All right, Lawyer Talk podcast. Check us out. LawyerTalkPodcast.com Just because nobody else has done it, we're going to cover the Tiger Woods DUI arrest. I mean, come on, how do you, how do you not touch on this?

It's kind of interesting. That's the second time around, too. It's perfect. He's the best ever do it. I'm saying.

Yeah, he's right. Look, it takes practice. He spends a lot of time at the range, so it takes practice. So look, how many jokes are we going to make about it before we get serious? We'll weave them in. So we'll get to the eye of the tiger. Real soon my kids will be saying, that's a dad joke. And it is. Anyway, look, in all seriousness, I've done DUI defense for my entire career. I'm 31 years in now, and all sorts of other defense too. But DUI is one of these areas of law. It's about as complicated as it gets. And I say that having defended complex federal conspiracy cases, state court murder cases and everything in between. A speeding case all the way up. And some cases just have a lot of stuff baked into it. And let me sort of outline what those are before we dig into this. You have Fourth Amendment law, meaning whenever there's a drunk driving arrest, there's usually a police stop of a motor vehicle, which we all know because we've discussed it, is a significant intrusion which requires justification on the fourth Amendment. Then we have the cops ordering somebody out of the car. Another fourth Amendment implication. Then we have typically some custodial type of stuff going on, maybe resulting in a full blown arrest. Again, a fourth Amendment problem. So there's lots of constitutional stuff going on in the typical dui and people don't really realize how much law is made as a result of that.

Does seem like it on the face.

Because it's a misdemeanor.

They I think all this is just.

So in Ohio, it's a misdemeanor traffic offense. It's not even defined as a criminal offense. But yet here we have all this constitutional law developed as a result of drunk driving. Burkermer versus McCarty. My mentor Bill Meeks argued that case up in the U.S. supreme Court. We had a question about this too. We should cover it. But it talks about whether you get Miranda rights during a typical DUI stop. So look, lots of cool constitutional stuff going on. If you're a geek like we are and you like this constitutional litigation, then start at the beginning of the DUI book and Read constitutional stuff. Anyway, you also have scientific evidence, so you have this. We're going to talk about this in Tiger's case. But field sobriety testing, what's the scientific basis for that? Chemical breath testing, blood testing, urine testing. When you start digging into these things in a DUI setting, we have experts we use from all over the country that come in and talk about gas chromatography. When you have a blood test, we talk about anticoagulants. I've actually had these test tubes before of my client's blood, and I'm sending pictures to my expert, and he's looking at and saying no, he's drawing conclusion based on that. There's lots of really detailed science that goes into alcohol testing. Breath testing is just a perennial debate about its reliability. Urine testing, that's like the redhead struck.

At your core, didn't it? The breath testing one?

Yeah, it did. I wrote my. Believe it or not, I was on law review back in the old days, and I wrote my law review article on chemical breath testing in Ohio. But it's funny how breath testing, it tends to get the stamp of reliability.

It's the truth machine.

It is the truth machine. It's like a lie detector, and it may be the least reliable, but urine testing gets the same kind of thing. They're not all as accurate as people think, but they do have some accuracy. So anyway, you have the scientific evidence that you have to take apart. Often in DUI cases, then you have the administrative law. So, you know, people are asking me, I did an interview with a buddy of mine named Jeremy Loper. He's now a DJ down in Chattanooga at a local radio station, and he was asking me about license suspensions. Like, wait a minute, what's the deal if you don't take a breath test? Don't you have a license suspension? That's all administrative law. In Ohio, we have something called an administrative license suspension. So if you refuse a breath test, what's the consequence?

One year suspended license.

Yeah. On a typical first offense, one year administrative suspension. If you take a test and blow over the legal limit or register result over legal limit, in theory, it's only 90 days. But all that goes out the window because when you go to court, they all sort of go up to a year if you plead guilty. Anyway, so a different discussion, but a lot of administrative implications to that. Dealing with your Department of Motor Vehicles. In Ohio, we call it the Bureau of Motor Vehicles. And then all the while, you're dealing with clients and possible addiction issues and substance abuse. Stuff going on. Maybe at the same time of dui, somebody had a firearm in the car, so now you've got a felony. Or maybe they had some pills in their pocket, so now you've got another felony. It just. It's complicated stuff. Yeah, he's a law student. He's going to be your lawyer. Anyway, so with that backdrop, let's talk about Tiger, because it's not always so cut and dry as people think. I heard this. The typical reaction I get. Somebody comes to my office and they say, hey, Palmer, I got a dui. I was in an accident. It's hopeless. I'm thinking to myself, not so fast there, grasshopper, muchacho. It might be a little. Might not be as hopeless as you think, because people get in accidents all the time, and they're not drunk or under the influence of any alcohol or drugs. And sometimes accident cases tend to give us defenses that we wouldn't otherwise have. And this is what's going on in Tiger's case. So, first of all, the accident, I think he rear ended a guy who's turning.

It was more like a sideswipe. He hit like a truck, and then that caused him to, like, kind of like roll his car over.

And I think the truck was pulling a trailer, and I don't think it was a direct in the back impact. So it's not like he just missed it all together. He was actually making a maneuver. Now, does that matter? It does. If I'm talking to a jury, it does. You know, it's a different. Yeah. You can't just assume that the accident is this guy's just blackout drunk and missed it. There are other reasons for it. So we'd first be digging into the accident, and then Tiger's truck rolled over. I have not seen yet. Do you know if the airbag's deployed?

I don't know. I just remember seeing the one picture. Whoever his car detailer is does an amazing job because that car was, like, amazing looking for being outside. Spotless. Yeah.

So here's the thing. If somebody's in an accident, particularly a rollover accident, all too often, more often than not, the airbags are going to deploy. Whether it's the side curtain airbags, your driver's or the steering wheel airbag, the one in front, or any of the others. I have never experienced this. Have you?

A rollover?

No. An airbag deploy in your car while you're driving. I've never experienced it, but I've seen clients come in the next day and their eyes are all red. They've got some stippling sometimes and in fact, if they tell you not to drive, here's a little aside I'll tell you about. I learned this. Some people turn under the steering wheel like this. So you grab the steering wheel like that and you make your turn from the top over. Don't do that. Do you know why?

Because I'm going to punch myself in the face when the airbag goes off.

No, worse, what happens is you're covering the airbag with your forearm and one of the most common injuries in that situation is the airbag has so much power behind breaks people's arms. Yeah. So you're better off driving. I'm not saying 10 and 2. Pick it. What? But don't get your hand, don't get your arm in front of the airbag in the middle of the steering wheel. The point I'm making here is it's a pretty traumatic event when airbags deploy and it's very disorienting. People get. It can cause red eyes, it can cause bloodshot eyes, it can cause people to be a little disoriented. And then if you couple that with a complete rollover where a car is like sliding on the ground and somebody's head is, you might even have a little bit of a concussion. So head injury type stuff. And what are the symptoms of that? I mean you've been with me when I've cross examined people on this, they're.

Going to be stumbling around, their speech is going to be a little slurred up, it's going to look like a lot of stuff that as if they're drunk. But really they just got their world rocked right by an airbag.

So you're good. A lot of these things will mimic symptoms of alcohol and or drug impairment. Now to all those people out there saying you're just a defense lawyer and you're saying this crap and this is all smoke and mirrors. Well, maybe you're right, I don't care. But we're talking about is how I would defend Tiger woods case. And this is true. So if you've seen somebody, it's just been in a rollover accident and had airbags deploy, they may well be a little disoriented, they may well have bloodshot eyes, they may well have some confusion and maybe even some slurred speech. If you're concussed, little unsteadiness, a little unsure of yourself and then couple that with a cop in your face, then the nerves start going. So this is why these crash cases sometimes give you A little bit of a gift.

I feel like the nerves are going the other way. I imagine Tiger's not nervous in front of a cop. I feel like the cop is more nervous in front of Tiger, maybe.

I mean, like, look, let's take the other side. If you're arguing it, this is the man who won the Masters. This is the man with ice in his veins. This is the man who can stripe it right down the middle or even if he's in trouble, he tends to pull off the shot out of the rough at the US Open, over the trees and land five feet away and drain a putt to win. Like, come on, this guy can handle the pressure.

Body cam. The cops just shaking.

Putting the breathalyzer up, too, Right. Well, look, how does this all play with respect to an investigation? The very first thing the cops would do is, you're saying, yeah. So the cops are. They encounter Mr. Woods, they ask him a few questions, and what's next?

I probably want to do field sobriety.

Or field sobriety test. There we go. So field sobriety testing. Believe it or not, there's a whole manual on this. The National Highway Traffic. National Highway Traffic Safety association has a manual, the standard for DUI detection. Officers are trained under this manual. And the manual sort of gives the officers the playbook on how they're supposed to engage their suspects. And the first is the initial interaction. You go up to the suspect, you try to observe clues. Like, say, a typical stop would be if I have trouble handing you my paperwork, or I don't understand what you're saying. Actually, the first step is if you're observing driving. So let me back up. The first phase is driving. What clues do you see? Believe it or not, speeding is not a clue. People think it is, but just speeding is not generally considered a clue by nhtsa, the National Highway Traffic Safety association, to be linked with alcohol impairment. But things like a short turn or if you don't use your signal or you miss something, you know, swerving clearly is the big one. So that's the first. And the second is. The second stage is interaction with the suspect. And here you're looking for these clues, like, did they have trouble giving you the thing or finding their paperwork or understanding what you're asking, or did they give you inconsistent information about what they were doing? These are all clues the police are trained to look for. Then in a typical situation, they would order you out of the car. Here, Tiger has already climbed out of the car. And like a good defense lawyer, I would say, well, hold on A second. I mean, what would you. You do the cross for me? What would I be doing if I.

Was cross examine Tiger or the cop?

The cop. Tiger's already. Tiger's had this rollover crash, and he's managed to extract himself, I think, through the passenger side out of the vehicle.

I'd probably start from the very beginning. Just saying your first observations was you saw Tiger getting out of the car.

Or he was out of the car one way or another. Yeah, he was.

You saw him moving around? Was he stumbling around? Was he just walking normally?

Hold on. You would first say, look, I don't know if anybody cares about this. We're gonna do it anyway. We're gonna first say, look, let's start with what you saw when you got there. This car was on its side, is that right?

Yes.

All right. And because it was on its side, it was on the driver's side. Yes. And that means that a driver couldn't get out of the car from the driver's side. Correct. And if a driver's wearing a seatbelt, he would have to first unlatch his seatbelt to get out of the car.

Yes.

And make his way to sort of up at that point. Climbing. Yes. Navigating whatever stuff has been thrown around the car.

Yes.

And maybe even put the window down. Yes. And pull himself out of the passenger side door or window.

Yes.

Fighting gravity the whole way.

Tiger's a pretty fit guy.

Oh, he is pretty fit. But he would be fighting gravity the whole way. Yes.

Yes.

Fit or not, you would have to fight gravity the whole way. Even somebody unfit.

Yes.

But Tiger did that. Yes. Or at least it would seem that way since he was out of the car.

Yeah.

And then he managed to then climb off the car, and once he got his feet on the ground, he managed to walk around where you interacted with him. You see what we're doing? I mean, the point is, Tiger, you would be pointing out all the things that Tiger was able to do that would indicate he wasn't impaired. Now, look, is this going to be successful? I don't know, but that's what I'd be doing. But back to the point. NHTSA standards train these cops to look for these initial clues of impairment during their interaction with the driver on the side of the road. Then they get to field sobriety testing. And there are three basic standardized tests for DUI detection or OVI detection. In Ohio, we call it ovi. It's all the same. A drunk by any other name is still a drunk. So a drunk driver by Any, I should say a DUI by any other name is still a dui. Anyway. There are three standardized field sobriety tests that NHTSA has approved and officers are trained on. Do you know what they are?

It is the eye test, which is the horizontal glaze, nostalgia gaze, nostalgia stylus, and then the walking back and forth and then the balance on a foot.

All right, so, yes.

I don't know the proper names for that one.

We're going to learn them. So the first you talked about was something called a horizontal gaze nystagmus or hgn, or in bar banter. That's the eye test that everybody thinks they pass when they didn't really pass or they don't even know they passed because it's involuntary. The second would be a one leg stand. So hold your leg up six inches off the ground, counted 30. And if you put the clues these cops look for. And the third is the walk and turn test. Walk down, do this funky little pivot turn or pivot turn, and nobody ever thinks that nobody would ever turn that way and then walk back. So there are things that the police are trained to look for here. They're trained to give clues. And that's, I think, what happened here. I think there was some field sobriety tests. But at any rate, one of the things that's in the NHTSA manual is you're supposed to ask. The police are supposed to ask if the person has any injuries that would prevent them from doing the test. And what the police do with this always fascinates me because it's somewhat of a surprise. They. It's always good for me if somebody has an injury. So I say, troy, would you like to do these tests? Do you have any injuries that prevent you from doing these tests?

I have astigmatism.

Well, forget about the eye test. Talk about the. Because I'm going to get to. I have a joke I want to tell about that. But, yeah, I got my old trick knee from the army. You know, I've always had trouble. Used to be a parachuter, and I jumped out one day and I got this bad hip and bad knee. I landed wrong. My shoot didn't deploy, and I dropped 10,000ft and I survived.

I'm a pirate. I have a stump.

I have a stump, right. Or I've got a bad back or I'm obese. Overweight is another one that you're trained to ask for.

It's unfortunately the common one.

Yeah, it is. And usually what the police do is say, okay, let's have you do the test anyway. And here you've got. In Tiger's case, there's lots to talk about. First, he's just been in an accident. He's just involved in a rollover, which all those things that we talked about, possible concussion, possible airbag deployment, injuries from the accident, whatever it is. And Tiger is not the most healthy guy right now, at least osteoporathic,.

Fancy medical terms.

Right. His skeletal system is all screwed up. I guess we'll say he's had how many surgeries? Like eight surgeries or six surges on his back, probably. His knees are bad, his hip, he's abused his body. He's got plenty of injuries that would prevent somebody from doing those field sobriety tests effectively. And if the officers asked him, do you have any injuries? And he said, well, I mean, it's not like I haven't had six back surgery. Oh, wait a minute, I did. It's not like my knee's not. Oh, wait, it is. It's not like I've been training all day long and I'm exhausted by him. And it's not like I've just been in this car accident. Those all would impact somebody's field sobriety tests. Again, we started with this notion that maybe accidents are. They seem bad at first, but when you dig into them, there's some gold in there for defense lawyers. So you would ask all those questions or Tiger would give all those answers and the police would do the field sobriety tests anyway. And later on, it's going to come to our office and we're going to challenge it based on that, that those tests aren't really reliable because the questions you're trained to ask. And let's be clear about this. We're talking about. The federal government has told you to do it this way. The federal government told you to ask these questions for a reason, didn't they? Yeah. And you're trained about the reasoning. Yeah. Because people who have these kind of injuries, people who have been through this kind of trauma, they're going to have natural trouble, not related to alcohol impairment, doing these tests. You're going to get all sorts of answers from cops. Well, maybe. What does maybe mean, Officer? I asked you what your training was.

I did it to my best ability.

Yeah, you're trained. Yeah, you did it to your. You're trained to ask people if they have injuries that would preclude them from having the test. Mr. Woods here said that he had an injury that precluded him from having the test. But you don't acknowledge that that would have been a contributing factor to his failure of your test. You know, look, this is how we defend the DUI cases. Anyway. The third test, horizontal gaze. Nystagmus. I want to focus on this for a minute. What this is, guys, is it's an involuntary movement of your eyes. So you can do this at a party. If you show up early to a party or you don't drink, like, I don't drink anymore. But if you show up early to a party or late to a party, and everybody's been there, early drinking rather, and you say, look, let me do a quick test. And you just hold your finger about this far, and you go back and forth. You're going to see people's eyes not following the pen smoothly. And then there's six clues. They look for three on both sides. They go way out here to nystagmus at maximum deviation. So when you see the police hold it out there, you're supposed to look, and your eyes are twitching back and forth. Early onset and nystagmus before 45 degrees. And then something called lack of smooth pursuit. So your eyes don't follow the stimulus regularly. But there's all sorts of things that can cause nystagmus. Some people have it naturally. Most people don't, but some do. Caffeine fatigue, I would say. Concussion symptoms, I would argue, would cause some symptoms that would mimic nystagmus. Alcohol, of course, is one of them. So there are other contributing factors. So if Tiger had nystagmus, again, it's something you can explain away. So Tiger goes through all these tests, and then the next step is, why don't we just be sure Mr. Woods.

Blow into the truth machine.

Blow into the truth machine, and he blows double odd zeros. So he's a zero guy.

He does. Like that fist pump he did after the one.

Yeah, yeah. Zero. Well, hold on a second. We're gonna have you pee.

What? Huh?

I don't want to give my urine. I. I don't have to go. Let's talk about the zeros first. What I would be doing with this is I'd be asking, why did you give them a breath test in the first place? And I wouldn't ask it that way, but I would lead all this to the point here you'd be getting to. And I'd come up with some creative, fun way of doing it, is that you ask somebody to do an alcohol breath test because you think they're under the influence of alcohol. And. And there's no odor of alcohol. So I Wonder if they alleged at some point that Tiger had an odor of alcohol on or about his person. So here's the typical report we see on such and such day. At such and such time, I encountered. After the stop, I did all this. I approached the vehicle, and I noticed a strong odor of alcoholic beverage coming from the passenger compartment. So I ordered Mr. Henriksen out of the car. And once I was out of the car, once he was out of the car, I realized the odor was emitting from his breath, not other people in the car. So. And then I. At that point, I checked his eyes, and I noticed bloodshot and glassy eyes. When he answered my question, I noted slurred speech, and he had to use the car for balance as he exited the motor vehicle. You're going to hear that kind of nonsense. But anyway, something would have triggered the police to want to do a breath test. And I'm curious if it was a. An odor of alcohol, because I get these cases with drugs. Or we're getting to the other side of this. Or drugs of abuse, where the police don't even ask. They immediately jump to a urine test. And I don't know how it's typically done in Florida. So maybe that's my. Maybe they do both always. I have no idea, but I'd be looking for that a little bit. All right, so the urine test. Let's talk about this for a second. So they asked Tiger to pee in a cup, and Tiger says no. It's the first thing everybody thinks.

Why won't you pee in a cup if you're innocent?

I don't want to make any statements until I have my lawyer here.

But you're innocent.

I don't want to make any statements until I'm here.

Make this easier on everybody here.

Yeah, come on. We just want to get your side of the cup. Yeah. So Tiger refuses, leaving the sort of elephant in the room that he is concerned about the prescription medications that he's taking that we all know he's taking because of all these surgeries and all these problems. And therefore, he must be under the influence of a drug of abuse while driving. What's the evidence of that, other than the refusal, which is what I would be arguing.

We all know he's on medication.

All right, so let me. Let me breakdown. I'm not going to talk about Florida. I'm going to talk Ohio, and then we'll talk. Generally, there are two ways you get charged with OBI in Ohio in most states that I'm familiar with. Number one, you are Operating a motor vehicle under the influence of alcohol. This is the old fashioned way. Like your grandpa used to get pulled over because he was just too drunk. And there you would expect, or you would. You're going to see what you would expect. You know, the police are going to say, look, he was unsteady on his feet, bloodshot, glassy eyes, slurred speech, failed field sobriety tests. He's just under the influence. And he was weaving all over the road and he almost hit that antelope on the way in. So he's in Colorado. So. Except we're in Ohio. Anyway, the second way is something called a per se charge, meaning you have a breath test. So it is a crime in Ohio to operate a motor vehicle with a prohibited blood, breath or urine content of alcohol and or drug. So it's just a crime. You could be driving perfectly straight down the road. You could be Mother Teresa and perfectly capable of operating that car. But if you've got a prohibited blood, breath or urine alcohol content, it's a crime to drive. This is designed to address the guys like I used to be. They could drink a whole lot and people wouldn't know. And the law just says we're not going to give those guys a pass. Just because they're good at field sobriety tests and, and they're practiced drunks doesn't mean they should get a pass.

They're doing it for the love of the game.

They're doing it for the love of the game. That's right. So the per se guys. So it's both. Now, in Tiger's case, when they were trying to get a blood or a breath sample and. Or a urine sample, they were looking for that second dui. So the first impaired. So under the influence of something. Second is whether he was operating a motor vehicle with a prohibited substance in his system. And that one's usually checkmate. Unless you. Not you. That one's a lot easier, I would say, for the prosecutors to prove because they've got a test and they don't have to really prove much other than that that was the test. The defense can dig into this and talk about the. We were talking about the science, the chemistry of it and the reliability of it. And there's different things we can do, but sometimes not. Sometimes. Most of the time that's a harder defense for us. So they don't have a test. So now they're back to the first one. And this is where it's a good. I like the defense for Tiger. I'm not saying he's innocent, but I like the defense. Now there's one more topic I want to talk about. Then we're going to wrap it up. There is something out there now called drug recognition experts. D R E. These are wizards. I was going to say. These are like the wizards of the DUI world. These are. I was trying to think of the right word and I think maybe you stopped me. So now the word I was thinking of I can't come up with. But it's good enough. This is like the voodoo of dui and drug recognition experts. They in theory can say, I can tell that you're under the influence of drugs just by looking at you and looking at these 12 things.

I've read his poems and I've come.

To the conclusion you might as well go get a crystal ball. The dres of the world. I'm joking. Because those who do what I do for a living, I mean, we joke about this stuff. Maybe you don't. I don't know. And here's what they look for. The interview of the interview by the arresting officer. Hold on a second. The preliminary examination, including a pulse check. Eye examination. They talk about horizontal gaze nystagmus. Then they have something called vertical nystagmus where they go up and down. And then they have a lack of convergence where they do this crazy stuff where they're supposed to converge divided attention skills. They have something called a modified Romberg test. This is like the old school. Like Steve Martin. Damn, you're drunk. Driving tests are hard. You've never seen a man with two brains. But those who have. It's funny. You tilt your head back and you do this kind of stuff. Close your eyes and see if you fall down. Plus the walk and turn. One leg stand. They're supposed to check your vital signs, Blood pressure, temperature, pulse. Dark room inspection. Pupil size and different light muscle tone check. Come on.

Crazy.

And now I'm reading it. This is Google, by the way. There's a whole book on this. But I'm reading the Google version for fun. Suspect interviews and questioning. Analysis of actions and statements. So now we get to like these really like the suspect analysis of the suspect. So you're just an expert on analyzing me? Yeah. I think you're high on meth, young man. I know the difference between. All right, so, tiger, we need you.

To step into this dark room so our drug wizard can determine what drugs you're on.

The drug wizard Expert. An evaluation and opinion formulation. The toxicology examination. Blood breath. All right, so look, I think that you're high on meth. And it says right here on the test, you're high on meth. I was right. So the real question is, when you don't have the test, does the Dre come into play? And how's that work? So, look, we're making sort of light of this for fun, but here's. Here's. Here's the. Here's the takeaway. I understand Tiger has gone off to rehab out of the country, and he's been approved to do that. Good for him. If he's got a drug problem, go address it. I mean, this is horrible. The good news is here, nobody was hurt. Maybe Tiger was hurt, but I don't think there was an injury for others. We joke about this as. I joke about this as a DUI lawyer. It's sort of like, I gotta do something to keep my sanity. But it is serious business. The first, if anybody's ever heard me talk, we have a whole series on dui. First, do no harm. First. Do not get behind the wheel. First, don't drink at all. The best way not to get a dui, folks, is not to drink. And people say, well, I took an Uber. I did the. No, the best way not to get a DUI is not to consume alcohol in the first place. Because what does alcohol attack the brain. And specifically the part of your brain, the prefrontal cortex, that is designed to assist you in making rational decisions. The alcohol prohibits you from. So here's the scenario. I get it all the time, man. I was doing everything right. Got an Uber to my buddy's house, or I drove to my buddy's house and I was going to crash there. We took an Uber out, and we took an Uber back. And then I just woke up at like 2 in the morning. I wanted to go home. So I got in my car and I drove home.

Keys were jingling.

Or I went out for the booty call or, you know, the fifth meal or the four. Whatever. The Taco Bell meal was calling my name. I wanted to go to White Castle. I needed my chew. I needed a cigarette. Whatever.

It is an exception, the DUI law.

For Taco Bell, so People do that all the time. It's. It's the only fail safe way, is not to drink. If you are going to drink, just please get all the plans in place to begin with. Don't drink and drive. That is the. And I mean that. I'm not just saying that because on the one hand, I'm sort of making light of these DUI cases. On the other, hand, I have seen firsthand people ruining lives as a result of this. So it's my public service announcement. It's serious. I'm not joking about it. I mean, it. Don't drink and drive. But if you do and you do it in Ohio, please let me know. I'll be happy to help. Palmer Legal Defense upstairs at the law firm. If you've got a question about Tiger's case or any other DUI situation, leave it right here in the socials. Send us a comment or a question over@LawyerTalkPodcast.com I'll be happy to get to it.