All

right, guys, welcome back to sweat equity.

We got an awesome guest for you today.

This is Matt half Hill.

Matt is the founder and CEO of nice kicks.

com, a legendary sneakers media publication.

They've got over 10 million followers across all the major

social platforms reached 30 million people last year in 2023.

And that included a visitor from every country in the

world, including North Korea.

So I think to start it off, like, how'd you, how'd you get in there?

Yeah.

Well, I mean, I do want to clarify this 30 million each month that

we're reaching 30 million each month.

Yeah.

Golly.

Yeah.

It's 360 a million a year potentially.

Yeah.

I mean, it's gonna be some overlap.

Fluctuate, but still,

let's call it.

Yeah.

You know, a safe

200.

Yeah.

Safe 200, 500.

Yeah.

Can have a million, give or take.

Yeah.

No.

It, it, it, it really is incredible to, to see just the number of people who tune

in to NICE kicks, not just on the website, which is where we started, but across.

All forms of social media, which is really where so much of the growth is.

Yeah, absolutely.

I used to be one of them.

I think I told you that when we, when we first met, we do wrong.

He

used to be

a dude.

Well, a topic that we'll talk about later is the decrease in relevance of,

you know, the signature athlete today.

But back, back when I was in high school, which was like 2010 to 2014 you know,

you guys had this segment, which I'm not sure if you still do, but it's called

kicks on court and kicks on court was.

The only way where if you saw an NBA player had a sneaker

that was not sold on nike.

com, Kicks Encore would tell you what that sneaker was called so you

could look it up from there on out.

And maybe, just maybe, they would drop it eventually and so you would

kind of be plugged in that way.

I feel like my entire childhood was Nice Kicks and Slam.

Yeah.

Like getting to Slam Magazine and being on NiceKicks.

com.

Shout out to

PRC.

I got, that's, that's my dog.

He owns Slam.

com.

Yeah, man, I mean, just like unbelievable how y'all built such a

big business and the sneaker world.

We'd love to kind of hear just like about the founding story and it

sounds like you're tired of paying eBay fees and stuff like that.

So,

I mean, it's, it's funny.

Like when I, when I started out, it was in 2002, I was working at a shoe store at

the mall called Athletes World in Canada.

And I was buying clearance items and selling them on eBay.

And.

It was while I was still working there, I was, you know, doing this

on the side, a customer walked in wearing a pair of vintage Reeboks.

And I asked him like, man, where'd you get those shoes?

And he said, I got them on eBay and like light bulb went over my

head, like, oh my gosh, he credited the platform, not the seller.

And so I knew, well, if I want to build a long term, you

know, opportunity of a brand.

I'm going to have to build my own website and not just rely

on using the marketplace of eBay.

Yeah.

That's crazy.

So what, what were the Reeboks?

Do you

remember?

I don't fully remember.

I I'm like, I can't remember if they were a reverse jam or twilight zone pump.

I mean, I there's,

yeah.

I just, I just wanted to give you an opportunity to flex the

sneaker, which I think you nailed.

So, you know, you kind of built that business on the back of

being, I would say a blog site.

Would that be accurate?

Yeah.

I mean,

I was six.

We launched the WordPress blog.

I'd been toying with it in oh five, but that's really where the growth happened.

Yeah.

And, and what I noticed was like.

I was a big consumer of tech blogs, and I love the format.

I love the tone.

I love the way that, you know, as a user, you got the latest news at the top.

It was in chronological order.

So if you, even if you didn't visit it every day, you could.

You know, catch up pretty easily.

And at that time, the only way that information online was shared about

sneakers was in the message board and forum format, which had was great because

anybody could contribute, but also terrible because anybody could contribute.

And the way that threads worked, the way that they were multi,

you know, multi pages on stuff.

It was just.

Terrible as a user experience and there's no way a casual person could

use them and stay up to date, right?

I also found a lot of bad info on there and it really hit me when I went to a

Local finish line at the barton creek mall on a saturday for a release And

I was going based on the information that was put on these forms and

they hadn't verified the information and the store, I was there early in

the morning waiting for the shoes.

This is actually the Flint 13s in 2005 and the store manager

was like, why, why are you here?

Like, what, what are you doing here?

And I'm like, I'm here for the Flints.

And he's like, oh, those come out next week.

Yeah.

And I saw like, oh my gosh, like this is like, I'm a victim of bad info here.

Right.

And I thought, okay.

You know, there needs to be a better way that this information is gathered,

collected, presented, but also verified before, you know, going up.

Yeah, no doubt.

And, and you were sort of the curator of verified information around sneakers.

You kind of parlayed that, you know, ran the media side of it for a

little bit and then actually launched a retail store here in Austin.

Yep.

Maybe talk a little bit about, about that decision and like going from the

digital world into the physical world.

Right.

Yeah.

So we, through the early days of like getting the information, right?

Like I had, I befriended a lot of shop owners because they would like, it was.

A good way to verify info also to like, at that time, none of the brands really

like understood what blogs were and they didn't like really think we were real.

Like it was funny because like, because we didn't have a television show, a

radio program or a print magazine, they didn't consider us media.

Yeah.

So, like, it was, it was really frustrating for us to try to work with

PR at different brands and they were just like, well, you're not really a thing.

It's like, what the hell are you talking about?

We have millions of people logging on every month.

Yeah.

And it actually wasn't until I opened a retail store that they, that a few were

like, Oh, Oh, so you guys really do reach a lot of people and it's like, okay, so

a lineup of 700 people was it, but not the three or 4 million people a month.

Like it was part of

opening the retail store to create that effect that you're more official or

solidified with PR and these different

companies.

There was part of it.

And that actually weighed heavily into choosing to use the nice kicks name.

There were a lot of people who said, use a different brand.

Really?

And because they were like saying, you should try to keep them separate.

And I, there is a school of thought to that.

But I felt like, no, why, why use a different name?

Like, let's build a brand.

Exactly.

And so the purpose of the retail store, the retail store, it was

never about selling product.

It was about creating an offline extension of the digital brand, a physical space

people could go to and see, this is what.

Yeah.

It should feel like for sneaker heads to go into, you know,

and experience something.

I mean,

bro, it's a must stop.

Like when Thomas and I, my, my co founder at grind, when we would come to Austin,

that was a must stop for us every time, because especially being from Texas,

you don't have as many kind of really high end sneaker shops like that us

and premium goods for a long time.

Right.

Yeah.

And so, you know, you guys were able to.

Provide that bespoke experience that like if you're a sneakerhead

in Texas, you didn't have.

So, you know, whenever we come here, it'd be so cool.

It feels like you're in LA or New York.

And

I also feel like it's a relationship builder with your top readers.

Like the people that are.

reading nice consistently and visiting consistently.

Like if you could open the retail spot, that's not like in there in Austin,

it becomes either a, the destination destination or B where they come to

experience the brand versus just consuming

content for the brand.

Exactly.

And, and further to that, one of the big things that we did from

the very get go was the design of the space was super important.

We worked with a local guy named Chris Swift, who was just did

a phenomenal job of designing the space, which was so small.

But one of the things that we did there was, The stories matter to nice kicks,

you know, like it's not an accident that that our logo is a speech bubble because

it's about conversation and storytelling and we had these museum type like pedestal

displays that we would change out on a very regular basis and we would pull

things from our vault of collection.

And other little items to put together to kind of tell a story and always we try to

time to something that was relevant at the time or relevant of an upcoming release.

So people were able to get something different in our space just by walking

in than they could get anywhere else.

And that was that was really the big

focus.

So was the experience always getting like changed and curated

based on what was happening, what was going on games being played?

We were constantly changing that's all sound and we would do things like

during South by Southwest week We did like special ones that were more geared

towards that towards that crowd Yeah, you know like we even got it down to

like this is interactive week So let's get our star some of our Star Wars or

some other like, you know tech related product In the display and then it was

like when it can't it came time to music.

It was like oh no No, now we're gonna do like Choose that were done

by DJs or have some musical tie to

it.

So that's awesome.

And so, you know, ultimately you did decide to move on from the

retail side of things and kind of focus more so on the media side.

Is there anything you can share about that decision?

Maybe for like some young people looking to do something similar

and go from media to retail.

Yeah, I mean, I would say that while brands were first on very much on board

with us having a retail store, there was a time that I think a lot of individuals

at some organizations did not understand.

And they had, you know, big policies that had changed.

And they wanted to impose rules on that restricted our blog just because

we had one physical store, really.

And so we had the same rules that Footlocker would kind of thing.

And it's like there was, I think there was a misunderstanding, a disconnect.

Ultimately, I'm, I really wanted to.

Be unrestricted to tell stories, tell them in our way and not have to balance

this thing of like we're telling a story this way than this other division of this

company doesn't want us to do something.

And so it was just like, no, just make it easy.

Just stick to media.

That is what we love the most.

We love storytelling.

We actually work with all of these brands.

And you know, like I, I, I can't begin to tell you how much less

stressful running a media group is then running a brick and mortar

operation.

And so, you know, continue with that theme.

So.

You started as a blog and then we're kind of a pioneer in that space,

definitely, at least in the sneaker world.

But now you're sort of shifting your thoughts on, you know, what that

media company really looks like in the shape that it takes online, maybe

shifting a little bit away from the blog format towards a new format.

Just like maybe talk about how y'all are transitioning to a new

format of the business going forward

for sure So in 2006 when we had launched the blog like we had

the primary source of revenue was the Google pay per click ads I

don't know if you remember those.

Oh, yeah, so we had Google pay per click like pre banners kind of thing And then

we worked with we actually were the first site to join complex media's like digital

network in 2007 and that, that brought in a new, a different type of ad product,

which was the banner ad and then the full site takeovers and all that kind of stuff.

Then we're kind of spun from there was custom content.

And other types of creative projects.

We do a lot of custom content and creative projects to this day.

And, but a lot, not as many are happening on the website.

So really the channel where they're happening, that's

what's been the biggest shift.

Because really, the eye, there's less, there are fewer eyeballs

on web than in the past.

Like now it's very much on social, especially the, the, the Type the

demographic that the advertisers and the brands want to read.

So the blog was the medium.

NiceKicks.

com was the medium.

What was the verb?

Storytelling.

So, the verb has not changed.

We're still storytelling.

But the venue has changed.

You know, it's gone from NiceKicks.

com to places where it's at NiceKicks.

Whether that's on NiceKicks on Twitter, on Facebook, Instagram.

Doing a little bit with Tik TOK YouTube.

Then we also have the app SMS, other types of channels that we communicate through.

But since the web has really shifted to where there's less desire to consume

stories through web, we've kind of changed that tool to be much more about

helping consumers be able to purchase products and helping them find whatever

shoe it is that they're looking for.

So that's, that's like the utility has, demand has changed.

I love this idea

that you just talked about of.

Transitioning from like the domain, the new domain is your at handle and

like that is now your new website that is now your, your new way

of getting information out there.

And unlike a website though, it has mass like brand awareness potential.

What are you doing on like the, the side of.

YouTube.

And like, is there a strategy that you're now developing of?

Okay, we did this on web.

This is now our approach to what we're doing on social, what we're

doing on YouTube pods, like, and, and kind of recreating that world for

yourself.

Yeah.

So we had done YouTube very early, like, or not super early, but at

least for our space pretty early.

And we had had a couple of shows on there.

We actually did a kicks on court show weekly.

And then we had series by George that did sole access where you go

into locker rooms with different teams to kind of get a tour of that.

You can see a lot of player exclusives.

And then Sneak Peek was our big franchise product and then we did

50 some episodes of, of Sneak Peek.

We've just relaunched that.

We've, we relaunched that recently as a social first, but we have now started

doing long form versions of Sneak Peek that are going on to YouTube.

Our strategy with YouTube is that we will probably create

specific products for YouTube.

The days of just like taking one and, and like translating it to multiple channels.

It's really tough to do because certain things work really well on

certain channels, primarily because of the design of that channel, just

based for, you know, just to take, for example, the on video front.

It's not just the way the shape and size, but it's like.

The flow of the video has to be different.

What the consumers on those platforms are looking for is different as

well.

Yeah.

I mean, there's, there's expected behaviors, you know, there's, there's

little cues across the different platforms that kind of make them unique to each

other and I think making your brands, you know, position on each channel to

actually be easily absorbed by that viewer is really important because otherwise.

There's so much other things trying to get their attention and just, you know,

swiping through has never been easier.

I also

think about like this idea of how are you turning your own

YouTube channel into your own like Netflix where the consumer is

coming to your channel and yeah.

And like the behavior is like Netflix because they're coming

to, you know, and you have.

Five shows, 10 different shows.

Like you're talking about someone that does a really good

job with this is James Gordon.

Like he has carpool karaoke.

He is like trying different foods.

Like he has 10, 15, 20 different shows.

And because of that, you go to his channel, knowing like he's dropping

an episode Monday, Tuesday, but they're all different things that

you can, that you can consume.

And if you love him, then you're going to, you know, you're

going to consume that content.

Is that kind of how you're thinking about it?

It's like you're using it almost as.

You're hosting many

different shows.

We will eventually get to that.

I think a better parallel for us would be some kind of the model of like what

donut media has done with automobiles.

Again, I think the difference between us and say a Corbin is that

a lot of YouTube is personality and name driven off of an individual.

We are, we're a publishing brand, so we have, like, we have to

play a little bit differently.

Of course, the host matters a lot, but I don't think it would be the best decision,

especially for a company like us.

We would be so limited if we had just one primary host that has to be the

one size fits all for everything.

There's a Everclear song, pretty mid called everything to everyone.

And it's like, not only is that song just kind of mediocre, it's a terrible

strategy for brand as well as content.

You can't make everything for everyone.

It's got to be more

focused.

Speaking of mid, how about these recent signature sneakers?

In the last like three years, it feels like we haven't had a strong release.

I mean, You know, D book is beef or Devin Booker is beefing with Nike about,

you know, the execution of his release.

John Moran, obviously torpedoes his entire, you know, release of the job one

and gets in trouble with the, you know, send the video meme there for a bit.

I mean, so, you know, I think something that we've, we've kind of

discussed before was, you know, the signature athlete has never been more.

I guess widespread and less relevant.

So I'd love to kind of get your two cents on that.

Yeah.

I mean, I

think that we've had some unfortunate things happen in the signature

shoe space for in the past, specifically one calendar or two calendar years.

I think of like Nike had.

Two crises on their hands with signature athletes.

Like they had things, the drama that was happening with Kyrie and then with

John Morant, unfortunately for Nike in both situations, there's a lot of stuff

that was like off court type of stuff.

Which, this is also kind of the part, this is one of the big challenges you

have of doing business with endorsed individuals in 2024, which is social

media and stuff that happens outside of, you know, the, the profession, both

of these incidents that they would not have happened during the Jordan era.

They just.

Yeah.

You wouldn't have a cell phone that you could just tweet because he's going

to like, he's going to Vegas.

He's gambling and it

comes out

20 years later kind of thing on the last dance.

That's the first time we, we hear about it

really.

Exactly.

So I think like that has been what has, has had a huge impact for, for brands.

I mean, there's the blessing and curse of it.

Like, yeah, the blessing is that, you know, if you have a

player that has a huge offer.

Court personality, you have a personality that is selling things

beyond what they do on court.

I think Lamello Ball is a great example of that.

Lamello Ball was a huge star far before the NBA, thanks to social media.

Yeah.

And it almost, I wonder if it cannibalizes their marketability.

I think about guys, you know, if I'm Jason Tatum, I'm never doing anything

that could risk my endorsements, you know, and I think it almost makes

these guys have less personality.

Because the camera is always on them because there is this opportunity that it

could blow up with a scandal at any time.

I,

I've said it a million times.

I would hate to be a start in today's world.

Yeah.

You, you have no privacy.

Yeah.

At all.

Right.

You, you just don't.

And the thing we have to remember too is that a lot of these guys

are young, like really kids.

I mean, I'm 39 now, so everybody under 30 is a kid now to me.

But like, you know, if you're in your early twenties.

And you're in the NBA and a star, you have had cameras around you pretty much since

you were a teenager or at least mid teen.

So I just, I don't envy their position.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I mean, you just think about like the ways, you know, that

they're even getting caught up.

Right.

It's like.

For Anthony Ebert, it's, it's screenshots of his texts leaking to Twitter and

going viral with Jod's screenshots of an IG live, you know, Instagram live thing

where like, there's 300 viewers on the Instagram live, you know, it shouldn't,

it's not reaching a lot of people because that one person in that live knew that

it was Jod, knew that he was compromised.

You know, it gets shared, goes like crazy.

But is there any way that, you know, what, what, how do we fix it?

Like, how do we get these signature athletes, you know, their shoes

to kind of be more relevant again.

I think that the, I wouldn't say that they, they're not, they're just

not as relevant as they once were to the overall pie is still relevant.

Just not like the, it's not what is driving everything in the market.

Like night, like Michael Jordan sold running shoes.

Yeah.

He sold running shoes because it had the same logo on that

running shoe as was on his shoes.

Kind of thing.

Yeah.

We just don't like that type of influence isn't there as much as it once was.

So what it is, is that you also just have far more touch points that a consumer

has with a brand and across all interests and sports and everything like that.

I don't think we'll ever get to a point where we will go back to

the idea of one or two signature guys can define an entire brand.

I just don't think we're going to get to that.

It's a very, it's not just that it's crowded, it's just a competitive

market space and it's matured, you

know.

Do you think there's anything to less affinity between fans

and these athletes as well?

Well, I think, yeah, I do think that there's less affinity towards that.

I think that everybody kind of has had their affinity

spread across so many things.

You know, like it used to be really easy to see what somebody was, was

into, like they, you know, they would eat, sleep, breathe their local

baseball team or basketball team, and it was everything about that team.

They studied the ins and outs of people have more, they, they've

never had more opportunity to become.

So interested in so many things.

So as a company, it's how do you get yourself in, you know, in the right

position with as many different touch points as the consumer can possibly have.

And that was going to be my next question is as a media company,

you know, operator, like how are you?

What's your take on looking at capturing that attention in 2024 and

beyond?

I mean, for us, we have to stay true to ourselves.

Like, you know, you can quickly go down the rabbit hole and

try to chase too many things.

And I think what's best is to be very focused as to like what

matters most to your brand.

What is most relevant to be covering and really sticking to that.

Yeah.

Because yeah, there, there are a million different ways that one could chase and.

You know, make sneakers relevant to, you know, right.

Going

back to kind of the death of the signature athlete or not signature

athlete, but the sneaker, do you think there's a shift where almost like

the designer now or the designer in culture, somebody like Jerry Lorenzo

or Kanye is bigger than the athlete and they have more influence on a drop?

Cause like, I'm thinking about like, You saw it with Kanye and Adidas.

You see it with Jerry Lorenzo, now Adidas.

You see it with Pharrell and Louis Vuitton.

Would you do something where you're bringing in one of those designers to do

a collab with Jason Tatum or John Marant?

Because, like, nobody's going to the club and wearing the bronze.

Right?

Like, but they'll wear the Travis Scotts you have.

No, no, no.

I'm saying they never were.

Do you think there's something to do there where like, you could almost

like bridge these two together and they could piggyback off each other

for these drops and kind of make them

bigger?

Yeah, so there are three main chapters, I think, in the history

of namesake marketing and footwear.

The first one was athlete.

That the, the first signi, like the first professional athlete to have a, to have

a, to have namesake deal was Canadian badminton player named Jack Purcell.

Yeah, Jack.

And he had a BF Goodrich.

Yeah.

And I think this was 1920s, but it really, really took off with Michael Jordan 1985,

because that was the first time where it was a signature athlete, where it wasn't

just their name attached to a product.

Or to a marketing campaign, but like Nike created an emotion and a brand

around the athlete and his products.

That was very different from all that had done before.

A lot of them were namesake endorsement deals than creating a

brand within, around their athlete.

The second phase.

Is where I think the influence of pop culture and entertainment.

So I think of like the example of you know, the air force one, I

didn't grow up in an area where it had much in terms of air force ones.

I grew up in Fresno, California.

I didn't know the name of the shoe offhand, but I knew what was that

white shoe that I saw Jay Z always wear in, in the rock aware ads or

that I saw other hip hop guys wearing.

I knew what that white shoe was and as a teenager, I was in, I was, I

liked that shoe because of those individuals wearing the shoes, not

because Moses Malone wore them and won a championship in the eighties.

It was a basketball shoe, but like it was never

even got marketed because it took off in pop culture, like rap culture

and all that.

Exactly.

So we saw then in the two thousands S.

Dot Carter and Reebok.

And.

And that was honestly, Reebok went after entertainment when

they couldn't land LeBron.

Yeah.

So they went they went after, they got Jay Z and did the S Dot

Carter and then G Units right after.

And that was a really good move for them as a company, but it also really

created this new chapter that we then saw just explode when, with Kanye West.

Because I even go back to Michael Jordan and they

leveraged Spike Lee for that.

Right.

Like they leveraged Spike Lee and what he was doing in filmmaking to help elevate

that drop.

Well, that's what Nike does better than anybody is that they

create stories around the product.

So who better to tap than a movie maker?

Yeah.

So but so it's the second chapter, entertainment third.

I think is the, is the design of themselves where, and you

see people like rest in peace.

Virgil Abloh was one of those individuals where people were following the artist

and it didn't matter what the brand was.

It didn't even matter what the product was.

They were fans of the artist and their vision.

So I think of Virgil Abloh Pharrell Williams Jerry Lorenzo, Salehi Benbery,

like these are individuals who are able to create very, you know, different products.

And with different types of brands, different categories, and they

have, they are a brand in and to themselves based on their design.

And that's where I think like, imagine Devin Booker and Jerry

Lorenzo getting to work on the club.

That

drop would be so much, so much would crush.

Yeah.

Versus it just being deep book and Nike.

And then you have Nike as the engine, telling the stories behind

something like that.

Like you got to give the original creator like Lorenzo and then

D book being the athlete, like.

You got to give them the resources that Nike has at their disposal to then tell

that story, but they need the creative

freedom.

But on that note, I think what has been amiss by a lot of brands recently is

that I think they could do more to tell the stories behind the design of a lot

of the product, by the actual artists.

So I think of like what has been a lot, what has provided a lot of

longevity to the retro Jordan line.

Has been the storytelling and visible presence of Tinker Hatfield.

I think that has done so much for the, the long term legacy of, of the Jordan.

You know, with Tinker, I, I know that name and as, as a, you know,

I'm into sneakers, but I'm not so deep into it that I'm looking into the

designer of every shoe, but you know, you almost passively know that he was

the guy who invented Jordan's like, and I do think, you know, people want,

people are seeking more meaning and authenticity in their products these days.

And a lot of shoe companies could probably do well to incorporate that.

One that just, you know, every time it cracks me up that this didn't work.

But man, LeVar Ball was a visionary, huh?

I mean, big baller brand was the best idea, most forward thinking

idea with the worst execution of all

time.

Look, to have success in this space, I, you know, I appropriate

Phil Jackson's triangle offense.

Yeah, what you need is you need three primary things, right?

Number one, you need good product.

Number two, you need a really good go to market strategy and

marketing element around it.

The other thing that you need is you need some, you need good design or, or you're

sorry, you need good innovation and.

The thing that LaVar had was he was really strong on the market and the story,

but where he fell short was didn't have innovation, didn't have a good product.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I almost wonder if he was betting on his innovation

being the kind of full integrated distribution of we own the brand,

our athletes are telling the story.

All of that kind of, we own the media, you know, we had the reality TV show,

which was generating, they were getting paid to generate millions of impressions

on their brand which is insane, right?

I mean, but to your point, you know, once they lose the narrative and Lonzo

shoes are breaking, you know, every other summer league game, it seemed like

You can't win without a good product.

No, it really does start and end with product.

It has to be a good shoe.

And so

speaking of product, you know, last time you came into the office, you came

in some pretty fired 3D printed shoes.

Yes,

I did.

And so, you know, with that dynamic kind of arising, the

barrier of entry, having never been smaller to create a quality product.

Do you think that will eventually disrupt a lot of these big players?

Big time.

I think it will in specific categories.

You know, the 3d, at least the current way, the current tech

is right now, you're not able to create anything performance wise.

At this point that could easily change, but like at this point, no.

What about

the Adidas like runners that they just dropped?

Like they just made like, I think their first stab at a performance shoe.

Really?

Yeah, it's

like a Are you talking about the, the, the Ford

WD I

don't know.

That's, that, yeah, that, that one's been out.

That's the the forward.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That one's, I don't quote me.

I don't believe that's actually a 3D printed midsole.

But yeah.

But the they do have some innovation on running.

That's insane.

Like, they have shoes that are banned.

You can't compete in them.

They have like springs in them.

Yeah.

I actually just saw a guy here in Austin did a he did a test to see and.

I can't, I think he like shaved like 15 seconds off his mile time wearing

these shoes that are banned, which I mean, I, when I saw that they

were banned, I'm like, how is Adidas not like really leaned into this?

Like it's the Michael Jordan story, like 2.

0, like, yeah,

that's, that's literally how APL started, you know, APL is

a brand out of LA and their initial marketing was our shoes make you.

Jump higher.

So we got banned by the NBA.

Yeah.

So naturally everyone's like, I need that.

Yeah.

I'm wearing

these in one game.

Yeah.

APL's paying

all my fines.

They are not banned in Texas UIL basketball.

Yeah.

No.

I still couldn't duck though.

Okay.

So 3D printing can change it.

What are some other ways that Nike is getting disrupted right now?

Well, I think that Nike is getting disrupted and others.

It's not just Nike.

It's other big players.

Like in the running category, there is an insane amount of innovation happening.

Right.

Right.

It's, it's insane how in just like five or six years, how much you've

seen just two brands, Hoka and on take market share and explode.

There's so much innovation happening in that space right now,

the big guys need to be tripling, quadrupling down on innovation.

I think that part of it has to do with pandemic, you know, like there,

when you don't have people who can go into offices, it's much harder

to create and innovate new product.

But I think that there is there needs much more innovation to be done.

That's really when I see that swoosh, like something that I think

of when I see it is innovation.

And I don't feel that in the past couple of years we've gotten

what we used to get out of it.

I don't,

I don't feel like I see anyone wearing Nikes running anymore.

It's, I still do.

Yeah.

But that's because I feel like I have such an attachment to

Nike that I don't know if I'll ever, they have to do something really

fucked up for me to detach myself from Nike and not want to wear Nike.

The Alpha fly three is a really good.

Yeah.

I got those.

And then I also have a Vaporfly 3.

I have the Vaporflies.

Yeah.

And it's a good shoe.

It's a really, it's a good shoe.

But I hear what you're saying.

You right now, what you do see is you see so many brands.

Yeah.

And running brands really, you know, like running specific brands,

having a good time in that space.

Yeah.

It's and I'm only, I'm even talking about, it seems like

run clubs have, you know, exploded kind of in popularity here.

And I see just without even trying, you know, three of them congregate like right

by where my apartment is here in Austin.

Yeah.

And so I'm.

Always just kind of looking at their shoes and looking at like what they're,

what's on their feet and it does seem like Hoka, Salcone, Brooks you know, on

obviously like are really dominating that space, but just those run club spaces.

And I think it might be kind of an interesting point to what you said,

which is, you know, I still see Nike's all the time is you're in a different

sort of sports community than me.

Like you're seeing like crossfitters and people that are kind of like

more performance training and I know you do a lot of the high rock stuff.

For

CrossFit, I, there's a, another brand, there's two

brands that are like blowing up.

The first one's Rad Global.

I'm sure you're familiar with them.

And they take like a really good approach of their drops and almost

treating it like streetwear and street like luxury fashion with what

they're doing and their branding style.

They've done a phenomenal job.

The other is Noble, but I don't think they're cat, they're at the level.

of a Rad right now and like Rad's younger than them, but they've taken

some of the top players in the game, but they're also going into running now too.

I'm sure you've seen, seen them, but

Quick aside did you see the, you saw the news today

about Tom Brady and Noble?

Yeah.

About merging.

Yeah.

That's What are your thoughts on that?

I have to read more on the details of it.

I don't, I don't.

Never really saw Tom Brady's brand much.

I mean, I've been familiar with Noble for quite a while.

Yeah.

The thing that Noble had was they had this really good strength in CrossFit.

Yeah.

But, and like this really intense like strength training.

They didn't have a lot outside

of that.

Yeah, which is interesting that they would turn to Tom Brady.

It was kind of like a, you know, plant based thing.

Yeah,

I mean, but also the guy who's the most has more hardware than

any pro athlete of a major sport.

So I mean, like you're getting some attachment to a really big name with that.

I think that.

I, I would, I'd have to see the numbers.

I don't think that they're doing an exceptional job in the women's business

compared to a lot of other girls.

I

also think that they're trying to expand past CrossFit.

They've been known as a CrossFit shoe.

They sponsored the, the, it's now the Noble CrossFit Games, but last year they

were the sponsor of the, the Combine.

Yes.

That I was just going to bring that up.

Yeah.

That is a

huge move.

And then now it's for your partner to be

riding was on the wall a little bit there.

Well,

I think, yeah, when I saw the Tom Brady news, I was like, Oh, we're

going to see a lot more football.

And they kind of have a sick logo that bull with the bull.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So what's crazy about noble is do you know the guy who bought noble?

His name's Mike repo.

So he actually was the founder of vitamin water.

Interesting.

And then not only did he, he sold vitamin water for a few billion and

then, so, you know, what does any good entrepreneur do once they sell it?

They just create it again and then he founded body armor

actually and sold, sold that.

And then I remember because we were doing some research for the pod

back in the day about like, what are some founders that, you know, had a

really successful outcome and then.

You know, what can we learn from the next thing that they want to pursue?

And so when I was looking at people, he, you know, created

kind of this differentiated, like healthy Gatorade twice, pretty much.

And then, okay, what does he look at now?

He buys a majority stake in noble.

And proceeds to kind of invest in this CrossFit brand, which is for

the alternative professional athlete.

And it's just interesting.

Now they got Tom Brady, like they're probably about to make a real push here.

Yeah, I think that they have, they have an opportunity to

do, do something big with that for

sure.

Yeah, but I think going back to your point where I think they lack is innovation.

Their product has been standstill for, for years.

Like, I don't think it's changed

much.

No, I mean, there's, there's not a ton of in, there's not a lot of

to innovate in like workout wear.

I mean, you can make it close more breathable, you can get some

different cuts, but then when it comes to footwear and CrossFit, like.

You're not going to create a new revolutionary style of

cushioning for a CrossFit shoe.

You want the opposite of that.

You want as close to the ground and with different types of

flexibility as you can get.

So I think like they're, the way they are going to have to push innovation

is they're going to have to get outside of that space into some

other sports, which I think they can.

I mean, I think they could go into cleats and do well.

I mean, they really, I think of like where Noble is, is very similar,

probably actually ahead of where Under Armour was in the late 90s.

So for them to all of a sudden become, you know, a cleat maker

wouldn't be that difficult.

And I could see easily you know, teenage boys who are the

biggest buyer of football cleats.

Yeah.

Signing into that brand.

Yeah.

And I mean, Tom Brady kind of, you know, he's the closest

thing football has to Jordan.

But he never really turned it into that, you know, brand that people were wearing.

I mean, he had Brady brand and, you know, he's always wearing the

Under Armour, but you know, Nike's the dominant player in that space.

It's not even close.

Right.

That'd be fascinating to see if they really start to turn

it into the footwear side.

How do you think the commerce, I'm switching gears, sorry, but like,

how do you, how do you think commerce is switching for a media brand or monetizing

is switching for a media brand and

ongoing?

Well, I can tell you a list of a bunch of media outlets that

didn't figure that one out.

Yeah.

Who have a, have a bunch of layoffs happening.

Yeah.

You know, the traditional model with, with media is attention and you

leverage against that attention with.

Sponsorship.

And it's like, okay, we're going to put your brand in front of these eyeballs.

And on television, it was the 32nd ad spot.

Well, people just don't watch as much TV anymore.

First, the DVR happened so I could skip through the commercials.

So I could get my content for my monthly subscription and without seeing the ads.

Now people don't even want to do that.

They just want the clips, right?

Getting those clips on social media.

And even now, like, a lot of the ads that are served on social, people

just flip and scroll right past them.

It's not like, only YouTube is the only platform where like, you are

forced to see at least part of this.

At least five seconds.

Yeah, five seconds.

You're going to have to see this logo from Liberty Mutual, but no I

think that media platforms need to think about themselves more of that.

You know, they need to be thinking about having a, they need to, I

think, do more work on business development of like developing some

of the products or partnering with.

I think that's, that's what is going to be the future for

a lot of, a lot of media out.

So

like roll, roll call there, you know, New York times,

no, not doing it well, like.

Better than others, but yeah, not, not, not super great.

You know, they rely, they do a lot of revenue through their,

their subscription model.

You know, the people pay for the digital subscription to the New

York times and they have the other products like they're cooking and

they're, are there any media companies that you think are really

executing on this well right now?

And would you consider some of these like day and age

creators now media companies?

Versus just being like a large creator because they could be one of the

ones that are doing it well as well.

Yeah, I think that you have some independent creators or individuals

that they're not really an individual.

They have huge teams around them.

Yeah.

I mean, like I think of, you know, like what the Paul brothers have

done is a good example of it.

You know, they had the Maverick brand forever ago, right?

Like that was one of the first, like the products that they're wearing.

It's not someone else's product.

It's their own, their own brand.

And I think that a lot of have integrated in other products or

projects that they're, that they have equity in to organically push.

Now I will say, I don't, I think that there is a, there is a.

An unfortunate thing that there's not as many disclosures probably being

made to audiences as to what is paid for placement or what placement these

people have a vested interest in.

You know, we saw that happen in the crypto space, how many creators had

their own token or they were paid to, to shill a token kind of thing.

Yeah.

So.

Speaking of like brands that are like executing really well.

In today's day and age.

Like, are there any sneaker brands that you think are actually adapting

to kind of where consumers are and like what marketing looks like these days?

Cause it seems like, you know, Nike may have, they've obviously, I don't know.

I would say Nike's peaked and now they're either plateauing or slightly

declining, but what are some brands that are kind of up and coming and

like doing it right these days?

Tracksmith.

Oh yeah, by Jordan Rodgers, by any chance?

I, I've been on a Tracksmith

binge right now.

I saw he just talked about it.

I was talking with somebody about it, like, last week, and then I

saw he just did a video about it.

I just saved

so much of their content.

They're like doing the Nike Kind of like a Nike play, like they're

specifically on the content, like the stories that they're telling these

guys are so tough, but scroll like two months down and it's a completely

different brand than what you'll see on social now, which is super interesting.

Yeah,

I think Tracksmith is doing is doing one of the best jobs

in marketing and storytelling.

Yes.

You go onto their website, go onto their social media.

And they are doing what classic Nike did.

It told a story.

It made you feel an emotion.

Yes.

And their brand revolved around

that.

There's a video that I watched probably 20 times this weekend of this girl running

in the snow and she has like just ice on her face and she's just trekking through.

They have a beautiful, like I'm getting goosebumps thinking about it.

Yeah.

Beautiful voiceover, like totally written.

And this isn't, you know, some Goggins like voiceover of her running.

Like they're telling these stories.

There's no product placements.

But I literally started shopping just because of these little 15 second videos.

And I've, you know what I mean, like this is the first time I've seen Tracksmith

up until this point and I felt that way just because of these little 15

second videos.

I'm, I'm literally about to cop one of these on the podcast.

Yeah,

yeah, on the podcast.

Straight up.

Live on the podcast.

Yeah.

They are doing a great job.

And they have a distinct design that is true to who they are.

Yeah.

Like they're a North East.

Running brand.

Yeah.

And they have this, you know, Ivy league, varsity look like, it just

like sporting rich a little bit.

Yeah.

That luxury nostalgia is very in right now.

Any other, any other brands you're thinking about?

I think New Balance has been doing from the majors.

Yeah.

I think New Balance has been doing such an exceptional job in the past several years.

Yeah.

And it's not just the storytelling, it's product as well.

And it's across so many categories.

Yeah.

Like they are, I I've never seen new balance do as well as.

Yeah.

As they are right now.

Like it, it really is so different.

Like I, if you told me 10 years ago, this is where new balance would be today.

I'd say, hell no, no

chance.

And I feel like they somehow got away from, they were part of meme culture.

Like you were a dad, right?

Like if you wore new balances.

And then

dad's shoes also got pretty sick recently.

But I think they did.

They were smart to lean into that.

Yes, they leaned into that.

But while they were also leaning into that.

They were, they were going in another direction with their creative

projects and into baseball and basketball in a really heavy way.

And then they, they really actually kind of, there was like this beautiful

thing, this juxtaposition of the, they were leaning into the dad shoe while

also saying, we're not just a dad shoe.

I

feel like they converted the dad shoe to now it was like

this slow transition from dad shoe to you're the cool dad.

Right.

Like the, and that happened with partnering with Amelie on Dior and

like these other brands to create this feeling of this is a luxury shoe.

Now, like this goes with some of your best fits and now, I mean, I

bought my first pair of new balances.

I would have never bought a pair of new balances.

Like you saying 10 years ago, it would have never been on the radar.

No, I, and now like, I feel it's going to Cali with us, like it's

hundred percent just part of the fit.

Like I

have to take it.

No, I, I love my new balances, but I will say I threw 'em out once Oren

just started clowning me for him.

I mean, he, he's got like the, the Orange County dad aesthetic on point.

I, I just, I couldn't take it.

I had to get rid of him.

One of the things I'm, I'm super interested in is like, do you

know the history of sneaker drops?

How did we get here and was it always what we see now or was it.

I mean, was it different night, you know, 1990 to early 2000s?

Yeah.

Well, I mean, in, in the eighties, they didn't have the sneakers app.

So things were a little bit different than the way that I've known sneaker releases

pretty much my entire purchasing life.

Was there was a date that was set that they were first available at

the mall store kind of thing, and you'd go there and you'd get them,

and there were oftentimes, you know, pretty long lines for certain shoes.

There weren't not a lot of shoes commanded that kind of demand.

But when we were studying it, we found that it was in 1997.

It was, it was published.

It was 97 or 98.

It was towards the end of Michael's second run in Chicago and they

had made the conscious decision.

To make the release on a Saturday.

And it was because they didn't want kids skipping school to go get the shoes.

And I had heard, this was actually from a friend of mine who had a sneaker shop

in, in Houston, Teresa Walden, she told me, cause she had bought the black cement

threes when they first came out in 1988.

And she had said that they dropped on a Monday, and she said it was

that the Bulls had played NBA on NBC the day before on Sunday, and

then the shoes came out on Monday.

Now, whether that was like a nationwide thing, I'm not sure, but she said at

least there in Houston at that time.

A lot of the times that the Jordans were first available was the day after

NBA on NBC, but I don't have anything written to confirm it, but like that,

you know, that's one of those theories.

I mean, it feels like it should be true.

Yeah.

I mean, there were a lot of times that it really, the shoes,

they didn't have releases.

It just got put out there.

Yeah.

Release dates on Air Force Ones didn't start till like 2007 before that every

calendar would say like the first of whatever month, cause they were

considered like the April delivery or the May delivery or the June delivery,

which it was like no retailer was forced to hold it until a certain date.

So as soon as they came in, I'll get cool.

Let's just go put it on the wall and sell it.

There's

crazy though, that matching up with like similar, something

that you said before the pod.

You know, now we're watching 20, 20 different games at a time versus

back then, you know, everybody's watching that Bulls game, right?

And then it's going to the drop and like that.

And that probably has to do something with this feeling of Devin Booker

doesn't have as much love as a Michael Jordan because the whole

world was watching Michael Jordan.

Does that play into what's happening now?

I mean, I think that.

I think that with respect to Michael and NBA at that time.

Maybe Michael's not the best.

No, but I mean, I think like what was different about that time is that

you had far fewer channels, right?

Yeah.

You also had far fewer games that were available nationwide.

So it was one, it was a, it was a spectacle like, you know, that you, if

you were a basketball fan, NBA on NBC on Sunday was very similar to like Monday

night football for a football fan.

Yeah.

It was like appointment television.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So.

And that also was not just a place where the players were, that

was also a really great place.

If you were a marketer, talk to that audience.

And that's where, like, the best Jordan commercial of all time

were running against sports and running against television, network

television in that era, where you had 32nd mini stories put together

by Spike Lee about, is it the shoes?

And you don't

see that

now.

No, you don't.

You don't see that.

You don't, but I mean, it's kind of like.

I remember a line my brother had challenged me with years ago.

He's like, your blog is going to be nothing more than a

print magazine in a few years.

Like start thinking about what's next.

Same thing goes for a commercial spot today.

A 30 second ad, unless it's running during Superbowl.

Yeah.

Who's seeing it?

Yeah, for sure.

It's not, there's just not as much of an available audience.

What would you

do?

Would you run ads like in the areas that that game is playing, but on

social during a game or something?

Because like during a commercial, they're going to social.

Like what do you think the fix is there?

Well, I think that the way you're going to get people, it's

not just about the impressions that you get by running it on social.

You got to make sure that impression is actually making an impression.

For sure.

Yeah.

So you need to create content that is going to capture that audience and hold

them to hear the message or see the story.

And so that means on each platform, you're going to have to do something differently.

Yeah.

But what I do kind of like miss is the idea that there was.

The ability to look back at ads and find them, I find that, you know, like

I can find old ads of every pretty much Barkley, Griffey Penny, Jordan ad.

I can find them all.

And even with Reebok as well and Adidas, but like in today's world

where so much is made just for digital, once that campaign runs.

Unless somebody at an ad agency keeps a copy and throws it up

on a Vimeo or on some drive.

Like it's kind of just gone.

There was a social campaign that Nike and Foot Locker did

with Kyrie a couple years ago.

I tried finding it.

I'm like, I can't find this video.

It was made for social, ran on social.

About the only thing I could hope for is that if they posted it on their account,

I'd have to scroll back several years.

And that's if it's still up there.

So,

yeah, it's almost like the meaning of it is so much harder to

derive these days, you know, because there's so much overwhelming people

at all times versus, you know, when you saw an iconic ad on, you know,

the once a week NBA on NBC on Sundays.

You're like, it makes such an impression to you because you almost have to,

like, you have to capture that moment in your head or else it's gone.

You

do.

And I think, I think right now, look it up.

I think that like, there's also, we're getting that point.

Like, I think we hit peak social recently.

I think that we're starting to hit the peak of influence through digital only.

I think that right now I've noticed just at least with myself.

Out of home, a good out of home ad.

Far more impactful than ever.

And I think it really is that I'm not as likely to be distracted.

So

for sure, I think there's just a big difference where you were talking

about with the, the ads that are getting put out now, it's more of a volume

play versus an impact play, right?

There are some ads that Nike puts out and the impact is there.

And Colin Kaepernick one was.

An example of that is when I could still search and go find, and that

was three years ago or something.

But in between maybe Colin Kaepernick and till now, I can't recall another Nike ad.

Like another real, other than maybe this, this most recent, that's Mamba.

Like that's one of the most recent ones that I feel like I

remember, I remember the whole.

But that's still playing into Nike's challenge right now is that

they can only live off of retro stuff.

Like Kobe is not one of their signature athletes anymore.

And their most successful ad was from, you know, his brand.

Like, I mean, it seems like, but they, they did this, right?

Like there used to be the pressure of going viral was not like this

algorithmically driven thing.

It was more of a grassroots thing.

Like you think about the Uncle Drew stuff, like.

The, the KPI for going viral used to be shareability, not boost by the algorithm.

And so I think that has really changed the incentive structure as well when

they're making content is, you know, it used to be so shared, like you

have to, you used to have to share it because I had to be like, yo, Alex,

did you see that uncle drew stuff?

It was like super entertaining.

And now, you know, it's all about the hook and retention and like keeping someone

on your 45 second short form video.

And to your point earlier, it's just harder to tell a really compelling

story in that short of a time frame.

Is this one of those

moments where you think you should zig when everyone's

agging, where if everybody's doing these retention driven videos?

Go and create more just storytelling in like impactful

campaigns and videos versus.

Yeah.

No one has ever stood out by standing in.

You have to like, and it doesn't mean you abandon everything else.

That's the one beautiful thing about digital is that you can run

in parallel two different campaigns.

For sure.

But I think that like, absolutely, you should be doing something

different than what is the status quo.

Yeah.

That has always been what's worked best for.

Some of the biggest brands.

Yeah.

There's a, there's a company.

I I've seen this guy, Tom Shea on Twitter and he runs this

company called agile media group.

So they're out of home.

They, they put ads on trucks and have you seen this guy?

And so, you know, one of the ads that he did the other day was for

this company called Jolie skincare, which does shower heads, shower

heads, and it was a dirty ass truck.

And he just goes, this drug is cleaner than your shower filter.

Yes.

I was like, damn, bro.

It's because it's so, it's visual, it's memorable.

It's not something that you're used to seeing.

So there's a sense of novelty to it.

And the really good outdoor advertising makes its way to social.

Right.

It does.

Right.

Similar to what you're saying.

Similar to Oatly.

They just, they just had a bunch of good campaigns.

I think in Paris or London.

That again, they made their way to social.

And if you could do that, like.

Those are brains.

I remember I can't,

I can't tell you how many billboards I saw when I drove from

Colorado to Texas that were not used, you know, like that, that's

just a completely dead medium, which is still getting the same amount

of impressions that it was before.

Yeah.

Right.

Like people are still driving.

No algorithm change.

People are on the road, like, but.

You know, what's the innovation there?

Like if you create a hype, a super compelling piece of creative shirt,

maybe it's going to take some thought and some skill, but like it could

really help your brand stand out for

sure.

And I think another thing that is another, in addition to out of home is five

events and, you know, organic gatherings.

Like I, we were talking about run groups earlier.

There is no larger run group than when Nike does an event here in town.

Yeah.

It is.

Oh my gosh.

The last one I was at was like at least 400 or 500 people.

Yeah.

It was massive.

Yeah.

And that was the, what I felt was so good with that.

It's like, not only, yeah, people wear some other brands, but a lot of

people do pull out their Nikes for it.

But what I think was great about that live event was people had

an extended period of time.

With an actual emotion and a feeling and connection to a brand.

Yep.

And, you know, you just can't get that same kind of thing through a screen.

Yeah.

I think you can tee up some storytelling through it, but I think that getting

people to engage in person is a really special thing that people can pull off.

It goes back to your retail,

right?

Like creating the retail front.

I, one thing I'm thinking about big time for, for marketing exam and it's

just like, how do we, you know, we have an audience, we have eyeballs,

how do we create the community feel like, are we are we, is that

our next layer of monetization?

Are we actually building a slack community that has a lot of in real life events,

a lot of in person events, a lot of things that, you know, we're, we're

going to a lodge and staying there for a week to talk about business, but it is.

You know, 50 men or whatever, 50, 50 marketers coming in.

I don't know why I said that.

50 bros in

a cabin, man.

But like thinking about that side of things.

Well, it becomes a product that you then sell through, you know, like

your brand is attached to, and it's also so easy to integrate with all

the content throughout the year.

So I think Vox does a good job of this.

You know, a lot of their podcasts are talking about like their, their

Fox, you know, gatherings or their festivals in the hybrid fitness world.

The RMR team have a podcast called RMR training.

And these, so it's Rich Ryan, Megan Jacoby and Ryan Kent, the

three, three of like some of the best high rocksers in the world.

And they also do a bootcamp once a year.

And that kind of becomes a product that.

through their connection, their following, they get to leverage and

push against to sell as, as a thing.

And it's this in person thing, like, are they going to draw

all their audience to it?

No way.

But it is a product that I think good media has in today's

world, which is creating that offline experience or offline

engagement.

Last question I have.

Do you think High Rocks is going to take over

CrossFit?

Without question.

Really?

Why?

Without question.

I think that why High Rocks will pass, will pass CrossFit is because

it is far more friendly to women.

And it's like, I should say less intimidating to women.

So I think CrossFit has only been able to grow so much because I think a lot of

women feel very intimidated by the sport.

And whereas Hyrox is, is not the same, it's much like, it's not as heavy on

strength training as it is endurance.

Interesting.

So I think it take, it's like, it's also, it's easier to compete in.

Like, I mean, there are a lot of people who were in the race that I

was in where, you know, they're not, they're just getting into things.

And it's a really grueling race, but they're still able to finish it.

I don't, I mean, there are a lot of CrossFit lifts I couldn't even do one

rep.

Yeah.

So it's like, well, pfft.

Yeah.

Can't compete in that.

Do you think it loses some of like the, kind of like the, I don't

want to say the alpha, that's the wrong word, but it is entertaining to watch

somebody power clean like 400 pounds.

Right, right.

And you might, you're not going to get that in,

in High Rocks.

I don't know, man.

You watch a race with Hunter McIntyre.

That guy is freaking monster.

Is that the

guy that Hunter Sheriff, that guy?

Yes.

Gotcha.

I feel like CrossFit is a really like, you know.

Beefier sport, maybe.

Why are you looking me in the eyes

when you said that?

Come on, man.

I don't know,

dude.

I definitely wasn't looking

at me.

He looked right at me like it's

a

beefier sport.

But I do think that like alienates some people.

Like there's a very specific, like, I don't know.

So maybe high rocks does have like a broader appeal.

Yeah,

it, it, they definitely, I think it does.

The thing that I find with High Rocks is that there are a lot of really good

high rockers who were great runners.

Mm.

So it is a sport where, what, and this is where I think like they have, they

have a better on-ramp by design, which is a runner can become a, a decent high

rocks racer way faster than someone can become decent in, in CrossFit.

CrossFit.

I mean, it just takes an immense amount of strength and

immense amount of training that.

I think keeps a lot of people out of

it.

Well, Matt, dude, this has been incredible.

I know we could go another 45 minutes shooting this shit.

But it's been incredible.

We'll have to just make this a reoccurring thing.

Hey, I'm just down the road, man.

Sure.

Absolutely.

Appreciate having you, man.

Well, you know, plug yourself on social.

I mean, obviously at nice kicks.

Yeah, at

nice kicks.

I'm at Matt Halfhill.

I'm pretty much only using Instagram now at this point.

So it's the best place to find

me.

Absolutely.

And then as always if you do like this episode, if you like Sweat Equity,

leave a review send us a screenshot.

And on the next episode where we don't have a fantastic guest like this we'll

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So send us a screenshot at.

At Brian underscore bloom.

I think that's it on instagram and twitter and then alex, where can they find

you?

Yeah, and then hit me at alex garcia underscore atx and it's the same on all

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apple podcast, please leave a review for pan We'll catch y'all next week