0:00:05.3 Welcome to the Inclusive Education Project. I'm Vicki Brett.

0:00:08.9 I'm Amanda Solohi. We're two civil rights lawyers on a mission to change the conversation about education, civil rights, and modern activism.

0:00:19.3 Each week we're gonna explore new topics which are going to educate and empower others.

0:00:26.8 And give them a platform to enact change in education and level the playing field.

0:00:33.4 Welcome back, friends.

0:00:34.7 Hello, listeners.

0:00:36.5 We are back rolling into a new school year and excited to jump into some very important topics. As always, we have a great guest on today. So, Jennifer, thank you for being on the podcast.

0:00:48.9 Thank you so much for having me.

0:00:50.6 So we'd love to get a little bit of an introduction about you, your background, how you got into this work, and we'll get right into our conversation.

0:00:58.5 Sure. Well, I'm currently working at Flagler College, which is in St. Augustine, Florida. It's in the northeast part of Florida, and we have a deaf education program. I am the director of the undergraduate and graduate programs in deaf education. And our undergraduate program is face to face and our graduate program is online. I have a background in deaf education, elementary education, and special education. I taught for 14 years before I decided to go back to school to become a teacher of teachers. And I just really love this work, working with future teachers and current teachers that are in providing professional development to help them better serve deaf and hard of hearing students.

0:01:42.3 Which is so necessary. We talk all the time about ways that we can better teach our teachers and prepare them to create more inclusive and more supportive learning environment. So your work is just. It's just so important.

0:01:59.6 Thank you.

0:02:01.3 How did you even come into this? And I love the name of your course, Deaf Ecosystem, which I know we'll get into. But how were you introduced? Because of a family member. Oftentimes for special education, attorneys stumble into the area because they have a child with a disability. And Amanda and I have been in this world for the past 15 years, and we actually were introduced to it in. I was introduced to it in law school. Amanda went to law school knowing that she wanted to advocate for children with special needs. So I always like to ask because people think, we may have a child with a disability, but it's like, no, we've been doing this for a long time. What about you, Jennifer?

0:02:43.1 Yeah, so I grew up in New York, just north of New York City, and I was about 5, 10 minutes from the New York school for the deafly known as Fanwood. It's in White Plains, New New York. And my high school and their high school did a lot of programs together also, their students would come to our classes with an interpreter to take some of the classes that maybe they didn't offer at their high school. I always knew I wanted to be a teacher as one of those kids that would, you know, set up my stuffed animals and sticks and teach. Teach them lessons. But then by the time I turned 16, I realized that I loved American Sign Language and I wanted to learn it. And I was just really interested in the deaf culture and the deaf community. And so I decided to put those two things together. And I got, training in teaching deaf children when I went on to college in my master's.

0:03:36.6 That's really interesting in terms of seeing how it was done, I would assume, well right, the high school having the kiddos come. And, you know, we talk a lot about inclusion, but what we have seen, especially with the deaf and hard of hearing community, is these high schools or classes really shrink. Because I feel like it's a pendulum, right? It was like in the 70s, it's like, we're going to segregate all these kids, right? And then, you know, as we progressed, it was like, oh, no, deaf kids should be in with their typical peers that can hear. And then, we saw kind of a lowering of the population in these high schools that, really create a culture that is so important. And the child actually misses all of that when they're integrated into classrooms, maybe with an interpreter, but that's the only person that they were able to effectively communicate with. Have you seen that kind of shift in recent years going back, the pendulum swinging again and really trying to bring awareness as to how important it is culturally for children that are deaf and hard of hearing to be around others or see adults who are like them?

0:04:53.9 Absolutely. I mean, you've just said it better than I probably ever could. And actually, that's a common topic of discussion in our field. What does least restrictive environment mean for deaf and hard of hearing students, right? Because it's not just about being in your neighborhood school with your same age peers. It's also a social aspect, communication mode, and really that pendulum has swung back and forth many times. But I think where we've landed, and I'm hoping and what I try to teach my future teachers of the Deaf, is that it has to be an individual decision for each student. And that might change. It might be one way in early elementary, a different way in upper elementary,

0:05:39.6 Then maybe in middle school they need a different setting. So just really following the path of the child, of the student, and knowing what's best for them. And both settings have positives and negatives depending on the student. And yes, a lot of the schools for the Deaf, they do often, the numbers tend to dwindle as the students get older because they may not always have the resources to teach all those upper level courses and things like that. So really the perfect situation for a student who wants to be in the school for the Deaf with like-minded and similar communication mode peers is to be able to go back and forth between the schools, right? To spend part of their time at the school for the Deaf and part of their time in inclusion. And of course that also gives them the skills to advocate for themselves and to navigate a hearing world. But really, I'm preaching to the choir here, right? We have to figure out what's best for the student at that time. And thank goodness the IEP meeting happens every year because they can come back every year.

0:06:55.5 But I think that's an important thing for everyone to remember that when we talk about least restrictive environment, it's not like, and teams often fall into this trap of, well, let's go through the continuum and I'm going to list out everything from least to most restrictive. And they have this perception that it is this line that is the same for everybody just because their administrators has decided that that's what they offer without thinking about the fact that it's not really a line in the sense that it's not going to be the same for every kid at every moment. And for the same kid at different moments in their time, just like you talked about, we need to be looking, we have conversations sometimes about whether an aide in a general education class is less restrictive or more restrictive. And we get into those arguments with schools all the time, but that it may not be the same for every child who is deaf at different times. It might not be the same for that child, but also like, I think it's important for parents to think about this too, is I get some families where they'll have their child in one setting.

0:08:03.0 And that's like what they've been told, this is appropriate. Whether it's being in fully general education or not. And they think it's gotta be this way. I gotta fight for this all the time. But then I have families that ask like, well, how long can we keep this up? How long can we push for this? Will the district fight us on it? And it's like, well, I don't know. I can't really, I don't have a crystal ball. I can't look into the future to see what your four-year-old is gonna be like when they're 12 or 10 or 8 or 15, 18, right? It's something that is gonna grow based on how they do and what their circumstances are. And definitely needs to be a conversation year after year.

0:08:43.8 Absolutely. And often we talk about LRE, which we know is least restrictive environment, but really standing for language-rich environment. And for deaf and hard of hearing students, that is the most essential, especially in the beginning. 95% of deaf and hard of hearing children are born to hearing parents. So there is not a matched language, not a shared language necessarily. The spoken language, whatever spoken language it is, is not fully or at all accessible depending on the range of hearing for the deaf child. And the parents, even if they wanna learn ASL, they're just learning it. And so they are not language models. So that's why it's really about the language exposure for these students. And sometimes that's not just in preschool, kindergarten, and elementary school. Sometimes that also follows them through middle school and high school. And that's why deaf role models, deaf mentors, deaf teachers, deaf administrators, deaf staff are so important. And that is what you get at a school for the deaf. And so in my mind, that isn't restrictive, right? Opens up opportunities for students. And if you are the only deaf child in a hearing public school, you don't see anybody that looks like you.

0:10:11.7 It's hard to know what your potential is as an adult. And so if they're in a school for the deaf, they have more opportunity to see what their future can look like for themselves.

0:10:24.2 And I think for the family as well. I was gonna bring up the fact that, yeah, most children don't have parents that have ASL and have the capability to teach them that. And so then as they're learning, and I think it's helpful for parents to even have that village. That you will naturally get when you are at a deaf or hard of hearing school. You can connect and have almost an instant village of people that are in similar circumstances. And that's beyond the student. That can very much impact the family, which I think is super important because although there are communities that people gather online, it's something different to be able to have that in real life, someone that you're able to connect with on that level.

0:11:14.4 Absolutely.

0:11:15.3 And I think that that's why, and I wanted to kind of talk about your course a little bit more. I know I've already kind of said it out loud, but yeah, we're super interested in why you thought it was important for teachers to know a little bit. And if you could describe your course for our listeners, that would be helpful too.

0:11:32.4 Absolutely. So the Deaf Ecosystem course is actually not a part of the Deaf Education Teacher Preparation Program. At Flagler College, we have, it's called Flagship, and I always forget what it stands for, but it's for sophomore, high impact program, we'll say. I should look that up, but it's a really special program for our sophomore students. So it's a part of their first year courses and their core program, which is our general education courses. They have to take a course either in January or in May that it's kind of like a think outside the box. We're trying to get them to have different points, experience different points of view, have different experiences. Some of, many of the courses are study abroad, but we also have a lot of really rich courses that happen in St. Augustine. And so myself and my colleague, June Ann LaFors, who is the director of the ASL Studies Program at Flagler College, and she herself is Deaf, and like she is Deaf of Deaf of Deaf. So her parents, her grandparents, husband as well on both sides of the family, very culturally deaf.

0:12:50.1 Her first language was ASL. She grew up in a language-rich environment. So the two of us teach this course together, which is essential. I mean, she could probably teach it without me, but I could certainly not teach it without her. And so we teach this course together and our audience is actually students from all different majors across the campus... We only get Deaf Ed students. They learn something new too, but they've certainly come in with a higher level of background knowledge than the other students just because of their experiences and the practicums and things like that. And then we get some ASL studies. We have an ASL minor, so we get some of those students in. But the vast majority are students from business, psychology, 

0:13:33.7 Oh wonderful.

0:13:34.6 Sociology, psychology. So basically what we do, it's a community integrative experience course and we partner with local alumni, so Flagler alumni owners of businesses in St. Augustine. It's a two-week course. We teach ours in January because the students have access to the dorm rooms in January. They don't have to pay extra. And so basically we give them, the first week is just opening up their brains and pouring in as much information as possible. So they get like Deaf culture 101. They learn all about Deaf experience, Deaf education, Deaf rights, issues, Deaf gain, the full everything. We talk about Deaf President Now, which is probably more known because Niall DeMarco just, they just showed the Deaf President Now documentary on Apple TV that a lot of people will watch. So we teach them about all the things. And then now they have this knowledge. They partner with the business and we put them in teams of three or four. We spread out our Deaf Ed majors. We never allow them to be their own team.

0:14:49.3 Leaders in their teams, we separate them and they basically, they work with the business, they research the business and their goal is to come up with a proposal of three immediate action items that could benefit Deaf and hard of hearing individuals, perhaps as customers or employees. And then three future ideas. And those are usually like a little bit more dreams. Knock down this wall so there's more visual access. Well, we'll probably can't knock down the wall because it's wall bearing, but we still make these suggestions to them because there are some that potentially with more time and more money, they would be able to do. And it is just such an amazing partnership. The business owners are incredible. Of course they're invested because they're alumni and they really love giving back to their college. And of course it's great for their business because we're getting people in there and talking about giving them ideas on what they can do. And it's just, it's really an incredible program or course that we teach together. And the beauty of it is that June Ann comes with her experience as a deaf person, also an educator. And then I come in with my 30 plus years of being in deaf education in all different ways. And together we kind of give both of those perspectives and the students really leave with...

0:16:19.8 They're transformed. And that's the purpose of the flagship courses is transformative learning.

0:16:25.8 And I mean, just that shift in perspective, right? It just may seem small, but in a two-week time period, but it can definitely be done. And I love the different layers of the course and that practical matter because I think that that is oftentimes what resonates more, with not only the student, but then, the business and the alumni that they've, reached out to. And that's an experience they'll have forever, which is amazing.

0:16:54.6 Absolutely. And impacts their business. And the ecosystem, right? So the deaf ecosystem is basically a concept that was developed to support deaf individuals because typically, many are often language deprived. I already mentioned that 95% of children have hearing parents. So they may not be getting that language in that critical acquisition language period in those first five years, which we know has ripple effects throughout their lives. And believe me, I'm not saying that this is the case for all deaf people, right? I mean, there are many, many, many, many successful deaf people. The numbers of deaf people who do not go on to higher education compared to hearing people, it's drastically different. And so, and then, of course, getting jobs, keeping jobs, there's a lot that goes in there. And if we can educate business owners and make, them more open to hiring deaf and hard of hearing adults or individuals to come work for them, then... Really the impacts are widespread, right? It's not just in our college and with our students, but it's also impacting the community.

0:18:11.2 Absolutely. I mean, anytime we can encourage and promote better understanding and inclusive practices just across the board, it has a widespread effect. I mean, we see it in schools too, where we have communities within that school or school district where there's so much more inclusivity early on. We see such a drastic impact in how the children, the students treat each other as they grow up. And because they're having this community that is focused on, we're all human, we're all in this together, the sense of, we're building this community. And the same goes for, like you said, workplaces and businesses, and it can have a huge effect.

0:18:59.8 Absolutely.

0:19:01.2 Well, Jennifer, we appreciate your time and expertise in sharing it with us because this is like one of the primary reasons we love having a podcast is that we get to invite guests like yourself. And it really impacts the work that we do. And helps us, even if we, like you said, you're preaching to the choir, we can take something away from it. And yeah, I think that that discussion about the pendulum swinging and what people who are not deaf are trying to make decisions for the individual that is deaf or hard of hearing, best piece of advice, like you had said, is really it's individualized and it can change and it's okay if it changes. And I think that that's a key takeaway that we hope that listeners, truly understand. And it, applies to all people that have unique learning challenges and needs. Ask them their opinion. You know, you're gonna have an inclusion week at your school, cool. Who are you including on that committee? Because it sounds like you're not including everyone or we always see, autism days or whatnot and they didn't have any autistic children part of the ASB to like come up with the activity. So I think that that's just a great reminder for everyone is to ask the individual. We are grateful that individualized education plans are individualized but sometimes, people kind of like to clump and as humans, we like to categorize and we can't.

0:20:31.5 We got to remember not to do that so much. So thank you for reminding us of that. And if our listeners wanted to learn more about your program down in Florida, how can they reach out or learn more about the college and things like that or just kind of wanna reach out to you? How can they reach out to you?

0:20:49.8 Sure, I mean, you can definitely just Google Flagler College Deaf Education and both the undergraduate and graduate programs will pop up. But if anybody wants to reach out directly to me, they can contact me. My email is jcatelano, so J-C-A-T-A-L-A-N-O @flagler.edu and I'd love to chat with anybody.

0:21:15.0 Wonderful, we'll make sure that your email gets in the show notes so that they can see that as well.

0:21:20.2 Thank you.

0:21:21.1 We thank you so much for being on here and to our listeners, if you had any questions, feel free to reach out. If you have specific topics you'd like to speak to, have us talk to Jennifer about, we'd love to have her back on. So let us know and we will talk to you next week.