there is a certain level of audacity you have to have because to be a

writer, you're not just saying, I'm, I'm processing my thoughts.

this is cathartic, This is, for me.

No, as a writer you're saying this is for other people.

This is, uh, for the pub, for public consumption.

And there is a level of audacity there.

But I think along with Audacity is the humility not to take

yourself too seriously.

So you need the boldness to put your words out there, and then you need

the humility for some people to be like, I hate that, uh, that sucks.

What do a book editor, a pastor, and a writing coach all have in common?

In today's episode, we're joined by Will Parker Anderson,

a man who embodies all three.

As a senior editor at WaterBrook and Mult, no and Imprint, A Penguin

Random House will has helped shape powerful Christ Center messages

into books that reach and inspire.

He's also the founder of the Writer Circle, a growing community and podcast

that equips nonfiction writers to sharpen their craft and publish with

purpose, with a passion for the gospel and a deep understanding of story

will walks alongside authors to ensure their words glorify Christ, connect

meaningful meaningfully with readers.

conversation, we explore his unique leadership journey, one that spans

publishing, pastoring, and platform building and the wisdom he's

gained helping others tell their

story.

Well, will welcome

to Seek, go

create.

Thanks, Tim.

Great to be here.

Excited to talk with you.

Excited, excited

that you're here too, man.

I'm really excited about this.

I've cranked out a number of

episodes this

week, kind of batching

Yeah.

you are kinda like

my exclamation point.

Oh, I'm honored.

this, we're recording this on a, we're we're, we're recording this

on a Friday and this is kinda sort of for the listener, but it's a

little bit for me personally on some

stuff I'm working on.

So,

Perfect.

we're gonna have fun.

Will, before we get into that though, uh, would you

rather

answer the what do you do,

you know, kind of

typical networking thing

or who are you pick it and

just start

answering.

Yeah.

Love that question.

It's a tough one too.

So I actually transitioned from being a full-time pastor for over

10 years to being a book editor.

And that transition brought this question to the fore in my life because suddenly

what I had been doing pastoring and what I thought I would do forever shifted.

And so I'm gonna go with, in this season, uh, who I am is probably more important,

and I would answer that a number of ways.

I am, uh, a son of God.

I am a father, a husband, uh, a creative, you know, a, a, a writer.

And yes, some of those things involve what I do from day to day,

but those are simple identities.

you know, you don't go to, to, your point, networking events and say,

yeah, I'm a, a dad And, a husband.

Um, you, you talk about your accolades or your resume or whatnot.

And, um, I think God has been pruning me of my attachment to titles a

little bit and in a good way, uh, showing me that who I am is important.

Um, I.

My calling generally to serve others to love him can be applied in all kinds of

vocations and projects and businesses.

Um, and they they may change through the years, but what won't

change is my status in his eyes.

And so that's how I'd answer.

Very

good.

All right, so this is the, uh, I'm just gonna go ahead and go

big with like

my follow up question.

Yeah.

Do you, do you believe that at this time you are walking in steps

that God created you to walk in?

Or are you moving towards that, or are you transitioning?

I, mean, there's a lot of words we could use here.

What,

which, which resonates more with you when I, when I

mention that?

Yeah.

I believe

that God's will is more mysterious than we would like to imagine, and sometimes as.

No, no, no.

Will we want simple answers and that's all

we're gonna answer

here on seat.

Go create.

No,

I'm sorry.

I am an editor.

I, I like to complicate people's lives.

That's part of my mo

but God in his wisdom, not only knows where we need to be and what

we need to do, but he knows how much information we need or don't need.

And so I think sometimes we play the God card and we say,

yeah, this is what he has.

And I, and I was saying that in some seasons of my life, I'm

going to be a church planter and a pastor that is my calling.

And there's almost a, um, an accolade you receive when you know your

lane and you always walk in it.

And to some God calls them into something early on and they stick with it for

their whole life, and God bless that.

But for me, it's just been much more mysterious.

And so what I like to focus on are the things that are clear.

Um, what God has made plain.

And that is to be as present as I can be with what's actually in my hands, my, my

relationship with my kids, uh, again, as a husband, extending beyond that, my church

community, even my city, my neighbors.

Those are the things that I know that I'm called to.

And I have a ton of fun, vocationally.

I mean, I love what I do.

I love building things.

I love editing, um, you know, good writing and meeting interesting

people, but I've just learned that, uh, God knows, you know, where I need

to be in any given season of life.

And editing has been, in retrospect, just a surprising delight.

Like, oh wow.

I didn't see this coming, but now that I'm here, Lord, I can see your wisdom.

And now that I've walked through some of that pain of letting go of some previous

dreams or goals, I'm recognizing like, oh wow, this is far more suited for me

than all those things I thought I wanted.

And now that I'm here, I'm I'm learning to be increasingly grateful.

So.

I, I do love that response.

And what I'm doing is I'm circling around the question that I'm getting

to about your role in full-time ministry and sort of transitioning.

so the follow up I've got is, have you always had that, what I will call this

is me kind of summarizing what I just heard you say, kind of a peaceful,

relaxed approach to this journey.

I use the jour word journey a lot here at See, go create this journey you're on.

Or was there a time that you were a bit more.

Intense dogmatic.

Uh, I, I could throw a lot of words out here about your, I'm doing air

quotes for those, listening in those watching on YouTube, your calling.

Um, uh, and, and I wanna preface it with this too.

I, I, I've been around church world for a while, but I'm a business guy,

so I was

saved in business

and so church has

always been a little bit, I kind of poke fun at it, truthfully.

I'm sorry,

Oh, you're in good company.

often.

Um, but I also spent a couple years at a bible school and this whole thing

around calling, and I was called at the age of three to whatever,

Yeah.

Anyway, will always been that relaxed that I just heard you say, or

was there a time where you were like, man, this is where

I'm headed.

I would describe myself as a fool in the hands of a wise God.

So yeah, when I look at the big milestones life, the, the full weight

of decisions didn't really land on me.

that that could be just part of my temperament bit more laid back in

intuitive and how I move through the world, the versus planned, you know,

type A. But from choosing the college I attended, which required moving states to

marrying my wife to different, uh, cities we've lived in to jobs I've taken to, um.

I just, of course there's moments of stress, moments of wondering, okay, Lord,

how are you gonna come through here?

Or, which direction should we go?

But the overarching theme of my life has been really just a a

willingness to allow God's spirit to blow us in whatever direction.

And that doesn't mean we don't have goals and and thoughtful discernment, uh,

getting welcoming the opinions of men, mentors and thinking through things.

But ultimately what's happened in the pattern I've noticed is whenever

something just clicks in is effortless or in a door opens, not every time, but

most of the time, that's an indication.

And a, a lot of times every other door will just close and

then this one door will open.

And, um, whereas I was beating my head against the wall trying to make

something else happen, then something I didn't even see coming, you know.

Pops up and God blesses it.

I've learned to just trust that.

I have enough reps now, uh, of seeing God's faithfulness that

I, I've learned to recognize it.

And of course, he's not bound to any pattern.

He can act in our life however he wants.

But, uh, I think in his kindness, he gives us some nudges.

Like, remember when I did that And that, and that before

while I'm doing that again?

And so you can pry your hands off the, the controls and just trust and

fully lean into this opportunity.

And, uh, I would say that's how I've approached most decisions.

And a quick side story, I used to teach high school seniors theology, and they

would get so anxious about their college.

choice in the next season.

And I would just tell them the story of how I chose my college.

I was like, guys, I applied to a bunch of colleges, got accepted to some of 'em.

Didn't make a decision, didn't even really think much about it.

Then my parents sat me down one day and said, will, you've gotta make a choice.

So pick a college.

So I just picked one and I picked one in California because I, I

thought it'd be fun to live there.

That was as shallow as my decision making was, and yet God has done extensive

work in my life in the last 20 plus years here in the state of California.

The, the friends I've met, I met my wife here, on and on.

Uh, the ministries I've been a part of, he knew when I was clueless.

So I hope that would be an encouragement to people

I, I think it is.

And one thing I heard you, say earlier, I think I wrote down,

you know, allow God decisions.

But I mean, I just was thinking You you really.

Or allowing God to

be God

Hmm.

us saying we're not God.

You know, o one of the things I

recognize is I have a high degree need for control.

Yeah.

of people do.

They want to

control their

situation, their lives,

Yeah,

probably their spouse, their children, uh, blah, blah, blah, all that stuff.

And I think part of

the journey of people that are like that, and I think there are many people like

that in first

world cultures,

yeah.

is being bent, broken, whatever you wanna call it, to realize that we are

not God and that there is a bigger

picture beyond

Hmm.

beyond us.

so somewhere along the way you got into ministry and then you have stepped

away from full-time ministry and.

My observation is that a lot of people, once they get into the ministry,

they will often feel as if that is

the pinnacle of what they

Hmm.

be doing for God with God.

You know, kingdom of God, church world, whatever you wanna call

I'm always fascinated by when

people transition away from, and I, I

don't think

people are out of ministry,

Yeah,

but what, how a lot of people define full-time ministry Tell me more about

Maybe you could give a little bit of the background of your full-time

ministry experience and then maybe

stepping away

from it.

absolutely.

Yeah.

So I, I was a pastor in various contexts for, you know, 10, 12 years, somewhere

in there and did all kinds of things.

I was a youth pastor, was, uh, local outreach pastor, uh, an associate pastor.

I, I helped plant two different churches here in Orange County and loved it.

Went through seminary and.

You know, some people have a dry seminary experience where they

feel like God becomes a subject and their faith sort of atrophies.

I had the opposite, thanks to some really dynamic, raw, authentic type professors

who just sort of broke the mold of what a stiff academic personality should be.

uh, just very open about their own sin, struggles, their sto, their

past, and there was a real gratitude and and rawness to their faith.

That was really transformative for me.

And I I missed, those days, honestly.

Uh, I there was a season where I would just tear up any time, uh, worship began

in, in church, 'cause the words and and the person of Jesus had landed on me

and I was a lifelong Christian, right?

I'm like 23, 24, 25, and just having this incredible experience.

So I love ministry.

One of the ways that God has, has gifted me, I think, is

to teach and to communicate.

And I, and I always love opening the scriptures, being in a room of

people and getting to share, um, you know, uh, make things clear.

Um, just get people asking good questions.

And that's what I really miss about ministry.

That, and I think sitting with people, I don't get to do that as

much in the same way as pastoring.

But the transition happened.

So I, for four years was on staff at a church here in, uh, Santa Ana, California.

We planted in 20.

20, so right in the middle of, uh, the pandemic and everything.

and um, I, I was a church planning resident there And ended up becoming

essentially an associate pastor.

And as the residency was winding down, I came to this fork in the road and

I had two opportunities before me.

And this is what I was referring to with doors opening and closing.

Right?

One was a church in Portland that was potentially looking for a lead

pastor for one of their congregations.

The other was an editing rule where I'm at now at WaterBrook.

And I had been doing a lot of freelance writing.

You know, as a church planter, you're not making a lot of money.

So I would be doing a ton of writing, uh, work, writing copy

for different organizations.

And uh, I did a project with the chosen the TV series writing curriculum for them.

And it was sort of a spinoff from the show.

They were trying to write curriculum for Gen Z. And so I met another editor there.

Who had just started at WaterBrook and and said, Hey, will, we're

hiring, would you maybe wanna apply?

And so anyways, the church planting thing in Portland didn't work out.

Uh, they weren't quite ready to bring someone on.

The timing didn't align.

And I had a, a hard deadline of when my residency ended, so I needed to find work.

And the editing job worked out.

Uh, again, it felt quite effortless.

Uh, I was hired by, uh, someone I deeply respect, who's just a veteran

in the publishing industry who saw something in me and honestly took a risk.

Um, on paper.

I was not the most qualified person.

Um, but I kind of slid in, laterally into this industry that

normally you have to climb up.

and I just.

Recognize, I, I here's how I've described it.

Editing is the job that I was preparing for, for my whole

life, but I didn't know it.

And so as I've stepped into this, I've, I've realized, man, I am so suited for

this and, and what the job requires.

And that's not boastful saying I'm so good at it.

I'm just saying the type of personality, uh, the work environment, um, the

relational aspect, but then being able to just sit with for hours, like at

a computer, you know, do I enjoy that?

Uh, it's just been very very rewarding.

So that's a little bit of my story.

Is, uh, is it a

ministry

for you?

100%. Yep.

And you know, I, I may be a pastor again someday.

I don't know what God has, but I will never leave that role behind.

I want to be careful here because people have different experiences,

some of them painful, and so when you talk about leaving ministry,

there are all kinds of motivations.

Um, I personally love the church.

I'm committed to the church in many ways.

I miss, you know, being in the church.

Um, and so I think I always try to carry some of that with me.

And what I do is highly relational.

So as I talk with authors, I, I'm taking the most precious thing many of

them have ever created, which is this book, this manuscript, and am walking

beside them through the editorial process, which can be painful, As you're

cutting some ideas and adding others.

It, it, it's very, uh, delicate work.

In some cases.

I am praying for them, you know, we're exchanging voice memos.

Week in and Week out.

Uh, I'm encouraging them I'm sitting with them in their marketing meetings

and trying to champion them and, and be, and bring ideas to the table to

help their book reach more people.

yeah, I, I tr I think it's very pastoral what I do.

Um, like I just sent an author yesterday.

I had read through his manuscript for the first time, made all my

edits, and then I type up sort of a summary we call a editorial memo.

That's just my high level feedback.

And at the beginning of that, I just copied and pasted this liturgy called

a Liturgy for receiving Feedback.

And it just talks about how our identity is in Christ, how our ideas

and whether they're received or rejected does not define our worth.

And that's just one example of I'm always looking for little opportunities

where I can be more than just an editor.

But where I can be a, a friend in some cases, I can be, um, a pastor

in some cases, and not to blur the the professional lines there, but the

reality is, again, this is like precious heart, mind, soul work of these authors.

And I'm not coming in as a cold, detached, grammar Nazi.

You know, I'm coming in as someone who wants to enter into the creative

process with the authors I work with and who's really an advocate for them.

And, um, and what a privilege to get to do some of that supportive work.

Yeah, that's good.

Going back,

you mentioned you

were a youth pastor

Yeah.

at, at least I'm familiar with those roles.

At

least you made so much money in that you

never

have to think about money again.

Right.

It's,

Yeah.

that's a

high

paying gig, right?

Oh, you know, the, the, the payment is in pizza and fun events.

But not money.

42 cents an hour when you calculate it out or

something like

that.

So,

Absolutely.

I, and I I actually believe that what you're describing is pastoral

discipling,

Yeah.

because I, as a coach, I typically have worked with leaders and leadership

teams, and I don't think I'm.

You know, making more of myself than I should be, but I feel as if I

interact

with people.

more in a role of a discipler,

Hmm.

you know, to be able to disciple people.

And, and it's interesting you bring it

up.

I'm actually, I've just started a role where I'm functioning

as a

COO of a

company

Hmm.

was a client.

And when I talked to the CEO, my good friend, we've known

each other for 30, 30 years.

We actually, when we were crafting our roles, I

said, you know, it's gonna be more like you're an

evangelist.

And

I'm the pastor.

in that for-profit.

I mean, it's a

business.

Okay?

Don't get it, don't get me

Yeah.

Wow.

But I, I, I actually believe.

That the marketplace is

the place where most of this occurs.

And, and again,

I, I

think what

we will call the

Hmm.

traditional church think we need to embrace more the, I don't know, the the

ways that they can interact together them out like, like we've done.

That's me.

That's my little

rant on that.

But,

Yeah.

ha.

have you I mean, do you consider yourself a writer?

Have you written from a young age or how have you kind of come in to getting your

writing chops?

Yeah, great question.

Yes.

I've always had a love for writing, um, stretching back to kindergarten.

Actually, I, it, it, it's kind of funny to to analyze your, your, uh,

elementary year, you know, writing.

But there is a assignment in kindergarten where it was an acrostic poem And,

you know, first letter of, I think it was the word ocean or something.

uh, every kid, it was just random.

Each line was just its own thing.

Uh, apparently this is what my parents tell me.

My acrostic was all ocean themed.

So I, I wove it all together in my tiny five-year-old brain.

And, um, the truth is, Tim, uh, I I love writing.

I, I just know so many.

Fantastic writers that you're tempted to compare yourself, right?

But what I had was an environment that nurtured my love for telling stories,

for writing, and made me believe that maybe I before I actually was.

And As an now, you know, I, I published mainly articles, um,

across, you know, all kinds of different organizations, websites.

Uh, I have my own newsletter, but I'll look back on something I

wrote a year ago and I'll think, wow, I could do so much better.

And.

You know, your future version of yourself is always gonna look back

at the version today and be like, yeah, that, that wasn't that great.

And, uh, I, I, but I love that because it shows growth and looking back at,

it's like those tick marks on the door frame as you measure a kid who's growing

and then, you know, you don't see them growing day to day, but you can when

you look back how really have grown.

And I think as a writer, um, that's been my mentality, but, uh, for me to sit down

and write and to wrestle through an idea and to try to get it right and then to

ship it out into the world and to see its impact, great or small, to me is one of

the most rewarding things in the world.

And so for me right now.

I mostly do that through Substack in my newsletter, um, where I have a group of

folks that I am writing too, and they're mostly aspiring writers, but I just,

I love even writing about writing, so,

That's good.

You know, at, at times I think there's a fine line.

Maybe it's not that fine.

maybe it's just me between

confidence,

yeah.

arrogance maybe

being

delusional, you know?

Yeah.

you know?

you you up that you may have been given more confidence than you really should

have had I, I think I was raised that way.

I wasn't writing, I At a young age, but I was speaking and I, I loved

speaking

and telling stories, which has, I've sort of migrated that.

we're gonna talk about the relationship between being a writer, author,

and storyteller in just a moment.

'cause I wanna, I

wanna really unpack that.

I think, I think they're

related, they're

cousins or siblings,

Yeah.

So, how important is confidence?

And I wanna mention one thing related to being in kindergarten, which I'm

guessing is like five, six-ish years old.

Yeah.

We're staying, I showed you right before we hit record, I showed you we're in the

alleyway behind

my granddaughters.

Yeah.

there's one, she's five years old, we were having a conversation at dinner

yesterday And we were talking about some activities that she, might wanna do soon.

And we brought up, do you want to do you want to take piano.

lessons?

Do you wanna take violin?

And she, she just boldly in front of the table said, I

already know how to play piano.

And we all kind of looked at each other.

She's five now.

She, there's no one in the family that's owned a piano.

She's got a toy piano, but she boldly proclaimed, she might've

gotten this from me, by the way.

See, I think this is borderline delusional.

I think that's where you step into this.

she basically said, yeah, I could play piano.

We said, well, don't you want lessons or anything?

And she almost looked at

us like,

why would I need

Yeah, I got this.

I can already play.

How important is confidence when it comes to writing, and how do you have to manage

that as someone who might have the red pen

are critiquing someone's writing?

Yeah, what a tough question.

Um, the word that, that I like to use is audacity.

So I got that from Andrew Peterson.

He has a memoir called, it's either Adorning the Dark or God of the Garden.

One of those.

But, uh, he, he, I think it's adorning the Dark 'cause he's talking more

about creatives, those, whether they're songwriters, artists, writers,

and there is a certain level of audacity you have to have because to

be a writer, you're not just saying, I'm, I'm processing my thoughts.

this is cathartic, This is, for me.

No, as a writer you're saying this is for other people.

This is, uh, for the pub, for public consumption.

And there is a level of audacity there.

But I think along with Audacity is the humility not to take

yourself too seriously.

So you need the boldness to put your words out there, and then you need

the humility for some people to be like, I hate that, uh, that sucks.

I disagree.

And to not have it crush your identity or sense of self-worth.

Um, but confidence is a tricky word for me because what I've discovered, even

with writers who mentioning their names, people would think, oh, they've arrived.

They've written bestselling books being on the inside of publishing, what I see is

that imposter syndrome infects everyone.

No one's immune to it.

Everyone feels like they're the jokester in the room, that somehow they snuck in.

And at any moment, someone's gonna tap them on the shoulder and call

them out like you don't belong.

And I'm talking people who on paper are successful.

You know, um, I edit.

A lot of books by well-known authors, and a lot of times

I'll, I'll think, man, okay.

Writing, you know what I mean?

And that's very common in the publishing industry.

And so, but what they have is audacity.

They have that sense of, I, I, first of all, it's a burning within,

like, I, I gotta get this out.

You gotta have that fire and that urgency.

But then you have to have the audacity to say, and I'm actually going to act on it.

I'm gonna plant this flag in the ground, in the form of the written word.

I'm gonna practice in You know, I, I was processing with a good friend of mine,

he's published, uh, I think five books, but his first one is when he was like

25 and it made a little bit of a splash.

You know, he was interviewed by NPR and LA Times and a couple others.

And, um.

Then the book just got ripped apart by one or two leaders that he

deeply respected and it just stung.

So I was talking with him at least a decade later and I was like,

so looking back on that book, how do you feel about it now?

You know, do you stand by your words?

And he is like, I do.

But yeah, there's a lot of things I would say differently.

Um, but what's freeing, I think, for writers is, yeah, he would say

things differently now in some cases, but he doesn't regret the book.

He has learned the pain of being criticized by some of his

heroes, and he's still okay.

And his books have gotten better and better and better.

And because I have access to these databases, I can tell you that his

last book sold more than any of his other books and I would say is

the best book he's ever written.

So, yeah.

Audacity does not mean you think you're always right.

It means you're willing to take risks and put it on the line.

And, uh, to me, few things are as sad as when there's a capable writer who

is so afraid or, or their humility is, has grown into insecurity.

It's, it's been taken too far.

And, uh, I'm thinking of one friend in particular who often says, I

think it's irresponsible for me to put my words out there to that

many people because who am I?

I'm like, well, dude, yes, but let me tell you, there's thousands of

people much less qualified than you who are already doing that.

And so I, part of me wonders if what's underneath that is a fear of looking

stupid, is a fear of, um, and I, I'm not questioning his authenticity.

I I know he really does.

Feel responsible for the impact of his words.

But anyways, yeah, I think audacity and humility are the,

the paradox of a writer's mindset.

Yeah.

And, and you know, there's a word ego that popped into my

mind

that I believe you probably have to, uh, you, you have to.

Uh, I guess we could use that word, while, while also pastoring and nurturing

someone's soul while you're doing it.

And I you know, I recognized it.

I, I put 70,000 words in a novel, and I would, no one would ever

say that, Tim, you know, he is just a, the model of humility.

No, they would possibly use some other words to describe

me, but I'll tell you will.

I mean, we self-published, but I, I was like going, I wasn't sure I

wanted to push upload Amazon and all because was a bit different.

It was a novel.

It was, there was a little bit of self-reflection in it.

I had never put a lot of words out, even though I'd been writing most of my life.

uh, it was a little bit of a shaky start.

I I don't,

I

don't think I was excited about possible criticism.

Maybe that

was what it was.

Yeah.

Um.

Which is interesting, but, you know, I I think about personal

preference and I wonder how that integrates into what you do.

I man, I just thought about this book series and it was, most of

this audience would probably agree that the 50 Shades of Gray books

were trash as far as their content.

But even worse, to me it was

just

bad writing.

I, I, I had someone around me that said they read a portion of it and, you know,

I think it was El James or something, made a boatload of money, did well and

all that kinda stuff to, truthfully, it was almost porn if you ask me.

the writing was

horrible, you know, had it

Yeah.

good writing, I wanna say, okay, the content's not my thing and

all that, but it, it was horrible.

So does personal preference and just liking versus not

liking certain things enter into

your role?

Yeah.

Uh, are you asking sort of how I evaluate writing or,

Yeah.

Well, I mean, you mentioned in the, uh, earlier you said this just, this

is good writing, or this writing

may not be

good.

yeah.

how do you know maybe the best way of

asking how do you know if writing is good or not?

Then this might be me personally

asking.

Yeah, yeah, great question.

And I should qualify.

I'm a nonfiction editor, so I, I can really speak primarily

to, you know, that genre.

'cause fiction writers to me, I just am filled with envy, uh, how gifted they are.

Um, I mean, to, to tell a story and, and that being all that your book is, it a

story from start to finish gotta know what you're doing with pacing and dialogue

and the, the way you describe things.

Um, but yeah, in the nonfiction world, what makes good writing,

there's no way around the subjectivity of it to be fair, right?

So some people are gonna love one type of author and they're not

gonna like another, and the next person is gonna feel differently.

They might feel the reverse, but in general, um, I think writing that

resonates, uh, addresses a need.

Something that readers can readily identify.

It, it names an ache that they feel, and in the best cases, it names an

ache that they feel but haven't been able to articulate for themselves.

So good writing provides the gift of our articulating the, the groans of our

soul, whether it's the fear we feel, the hopes that we have, the dreams that

we have, the problems we're facing.

And a mistake I think a lot of writers make is their writing is too them focused.

Um, they're they're writing for themselves, not for the readers.

And so as an editorial team, we have different ways that we will coach writers,

like different comments that we'll make.

Here's a few of em.

We'll say something like, this is a great place to turn to the reader.

In other words.

Go and ask the reader a question or encourage them to think about something.

or if you've just taught some principle or truth show, give

them a, uh, buffet of ways that this could work out in their life.

Get their juices flowing, that kind of a thing.

So, turn to the reader, but my favorite one is look the reader

in the eye because it's concrete.

It's like you're sitting at coffee and there's someone across from you And

you know those moments in conversations where sometimes you're distracted,

you're stirring your coffee, maybe you're glancing over at the awkward first

date, sitting next to you, you know?

But then you have moments where you're just making direct eye contact.

You're, you're locked in and you're, you're connecting with the person

that you're communicating with.

And good writing taps into that, even though it's on the page, not in person.

it's quite possible to do that.

So that's one thing.

What else makes for good writing?

I would say, um, clarity and and pacing are huge.

And so a lot of what I help writers do is really boil down

what they're trying to say.

Uh, a good story at the wrong time makes it a bad story.

So a lot of times I'll be reading through a manuscript

and I'm like, this is hilarious.

I love this story, but it doesn't fit.

Or, wow, this is a heartbreaking narrative.

Um, I think actually you spent too much time here.

I think you went into some details that are gonna burden

readers rather than help them.

Um, and not saying writers should airbrush or minimize their pain, but

when we get writing, sometimes we get extra cathartic and uh, we start,

it's like a therapy session for us.

And again, the minute you decide that you wanna share your words with

others, that the writing is for them.

What that means is you have to put them first and you have to be a

ruthless eliminator and editor of your own life and sprinkle them in

as seasoning, But not the main course.

Uh, the exceptions of course, would be a memoir where

that's, that's the whole deal.

But those are extremely hard to sell, even harder to write Well,

and um, I think a lot of writers intuitively turn to to memoir when

they're trying to write something.

'cause it's like, oh, I'll just write my story.

Um, but actually what most nonfiction books should be, I think, is, uh,

books that are teaching you something, solving a problem, that kind of a thing.

They're, they're instructive in some way.

So, um, I could go on and on, but, but those are, those are a few things.

And I mentioned pacing, that, that taps into the storytelling aspect.

So knowing how long to tell a story is part of it.

So is transitioning from the end of that story into whatever point you're making.

And you could do that or inductively.

Deductively is when you give the truth first, and then, uh, you

explain it through the story.

Inductively is where you start with the story and the climax of the story.

Almost like one of Jesus's parables is this pithy takeaway,

like the take home point.

Um, so you, you can do it either way, but, and knowing how to do that well

and knowing, okay, what details will engage the reader and keep them clued

in, and then when too many details are going to cause them to tune out.

Like those instincts are very when it comes to writing nonfiction.

Yeah, and it's good.

like that you brought up that there is a difference between fiction and nonfiction.

One of the hardest things I had to do, write more what I

call fiction with a purpose.

I'm attempting to teach and get some

points

across.

So it's kinda Like fiction on a

mission or something like that is

Like Pilgrim's

But dialogue,

something like that, you know, dialogue.

I actually hired a coach

to help me with writing

fantastic.

It was like extremely

difficult to do, but

Yeah.

do you see a at all between people that are good uh, oral communicators?

and that they're also good written or is there a disconnect?

The, the reason I bring it up, I was in Bible school and there was

a lady that said, you know, Tim, you're a pretty good writer and

all that, would you read my book?

And this was a person that was sort of awkward communicating in general.

And truthfully, the book was a little awkward also.

So,

and maybe that

was just an isolated

Hmm.

correlations with people that are, if they're good communicators, it

translates to multiple Written speaking or, or am I trying to make something

of nothing?

I.

Yeah, great question.

I think it would depend on, um, a few things.

So it depends on what you mean by good oral communicator, because there's

there's different skills involved, right?

So I'm editing a book right now where I actually think he's a incredible

oral communicator, but one of his skills is distilling big ideas in

small, catchy, memorable phrases.

Um, and when he submitted his manuscript, I was like, wow, I'm

seeing that on the page like you have.

You know, I, I told him because I was just debriefing with him.

I was like, these phrases are like souvenirs.

They're things that, because they're so pithy and so catchy, readers can

take them with them and remember them.

You know, they may not remember everything you said in the book, but

some of these are gonna stick with them.

That's a communication gift that this guy has.

Um, but there's often a huge disconnect between people who are great on stage, in

person communicators, and then they go to write a book and it's all over the place.

Because they're intuitive thinkers.

They're not super linear.

They, they, they don't think as much in terms of structure and order.

They're just really good at capturing a room.

And you could honestly give them any topic and just be like, go

riff on that and make it engaging.

And they could do it.

Um.

Then you have communicators who are sort of the unicorns who can do both.

It's like they have, um, they have this magnetic quality about them.

They have an ability to read a room and to win people over effortlessly

in short, you know, in minutes.

And they know how to structure.

they know how to build a talk to sort of a climactic point.

Um, they know how to, as we were saying, really look people

in the eye and engage them.

So it's not just about here's the truth and the information, but there's a

real presence about them and, and they can see their audience really well.

Um, yeah, those folks, they can pull it off, but often we have to sort

of, teach some new skills to public speakers as they come to a book.

the question is, do you, write.

The way you talk, and should You yes and no.

Um, certainly you want it to be accessible.

You want it to be relatable.

You don't wanna sound stiff and awkward on the page, but it's

not exactly the same thing.

Um, words flow in a page differently.

I think the way that you handle a 30 minute talk into an auditorium

is different than the way you write a chapter in a book.

And, um, you know, with a book, uh, I've, I've heard this comparison from

a mentor of mine who's a great, uh, speaker, communicator, and a thoughtful

writer, but he just said the difference between a book and a talk is that in

a talk, people are stuck there for 30 minutes and you've got 'em with a book.

The goal is just get 'em to turn one more page, one more page, one more page, and

it's, it's a game that you have to play.

It's a skill you have to cultivate.

And so.

I would say maybe just to synthesize, it's like in a book, the demand

or the the urgency to really hook readers and keep them with you

because they have many other options.

They can close the book, they can check their phone, they can turn on Netflix.

Um, they have to choose to read you.

you've gotta learn the art of, of keeping 'em with you and, uh, them in

really authentic ways and reminding them, Hey, this is for you and, um,

you're gonna get something out of this.

So, um, yeah, those are a few thoughts.

That was really good.

And I actually, as you were you mentioned that rare unicorn that can

speak and

Yeah.

had this epiphany of where my granddaughter got the idea that

she could play the piano when she's

never really sat before.

cause, cause I had this flash go through my mind going, oh Tim, you're the unicorn.

You could do both.

That was my thought,

Yeah.

then I thought, well, that's pretty delusional.

That's, I'm trying to be

self-aware at the same time.

I'm being delusional.

I'm like going,

no, you're not.

That's not

the case.

But,

Yeah.

uh, anyway, that is, that is, that's really good.

And I'm, I'm glad I asked that question.

I wanna follow it up with something that kind of nags at me at times.

And I don't know where I fit into it.

I think I'm

stepping

into it a little bit more.

Hmm.

what, how do you define the difference between someone who's a writer, just

love putting words on paper, digital or whatever, an author, someone who just

loves cranking out books, and then maybe a storyteller that might have some of both.

And I might even be missing some terms, but I see those used interchangeably in

this

industry and at times I wonder where

I. Fit.

So what, and say whatever you want to about those.

'cause I'm guessing you see some of all of those

Yeah, that's a fascinating distinction.

And so as, uh, my friend Andy Crouch says, you know, I have ideas, but

maybe not many thoughts, you know, well-formed, um, to me an author, there's

an undertone there of, it's a career.

Um, and it's something you do vocationally.

Um, it doesn't have to be your sole income, but you know, maybe every

couple years you're, you're putting out a book or something like that.

Um, writer is a term.

I think you even said, Tim, maybe before we hit record, like I've written and

I have all these ideas, but I don't know that I'd call myself a writer.

And I would actually push back on that a little bit because what is

the standard of being a writer?

Do you have to be a Flannery O'Connor?

Do you have to be a CS Lewis?

You know, um, of course not.

Um.

When we think of writing and being a writer, I encourage people

to give themselves permission.

You'll never be a writer by saying You're not a writer.

Um, like my 5-year-old self in kindergarten writing an acrostic

poem, you gotta believe it.

Um, even before it's maybe true or, or maybe a better way of saying it

is, becomes more true the more you do it and the more you, um, dignify

what you're doing by allowing yourself to say, I am a writer.

Uh, writers like any other art form.

Um, we're all in different stages.

And if I compared myself to some of my good writer buddies, I

would feel inadequate every time.

But I do call myself a writer, um, And I encourage people to,

to think of it in those terms.

And so, and then storyteller, that's an interesting one.

Storytelling is so integral to all types of writing fiction, nonfiction, you

know, if we're gonna distinguish between writers and authors, I think to be a

writer, you have to be a storyteller.

There's, there's no way around it.

Um, that is the sort of, uh, that's the language that we speak in.

That's the quickest way to the heart.

That's the best way to capture attention.

Um, it is, you know, the, the way to teach a truth in a way that is

enjoyable and engaging and delightful.

And so, yeah.

Are there storytellers that aren't writers?

Sure, of course.

People choose different mediums, right?

Uh, you have some who they love podcasting, telling stories that

way, or, um, telling stories through film or songwriting.

I think just the good old fashioned circling up and telling stories.

I actually, my friend group in college did this.

we we had storytelling nights uh, sometimes there'd be a theme and we would

just gather and we we tried to bring our best work and tell stories to one another.

Uh, I I love that.

But yeah, I think as a storytelling is part of the bread and

butter of what we're doing.

Uh, the reason it sort of resonates with me,

is I find myself

working on a

lot of stories.

Yeah.

I, do have not.

Nonfiction, things that I'm working on, some things I wanna get across,

but what I will often find is I'm looking for a fictional way to bring

the

point across of what I'm also working on

in the nonfiction space,

Yeah.

leads me to believe, it's like, maybe I'm just wired.

Maybe that's what God called me to do, to go back to our earlier conversation.

Yeah.

But, uh, and I, and I do enjoy that, which then this actually brings

up my, it's not a trick question, but

boy, it's

one that's front and center.

Mm.

Is AI cheating?

is AI messing up the world that we're in, or is it enhancing it

and flushing out a lot of things?

I could argue both ways, and I could tell you that I'm knee deep or maybe

neck deep into AI with doing a lot of things with my work and all that.

And I'm doing some with my writing, so be be gentle

if you're gonna tell me I'm cheating on that.

But is it, is it

cheating?

It's funny.

I was on a a podcast earlier this morning and the same question was asked, I am

what I would call AI agnostic or AI cautious, and I've heard arguments.

Even this week I was listening to a couple debates.

Um, between people, uh, I think it was the the New York Times was predicting

some almost catastrophes that AI is going to unleash on the world.

and these are not conspiracy theory folks.

These are, you know, reasonable, very intelligent people

talking about these things.

But I think, so first of all, those that are AI cautious, there's no

avoiding AI in, in the world at large.

Um, it's so competitive.

Companies basically have the choice between incorporating

AI are being left behind and maybe even going outta business.

I don't know.

Uh, so I just heard Logoff software.

They have a new AI search feature, you know, so we're talking

even ministry aimed companies.

Everyone's doing it.

Um, I don't think the, in our world, you can, you'll be able to avoid it

if you use an app or if you search something, um, it's just gonna be coded

in and you may not even realize it.

So, uh, we don't have necessarily total autonomy and choice in every area, but

when it comes to our creative work and our writing, we absolutely do have a choice.

So for me, um, I'm still processing this.

I can speak from the publishing side.

Our authors are not allowed to write their content using ai.

Um, our contract specifies that they can use AI to ideate, to come up with ideas.

But if any sentences are created with an LLM, they have to be

rewritten in an author's own words.

That's our hard and fast stance.

We want the author's thoughts.

If you think of all of human history up until, what, three years ago?

AI did not exist.

And look at the beautiful things that humans have created, the

words that they have written.

Um, we, we don't wanna disrupt that.

Um, the hard thing is for most of us, AI can write faster and better than

what we could produce on our own.

some say Sweet.

Let's do it.

That sounds great.

the problem with that is, and with any piece of technology, uh, when you start

to give yourself those shortcuts, your critical thinking starts to atrophy.

Um, it's in the pain and the toil and the, and the frustration and the dead ends

of the creative process where you gotta go for a walk or you have to sleep on an

idea, or you have to let things marinate.

That's what's at stake.

Um, those beautiful sentences and ideas that are the overflow of that pain.

And that inconvenience.

And so AI is like microwaving ideas.

you you can pop 'em out quickly and they're warm and they're,

they're ready to eat and serve up.

But, uh, there, there will be some of us, and this is where I'd put

myself, that I, I try to, I'm trying to protect my capacity for creativity.

Understanding that the more I take the shortcut, the more when

I hit a roadblock, I'm gonna turn to it again and again and again.

And I'm gonna slowly erode my capacity for deep thinking and for creative patience

for creative tenacity and resilience.

And, um, I, I never want to be that person.

So, uh, I do use in a, in a few ways, um, even in my job.

I'm still evaluating whether I want to and, um.

Yeah.

When it comes to writing, I don't use it at all.

Um, I, I stay away from it, so that's my personal stance.

I, I, I've used it.

It's a great brainstorming partner for some things that I

am working on.

I did an

experiment when

the gr

Hmm.

you know,

X came out.

Yeah.

I I had some ideas and I jumped on it.

This kind of my way of testing it.

I had some ideas about some stories that were leading up.

There were fictional stories, but they were based in scripture, fictional

stories that were leading up to the fall of the, the fall of Jerusalem in 80 70.

And when I started, I went down a rabbit hole and two and a

half hours later, I, I had a

mini novel

Wow.

I, I, I'll be blunt, it was a pretty good story and it and I, and it kind

of messed with me will, because I talked to my wife later and some

others, I said, I'm trying to.

Determine if this was my story, I feel very confident it

was because I was arguing.

I'm going, no, that's not

what happened.

This is the scripture.

on the, you know, I went through all this stuff, but yet I

didn't write any of

the words.

Yeah.

it for a writing assistant with a lot of things I do in business.

I've just cranked out job for an entire organization in no time with some input.

So I, I think it's gonna be one of the big challenges that we

have to deal with in the near

future now, you deal primarily with

Christians,

Yeah.

that

adds another

Yes.

I, we we had this discussion with the Christian Podcasters Group and

we were talking about taking podcast and using AI to transcribe and

create some things from the podcast.

And would've thought, I I said

Jesus didn't go to the cross and die for our

sins.

Yeah.

it was like, that's the devil and all that.

Any any comments on it

from not just a writing, but from a faith

standpoint?

I.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, I I think what I was saying earlier about our creative capacity,

um, that's something to think deeply about, you know, um, because the words

that we use, um, responsible for And we're, we're held accountable for.

So there, there's that side of it.

And just wanting to steward our, our words well in a way that glorifies

God and does good for others.

I think we need to be patient with one another.

Um.

Because this is coming so fast and, um, you know, faster arguably than maybe

any other technology in our lifetime.

And I, I don't know, I, I, describe myself as agnostic because I'm

not even sure I can comprehend the full implications of this question.

Um, I have one colleague who said, AI is not a moral issue anymore

than the internet is an issue.

It's, it's how you use the tool.

It's not the morality of the tool itself.

And I'm like, okay, I can see that.

At the same time, the problem is hasty adoption and mindless

acceptance of something.

Um, and because it's coming so fast, you know, we don't even

have a choice in the matter.

So I just encourage people to be patient, uh, as I've listened to AI debates.

I'll be honest, they just mess me up.

They give me crazy cognitive dissonance and I'm just like, I don't

even know what to think about this.

and so I start with what I do know and what I feel called to.

And for me that is anything that I'm sending out as my writing, I want to know

that I wrote it, um, that I struggled, and I'm actually willing to put out

something that's mediocre compared to what AI could do if it's mine.

Um, because I want to see my growth, as I was saying earlier.

I wanna be able to look back and see that, um, I want to push my

mind and explore the, the, the full capacity that God has given me.

Um, so yeah, as we have these conversations, I would just say walk

slowly, form conclusions, slowly, listen deeply and with charity and also.

First and foremost, listen to God's spirit whispering to you and pay attention

to the convictions of your heart.

Um, I, I'm imagining because of how AI's taken over the world to be dogmatic

about this one way or the other, is at a certain point just going to be divisive.

And, you know, it's kind of social media.

I have strong opinions about it, but ultimately I I can have good conversations

with others about it, but I have to let them before God and others make the

decision that they feel right about.

Um, so I hope that's not too diplomatic of an answer, but I, I truly feel

like I'm just immersed in this debate right now and trying to find my way.

I don't think we're gonna be able to get away from it either.

Will, you know, one of the things I've asked myself,

I've really reflected on some.

I've worked on because my my novel, I wrote 70,000 words,

these two fingers typed out

every bit of it,

Mm-hmm.

it was excruciating and it was joyful and

it was

challenging and all of those

Yeah.

Um, but then to sit down and in two and a half hours, and I and I do

wonder if it might be the difference between someone who considers

themselves a storyteller versus someone who puts a lot of words on paper.

And that's something that I'm kind of

wrestling with.

Um, will, we're running up against our

time, but

there's two more questions

Mm-hmm.

got, and the first one is, I know we've got some people probably because of the

title and the topic are interested in.

Putting a

book out.

I,

Yeah.

I, fascinating.

I heard years ago that like 87% of all people think they've got a book

in them, which fascinates me because I think this, there's only like 49% of

the people that actually read books.

So that means there's a disconnect between

people that

read and people, anyway, that's,

Yeah,

nother

point.

But, um, what I think people get confused or they don't understand, and this might

be a short answer for a long topic.

How does the money work with, when we move into a publishing type situation,

self-publishing, you just work on it, get it good,

pop it up on

Amazon or whatever,

Yeah.

but how does the money work within a publishing world?

And then I'm gonna ask.

you to

people how they can connect with you.

And then I've got one more exclamation point

question I want

to ask.

Yeah.

That's great.

Yeah.

For someone who doesn't know how publishing works, um, you really

make money writing in two ways.

Uh, the first is your advance, so that's an amount of money.

that a publisher agrees to pay you for your book, and you get that money.

No matter what.

It's usually paid out in several installments at different stages of

the writing and publishing process.

Um, and then secondly, if your book sells, and that's a big if, 'cause most

books do not earn out their advance, um, then you get royalties as well.

So essentially you make the publisher that money back that they paid you.

Um, if you sell additional copies, then you get a certain percentage

of of sales and the percentage increases, the more that you sell.

So what's great about publishing for writers?

I. Well first the challenge is it's hard to land a book deal,

uh, because as you said, Tim, you know, so many people want to write.

So it's highly competitive.

But if you do land a book deal, unlike how the the record industry used

to work, maybe it still does, but where a band would sign a deal and

then they would be responsible for, if they didn't make back the money,

they were on the hook to pay it back.

That is not how publishing works at all.

The author gets the money, the publisher takes the hit no matter what.

another aspect of how the money works internally is, I, I may have the

percentages a little off, but it's something like 20% of our books pay

for, you know, 80% of our budget.

So most books don't work financially speaking.

Um, and so when writers get angry with publishers, like, ah, you know,

they're, they're just about the money I. We actually lose money on

80% of the authors we take risks on.

And uh, it's the few that float the many.

So, kind of fascinating inside peak there.

Yeah, that's good.

Um, why don't, why don't you go and tell people?

Like, let's just say someone's listening in.

They go, you know what I, I need to connect with will I, I actually think

your newsletter might be the best spot to

Mm-hmm.

but, um, go ahead and let, this is like promo time.

Tell

everybody where to find you.

I've got one

more comment and a

question then we'll be done.

good.

uh, where do

they go?

Yeah, it's very simple.

It's just writer circle.co.

So writer circle.co.

and that's where you can sign up for my newsletter.

Um, and my goal with the newsletter is because I, as an editor, I meet so many

writers who are looking for their next step, or they want to know how publishing

works and they want to grow as a writer.

And so every Saturday I send out a tip on writing or publishing.

That can be read in five minutes And I'm just taking all my learnings

from my job, the, the best, you know, practices that I see.

And I just try to pour those into my newsletter in a really bite-sized way.

And then, uh, I also have a podcast also called The Writer Circle, where I

interview well-known Christian authors.

I interview other editors like myself, literary agents, like basically

giving you a behind the scenes look at what it it takes to write well

and get published and all of that.

So both of those resources are@writercircle.co.

That's great.

We'll include the links down below on YouTube and also on the

podcast so people can connect.

Will I know you specifically work with Christians?

We didn't really,

we talked a good

bit about it, faith, but

Yeah.

like, you know, just 20, 20, 30 seconds.

quick tip final thing here, quick tip that you've got.

For someone who's listening in, they go, you know what I, I'm a person of faith.

I think I'd like to put a book together, or, I think I've got

one or something like that.

Just whatever the Holy Spirit puts on your heart.

What's

a quick tip you wanna leave us with

before I wrap

this up?

Yeah, thanks Tim.

I would probably say this

before you can run a marathon, you should run a 5K and a book is a huge undertaking.

Not to say that those of you listen aren't up for that challenge, but my question

would be, have you written an article?

Um, have you started a substack Or a blog?

Or a newsletter?

Have you practiced the short form of what you want to do?

Long form?

Um, a lot of people hit this dead end as they're trying to write a book and maybe

they even get 20, 30,000 words down, which is incredible, but then they fizzle out.

And so if you've got a topic that is burning, you know, inside of

your heart and mind, I would say.

Write a couple short pieces and email that to a close circle of

family and friends and start a conversation and and get some feedback.

And that's going to build a number of muscles, not just your writing muscle

and help you improve in your craft, but it's going to help you get used to that

risky feeling of putting your words out there, um, to to have your bubble

burst a couple times when people push back or don't read what you've written.

And what happens sometimes is we romanticize the idea of writing a

book or the, book, this ultimate goal that we're so, uh, transfixed by.

Um, and most people never get there when they try to run the marathon,

you know, going from zero to 100.

So yeah, it's, it's about getting some.

Littler wins under your belt and not despising those little wins, but, but

seeing them as you're training and as a joy, um, a lot of people want a book,

but they don't actually like writing and they haven't quite realized that yet.

writing short form stuff, I'm talking a thousand words or less, um, that's

going to help you discover, um, if you actually love it enough to keep doing it.

And so a book cannot create a love for writing, but a love

for writing can create a book.

Mm-hmm.

That is so good.

Will Parker Anderson, man, I enjoyed this conversation.

I knew that I would.

I, uh, um, make sure you go check out writer circle.io.

I've got it pulled up here, on my computer.

And one of the funny thing before I before I close this out here, I

actually will take someone's bio and use AI to get some questions.

I rarely get to them, but there was one that, there was one that I

was looking at here that I wanted to, I'm just gonna mention it.

We're not gonna answer it and we're gonna close out.

This was a question that AI generated.

If Jesus were launching a writing ministry today, what do you

imagine his submission letter to a major publisher might look like?

Wow.

I'm glad we're signing off so I don't have to answer that one.

my goodness.

We are done with that.

So Will Parker Anderson, thank you for joining us.

This was, this has been a great conversation.

It has been helpful for me.

I know listeners been helpful for you.

Just learning more about insights about the writing industry and what's

going on It's been a real blessing.

I appreciate you Will for sharing with us.

We are seek go create.

We've got new episodes here every Monday.

We're on YouTube, growing fast over there, podcast channels, all of those things.

Keep doing all that you're doing because we are getting the word out with these

long conversations with great people

like Will.

So

thanks for listening in.

We will

see everyone

next week.