Well, Hey everybody, Jonathan Doyle with you.
Once again, we'll come back to the daily podcast, my friends working through and
fascinating series of listener questions over the next a I dunno, maybe week or so.
Two weeks of episodes are going to be covering questions straight from you guys.
Which is, um, which is really great.
And as I've mentioned in the last few episodes, it is a.
Regulatory experience in the sense that it reminds me of, um, just how similar.
Other challenges.
And opportunities for growth that we all face a welcome a board.
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journey with me for a long time.
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You know, so many of you being back on the speaking circuit again.
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We, uh, responding to a listener question, as I haven't mentioned,
and we are dealing with a topic that is arguably the most popular topic.
Sadly.
In, uh, in podcasts, my podcast sort of history because I look at some of
the diagnostics and we've covered this a few weeks, maybe a month or two ago.
And it was very popular out on YouTube as well.
It was, um, it was really popular and it's really getting back
to the topic of toxic people.
And the listener question was, they said to me,
Uh, how do I deal with people that want to bring you down, fill you with fear
and blame you for being the aggressor?
You'll be so proud of me, everybody.
I just thought of, uh, you know, Those of you that know the show
will know that I have strong libertarian leanings, and I felt that.
That question was describing a lot of our current political social
experience, but I'm going to restrain myself from going down that rabbit
But we're talking about toxic people.
The kind of people who enjoy bringing us down.
Being negative, being critical, using fear.
And then of course blame you for being the aggressor, which I guess
is the concept of gaslighting.
Which is, if you're not familiar with it is kind Convincing somebody that
they did or said something that they genuinely didn't do and messing with
their minds so that they begin to wonder whether they did it or not.
And tragically gaslighting has led to some absolutely awful outcomes.
People making tragic decisions about their own lives.
And based on being a guest's So here we are friends in the realm of toxic people.
A few thoughts on this.
Uh, many of us are dealing with this in different times in life.
Most often in the work context, a lot of other places.
You know, you can.
You can be more selective and you can avoid it, but it's
traditionally, uh, the workplace or.
Different organizations that we can belong to.
We'll be running to people who seem to.
Not only a desire.
Well, you know, to, uh, to cause harm, but genuinely enjoy it.
And one thought I've had is the kind of sad and tragic unraveling
of aspects of our social fabric.
So kind of.
You know, the, the impact of, of technology in some ways, the
impact upon families parenting.
A whole bunch of technological factors.
I would suggest a, probably going to see a lot more of this before we see less of it.
You know, the kind of cohesion, the social cohesion, the bonds of.
Relationships and social belonging that have marked us species.
Since we emerged as homo sapiens sapiens, about 350,000 years ago.
Many of those have been profoundly under pressure.
You know, definitely.
Since the industrial revolution in the 1860s, but the kind of factors that
held communities and people together.
Uh, I really broken and we're seeing this incredible atomization of culture where,
you know, so many young people, of course are being raised digitally and lack of
exposure to nature and extended family and all these factors that are making.
I guess growing up in a really healthy spiritually and socially adjusted
way more difficult than it may have been at other times in history.
So, what do we do with that?
Um, knowing that we're probably gonna see more of it rather
than less and buy more of it.
I mean, I think we're gonna see more damage to people.
I think we're going to see more people.
Who have experienced some pretty difficult.
Um, parenting.
Different social studies, different, difficult social situations, and that
lack of formation is going to play out.
So.
What do we do about it?
People that want to bring us down, fill us with fear and
blame me for being the aggressor.
I sit in a recent episode when you find yourself in a situation.
With this kind of thing is happening.
There's three options and it is a real, uh, keep revisiting this.
Cause I think it's a really good summation of where our decision-making
and agency can lie in life.
And it's, you can either leave a situation, change the situation.
Or accept the situation.
So this really worth holding onto that as we go through life and we
encounter different experiences.
So you're in a workplace you're somewhere.
With somebody who is, um, you know, is, is really ticking
that box for toxic behavior.
You know, and on this, you're going to have a spectrum here, right?
You're gonna have a spectrum from just difficult people with poor social skills,
all the way to full blown sociopathy and narcissistic personality disorder.
My
It seems very common, like much more common than it months might have been.
Like, I think.
There was always sociopath's and narcissists floating around.
But, uh, they, there seems to be a lot more of it lately.
I think we're seeing a fair bit of it in certain.
Uh, political, uh, figures across the spectrum.
This isn't really a left or right thing.
I think we're seeing it in different
Um, people whose obsession with self and with self-promotion is highly destructive.
So we're, we're looking at that spectrum, right?
Through, you Through experiencing somebody and thinking to yourself, you know, what.
Uh, just don't vibe with this person.
I just, just not my, not my bag.
All the way to people who enjoy causing harm.
And that's pretty much.
Yeah, sociopathy.
From my understanding.
Sociopath's do not understand.
That their behaviors.
Harm others.
So they think they're being normal, but they just don't.
They cannot process it.
Understand.
That the way that they live, behave, speak, interact, causes harm.
So they're dangerous because they just don't get it.
They just don't even see it.
All the way through the psychopathic, which is people
who genuinely enjoy causing pain.
Um, Hopefully, none of us, you know, regularly encounter
somebody in that category.
But we, we definitely encounter people somewhere from slightly annoying to
narcissistic personality disorder.
So here's our options.
We leave it, we accept it or we change Now.
The core response would be well.
Jonathan, you don't know my situation.
It's not possible for me to leave the situation.
You know, I can't financially.
I can't, I can't, You know, I kind of get it.
I took Olivia out my daughter to a movie the other day is a French movie.
We try and try and show her a lot of really interesting international films.
Um, a French subtitle film called full-time.
It was about this woman who has two young kids and relationships broken down.
She's working in Paris.
As a head.
Uh, chamber maiden.
The exclusive hotel and just the pressure that she's under the financial strain,
the physical strain, the time strain.
And it's a brilliant film.
I really recommend seeing it.
If you can find it's called full time and.
You know, it's a, it's a great snapshot into the reality that there are, I
said this to Olivia on the way home.
I said, you know, there are plenty of people on.
I said, they're just under so much pressure.
That they can't easily leave a situation.
So I'm honestly not sure how to answer that because I think if situations
are genuinely toxic, there really is a trade off that has to be made.
The trade-off between.
Financial imperatives and other relational social imperatives, you You
could be working in a job where you're making really good money, but it, you
know, you're dealing with really awful people that are wrecking your life and
you bringing that stuff home with you.
And ultimately what has to be done is an evaluation of the, you know,
it's a cost benefit analysis, right?
It's trade offs.
It's like,
You're placing a particular value upon the money.
And I'm not judging anybody.
I don't know anybody's circumstance and it could be at an accurate evaluation.
All the way through to, you're just not prepared to let it go.
And in your hierarchy where the consciously or unconsciously you're
placing the finance ahead of the crucial relationships in your life.
So that's the first thing we got to really look at it.
We're dealing with really awful people who had making our lives unbearable.
That stuff comes home with us.
That stuff affects us.
So we have to prayerfully.
Intelligently consider that truth, you know?
I think often in that circumstance, we can absolutize things we can just get in
a point where we're like, I can't leave.
I can't leave.
It's impossible to
So I really encourage people to critique that story.
Uh, sometimes it's, you know, and again, in this movie full time,
when, when everything eventually falls apart, there's like this.
Small island of refuge, where all the insane living stops for a moment,
because it was all taken away from it.
And, you know, you see this kind of.
She suddenly found a moments, peace, realizing that everything
that she'd thought that was so utterly crucial to our life.
You know, wasn't and she couldn't see what the future was going to
bring, but there was this moment and it's quite a beautifully done
in the film where she suddenly realized that that stuff was over.
So all of this is my way of saying to us all.
You got to really evaluate what's most important in And if you're
staying somewhere for the money or the promotions or whatever else.
You got to weigh that up because if it's wrecking your health and the
relational, emotional health of the people Nothing's worth that it really isn't.
Nothing's worth
People filling you with fear.
You know, this is the question here where she says, you know, what do I do
with people that fill you with fear?
I think it was Eleanor Roosevelt that famously said.
No one can make me feel anything unless I give them permission.
Um, it's a powerful quote.
Isn't it?
I don't and she says, no one can make me feel anything unless
I give them permission to.
I don't know what I think about that.
What do you think about that?
Like, People can act in ways that can really impact us.
Right.
But she sort of saying that we don't have to give away our power to people.
We don't have to let them take that control.
And again, this question today is pretty general, so I don't know the
specifics of this person's circumstance.
But, um, yeah, there's definitely people that can intimidate that can
be, you know, Really seeking power and.
I don't know how much you can do with that.
I remember the first job I ever worked when I graduated.
There was this one guy who was pretty much the organizational, you know,
the office psychopath, this, they
I had this idea.
I had this idea to try something innovative, and I remember him kind
of walking up in my space and getting in my physical space and basically.
Uh, trying to intimidate me and I'm like, is this a thing?
People really do this, like, I get it.
I get that.
They can do it.
So what are my options?
You know, back in that circumstance.
Options, you know, leave, accept, or change.
I chose to leave.
I chose to find a much better place that opened up new doors
and There's been somewhere else.
Because I'm not really, I don't, I don't see our employment as often the
place where we need to change others.
Because creating change in others.
I mean, firstly people have to want to change.
It's incredibly hard to change people that don't want to change.
It's very stressful and it takes a lot of energy and they really say, thank you.
And you've got to weigh up if that's worth it.
Right.
So if people are filling you with fear,
Leave accept or change.
And I don't think you can accept that.
And I don't think you can stay under that.
So I think if people are emotionally, psychologically, spiritually,
or physically intimidating you and driving fear into you,
you have to be somewhere else.
I would say you would need.
My, my, my sense is that you would need to leave that situation.
And again, I don't know the specific CSO.
Just take that for what it's worth and the gaslighting, where they say blame
you for being the aggressive that is.
That's basically psychological harm, right?
Like it's, he, you can't walk into a workplace and just physically hit somebody
you get fired and possibly arrested.
But, you know, to Gaslight somebody to.
To treat them terribly and then turn it around and say that they're treating, you
know, that you're treating them terribly.
That's, that's psychological damage humans.
Aren't designed for that.
And we're not designed to get messed up in that way.
And, you know, one of the basic things that they do in, in
torture and deprivation stuff.
I remember reading about this in.
You know, Novels and historical books around special forces training.
You know, one of the things they do is they, you know, they, they try and
test soldiers in case they're captured.
Right.
And they do sleep deprivation and then they, they keep messing with their heads.
They keep saying one thing, doing another, changing the parameters
and the environment all the time.
One of the quickest ways to destabilize people is to do that.
So.
Having settled that this is a happy episode, isn't it?
Um, I don't know if you can be there.
So I would encourage you to, you know, it is possible to find environments that
are positive, that are full of light, that are full of good people, where you
want to be, where you're appreciated.
So, again, I You're talking about a work context or is it a
social relational family context?
Um, You know, I guess if it's a relational context or a family
context, there's the possibility of.
Have a discussion of calling this stuff out and saying, You're really critical.
You're really negative.
You keep criticizing me.
I need you to stop.
You know, you intimidate me and I don't like it.
Um, You know, Uh, at least you can have that conversation, you know,
don't put yourself in any risk, but, you know, Often in the workplace and.
To the workplace question.
You know, a lot of places have systems, right?
Let us, you know, have systems and ways that you can provide.
You can send things up the chain.
Most organizations now are quite concerned about.
The kind of litigation and problems that can come from this.
So again, without knowing your exact circumstance, it's hard to say,
If there is a system you can use, then use that system.
If it's a family or relational situation, then is it possible to risk
the very difficult conversation that obviously needs to have to happen here.
But again, if it's a.
It's a dangerous situation in your way.
I think you would be best to exit that as quickly as possible.
So friends.
You know, for all of us listening, who don't experience that sort of thing.
I would say that.
You know, behind all of what I'm saying is the belief that
we are allowed to be happy.
That we are allowed to be in places where we feel appreciated.
Places where I give to recognize and we get to use them.
So for all of us dealing with really toxic, difficult people, I
would say to you weigh up the cost benefit analysis, weigh up the, the.
The.
You know, the, uh, The on costs, the kind of other effects on your health, your
outside relationships, your family, your parenting, and ask yourself, you know,
do I need to make some changes here?
So leave, change your accept friends, leave, change, or accept.
Okay.
I hope that's useful.
Let me know what you think, guys.
Uh, you can jump on the YouTube channel, leave some comments there.
On this episode, you can email me, jonathan@jonathandoyle.co.
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