Oftentimes, you know, over election season, you

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know, I would feel somewhat guilty.

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You know, why am I, a young man, not getting out

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and making a difference in the world?

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As Christians, we shouldn't be

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putting an ounce of energy into this.

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Yeah, let's pray for them, respect them, obey

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them, but let's put all of our energies

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into God's kingdom because

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that's how true change will come.

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Before we get into this episode, I wanted to let

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you know that Anabaptist Perspectives

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is supported by our listeners, which means we

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don't run ads and we don't do product

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sponsorships.

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To make weekly episodes and to produce a series

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of listeners who believe in this work.

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You can get involved and support by going to

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So Bryant, you were describing something for me

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about how back in the day you felt, we

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were struggling to find the right words for it,

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but this sense of, oh, well, because we

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don't get involved in politics, you know, we

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don't vote, not participation, we're not

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going to get entangled in earthly kingdoms.

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Growing up struggling with that and saying, well,

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I'm just not really part of society.

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I'm not contributing to my community.

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This is almost like they're doing

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all the work and I'm dead weight.

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Talk to me about that.

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How did that feel?

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Why did you feel that way?

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Sure.

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So I would have grown up in a conservative

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Mennonite world, conservative Mennonite church.

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And obviously we were taught the things of

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non-participation in war.

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And of course, we do that because of teachings of

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Jesus, Matthew 5:44, to love your enemies,

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pray for them.

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But yet one of the things that I don't think was

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taught clearly, or maybe I just didn't

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catch, I'm definitely willing to give the benefit

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of the doubt there on that, was the

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idea that we are part of another kingdom.

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And so because of that reality, because we're

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pursuing something so much greater, we don't

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do these things.

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I think that some of that teaching was somewhat

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weak or I just did not catch that.

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And so oftentimes, you know, over election

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season, you know, I would feel somewhat guilty.

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You know, why am I, a young man, not getting out

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and making a difference in the world?

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And so you would kind of hang your head.

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You would, you know, any kind of political conversation you

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would try to get out of it as quickly

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as possible because you don't want

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to say that, "Well, I didn't vote."

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And lately, you know, in the last number of

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years, I've said things like our best kept

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secret as kingdom people, as

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Anaptist, is that we don't vote.

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Because whenever you say that to somebody, they

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all of a sudden go, "Whoa, you mean you

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don't vote."

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And oftentimes when people look at us, they would

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see that we, they would think, they

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often think that we're just people who are maybe

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kind of the epitome of a right wing

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Republican.

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You know, they would say that

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we are conservative Christians.

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And so they just assume that because of that, we

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are very, we're right wing.

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And so that's our

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narrative that we're buying into.

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But when we help them to see that we believe in

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our religion, in a Christianity, that in

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a Christ who is our king, and that we're part of

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another kingdom in such a way that we,

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because of that, we don't get involved in earthly

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politics, it just, it makes them ask

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a ton of questions.

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And oftentimes too, they all of a sudden realize,

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okay, so especially if you're talking with

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a secular person, or maybe somebody who is of

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maybe a left wing or in State College,

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it's a very liberal town.

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And so people would, you know, the secular people

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look at, you know, Christianity as

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their enemy, right?

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Because their idea of human flourishing is quite

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different than a Christian's idea of

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human flourishing.

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But when you share with them, you know, I don't

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vote, all of a sudden you're no longer

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a threat in the same way.

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You're not put into a box.

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Yeah.

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They might think that you're no threat at all,

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but I actually am a threat.

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But it's in the way of, hopefully, you know, in

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the way of Jesus, where we engage people

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in kindness and love, in truth and in grace, as

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Jesus did, and invite them into another

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alternative society, a brotherhood, the Church,

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the kingdom of God, where we operate in totally

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different ways.

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And so, and so as I've matured in my

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Christianity, and as I've

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embraced a really clear kingdom

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Christian understanding, I've come to realize

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that, you know, really, oftentimes, not always,

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but oftentimes people who are very involved

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politically, you know, so they put their vote

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in, let's say, on a federal level, you know, once

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every four years, they now think, okay,

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I've done my job.

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I can go back to my gaming or whatever hobby they

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might have, their football, their sports,

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their, you know, endless hours on Netflix.

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I can go back and do it

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once because I've done my good.

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You know, they've advocated their responsibility,

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you know, to this governing power.

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But as those of us who follow Christ, we realize

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that every day we are here as His ambassadors,

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and we never get to have a break.

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You know, we, God wants each one of us to be

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spreading His kingdom to be those who are

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telling others of that hope that is within us, to

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those who are, you know, who are reaching

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out to those around us, to our, who are using

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hospitality in the ways that He would want

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us to, who are serving those in prison and the

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immigrant and those who are the widows

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and widows and orphans, you know, as in James,

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that true religion, you know, that, that we

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don't just do that every once every four years,

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we are to be doing that every day.

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And so as I begin to understand that, you know,

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you don't just, you know, when a person

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confronts you for, you know, a person who's

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involved politically for not- for

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not being involved in that we're maybe parasites,

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you know, you don't want to just slam them

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with all your good works, right?

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You have to understand their perspective.

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You can understand why they're, why they are

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scandalized by that, the fact that you don't

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but hopefully, you know, you can lead them to

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understand why, in a kind, gentle way,

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understand why you don't

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get involved politically.

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And so some people are

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scandalized and offended by it.

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Oftentimes, you know, people who

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maybe are, are professing Christians.

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But those who are, who see

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Christianity as an enemy, it actually

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all of a sudden, it opens up doors to talk with

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them because they realize that you're

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not going to try to force them to obey a

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Christian, quote, Christian law.

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You only invite them, but

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I'm never going to force you.

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And all of a sudden, all of a

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sudden you can have dialogue.

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And I've found that numerous times and engage

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with an atheist man often, you know, he actually

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was becoming very angry towards God.

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He grew up in a right wing Christian home and

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left that, became an atheist, was very,

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bitter towards Christianity.

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And by God's grace, you know, through the

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kindness of kingdom Christians, he's come

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to realize that, that the God, you know, the

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Bible is not a God that's domineering, but

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it's a God that invites people.

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It's a Jesus who invites people into a

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relationship with him and to

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follow him it's for "whosoever

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will may come."

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So you, you did come to a

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place of peace then about this.

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Initially it was like, oh, you know, don't really

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want to, you know, we're kind of weird

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because we don't do these things.

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You've definitely come to a different place.

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You come to peace with it.

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Like what was that

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process like that take a while?

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You know, I was actually going to grab one of

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David Bercot's books, "The King That

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Turned the World Upside Down."

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I've given that book to so many people and I've

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seen it change, impact people's lives

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where they went from, you know, very involved in

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the political government, where they went

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from, you know, being armed to embracing the way

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of Jesus, putting away their firearms

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and being willing to just as Christ, you know,

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died and absorbed evil to the end, being

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willing to do that themselves.

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And so seeing people embrace that,

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seeing God's kingdom come in power and be

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advanced, you know, through these upside down

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means has really been, it's been powerful

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and has been a faith builder for me.

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And also when you read the early church, well,

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you look at the New Testament and see how

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the apostles and the church operated, you know,

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they were on the outside of society.

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They didn't have any kind of political group to

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move forward their work.

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It was the power of God, right?

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And then you go into the early church, the first

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couple hundred years, you see them actually

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defending, you know, to the emperor saying, "Hey,

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because there's peace, it's because

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of us, because we're praying,

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you know, we're praying for peace."

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And we are to, we're commanded to pray for our

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King, to honor our King, Romans 13

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actually to look at them as a

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servant, as a minister of God.

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So there's a certain honor that

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we are, that we are to give them.

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And so, yeah, so we're here, you know, we're

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paying our taxes, we're respecting the authority

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of the land, we're, you know, we're by God's

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grace raising Godly families, you know, who

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are blessed into our communities, you know,

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they're on our street, there's very few children.

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And now our children are getting requests from

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everywhere, sometimes too many.

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I'm like, "Come help me do this,

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come help me do that," you know?

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And so, you know, people love our children.

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They're far from perfect.

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I have some stories of neighbors

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who got annoyed at our children too.

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But you know, there's, in general, you know,

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people are like, "This is amazing to have

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a family with children who, for the most part,

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are well-behaved and are willing to serve."

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And so, these are ways that we in very tangible

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ways impact our communities.

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But it's not through high dollar budgets and high

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profile people and power over, it's through

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following Jesus.

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There's a great quote by E. Stanley Jones that

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I really, really love, and I just want

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to quote that here.

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Yeah, so there's, you know, as you think about

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how the way we live in the world is so different

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than way a person who is

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embracing the political powers.

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And so, especially in the United States where,

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you know, everyone it's just in the water, you

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know, the United States is somehow Christian, and

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so we get involved in this, you know,

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in this Christian...

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But people are going to push back

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on what you're saying there, right?

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Because they're going to be like,

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"This is the way to be a Christian."

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Right.

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It is to do the opposite of

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what you're saying, essentially.

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Yeah, sure.

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And so, yeah, many, you know, many Christians,

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you know, in America believe that, and it's

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just been taught from little on up.

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Like, I just heard Franklin Graham saying today

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he was promoting the ideas on a video,

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the idea of America, you know, getting behind

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Israel, because when America does that, America

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is going to be blessed, you know?

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And he said, "I've been taught since six years

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old in Sunday school that we are to bless

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the state of Israel."

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And so, you know, you have, just within

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the ecosystem of United States within

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the conservative Christian world, there's just

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this understanding somehow that, you

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know, United States is a Christian nation.

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Of course, dispensationalism in line with Israel

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is all kind of a part of that package.

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And so, to promote the way of King Jesus, as we

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see it as the kingdom of God, which

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is this upside down way, sounds so

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scandalous and so counterintuitive.

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You know, over here it's pragmatics.

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Here it's just like, "Wow, how does this work?"

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But it is the way of God.

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It is the upside down kingdom.

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Led by a king, an incredible king, he was willing

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to, as in Philippians 2 here, take

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that stair step down the whole

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way down to the cross and die there.

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Of course, rising again, inaugurating the new

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covenant, the new kingdom that we get

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to be part of that operates

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in a whole different manner.

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E. Stanley Jones says it so well.

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He says, "The God I find in Christ is a God who

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overcomes evil with good, hate by

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love and the world by a cross."

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And so, putting all of our allegiances, all of

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our energies into God's kingdom is where

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it's at.

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That's how the world will

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be changed by his power.

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And so many Christians get involved

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over here in this political world.

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But there's many people over here.

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I can tell people over here in the governments of

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the United States, there's way enough people

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to run that.

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As Christians, we shouldn't be

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putting an ounce of energy into this.

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Yeah, let's pray for them, respect them, obey

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them, but let's put all of our energies into

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God's kingdom because that's how true change will

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come by inviting people in to this nation

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that transcends all nations.

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People are going to have a lot of picks with

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that, I can imagine, reading the comments,

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like, "Oh, you're just out of touch.

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Don't you understand how the world works?"

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00:14:06,136 --> 00:14:08,180

You can't just do that.

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That's not how change really happens.

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If you want to change the world, you got to be a

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lot more aggressive about it than just

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what you were just outlining.

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What would you say to that?

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I'm especially thinking of

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00:14:20,025 --> 00:14:22,152

Christians who would make that claim.

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It's like, "No, no, no.

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00:14:23,070 --> 00:14:23,779

To be a good Christian,

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00:14:24,822 --> 00:14:25,823

don't do what you just described.

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Go march on Washington, go do this, go get

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involved, go push for change in the political

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00:14:33,038 --> 00:14:34,790

sphere, get people elected."

352

00:14:36,500 --> 00:14:37,334

Where's the breakdown there?

353

00:14:37,334 --> 00:14:39,545

Because if they're saying, "This is the right way

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to do it," and you're saying, "That's

355

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not the kingdom of Christ.

356

00:14:42,715 --> 00:14:43,799

That's not how Christ operates."

357

00:14:44,383 --> 00:14:45,259

Tell me more about that.

358

00:14:45,426 --> 00:14:46,176

What do you say to those people?

359

00:14:46,218 --> 00:14:48,220

Well, there's many places we go with that, right?

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00:14:48,262 --> 00:14:50,139

We can go into the teaching of Jesus, the

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teaching of the apostles, to overcome evil

362

00:14:52,266 --> 00:14:54,393

with good, heap

363

00:14:54,602 --> 00:14:55,853

coals of fire on their head. [Romans 12]

364

00:14:55,853 --> 00:14:57,354

There's just so much here.

365

00:14:58,564 --> 00:14:59,940

In many ways, I could go with that.

366

00:15:00,566 --> 00:15:02,818

But maybe I'll just say two things there.

367

00:15:03,277 --> 00:15:09,908

I love the analogy of what the conscience is to

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00:15:09,908 --> 00:15:12,578

the body, the Christian is to the world.

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So the conscience is not connected to our body

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00:15:19,168 --> 00:15:23,172

with ligaments and bones, and it's not

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able to make us move physically.

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00:15:26,717 --> 00:15:29,303

It's like the soul, the spirit, the conscience,

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and I'm not going to try to parse all that

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out.

375

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But it's this...

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innate understanding that God is putting us that...

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You can look at just the basic

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things of like, "It's wrong to kill."

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Any human on this earth

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understands that it's wrong to kill.

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They might not even have heard of God or the

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00:15:53,327 --> 00:15:55,829

Bible or Jesus or anything, but they just

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00:15:55,871 --> 00:15:56,664

understand, right?

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It's in there.

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And then when you do that, your conscience, of

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00:16:00,668 --> 00:16:02,586

course, convicts you, condemns you.

387

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You're going against your conscience.

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00:16:04,046 --> 00:16:06,256

Of course, you can harden your conscience, but

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the conscience is there nonetheless.

390

00:16:09,593 --> 00:16:12,221

And so it is informing us.

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00:16:12,888 --> 00:16:18,769

It is exerting a form of pressure upon us, but

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00:16:18,769 --> 00:16:22,898

it's not through an actual muscle or bone.

393

00:16:23,524 --> 00:16:26,402

And so the same way is it is

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00:16:26,402 --> 00:16:28,362

with the church to the world.

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00:16:28,946 --> 00:16:30,114

So we live in the world as

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00:16:30,114 --> 00:16:32,616

righteous people, as it says.

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00:16:33,701 --> 00:16:39,039

So Ephesians 2 here, right after the Christ..

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00:16:39,039 --> 00:16:39,998

humility and exaltation.

399

00:16:40,332 --> 00:16:41,417

We're to be lights in the world.

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00:16:42,292 --> 00:16:43,711

We're supposed to be children of God who are

401

00:16:43,711 --> 00:16:46,255

faultless in a crooked and perverted generation

402

00:16:46,380 --> 00:16:49,091

among whom you shine like stars in the world.

403

00:16:49,425 --> 00:16:50,300

Just love that idea.

404

00:16:51,427 --> 00:16:55,848

Is there actual physical force with a star?

405

00:16:56,974 --> 00:17:00,352

No, it's just this amazing body millions of miles

406

00:17:00,352 --> 00:17:01,478

away that's shedding light.

407

00:17:01,478 --> 00:17:02,855

And we go, "Wow, look at the stars.

408

00:17:02,855 --> 00:17:03,272

It's amazing.

409

00:17:03,939 --> 00:17:04,857

Look at the Milky Way."

410

00:17:06,024 --> 00:17:06,692

So we're supposed to be like

411

00:17:06,692 --> 00:17:09,486

stars in the world, shining light.

412

00:17:10,070 --> 00:17:15,117

And then you have over here in 1 Peter 2, up here

413

00:17:15,117 --> 00:17:18,328

at verse 9, a very common verse,

414

00:17:18,579 --> 00:17:20,914

"But you're a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a

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00:17:20,914 --> 00:17:23,459

holy nation, a people for his possession,

416

00:17:23,459 --> 00:17:25,127

and may proclaim the praise of him is called you

417

00:17:25,127 --> 00:17:26,920

out of darkness and into his marvelous

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00:17:27,004 --> 00:17:27,588

light."

419

00:17:28,172 --> 00:17:28,380

Okay?

420

00:17:29,131 --> 00:17:34,052

So the church is this light.

421

00:17:34,470 --> 00:17:36,930

It is this holy nation, these holy people,

422

00:17:37,181 --> 00:17:39,725

righteous people that are really harbingers

423

00:17:39,767 --> 00:17:40,726

of the future, right?

424

00:17:41,518 --> 00:17:43,061

We're showing people what it would look like if

425

00:17:43,061 --> 00:17:45,189

the whole world would obey Jesus.

426

00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:49,443

So we're this society that's proclaiming a future

427

00:17:49,443 --> 00:17:52,362

righteous nation that will sometime

428

00:17:52,404 --> 00:17:53,781

happen, the new heaven, the new earth.

429

00:17:54,406 --> 00:17:55,824

And so we are proclaiming

430

00:17:55,824 --> 00:17:57,493

that, but we're never forcing it.

431

00:17:57,493 --> 00:17:59,495

Just like the conscience doesn't force the body,

432

00:17:59,953 --> 00:18:03,081

so therefore the church does not force

433

00:18:03,081 --> 00:18:03,749

the world.

434

00:18:04,792 --> 00:18:05,334

But we're there.

435

00:18:05,667 --> 00:18:06,585

We're a force to be...

436

00:18:07,252 --> 00:18:08,670

We're definitely a force to be reckoned with.

437

00:18:09,505 --> 00:18:10,255

And especially if we're being

438

00:18:10,255 --> 00:18:11,840

faithful, we're not being faithful now.

439

00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:14,718

It's just, we just go by the means of the world

440

00:18:14,718 --> 00:18:18,263

and we're apostasized and that witness

441

00:18:18,263 --> 00:18:19,807

is gone, which is very sad.

442

00:18:20,432 --> 00:18:22,518

And I think as obviously as Anabaptist people,

443

00:18:23,060 --> 00:18:25,145

we've struggled, as kingdom people have struggled

444

00:18:25,145 --> 00:18:27,523

with this, we've become materialistic, we've

445

00:18:27,523 --> 00:18:28,857

become the call of the quiet in the land,

446

00:18:29,608 --> 00:18:32,319

all these things where we haven't always been

447

00:18:32,319 --> 00:18:37,199

faithful to being really this nation or

448

00:18:37,199 --> 00:18:38,367

this city on a hill.

449

00:18:39,326 --> 00:18:43,872

And so that's one way I like to think of it is

450

00:18:43,872 --> 00:18:45,833

just as the conscience of the body, the

451

00:18:45,833 --> 00:18:48,794

churche is to the world, we never force, but we

452

00:18:48,794 --> 00:18:50,629

need to be there as we're there faithful,

453

00:18:51,380 --> 00:18:54,258

we are a force to be reckoned with in the world.

454

00:18:54,675 --> 00:18:54,842

Absolutely.

455

00:18:55,134 --> 00:18:56,593

Another way I like to look at it too, I have this

456

00:18:56,593 --> 00:19:00,097

little program here or this little design,

457

00:19:00,097 --> 00:19:00,973

rather crude.

458

00:19:00,973 --> 00:19:01,765

It's actually a picture I

459

00:19:01,765 --> 00:19:04,309

just had Daniel print off for us.

460

00:19:04,935 --> 00:19:06,770

This was a whiteboard that I had at a church

461

00:19:06,770 --> 00:19:09,398

where I talked as we were thinking about

462

00:19:09,481 --> 00:19:11,984

this, the calling of the Christian.

463

00:19:12,776 --> 00:19:15,988

And so another way to look at it is the

464

00:19:15,988 --> 00:19:17,364

understanding that nations

465

00:19:17,364 --> 00:19:20,367

are the governments, in Romans

466

00:19:20,534 --> 00:19:23,245

13, they are a preserving grace

467

00:19:23,245 --> 00:19:26,248

and grace is put there intentionally.

468

00:19:28,041 --> 00:19:31,503

There is a sense of dignity to that work.

469

00:19:32,129 --> 00:19:35,591

A good police officer brings order

470

00:19:35,591 --> 00:19:38,927

in chaos in ways in the community.

471

00:19:39,428 --> 00:19:40,387

A good government does.

472

00:19:40,971 --> 00:19:42,389

Obviously, there's governments on a continuum

473

00:19:42,389 --> 00:19:44,141

from evil governments to governments that

474

00:19:44,141 --> 00:19:48,604

are more righteous, maybe you could say, or more

475

00:19:48,604 --> 00:19:52,316

according to the way of proverbs that

476

00:19:52,316 --> 00:19:54,902

are kind of alining themselves in general with

477

00:19:54,902 --> 00:19:56,737

kind of the grains of the universe, the way

478

00:19:56,737 --> 00:19:58,030

that God has created the world.

479

00:19:58,655 --> 00:20:01,366

And so they are a preserving grace.

480

00:20:01,366 --> 00:20:02,993

They bring order in chaos.

481

00:20:03,619 --> 00:20:06,580

They make it safe for us to go to the downtown of

482

00:20:06,580 --> 00:20:08,540

the store, even in the middle of the night,

483

00:20:08,540 --> 00:20:09,291

we can walk on our

484

00:20:09,291 --> 00:20:10,709

streets there in State College.

485

00:20:11,168 --> 00:20:13,170

We're not fearful because in

486

00:20:13,170 --> 00:20:14,546

general, there's a good government.

487

00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:16,381

So they preserve humanity.

488

00:20:17,382 --> 00:20:19,509

And then of course, this little drawing here

489

00:20:19,509 --> 00:20:21,720

helps you kind of see, this person has his

490

00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:24,014

allegiance cast with the United States, a very

491

00:20:24,014 --> 00:20:25,307

small part of the world.

492

00:20:26,016 --> 00:20:28,727

But nonetheless, it's a preserving grace.

493

00:20:29,186 --> 00:20:30,812

And over here is a redeeming grace.

494

00:20:31,021 --> 00:20:32,022

And that's what we're part of.

495

00:20:32,481 --> 00:20:34,733

And we are part of a global nation.

496

00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:36,735

We even have the universe here.

497

00:20:37,402 --> 00:20:41,615

We are serving the ways of God in the world.

498

00:20:42,449 --> 00:20:44,910

So the person in China who's a

499

00:20:44,910 --> 00:20:47,204

believer is my brother and my sister.

500

00:20:47,663 --> 00:20:49,957

And God is our father and

501

00:20:49,957 --> 00:20:50,999

Jesus is our elder brother.

502

00:20:51,833 --> 00:20:53,752

We be a brotherhood.

503

00:20:54,044 --> 00:20:54,836

We're part of the church.

504

00:20:55,754 --> 00:20:56,630

God's called out people.

505

00:20:57,130 --> 00:21:01,343

And so we're a part of the big plan.

506

00:21:02,844 --> 00:21:06,932

When people become political and align themselves

507

00:21:06,932 --> 00:21:10,310

with a political group within their nation,

508

00:21:10,769 --> 00:21:12,312

their plan becomes very small.

509

00:21:12,938 --> 00:21:15,732

But we're part of a huge work

510

00:21:15,732 --> 00:21:16,900

that God is doing in the world.

511

00:21:17,442 --> 00:21:19,361

And so we're part of the redeeming grace, which

512

00:21:19,361 --> 00:21:21,154

is where we lead people to Christ.

513

00:21:21,738 --> 00:21:25,659

And through that, they become, they experience a

514

00:21:25,659 --> 00:21:28,578

new birth and become a new person in Christ.

515

00:21:29,162 --> 00:21:30,163

Old things are passed away.

516

00:21:30,163 --> 00:21:31,164

Behold, all things are come new.

517

00:21:31,164 --> 00:21:34,793

And they become that new humanity that's now part

518

00:21:34,793 --> 00:21:37,546

of God's nation and where they get changed

519

00:21:37,921 --> 00:21:39,047

from the inside out, right?

520

00:21:39,047 --> 00:21:40,215

As only the power of God

521

00:21:40,215 --> 00:21:41,299

and the Holy Spirit can do.

522

00:21:41,758 --> 00:21:44,886

And so that's another way that has really helped

523

00:21:44,886 --> 00:21:46,847

me as I talk with people.

524

00:21:47,347 --> 00:21:49,391

I say, yes, we need to pray for the government.

525

00:21:49,933 --> 00:21:50,892

It is a grace.

526

00:21:51,309 --> 00:21:53,395

It's in Romans 13, but

527

00:21:53,395 --> 00:21:55,230

there's many people over here.

528

00:21:56,148 --> 00:21:57,524

Don't waste your life preserving.

529

00:21:58,567 --> 00:22:00,318

Come and join us redeeming.

530

00:22:00,610 --> 00:22:02,654

This is where God's truly at work.

531

00:22:02,946 --> 00:22:05,615

This is where God is truly changing the world.

532

00:22:06,742 --> 00:22:09,119

It's like, what are you choosing to invest your

533

00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:11,329

very limited amount of time and resources

534

00:22:11,413 --> 00:22:13,415

here on this earth before you die, right?

535

00:22:13,415 --> 00:22:14,416

Like we're not going to live forever.

536

00:22:15,292 --> 00:22:19,755

So if you spend it pouring into, say, an earthly

537

00:22:19,755 --> 00:22:23,800

nation, that's a very, I don't know,

538

00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:26,720

almost like a small vision.

539

00:22:27,179 --> 00:22:28,055

Right, yes.

540

00:22:28,055 --> 00:22:29,973

Versus, yeah, it's almost like a...

541

00:22:29,973 --> 00:22:31,516

Huge vision loss.

542

00:22:32,142 --> 00:22:35,562

Yeah, it's almost like, okay, like that's okay.

543

00:22:35,812 --> 00:22:39,608

But versus redeeming lost humanity, Christ

544

00:22:39,608 --> 00:22:40,859

working through the church.

545

00:22:40,859 --> 00:22:42,152

I don't know, I'm just thinking of different

546

00:22:42,152 --> 00:22:44,321

missionaries and things that I've worked

547

00:22:44,404 --> 00:22:46,490

with over the years and the incredible stories of

548

00:22:46,490 --> 00:22:47,949

how they're going deep into the jungle

549

00:22:47,949 --> 00:22:51,036

and bringing redemption into horrible, horrible

550

00:22:51,036 --> 00:22:53,622

situations and the life transformation that's there.

551

00:22:53,622 --> 00:22:54,706

And I'm over there being like, huh.

552

00:22:55,207 --> 00:22:58,460

But if I was all focused on getting the next

553

00:22:58,460 --> 00:23:02,089

person elected, totally would miss these other

554

00:23:02,089 --> 00:23:04,216

things of what the global church is doing in

555

00:23:04,216 --> 00:23:07,094

maybe a country that most of us could not

556

00:23:07,094 --> 00:23:08,762

even find on a map, but

557

00:23:08,762 --> 00:23:10,263

those people are valuable.

558

00:23:11,181 --> 00:23:14,559

I think one thing that really hit for me was the

559

00:23:14,559 --> 00:23:16,686

United States of America is 4% of

560

00:23:16,686 --> 00:23:17,687

the global population.

561

00:23:17,687 --> 00:23:19,397

It's a very, very small,

562

00:23:19,397 --> 00:23:22,067

very small part of the globe.

563

00:23:23,026 --> 00:23:24,611

And yet we- if you're a Christian,

564

00:23:25,779 --> 00:23:30,033

we believe God values all humanity.

565

00:23:30,575 --> 00:23:33,620

And so if we get all fixated on just this one

566

00:23:33,620 --> 00:23:34,746

little piece, I don't know.

567

00:23:35,622 --> 00:23:37,999

I've had to bounce that around in my head for a

568

00:23:37,999 --> 00:23:39,626

while and that really helped me actually.

569

00:23:41,419 --> 00:23:42,963

The church is all around the world.

570

00:23:43,463 --> 00:23:44,631

It's not just right here.

571

00:23:45,215 --> 00:23:45,423

Sure.

572

00:23:45,632 --> 00:23:47,843

But what's happening in our day though, Reagan,

573

00:23:48,093 --> 00:23:52,889

is that there's with the internet and then

574

00:23:52,889 --> 00:23:56,309

you have social media and it's algorithms that

575

00:23:56,309 --> 00:23:58,436

they have ordered really well to pull

576

00:23:58,436 --> 00:24:00,522

you in and take you down rabbit

577

00:24:00,522 --> 00:24:03,942

trails and trap you in many ways.

578

00:24:03,984 --> 00:24:07,404

And so just in the last couple of days here, we

579

00:24:09,531 --> 00:24:12,617

just came through midterm elections and

580

00:24:12,617 --> 00:24:17,330

you have a mayor now in New York City who is a

581

00:24:17,330 --> 00:24:22,169

Muslim, a very outspoken Muslim man who

582

00:24:22,544 --> 00:24:24,045

also is a democratic socialist,

583

00:24:24,713 --> 00:24:27,257

pretty much the opposite of a Trump.

584

00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:33,096

And so you have all these narratives going on and

585

00:24:33,096 --> 00:24:35,098

people get pulled into them.

586

00:24:35,098 --> 00:24:35,807

Oh, yeah.

587

00:24:36,057 --> 00:24:36,224

Okay.

588

00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:39,853

So you have to, we have to be understanding when

589

00:24:39,853 --> 00:24:41,980

we interact with people around us, sometimes

590

00:24:41,980 --> 00:24:46,860

even within our own church, who are just being so

591

00:24:46,860 --> 00:24:48,820

influenced by what they're listening to.

592

00:24:50,155 --> 00:24:52,866

And they're getting pulled in and so they think

593

00:24:52,866 --> 00:24:55,535

there's this visceral battle that they're

594

00:24:55,577 --> 00:24:57,871

fighting or that this

595

00:24:57,871 --> 00:24:59,539

particular narrative is fighting.

596

00:25:00,498 --> 00:25:02,417

And so it's through hate, right?

597

00:25:02,959 --> 00:25:07,422

It's through polarization that people get, actors

598

00:25:07,422 --> 00:25:08,757

get people on their side.

599

00:25:08,757 --> 00:25:10,842

It's the spirit of fear, all

600

00:25:10,842 --> 00:25:15,764

these things is how you move people.

601

00:25:16,139 --> 00:25:19,726

And so a lot of, as we interact with that

602

00:25:19,726 --> 00:25:23,188

Protestant Christian who's really fired up

603

00:25:23,980 --> 00:25:29,402

about his right wing agenda, or even maybe that

604

00:25:29,402 --> 00:25:31,112

left wing Christian that comes into

605

00:25:31,112 --> 00:25:34,074

our business, whatever that might be, or even

606

00:25:34,074 --> 00:25:36,326

that young person in our church we're interacting

607

00:25:36,368 --> 00:25:39,829

with, we need to interact with him very gently

608

00:25:39,829 --> 00:25:44,834

because it can seem like to them getting involved

609

00:25:44,834 --> 00:25:48,922

in a tangible way in this particular narrative or

610

00:25:48,922 --> 00:25:50,507

there might be is a way that we're going

611

00:25:50,507 --> 00:25:52,008

to solve these problems.

612

00:25:53,385 --> 00:25:56,304

And we all want to be part of the change in the

613

00:25:56,304 --> 00:25:59,057

world and it can seem vague whenever we

614

00:25:59,057 --> 00:26:00,433

talk about this preserving

615

00:26:00,433 --> 00:26:03,812

grace, we're not casting a ballot.

616

00:26:06,398 --> 00:26:09,192

We're not going out and going down to Washington

617

00:26:09,192 --> 00:26:12,070

DC and putting on- a picketing at the White

618

00:26:12,070 --> 00:26:13,530

House, we're not doing those things.

619

00:26:13,863 --> 00:26:19,035

We're just in quiet ways over here loving our

620

00:26:19,035 --> 00:26:23,331

neighbor, raising families, showing kindness

621

00:26:23,331 --> 00:26:25,292

towards any kind of evil that comes at us.

622

00:26:25,959 --> 00:26:30,171

It doesn't have some of the appeal that all these

623

00:26:30,171 --> 00:26:33,758

podcasters and people are doing to get

624

00:26:34,676 --> 00:26:35,302

to move people.

625

00:26:36,011 --> 00:26:37,762

It can seem like it's a very

626

00:26:37,762 --> 00:26:39,723

visceral battle they're in.

627

00:26:39,723 --> 00:26:41,516

And so just recently we were at an in school

628

00:26:41,516 --> 00:26:46,604

conference where the lady had a dynamic keynote

629

00:26:47,314 --> 00:26:49,274

and she's a conservative right wing Christian.

630

00:26:50,358 --> 00:26:53,820

And she was saying how we don't wrestle against

631

00:26:53,820 --> 00:26:56,448

flesh and blood, but against principalities

632

00:26:56,448 --> 00:26:57,699

and powers and amen.

633

00:26:58,533 --> 00:27:00,493

And then she goes in to say that we so because of

634

00:27:00,493 --> 00:27:03,079

this spiritual battle, we have these issues

635

00:27:03,079 --> 00:27:03,788

around us.

636

00:27:03,788 --> 00:27:05,332

And so the way we're going to make a difference

637

00:27:05,332 --> 00:27:08,793

is by getting involved in the political world.

638

00:27:09,252 --> 00:27:12,797

And it's such direct correlation that can make

639

00:27:12,797 --> 00:27:14,257

that it sounds so right.

640

00:27:15,508 --> 00:27:21,931

But we have to really be people who have a deep

641

00:27:21,931 --> 00:27:23,850

understanding of what God is calling

642

00:27:23,850 --> 00:27:25,060

us to through Christ and his

643

00:27:25,060 --> 00:27:27,479

kingdom to confront lies like that.

644

00:27:28,188 --> 00:27:29,939

And so people get pulled into that real quickly.

645

00:27:31,191 --> 00:27:33,735

I was just thinking politics is driven.

646

00:27:35,653 --> 00:27:38,281

One of the engines that drives politics is fear.

647

00:27:39,157 --> 00:27:39,366

Sure.

648

00:27:39,991 --> 00:27:41,951

That's something that's how you get people to get

649

00:27:41,951 --> 00:27:44,788

their feet out the door and cast a vote, right? It's fear.

650

00:27:45,372 --> 00:27:46,748

And yet that's kind of the

651

00:27:46,748 --> 00:27:48,041

opposite of what Jesus is saying.

652

00:27:48,291 --> 00:27:49,250

I don't give the spirit of

653

00:27:49,250 --> 00:27:51,544

fear, but of a sound mind.

654

00:27:51,753 --> 00:27:52,295

I don't know.

655

00:27:52,295 --> 00:27:55,840

It just kind of makes you think like, what's the

656

00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:58,134

emotive for the things we're doing?

657

00:27:58,134 --> 00:28:01,304

Like in the two world pictures you've drawn here,

658

00:28:01,304 --> 00:28:05,809

that redeeming framework seems a lot

659

00:28:05,809 --> 00:28:09,187

more driven by the hope of the gospel and the

660

00:28:09,187 --> 00:28:11,731

power of Christ in our own lives versus

661

00:28:11,898 --> 00:28:14,651

saying, "I'm so afraid of what will happen if the

662

00:28:14,651 --> 00:28:16,236

other side wins the election."

663

00:28:16,319 --> 00:28:18,113

I remember this really clearly.

664

00:28:18,113 --> 00:28:20,240

There was a one election back when I was a child.

665

00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:24,119

I remember people, good Christians, right?

666

00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:26,538

Being like, "Oh my goodness, if so and so gets

667

00:28:26,538 --> 00:28:29,040

into the White House, that will be the

668

00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:30,834

end of Christianity essentially."

669

00:28:31,418 --> 00:28:33,837

The fear was so palpable.

670

00:28:33,837 --> 00:28:35,505

And as a child, that really

671

00:28:35,505 --> 00:28:37,090

had an impact actually on me.

672

00:28:37,549 --> 00:28:38,591

Because when there's people you know saying

673

00:28:38,591 --> 00:28:41,010

things like, "Oh my goodness, the world is

674

00:28:41,052 --> 00:28:42,387

going to end if this happens.

675

00:28:42,387 --> 00:28:43,179

What do we do?

676

00:28:43,179 --> 00:28:43,972

Well, we don't vote, so

677

00:28:43,972 --> 00:28:44,764

there's nothing we can do.

678

00:28:45,056 --> 00:28:46,224

So we need to really pray."

679

00:28:46,391 --> 00:28:48,852

Well then that person got into the White House

680

00:28:48,852 --> 00:28:50,645

and it was like, "Oh, the world is going to...

681

00:28:50,895 --> 00:28:52,355

Oh, nothing really happened."

682

00:28:52,355 --> 00:28:56,359

My point being a good friend of mine made the

683

00:28:56,359 --> 00:28:58,695

point of no matter who's in the White

684

00:28:58,695 --> 00:29:02,657

House or who's running this or what level of

685

00:29:02,657 --> 00:29:05,660

resistance there might be, none of that

686

00:29:05,660 --> 00:29:06,619

should have an effect on

687

00:29:06,619 --> 00:29:08,913

whether we can be followers of Christ.

688

00:29:09,914 --> 00:29:12,208

We're still following Christ no matter what and

689

00:29:12,208 --> 00:29:14,085

just being able to rest in that instead

690

00:29:14,085 --> 00:29:14,752

of being driven by all

691

00:29:14,752 --> 00:29:16,337

that, the language of fear.

692

00:29:17,046 --> 00:29:18,214

And that was really helpful for me.

693

00:29:18,673 --> 00:29:24,804

Yeah, and along that line, people who kind of

694

00:29:24,804 --> 00:29:27,807

have like a somewhat of a belief that America

695

00:29:27,807 --> 00:29:31,352

is a Christian nation, that can really drive them

696

00:29:31,352 --> 00:29:34,939

or propel them to that fear or that sense

697

00:29:34,939 --> 00:29:36,900

of like, "This is being lost.

698

00:29:37,442 --> 00:29:39,027

This is the end of the world."

699

00:29:39,277 --> 00:29:41,613

For those of us who understand clearly that

700

00:29:41,613 --> 00:29:43,823

America never was a Christian nation, we're

701

00:29:43,823 --> 00:29:45,450

like, "Well, that's what nations do.

702

00:29:46,159 --> 00:29:47,952

This kind of stuff happens all the time."

703

00:29:47,952 --> 00:29:48,328

Oh boy.

704

00:29:48,536 --> 00:29:50,163

So saying the statement like that though, I'm

705

00:29:50,163 --> 00:29:51,539

sure there's people listening that would

706

00:29:51,539 --> 00:29:53,666

be very much opposed to your statement of like,

707

00:29:53,666 --> 00:29:55,543

"American never was a Christian nation."

708

00:29:56,127 --> 00:29:56,461

Sure.

709

00:29:56,711 --> 00:29:56,920

Right.

710

00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:57,587

I think that's basically

711

00:29:57,587 --> 00:29:58,838

word for word what you just said, right?

712

00:29:58,838 --> 00:30:00,715

That could really rile some people up.

713

00:30:01,549 --> 00:30:03,426

Well, they'll have to go read Bercot's book.

714

00:30:03,635 --> 00:30:04,260

Yeah, that's true.

715

00:30:04,552 --> 00:30:06,971

And I think about the other book, "To the Myth of

716

00:30:06,971 --> 00:30:09,891

a Christian Nation," forgetting who

717

00:30:09,891 --> 00:30:10,558

the writer that is.

718

00:30:10,558 --> 00:30:11,309

Oh, that's Greg Boyd.

719

00:30:11,309 --> 00:30:12,018

Yeah, Greg Boyd.

720

00:30:12,685 --> 00:30:14,145

So there's a lot of great books to kind of help

721

00:30:14,145 --> 00:30:17,732

you look at different narrative of United

722

00:30:17,732 --> 00:30:21,027

States and maybe what we've been taught in some

723

00:30:21,027 --> 00:30:22,237

Christian history books.

724

00:30:22,779 --> 00:30:23,029

Yeah.

725

00:30:23,655 --> 00:30:26,991

Romans 1:16 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel

726

00:30:26,991 --> 00:30:30,954

because it is God's power for salvation to

727

00:30:30,995 --> 00:30:32,247

everyone who believes first to

728

00:30:32,247 --> 00:30:33,331

the Jew and also to the Greek."

729

00:30:34,749 --> 00:30:36,709

So yeah, so that we...

730

00:30:37,669 --> 00:30:39,420

It is the power of the gospel

731

00:30:39,420 --> 00:30:42,048

that is going to change the world.

732

00:30:42,549 --> 00:30:45,927

And back to my little, this little diagram here,

733

00:30:45,927 --> 00:30:50,139

this little diagram this drawing is that,

734

00:30:51,015 --> 00:30:53,142

I think of Matthew 25 when I

735

00:30:53,142 --> 00:30:55,228

think of preserving and redeeming.

736

00:30:55,895 --> 00:30:58,940

In Matthew 25, the parable there of the talents

737

00:30:58,940 --> 00:31:01,359

where Jesus gives that great parable.

738

00:31:02,193 --> 00:31:05,905

There's a master who gives two talents, five

739

00:31:05,905 --> 00:31:07,323

talents, and one talent.

740

00:31:08,449 --> 00:31:10,118

And the two talent, the five talent,

741

00:31:10,326 --> 00:31:13,037

they take it and they go invest it.

742

00:31:14,163 --> 00:31:15,790

So they're investing it,

743

00:31:15,790 --> 00:31:16,583

they're being vulnerable.

744

00:31:18,001 --> 00:31:21,296

And then because of that, because of that faith,

745

00:31:22,714 --> 00:31:24,382

because of that just being willing

746

00:31:24,465 --> 00:31:28,177

to press into that work that their master's given

747

00:31:28,177 --> 00:31:30,263

them, there's an increase, right?

748

00:31:30,263 --> 00:31:31,055

There's a multiplication.

749

00:31:31,931 --> 00:31:32,849

And I think we see that God

750

00:31:32,849 --> 00:31:34,058

is a God of multiplication.

751

00:31:34,058 --> 00:31:36,436

He wants to see us multiplying what we've been

752

00:31:36,436 --> 00:31:38,813

given, being good stewards of the gospel,

753

00:31:39,147 --> 00:31:41,524

being good stewards of all these different

754

00:31:41,524 --> 00:31:43,401

talents and graces that He's given to us.

755

00:31:43,818 --> 00:31:45,320

But then we see that one talent

756

00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:47,655

servant going and preserving, right?

757

00:31:47,905 --> 00:31:49,282

He's a hole digger as Gary

758

00:31:49,282 --> 00:31:51,200

Miller so well lays out in his book.

759

00:31:51,951 --> 00:31:53,411

He's being, he's defensive.

760

00:31:54,329 --> 00:31:55,163

He's fearful.

761

00:31:55,455 --> 00:31:57,540

He's burying that talent in the ground.

762

00:31:58,458 --> 00:31:59,292

He's preserving it, right?

763

00:31:59,667 --> 00:32:01,919

When the magic comes back, he's got it.

764

00:32:01,919 --> 00:32:05,381

You know, it's just like whenever we can pickles

765

00:32:05,381 --> 00:32:07,008

at the end of the year, you know, you can

766

00:32:07,008 --> 00:32:08,843

those pickles, there's no multiplication that

767

00:32:08,843 --> 00:32:09,719

happens in there, right?

768

00:32:10,303 --> 00:32:11,262

You have not, right?

769

00:32:12,263 --> 00:32:12,930

And later you bring that

770

00:32:12,930 --> 00:32:13,931

out and you eat those pickles.

771

00:32:15,058 --> 00:32:17,060

So there's a preservation that happens and we

772

00:32:17,060 --> 00:32:18,561

actually see in that parable there, the

773

00:32:18,561 --> 00:32:21,564

servant condemns that one who

774

00:32:21,564 --> 00:32:22,565

did that, the one who preserved.

775

00:32:22,815 --> 00:32:26,027

And so it's the same way, you know, in the

776

00:32:26,027 --> 00:32:27,779

earthly kingdoms, there's preservation.

777

00:32:28,529 --> 00:32:29,614

There's not multiplication.

778

00:32:31,199 --> 00:32:34,494

There's not, righteousness does not multiply.

779

00:32:36,037 --> 00:32:39,582

Souls do not get brought into the kingdom through

780

00:32:39,582 --> 00:32:43,294

their work because they do not have,

781

00:32:43,294 --> 00:32:44,462

it is not the plan of salvation.

782

00:32:44,504 --> 00:32:48,800

It is not the power of God to

783

00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:51,552

bring people from darkness into light.

784

00:32:52,095 --> 00:32:57,684

And so I think if you are a person who has put

785

00:32:57,684 --> 00:33:01,187

your allegiances with the US or whatever

786

00:33:01,229 --> 00:33:04,941

country that is, you should seriously think about

787

00:33:04,941 --> 00:33:07,860

that parable and the condemnation of

788

00:33:07,902 --> 00:33:12,281

those who are preserving and think of the beauty

789

00:33:12,281 --> 00:33:14,784

and the blessing of those who are actually

790

00:33:15,159 --> 00:33:18,079

redeeming or taking those talents and faithfully

791

00:33:18,079 --> 00:33:19,997

stewarding them in the way that Jesus would

792

00:33:19,997 --> 00:33:20,415

have.

793

00:33:20,873 --> 00:33:22,625

So it's actually truly a multiplication.

794

00:33:23,918 --> 00:33:25,420

And that's where, you know, that, and that's

795

00:33:25,420 --> 00:33:27,755

where obviously redemption changing from the

796

00:33:27,755 --> 00:33:29,549

heart out is where that happens.

797

00:33:30,883 --> 00:33:33,678

I think the one thing that, something I've

798

00:33:33,678 --> 00:33:35,847

thought about a lot actually, more recently,

799

00:33:36,180 --> 00:33:38,266

especially as it seems like the political

800

00:33:38,266 --> 00:33:40,643

conversations have gotten much more shrill

801

00:33:40,852 --> 00:33:41,894

and much more extreme.

802

00:33:44,188 --> 00:33:48,693

And I've wondered for all these people that I

803

00:33:48,693 --> 00:33:50,319

know are churches and so forth, the amount

804

00:33:50,403 --> 00:33:53,990

of energy, time, and resources that go into

805

00:33:53,990 --> 00:33:56,868

political campaigns and drives and things

806

00:33:56,909 --> 00:33:57,744

of that nature.

807

00:33:58,828 --> 00:34:00,413

If they would have instead invested that same

808

00:34:00,413 --> 00:34:03,791

amount of time into praying and investing

809

00:34:03,916 --> 00:34:06,544

in their local communities and helping in

810

00:34:06,544 --> 00:34:09,756

missions and doing ministry, what would have

811

00:34:09,756 --> 00:34:10,506

the impact been?

812

00:34:11,132 --> 00:34:12,842

And you can imagine just for like one church in

813

00:34:12,842 --> 00:34:15,136

one community, you can imagine some pretty

814

00:34:15,136 --> 00:34:15,803

neat things could have

815

00:34:15,803 --> 00:34:16,846

happened if it was well organized.

816

00:34:17,180 --> 00:34:19,098

Now just imagine that all across the country.

817

00:34:19,098 --> 00:34:20,892

And yeah, it makes me stop and think.

818

00:34:20,892 --> 00:34:22,518

It's just a thought experiment

819

00:34:22,518 --> 00:34:23,686

because that'll probably never happen.

820

00:34:24,103 --> 00:34:27,190

But it's this idea of what do we pour our

821

00:34:27,190 --> 00:34:29,358

energies into and choose wisely the things

822

00:34:29,358 --> 00:34:30,485

we pour our energies into.

823

00:34:31,277 --> 00:34:32,820

And you can also, you can actually look at the

824

00:34:32,820 --> 00:34:34,614

others at, or take that farther.

825

00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:36,949

So yes, there's a lot of loss of energy.

826

00:34:37,408 --> 00:34:38,451

People are putting energy

827

00:34:38,451 --> 00:34:40,620

into the earthly nation.

828

00:34:41,662 --> 00:34:42,997

And there's, as I mentioned, there's always

829

00:34:42,997 --> 00:34:43,915

plenty of people there, right?

830

00:34:44,290 --> 00:34:45,291

And so because of that, there's

831

00:34:45,291 --> 00:34:47,293

less energy going into God's kingdom.

832

00:34:47,794 --> 00:34:50,171

But also you can look at the fact too, that as

833

00:34:50,171 --> 00:34:52,799

people, as quote, Christians use power

834

00:34:52,799 --> 00:34:57,637

over, that you actually distort the gospel and

835

00:34:57,637 --> 00:34:59,013

you actually make enemies of the gospel.

836

00:35:00,097 --> 00:35:00,973

So there's backlash.

837

00:35:01,307 --> 00:35:02,475

Right, there's serious backlash.

838

00:35:02,975 --> 00:35:04,268

Which we're kind of seeing.

839

00:35:04,602 --> 00:35:05,144

Right, yeah.

840

00:35:05,394 --> 00:35:09,315

So not only are you driving people away and

841

00:35:09,315 --> 00:35:11,567

you're losing your young people because they get,

842

00:35:11,567 --> 00:35:13,319

so they see it's very hypocritical.

843

00:35:14,445 --> 00:35:16,364

You know, whether it's my friend, my atheist

844

00:35:16,364 --> 00:35:18,157

friend who saw that and said,

845

00:35:18,533 --> 00:35:20,076

that's not Jesus and walked away.

846

00:35:20,868 --> 00:35:23,830

But then seeing a group of people who are loving

847

00:35:23,830 --> 00:35:25,498

their enemies and not using power over

848

00:35:26,332 --> 00:35:30,253

saying, whoa, now that is a

849

00:35:30,253 --> 00:35:32,630

Christianity that I could follow.

850

00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:36,759

And so, and then of course there's a whole

851

00:35:36,759 --> 00:35:39,637

generation, like they say the Gen Z generation,

852

00:35:40,596 --> 00:35:43,391

is just so tired of this political fervor.

853

00:35:44,225 --> 00:35:46,143

And of course you have churches and a lot of

854

00:35:46,143 --> 00:35:48,354

pastors who are picking that mantle up and trying

855

00:35:48,354 --> 00:35:51,107

to push their people in a certain direction.

856

00:35:51,148 --> 00:35:55,403

And it actually, so there's, it's very, it runs,

857

00:35:55,778 --> 00:35:58,823

it works against their cause of righteousness

858

00:35:58,990 --> 00:35:59,824

as they see it.

859

00:36:00,074 --> 00:36:01,325

And people leave the faith,

860

00:36:01,784 --> 00:36:03,870

people are disgusted by that.

861

00:36:03,870 --> 00:36:06,247

And I think of Gary Miller's book, recent book

862

00:36:06,247 --> 00:36:09,625

that he wrote in the last two years.

863

00:36:10,877 --> 00:36:11,919

I think, is it Distracted?

864

00:36:12,670 --> 00:36:13,754

Or is it Sidetracked?

865

00:36:13,754 --> 00:36:15,006

Sidetracked, yeah, thank you.

866

00:36:15,298 --> 00:36:15,923

Yeah, very good. Thank you.

867

00:36:15,965 --> 00:36:18,634

And so yeah, and so in Gary's book, Sidetracked

868

00:36:18,634 --> 00:36:21,846

there, he helps you see how the moral majority

869

00:36:22,263 --> 00:36:25,099

and some of these movements throughout the last

870

00:36:25,099 --> 00:36:26,684

couple hundred years in America,

871

00:36:28,227 --> 00:36:29,937

the fruit of that was, it

872

00:36:29,937 --> 00:36:32,148

was not more righteousness.

873

00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:33,900

It was actually the opposite of that.

874

00:36:33,900 --> 00:36:36,485

And so now we live in America where the majority

875

00:36:36,485 --> 00:36:38,112

of people are no longer going to church.

876

00:36:38,988 --> 00:36:40,156

Now we are seeing kind of a

877

00:36:40,156 --> 00:36:41,657

quiet revival that's happening.

878

00:36:41,657 --> 00:36:42,408

I was talking with you earlier

879

00:36:42,408 --> 00:36:45,369

about that, where there is Gen Z men

880

00:36:46,245 --> 00:36:47,997

who are seeking truth.

881

00:36:47,997 --> 00:36:49,040

And we're seeing that at Sowers,

882

00:36:49,999 --> 00:36:52,543

especially in Europe, huge movement

883

00:36:52,919 --> 00:36:55,254

of people going back to church.

884

00:36:55,963 --> 00:36:57,965

And we're starting to see that here too.

885

00:36:58,674 --> 00:37:00,092

But see that's interesting though,

886

00:37:00,092 --> 00:37:01,719

if you have a movement like that,

887

00:37:02,678 --> 00:37:05,139

I mean, how many times ever, I can't think of

888

00:37:05,139 --> 00:37:06,724

any, but where it would be like a top-down,

889

00:37:07,558 --> 00:37:08,935

everybody get more religious, more

890

00:37:08,935 --> 00:37:10,102

people go to church and get saved.

891

00:37:10,311 --> 00:37:11,896

How are you going to do that from a top-down?

892

00:37:12,521 --> 00:37:13,022

You must do this.

893

00:37:13,689 --> 00:37:16,108

That's just not how Christianity works.

894

00:37:16,108 --> 00:37:20,863

It's just like, so like absolutely diametrically

895

00:37:20,863 --> 00:37:22,823

opposed to the call of Christ that says,

896

00:37:22,823 --> 00:37:23,699

"Come follow me."

897

00:37:23,699 --> 00:37:24,784

It's not like, "I'm going

898

00:37:24,784 --> 00:37:26,577

to drag you and pull you."

899

00:37:26,577 --> 00:37:28,913

So I'm trying to think of it as there ever been a

900

00:37:28,913 --> 00:37:30,998

time when that has helped bring people in church?

901

00:37:31,332 --> 00:37:33,125

But then versus what you were just describing,

902

00:37:33,125 --> 00:37:34,794

how there are some disillusionment

903

00:37:34,794 --> 00:37:36,170

and people are searching for answers

904

00:37:36,587 --> 00:37:40,549

that is a more of an organic groundswell coming

905

00:37:40,549 --> 00:37:42,426

up where you do have people that are

906

00:37:42,510 --> 00:37:43,636

asking a lot of questions.

907

00:37:43,928 --> 00:37:44,470

Yeah. They're saying, "We're not

908

00:37:44,470 --> 00:37:45,721

really sure how this thing works.

909

00:37:45,721 --> 00:37:46,931

We want to figure this out.

910

00:37:46,931 --> 00:37:47,807

And maybe I should go to church."

911

00:37:47,807 --> 00:37:48,099

Yeah.

912

00:37:48,683 --> 00:37:52,103

And I think they would say that it's been largely

913

00:37:52,103 --> 00:37:55,398

driven by people seeing that the secular

914

00:37:56,482 --> 00:37:59,318

way, the liberal, the

915

00:37:59,318 --> 00:38:05,324

secular agenda has come up wanting.

916

00:38:05,741 --> 00:38:07,076

Like it's so broken.

917

00:38:07,702 --> 00:38:10,037

It is not offering the flourishing of life that

918

00:38:10,037 --> 00:38:11,080

they said it would, right?

919

00:38:11,539 --> 00:38:13,416

And so people are saying, "So what is truth?"

920

00:38:14,250 --> 00:38:16,377

And so they are definitely seeking that, becoming

921

00:38:16,377 --> 00:38:19,755

more religious and seeking for that.

922

00:38:20,214 --> 00:38:23,259

And so it's definitely a huge opportunity in our

923

00:38:23,259 --> 00:38:25,970

time to connect with these people

924

00:38:26,512 --> 00:38:29,765

and to talk with them about Christianity, talk

925

00:38:29,765 --> 00:38:33,352

with them about the way of the historic faith,

926

00:38:33,853 --> 00:38:37,106

which is a way that of the kingdom of God that

927

00:38:37,106 --> 00:38:39,191

really appeals to people.

928

00:38:39,859 --> 00:38:41,944

As you think about an alternative society that

929

00:38:41,944 --> 00:38:46,282

they can be part of, where we can in many ways

930

00:38:46,574 --> 00:38:50,411

bring heaven, bring the way of heaven to earth

931

00:38:50,411 --> 00:38:53,706

that creates a godly, beautiful society that

932

00:38:53,706 --> 00:38:54,331

you can be part of.

933

00:38:55,291 --> 00:38:59,503

So I'm thinking practically then, you have, like

934

00:38:59,503 --> 00:39:00,838

you just mentioned, we have in the midterm

935

00:39:01,130 --> 00:39:02,298

elections just happened.

936

00:39:03,007 --> 00:39:04,383

As we're recording this, we're still in the

937

00:39:04,383 --> 00:39:06,302

government shutdown, which is interesting.

938

00:39:08,054 --> 00:39:10,056

It's just in the air, right?

939

00:39:10,139 --> 00:39:12,641

And so your neighbor is, say, strikes up a

940

00:39:12,641 --> 00:39:14,477

conversation about politics, right?

941

00:39:14,477 --> 00:39:17,730

Oh, the government, whichever side they don't

942

00:39:17,730 --> 00:39:18,981

like, is responsible for

943

00:39:18,981 --> 00:39:19,899

the shutdown or whatever.

944

00:39:20,191 --> 00:39:20,900

Just make something up.

945

00:39:21,567 --> 00:39:23,027

How can we actually engage with those

946

00:39:23,027 --> 00:39:24,612

conversations instead of the

947

00:39:24,612 --> 00:39:26,238

one of two options that come to

948

00:39:26,238 --> 00:39:29,200

mind would be, "Oh, I don't talk about that."

949

00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:31,619

Or the other is like, "Oh yeah, I agree," but

950

00:39:31,619 --> 00:39:33,287

yeah, well, we actually don't, you know,

951

00:39:33,788 --> 00:39:34,080

secret.

952

00:39:34,288 --> 00:39:35,456

We don't actually get involved either.

953

00:39:35,915 --> 00:39:38,125

Like, how do we actually engage with these things

954

00:39:38,125 --> 00:39:41,253

in a profitable manner that I think

955

00:39:41,921 --> 00:39:45,382

all of us want to help our neighbors contribute

956

00:39:45,382 --> 00:39:47,593

to our hometowns, things like that, you know,

957

00:39:47,593 --> 00:39:49,345

empower our communities in positive ways.

958

00:39:50,471 --> 00:39:51,347

What do we actually do

959

00:39:51,347 --> 00:39:54,058

practically in those kinds of situations?

960

00:39:54,850 --> 00:39:55,059

Sure.

961

00:39:55,726 --> 00:39:57,603

Well, I would, that's a good

962

00:39:57,603 --> 00:39:59,522

question and that can be quite difficult.

963

00:40:00,356 --> 00:40:04,068

I think we need to remember that, you know, we

964

00:40:04,068 --> 00:40:05,986

would assume that if you're not a Christian,

965

00:40:06,529 --> 00:40:07,363

that you would be

966

00:40:07,363 --> 00:40:08,989

involved in the political world.

967

00:40:09,949 --> 00:40:14,203

You know, in my pushing back against voting, I

968

00:40:14,203 --> 00:40:17,248

don't push back against my ungodly neighbor

969

00:40:17,289 --> 00:40:21,752

not to vote because in many ways, that's the

970

00:40:21,752 --> 00:40:23,504

kingdom he's part of, so why wouldn't he?

971

00:40:24,380 --> 00:40:25,881

So I don't try to make him quit voting.

972

00:40:26,215 --> 00:40:29,343

I try to lead him to Jesus and to his kingdom

973

00:40:29,343 --> 00:40:33,055

where he will then, you know, because of this

974

00:40:33,222 --> 00:40:36,225

experience, because this new reality, a fruit of

975

00:40:36,225 --> 00:40:37,601

that will be not voting, right?

976

00:40:37,893 --> 00:40:39,562

Not getting involved in the political world.

977

00:40:40,813 --> 00:40:44,400

And so, my only, you know, the only time I have

978

00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:46,402

more engaging conversations is with

979

00:40:46,902 --> 00:40:50,489

other Christians who are very political and

980

00:40:50,489 --> 00:40:52,700

that's where I will push back and say, "Well,

981

00:40:52,741 --> 00:40:55,536

why are you? Why are you doing that when we have

982

00:40:55,536 --> 00:40:56,704

the teachings of Jesus here?

983

00:40:58,455 --> 00:41:00,541

You know, why?" and asking those questions. But

984

00:41:00,541 --> 00:41:02,251

at the same time though,

985

00:41:02,626 --> 00:41:04,587

it definitely still is a good time for you to

986

00:41:04,587 --> 00:41:09,175

share, you know, our hope, the hope that is

987

00:41:09,383 --> 00:41:11,886

within us, but to do it, you know, with meekness,

988

00:41:11,886 --> 00:41:14,471

with fear, and always,

989

00:41:14,471 --> 00:41:15,890

you know, remembering that,

990

00:41:16,724 --> 00:41:19,727

you know, it's, we're not trying, you know, while

991

00:41:19,727 --> 00:41:20,769

a thousand men are

992

00:41:20,769 --> 00:41:21,687

slashing at the leaves of evil,

993

00:41:21,729 --> 00:41:23,230

the one striking at the root, you know, we're not

994

00:41:23,230 --> 00:41:24,398

going to slash the leaves of evil.

995

00:41:24,899 --> 00:41:29,069

We want to show him that we are praying, that we

996

00:41:29,069 --> 00:41:32,781

do pray about this, these things, but because of

997

00:41:33,365 --> 00:41:36,160

our understanding our convictions, we, you know,

998

00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:39,246

we don't get involved in these things.

999

00:41:39,914 --> 00:41:43,292

So it can be a great opportunity. Again, as I

00:41:43,292 --> 00:41:44,210

said before, our best

00:41:44,210 --> 00:41:45,419

kept secret is that we don't

00:41:45,461 --> 00:41:48,547

vote. And so oftentimes people say, you know,

00:41:49,381 --> 00:41:50,507

what kind of Christian are

00:41:50,507 --> 00:41:52,551

you? I'll explain to them,

00:41:53,636 --> 00:41:56,889

you know, a Christian that's striving to live out

00:41:56,889 --> 00:41:58,641

the faith as the early church and

00:41:59,141 --> 00:42:01,769

also the Anabaptist, you know, and the faith

00:42:01,769 --> 00:42:03,562

tradition and kind of talk about that and then

00:42:04,104 --> 00:42:07,107

kind of a reality or how we put that in the shoe

00:42:07,107 --> 00:42:10,945

leather is by totally eschewing the political

00:42:10,986 --> 00:42:13,697

world, which means we don't even vote. And that

00:42:13,697 --> 00:42:15,866

really puts some color to it fast. And they're

00:42:15,866 --> 00:42:20,079

like, Oh, and then I can really, then yes, I can

00:42:20,079 --> 00:42:22,498

really then move you into some really

00:42:23,707 --> 00:42:27,336

clarifying conversations quickly. Because that's,

00:42:27,336 --> 00:42:30,631

that's often a very new idea to them. So yeah,

00:42:30,631 --> 00:42:33,759

so great opportunity to engage with your neighbor

00:42:33,759 --> 00:42:36,345

for sure. Don't let that opportunity go past,

00:42:36,762 --> 00:42:40,182

but never, if he's not a Christian, never indict

00:42:40,182 --> 00:42:42,142

him for voting. And that's what they do

00:42:42,518 --> 00:42:45,187

and really should, because

00:42:45,187 --> 00:42:47,189

they're part of this earthly government.

00:42:48,857 --> 00:42:52,194

So that being the case, then you keep bringing it

00:42:52,194 --> 00:42:55,447

back to the earthly kingdom versus the heavenly

00:42:55,948 --> 00:42:59,285

kingdom. When Christ, we've been

00:42:59,285 --> 00:43:01,620

transferred into the kingdom of light,

00:43:01,620 --> 00:43:03,956

as Paul writes in, I think it's Colossians,

00:43:03,956 --> 00:43:05,291

right? Yes, that's right. Translated, I think,

00:43:05,332 --> 00:43:06,500

is another way of saying it.

00:43:06,500 --> 00:43:07,876

King James translated. Yeah,

00:43:08,168 --> 00:43:09,920

translated. Transferred. Yeah, transferred or

00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:11,630

translated into a new kingdom, into the kingdom

00:43:11,630 --> 00:43:15,843

of light. I love that verse. That being the case,

00:43:16,510 --> 00:43:19,054

I'm going to bring it down to present day a bit

00:43:19,054 --> 00:43:22,391

more. So would you just think, are we in danger

00:43:22,391 --> 00:43:24,560

here in America of becoming another example of

00:43:24,727 --> 00:43:26,979

Christendom? And when I say that, as in

00:43:26,979 --> 00:43:28,522

government where religion is

00:43:28,522 --> 00:43:30,024

used as an arm of state power

00:43:30,024 --> 00:43:31,608

and pressure, where the church and state are

00:43:31,608 --> 00:43:33,402

fused as a matter of power

00:43:33,402 --> 00:43:35,029

and creating policy and so

00:43:35,070 --> 00:43:36,488

forth, like Christendom, that would have been

00:43:36,488 --> 00:43:39,199

more, I guess you could think of medieval, say,

00:43:39,199 --> 00:43:41,493

church and state fusions. Sure. Yeah, what do you

00:43:41,493 --> 00:43:43,287

see there? Do you see some dangers there,

00:43:43,287 --> 00:43:44,455

and especially as it relates to

00:43:44,455 --> 00:43:46,290

our people and how we relate to that?

00:43:47,041 --> 00:43:48,709

Sure, yeah. So it's definitely unprecedented

00:43:48,709 --> 00:43:52,463

times with a Trump presidency and some of the

00:43:52,463 --> 00:43:56,467

things that he's doing. And so it's definitely

00:43:56,467 --> 00:43:58,635

the base that put him

00:43:58,635 --> 00:44:01,013

there was a large percentage

00:44:01,221 --> 00:44:05,351

was Christian that put him in office. And so I

00:44:05,351 --> 00:44:07,353

think there is definitely, I don't think a lot

00:44:07,353 --> 00:44:09,480

people have any understanding of history and what

00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:12,524

that was like. And even the idea of separation,

00:44:12,775 --> 00:44:16,904

church and state, like people are so, their eyes

00:44:16,904 --> 00:44:22,117

have been so blinded by the desire for power.

00:44:23,452 --> 00:44:26,580

That is totally just materialism and just what

00:44:26,580 --> 00:44:27,664

they think is safety.

00:44:28,999 --> 00:44:30,417

They become very xenophobic,

00:44:30,959 --> 00:44:34,088

right? And we see that across the world,

00:44:34,088 --> 00:44:36,924

actually, nations moving that direction.

00:44:37,633 --> 00:44:39,885

It's just like with all the immigration that has

00:44:39,885 --> 00:44:43,138

happened, some of the huge issues in the world,

00:44:43,138 --> 00:44:45,724

and then people becoming aware of like, "Wow, I'm

00:44:45,724 --> 00:44:47,101

living here in Sudan, but

00:44:47,101 --> 00:44:48,727

I could go up to Italy."

00:44:49,061 --> 00:44:53,107

And so they sneak out and try to get across the

00:44:53,107 --> 00:44:57,027

Mediterranean and up across because they're now

00:44:57,027 --> 00:44:59,029

aware of all these other opportunities, other

00:44:59,029 --> 00:45:00,739

places. So we live in a world where there's this

00:45:01,448 --> 00:45:03,492

knowledge about the world. And so people are

00:45:03,492 --> 00:45:05,744

trying to move in immigrants, right? Immigration.

00:45:06,370 --> 00:45:09,665

And so because of that, yeah, people become very

00:45:09,665 --> 00:45:10,999

defensive. It's all about

00:45:10,999 --> 00:45:13,710

us. And so unfortunately,

00:45:13,919 --> 00:45:18,799

within United States, sadly, many Christians have

00:45:18,799 --> 00:45:21,552

been influenced. And again, as we talked about

00:45:21,552 --> 00:45:24,638

earlier, when there's the internet, it's such a

00:45:24,638 --> 00:45:28,392

powerful tool in social media and how the

00:45:28,434 --> 00:45:31,437

algorithms just drive you, radicalize you as one.

00:45:32,146 --> 00:45:33,772

Just earlier this week, I was listening to a talk

00:45:33,772 --> 00:45:35,941

and they said, "Political polarization is

00:45:35,941 --> 00:45:37,818

effectively ripping us apart.

00:45:38,861 --> 00:45:40,529

We're being manipulated by the

00:45:40,612 --> 00:45:46,076

5% and all they want is for you to fight each

00:45:46,076 --> 00:45:49,288

other." So it's really, in many ways, a perfect

00:45:49,496 --> 00:45:55,294

storm. The idea of a "Christian nation" and that

00:45:55,294 --> 00:45:59,214

to be protected, somehow it's supposed to support

00:45:59,214 --> 00:46:01,508

Israel and whatever Israel does, we support it

00:46:01,508 --> 00:46:06,805

because, hey, Israel is supposedly, they would

00:46:06,805 --> 00:46:11,018

see it as the Israel of God. And that's a really

00:46:11,018 --> 00:46:12,978

hot button when you just touch on right there.

00:46:12,978 --> 00:46:16,148

That dispensationalism there is just in the water

00:46:16,148 --> 00:46:17,608

of conservative Christians.

00:46:18,066 --> 00:46:19,568

Especially right now, with the

00:46:19,568 --> 00:46:21,612

current war in Israel and Gaza.

00:46:21,862 --> 00:46:25,157

Yeah, you have the whole very terrible thing that

00:46:25,157 --> 00:46:27,618

happened there in October, what is it,

00:46:27,618 --> 00:46:28,619

two years ago, three years ago?

00:46:28,619 --> 00:46:29,203

Yeah, two years ago.

00:46:29,203 --> 00:46:32,289

Two years ago. Obviously, terrible things have

00:46:32,289 --> 00:46:36,585

went on there. So you have all these things that

00:46:36,585 --> 00:46:42,007

are pushing all the right buttons. And so people

00:46:42,007 --> 00:46:47,262

are being drawn into these things. And so

00:46:47,971 --> 00:46:50,641

because of all these, this perfect storm, if you

00:46:50,641 --> 00:46:55,521

will, there's definitely a movement in that

00:46:55,521 --> 00:46:59,983

direction. Now, will this strong movement create

00:46:59,983 --> 00:47:02,069

as strong of an opposite movement?

00:47:03,111 --> 00:47:08,367

That polarization. We just see this Zohran Mamdani,

00:47:09,743 --> 00:47:12,704

which is the Muslim man who became mayor.

00:47:13,372 --> 00:47:16,833

And he's a socialist Democrat,

00:47:17,042 --> 00:47:18,627

right? So the opposite of Trump.

00:47:19,503 --> 00:47:22,381

So it's almost like you pull one hard, this way,

00:47:22,381 --> 00:47:23,715

and one then the opposite, it's just going to happen.

00:47:23,715 --> 00:47:25,092

Right. So it's that polarization that is

00:47:25,092 --> 00:47:26,677

effectively ripping us apart.

00:47:26,927 --> 00:47:28,554

Like our social fabric has been

00:47:28,554 --> 00:47:32,057

ripped apart. I don't know. So without, I'm not

00:47:32,057 --> 00:47:35,727

sure what the future will hold for United States,

00:47:36,562 --> 00:47:38,564

but we're definitely in a

00:47:38,564 --> 00:47:40,774

heading in, not in a good direction.

00:47:41,567 --> 00:47:44,027

It does seem like there's a lot more religious

00:47:44,027 --> 00:47:46,905

language being woven into the political speech.

00:47:46,905 --> 00:47:47,155

Yes.

00:47:47,447 --> 00:47:49,866

More than that. I could be, I'm just remembering

00:47:49,866 --> 00:47:51,785

it wrong or something, but it just seems a little

00:47:51,785 --> 00:47:55,998

strange, like more so. And I don't know, it could

00:47:55,998 --> 00:47:58,000

be because just this year at the time of this

00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:00,335

recording, we did the documentary series on the

00:48:00,335 --> 00:48:01,712

first hundred years of the Anabaptist movement

00:48:01,878 --> 00:48:05,215

and how that started. And one of the fundamental

00:48:05,215 --> 00:48:07,968

breaking points for them was saying the city

00:48:07,968 --> 00:48:10,262

council, the government does not get to decide

00:48:10,262 --> 00:48:12,055

what is theologically

00:48:12,055 --> 00:48:13,348

correct. Like that just makes

00:48:13,390 --> 00:48:15,517

zero sense that they could decide what the Bible

00:48:15,517 --> 00:48:19,062

says. We can just read the Bible, which was a

00:48:19,062 --> 00:48:21,565

totally novel concept at the time. I didn't know

00:48:21,565 --> 00:48:23,650

that until we researched it. But that's where

00:48:23,650 --> 00:48:25,485

ultimately in that case, at least where

00:48:25,485 --> 00:48:27,362

Christendom led to was

00:48:27,362 --> 00:48:28,864

church and state had been so fused

00:48:28,905 --> 00:48:32,075

together. Government was making laws based on

00:48:32,075 --> 00:48:35,162

Christian theology and vice versa and just got so

00:48:35,203 --> 00:48:37,205

crazy muddled. And now you're burning people

00:48:37,205 --> 00:48:39,958

alive for this stuff. And

00:48:39,958 --> 00:48:41,209

it was kind of weird. I'm not

00:48:41,209 --> 00:48:42,836

saying that's what's going to happen, but it's

00:48:42,836 --> 00:48:43,587

just like, wow, that was

00:48:43,587 --> 00:48:44,963

really messy. When do you

00:48:45,213 --> 00:48:48,050

go down that road? Yeah. Well, as you're saying

00:48:48,050 --> 00:48:51,345

that, I'm thinking two, just in the last month

00:48:51,345 --> 00:48:55,766

and a half with Charlie Kirk being killed, which

00:48:55,766 --> 00:48:58,393

was a horrible thing that happened there.

00:48:58,894 --> 00:49:02,064

What was very revealing, I really hadn't followed

00:49:02,064 --> 00:49:04,608

Charlie Kirk. What's interesting though is that

00:49:04,608 --> 00:49:07,736

Gen Z people around me were listening to him some

00:49:07,736 --> 00:49:10,739

because, well, he was appealing to young people,

00:49:10,739 --> 00:49:13,617

right? Yeah. And so if you're a young person and

00:49:13,617 --> 00:49:16,495

you listen to YouTube at all or any other social

00:49:16,495 --> 00:49:19,873

media of any sort, guess what? And you're a

00:49:19,873 --> 00:49:21,625

conservative "Christian," you listen to some

00:49:21,625 --> 00:49:24,044

of that. YouTube's going to offer that up to you.

00:49:24,503 --> 00:49:27,506

And so in our circles, there's young people

00:49:27,547 --> 00:49:31,843

were and are listening to him, to Charlie Kirk.

00:49:33,553 --> 00:49:35,180

And then you have at his funeral,

00:49:35,597 --> 00:49:38,558

you have all the heads of state speaking and

00:49:38,558 --> 00:49:40,769

using very distinct

00:49:40,769 --> 00:49:43,814

Christian language. And to me,

00:49:43,814 --> 00:49:46,900

that was definitely very revealing of where we

00:49:46,900 --> 00:49:51,029

are. I did not, I didn't follow that world close

00:49:51,154 --> 00:49:55,200

enough to totally see all those things, but in a

00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:59,663

crisis moment like that, that's when the veil

00:49:59,663 --> 00:50:01,998

gets pulled back. It's like it creates clarity.

00:50:02,791 --> 00:50:06,962

And I think we saw there, wow, there were people

00:50:07,546 --> 00:50:11,341

who are heads of state who are using very

00:50:11,341 --> 00:50:14,511

distinct Christian language

00:50:14,511 --> 00:50:16,388

to back up who they are and

00:50:16,430 --> 00:50:18,765

what they're doing. To back up their position.

00:50:19,015 --> 00:50:20,809

And I think that would be a very clear argument

00:50:20,809 --> 00:50:26,106

for there is an attempt to take us back to this

00:50:26,106 --> 00:50:28,066

quote, Christendom that you're talking about.

00:50:28,692 --> 00:50:32,779

Almost like religious language being used almost

00:50:32,779 --> 00:50:35,323

for gaining some political points too,

00:50:35,323 --> 00:50:38,034

you could almost argue or mixing it with the

00:50:38,034 --> 00:50:42,164

political air. It was all mixed into one giant

00:50:42,164 --> 00:50:43,874

package. I mean, you couldn't separate it

00:50:43,874 --> 00:50:45,834

practically. Yeah. So Charlie Kirk, definitely.

00:50:45,876 --> 00:50:51,089

I would want to say was co-opted was, and his

00:50:51,089 --> 00:50:54,009

funeral was co-opted by the powers that be

00:50:55,385 --> 00:50:56,261

for their agenda.

00:50:57,429 --> 00:50:58,889

Absolutely. Which is very unfortunate.

00:51:00,849 --> 00:51:04,478

Yeah. This is where it gets incredibly messy

00:51:04,478 --> 00:51:06,146

because when you start mixing those two

00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:09,191

together, it's like, okay, where does the

00:51:09,191 --> 00:51:11,693

religion end and the politics start? Or like,

00:51:12,652 --> 00:51:15,322

which bits are actually Christian and what bits

00:51:15,322 --> 00:51:18,992

are just American idealism or maybe a weird

00:51:19,367 --> 00:51:22,496

mutation of the two? Or I don't know. And you get

00:51:22,496 --> 00:51:24,831

into some really bizarre places. Again,

00:51:25,165 --> 00:51:29,169

go read some history and this has not ended well.

00:51:29,669 --> 00:51:31,797

And I mean, if you want to do history,

00:51:32,255 --> 00:51:33,965

even the founding fathers saying like, "Hey,

00:51:33,965 --> 00:51:35,300

maybe church and state should be separate."

00:51:36,343 --> 00:51:39,346

And so there's something to that perhaps. And

00:51:39,346 --> 00:51:40,889

obviously we're not saying the same thing,

00:51:40,931 --> 00:51:42,599

the founding fathers are. I think the approach

00:51:42,599 --> 00:51:44,559

you're offering is very different. But

00:51:44,893 --> 00:51:48,605

that's part of the historical process that got us

00:51:48,605 --> 00:51:51,274

to this point. Yeah, it just makes me kind of

00:51:51,441 --> 00:51:52,984

wonder. I don't know. When you're seeing

00:51:52,984 --> 00:51:56,696

religion, especially the teachings of Jesus,

00:51:57,489 --> 00:52:00,659

being used to score political points to gain more

00:52:00,659 --> 00:52:03,995

power, that's like the opposite of what Jesus did

00:52:03,995 --> 00:52:06,289

while he was here. Right. Like if you look at his

00:52:06,289 --> 00:52:08,083

sermons, there's even points where it's like,

00:52:08,083 --> 00:52:09,960

the disciples are like, "Whoa, why are you even

00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:12,087

saying this? Everybody's leaving." Because you're

00:52:12,587 --> 00:52:15,632

talk about not using his message to gain popular

00:52:15,632 --> 00:52:19,427

opinion and gain power. It's just it's not there

00:52:19,970 --> 00:52:23,014

in his life at all. Yes. And we're like, kind of

00:52:23,014 --> 00:52:24,641

got that backwards now. It seems to me.

00:52:25,684 --> 00:52:30,605

Yeah. May God help us. I would say that in no way

00:52:30,605 --> 00:52:33,108

do we want to sit here somehow saying that

00:52:33,149 --> 00:52:36,653

we've never been caught up with this. It is very

00:52:36,653 --> 00:52:38,655

appealing. I find it quite appealing

00:52:39,948 --> 00:52:42,742

to my own flesh. And so we're definitely in a

00:52:42,742 --> 00:52:45,078

spiritual battle here. We're never going to do

00:52:45,078 --> 00:52:49,040

it perfectly, live out God's kingdom. But we

00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:51,293

definitely need to order our lives according

00:52:51,376 --> 00:52:55,755

to the teachings of Jesus. As someone has said,

00:52:56,298 --> 00:52:57,048

today's contemporary

00:52:57,048 --> 00:52:59,259

church is John 3 16 for God's

00:52:59,301 --> 00:53:02,470

love of the world. But the John 3:16 of the early

00:53:02,470 --> 00:53:04,639

church was Matthew 5:44,

00:53:05,098 --> 00:53:08,310

"Love your enemies and pray for those who do evil

00:53:08,310 --> 00:53:12,147

against you." And so, yeah. So we live in a very,

00:53:13,023 --> 00:53:16,276

a Christianity that looks very different than the

00:53:16,276 --> 00:53:20,113

historical faith. And so we would do ourselves

00:53:20,196 --> 00:53:22,824

well to continue to look at the early

00:53:22,824 --> 00:53:24,618

Anaaptists. We're in the

00:53:24,618 --> 00:53:25,827

500th year anniversary here.

00:53:26,328 --> 00:53:29,331

Very, not all of them, they were definitely

00:53:29,331 --> 00:53:31,207

human, very human, a

00:53:31,207 --> 00:53:32,292

couple of crazy movements there.

00:53:32,709 --> 00:53:35,128

But for the most part, they were a people who

00:53:35,128 --> 00:53:37,422

deeply believed that we

00:53:37,422 --> 00:53:39,049

are called to follow Jesus,

00:53:39,507 --> 00:53:42,510

to believe every word He said, and they lived it

00:53:42,510 --> 00:53:44,137

out. Of course, into the early church,

00:53:44,888 --> 00:53:47,891

we need the people who are rooted in history. So

00:53:47,891 --> 00:53:52,395

we can then give a clear defense, sound the

00:53:52,479 --> 00:53:57,025

trumpet clearly to our families, to ourselves, to

00:53:57,025 --> 00:53:59,069

our families, to our churches, and to our

00:53:59,069 --> 00:54:02,364

communities on what it really looks like, how we

00:54:02,364 --> 00:54:05,951

should as a church, as a people, as a society,

00:54:05,951 --> 00:54:09,162

as a nation live out His calling in our lives.

00:54:10,914 --> 00:54:12,415

Yeah, because you see that with the early

00:54:12,415 --> 00:54:17,045

Christians, it's like they showed that verse that

00:54:17,045 --> 00:54:19,339

you mentioned, right? "Love your enemies." They

00:54:19,381 --> 00:54:23,134

lived it by being thrown to the lions. Right. And

00:54:23,134 --> 00:54:25,887

through that, through that persecution and that

00:54:25,929 --> 00:54:28,056

death, they died so well. And the early

00:54:28,056 --> 00:54:30,183

Anaptists did the same thing for the most part.

00:54:31,017 --> 00:54:37,899

They went to their death singing or praying, just

00:54:37,899 --> 00:54:38,650

as Jesus did on the

00:54:38,650 --> 00:54:40,568

cross, right? And through that,

00:54:40,568 --> 00:54:44,114

as someone said, martyrdom was the evangelism

00:54:44,114 --> 00:54:46,783

strategy of the early church. And they died

00:54:46,908 --> 00:54:49,494

together. They died with such dignity and loving

00:54:49,494 --> 00:54:51,204

their enemies. And people were like,

00:54:51,913 --> 00:54:54,833

"They're not afraid of death. I want to know what

00:54:54,833 --> 00:54:58,336

that is." Because every person, every human,

00:54:58,920 --> 00:55:03,800

is afraid of death in their natural flesh. So

00:55:03,800 --> 00:55:07,679

maybe if we were to wrap all this package up,

00:55:08,179 --> 00:55:11,933

it would be go back to what Jesus teaches, like

00:55:11,933 --> 00:55:14,728

go read His words and say, "How did He live?" And

00:55:14,728 --> 00:55:17,564

how should we live? And what does it actually

00:55:17,564 --> 00:55:20,108

look like to love our enemies? Like for real,

00:55:20,108 --> 00:55:22,527

not just say it, but actually, would you be

00:55:22,527 --> 00:55:24,029

willing to get thrown to the lions for it

00:55:24,320 --> 00:55:27,240

as the early Christians? Where, I mean, we'd all

00:55:27,240 --> 00:55:29,159

like to say, "Yeah, absolutely." It's like,

00:55:29,409 --> 00:55:32,203

"I don't know. Would I? Would I actually be

00:55:32,203 --> 00:55:34,539

willing to go to that that far for loving my

00:55:34,539 --> 00:55:36,374

enemies and not fight back and not try to seize

00:55:36,374 --> 00:55:39,085

power for myself?" Which is exactly what politics

00:55:39,335 --> 00:55:44,090

is all about, seizing power and control. That's

00:55:44,090 --> 00:55:46,384

what earthly kingdoms do. Yeah.

00:55:46,885 --> 00:55:49,679

Yeah, amen. May God help us there, Reagan, in

00:55:49,679 --> 00:55:54,142

that definitely the thought of death scares me.

00:55:54,893 --> 00:55:57,729

But we know that God gives grace for those times

00:55:57,729 --> 00:56:01,441

and that we can actually... There's much power.

00:56:01,441 --> 00:56:03,568

The power of heaven is on our side. We're more

00:56:03,568 --> 00:56:06,529

than conquerors through Christ. And those things

00:56:06,613 --> 00:56:09,699

should give us peace when we consider what could

00:56:09,699 --> 00:56:12,786

be or what could be for our children. Definitely

00:56:12,994 --> 00:56:15,914

times look quite uncertain in the future. In the

00:56:15,914 --> 00:56:18,041

meantime, I had this quote, In the meantime,

00:56:18,041 --> 00:56:20,335

for how we can live, Brian Zhand, he wrote the

00:56:20,335 --> 00:56:22,170

book. He'd written a number of books, but

00:56:23,046 --> 00:56:26,091

one of the latest books is, Beauty Will [Save]

00:56:26,091 --> 00:56:29,135

the World. And as Christians, we are to

00:56:29,135 --> 00:56:34,099

show compassion and kindness. So while many

00:56:34,099 --> 00:56:35,558

people are showing hate

00:56:35,558 --> 00:56:38,228

and anger and polarization,

00:56:39,395 --> 00:56:42,440

we should be those who stand in the center and do

00:56:42,440 --> 00:56:44,400

not contribute to that, but try to absorb that,

00:56:44,859 --> 00:56:47,779

try to mediate that, and try to deescalate that

00:56:47,779 --> 00:56:52,158

by the ways of Jesus. And he says this,

00:56:52,909 --> 00:56:55,787

"Christianity in its proper form is a

00:56:55,787 --> 00:56:59,582

transcendent beauty. The story of Jesus' life,

00:57:00,166 --> 00:57:03,336

death, and resurrection is not only the greatest

00:57:03,336 --> 00:57:06,798

story ever told, but is also the most beautiful

00:57:06,840 --> 00:57:10,385

story ever told." So may God give us grace to live

00:57:10,385 --> 00:57:14,889

out beautiful lives, lives that are alight,

00:57:15,765 --> 00:57:20,687

or just as the conscience is the body. The

00:57:20,687 --> 00:57:22,188

churches of the world are a

00:57:22,188 --> 00:57:24,858

light in these dark times.

00:57:26,985 --> 00:57:29,028

If you found this episode with Bryant interesting,

00:57:29,237 --> 00:57:30,947

you should check out this interview we did with

00:57:30,947 --> 00:57:33,658

Merle Burkholder, where he describes how we can

00:57:33,658 --> 00:57:36,619

serve our culture and community, even when we

00:57:36,619 --> 00:57:39,038

don't vote and aren't involved in politics. And

00:57:39,038 --> 00:57:40,415

you can find that link in the description down below.

00:57:40,999 --> 00:57:43,668

If you enjoyed this podcast, be sure

00:57:43,668 --> 00:57:46,045

to subscribe on your favorite podcast app,

00:57:46,337 --> 00:57:48,214

and we'll catch you in the next episode.