Bayan on Demand offers a growing library of courses taught by highly regarded scholars and practitioners, designed for meted board members, school administrators, imams, chaplains, youth workers, parents, and more with classes on Islamic theology, adolescent development, non-profit management, and the history of Islam in America and more. Bayan on Demand provides accessible knowledge for just $10 a month. Join our growing community of learners today and support the work of Bayan Islamic Graduate School and the Muhammad Ali Scholarship. Go to baan online.org. That's B-A-Y-A-N online.org to get more information. May the peace that only God can give be upon you. Welcome to the American Muslim Podcast presented by Bayan on Demand. I'm your host, Imam Tariq El-Amin, and I'm honored to bring you a new conversation each week with the leader who is serving their community in meaningful ways. Each guest offers a unique perspective on what it means to shape and represent the Muslim American presence both publicly and privately. Today I am pleased to welcome Usad Abdulah Muhammad Priest, the third to the podcast. He is a theologian, community leader Imam at Grinnell College, senior instructor at Tayba Foundation, and a doctor of ministry student at Catholic Theological Union, where he focuses on practical theology, leadership and ethics. Without further delay, let's welcome our guest, As Salaamu Alaikum Ustadh

how you doing Imam?

Alhamdulillah, I'm doing well, and I appreciate you taking the time out to have this conversation.

Thank you for having me.

Oh, it's our pleasure, Seth. So we always invite our guests to share their stories with as much openness and vulnerability as they're comfortable with, knowing that it can be a benefit to our listeners. We want to understand the work you do, but more importantly, who you are. Was there a pivotal moment, an experience, a mentor, something you read that helped shape you or set you on the path that you're on today?

that's a very interesting question because, it's been a lot of people and a lot of influences. In my life in terms of where I'm at right now. Although at the time they were influencing me or attempting to, I wasn't listening to them. But as I sat back and I reflected on my life journey and, just some of the morals and things that I hold to today, I recognized that there were a lot of people that came along that path that helped to do that. and just to make sure that we keep his name and people's ears and his memory alive so we could do something to assist him. Even after Jamil out of me. He was a good friend of my father's when he first moved to Atlanta back in the seventies. My father became Muslim with him. my father had his own journey in life. we primarily are a family of civil rights activists, Pan-Africanist and black nationalists, and some kind of mixture of all of that together. that we come from, that's what I am, I always tell people I'm a child of the movement, but there was one particular time when, I was doing a lot of different things that weren't right and my father would get exasperated with me. So I remember one time he took me to go see the Imam and it was on Saturday af Saturday morning rather. So we sitting now, 'cause if you knew Imam Jamil's community, it was a park across the street and he had a shop right there on the corner he sold, had a laundromat, and then he had a little store where he was the little sell stuff out of. So we sitting in the store and Imam told me that morning, he's one day you're gonna have to make a choice. You're gonna have to make a choice if you're going to do what's right or you're going to do what's not going to help you and help your people. Fast forward to now. And I think about that. I'm, I made the choice that I wanted to be able to do something to help my people. And I probably, although at the time when he said it and I didn't remember what he had said to me till years later, somebody else had asked me a question about him. And that's something that came to my mind that, that stuck with me. In addition to all the other people, family members, friends and associates I've met over the years. Like I said, I have a very cosmopolitan, story to tell, although it would seem as if things were just very one sided with me, it wasn't, I come, like I said, my family background, but in addition to that, I'm selling drugs 'cause I was 12 years old until I went to prison at 32 for my last time and became Muslim. This year will be 21 years I've been Muslim. So it's just it's a, it is a very, I don't want to take off all your time. It's a very long and complex story.

Hey, this is your time.

Yeah, Insha'Allah we'll get to

it's your time.

Get to bring some of that out. But yet the Imam was, in terms of, particularly in terms of like right now his health, he's struggling with his health. He has stage four cancer, some other things. And it's just, it's very sad what they've done to him. They know he wasn't the one that killed those police officers. they knew it at the time when it happened that he was the one that killed the police officers. actually I was in Atlanta at the time. I was still in the streets when that happened then. And actually I was around the corner making the sale. I had just left from making the sale around the corner from where he was at and. All of that went down. I, we saw the police calls, we didn't hear the gunshot, but we knew something was going on around there. And we, but it's, Allahul Musta‘ān Insha'Allah allah will free him and give him some relief and grant him shifa

ameen his

illness that's affecting him, and let him go home to his family and community. insha'Allah,

Ameen, many people embrace Islam, right? Many people take the shahadah, but not everyone goes on to pursue knowledge or become a teacher. Right. You did. Can you reflect on what that journey was like for you? What exactly shaped that path for you?

Well, my mother's an English teacher. That was her original. She went to school for English, and she was an English teacher for a number of years. Did a lot of other things. She was in the Social Rights Social Justice civil rights, realm, Alhamdulillah being that my mother was an English teacher, I've was reading since three, four years old. I tell people that and they get surprised. It's no, I've been reading for a long time and this is 'cause this is something that she, cultivated in me and my siblings over the years. And, 'cause like when we were little, you couldn't ask definitions. Say, what's this word? How you spell this word? What's, what this word mean? Look it up. Use phonetics and you have to sit there, that'd be part of your lesson. You have to get it right. 1970s moms get it right. Or I'm gonna talk to you a little for a little while and we gonna do this until you get it right. But it helped, because this brought me to the point where I'm at today. 'cause even when I was running the streets. Everybody else chasing cars. I sit on the porch, I'll be reading the newspaper. I'm not getting up chased behind no cars. They come to me. I've always been different like that. I love reading. I love learning about different things. even something I thought about the other day in elementary school, some of my friends would call me Encyclopedia Brown, at the time that for them, that was like an insult. But, Alhamdulillah, Allah used that as as we know now, that was a means of actually honoring us and giving us a chance to be, the type of people. Allah want us to be educated and intelligent. So that by itself was something that helped to drive me. And then, as I came after I became Muslim, one of the challenges I was facing was the fact that in the institution I was in among others, there were no. Outside resources available to us. So we had someone who would come into the federal prison. I was at Estel for a couple of years, but then, some of the, I guess you could say attitudinally, divergent brothers among our salafi brethren ran the Imam off even though he was a salafi Imam. Iam. So go figure that part out. After two years of me being there, we went eight ramadan's with no outside, nothing. I went on a letter writing campaign in 2012 and I wrote some of anyone and everywhere I can get an address to asking for support and nobody responded. I wrote a letter to someone, I wrote a letter to Sheikh Hamza Yusuf, if he was the only person who responded, but he responded by giving my letter to table Foundation. In the letter I had asked for four things. I had asked for a list of books that he suggested I should have, just as reference in being able to personal edification a curriculum to study for formal study, advice on, just general day-to-day life as a Muslim and advice on how to study the books that I asked about that he gave me. But his response was he connected me to Tayba Foundation, and that was in February, 2013 when I got the letter from them about the program, because I wrote back probably like summer 2012. So February, 2013, I was the only response I got back. I probably 40 or 50 letters and, From that point there, I've always wanted to do something to work within the community because like nonprofits, community development, these types of things was something that was always very strong within my family. If you remember, when they were started doing the mail bombings back in the eighties when the first people that was killed with the mail bombers was Robbie Robinson, attorney from Savannah, Georgia, and my granddaddy was first cousins, so that's the family. I, that's the background I come from. that's my roots. just even though some of us chose to do what we wanted to do, that we come outta that generation. But at the same time, we had these people around us. We had these influences and these types of figures who were able to give us that focus that we needed in terms of, I wouldn't say as much say focus, because we weren't focused at that, at least that model that we could refer back to when it was time for us to get ourselves together. And with my mother being a teacher doing work within the community, I've always found pleasure in helping other people. Even like when I was inside, like my last five years, we ran a men's process group through the psychology department called Come On People, and we were using the book by Dr. Bill Cosby and Dr. Alvin Poissant and it was very successful and just in terms of just, it was just really more natural for me to be engaging with people. Talking, helping, mentoring, and teaching a little bit of law allowed me to learn, giving reference to people. we have people think one way, okay look, here's some more books you need to read, expand your mindand, these types of things because you know this, giving people that option to be able to do something different from what they were doing. For me that was always a driving factor, and particularly as after I became Muslim, I. I started understanding what it means to be a Harden servant in engaging in service. That's became, that became my predominant focus throughout life. So anything I'm dealing with, it has to be in a means of giving service to people, providing something back to the community, and being able to help people transition from that. I like to think of myself as a facilitator. I wanna facilitate you being able to get yourself to wherever you feel you need to be so you could be successful and Lord this messenger, so the Lord can be pleased with you on the daily. Okay.

You mentioned being a reader from a very young age, right? Extremely young age, and coming from an environment that encouraged curiosity, not just asking questions, but seeking answers. When you look back, what shifted between the 12-year-old version of you and the version of you who embraced Islam? how did your approach to truth and action evolve? Right? What came together for you?

Well, the thing that put me into that place, like I said, my father, he went through his phase. He started off with Jamil. he became rastafarian after that, for a number of years, and towards the end of his life, he reaffirmed that he was Muslim. he reminded me, Hey, don't let the play at my body. You bury me as a Muslim. So when he passed, I watched his body. I led his janazah there was something I was able to do for him. And, but the means that took me there and watching, growing up with my father. 'cause when I went to go stay with him in Atlanta in 84, I couldn't do anything else in South Carolina where my mother was a mother from a place called Georgetown, South Carolina. Her and my father met when she went to Savannah to go to Savannah State. But I couldn't go to no more schools in South Carolina. I done got put out all the schools. It was like, you can't stay. So I had to go to Atlanta. So when I got to Atlanta, like I said, west End Atlanta, 1984, you got trying to black red Donna Hebrews, like you got Yahweh, but Yahweh's people, you got some of any and everything you has ever come through the black community in terms of religious or the conscious movement. It was all right there in Western Atlanta in 1984. And that was the mil I was put into. And then, my father being a Rasta at the time and the people that he was around, it was like they was doing their thing. it was Irv reggae music and life and, my father again, we just, we just having an honest conversation. It's not being, Dismissive of who he was or any of those things. I don't want people to get the wrong understanding this just the life that I came from. But, my father was a very prominent figure amongst the Rasta community and, we were one of the only people that we had all the weed. So that was my introduction to the game. I grew up around his Jamaican friends, guys would be importing products into the country, shipping products out, doing stuff. That's what I came up around. that's what I know. I remember my father and them sitting down having conversations about, okay, this's what we going to do for the community? And it's any means necessary, and the means that we had was do this and get money. And, as with all, bad objectives, with good intentions, everything gets corrupted. from 12 years old, I. It's yeah, we doing this to people, the nation, this. But as I got older and things started happening and just like those things became less and less relevant to the point where you just don't even talk about it no more. Now I'm gonna say something that some people probably not gonna appreciate, but it's facts. And I have to say it because this is part of our history. And I think for a lot of us, particularly within African American community, Muslim conscious community, however you wanna say it, we really have to come to grips with some of the decisions that our forefathers made. and one of them was, it was a conference they had in Philly back in, I can't never remember the year, 'cause my godmother told us about it. She's passed now. but she, between 72 and 74, it was a conference that they had Black Nationals conference and they made the decision to run the heroin dealers out the community. Sell cocaine. And when she told us about that, they made a decision at that conference in Philadelphia to run all the heroin dealers outta the community and deal with cocaine. And if you think back to the back exploitation era and all of the Black Mafia stuff, this was that time when that happened that was the result of that decision that they made. I had godparents and some other friends and associates who were part of these discussions at the time. I'm like, I'm, I got it from them secondhand, but it's I'm giving you firsthand information. 'cause I got it from the people who was in the room. So it was like when they did that, me as a youth, that really destroyed my understanding and my respect for the movement and all of that stuff that we had did all those years, I felt very disillusioned. So it was just like, man, I don't wanna hear none of that. It's, do or die. Until the casket drop. It was just, I was all in after that, and that was where that real shift came. a lot of things just like I said, you start off with good intentions even though your objectives are bad, but it just, things just get outta control from that way. And that's part of the Kaydu ash-Shayṭān. that's part of the shaytan's plan that trick you and deceive you and take you into all of these dark and dangerous paths that he take us down. So that's the short of the long answer.

Not at all. I appreciate that. As I listen to you, I'm thinking about leadership, especially how at 12 years old we respond to it without fully understanding how our environments shape us. So now for you, as someone who creates and guides environments, are there lessons from your own journey that influence how you lead and try to cultivate healthy spaces today?

Yeah, that's a good question. I think everything from my previous experience has really helped me. It's been, for me it's very, it has been, and it still is at times very, unsettling how Allah has allowed for me to be able to have an influence on people and, places in a space that I inhabit from time to time. A law has allowed for me to be very impactful in that space, and it took me a long time to really deal with that. my mother's probably one of the first people that really told me, it's like, Hey, you got to stop fighting. It made you, God made you a leader. Just got to go with it. And that's one of the reasons I followed along with the leadership track as I've been studying because. I recognize that at times God has allowed me to have influence. But then that's also come from the fact that even like when I was out doing what I was doing, I was always the one that reminded dudes in the community is Hey man, we just can't be out here doing this. We got to, we gotta clean up these people yard. We gotta make sure these old ladies, these people got the bills is paid, they got food in the house. Just can't be just out here like that. You gotta keep things, It was a perverted type of morality, but it was a moral system that I have nonetheless, probably primarily because, like I said, from my previous experience with other people that in the community, from nation building sessions and all that type of stuff, it's look man, we supposed to be here doing something for the community. We're not just supposed to be here just getting money, tearing things up and just going about our business. We're supposed to be trying to build up the community and the people and then engaging with other people. I. Having had the experiences that I've had over the years, knowing that there are a lot of different traps and turns that we get caught up into. I try to always make sure that I'm with the young people that I deal with. I'm always trying to remind 'em. It's look man, I did that. I done been through that. the names may change. The drug might be a little different than it was before, but I done did all that. Man, I can run the whole game down to you from A to Z. I could hear a conversation and I could tell you exactly how everything gonna turn out. 'cause I, I done seen all that before, And using that as a means of helping people and pushing them forward. I find that to be very important. And it just, as one of the things that Muslims, we know the reminder we're supposed to be people of Vicar, sometimes people just think that just means making touchy and all these things lay all that. Not really that's part of it. But it's also the fact that we're supposed to be reminding and encouraging each other constantly about how we're supposed to be going about this life and what we need to be doing. like nowadays it is very difficult to give people advice or to remind a person like, Hey man, you tripping. What are you doing? like even with some young people and you see these things on social media, how people just disrespect their parents and other stuff like that. we didn't tolerate just man, look, you and they talk to your mama like that. You need to go in there and straighten that up. But when we get outside, we gonna deal with you Now. You better go in there and probably you don't talk to your mama like that. What's wrong with you, man? that's how, that's what we did and we were serious about that. It helped people along the way. 'cause you come back and people now it's Hey man, I appreciate that, da. But just those influences, it's it be, be hard for most people to understand. How can a person who say they ran the streets, carry guns, sold drugs, and all these things can find lessons that can, help in a positive way for leadership. But all of that factored into it. And the reality of it was like, like that slogan, everybody like to say, there's no man left behind. You're struggling. You need help. I can't walk away from a person that I see that needs help. Even if I sit there and I'd be like, Hey man, you're tripping. Now I might have to give you the third degree, but I'm gonna help you fix the problem. I just can't walk away from you like that. And that's probably one of my bigger, I won't say faults, but one of my harder lessons to learn. Sometimes you just got to say, I can't do it. But you know, I don't know how to do that. Because like I said, I know where I came from and I know mentally, spiritually, sometimes physically, emotionally, all that, I know how that affects people. 'cause I done been through all those stages. I done had money, lost money. I'd have been shot. I done shot at people, I done been homeless, I done been on drugs. I did everything that you could think about. I didn't mess with no old people. I didn't mess with no children and I ain't rape nobody, and I wasn't homosexual, but other than that, I don't think you could come up with anything that was done in the streets that I didn't do. I did all of it and I was happy about it, Sickness, but that's the way it was. But now that we come to where we at now, it's I know what that feels like. I know what it tastes like. I know how that affects people. It, I can't walk away from somebody like that. So that's, I think that's part of the biggest factor of leadership in terms of that there just being that source of support and dependence for people, because I think that's one thing, most people lose in the reality of what leadership is. Most people just think that I'm in charge. I tell you what to do, and I'm going to take this group or this organization to these fantastic places and everybody has to listen to me. It's not like that. Even if we looked at life, yes, he got, while he's from the Lost Valley, he received revelation and he was the leader, but at the same time, he would get down in the ditch and he would dig. When the people were hungry and there was no food, he was the hungriest one out of all of them. 'cause he made sure that whatever he got, he gave away to the people. So the lady was selling, so nobody was left without, and he, him and his family, they got theirs last if anything was left over, And that for me, that's the epitome of leadership, serving the people. That's why I went go back to being a Khadim engaging in Khidmah. that's it. It's nothing else.

You mentioned something really powerful, how some might wonder how someone with your journey ends up as an imam, as a teacher. While others would say, who better to lead than someone who deeply understands the path of what it means not to be on it? I think that we do ourselves a disservice by disconnecting from our past as if we only began with Shahadah. given your roles now as Imam at Grinnell and senior instructor. With Tayba, do you see a connection between those experiences and how you serve in both spaces today?

Yeah, absolutely. in terms of, like with Tayba Foundation, since my connection with them in 2013, Tayba has been a tremendous support to me in a number of different ways. And the ability to actually quantify it qualify it, whichever way is it's very difficult to try to do that because although I've had family education experiences prior to coming to come in the Tayba was a facilitator of putting me in the place where I was able to engage with a much larger audience of people and they supported me to move the more and higher, levels of competence. It's even like in terms of work, if I didn't have this job at Tayba, I don't know what I would be doing. I have the job at Grinnell's part-time. It's beautiful work working with those young people. As with any place where you're going to be of service and it's needed, they do need people like myself to be there to help them. But, yeah, a lot of what I've done at Tayba had a direct effect on me being able to get to work at Grinnell, because the work experience that I've been able to gain through them, I've developed curriculum, written textbook, I've written chapters to textbooks, we've edited, developed tests. it's just, you could just keep going on and on table. It's allowed me to actually fully realize my potential in terms of being able to engage as a servant and a leader. To the Muslims people in general and being able to have an organization behind me that actually can tell people, yes, this person is competent. We believe in the ability that he has and you should support him and give him this job or give him this opportunity to come speak to your community, talk to your children, whatever. All of that is direct result of me being a part of Tayba Foundation and what they have been able to help me do over the years. Can't take away from it. Absolutely not.

So as a part of your work with Table Foundation, you've written curriculum, you've developed tests. Yes. Has that work been a natural response to your own pursuit of education? you've spent over 12 years studying classical Islamic text. Can you talk a bit about how these things are connected?

Well. Like you said, I started with Tayba 2013, so I had about 18 months left when I got with them. I got out in July of, 2014. I was at the door of 11 years by the time I had completed, doing the sentence I had. But, I came home first couple years. I'm just working, trying to get things together, and in 2016, Sheikh Rami asked me if I wanted to accompany them to Isna was held there in Chicago at the McCormick that year. And, okay, help do some outreach, get out and meet some of the Muslims. And I had a habit when I was inside, I used to work at the law library and other places. I used to keep books. I used to have two net bags, books, notebooks, stuff like that. 'cause I was, reading Brothers in on the Yard or wherever they wanted. they coming up with discussions about things. I had reference books 'cause like I read, so I had a lot of books. I would send home, ask Family and Friends to send me books and stuff like that. So when brothers would need information, they would come to me for references. Like they would read stuff from Islam or any other thing. So I had the information that they need most often, insha'Allah and that's been a habit I've had since then. I've always kept me a bag full of books. So when I came to, I had a bag full of books and we were at breakfast one morning. We were having a conversation about something and she was talking about it and the brother had asked him something. It was another young brother. Abdul Kabir came with him. Came with us to do some outreach and other Tayba students. had not not too long came home and, he was asking some questions and sheikh was talking to him about it. I was like, well, yeah, the hadith was right here. I pull out the commentary. This, we was, I had stuff in the bag, I had books in the bag, and I was able, and it wasn't so much, trying to show off anything that, that's just me. Like when y'all, we were in class in Chicago back in October, had a bag full of books, just, they can't help it. when I came back from Chicago, Sheikh Rami called me and was like, Hey man, you wanna grade some papers? It's okay, yeah. I need the money. Absolutely. And grade some papers. I'm doing lot, as time just goes on, it's just more and more things, okay, help us with this. Help us with this, help us with this, help us with this. And it just, things just kept, Adding up and then, they labeled me senior instructor and by Allah's fadl (favor) here I am. But, you asking how that, works and influencing my engagement with people, it, again, it's just for me it's it's, the zakat of knowledge. There's zakat of ilm (knowledge) all gives you something, you have to give it back. You just can't sit down and hold it to yourself. You have to share it. And for me, internally, I'm disturbed if I'm not doing more. As part of, I guess maybe some of my guilt of my process of redemption from what I've done over the years, it's like, not so much idleness, but just the fact that I'm not adding to. What I'm doing or I'm not adding to my ability to understand certain things. I'm not, developing myself more than I always feel like I'm not doing enough. my wife and my mother, they get on me a lot about this 'cause they're like, man, you not young. You're gonna kill yourself. You need to slow down. And it's I can't, I don't know how to do it. I know it's a problem 'cause I burn myself out sometimes. I get to the point sometimes it's like I can't even read. 'cause it's like I'm reading, but it's not sitting there. And then I, unfortunately, my wife and children ain't gone right now. They're not here with me. And I sit in this apartment by myself and I like to say I eat my brain because I don't have nobody to talk to. So it's just as if you see me right now, there's books. you can see this. Here's books here. Books there books. There's. Just me and the books. I have to find some way to engage with people and give something back all the time. that's just me. I can't help it. And all of those things that I've gained from working with Tayba, benefiting from that. I think all of that's part of, because, like they say, the cup gets full so the cup is full, but it's always something leaking out and it always has to be filled again. So it just it's like a constant system that's going on. I think that's the best way to describe it. Did that answer your question? I talked a lot.

yeah, it did. It did.

Okay.

It actually made me think of the, my cup runneth over metaphor

Uhhuh,

it keeps feeling even as it's being poured out. that to me is part of the blessing. Seeing knowledge, not just is something to hold onto, but something you are meant to give.

Right, right. alhamdulillah, but I will say this in terms of a personal thing, it's like, 'cause the challenge is still there for me in terms of what I just talked about, but also in the fact that I've been studying for years and on a personal level, I have deficiencies that I see in myself. It could or could not be deficiencies. Like I say, I may just be too hard on myself from times, but I see things within myself at times and it makes me very uncomfortable how people receive me. And I think part of that may go back to that redemption factor because I'm very big on wanting to seek redemption. 'cause I was not a very pleasant person before I became Muslim. I loved my family, I loved my friends, whatever. But I was a very selfish and unpleasant person. If I wanted to be. And the streets have made me very callous. I come from a very violent and disruptive background at times. That was through personal choice and seeking those types of things out. And, I'm grateful because, you think about that stuff and you're just like, I'm the, all laws has allowed me, first of all, I'm not dead. I'm from Generation X. I was, I'm the endangered species, super predator, all of that stuff. Joe Biden and Hillary Clinton, them talked about, that was me, 1971 baby. And it is just you can just go on and on. I'm from all of that. It's just and then when I look at everything that Allah has brought me out of, and it's just and that's another thing that pushes me with that. 'cause it's I. I feel I'm never doing enough because I've done so many terrible things to myself and other people. So just like I'm never doing enough. So it is really, it's difficult to say the least, but it's a beautiful experience nonetheless. So we give thanks to a law for that.

But do you think you would have that same drive, that same intention, if not for those experiences,

if it wasn't for this life? I've, my experiences, I don't really believe so, no, because, you have to think about it, understand it this way. like I said, I started off young and, I am engaging with the different people I met over the years. Particularly like when my youth, in that time I was with my father in new formative years. 'cause he would fight with me tooth and nail about being out in the streets. He would always try to shortstop everything. It was like, man, you can't be doing that. You doing this, you gotta leave me alone, man. me and him, we was constantly butting heads about stuff, but that's pops. I love him. we not going there, but you know, we gonna have our issues. you can't be doing this, man, you gotta leave me alone now. but at the same time, it's just like one of his partners. I'm not gonna use people names, anything that's one of his partners used to bring in weed. So we was like 13, 14. he, young kids rosters, they bagging up. So he'd be like, Hey man, y'all help us bag this up. And the thing was, as you bagging up, you take what you want. Because once everything in the bag, you can't ask for nothing. So if you end up taking three, four pounds for yourself, that's fine. That's yours. this be 13, 14. So we might do that. He might give 1,006, $700, might be five or six of 'em in the house. And all of 'em doing the same thing. 13, 14 years old, I got me three. I just wanna have bagged up three, four pounds. they give us, we might have about four, $5,000 from messing with them by then, and then we go out and do our thing. So it was just like mentally, I was in a lot of different places, even at my age. A lot of young kids, even back then, especially back then just didn't know about, they didn't know about none of that stuff, And I'm in places with grown folks and they used to always like me 'cause I know how to be quiet. I kept my mouth shut and I got busy. if something went down, I wasn't hiding and crying, I'm getting busy just like the rest of 'em. They used to like me. 'cause I, it was like, I ette that boy, that rough said Don right there, boy. So that's how they dealt with me and that was how I was raised up in the game. I never knew how to be anything less than, dominant within whatever space I was in. Whether I was up or down, good or bad. Right or wrong. I didn't know how to do anything less. it was never outta no sense of arrogance because I never liked arrogance. I never like hypocrisy, So arrogance was a quick way to get that pistol put on you, around me. You come around me with all that showing off. you gonna have your bad day around me. You come off trying to play games and high side and all that. Okay, we gonna show this one here, what it's about. but this, that's just like you were asking 'cause it's this so engaging with people now. Again, going back to your question, it's like I don't know how to do anything else. Some people would be like, well you should. Why don't you do this or that? It's what you mean? It's like I don't know how to be unloyal to a person. I don't know how to go somewhere and my people not good. I know you ain't got what you need and you with me and I don't make sure that you good. I ain't talking about that. You just there and I'm taking care of you that you good. You see what I'm saying? That translates right back into the Muslim, you and I saying belief until you love for your brother what you love for yourself. I don't know how to look at you and be like, nah, I ain't rocking with bro. What you mean? It's a Muslim? Okay. Yeah, you might. Have issue. We may not get along to the best way, but believe you me, if you say, Hey, A, I need some help, it's no question what's, if I got the ability to do it, tell me what it is that you need from me. If I can't do it, I'm going to help you find a way to get it done. You see what I'm saying? I don't know how to do anything else.

Usad, you touched on something very important and it brings to mind the saying, paraphrasing the best of you before Islam are the best of you after Islam. That's not about being mistake free, but it's about recognizing that even in our missteps, qualities like loyalty, empathy, and concern, these were always present and Islam affirms these. And when I asked you about drive, you said if it weren't for those experiences. That really resonates because Allah doesn't miss anything. Right? Sometimes it's those very experiences, even the difficult ones that shape our drive to serve, to teach, and to care for others in ways that knowledge alone can't. And I believe that kind of rootedness, especially among indigenous African American Muslims, is unique.

Right?

So I just wanna say be merciful to yourself Ustadh.

Yeah. Like that. That's a good point that you raised. Particularly like for us as African Americans in this country, like for me, coming from a Pan Africanist back nationalist background, I love my people. I love my people, but at the same time as a Muslim, I. Even as I was transitioning into actually finally accepting Islam. 'cause at the time, like I said, I grew up around the Imam, I grew up around Muslims. we ran the streets together, we did all that. And I've never denied the truth of Islam. I never denied la ilah illallah Muhammadan rasulullah but like I shared with you, I can't stand hypocrisy. I'm in the streets. I'm a gangster. This is 100000% me. I'm not doing, I'm not going to, church or the maji and thing. I can't do that. I hate hypocrisy. I hate it, and I knew I'm not gonna pray five times a day. I like smoking weed. I used to going to strip club. I used to like to drink. I used to like how it felt when you walk in the building and you, everybody's stopping to look at you. I used to like shooting my gun. I used to like all of those things that went along with that life. I might pray once or twice a day. I might pray five times a day, sometimes according to what my week was going like. But I knew I was not going to do everything that I was supposed to do as a Muslim. And my mother asked me one time, she was like, when you gonna get married and settle down? I was like, when I can't raise no more hell than I'm going to get married and settle down. I said, until then, this what it is. I'm not doing it well, she look at me, shake her head. But the thing was, with all of that going on, like you say, it is like even take, let's take it back further. Let's go back to our ancestors. We came here despite all of the conservative and liberal estimates that they give of. 20, 30%. West Africa was a Muslim polity. We were Malachy and in West Africa have always been up until more recent times, maybe the last 50, 60 years when they had all of the fitna that came up with the divergent understandings of the religion the last few years. Right. But Malaki ashari and then when you look at it, you look at the history and all of the programs that they were doing, the things that they were doing to suppress us from learning, speaking our languages, doing this, that, and the third, they were stopping people from praying and reciting cord on, they were stopping brothers from praying and reciting cord down. We know about the uprisings in the ikas that were being passed around in the Caribbean and in the early years of the colonial period here in America before all of that. So we know all of this history. So really a lot of this is just really us. It's like we're going through the crucible. Islam has much more meaning for us as people who have converted to the dean, than some people who have been born into it because this was something that was stolen from us. And the reality of reconnected with it, even if we don't know this was the original heritage that we come from the reconnection with that makes it even more intense for those of us who fall back into, the embrace of Islam. And as a result of that, for me, it's like the value and the lessons that our lived experiences can give to people who are struggling because this is a, this is the dean of struggle. This is the dean that takes a person that's at their lowest point, and Allah uses that to elevate them. It's a panel Allen, it's I've been five percenter. I done dibbled and dabbled in some of everything that done came through the pipeline over the last 40 years, And it's like nothing is like this Dean, man, if we really just take the time to just put aside all of the attachments that our families may have, the Christianity, which was something that was given to us. 'cause even if we go back to that, Christianity was not in West Africa. They could tell you whatever they want to tell you. When Portuguese and all of them came in the 14 hundreds, early 15 hundreds and started spreading around in it, Christianity was not in West Africa, period. I don't care what they tell you. It was nothing but Muslims or traditional religions and Muslims are the ones in the majority of those places that had the power. This is a return of, I guess you could say, I don't wanna say the prodigal son. That's not a good reference. This is like the return of that child. Who was kidnapped or stolen from their parents. And then, we, they had these searches for them. And then, you see the stuff on the news. Somebody go in, it's like these off chances that you just run into somebody or a child was put up for adoption, abandoned and put up for adoption, and then they find a family again. And this is the unfortunate experience where, you know, not dragging on nobody, where brother have a child and don't know about the child. And then 20, 30 years later they come and the child comes, Hey, what happen? I didn't know. And it's like that connection that, that manifests out of that reality of finding what was taken from you, and being able to articulate that, like you say, the best of you prior to this Islam, or the best of you in this Islam, or the best of you, I can't remember how the tradition go, but the rasulllah ﷺ he ended that as that. when you acquire knowledge of the religion, that was the ending of it. So for me, even again, that was encouragement, going back to redemption. Yeah. That, again, it's all about redemption for me. How do I redeem my face with my family, my community, all of the harms and all of the things that I did over these years. And that African American experience is true because, I'm a resident of Ghana when I'm not here, my family is in Ghana. I have my own in Ghana. And it's again, we are not trying to drag nobody down. It's just the reality. Because this is a lot of what's been done in a systematic fashion. Although I have my own issues with some of the terminology and the methodology that people use in terms of dealing with racism nowadays. 'cause there's no black and white, all those are actual constructs. Yes, we can agree to that. Some of the other stuff we don't, I don't want to get in that. I went on a tangent, so I know I probably done said some of everything else.

no. It's all valuable. yeah. Much appreciated. I cannot help but reflect on how our society past and present often leans into shame. This isn't anything new. People find comfort or a false sense of superiority in highlighting someone else's visible mistakes while hiding their own. But in the Quran, we hear the voice of those who say, indeed I have wronged my own soul.

Right? Right.

That admission doesn't necessarily have anything to do with what other people see. It's about standing before Allah with awareness of our shortcomings. Redemption, as you have been describing, isn't just for the publicly known misstep. It's for anyone who sincerely recognizes their need to repair. To return. And that is deeply internal. It's something that we lose when we only focus on others' faults. So with that in mind, usta and knowing how many brothers and sisters are on similar journeys, maybe they've accepted Islam but haven't yet immersed themselves in learning or growing in their faith, what advice would you offer to help them take that next step?

a couple things. whether you're new or been Muslim for a while and things just not going your way like you wanted to. One of the main things I always tell people is, do not ever abandon your prayer. If you have prayers that need to be made up, yes, it's going to be difficult to get that done, but there's a system that can work. make your prayers, make up whatever's old, and make your prayers on time. That's probably the. The most crucial thing in the world that we can tell people in terms of just being able to find grounding with the dean. The second thing would be develop a relationship with the, unfortunately, I, when I stand in Ghana, you'll see people, they'll recycle Koran, but they don't know what to say. Read the Koran, find a way if you have to find a translation for yourself or whatever. Read the Koran with understanding so you can understand what a lost upon what the al is saying to you. Yes, translations are not always the best, we know that. But the point is you have to read the Quran. I always tell like people, when I give people shout or students, if they have difficulties, like even if you just read three to five ayat a day, 10 ayat a day. You don't have to read the Quran. It's good if you can read the Quran in a month or week or whatever. even like when people struggle to read the Quran during Ramadan, it's like the important things that you read. Take some iops and read every day. Have a, if you recite, have a recitation that you engage with every day. Even if you don't pick up the physical must-haves the physical copy of the Koran every day, you still have some type of connection to the Koran where you're engaging with it on a regular basis. It's very important, like I said, even if it's just three, is if you only know, Qul huwa Allahu Ahad, surah al-falaq and surah an-Nas recite those constantly all the time throughout the day, outside of the prayer. It doesn't have to be this in the prayer, but do it constantly so you can develop a relationship with the Quran. Allah will open up things for you outside of that. And the third is also salat ala nabi, sending prayers and blessings upon the the prophet. ﷺ We have a very peculiar and strange thing that people have been saying in the last few years since I've been hearing it as a Muslim. I know they've been saying it much longer than that. Some people is that you can give too much praise to the prophet. How in the world could you ever give too much praise to somebody who, if you don't acknowledge him and give him his due, a loss of does not even accept anything from you? You can't even call yourself a Muslim. You can say, la ilaha illa'llah. Okay, but that doesn't make you Muslim. You have to say, you cannot leave him out. If you say, I'm going to pray this way, and it's totally different from the way that told us to pray, Allah will not accept it from you. Oh, but no, he would not accept it because you know of him and you rejected him. You have to make salat ala nabi all the time like you're talking about. That's one of the things they say in some of the books, that if you don't have a Rabi or a teacher to guide you on the path, then making Sala a Nabi, some will say 500 times, some say a thousand times a day at minimum, is the way that a law will facilitate an opening for you to be able to get to that next stage in your development that you want. But the point is nonetheless, always make time to give present and peace upon the profit solo lawyer was selling. Because even Allah has told us Angels, he commands us in the Quran to do it. How you gonna sit there and tell somebody, Hey man, you're doing that too much. Are you crazy? What's wrong with you? You can't do it too much. It's never enough. It's never enough. I don't want to get into, I can go off on a tangent with that. you have to love the prophet. that's the whole point of what I'm saying. There has to be a love of the prophet. There has to be a love of Islam. Yes, prayer is, can be tedious if you're going through the day and you're working and things are moving and grooving and everything happening. But guess what? Yes. If you in the airport and they looking at you and you got to pray, but guess what? You got to pray anyway. It's not gonna stop nothing. And the law's not gonna say, okay, you excused that you didn't pray because you didn't want people looking at you. That's not gonna be a valid excuse on Yama Hammer, pray. Quran and never stop giving s and honoring him and uplifting him, whether it's to speech actions or just having a love for him in your heart. Those are, you do that and whatever struggles you're going through, if it's talking about learning education, all law is gonna remove all those burdens out your way. It may take 20 years, 30 years, 40 years may take a day, but it's going to happen. It's facts. I found nothing better than salat-ala-nabi and just having that connection with love of Allah is ou in this religion because it's Hawk. This came from Rabbul-izza you can't deny it. Even those who deny it can't deny it. They just don't accept it. That's what it means to be Catholic, that you reject it, you know the truth, and you reject

it anyway, I am always glad when people make that distinction. Kuer isn't just disbelief. It's knowing the truth and rejecting it. The root meaning Kafara or to cover.

Right, right.

It really drives that home and I think that has to always be in the context of when we are talking about that it is an intentional obscuring of what you know to be true. Alright. Let's shift gears a bit. Tell us a bit about EP three consulting. What is it, what inspired it? What are you hoping to achieve through it?

that's a, in some ways it's a dream of mine is just really a means of me being able to have a professional outlet to engage with people and share my ideas, the things I've learned over the years. Yes. Even though I did run the streets and do a lot of crazy things. My mother started another of nonprofits over the years, family I've participated in starting programs, running programs, all of that stuff, even in the midst of my, disobedience, and again, having that desire to help and work with people and knowing, I work for the nonprofit mah and I'm working in a space where we're dealing with the religion and teaching, man. Got to eat. You got family to take care of. insha'Allah, Allah will allow that to become something one day that would allow me to continue doing what I'm doing and support the work that I'm doing. that's the other thing. I'm not very big on the 5 0 1 C3 model. I think Muslims need to be much more dynamic and, self-sustaining and business-minded. Yes, the work of the law should not be something that brings charge or burden to the people. Also within that, you have to find a way to support yourself in the work that you're doing without continuing to come to the people asking them to help you. Because people start resenting that after a while, I shouldn't have to have X number of fundraisers every year to support the work that I'm doing. I should have means of doing that and supporting the work. And then I can come to people with projects, Hey, we are trying to do this. Help us do this. We got these people that we are trying to help here. Help us with this here. But in terms of like operating costs, administrative costs for institutions, we need to be more conscious about how we're going to be able to do that for ourselves. Restaurants, clothing, any number of different things that we can do within the community and build it up. This is what the walk served for all of our institutions like with, and all of the different, institutions of learning that we've had in our community over the centuries. All of these were supported by endowments, if you will, the walk that. Wealthy people within the community put up and supported. Even like within terms of how we support our scholars nowadays. people say, oh, well Abu Hanifa and them didn't ask anything. Abu Hanifa had a business. He was a wealthy man. He paid for his students' education in a number of instances. he sold fabrics. he was very well off. He didn't need anything. So yes, he didn't have to ask anybody for nothing because he gave her what he had. Those who did not have wealth, at one point in time, Allah gave them wealth and they used it fe, But at the same time, the community made sure that they had what they needed and they didn't allow them to be distracted from their daily bread if they were ones who needed to have some support. So that's what the walk came in. Yes, they had salaries and everything. They didn't have to worry about charging students to come learn because all of that was provided for, and they were provided for, and they were able to live their life. So they. That's part of one of the reasons why I have EP three. I wanted to be able to, insha'Allah have something that could support the work. 'cause I have other things that I want to do as Allah allows me to, insha'Allah. But, that, that was the whole thing behind that consulting and community development. And, this having a means of being able to sustain myself so I can do this work because this is it, this is it.

Well, may Allah make it easy for you and continue to bless your efforts to uplift and build community. I Amen. Ameen. Ameen. My final question for you, Seth, you mentioned as well as I did, that we had the opportunity to take a class together last October. Even though you're at Catholic Theological, union, what has been your experience and overall impression of Bayan Islamic graduate school and what it offers?

Well. I've appreciated the efforts of Bayan over the years. I've been following 'em for a while, since I've been home. I've been using the, online platform. I have a subscription to that for a number of years now. Although I don't use it as much as I would like to, doing so many other different things, but I access it nonetheless throughout the year.

That's bayan on demand.

Some of the different Yes. The band on demand that they put up and, I've always was interested in that. And just to give a, a side, I had actually applied for Bay and I, I applied for bay the first part of last summer. After graduation, I was asked to apply and bylaws, decree. There were some, small things that didn't get done with the application in time. I had a couple of letters that didn't come in time before the deadline and, I went with it, but then at the same time, I went to go do something. in the summer and I met, brother one from CTU Catholic Theological, and he asked me to apply for their program as well. So I told him, Hey, I applied for Bayan, but you know, I didn't get a couple of my reference studies in time. They still review my application, but I don't know. And lo and behold, I got, accepted to both programs, but CTU had a scholarship because I was gonna have to try to figure out how to pay for the Bay and Program. So that was why. But I always, I told them when I got there, I was like, so they told me it was part of the Consortium of Theological Schools in, in the Chicago land area. I can cross register, which is what I did. And I was able to get into that class 'cause, Dr. Ham law preserve him. I wanted to follow him. Well, 'cause me, and I know Sheikh Jahad Brown for a long time. He's a resident scholar of that band. And I met him. In Chicago. That first job was with Sheikh Rami. And, so me and him had connected for a while and I had been doing the, the course readings with him that he was doing the, I can't remember what they called the program. But I went through, a couple of books when I did, Sheikh Muhammad Hitu, Khalas. And then we went through on the Jawhara I went through those two books with him through that, program the Bayan was doing with the seminary text readings. again, the work of working with Muslim supporting Muslims and building up the community, that's what it is. despite whatever people are saying nowadays, it's a tremendous opportunity for Muslims in this country to do Dawa.

That's right.

Yes. I. Our cousins are crazy right now. they showing themselves. They, they, they acting good and crazy right now. We know that. We knew they was crazy. That's other people just learning that they crazy. We knew they was crazy. we were telling you for a long time. Them people was crazy. Now you, just finding out, okay,

that's right.

It's going to be all right. They going to calm down in a little while. 'cause after a while they aunties and their uncles and they, granddaddy, they gonna tell 'em, you better sit down. You're going too far. And they going to, they gonna shut it down in a little while. Yeah. But you know, we have work to do in this country. whatever. They talk about Sharia law or they, okay, whatever we talking about, God, we talking about salvation of souls. Right now it's work to be done. Whoever's facilitating the work, we may not agree on all the points about how to get things done or this, that, and the third, but as long as we don't divert from the central component of the work, which is KA law, everything else will work itself out.

That's right.

But get the work done.

That's right. And that kind of environment where human dignity is preserved, protected, and promoted, that allows us to embrace plurality without fear of some oppress arising up from amongst us.

Right, right.

Ustadh Abdul Muhaymin thank you for sharing your time and your wisdom with us today.

Alhamdullilah

to our listeners, thank you for tuning in. If you've been enjoying these conversations, be sure to subscribe, share, and stay connected with us. We also ask for you to support the work of Islamic Graduate School in one of two ways. Number one. Visit bayan online.org and contribute to the Muhammad Ali scholarship. Over 70% of Bayan students rely on scholarship support. Number two, subscribe to Bayan on demand. With over 30 classes taught by leading scholars and practitioners, it is a valuable resource for just $10 a month, and we are adding more content all the time. So join our community of learners, and as I like to say, don't just get a subscription for yourself. Get one for your family, your friends, even that person who's been giving you the stink eye because useful knowledge does what it produces. Peace. That's my thought and I'm putting it out there. I'm your host, Imam Tariq El-Amin. I leave you as I greeted you. May the peace that only God can give be upon you.