You are listening to the we need to Talk About Oscar podcast.

And this is our conversation with Rohan Haber, director of the documentary VR Pat, premiering at this year's Tribeca.

I can see Pat in Julia, but to me, Pat is an entirely different, you know, being kind of or like a spirit.

You know, Pat is this very funny, kind of like just silly, very confident, very like, awkward spirit.

I'd love to start with not even what first drew you to pet as a subject for a documentary, because that's pretty well, no pun intended, documented and explored in the doc itself.

But was there a specific moment when you realized this character deserve deeper exploration in the sense of through your lens as a filmmaker and with that publicly?

Yeah, I mean, I think that happened for me, sort of after I, you know, I revisited Pat as an adult.

It kind of really just happened the first time that I rewatched the film, you know, as an adult, because I think that was in 2020, I want to say, and, you know, sort of like the whole trans Tipping point thing with like Laverne Cox and being on the COVID of Time and Transparent, all that happened in 2016.

So I think as a society, we were already kind of having this question of like, what does transness mean in our society now having trans people in the media, you know, all that.

And then the sort of question non binary identity also started coming up and people were really grappling with, like, how to use they.

Them pronouns and what that meant.

And.

And that's kind of just the moment when I rewatched Pat as a film.

And so I was just like, this is so funny to me that unknowingly Julia Sweeney kind of was getting at this core question around kind of being gender non conforming, which is it's not a modern thing to be gender non conforming, but it's the way that we're talking about it at that time was different than before.

You know, like, there have always been trans people, non binary people, gender non conforming people, but we didn't really have a crystallized language for it in the same kind of way that was so societally acknowledged.

And so when I saw Pat at that moment in my life, I was just like, oh my God, this is Julia somehow was prescient of, you know, the future, in a sense.

And also it just really resonated with me in terms of the experiences that I was having.

So I felt if it's resonating with me, then it's probably resonating would resonate with a lot of other people.

And that's why I wanted to kind of go deeper and explore it.

And what was it like finding that balance between the nostalgic elements of the character, the film, the different sketches, and our contemporary perspective on gender and identity since, as you've just mentioned, Julia Sweeney and co did this pretty much unknowingly?

Yeah, no, that's such a good question.

I think that I had to find my own perspective on kind of how I felt about analyzing someone else's art that they had created in a different time.

And because it's really easy for us in this period of time to go back and say, like, this was transphobic.

This was fucked up.

You know, it's so easy to do that sort of with our modern lens.

And at the same time, we really just have to acknowledge that that would be analyzing it out of time.

You know, like, we can't anachronistically kind of like, be analyzing this sketch and remove it from its historical context or from, you know, kind of what was going on during the 90s.

So I was more interested in thinking, like, well, what were the social forces in the 90s that caused this to be something that people were thinking about?

Because comedy is so often, I think comedy of comedy and horror is sort of like cousins.

You know, both of them explore these questions that society is grappling with, and they do it in these really visceral ways.

But one of them is, like, produces kind of like horror in you, and the other produces laughter.

Right?

And so, you know, I was like, what was happening historically in the 90s that made Pat happen, in a sense, and then similarly, like, what is happening in our current times that makes Pat relevant today?

And so I think I was really trying to think about how to look at something in its own time and hold that in one hand, and then the other hand think, and how does this relate to now?

And not just kind of judged it in the now, you know what I mean?

And.

And Julia, like, so much to her credit, was really open to kind of looking back at that with me and having a dialogue and discussing, you know, what was going on for her in the 90s and, you know, and kind of how Pat arose in that way.

So I think, you know, balancing my.

My nostalgia and the nostalgia of the film is, I think, really comes through in the visuals and, like, my voiceover.

But I think balancing the kind of question of, like, some of the more philosophical questions about, like, an artist's responsibility to their work and kind of, what do we do with art as it ages that Was like a different thing that I was also thinking about at the same time.

So I think that that kind of came through more.

That whole storyline came through more just in my relationship with Julia and how we work together and then also, like, working with the.

The comics and their perspective on it.

So, yes, to your point, there are a lot of elements in the film.

Like, it's like a hybrid documentary, but, yeah, they all just.

Yeah, they all kind of came together.

So, yeah, I love to hear about your first interaction with Julia and that relationship's, I don't know, evolution.

Because even though we get to witness it in detail, thanks to the personal element of the process, were there moments maybe that you wanted to keep for yourself and ended up doing so, or on the other hand, moments you debated including, but ultimately ended up putting it in the documentary?

I mean, I think we do have a lot of footage with Julia and me, so, you know, I definitely had to, like, cull the best moments out of that.

Yeah, there were moments, I think, that.

I don't know.

I think with any documentary, I do.

I just try to do right by the.

The person I'm depicting.

So with Julia, I did edit out some things that are.

I'm like, you know, I think she said this, but I think this could be taken out of context or I think, like, it didn't really fit in with the narrative, what she was saying.

Like.

So, yeah, I think that, like, with anything, I just try to edit the character to make them the most themself they can be kind of.

But in terms of moments with me and Julia trying to think if anything crazy happened.

No, like, really just a lot of it is really in there, honestly.

You know, it's.

Because so much of what we filmed was.

I don't know, was just honest and surprising because she was so willing to examine her own life and process that I think we ended up really using kind of so much of that.

They say never meet your heroes, but it seemed like that image was already somewhat complicated for you by coming of age, exploring your identity.

And, yeah, not to generalize it too much, but we tend to identify or even merge actors with their characters, especially at a young age.

Was this the case for you or was it something different?

Yeah, that's such a good question.

I mean, this is something that actually Julia and I talked about, which is that, for me, Julia is not Pat.

Pat is their own person in my brain is, like, out there in the world.

You know, it's like I think of Pat as an actual person and Julia isn't Pat, you know, you meet Julia and you're like, she's, like, so literary and charming and very, like.

I don't know.

Pat is sort of the opposite.

You know, Pat is very, like, obtuse and funny and just kind of unapologetically themselves.

And I feel like I can see Pat in Julia, but to me, Pat is an entirely different, you know, being kind of.

Or like a spirit.

You know, Pat is this very funny, kind of like just silly, very confident, very, like, awkward spirit that's out there, you know?

And I don't think Julia definitely didn't feel like a hero in any sense.

For me, it was more.

But I was.

I think I did have.

I was a little bit intimidated to talk to her at first, mostly because I wanted to let her know that my intention with this documentary was not to, like, rake her across the coals or be like, you did this, and it's bad.

You know, I really wanted to be like, this is a film that we're.

We're really exploring this thing that you created that actually.

That you had no idea of what the cultural reverberations would be, and can we look at that together?

So I think there was just an openness around that.

And I think she loves Pat, like, we both love Pat.

That's the funny thing.

It's like, we both kind of love this character that she created that is not her.

It's incredibly hypothetical, but do you think if you were to meet Julia at the moment, or during that time when she was playing, portraying Pat, do you think your answer would have been maybe different to this question?

Um, I.

I mean, I guess it would depend who I was, you know, if I were, like, my kid self, you know.

Yeah, it's sort of impossible to.

To answer that in the sense that, you know, I'm a different person now and Julia is a different person now, but if we were both back in the 90s, I would be a very young child and she would be fat, you know, and also, Julia back then was really different, you know, she was.

I don't know.

I think, yeah, it would have been interesting to get to know her during that time, because it was sort of.

She was on snl, so it was, like, sort of the height of her comedic career.

And, yeah, I guess I would have been curious to see what her experience was like back then, especially being, you know, a woman on SNL when it was, like, so dominated by men who are now these kind of, like, titans of comedy, like Adam Sandler, Chris Rock, Mike Myers, Chris Farley.

Like, it was such a sort of iconic moment.

So, yeah, I think I would just be curious to ask her questions, but I don't think I'd be like, yeah, I don't think I would have any specifically, like, positive or negative feelings about meeting her.

Yeah, yeah, sure.

Also, other than Julia and yourself, there is this incredible group of beautiful people in the film and there is this, I don't know, an interesting reversal happening in how people connect with Pat, how instead of seeing someone on screen and wanting to be like them, it's more about recognizing parts of yourself in the character.

Yes.

Could you talk about this reverse identification process and how you ended up exploring it in the film?

Yeah.

That's such a thoughtful thing to comment on.

Yeah.

I think Pat is sort of this.

I think for myself and what I came to find, for both the comics and the film and some of the academics that I interviewed, Pat is kind of this weird mirror for people where Pat is kind of reflecting all of your own shit around gender.

Like, to you, in a sense, you're looking at Pat and you're kind of like, oh, you know, like, is this.

I think at the time, you know, Pat, for me was a little bit of a cautionary tale.

Like, oh, God, if you're gender non conforming, your life is going to kind of be hell.

And people are just going to say, like, man or woman, man or woman.

And so a lot of the comics, like, had that feeling of like, that Pat was scary, you know, because they were like, oh, my God, am I Pat?

You know, and at the time, especially in the 90s and the early aughts and stuff, you know, the idea of being trans was really terrifying in a sense, because we didn't really see pathways for trans people to have full lives at, you know, in the sense of like, not that they weren't people were, but it just wasn't shown anywhere, it wasn't discussed anywhere, you know, and.

And like, in the film, as you see, like in the 90s, so much of the sort of trans representation was like, as freaks or on, you know, like talk shows or like, you know, just really sensationalist stuff.

So Pat, in a way, was like this dog whistle, like a trans dog whistle, in a sense of like, you know, this trans character who wasn't explicitly trans.

And your reaction to Pat could tell you a lot about how you felt about your own gender, in a way.

Do you know what I mean?

So I think in that sense, yeah, to your point, it is a kind of identification that people had.

So most, I Think a lot of people went in that camp of feeling like Pat was a cautionary tale and, like, also scared them because it might let them know that they were trans.

And then some people, like J.D.

sampson, for example, who's such a wonderful character in the film, J.D.

you know, her whole thing was like, that she identified with Pat and that Pat felt kind of like this, like, you know, trans masc hero to her in a sense, because Pat really doesn't give a shit about what anyone thinks about them.

You know, everyone's just trying to, like, ask Pat, are you a man or woman?

Are you a man or woman?

And Pat's kind of superpower is being totally oblivious to all that and having a great time.

You know, it's like, if we could all be that in life, we would be doing great, you know, like, we would just not be bothered by anyone else's perceptions of us.

So I think Pat, depending on the person, could either be like a really positive kind of representation or something that was really terrifying to you.

As far as questions go.

There's, of course, the part of it where with Julia's inclusion, you are somewhat interviewing her as well.

Plus, through the writers room, it's like you and your peers are, to a point interviewing with one another, plus yourselves.

So, once again, incredibly hypothetical question, but do you see these different.

Not even timelines, but storylines and lives meeting in pet through pet?

Yeah, I mean, I think they do.

Yeah.

The film definitely brings all of that together.

It's kind of like, right, there are interviews with the comics where I'm interviewing the comics, there's interviews where I interview Julia, and then we're all brought together in this writer's room where we're all kind of trying to construct meaning together about what Pat means.

So there's all these different.

I think, you know, you bring up a really good point, which is that there are all these different ways in which we try to create meaning out of Pat together.

And although the entry point is Pat, what we're really talking about is gender, is how our ages is the historical context of the 90s, and how it mirrors, actually weirdly mirrors our historical context of now in that that both the 90s and now are times of, like, where there have been huge strides forward in terms of gender and sexuality.

And then there's been like a massive right wing backlash.

And that happened in the 90s around gayness and it's happening now around transness.

You know, so I was also trying to make that parallel.

So, you know, we're discussing that we're kind of trying to make meaning out of, like, you know, talking about Pat's life and how reactions to Pat mirror our own reactions, reactions that we've gotten as trans people just kind of moving through the world.

So Pat really is like this weird portal, you know, into talking about, like, gender, comedy, how art ages, you know, all of these sort of issues.

And.

Yeah, and we try to do that, and that happens through, like, interviews through the writers room, through these reimagined Pat sketches that we do together where Julia is on set, and then in one of them, Julia makes a cameo, which was really fun.

So, yeah, we do it in a couple different ways, for sure.

It's as if they are the perfect entry point.

Not the right word, but an excuse to talk about something much bigger than BET themselves.

Yes, yeah, yeah, exactly.

And to wrap up, pet emerged during a specific culture moment in the early 90s.

And then there is you and your peers reflecting on it now.

We are talking in 2025.

It's a slightly generic but a rather big question, and it's, what do you hope viewers or the audience will be able to, or might be able to take away from your film, say, 30, 35 years from now that might help them interpret the character identity and so on?

Yeah, such a good question.

Well, I mean, I'm curious about the kind of conversations that we're going to be having 30 and 35 years from now.

I hope we're all still going to be here on this Earth.

So I don't know, maybe we'll be having these questions on a different planet or, like, psychically or something.

But, yeah, not to mention talking to each other at all.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

If we were on Earth and things were okay, then I would hope that people would look back at this and be interested in sort of, like, this cultural moment and be like, well, how kind of, why was this happening?

Why were trans people being scapegoated during this particular time?

What was it about society that made that so.

And then, like, wow, that's so crazy.

Like, I would love for them to look back and be like, that's insane.

Insane.

Why would anyone do that?

You know, because maybe at that point, we'll be post gender.

You know, I mean, that would be great.

Or maybe it's not even about gender.

It's about, like, transhumanism, and we're like, well, how do we.

What does it mean to be, like, incorporate tech into our body so much that, like, we're actually transhumanist and gender doesn't actually matter?

You know, I mean, ultimately, I would love people to have a little bit of compassion for the times that other people lived in.

You know, like, we can look back 30, 50, 100 years and go, wow, that was so brutal or archaic or insane the way that people were doing things or thinking about things.

But I think, hopefully, and especially for art that was created, to be able to look back and say, okay, this was the cultural context, and not to excuse everything by any means, but to be able to really have a conversation about it, I think is the main thing that I want people to be able to do.

So maybe in 30 years, people will be having a conversation about we are patient in the way that, you know, I'm looking back on Pat.

It's Pat, you know, that was.

Happened 30 years ago and having this conversation.

So maybe it's just a continuing conversation.

You know, maybe that's.

That is what.

What happens, that it just sparks dialogue, you know.

But still, I must say, for all this to happen, we'll need filmmakers and people like yourself to bring these kind of topics in a conversation through characters and stories like bats and the people around them.

Well, Rohan, thank you so, so much for your time and for the film itself.

I must say, I absolutely loved it.

Oh, thank you so much, Arian.

Yeah, thank you for your incredibly intelligent questions and.

Yeah, thank you, thank you.

That means a lot.