Bayan on Demand offers a growing library of courses taught by highly regarded scholars and practitioners, designed for meted board members, school administrators, imams, chaplains, youth workers, parents, and more with classes on Islamic theology, adolescent development, non-profit management, and the history of Islam in America and more. Bayan on Demand provides accessible knowledge for just $10 a month. Join our growing community of learners today and support the work of Baan Islamic Graduate School and the Muhammad Ali Scholarship. Go to bayan online.org. That's B-A-Y-A-N online.org to get more information. As Salaamu Alaikum, may the peace that only God can give be upon you. I'm your host Imam Tariq El-Amin, and welcome to the American Muslim Podcast presented by Bayan on Demand. My guest today is Chaplain Syed Ali Nasaruddin raised in a scholarly family. He began his Islamic studies under his grandfather in Chicago and went on to study in Egypt, earning a certification in Arabic. He holds a Master of Divinity in Islamic Chaplaincy from Bayan Islamic graduate school and has served as spiritual life manager at Iman. Currently. He teaches Islamic studies and Arabic while pursuing further studies at the Majlis Seminary. He also facilitates spiritual care gatherings across Southern California As Salaamu Alaikum chaplain.

Wa Alaikum As Salaam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu.

I appreciate you taking the time to have the conversation with us. we always like to begin by letting our guests know that, we invite you to be as open, as vulnerable, as transparent. in sharing a bit about yourself and some of those, pivotal moments and memories that have impacted, you and helped to shape who you are. with that said, is there a first memory or is there a pivotal moment, something that you can look back on? And say, this is where it all started at for me.

Yeah. I think when it comes to the origin, there's different parts of my childhood that come to mind. at different stages of my life. I think I like process different parts of, my beginning to understand where I'm at and something that I've been thinking a lot about the past few weeks having just completed my M div. Is just like, why did I choose? It's also because I'm answering a lot of questions. people are asking, what did you do for three, four years? I was like, yeah, it's complicated. But, it really did start with, my grandfather as was mentioned, and my parents. Of course, my, my family is, Originally from Hyderabad India. and, both sides of the family. And, they, my, actually my parents' families knew each other. My, both of my grand or my grandfather and my great-grandfather. So my dad's father and my mother's grandfather actually were colleagues. and they were both. scholars in Hydrabad India, just doing work. and, the families knew each other, they saw, may maybe my son and your daughter and they sort of like met, outside of America while my dad was already in America. And then he brought my mom over. And, the intention that they had coming to America was not just economic for them. It was very much like continuing in this, tradition that both my parents came from, of taking, scholarly knowledge and putting it in action. And then I was blessed. To be able to, you know, my father's father passed away, when, actually my father was like 16. and, my mother's father, who was also a scholar, I was actually able to spend a lot of time with him in Chicago. Uh, he lived mostly on, Devon Avenue. Which actually a lot of people around the country might know, Rogers Park, neighborhood on the north side of Chicago. And, he basically just took that same tradition from Hyderabad and continued it on Devon, like he, he was in business. Than he had his whole like, livelihood that he managed. But for him, his whole like goal of life was how do we serve using this tradition that we've been gifted? And, so I really grew up seeing this as an intergenerational, burden that I had to take on. and I really started engaging with it very early. I was also pushed into the limelight pretty early about it. So at 5, 6, 7 years old, my grandpa would write speeches in Urdu for me and my brother, and we would. Recite them and he would tell us, like, he was like, this is what you're saying. This is what it means. And you have to, it's, it's, it's laylatul-qadr you gotta speak to the children. I'm like, I am the children. This is like, I'm five years old. I'm speaking to the 10 year olds in the, in the, in the youth section. This is this is crazy, but, it was a part of this like pedigree that was really given to me. And, we were doing that. We would rent out Bombay Hall on Devon. for the bigger events. and then we would also, it was just a lot of apartment hopping, we had a couple like, masjid communities that we would work with. a lot of storefront message. one of the, we had a masjid that was. In the basement of a restaurant. I don't know how, I don't know how the zoning situation was working, but, we got, nobody was hungry. Listen, everybody in the area was happy with the situation. we can eat, we can shop, we can go downstairs. We are good. You know, um,

right.

And, we had this like, community of people that were mostly immigrants, And mostly from the subcontinent. although we worked a lot with, Somali masjid's that were in the area as well. and, the north side is just. So congested. Everybody is just in a really tight space. And, I just saw my grandfather just serve in that capacity. Like, his apartment was not an apartment, it was a community center. Like, his living room was just all day from breakfast to dinner filled with people going in and out. Just like, just wanna spend time. Some people are lonely. Some people have questions, some people wanna study something. And as a kid I was just annoyed like, okay, can I like turn the TV back on yet? Like, is it, is everybody gone? But especially, and also I would go back to India, every so often. And I would see actually on. A bigger, more institutionalized scale where my family was like bringing all these ideas from, which actually made me respect a lot more what they were doing. 'cause they're still figuring things out here. having come here in the eighties and nineties and still understanding the landscape of America. But that origin, like story for me was like at 13. Once I turned 13, my grandfather came up to me and said, he said, all right. so you're mukallaf now, I was like, I'm a what? And he said, no, you're, he's like, you're a man now. I was like, all right. And he is like, I'm gonna have to teach you the religion. you, I'm gonna come over to your house. And we're gonna spend a weekend. I'm gonna teach you fiqh I'm gonna teach you aqeedah and I'm gonna teach you, tasawwuf, and I'm gonna teach you the history of Islam as it's been passed down to you today. And I was just like, all right.

Wow.

He was like, he told me, he said, bring a notebook and a pencil. And we just went through the whole, it was like, you know what a 13-year-old would need, He explained to me,

what's f all this stuff. If I could interject. Yeah. If I could interject really quickly, just for the benefit of our audience who may not be familiar with some of the terminology within Islam.

Absolutely.

Mukallaf, it means that you are responsible.

Absolutely.

You're at the age of responsibility, you're accountable. please do continue. if folks could pick that up through context clues. 'cause I think you laid out pretty nicely though.

Yeah. Yeah. Moral, he was like moral responsibility. He was like, the angels on your shoulders are writing stuff now. just be aware of that and let me make sure that I teach you, are you praying correctly? Are you washing yourself correctly? Are you engaging with people correctly? Is the way that you understand and view the world. And God's role in that, the prophet's role in that. Is that all correct And, get, let's get your mind, body, spirit aligned through knowledge. And then also what he was very big on was, let me contextualize all of this through a study of history and specifically he was like. there are controversies that happen that people like to stay away from, but if you're gonna serve, you need to be able to take the lessons from those controversies. if there were issues among the sahaba, I want to talk about it with you. You and explain to you how the scholars have understood how to be able to like put all of that in context and what that means for us as we try to do our own community work, generations later.

So you went from this five and or 6-year-old giving speeches to other youth.

That's right. Right.

That, that then at the age of 13, your grandfather says, look, you are responsible now. Now it is time for you to be properly equipped. Right. That's with information. Was there any point that you felt, maybe awed by the family, this legacy? Did you know, or were you excited about entering and continuing that?

Yeah, if I'm honest, I was like, it was, I was annoyed 'cause I was like. All the other kids, like, they're not doing weekend intensives. They are like at the park. why am I going through this?

right.

Especially when I was younger, but I think As I became like 12, 13, you also become very inquisitive, and you start to question things and wonder why. And my grandpa basically, before, Before the rebellion really started, he was like, let me tell you exactly what your life mission is gonna be and give you a sense of purpose and like tell you how to move and just get you moving and get you going. And that was like, I didn't necessarily even recognize what a gift that was, but I knew that like. Oh, now I feel motivated now and I have like something that I'm constantly thinking about and working towards. Whereas, looking back at it, I was like, how come a lot of my friends are just like drifting and just like, I don't even know what you're doing with your day. and I was just thinking oh, okay. So if that's what we were doing in Baghdad, 200 years after the prophet passed away. Okay. And then they, when they got to India, this is how they translated it. What does that look like in Chicago? that's what where my mind was at 13 14, 15. so initially I was like, I didn't like it. 'cause it's just a lot. it's a lot for somebody in this age and culture to be given so much, so early, but as I was going through it, I started to become very excited, very quick.

Yeah. What were some of the things in retrospect or maybe you noticed them then, some of the differences and maybe even some of the similarities that you might have seen when you. We're in India as opposed to in Rogers Park. and the way your family was situated there and as opposed to here.

That's right. I think, and actually when I was 13, one of the things that my grandfather also mentioned was he was like, you've been doing speeches in Urdu for all these years. And I want you to learn Urdu, I want you to have some engagement with Urdu. All these things. But he was like, the kids that you're talking to don't know what you're, they don't know what you're saying. 'cause a lot of them don't know Urdu. And the area that we were in, India's very diverse, like linguistically also. So a lot of them speak Gujarati. A lot of them speak different languages. So it's like. may, maybe you can try to like do this in English a little bit. And, basically it was like, how can you reach out to these children of immigrants who he was like, listen, I'm reaching out to the uncles and aunties who came here because that's who I know. I don't know these kids. And that's where you come in and you need to ask me tough questions in terms of what does this actually mean as you do the translation work? and, because I saw that like,

hold on. Yeah. Your grandfather told you to ask him the tough questions.

Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. he sat there. He was like, all right, so what are we doing? What are you thinking about? it's, 27th Rajab, and I'm giving a speech. I'm gonna talk about this, this, and this. if you were to just translate that into Urdu, and, or translate that into English from Urdu, what would that look like for the kids? And what makes sense to you? What doesn't? we were big on calendar events, isra wal miraj the commemoration of the day that the Prophet Mohammed was taken from Mecca to Jerusalem and then up to the heavens, many believe it was the 27th of Rajab. And so in India, it becomes a whole commemoration. Like, let's do, let's remember that. What does that mean for us? usually like. How can, that was the day that the gift of prayer was given. So how can we use this? Like as a check-in to be like, are we recognizing that this prayer is a gift and not a burden? Different things like that. You have the 15th of Shaban, which is another sort of mom. All these different like moments throughout the calendar year, we would have. Community events. And so it's like, my grandpa's gonna give a talk. I'm gonna give a talk. Other people are gonna give talks. And so in using that, he's like, okay, this is what I'm gonna speak about. Does that make sense to you? Does it not make sense to you? Why not let's. Let's have some sort of like dialogue, and he really wanted me to be able to speak to the youth. And what I noticed about the youth was like, they were just there because they were there. Whereas in India it was a lot more natural. There was a lot more cultural, continuity that allowed for like a level of communication to where even if the kids didn't care, they knew what was. Being talked about, whereas here I had a lot of friends who cared. But didn't know what they were talking about, even having like a connection to legacy, like in India, we would walk around and they'd be like, oh, this is, this is where this happened. This is where this person is buried. This is where that center has been serving people for hundreds of years and. They're just looking around the neighborhood and they're just like, look at all of these things that we're connected to. And then on Devon, it was just like, everyone just felt like, oh, this is just all foreign. We don't know anything here. And our parents tell us that, we have all of these legacies, but I don't know. It all sounds like theory to me. And especially my parents, lived between the suburbs and the city. And while our community was always in the city, they wanted, us to go to, high school or middle school out in the suburbs. And even over there it was. Even more of a disconnect where, I was like, translation work from my family to Devon is one thing, but I just started to recognize like even other desi's, other South Asians in different parts of the city are like, we're all going through very different experiences. That all requires translation work, and India. India to, to Chicago at least gave me one like case study of what that could look like,

Right. Right. your grandfather sounds like an amazing man.

Alhamdulillah. Alhamdulillah.

There's, something that I think is, pretty interesting and that you hear certain types of parenting models that are very much rooted in. Do what I say, don't question me. And in this dynamic that you're presenting between your grandfather and yourself He's saying, ask me the tough questions.

Oh yeah.

And he's also saying to you, you know, these kids, I know the aunts and uncles, you know these kids. I don't know them.

Mm-hmm.

So it sounds to me like there was a respect that was given to you. Oh yeah.

Oh yeah.

To your intellect and also recognizing that you had a certain capacity that you were capable of reaching those around you. How has that impacted the way you deal and you interact with young people today?

I'm actually a middle school teacher right now, and so I think about my grandfather a lot and the way that, especially at this pivotal age, sixth, seventh, and eighth grade, that, he was able to. Still this like confidence in me. that's huge. It's huge. and with anybody, there are so many adults walking around with the wounds that they still think about from actually these formative years of sixth, seventh, eighth high school. And, I just tried to like, and I actually didn't even realize that my grandfather was unique in this, not necessarily unique, but it's just so common, like you said, to just be like. I don't want you to think, I don't want you to engage. You just, you're just gonna follow what we tell you. Right. So now in my work, what I try to do is do the same. Just be like, listen, I don't know your life. I don't know your fa we might have even been na, we might be siblings and I still don't know your life. I don't know how you're engaging with everything that's coming at you. I'm engaging with it in one way. My little brother is very different person, and he's engaging with the same experiences that we're both receiving completely different. Yeah. And so it's like, how can I actually empower people with the tools so that you can figure it out, And it makes it easier for me 'cause then I could just, here's the tools, man. You know what to do.

Yeah. Did youth ever get in the way for you, or has it gotten in the way for you in certain instances because there was a model. That was established for you, which was, I am capable, I am respected, and I go out and engage. And for others it might seem, this is a fresh phase, young guy. he hasn't done anything without knowing that you've got years and years behind you.

Yeah. it still continues. subhan'Allah. Everything is from the wisdom of Allah. I also look younger than I am, so I'm 30 years old, but people think I'm like 23, 24, and they're just like, oh, and I'm like, oh, I just got my M Div. They're like, oh, so you just graduated undergrad? I was like, no. Know alhamdulillah,, it is been a minute since I graduated undergrad, And then Allah also gave me situations where like. It's like, yeah, I took a three year break in the middle of my undergrad. So what year did you graduate? I I, how do I explain this to, right. it constantly comes in the way, but also it's, when it comes to service, I try to just be like, okay, listen. If you think I'm a 23-year-old, how can I serve you as a. As a 23-year-old, maybe you'll take my ideas more seriously as like a young person as opposed to, someone who's starting to get washed in their thirties. so lemme just take advantage of that in whatever way I can.

Now, let me go back a bit to the previous question.

Yeah.

So having gone through that a little bit, yourself, is that something that is. In your mind to be aware of as you get older, and how you relate to those coming behind you.

Yeah, I think my grandpa just made it very clear. also it's important to consider. we were, all, our whole community was functioning within the Tariqa paradigm, under the spiritual mentorship of my grandfather, where there was a formal like, okay, you are somebody that I trust that has taken this spiritual tradition of Islam, of like. How do I actually make my belief that God, created everything, the good and the bad, the bitter and the sweet. How do I take that and move in the world with that understanding and actually like internalize that, how do I actually take my prayers five times a day, and actually make it something that's very real in the way that I engage again with the world, like bringing that. the legal tradition and the theological tradition to life, through the mentorship of somebody who learned from somebody who learned from somebody all the way back to the prophet. My grandfather was the sort of spiritual mentor or the sheikh of that community. And so we were like, we were in the Qadri Tariqa and we were functioning in that sort of system. my grandfather had like different deputies that he'd be like, okay, you're gonna handle this and I'm gonna handle that. And I'm in Chicago six months and Hyderabad about six months. Who's gonna handle these different areas while I'm in different spots? And I really felt like a soldier in that mission of just like, how do we serve people in these areas? And I'm given this task, how do I fulfill that? And so I try to bring that. Mentality, to the people that I work with as well. like for example, I had to go to Chicago for graduation, so I told one of my middle schoolers, I was like, all right, Bismillah, you gave the khubah a couple times, you know what to do. You have my email, let me know if you have any questions. You got it right. And he's just like. Sir. Yes, sir. I try to bring that even just like talking to people as if they know what they're doing sometimes gives them the confidence to be like, I know what I'm doing. and I really felt like that's what my grandfather did was like, what's a 13-year-old gonna know about, like, translating cultures and all these. but that gave me the confidence to actually begin that journey. And I look back at it now, like almost 20 years later, like Alhamdulillah,, I have a master of Divinity because of that confidence that was instilled in me 20 years ago. So I definitely bring that with me. Definitely.

So there are some, aspects of leadership that I think that we can lift up from what you just mentioned. what does leadership mean to you and how do you actualize that?

Yeah, I think, especially coming from the Tariqa paradigm where there's a lot of talk about like embodiment, and chaplaincy similarly. mentions embodiment a lot. I think just like embodying like, all of these things and just moving and interacting and engaging with people, with all of these things in mind. like for example, if I'm, talking to a middle schooler and I'm asking. Him like, oh, are you ready? Can you lead the prayer today? ask, first of all, engaging with him, with letting him know like, I'm asking you because I believe in you. I'm not saying that, but when I look at him, that's. That's like I have to, like, before I start that interaction, look in my heart and be like, okay, what am I doing? I'm gonna, I'm gonna go up to a 13-year-old, a 12-year-old, what was I thinking when I was 12 and 13? And how can I bring what I would've needed at that moment to this kid in this interaction? And it's not necessarily gonna be in what I say or 'cause human beings like, I'm gonna mess up. I'm gonna have bad days. I might not. package something in the best way. But if I can in my heart, look at this kid with the type of empathy and love and concern of just like, Hey man, I believe in you. I really think you can do a great job. And listen, if you're making the adhan and you don't know how to make the adhan, let me coach you through it and then I'll stand right in front of you as you do it. And a lot of times these kids know how to do something. they're just scared. And just me standing there. Looking at 'em smiling, letting them know that like, Hey, you're doing great. You know what I mean? And even when they make a mistake correcting 'em real quick and being like, all right, keep going. You got this, you're doing great. Like those little things that come from a level of concern. It's emotionally exhausting to do that. But that's because real things are happening when you do that. It's not just like in your head and not real like, and people feel that, and I think that's the type of leadership that I've received and benefited from. And so that's what I try to, give back.

Let me shift gears a little bit. I wanna ask you about a challenge. What's the biggest challenge you've had to face thus far? And how did you deal with it?

Biggest challenge. Biggest challenge? Yeah. When, in regards. To like this, this community service work? yeah, the, there's been a lot of challenges. I think just one recent challenge has just been, moving from Chicago to Southern California. I've lived in India. I lived in India when I was 13, just for a year. And I lived in Egypt for two years. when I was, in my twenties. And, but moving from Chicago to California, it's like a, it's like my whole conception of America, of the whole country was just like Chicago and just being in California, I. I'm starting to realize how much of, my assumptions about the country and the community in America is based off of Chicago and that there are differences and how can you like approach things. and just constant moving that I've done, like even when I was young. I never really stayed in a place for more than two years. sometimes it would just be to the other side of the neighborhood. Sometimes it would be from one suburb to another, to the city to back and forth. constantly changing schools. And the challenge always is like, okay, it's an opportunity to be like, okay, I have a reset here. Like I can decide how I wanna show up at this new place and I don't have to deal with baggage of whatever I had at the last place. But, it also like begs the question of like. So what are you gonna do with it? for example, in high school it's like much more black and white, right? Like, you have the jocks that are super into sports. You have the people that are super into musics, people super into like whatever, like, And you pick your lunch table. And I think life is like that. And just moving from Chicago to California has really forced me to be like, okay, if I'm not, fighting the Chicago politics and I'm now in California, who am I now? if I'm not, in America dealing with, like, one, one thing that's always like interesting as an immigrant is like, I'm not. I'm not black, I'm not white, I'm not, I'm this like third category. And so in a lot of the spaces that I go, it's like I'm constantly perceived as something. and it's like the biggest challenge is being like, who am I outside of all of these contextual things? And just being able to find like a footing, like being at IMAN last year, I was a chaplaincy student, just engaging with, the neighborhood, issues of. 63rd and California, and I was some, someone from Devon, so trying to understand what that looks like. And I think the challenge is always like, how do you show up and be yourself, and figure out what your lane is? and I've just continued to try to do that. especially now that I have an MDiv I have, I'm at another crossroads like what am I gonna do with it and how am I gonna, use all of these things that I've, been given through this education, through all my experiences to just keep moving forward. I think a lot of times, people end up philosophizing and be like, okay, this is my identity. This is who I am and what I'm gonna do. And it's like Allah has for me in my life, just constantly pushed me to be like, okay, you thought that was your identity? All right, now you're over here now. So what, who are you now? What are you gonna do now? And, being in California, I think it's just another opportunity for me to really get deeper into like, what is it exactly that I wanna spend this life doing? And actually, there was an organizing training here at, Isla, la one of the professors, at Bayan actually, is the Imam there, Dr. Imam, Dr. Jihad Saafir. And, it's one of the reasons that actually I was very happy to move to Southern California. And, at Isla we had an organizing training, Imam Tahir Abdullah, formerly the chaplain at U Chicago

U of C.

That's right. He was just like, he was like, look, if we're gonna be doing any type of service, let's just make it plain and simple. We're gonna die one day. We're gonna meet Allah before that happens. How can I rack up as many good deeds as possible so that when I meet Allah, I have a better chance of it being a good meeting? And I was like, at its core, that's what it's gotta be. It can't be like, I'm gonna be the person that serves in this way, or I'm gonna be the person that does this and this and this. And I think just getting through all that fluff. That's also just been like my life journey of my grandfather. Like, okay, you're not just Indian anymore. like it was easier for us. Now you're like doing this new thing. What does that look like? I think that's been the challenge and alhamdulillah. I think through that challenge I've been able to crystallize more and more. oh, how I can show up in any place immediately and just start working and just start serving, no matter, how I fit into that.

So that really is to say that the identity that we clinging to Or that we associate with being who we are. Is really a response, right. We respond to our environments. That's right. And, and different environments require different responses. So we may have to be one thing in one space, and we may have to be another thing in another space. But still being true to our core beliefs.

That's right. that's right.

So yeah, that was really, really interesting. what have you seen that's different in Southern California in comparison to Chicago? I.

Yeah. And of course all of this is gonna be based on my experience, but my experience of Chicago is that it is an extremely segregated city. Yeah. man, it,

yeah,

on you have the east side of Dev. East of Western is one way. West of Western is one way, and that's just one neighborhood. And you deal with all of the neighborhoods of Chicago and you're gonna end up with so many different communities, with so many different backgrounds and issues, and. Strengths and opportunities and challenges. And that's just the city. And it's like so many of the Muslims are also in the suburbs and that has its own like, I don't wanna say politics, but like dynamics, Yeah. and also Chicago is just has such a long history. I mean everything from like, the Imam Warith Deen Mohammed community, the Nation of Islam is right in Chicago. And then of course you have MCC on Elston, and then you have all of the suburban masjid's that come about afterwards, after all of that. And it's like all of these. Different communities are doing their work. And it's like a lot of times the difficulty in America that as opposed to like India for example, or even Egypt, is like the institution is so hard to maintain that it almost becomes like institution or bust, Like, like we need to preserve the institution because it is so challenging to get. Funding to be able to just sustain the actual building that we have, And it becomes very focused on how do we just keep this thing alive? versus in California it's a little bit, newer, they do have the Garden Grove masjid, which Dr. Muzammil H. Siddiqi from what I am learning, he was very close with Imam Warith Deen Mohammed, and he established his masjid very early on. And. they have this long history, but in general, it's funny to me, like a lot of the masjid's here are like, oh, we're an established masjid we've been here since 2005. I'm like, what? That's a baby masjid. The Chicago terms like, yeah, 2005, How about 1961, or 19 earlier than that, Yeah. I think that also, allows for people to like be like, the institution is new. There's, there, it's a lot less, low stakes for us to like maybe introduce new ideas or. Or tweak things here and there, and there's not this pressure of just like, no, this is like a, this institution is alive because the people that you know worked for it had these ideas. Versus in India it's just like, oh, we have an endowment that's like, been preserving this and we have a new board. We'll do something new. that was my experience when I was in India was like, it was a lot less low stakes also, Muslims are a minority in India, but they're a very big minority. The, they're a huge minority. And so the, just the collective like power that they have is like, right. it's not all hinged on this handful of institutions, in any given city. So I think all of those. Things, make a big difference. in California. the communities here are a lot more willing, and open in my experience to work with each other. there's not a lot of history maybe for some of them or whatever the case is. Also just like, I think redlining in the Midwest is just so different. even the communities here, like, it's so funny. When I was trying to move here, I was like asking my friends like, oh, okay. Like. What areas, do you feel like, would be good for like a young family and things like that. And they're just like, oh, you move anywhere and everything is pretty much, it's all Southern California. And I was like, oh, okay. Chicago, I was in Uber driver for four years, so I'm like, you give me an address and I'll tell you exactly what that neighborhood is like. Exactly what the pros and the cons and the strengths and the weakness. All that's, I could give you a whole thing,

Right,

right. just from a street corner and it's like, in California it's just, it is just very different. So I even, I'm even, I'm adjusting to that. I'm realizing I have this like really like, alright, we gotta break these lines. And everyone's just like, yeah, there's lines, but they're not as. Hard as they are in the Midwest. And so people are actually a lot more open. And so that's actually an opportunity that I'm really happy to discover here is like LA County, orange County, San Bernardino County, Riverside County. All these like counties are actually like, they're all, they've already been working together for such a long time. I'm like, oh wow. Like, that's a beautiful thing to see, especially for me, I also realizing how much trauma I have about like. All this masjid opened up right next to the other masjid because we want, we rival masjid's. It's like, man, dealing with that was really difficult. really difficult growing up.

Yeah. that's crazy to think about, rival masjid's and

my goodness,

but it's a reality, unfortunately in certain instances. what has that MDiv. Done for you or added to your. to your toolbox, if you will, someone who has this experience of traditional learning. what has it added to it?

Yeah. when I went to Egypt in 2014, my intention was like, all right, I'm gonna study the tradition. I'm gonna do the whole thing, and. And, but I was like, let me take it one step at a time. So I was like, let me just do the Arabic program here, and then after that we'll see where it goes. So I finished the Arabic program and, I, I really loved it. I really loved it. And towards the end of my Arabic program, I even started doing traditional classes, that were in and around, Zahar, different scholars just teaching in different messages and things like that. and it was really, I just loved being in that environment. But one thing that like, my grandfather, Allah Alah, have mercy on him, and increase him in his, in his rank. He passed away in 2015 and up until 2015 I had an extremely like intimate partner, intellectual thought. Partner to be like, what about this? I know that Hyderabadi Muslims, the, Hyderabad is a city in South India. I know that Hyderabadi Muslims are doing this, but what about the Gujarati Muslims or the Pakistani Muslims? Or the Syrians or the Palestinians or the Black Muslims or the Somali Muslims or all of these different groups, and I'm like trying to like engage with them and I'm like, does, is this actually necessary? I know we've been doing it for generations, but is this actually the core of what's necessary? Can I actually push and he'll be like. listen, we've been doing this for a long time, right? And I'm just like, no, but it, I don't think it's gonna work. And being able to have that conversation, in 2015, I didn't have that anymore, and I felt a little bit lost. I felt like, okay, I'm studying all of these things, but all of a sudden I don't have somebody that I can, bring that into conversation with and be like, okay, I'm learning all this. Egyptian Islam. Okay. It's all sunni Islam, but it's an Egyptian coloring. how does that correlate with the Indian sort of understanding of it? And then how do both of those go back to Rogers Park? And, I was like, I, if I don't have that close and intimate thought partner in this whole thing, I don't really know if I'm gonna be able to benefit from just like, studying like. Arabic grammar and legal text. It's like I, I no longer saw like the long-term vision where I was like, I think I need, I need to like, equip myself with the tools to be able to do this, more independently, this like thought exchange and like trying to understand. And so when I came back. I finished up my, I, picked up my undergrad that I had left off and I finished that and I was like, okay, let me see if there's some sort of maybe academic Islamic studies program or maybe just spending time with American Scholars outside of my community. and I came across the Bayan program, the chaplaincy program, and for me it was just like, oh, you have traditional scholars, academically trained scholars, people doing community work all over the country, all coming to one place and doing this thing called chaplaincy, which is basically like being in Imam outside of the masjid. I'm like,

right,

you're just being an imam at the hospital or at the, corrections facility or in a community organizing. a cohort or whatever that is, or in a university, like, they're just taking the tradition and putting it into conversation with real life. which to me, coming from the Tariqa paradigm, I was like, that's what I've been doing for generations. And I was like, that fits. That actually fits, And they're talking about all this internal stuff, like, you gotta make sure you're internally right and we're gonna try to, things are gonna come. I was like, that sounds a lot like Islamic spirituality that I grew up with, so there's a lot of overlap here. And so to me it was like, oh, all those, like all that, dialogue and debate that I had with my grandfather to be able to figure this thing out. The chaplaincy program is giving me those tools to be able to do that as I'm engaging with not just my insular community on Devon, but the wider like American Muslim experience and just like global Muslim experience, intergenerational, historic, And so I was like, I was blown away that a program like that could exist. and the three year program took me four years to finish. Four years later. I'm like everything that I thought that the chap, 'cause everyone's just like, oh, what's chaplaincy? Isn't that a Christian thing? All that kind of stuff, like and I would have those questions too. I'm like, am I romanticizing this? am I projecting what I wanted to be? before years later? I'm like, man, it's even more what I was looking for then, I even thought before, so like now, when I read a book by an Islamophobe, I I have some understanding about what philosophical framework is he using. Yeah. And what assumptions does he have about the things that he's talking about? What good can I take from this islamaphobe, what critique is he offering that might be useful and what things need to be discarded and how can I do that with, other Muslims who I might not agree with? How can I do that with. atheists who I don't agree with on certain things and agree with on certain, basically this dynamic engagement, I actually have tools to be able to do that more independently and, in community, with other learners, with professors, with, activists with everybody. And that to me was like, okay, now I can go back to the tradition now. and that's why I'm so grateful to have the majlis seminary. With a professor from Bayan, Sheikh Fouad Elgohari he also helps run, this seminary, the Majlis seminary, where they're going through traditional books. But it's like, now I'm able to ask really good questions. and, and alhamdulillah, I'm have the practice of that already with my grandfather, but now I'm able to do it, with anybody that I engage with. And so that, that chaplaincy piece from so many different angles, the spiritual angle, as well as the sort of academic thought, intellectual angle, has just been extremely useful, especially the way that Bayan does it. Where you have, for example, professors like Imam Jihad Saafir and Sheikh Fouad Elgohari and so many others. That are traditionally trained and academically trained, giving you a core foundation and then exposing you to everything that's out there, that's not traditional, that's this, that's everything. And being like, okay, talk to me. What do you think about this? so it's, it really is exactly what I had been looking for, in terms of my own personal journey.

Earlier you talked about the practical application, There's a, the difference between the theorizing and the application. How have you seen your. your educational pursuits manifest in a practical sense, and are there, and are there other objectives that you want to achieve, in a practical sense, whether, individually or communally?

Yeah, I think, one of the things that I admired about my family's legacy was like they were scholars. Like my great-grandfather, Maulana Syed Shah Habibullah Quadri he was. Sheikh-ul-Jammia like, he was like the president, the sheikh of the school called Jammia Nazamia in Hyderabad, which was an Islamic university. People studied there. They became scholars there, and he was the head sheikh there at the same time living in India and South India. He said, all of this academic stuff is great, but as I'm growing my family and I'm choosing where I, what I want to do in my personal life, he was like, let me find. A Hindu temple and become neighbors with the worshipers at that temple. And, in, in that part of an old city Hyderabad, a neighbor means like, the distance between one side of my car to the other side of the car, like the door to the Hindu temple was on my left. And the door to my house was on the, like, that's how close we were. So every Sunday we would hear them doing their worship at I think like nine o'clock, and they would sing their songs and do their music. and we were right there. We could hear it every morning. We knew like, oh, okay, they're starting their worship. We would turn our TV down a little bit, nobody eats beef in Hyderabad. Why?

Yeah,

because the cow is a sacred animal, to our Hindu neighbors, our brothers and sisters. And so we eat lamb. We're like, we don't really eat beef. 'cause I just outta respect, It's not like a religious ruling. This is just like a love thing. Like we love each other, we are living together. This is what we do. To me that's practical. That's not something you can find in a legal book, And then at 10 o'clock my great-grandfather would host a Tafsir year class, and we got breakfast and we got tea, and we got all different types of things. And everybody is welcome. Once a month we're gonna have a, a Qawwali. Concert you might call it. But really that's not what it is. It's more like a, like a, intentional sacred ceremony where, religious music is played and people listen. Listen, and they listen to the music, they listen to the lyrics and they, and everybody is sitting together in this poetry and it's music and all these things, and it's music that sounds just. It's like the worship that we hear actually at 9:00 AM on Sunday. The sounds and the musical scales and everything, the, in everything is the same. But we're singing about Allah and the prophet and they're singing about their theological beliefs. and that becomes an invitation. And all of our Hindu neighbors would come and they'd be like, oh, listen, we like music. you guys sing about things that we don't agree with, but we like music and you have. Free food like that sounds great to me. That's practical, right? That's practical. Like people wanna eat, that's free food. Come on, people wanna eat. That's right's, right? At the end of the day, people want to eat. If you ca, if you have food, you'll be able to bring in people again. You're not gonna find that in aqeedah book, in, in a fiqh book, a book of the theology or of legal codes and all these things. Like that's just a matter of love. That's just a matter of service. and so for me now having like more of a toolbox. I'm looking to continue, studying and just being, just being in the company of scholars and having these conversations with them. Understanding the sort of veracity of the Islamic classical tradition, and putting it in conversation with real life issues that I'm coming across. being part of community at places like, Isla la having been at, IMAN in Chicago, That was what I loved about it is just like, alright, let's take this tradition, put it in conversation with things that are happening in our community there in places where the realities of America cannot be ignored. and continuing to engage with Isla and they have a beautiful Ilm and Amal program, that, the day that I moved to California, they had their last class, and It was so amazing. I was just like. I, they did a whole summer intensive where it was

So a knowledge. A knowledge and work program.

Yes. Yes. Know knowledge, and knowledge and good works. And, it was basically a community organizing training. It was like, political education and just giving everybody the foundation that they needed spiritually, on a community level on a. Family institution level on a greater national level of just like, how do we bring these things into conversation? I think just being part of these organizations and just being able to contribute in whatever way and just seeing where Allah takes me Right now. I'm also a middle school teacher, in Irvine, California. which also has been such a great opportunity for me to be able to build solidarity, and really teach these kids from a young age. Like, Hey guys, like, we're in Irvine, and we have a lot of blessings and gifts. How come everybody in Santa Ana and Anaheim still in Orange County, but on the other side of Orange County? how come they have such different lives? how come we never go to LA County? How come we never go to San Bernardino, Riverside? Like what? I'm just trying to get them to think about these things. How can we actually work in solidarity together? And the only reason that we are not facing the issues that they're facing is because structurally we've created a bubble where those issues are removed. So as Muslims, how can we break through those? they're a lot more invisible, here. where we're like, oh, it's all Southern California. It's not all Southern California. we're living very different lives. How can we as Muslims find out what those issues are that are swept under the rug in areas like Irvine and be like, no, as Muslims here in Irvine, we're gonna serve all of our brothers and sisters and we're gonna be, as Muslims, we're gonna be at the forefront. How can we learn from the legacy? Of, masjids like Isla masjid ibad'Allah in South LA that have been doing this for a long time with Imam Siddiq Saafir, Imam Jihad Saafir father, and all these things, and how can we just like build a stronger coalition? And I think my chaplaincy skills have really allowed me to be able to speak to an eighth grader who's just like, what are you even talking? You know what I mean? Like to really make that a real thing for them. my chaplaincy skills and just my community organizing. exposure that I started to have at IMAN and I'm starting to have a little bit more at Isla. I think all of those things like that to me is like the real work. Like you have everyday people going through issues and you have these things that divide us. How can we build solidarity and then solve those issues so that in the words of Imam Tahir, like before we meet Allah, rack up those good deeds. that's plain and simple what we're looking to do.

Alright, our last question. this is really more of a fill in the sentence.

Okay.

The one lesson I keep learning is,

The one lesson I keep learning is don't take yourself so serious. I've been taking myself real serious for a long time, and one, one of the beautiful things about my grandfather was he would always, he as. he's telling a 13-year-old to be extremely radical. He's like, listen, the world is burning and we need to be at the forefront of trying to figure that out. And if we're not at the forefront, who is at the forefront so we can partner with them to be able to figure these things out. Like we need to cut, very serious talk. My grandfather was one of the funniest people I met.

really

when I say people were going through his living room all day. My grandpa's cracking jokes. We're eating food, we're even making fun of each other. Like it's, everyone's so familiar and close with each other that it was like the only way that he was able to have that the mindset and demeanor of like service, like, boom, wake up in the morning. What are we gonna do with our life today? Like, we woke up. That's a gift. The only way that he was able to do that was he was like, it's actually not me working. I'm not doing anything. Allah subhana'wa'tala can use me or he cannot use me. People can see me do work or I might just have intention my whole life, and that's all I contribute to society. But Allah, saw my intention and insha'Allah I'll have a good ending. So it's like it's, don't take yourself so serious. It's not even about you, Allah's working. Allah has a plan, and either he makes us part of the plan or he doesn't. We pray that we're part of the plan, at least by intention, and hopefully also that we're given the tawfeeq the divine facilitation to be able to like actually contribute and be part of real change. But like, for example, like I have two small kids. I got a 2-year-old and a one month old. So like right now my service is just like making sure my. Like driving home as fast as I can and just, Hey, go to sleep. Go take a walk. Whatever. I got him. I got one in the carrier, one in my arms crying. We'll figure it out. just go,

Right.

So just don't take yourself so serious. That's the one lesson. Yep.

Alhamdulillah. Alhamdulillah. I really appreciate you taking this time, chaplain Ali Nasaruddin, to talk with us. May Allah continue to bless you, in all of your work and bless your intentions.

Ameen.

As Salaamu Alaikum, Beloved.

Wa Alaikum As Salaam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatahu

Alright, family. Thank you for joining us for another episode of the American Muslim Podcast. If you found value in this conversation, if it gave you direction, if it sparked inspiration or simply affirmed what you already knew to be true, then we ask you to do two things. First, subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen and share it with someone you care about. We also invite you to deepen your journey by joining our growing community of learners. Head over to bayan online.org and get your all access passed to over 30 dynamic courses taught by some of the most respected Muslim scholars and practitioners in the country. New content is being added all the time, and finally, support those who are serving our communities. Over 70% of Bayan students receive scholarships to continue their work in chaplaincy education, nonprofit leadership, and just about any area of community involvement and support. So contribute to the Muhammad Ali Scholarship fund at bayanonline.org. Invest in holistic community wellness, leadership, and care. That's it for now. Until next time, I'm your host, Imam Tariq El-Amin. I leave you as I greeted you. As Salaamu Alaikum may the peace that only God can give be upon you.