't reverse that, you're, you're, you're probably looking at

early onset dementia in 10 years time,

Charming

obviously scares the hell out of you.

So you start doing a bit of research on certain things, keeping yourself

active, keep your brain active, watch your diet, don't smoke, don't

drink too much, et cetera, et cetera.

But then you come across some research and you go, wow, that's kind of, that's wow.

Um, so there's some research, particularly out of, Israel showing people in the

early stages of dementia using hyperbaric oxygen chamber, and it was just quite,

quite mind blowing some of the results.

So you're thinking, well, that's an area I need to, I need to have a look at.

So having seen all the research out of Israel, I decided that But the only thing

I've got going for me is, is a fairly short brain and the, the prospect of

losing that as well was just too much.

So I looked into, it's quite big in America, you look in the UK and there's

a couple, some of the sports centres have a soft chamber hyperbarics.

I was going to go and use one locally and I just thought,

what the hell, you know, this is probably a long term thing for you.

So I, there's a company down south called, uh, one of the only ones

in the UK that actually do them called, um, Ensure Hyperbarics.

They're in London, I think.

Yeah, so I read a lot of the research, lots of rugby players

and other professional sportsmen in the UK use them for, uh,

recovering from injuries and things.

And, um, yeah, so I decided to rent one for six months.

So you sign a contract for six months and if you decide to buy at the end they

knock the six months of rental off, so I thought, well, let's, let's give it a go.

And it's, um, it's again, something you need to start off slowly with,

but it is, um, I always say it's the, sometimes you can take a supplement or

some detox agent, or you can spend too long in the sauna, different protocols.

and they make you feel instantly quite lousy.

Hyperbaric oxygen, it's a, it's a very, it's very gentle because you,

you're literally just lie the chamber.

You can breathe oxygen or not.

It's the pressure's as important inside the chamber as the oxygen.

But you literally, you can take your laptop in, you can take a book in, you

can take music in, you can do Yeah, so it, it can be quite peaceful and

relaxing, but it's quite, it can be quite brutal as well, because as you know,

most of those nasty things living in our bodies, and we've all got them, they,

um, they're anaerobic, they don't like oxygen, and you keep pumping oxygen into

your body, Particularly in areas where if you've got inflammation, your blood

flow to certain parts of your body, i.

e.

my brain and my lower limbs, isn't very good.

But when you, when you're breathing oxygen in, uh, it's too much for your red

cells that just goes into your plasma.

And then the pressure of the chamber just pushes that everywhere in your body.

So it'll just push it through areas of inflammation.

So you'll be getting blood flow into areas that you haven't had it for a long time.

And the reality is you are going to start killing things in your body.

So you can be laid there reading a book and it all feels

wonderful and nice and jolly.

But it might not be so nice and jolly two or three days later.

Again, there are certain things with it recommended.

Uh, we discussed them before.

Always just like when you use the sauna, always take some kind of

binder, as you know, I like Cell Core cause they're natural and they're

not harsh and they don't strip all the things out of your body.

I like the Cell Core binders, um, but always take them after hyperbaric

oxygen, hydrogen water before you get in hydrogen water complements

the oxygen you're taking in.

And, um, Yeah.

I mean, they're just amazing things.

Uh, but again, you know, lots of research, they help children with cerebral palsy,

they help people with dementia and all, you know, sportsmen with injuries.

And after six months, I was looking at sort of, um, do you want, do you want

to, do you want to write a check for 12, 000 pounds and you can keep it or do you

want to hand it back and you own when you are and you own when you are and you

go like, I'm kind of 57 now, 20 years.

25 years, 500 quid a year.

Probably worth it.

So, so, I am now the proud owner, hyperbaric oxygen

chamber in my spare bedroom.

So it's, it's a little bit like a um,

Biohacker's delight, yeah.

Yeah, it's like a, little bit like a clinic.

A little clinic here with sauna, hyperbaric, red light.

And the recent addition, as you know, is a little, home ozone kit as well.

Yeah, this seems to be a great time to talk about ozone.

Um, tell us about your experiences with ozone.

Um, ozone, I think is pretty amazing stuff, but again, something you've

got to be a little bit careful with.

So with hyperbaric and reading by oxygen and things, uh, that kind

of naturally led me onto ozone.

And then I started reading about something called 10 pass ozone, where

you book yourself up to a machine in a clinic, specialist clinic, and they

remove roughly 200 mls of blood, they saturate it with the ozone and put

it back in, then another 200 comes out and they do that 10 times, i.

e.

the name 10 pass.

And amazingly, I found one of the only clinics in the UK that does

it, a 50 minute drive from my house.

So I've got to, I've got to go and check this out.

So I went over and, uh, actually on my first visit there, I met

the, he's often not there, but I met the guy who owns the clinic.

That's Nick.

Yeah, seven years prior, he'd actually, he'd been

probably as unwell as I am.

He said, I can't, I can't remember, like, I couldn't remember the

last five years of my life.

I'd just been in a daze.

He had Lyme, he had chronic Lyme disease.

So he tried lots of things and, Saw lots of doctors and paid lots of money for

things that were completely useless, uh, and that's one of the other issues which

we won't go into today about, um, bugs.

Doctors along the way, that are always, you know, quite happy to put

their hand in your pocket, um, and they don't do a great deal for you.

And, um, and he, he realized quite quickly as I subsequently did that

nobody knows your body better than you, nobody knows how you feel.

And after a while, it's almost instinct, you know, what's going to

be right and how far to push things.

And he said the two things that work for him massively, massively, just completely

changed his life was ozone therapy.

Yeah.

And mega dose vitamin IV through a IV through a cannula,

uh, vitamin C, mega doses.

And he's a, he's a, he's a nice guy.

He's got a clinic and he says to me, well, I don't make that

much money off the clinic.

I just like helping people.

He just, I'll tell anybody for free, the things that work for

me and the things that didn't.

And then people can take that away and make their own decisions on

things, which I think is great.

I think, you know, community of people like that is great.

Personally, I think he's better than any functional doctor, uh,

certainly better than the NHS.

Um, so Yeah, so I went on to his clinic and I still do, I had a

quite an intense session of them, 10 pass, and I still go once a month.

Yeah.

I have some vitamin C, 10 pass, ozone, and so recently he told me that he has

a, He's had an ozone kit at home so he does his own ozone treatments at home.

So he put me in touch with the company in America who supply the equipment and

I've literally now just got my tank of oxygen and this weekend I'm going to

hook it up and just start doing some home treatments, very gentle, very slow.

But ozone, my first experience of ozone, bizarrely, was, um, I was having some

quite specialist dental work done at a dental practice down south and the

lady there is, uh, trained in ozone treatment and, uh, keep, you know, lots

of ozone injections and there's part of the treatment to keep infections away.

Yeah.

And when I was done, once you said, um, this is before I knew about the

mould and any kind of infections.

She said, we'll do some ozone in your ears.

So it's a syringe into your ears and we'll do some, you'll do your

nasal passages next time you come.

So nasal passages, just a very, there's a technique to it, but

basically you're sniffing ozone up into your sinus cavities.

And I had that done not knowing about the mould, not knowing that

I subsequently found out I had an absolutely enormous sinus infection

up there because of the mould.

And within 20 seconds of breathing ozone, which she told me ozone is 3,

000 times more powerful than bleach.

Yeah.

Read into that what you will.

So within 20 seconds, literally the room was spinning.

And I spent the next 45 minutes laid flat in the dentist chair being fed

vitamin C, glucose, all sorts of things.

It was like I had a severe case of Parkinson's.

Yeah.

And she just said, she used the phrase, wow, you're toxic.

And of course when they find out, obviously what, what had happened

there is ozone is super powerful at killing things in your body.

I didn't know I had this massive infection in my sinus cavities and basically it had

just killed so much stuff in my sinuses.

I was having like a top overload, toxin.

reaction in my body.

About two months after that, I actually had a nasal, um, a sinus

test done and I had a massive, what they call Marcom's infection there,

um, which took me, crikey, more than 12 months to get on top of.

So that was my first, my first experience of all.

I was thinking, wow, this stuff really is amazingly powerful.

Yeah, no, it's, it's an incredibly powerful

antimicrobial in of its own right.

And for anyone interested, we will, uh, just name drop Dom and the Health Bunker.

I think he's in Halifax.

Is that right?

For anyone who would

That's right.

The, the, the health bunker in Halifax, and they've got, they do Tempast, they

do insufflations of ozone, which we won't go into too much detail about.

Nah.

Just look up the word insufflation, you'll realize what that is.

They've got an ozone sauna, ozone water, lots of supplements, and lots of

vitamin IV drips, and It's just amazing.

I think it's an amazing clinic and what he charges there, it's kind of

like a third or a quarter of what some of the clinics in London charge.

Just amazing.

Yeah.

Sounds like a humanitarian more than a sort of, uh, guy going

off to the profit margins.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

We'll have to, uh, have a chat with him at some time.

Yeah.

So in this, this whole journey of yours, we, we've worked through

you initially trying to figure out what this infection was.

Your sort of failed attempts at trying to get it dealt with through sort of

conventional doctoring and, and the NHS, uh, your sort of journey basically

through figuring it out yourself, working through the mould diagnosis, uh, through

the Lyme diagnosis, then the mould.

Then, then, and then the CIRS um, and then the sort of these series of

potential treatment options, which will obviously link below in the show notes.

Um, what are your next steps?

Cause obviously you're not out of the woods yet.

You're, you're a lot better and this is stuff we've discussed offline, but should

we quickly sort of touch on the next steps in terms of looking at genetics?

And then trying to figure out how we can improve your ability to,

to detox a lot of what's going on.

I'm happy to lead some of this as I know it's new to you as well.

Um, but yeah, you're sort of where you plan to go with this next.

Okay so, yeah it's fair to say that I'm, I'm out of the woods.

I don't know, I have certain little periods where I think I'm back in

the woods but I know by pulling back, sometimes, I think we've got

a similar personality type Rob, you know, we, We don't like to leave

anything on the table, it's got to be, if we're going to do anything,

we do it to the best of our ability.

Now when you've got that, when you've got that kind of personality type,

you are, you are bound to, it's almost impossible to avoid overdoing things,

you put, push the envelope too much, which in the early stages, is really bad.

It's not terribly pleasant in the latter stages where I am now sometimes, but,

but I now know that if I just pull back a little bit, right, a few days rest, no

sauna, no this, no that, the body settles.

And I think a lot of it, for me, it has to be detoxification issues.

It has to be

definitely,

which, yeah, it ties in with the glutathione issues.

And, um, so at the moment, as you know, I am now awaiting some DNA results,

which apparently will be within two weeks and then going to upload those

on to the website that or the webpage, uh, facility that Ben Lynch has.

Where you upload, upload the raw data and it gives you this, uh,

wonderful DNA report telling you, um, if you have any detox issues,

glutathione, et cetera, et cetera.

You know more about it than me, Rob.

Although I think we're both still kind of learning, but realizing

the importance of doing that.

Definitely.

Because sometimes some of these things can be insurmountable.

But sometimes, as we know and learned, they can be fixed by.

Some tinkering around the edges with, with either diets, but primarily with

certain supplements and, and I think, well, knowledge is power, isn't it?

And I think when you are aware of these things, you know, that your

body will have certain limitations.

So pushing that envelope, you might go, well, I'm just not going there

again, because, um, My body will, I now know why my body reacts like that.

I just wish, look, you can't turn the clock back, can you?

No.

You know, hindsight is, the most accurate science in the

world, because it's never wrong.

But if one thing I would have done sooner in this whole journey, before,

before, uh, so on and before, uh, ozone, et cetera, et cetera, is DNA testing.

Absolutely.

Definitely.

That's anyone thinking of anyone that's thinking of going on this journey or is

unfortunately on this journey or having to go on this journey, I think DNA

testing quite early in the journey, it will open up or close some of the other

offshoots on the road on the journey.

Yeah.

And just to elaborate on that, I think where you've got to,

and for anyone listening is.

What, what Mark's done is he's done a tremendous job in sort of killing

off a lot of these infections and sort of binding them up with, with certain

supplements, the Cell Core ranges he's mentioned, but being able to properly

excrete a lot of these harmful byproducts is really, well, as, as you now know,

uh, sort of the ultimate step in getting rid of a lot of these issues.

Because if your body has a, what's called a polymorphism or an inability to

genetically produce the, the antioxidants, the detox chemicals required to help

eliminate these toxins, you can pretty much do almost everything in the book.

But if you're not excreting the end result, it's still going to

sort of exist in your, in your, in your being, in your body and create

further inflammation and sort of not, um, allow you to properly heal.

And I, and I think Hopefully, uh, this will be the, uh, the final piece in the

puzzle for you and allow you to sort of ultimately excrete and then it will allow

your body to enter a state of homeostasis where it's more likely to actually heal.

And so, yeah, definitely sort of, as you said, putting that back, taking,

taking that step and sort of maybe putting it first in line so that you

can actually sort of identify whether you're capable of excreting many of these

substances is really, really important.

And it's not just looking at glutathione, as you know, it's looking at various other

pathways, uh, your methylation markers, uh, your CMT genes, all of these play

an incredibly important role in detox.

And yeah, no, I think it's It's just so overlooked.

And again, it does not require, uh, a PhD to understand this stuff.

Ben Lynch's book, Dirty Genes is amazing.

The report strategy, which is hopefully what we're going to sort of

dig into in the, in the coming weeks is what he, uh, what he provides.

If anyone who's interested, It's Stratagene.

com, uh, they accept, uh, DNA reports from Ancestry.

com and from Self Decode.

And those, unfortunately not 23andMe, but, um, yeah, those other two they do accept.

And then it just allows you to, to look at your, what Ben Lynch terms,

dirty genes or the genes that you have that are causing you, you problems.

So yeah, your methylation markers.

Yes.

Absolutely.

I, I, so I went with DNA Ancestry just because it's, it's straightforward.

It's not expensive.

I think it was £85 with the posting.

Uh, yeah.

And those results was here in two weeks.

So I, I, within a two to three weeks, Uh, I will know and I will

be discussing with you, Rob, because you know a little bit more about it

than I, um, you know, glutathione, methylation, where are my issues

and, uh, and how can we address them?

So, so, yeah, so I'm, I think I'm out of the woods in a way,

because I'm so much stronger now.

I mean, we've looked at my latest immune results and white cell counts, and

everything's just massively improved.

Yeah, they're stellar.

Um, I'm still, I'm, I'm, I'm back exercising fairly regularly, but

sometimes I just have to back off that, because exercise and sauna and things

like, they're all stresses of the body.

So yeah, so that, that's where, that's where I am.

And, um, The two things to take away is one, get the DNA stuff done quite

early doors, it's not expensive and it'll just, it may stop you going

down certain avenues or may, may make you focus on other avenues.

And don't expect too much from, well don't expect anything from the NHS, it's

probably the best way of putting it.

Now, that's not, I'm not, I'm not going to call GPs, you know, they go

to medical school, but a lot of them went to medical school in the 70s

and 80s, that's what they learned.

And they haven't learnt a lot since.

And they're, it's an educational thing.

So I'm not, you know, doctors work hard and they have a, they provide a

valuable service to people in the UK.

Um, when you can get to see one, that is.

Um, but, you know, it's an educational thing.

Most of them are absolutely clueless.

My doctor said, look Mark, I just, I just don't know what to do.

You, you know, you seem to know all about it.

I said, well, I've just, I've read some books by certain people that

are supposed to be the experts

. So it's a bit of a strange situation when you have a GP saying to you,

well, you tell me, you tell me what you want me to do and, and I'll do it.

Yeah,

it's kind of quite bizarre.

So.

It's definitely an issue with the system.

Uh, doctors are trained, uh, essentially to be pharmacologists.

They are trained to sort of.

assign a certain drug to a certain symptom.

If you have a headache, here's an aspirin.

If you're depressed, here's your SSRI.

They're unfortunately not trained to look at the sort of the cellular

biology and the biochemistry.

And, uh, and that's, and again, that that's no fault of theirs.

That's just what they're taught and how they're taught.

Um, and then, yeah.

So I was going to say Rob, even the pharma, well the pharmaceutical

industry is the biggest culprit here because, um, and again, going off.

Slightly going off on a tangent here, but long COVID, long COVID, there's

been, there has already been enough research done to suggest that in the vast

majority, I mean the vast majority, i.

e.

probably 9 out of 10 cases at least, what's going on in those

people's bodies is reactivation of Epstein Barr, glandular fever.

So 90 something percent of the country's.

UK has had it, a blood test will tell you that, and it lays dormant in the body.

Now if something like COVID comes along, you catch it.

Decimates the immune system.

And your immune system, your immune system, if you get influenza

or a cold, it goes, ah, I recognize you, but you're a slightly different

version of the one last year.

But when Covid comes along, your immune system's kind, what the hell is this?

So your immune system's under enormous pressure.

It's in a big battle and it's, um, I suppose the analogy I use,

it's a little bit like, uh, uh, trying to get into a nightclub

and the bouncers won't let you in.

And then the bouncers have to run off, down the road to deal

with a, a, a, a bigger crisis.

They leave the doors open where you go in and you, you have fun.

And that's, that's, it shows people have had, got reactivated EBV,

which again, we've discussed the fact that 10 pass ozone therapy

is amazing at getting rid of EBV.

Yeah.

Um, I mean, there's a cost issue there.

But it definitely works on things like Lyme, EBV and, and other quite powerful

things that are difficult to get rid of.

Yeah.

Well, as you mentioned, it's, it's getting straight into the cell

and because it's such an effective antimicrobial and an antifungal

and an antiviral, it, it really is.

an effective medium, uh, whereas, uh, and that's purely, well, not purely, but in

large part, because it's able to break down biofilms so effectively as well.

Yes.

Whereas traditional antibiotics generally just dance around on the

surface and actually aren't able to, to get through those biofilms.

And that's a large part of it.

Uh, we won't get into it now, but we've, uh, we've discussed in the

past your your experiments with proteolytic enzymes to try and break

down a lot of these biofilms and your subsequent disgust of them thereafter.

But, um, just, uh, just in the sense that you've had some quite, some quite strong

reactions to things like seropeptidase and, uh, lumbrokinase and those sorts of

compounds, but yeah, no, it's, um, I think

those are very, one for another day, but those are very, Very useful

supplements to, for some stage of the journey, maybe not, maybe not in the

early stages, but they are, yeah, they are very powerful and, um, super good

at clearing biofilm and other things in the blood that shouldn't be there.

Yeah, proteolytic enzymes really are amazing.

Um, not only do they break down mould biofilms, as we've, you've just alluded

to, but they break down the proteins in the food that we eat, uh, they can

help, uh, heal leaky gut, they can help reduce inflammation, uh, when they get

into the bloodstream, they can break down, uh, certain inflammatory molecules,

they can enhance exercise activity.

And recovery actually, um, they really do just deserve their own podcast.

So, yeah, I think that wraps it up.

We've, we've covered a lot today.

Um, it's definitely something everybody's going to have to maybe listen to again.

So yes, thank you for your time.

Okay.

Thank you, Rob.

I know we'll be looking at your strategy and report from Ben Lynch's lab

in the next couple of weeks to uncover some of your genetic issues that may be

hindering your ability to detox properly.

So I look forward to that as well.

Thank you for your time.

It's really been a pleasure having you on and having you go through

this with us and I hope it's of value to someone in the audience.

We'll chat to you soon, Mark.

Take care.

Thanks.