Hi and welcome to the Animal Welfare Junction. This is your host Dr. G and our music is written and produced by Mike Sullivan. I want to apologize to our listeners because I have not put anything out in about six weeks. It's been crazy six weeks, but we are back and we have a great guest today. We have Dr. Adam Stern, Professor of Forensic Pathology at the University of Florida and founder of the International Society for Animal Forensic Science. So I'm really honored to have you as a guest today, Dr. Stern. So thank you for taking the time and welcome to the junction.

Well, thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here. I actually listened to a couple of your talks earlier this week. Uh, so I like what you're doing and I'm glad to be a part of it.

Thank you. Thank you so much. So let's start, you know, I know a little bit about you, but our listeners may not know who you are. So let's start by letting our listeners know about how you got started and the path that brought you to where you are today.

Sure. Well, I have a non traditional path of sort of how I became a veterinarian. You know, we talked to most veterinarians, veterinary students, and they all wanted to be a veterinarian since they were born or two years old. That wasn't my dream, right? I, I went to, uh, college and I actually, when I was there, uh, was interested in counterterrorism. That was, that was a thing that I wanted to do. Um, but my college advisors didn't really, um, think that was a, a good idea. Um, and so they really pushed me in another direction and, and, and that's how I figured out I, I, I like biology, veterinary medicine sounded interesting. Um, and, and so that's how I got there. I just, You know, never worked in the veterinarian's office until till college. So I didn't really know what I was getting into. And it wasn't until, you know, going through vet school, you're like, well, I like horses, but I don't want to work on horses. Zoo animals are cool, but I don't want to work on zoo animals. Um, and so I made my way to, um, so the, the, the back services, so like radiology, pathology, things like that. And then I decided pathology was really where I wanted to go. So I kind of got there in a, in a non traditional direction. Uh, but you know, I look back at it and I'm like, I guess I made all the right choices to get to where I am today. So I'm not complaining.

Yeah. I think that everything kind of happens for a reason, right? Hey, because I think that, I mean, you're doing great things there. And I joke with my staff that you're going to be my boss someday. So in like four or five years, watch out for my resume because I'm coming. I just really, I just, uh, you know, and we're going to talk a little bit about the services that you guys do, but I have used your services and I think it's, it's a great benefit, not just to veterinarians in forensics, but just humane officers, animal control officers. law enforcement. So, um, yeah. So thank you for sharing what you have done. And now we'll start with our topic. So we're going to be talking about poisonings and starvation that can be somewhat difficult topics. So for our listeners, if this is hard for you to listen, hit the pause button, focus on something else for a bit, and then you can come back. Um, let's start with talking about poisoning. So in my experience, most pet owners, when I was in general practice, most people that came in claiming that the neighbor killed the dog or the cat and that it was poison, very few of those actually, I can't even think of any of them that were true that the that the neighbor did poison it. Um, what is your experience with with that?

So, yeah, Poisoning cases in general, they, they kind of present non specifically and sometimes they're not poisoning at all, right? Like you said, a lot of them are, are not. There's a natural process, but it kind of unexpected demise of the animal. Um, but you still have to look into it and, and, you know, consider it as a, a differential. Uh, in my experience, uh, we actually are, are doing a lot of retrospective work and we have found that the neighbor sometimes does do it. Uh, you know, it really does happen. Uh, but again, that's not, that's not the commonality. A lot of times it's, it's, it's something else. Um, but they're, they're really difficult cases to handle. You really have to invest a lot of time and honestly, a lot of money, um, to really figure out, you know, what the poison is, if it actually was a poison in the first place.

Yeah, most of the poisonings that I saw were what we thought primarily accidental, right, like rat poison or ethylene glycol, that kind of stuff, but one of the things that I think people have a misconception, and it's probably because of the CSI effect, is that they think that something is poison, and then just Send blood to the lab and see what, you know, they expect to see the graph and say, yeah, this is what happened. So, what is the, what is the truth as far as what it actually takes to find out what poisons may be in a, in a dog or a cat?

Yeah, so you're, you're absolutely right. That CSI effect, you know, I always, I always talk about, you know, you have this 45 minutes to, you know, watch that, that detective show, that crime scene show. And in about 30 seconds, they put the sample in the machine, it turned around and it prints out and voila, you got your, you got your answer. Uh, so far from the truth. It's really just not even funny. Um, when we look for, for toxins. Uh, there's a plethora of different, um, analytical techniques that one can use. We have GCMS, LCMS, we have, uh, immunoassays for screening these cases, uh, but there is no one test that fits all poisons and toxins. Uh, heavy metals are going to be identified differently than say, uh, ethylene glycol, which will be different than organophosphate. So, uh, we really have to consider. Uh, so much more than just the, here's the blood sample or a blood might not be, uh, the best, um, substance to even test, uh, you know, if it's a more of a chronic intoxication, um, in the live animal, you're probably gonna be looking at urine, right? A little blood test. The toxins probably not circulating in the blood anymore. It's probably been deposited in all the organs. And so we have to really consider when the intoxication happened. Um, you know, same thing. If it's per acute, animal literally eat something and drops dead. Um, we're not gonna be looking at urine. We really want to look at the vomit or the stomach content. So again, you have to think about the clinical picture. Uh, in my case, the autopsy findings and then, you know, what our list is of differentials for the toxin and then the test itself. So lots, lots more than just, you know, 30 seconds on TV.

Yeah, no, absolutely. And what, what is the importance as far as like the history that people give you?

So the history, it's, it's important because say like the pet owner, right? They, they know their animals really well. Um, and I had a case recently where, uh, the owner basically said I was able to pet the cat and he said, that is completely abnormal. That cat would never let me touch it. And now I can pet it. And then unfortunately it, it died shortly thereafter. Um, but even subtle signs like that can be mean a lot, doesn't say what it was, but it kinds of starts to give us clues like this animal is not doing well or, you know, abnormalities. But the history is important, but you also have to look at the clinical picture. The history can be kind of, you know, kind of saying, Oh, it's a screaming, uh, a malicious poisoning case or something like that. But then when you start to actually look at the animal, you're like, well, no, that's really not what's going on. So use that history for sort of initial guidance, but then you have to let our science, veterinary medicine, uh, really put us in that direction of, of which fork in the road, which differentials we need to consider.

Yeah, I had, uh, I had a case where a lady brought in a cat and she said that the neighbor poisoned the cat because the cat was fine and then the cat was stumbling and acting drunk and then it died. And when she brought it in on necropsy, it actually had a urethral obstruction. So, it was blocked and the changes that it underwent from the toxins are very similar to what some people would expect that an animal that was poisoned would look like. So, can you share some of the cases that you have worked on with toxins and how you have worked through them?

Yeah, sure. I mean, the, the, the case that you're presenting right there, the urethral obstruction, I mean, that, that history, it's obviously ethylene glycol, antifreeze ingestion. Um, and we see, we see a lot of that. Um, so we, we actually do a lot of research and some of the research we do is on, on how to, um, more readily document those cases and, um, actually doing, uh, postmortem chemistry to, um, estimate antemortem blood values for like BUN and creatinine. Um, and so we're doing all of that, but that's, that's, I would say, um, for us, for, um, probably the most common one that we see, um, readily available for, for people to, um, have at their house, whether it's intentional or accidental, that's out of the realm of the veterinary forensic pathologist. We just say, this is what it is. And then the investigator, you know, Goes and does their part of the investigation. So they're going to be the ones who are going to be looking more into that. Um, but that's quite common. That's actually really easy for us to, to diagnose. Um, and we, we do that a lot. Um, then you get into some of the things like the anticoagulants again, something that you would see. Then you get into more difficult ones, such as the illicit drugs. Um, you know, whether an animal is fed, um, a laced meatball, you know, some sort of food material. Um, once we start seeing things, we asked the clinician, the owner, uh, what What do you feed the animal? We always ask those sorts of questions on our, on our submission forms because we look at the stomach contents and you're like, well, you say this is what you fed, but you have this in your stomach. Um, so that doesn't match. And so that might be a little clue, uh, to go down some of these more sort of acute per acute. Intoxication. And so, uh, illicit drugs would be one. Um, uh, pesticides, insecticides would be another. Typically, they cause rapid death. Um, the animal doesn't linger on for days. Typically, they eat it. Um, and they get pretty sick really fast and you just find them deceased in their backyard or wherever they would have been. Um, so, you know, I think we see a lot of different things but uh, again, tailoring what we see. With our sciences, uh, really help us.

I know that also in clinical practice when animals, especially dogs, would have like vomiting or diarrhea and the owner was not sure, people would always blame it on the control, like weed control and, uh, fertilizer and that kind of stuff. So is there any truth as far as the toxicity level of just stuff that's spread out in the yard to treat the yard?

Yeah, so we've, we've, we've worked on a number of those, those kinds of cases where there's some lawn stuff put down and then the dog is sick shortly thereafter, or, you know, within a couple of days, um, and, and really to my experience is a lot of those animals have some other disease that was. Subclinical asymptomatic and it started to rear its its ugly head at that point. Um, and then there's others where unfortunately um, you know, we we don't find any Gross findings at autopsy. We, we do a histology looking at the tissues and we don't see anything. And then we offer up doing some toxicology analysis. And, um, again, because it comes down to finances, um, people just don't go that next step. And so probably some of those cases do have, um, some validity, but I think a lot of times it comes down to finances. And it just doesn't get fully, uh, worked up.

Another thing that people get concerned about is what you brought up as far as asking people what they feed their dog. It's about potential toxins in the food. Um, how often, how often do you see that?

Uh, well, in our lab, we actually, we don't get a lot of those cases. Um, they, they seem to, there's different mechanisms, um, reporting these to the, the, the federal government where they go through, uh, some of those other channels. Um, we've seen a few. A lot of times it's going to be more of the Bacterial contamination might be in there, maybe a salmonella or, uh, some other bacteria, but we honestly just don't, we just don't see a lot of them.

If somebody is concerned, especially like a veterinarian, if somebody thinks that an animal has been, uh, poisoned, what are going to be the best samples to take and submit and how they're going to go about doing that?

Yeah. So you, you have a difference between the live animal and deceased animal, uh, because the samples we can get are, are, are obviously vastly different. Um, but you have to think about, is it an acute intoxication or is it more of a chronic, did it happen? You know, days ago. Uh, so with the acute intoxications, and this is not an exhaustive list, you have to think about things, uh, where the toxins going to be, so vomit. Okay, that's going to be a good place. Um, gastric contents, uh, goes along with the vomit, uh, blood, because if you inject, ingest it, it's going to go into circulation. And so we want to get things that are earlier on. Um, if it's cutaneous contact, like something is put on the animal, then, then obviously for skin from that area would be, would be useful. Um, In the more chronic cases, again, it's going to be more of what's in the organs and sort of downstream to that. So, uh, urine for a live animal, even feces, sometimes, uh, it's going to be excreted in the feces as well as the urine. So that's potentially a way to get it. Uh, with the autopsy, it's sort of the same, the same thought process. If it's acute, we go for the, the bloods, the, the stomach contents, um, and even liver, um, it's cause it's going to be likely metabolized in the liver or in the kidneys, and then for the more chronic, we do organs as well as the urine. So it kind of, again, just kind of depends. Um, but then you also want to collect other samples because maybe that drug, um, or toxin is maybe, um, likes a lot of fat. And so we always collect some sort of fatty tissues. Um, and really just a wide array of tissues just in case, um, we were dealing with some sort of odd situation.

I just finished the Forensic Science Masters at the University of Florida, and one of the things that they tell us also about collection is the vitreous fluid inside of the eye. Is that something that is done in animals as well?

So yeah, so we do do that. It's good for like in livestock, for example, testing for nitrates and nitrites for cattle, sort of the acute intoxication for them. So yes, we do it. Uh, we can detect a number of different drugs in it. Um, even, uh, looking at the human side, they use vitreous, uh, for a bunch of different drugs, so that is definitely something that you can collect and in our lab, we use it for vitreous chemistry, um, which I kind of alluded to earlier with, uh, the antifreeze cases, um, because you can look at things such as vitreous urea nitrogen, you could look at the electrolytes a little bit, um, some just go up. With post mortem change, so like potassium, so it's not really going to help you to estimate what it was in a live animal, um, and even glucose levels, uh, so we can identify theoretically, uh, a diabetic animal with a massively elevated glucose levels. So, um, you can use it for toxins, but you can also use it just for sort of general, um, health of the animal.

Is there any, um, time limit or time frame that the samples have to be done before you cannot get any information. Or is the information stay there for a really long period of time?

So that's a, it's a great question. Um, and it depends. Uh, some, some compounds will break down pretty quickly. Their half lives are pretty short where others, they last forever. Um, and I don't mean literally forever. That breakdown takes them a very long time. Uh, there was a study looking at, uh, panel Barbara tall. And they were looking at composting of, of pigs. And there was also, I believe, a study in horses, and they found that that stuff lasted for years, um, lasted in the decomposed remains lasted in the soil. So some of these toxins, uh, potentially can be there for, for really long times. And we see the issues when, um, maybe a dog digs up a buried horse carcass and gets intoxicated. So that we could detect really easily in, in pretty decomposed remains where some other toxins, um, you have to get to them much faster. Like ethylene glycol. Um, you need to get that really early in the phase because it's going to be metabolized and excreted and you're just not going to find it in the body.

Is there a cool case that you have worked recently of toxicity that you can share with us?

um honestly, I I really like the antifreeze cases. Um Not because they're they're relatively straightforward. I just think they are um one of these cases where you know, you get the accidents, but then There are truly In here in Florida, a lot of malicious cases. Um, and so being able to identify and document those cases, um, it's really rewarding because there's, there's a high chance that the end result will result in a prosecution if, if it's determined to be malicious. Um, and so it's really straightforward. Easy to, um, present that to a court, to a jury, um, for them to understand. I like the, the challenges though, of some of these unusual cases like organophosphates, um, and the carbamates, uh, because those, those cases, um, you do the autopsy and you just, you just don't see, you just don't see anything. There's really no pathology. And so you have to start that sort of treasure hunt of find that toxin and find that poison. Um, they're expensive, uh, to, to do that because you, you typically, you're like, well, what do I do? And so you could do a shotgun approach and just kind of just do, um, some random testing, or you can just start to go a bit more specific. Um, and so. It'll depend on the case, obviously. But if you have three, four or five animals who, um, all of a sudden they're happy and healthy and then they're dead, um, then, you know, the, the stakes are kind of a bit higher, uh, because it's, you know, definitely, um, screaming poison, uh, in, in a lot of those cases, so. You know, you can do that. And then, uh, barbiturate toxicity is also something that really interests me. And we are doing, uh, some research, um, not only for deceased animals, but also, um, living animals, and we're, we're trying to develop, um, or work up a way, um, to diagnose it in the live animals so that they can get, uh, a more timely diagnosis and, uh. Tailored treatment to that. Um, so a lot of it's just gonna be symptomatic care. Uh, but kind of help with the getting that diagnosis a bit quicker.

So let's jump into starvation cases. Um, I've had the opportunity to work with a couple of starvation cases that actually resulted in the death of the animal, but most of the starvation cases are going to be like neglect, cruelty, hoarding cases where the animals are still alive and you kind of manage those really, really different. So let's start with the live animals. What, what determines if an animal has been starved as far as the, the findings, the physical examination findings, the body condition, that kind of stuff.

Yeah. So, so obviously I'm, I'm the pathologist, so I don't treat things that have a heartbeat, right. Uh, uh, but. You know, I mean, they're, they're going to look the same, the, the, they're going to be obviously emaciated. And it's really important for you to do your, your body condition scores and your muscle scoring, uh, because these animals are going to be losing fat, uh, initially, um, and really only in the end does that, does that protein catabolism really. Um, go into high gear. Um, but besides that, I think the, the biggest thing is it's actually on, it's on the investigator really at the very beginning, um, to be sure that, you know, at the scene, um, you, you capture obviously that scene with photography and all that, but don't just go and give the dog a treat. Um, you know, don't just give them some water, uh, because you have to be sure you, you get that on video, you know, the first time to get food, the first time to get water, um, so that you can show, look, Hey, I just grabbed this stuff out of my truck and the dog just ate it. Um, because a lot of times you see, um, in these cases, the, uh, defense is always, well, I tried feeding them. Um, I gave them. All this great high quality food, or, you know, this crap food or whatever it might be, and the dog just wouldn't eat it. But now we have on video, look, we just randomly gave a small amount of food and they ate it ravenously. So I think that's really important and actually really helpful information for the veterinarian. Because in the, the diagnosis of starvation is really a diagnosis of exclusion. Yeah, you really go down the fact that, look, there's, there's nothing else wrong with them. These animals are, do not exhibit cachexia, which is, you know, that, that same sort of emaciated condition, but for very different reasons, they are, they're sick. They have a systemic disease or even one organ is affected, but the animal is is really sick, like chronic renal disease. So I think, um, really, with those cases, it's the job of the veterinarian to just prove that there's no other disease. So, you know, doing. Uh, blood work, fecal exams, and yes, you're probably going to find some parasites in them, uh, because of the conditions, but it's not going to typically rise to that level unless you have a massive parasite infection. Um, so doing your basic workup, um, and, you know, getting rid of differentials will really back you into the starvation by exogenous circumstances.

Yeah, that's a great point. There was, uh, several years ago, there was a humane officer, it was well over 80 dogs that they rescued from, uh, from a starvation case. And, well, a neglect case. And I want to say it was a dog fighting case, but I don't remember. But the owner said that the dogs could not gain weight because they had a genetic problem. So, you know, that was kind of like the defense. So the officer, the investigative officer called me and he's like, how am I going to prove that these dogs don't have this genetic condition? And I told him, just feed them, just

feed them

and then see if they gain weight. And if they gain weight, then it's not genetic. And he, and it's such a simple answer that you just don't think about. And they fed them and the dogs fattened up and then that was the end of that. So it was a pretty simple solution to, uh, what, what seemed to be a difficult question.

Yeah, and that, and that brings up another good point is you're going to want to periodically weigh them, periodically take photographs of them, because if you have this dog that comes in, say on the Purina scale, it's a one out of nine, um, which is important to always say what scale you're using. So, um, people can actually go back and look and don't just say it's a, a three out of five and you know, what scale are you using? I have no idea. Um, cause all scales are really not created equal. Um, but weigh them, take those photographs of them to show that change, you know, over the weeks of recovery because they're not going to eat and get better in two days. It's going to be this long, long process, but you're going to see that that progressive change.

I just recently shared a case that that I was working on and a lot of people got gut reaction was, Oh my God, feed those dogs. And people don't understand that you can't just throw food at them, that there is the whole refeeding syndrome and you can actually cause more problems than not, if you start feeding these, these starved animals,

Yep, exactly true. Yeah. You can't just say, here's your, your, I'm just going to make up a number of your 2000 calorie diet, um, because you, you're, you haven't had food for so long, you'll probably end up killing them. So. You got to do it slowly.

Let's go more on your side on the animals that do die from, from starvation. So what are going to be the most important things that you're looking for during that necropsy?

So it's, it's kind of similar. So again, we're going to look at, you know, their fat stores or lack of fat. Um, we'll look at their, their muscle, see how. Poorly or well muscled, they are that sort of thing. Um, but then we're going to go organ by organ. Um, every system will get examined for Um evidence of disease, uh, you know these organs with starvation they'll atrophy So yes, they'll be smaller, but we want to show how there's no, you know, systemic inflammatory disease or cancer, renal failure. Something like that to explain why this one animal looks the way it does Um, you know, so we're gonna, we're gonna be doing all that, looking at really the entire body, um, but with the advantage of being able to look at the organs themselves and not just looking at the blood work for organ function.

When somebody is asking about cases of starvation, they want to know about the cause of death. And then they also want to know about the time of death. So what are the ways that we can determine time of death on these starvation cases?

So, time of death is just a whole other ball game. Um, there's different ways to, to try to estimate it and in veterinary medicine, um, and even in human medicine, it's, it's not an exact science, um, you know, there's always a new method that someone comes out with, um, but a lot of it is going to be very specific to a certain location or even research, um, you know, very specific parameters, um, and, and, and, um, For me, it's entomology would be it's the well validated, um, and so we can use the insects, you know, if we have some, some maggots, some pupa, um, on the body, but, or, or even around the body, because we have to look there as well, that's going to help us a lot, giving us sort of a minimum time of colonization for those insects, and so that would Move over to, um, estimate in that post mortem interval. So that's really, um, just one way, but there's a lot of research out there. There was, um, I'm working with a student right now and she tried to use, uh, some immune immunohistochemistry, some flow cytometry. Um, but there's all sorts of things we talked about vitreous humor. Uh, so looking at potassium levels in the eye, um, you know, so there's lots of different ways, but a lot of them are, especially in the animal realm, where they're really in its infancy, um, I'm trying to work these up. Uh, so that's why for me, I fall back to entomology, uh, especially when I have any insect activity going to be probably very helpful.

And I have to say, I hate insects and that I'm scared of insects, but I learned to love insects from my entomology class during my veterinary forensics training. Um, and, and yeah, it's like people think, again, CSI effect, that somebody just looks and some larva out in the field and says, this has been dead for about 12 days. And that's not how that works. I learned that the hard way because during my class, I remember at the very end, we had to do a time of death estimation. And my result was something like 54 to 800 days. And I was like, clearly I'm doing something wrong. And I just redid it so many times. And yeah, it was like 54 to 800 days. But it's not as specific as people, as people may think.

Oh, yeah. Um, and I just and just to go back to the starvation thing for a second, because I wanted to say, you know, for for me, the the animal is no longer with us. So it's deceased. And so I don't have that luxury of feeding them like we talked about in the live animals, see what they do. So one of the things we actually looked for is foreign material. Um, in their stomachs and in their intestines and in whatever fecal matter they have, because these animals are hungry, um, they're going to eat anything they can. So non nutritious substances, styrofoam, plastic, um, anything like that is going to be very valuable, uh, for us to say, look, they, they had some sort of appetite, they clearly can swallow. And so it gives us a little more oomph to being able to, to sort of back our way into that starvation. So in

the two cases that, that I examined, um, and one of them, the owner said that the dog had parvo and it died. Um, and then the, the other one there was proof that they had actually been fighting. It was a domestic violence situation and they literally starved the dog. Um. But one of the things that I submitted was femur for bone marrow analysis. So, can you explain what, what is that, uh, and what's the information that we can get from it?

Yeah, so, so the femur analysis, and you're looking specifically at percentage of bone marrow fat. And so, for me, my viewpoint on that is that's really an adjunct, uh, to Your autopsy, um, your autopsy is going to be looking at all the systems and it's looking at fat stores. And one of the things that we routinely look at, whether or not you're a starvation case or not, is what does your bone marrow look like? Um, so in an adult animal, bone marrow is mostly fat. Okay. Um, I look at bone marrow. So like a can of dog food or a can of cat food, it is some basic macronutrients in there. You have water, which is moisture. You have carbohydrates, fats, and protein basically is what you got. And then there's ash, which is a very small percentage. Now in bone marrow. Um, Adult, mostly fat. There's no carbohydrates. There's very little protein. Um, there's some ash and very little moisture. And so, um, people use that, um, to sort of quantify the percentage of fat, which. For me, I have already looked at bone marrow. I've already said there's gelatinous change to the marrow. I've looked at it under a microscope to show there's no fat. And, and really the fat analysis, all it's doing for me, it's just giving me a number. It's, it's more objective. Um, and so we're going to give a number to my subjective, uh, interpretation. And so that's really what, what you can use it for. You can't use it to diagnose starvation. Um, because it's, it's not specific to a cause. It just says you have very little fat. Um, and then you also do have to be careful, though, that there will be cases where you have very little fat in your marrow. Um, but you didn't starve to death. So you take a dog who has leukemia, right? The neoplastic cells are actually going to displace and um, You know, efface the fat, so that animal is actually going to have very low fat in its marrow. And so if you looked at that just by itself, you'd end up with the wrong diagnosis. Um, so any tests that you do, regardless if it's a fat test or a blood test or a toxin test, you have to look at it in totality and not just as a silo by itself, because it's only going to give you a small piece of information that you have to look at it all together. Um, and so, uh, I get asked a lot, you know, if I just send you a bone, well, will you tell me anything about it? I'm like, I could, we could tell you that, but we have to look at it in the context of, of everything else.

So in the, in the cases that, that we were working, it was kind of like that, right? The animals were starting to decompose. So is, are they missing, they had no subcutaneous fat. So we were thinking that that's what was going on. The stomach, uh, one of the things that I found in the stomach and was that there was like a sludge in there. And at first I thought that it was food, but then discussing with other people, I was informed that they will create somewhat of a sludge in the stomach, um, just from the acids and that kind of stuff that can be confused with food. So can you tell us a little bit about that?

Yeah, so the, these animals sometimes have gastric ulcers, so they'll be bleeding in there, and so that mixed with the gastric contents, the acids and fluids, um, can get that more sludgy appearance to it. Um, so that's also one thing we look for is do we have gastric ulcers, um, because they might have some GI bleeding.

So overall, I mean, clearly it's going to be easier if there's a starvation case and somebody wants to consult with you for you to do the complete necropsy rather than look at different samples. Is there something, though, if that is not possible, what kind of things can you guide veterinarians in trying to determine if there was a starvation case?

Yeah, so I think if, you know, consulting on a case, um, basically if someone else is doing the autopsy, it's always, you know, look at everything, right? Look at, at everything from the, you know, the tip of the nose, the tail to the feet and everything in between. Um, and then work with your pathologist because they're the ones who can look at the tissues under the microscope. So we can say, yes, we don't have any disease here. You have all of your your data that you've collected. And it's a really great way to a have more than one person look at a case because it's always better to have consults and other specialists to help back up your claims, um, and sort of get us to that point. So, um, you know, if you think it's a starvation case and all you submit to someone to look at under the microscope is lung, that's not very helpful. Um, so really, you know, give us a full set of tissues so we can actually give you some powerful data that again, combining with yours, um, really. Again, helps, helps the science show what was or was not going on.

How does the University of Florida help with these cases and what is the process that humane officers or veterinarians, uh, take to send you samples or consult with you guys?

Yeah, so we, we work with with everyone, right? We'll work with the, uh, the investigator. So whether it's law enforcement, animal control, animal services, depending on whose jurisdiction it is and, and who does what in that area, uh, veterinarians, uh, attorneys. Uh, and even the pet owner will, will work directly with them, uh, through their veterinarian to sort of help them through the process. But, uh, we, we pretty much do everything here. We do obviously the forensic autopsies. Um, we have two, uh, fellows of veterinary forensic pathology here. Um, and so there's going to be typically, uh, one or two sets of eyes on on every case that comes to our lab. Um, but we do, uh, whether it's in house or in consultation with other institutions or laboratories, um, we do, uh, some forensic toxicology. Uh, entomology, DNA analysis, uh, we even, um, work with people who do, uh, photogrammetry and so that's for, uh, often for wildlife, you know, based on photographs, how is that image, uh, whatever in that image, if it's a deer, for example, is that the same one that's You know, we have a dead on the road or somebody poached that sort of thing so we can kind of match the photographs. We do, crime scene response. So we'll go out there and help with the investigators, um, whether it's documenting the scene or helping with an excavation. Um, and even if we have live animals, although I don't practice live animal medicine, um, we help with logistics and we help, um, identify people who can help them. Uh, so if we can't do it, we will 100 percent say, you know, we're not the ones for that, but you can go, um, to this person and they'll, they'll totally help you.

Cool. And how, what's the website or how can people get ahold of you guys to, to do a request?

Yeah. So actually we have a new website rolling out. Um, we literally hit the go button the other day, so the site, uh, should go live very soon, but it's, it's actually, I'll give you the new address it's animal forensics.vetmed.ufl.edu and that will take everyone to everything that we do um, whether it's the services the the research or even the teaching and outreach that we do so it's going to be a one stop shop Um, we have several other websites But we're going to close them all down and and kind of direct them all to this this one site Which we're really excited about this

Excellent. And we'll make sure to share that because it's a great resource. So finally, I want to close by talking about the International Society of Animal Forensic Sciences. So what led you to found this organization?

So, um, I founded this organization with, with two other, um, individuals, uh, Dr. Jason Bird and Adam Leith. And it is Geared towards the investigator, um, because they, they, you know, they have a hard job, uh, going out there and investigating all these cases. And sometimes the investigator, um, really doesn't have that background in animal cruelty investigations and forensic investigations. And so we thought this was a, a, a great way and, and something that wasn't really out there, um, to help, to help this subset of, of. Of people. Um, and so we, we founded it and it's, it's taken off really well. Um, we, um, have members from all the habitable, uh, continents. Um, so if there's anyone working in Antarctica and they, they, they want to join, they have a free membership. Um, you know, as long as they're dealing with something, um, animal forensic related, um, you know, there's, there's, you know, always. Great things that people do out there. Um, but we really wanted to, um, develop an organization that was really geared towards the investigator. and, in doing so we've, have a great group of people. Um, we have actually a lot of veterinarians. Uh, we have some attorneys, law enforcement, animal control. Um, we really have everybody who, who. It's all the walks of life that are involved in these investigations, and it's just a great way to, um, sort of. Help to, to build one's, um, education, whether it's, um, foundational, like they just started, or they are a seasoned investigator who have been doing this for years. There's still, there's always new things to learn. Like, there's always a new technique that maybe they didn't think about before.

One of the things that I have really enjoyed is the coffee talks. Like, I feel that there's a lot of interaction, uh, and, you know, it's kind of nice having something like that for individuals that are interested in forensics. what can people expect out of these coffee talks?

Yeah, so, look, the Animal Forensics coffee talks, um, We we really like them. Um, and the one thing I like about them is they're short the talks are 15 20 minutes Um, it's a half hour block, right? Um, we get lots of questions and stuff like that in the end as you've seen so like it goes it goes the whole time But the whole point of them is to teach people like one thing, like a lesson learned, like this actually helped my case. Um, it's not there to be, you know, uh, a 60 minute lecture on a huge topic. Like our upcoming one is, is specifically looking at chemical enhancement of, of blood. So blue star and luminol and really just compare and contrast them. Um, and that's all that's going to be. It's not going to. You know, be the, this whole drawn out thing. It's it's, it's to the point. Um, but they've been great. And the reason why I wanted to do them really short is the investigator. Honestly, they're busy. The veterinarian, like myself, we're, we're super busy. And so being able to set aside an hour or two hours is really hard, but for 20 minutes, 25 minutes, they can sit in their vehicle, um, listen. Uh, maybe just kind of do some basic paperwork, um, and, and learn something. And so that's, that's our whole point. Um, and we're about to, right now we're doing it once a month. We're about to do it twice a month. Um, and so, I mean, You have so many topics. We're going to do like mini series of we're going to do some toxicology mini series. We're going to do a mini series on animal sexual abuse, looking at the human side, the animal side and and some screening techniques. So we have a lot of good stuff planned, and it's always going to be a little different. And our speakers are experts in their field. So, um, our, our luminol and blood, uh, sorry, our chemical enhancement for blood, um, that's going to be given by Dr. Sharon Plotkin, and, and she is an expert. Um, and she teaches all this stuff to, uh, at a local college and she's been doing this for decades. So, you know, we always try to find like the best person or people, um, to present these topics.

Yeah, I really, I really enjoy it. And I think that as you mentioned, like the short time frame makes it easy. Um, most of what I do is spay neuter. So I'm traveling to locations and we usually get to a location around that time, around 9 a. m. So while we're setting it up, I'm just listening and trying to watch while we get everything ready. So then by the time we're the talk is over and we can, and we can move on. But yeah, I, I really. I just really enjoyed the interaction. A lot of associations don't have that right like they they offer support and they have articles and that kind of stuff, but it doesn't feel like that continuous flow of information. So, so yeah, please, please keep that up because

we have, I think, 27 talks planned for the rest of the year so like there's there's a ton coming out. So we're just confirming all the speakers before we release the massive schedule.

Excellent. And what is the website for that?

It's isafs.org.

And then you also have a conference coming soon. So do you want to let people know about that?

Yeah, so we have the Animal Forensic Sciences, uh, Animal Forensic Investigations Conference. Sorry, it's sponsored by our lab, the Veterinary Forensic Sciences, uh, Laboratory. And it is May 20th, 22nd of this year. It's in sunny Gainesville, Florida. Um, We're close to the beach. We're not at the beach. Um, but we have a three day event and it's really covering all aspects of the investigation. Um, from the investigation itself. I think it's about a day's worth of content for the actual investigation, um, to sort of specific types of animals. So we have a small animal mini sessions. We have a large animal, we have wildlife. Um, and then we have a couple of talks on like preparing for court and search warrants. Uh, so we really cover everything from the beginning of the investigation, uh, to the courts in the end. Um, so we're really excited about that. Uh, it's a great lineup of speakers and they all, they all are very knowledgeable.

Yeah, I'm excited about it. I'm excited that it's in Florida. So, um, as of right now, I'm planning on attending because I think it's a really great lineup. Well,

you have great, you have great speakers to pull aside and have little sessions with if you want.

Oh, oh, I'm planning on that too. So you may want, you may want all your participants that I'm going to be hitting them up if I show up.

Absolutely. We'll, we'll gladly have you.

Excellent. So is there anything that I've forgotten to cover or anything that you wanted to add?

No, I think I, I really enjoyed this chit chat in the morning. Um, I think, you know, I just want everybody to know that we're here to, to help them. Um, you know, I always say, And there's no, there's no silly question, right? Um, you can always ask a question and you may, or you may get an answer of, Oh, that's super easy. Or no, no one's ever thought about that, but it is a really good question or something in the middle. Um, but don't be afraid to ask questions. Um, tell my students that all the time. I tell everybody when I lecture, it's like, just stop me. Just ask me a question. I'd rather, I'd rather be able to talk to you than talking sort of at you. Um, when I give a seminar and things like that, but ask questions, we're, we're absolutely here to, to help. And, you know, we might not be able to help you, but we can, you know, maybe find somebody who can. Um, but there are those cases where, you know, unfortunately, like the, the answer that you want, you just, you just can't get it, but, uh, reach out to us and we'll totally chat and figure out what's going on.

And that makes sense, right? Because that's what we're about. We're about answering questions. It's just the nature of what we do.

That's right. The biggest question I get asked is, is, you know, why dead, right? Um, you know, for entomology, it's, it's how long dead? Uh, you know, so, so you just ask a question and we try to come up with a plan.

Excellent. Well, thank you so much for taking the time for being here, to be here. Uh, I've really enjoyed this conversation. I think it's a great start to our To, to getting more of these episodes out. So, uh, this has been great. I hope that, that the listeners have learned and anything that people have not gotten, we've given them resources and websites to, to follow up so that they can get more information. So I hope you have a great day with the rest of your day and to everybody that's listening thank you for listening and thank you for caring.