Foreign hi, I'm Annemarie Zanzel, coach, ordained minister, grandma, mom of four, and a queer woman married to my lovely gorgeous wife after I came out later in life this is Coming out and Beyond LGBTQIA Stories, a podcast for everyone exploring identity, queerness, and what it means to live more truthfully, no matter our age or stage.

We share stories, stories of coming out, starting over, resiliency, how to navigate relationships, grief, joy, and building lives that actually fit us as human beings.

No labels required, just curiosity, courage, and a little faith in this journey.

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Up@Annmariezantzel.Com hello everybody, and welcome back to another episode of Coming out and Beyond LGBTQIA Stories.

I'm very excited to welcome a special guest today.

His name is David Cunningham.

He is a renowned transformational teacher, spiritual practitioner, and a lifelong advocate for humanity.

From humble beginnings in rural Pennsylvania to leading arguably the number one transformational program on six continents, David's impact spans over 30 years as a senior program leader with Landmark Worldwide, where he helped more than 500,000 people unlock new levels of freedom, authenticity, and love.

His leadership has supported communities in healing, executive leaders in evolving, and people from all walks of life in rediscovering what truly matters in their lives.

David's life is also a testament to courage and service.

As a former special education teacher, LGBTQ rights advocate, and spiritual guide, he continues to create powerful new platforms for change.

He has founded the Love Matters collaboration of movement Anchoring love as the preeminent way of being.

This fall, he'll launch the Awakening, a flagship transformational weekend designed to help people break free from shame, judgment, and separation so they can live from love fully and freely.

David is also spearheading Love Goes to the Capitol, a national initiative to send a copy of his book to every member of the US Congress, inviting public leaders into a deeper conversation on compassion, humanity, and the power of love to guide public service.

His book, your Love Does Matter A Journey to New Consciousness and Expanding your Love Footprint is a distilled summary of all of his life's work.

The book offers a profound path to healing, forgiveness, loving freely and fully, and spiritual growth helping each of us reclaim the truth that we are here to love.

Today we'll explore David's incredible journey, his transformational teachings, and how each of us can expand with our own love footprint in the world.

David, welcome to the show.

Thank you so much.

Wonderful to be with you and to.

Everybody watching, well, it is wonderful to have you here.

I have been working with people around transformation for a long time.

So it's really nice to talk to somebody that does this work and has done it so successfully for so a long time.

So I'm really looking forward to learning from you today.

So thank you so much for being on the show.

So, David, everybody starts this show by talking a little bit about their coming out story and I would love to hear yours.

Let's see.

It was back in the 1970s, so, as many from the community would say, probably knew I was gay from a very early age, right?

But back in those days, it just didn't exist.

I didn't know anybody else was gay.

I didn't know that it existed.

I maybe saw one or two things on TV while I was growing up that.

But it wasn't well portrayed at all.

And so I spent most of my teenage years and, you know, young adult years denying it, denying that I was gay.

In fact, making a promise to myself every year on my birthday.

That's it.

I'll never think that way again.

I'll never have those slots again.

I'll never, you know, want that again.

And so that was back in the 1970s.

And it was.

A funny thing happened.

One day I was at work and I got this phone call.

And the voice, the other end was a man.

He says, hi.

He says, you don't know me, but I know you.

I've met you.

And I go, okay.

He goes, there's something else I don't know that you don't know.

I go, what's that?

He goes, you're gay.

He says, and I want to have dinner with you.

I literally went, okay.

Okay.

So.

And what I didn't share was by that point I was already married, still woman, and had a young child.

But it was that immediate of a response for me was like, okay.

And that started probably about two years of really difficult living of having gay encounters, feeling very guilty about it, promising myself I'd never do it again, having a secret from my wife, et cetera.

Very difficult couple of years until I met one man and, you know, again saw him and then promised I would myself never see him again.

Didn't give him my whole name.

I mean, really.

But somehow the next day he called me.

He figured out who I was, my last name, and where I worked, and then called me.

And it scared me.

Of course it did.

Because how'd he find me?

Right?

But he was very good.

But he says, I don't want to scare you.

He says, but I would like to see you again.

And I said, okay.

Right.

And then there was a third time and a fourth time, and then all of a sudden, Em happened I didn't know could happen, which is I began to fall in love with him.

And I didn't know that was possible.

I didn't know that I could fall in love with a man.

I really didn't.

It never occurred to me.

And I always thought there was just something missing, because with all my straight friends, as they got married, they were talking how in love they were and how wonderful it was, and I was like, it's not quite the same for me.

Right.

Yeah, right.

Because you were.

You were trying to love somebody who wasn't the correct person.

Sexual orientation, I get that.

And I fell in love with a man.

It was like, oh, my gosh.

This is.

This is what it feels like.

It was.

It really was startling to me, but it was like, once I saw.

That was like, okay, that's.

There's no choice here.

I. I got.

There's, you know, like, I can't deny this.

And, you know, as I had that very difficult conversation with my wife and.

Did she know anything?

I mean, had you guys talked about anything?

No.

She was quite surprised, but made immediate choice.

If that's the way it is, you know, we're not, you know, she wanted a divorce, and.

Which was difficult, but in hindsight, probably was the best way to go about it.

It was.

It was.

Yeah.

And.

And that was it.

And then.

Can I ask you a couple of questions?

Because hindsight being 40 years for the women, the people that are listening to my podcasts, a lot of people are married, and they're thinking about coming out.

Do you have any regrets about coming out?

No.

None.

Not one.

Not one.

It is.

Has gave me a life where I got to be my fullest self and express myself, be true to myself.

And, you know, I've been married now to my husband for 31 years.

We have this extraordinary life.

There's not an ounce of regret.

The Only regret I have is that I handled it badly.

Abrupt and somewhat like self protective.

I didn't take good enough care of my wife as she was going through what she was going through in our, in our separation.

My only regret is I didn't handle it really well.

Now that's all been resolved and she and I are very connected now and our relationship is very nice relationship.

But that's the regret I have is I didn't handle it well.

But the choice to come out, zero regret.

I would not change a thing about it.

So you have a grown child now.

How has it affected his life?

Because that's what people are really concerned.

And also what I want to say is that you said something really interesting.

You said I didn't take care of my wife well enough.

And the thing is, is that when we are on this journey, it is impossible to take care of our spouse because we're going through so much on our own.

And really it is the responsibility of our spouse to find the support and services that they need.

So now your son, your child is grown.

How, how was his life for them?

Like, like when you look back on it for him and I probably need to talk to him about this, but like when you look back at it, like how did it affect your child and how did you guys navigate everything?

Because honestly, now there's more and more people coming out later in life.

So there's more and more kids out there that have parents that are like all of a sudden coming out as not straight.

But in the 70s, it was still a big deal and especially right after, you know, the AIDS crisis came along.

So it was a huge deal.

How did that all go?

I mean, that was a lot, David, to navigate.

My goodness, gosh, God bless you.

I'll tell you the end result and then we'll go back to the beginning, right?

But the end result was when my husband and I got married.

My son was my best man and his toast was that my dad taught me how to love.

That's how it turned out.

Okay.

And he's a.

Our relationship is profound and beautiful and yeah, he's thriving and I have two grandchildren, 23 year old twins that are just beautiful.

And so that's the way it turned out.

Now during the whole process, given that my wife and I struggled in our relationship, I ended up not being with him as much as I would have wanted, as he would have wanted.

So during his teenage years, he resented that I wasn't there enough, which I completely understand.

But I learned something back there.

Anne Marie is that I learned to just keep loving.

That's all.

Keep loving.

So, you know, I went through a period where he didn't really want to talk to me and didn't have time for me.

I would just either leave him a phone message or a text message literally every day.

But a message that didn't demand any response.

It wasn't like, how are you?

Or when can I see you?

Nothing like that.

No questions, no demands, just let him know I so message that said, let's, I'm thinking of you, sending you my love.

That's it.

Every day.

I think that was really important.

I just kept making sure that he heard my love with no demand on him about it.

Just he heard my love, he heard my love, heard my love.

And I think that made a big difference.

So, you know, and I think it was difficult for him.

The thing that I was gay was not difficult for him.

I'll tell you a funny little story is I think he was, oh my gosh, 12.

No younger than that.

I think he was more like nine.

And he, I lived in Chicago, he lived in Connecticut and he came to visit me for a whole summer and I had him in a summer camp, a day camp.

It was right near my apartment in Chicago.

And I think it was the second day I picked him up from camp.

Another little boy came running up to him named Adam.

And he said to my son, is David.

He said, david, David, is it true what you said about your daddy today?

And David looked at me and looked back at him and goes, what?

And Adam said, you said that your daddy's gay.

And David looked back at me and looked back at him and looked back at me and he said, well, of course it is, isn't it, daddy?

And walked away completely disinterested.

Right?

Like, of course it is, right?

Yeah.

But he's also turned out to be, you know, a pretty.

It's shaped his social political view as well.

He is a staunch protector of gay rights.

He, he will not tolerate any anti gay sentiment.

He just will not tolerate it.

He's very, very clear where he stands in the matter.

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Because your love deserves more than just getting by.

It deserves to grow.

That's wonderful.

And as a mother who has gone through some ups and downs with my kids around all of this, I understand so much about what you're talking about.

About like we have to continually show up as, as loving parents.

Even sometimes when it's hard and we're angry sometimes, I mean, you know, we get angry at our kids.

We're human beings.

And so being able to be a loving presence, even when they're saying no, it can be hard.

But also too sometimes I think we take it all on.

And a lot of times that's normal for teenagers to like say, dad, stay away.

And then, and then another quick end was I guess when he was 12 or 13.

Let's see.

Yeah, no, he would have been 12 years old.

I had a partner who died of AIDS and David came to the funeral and he got there a little bit late.

So like a 12 year old boy, he walked in with his kind of necktie off to the side, his half his shirt tail out of his pants.

He walked in, but he walked in with his match car box, you know, match car toys, wanted to put them in the coffin.

With Hayden, it was like, so he understood, he was compassionate, he was impacted by the AIDS epidemic from that perspective himself.

And it touched his heart.

And he was a beautiful human being throughout all that.

Sounds like he's like his dad.

So one of the things I've talked about and for people who will come out later in life, some people, they come out and they just come out.

Then there are the people where it is an incredible transformational experience.

Like to me, I call it like a spiritual awakening.

Even though I'd been to divinity school, was ordained, but accepting my queerness was a profound, profound spiritual experience and changed me in ways that I was totally unexpected.

My, my ability for compassion has skyrocketed since then.

You know, to experience compassion for others.

This transformation that you went through at maybe your early 30s, like 20s at the time.

And how did that experience lead to where you ended up working in transformation full time?

Well, let's see, it was the timing was that just about the time I came out, I also participated in my own first real transformational program.

It was called the S Training.

Back then was an infamous program back in the 70s and 80s called the S Training.

But I think when I came out Emory, the thing was the freedom.

I am never, it was kind of like I am never going to suppress myself again.

I am never going to be in the closet about anything again, it was like, okay, this is my birthright and it's my.

Also my obligation to humanity to be free and to stand for freedom.

So that was my.

About coming out.

Then I did my first transformational program.

And there's a point in that program where it was like the last day.

And it was probably about 300 people in a hotel ballroom that had been together for four days.

Right.

In a conversation.

And I just remember there was a certain point on the last day where everybody in that room loved everybody in that room.

It was pure acceptance.

Acceptance of everybody from every walk of life.

It was an amazing.

Oh, it really could be.

It really could be this.

That everybody on earth is accepted just the way they are.

It was, it could see.

It was right there happening in front of my eyes.

And so that experience then led me to wanting to lead that program and provide that for people around the world.

So it is possible that we generate that kind of love and acceptance universally.

It is possible.

And that's why founded the Love Matters collaboration and dedicated my life to love prevailing as the preeminent way of being on the planet.

And that's what my life.

Life is about a hundred percent.

I find that if we allow people to be their most authentic selves, our.

World would be healed and right.

Harmonious with that.

Consistent with that is I find that when people are free, they love.

But free, free from fear, free from resentment, free from judgment, free from limiting beliefs.

When people are free, they naturally love.

So it's become normal to judge each other.

It's become normal to resent each other.

But normal and natural are two different things.

Say more about that.

So when things become normal, we get used to certain things, but that doesn't mean they're natural for us.

Yeah, we, I, I call that conditioning.

Right?

Yeah.

Very good, very good.

But when we're free, I find we naturally love.

I just want to be the.

So it's never to have people become more loving.

That's never the job.

No, it's to free people from the things they got trapped in, the judgments they got trapped in of themselves or others, the resentments they got trapped in, the beliefs they got trapped in.

When you get people free, they just naturally love.

That's what happens.

So that's, that's what I find is.

Is important for us is to trust that everybody, when they're free, they love and that.

And so the job is not to try to convince them to love.

It's to get them free.

So it sounds like you've had a lot of influences in your life as you've moved on this journey?

What were some of your influences or mentors along the way and how did they help unlock this model of love for you?

Personally, I see a couple major influences.

One was, believe it or not, a French teacher who I did one of those in college, junior years abroad.

I studied my junior year in France.

I had a teacher that went with us.

His name was Bill and he was the most.

A lot.

He wasn't gay.

He was the most alive person I'd seen.

He was so self expressed.

He just.

And he loved French and he loved teaching and he loved everything about.

And he just was always just alive and.

And you know, sharing it with everybody, like, come on, you know, and that really impacted me.

I had never seen somebody that much playing the game of life that fully before.

So that was one right there.

Then again, Warner Earhart, who created the s training and leader the program called the Landmark Forum.

Warner Earhart has been called the genius of the century.

His teachings are so utterly to the point of what it takes to be human that who we're being as human beings and being able to transform that.

So not at all just a philosophical conversation, although there is philosophy to it, but a conversation that really leaves you living life as your true self.

So Warner Earhart was a critical piece.

But then if I could say one more thing with all that transformational opening I had in studying with warnerheart, then I met a guru.

Her name is Jagged Guru Saima.

S a I new word M a a Saima.

And Saima touched my heart.

She.

So I had the, I had the in.

I had the, the opening in my thinking.

But Saima came and touched my heart, opened my heart to fully loving.

So when you took the transformational teachings and then brought this spiritual awakening to it, then I have been unabashed in my loving ever since.

I would say it's brave to love.

Oh, it takes courage.

It takes real courage to love.

It does.

Part of the courage it takes is because sometimes, you know, especially as a gay man, it took courage.

Love, because a. I was told that my love was inappropriate.

And me, I was told as a gay man, I was told that my love was too feminine.

So it all was something to be criticized, actually, which was.

Right.

Right.

Yeah.

You know, you know, a surprising thing.

But even still today, you know, it's being voted on, you know, whether.

Whether gay love is acceptable or not.

Is it being voted on?

Really?

We're voting on love.

Really?

What it's like I did a TikTok My wife and I do tiktoks sometimes.

And my wife came out in 1982.

She's been out a gazillion years.

And we did a video of us and it was us on the couch, our two dogs in between us.

And I titled it the horrors of gay Marriage.

What.

What are we like?

And as somebody who.

And you, you understand this as well as somebody who's been married to, to the conditioned right person and now married to the person that's the best person for you and who you are as a human being.

My marriage to my wife is so much more of a marriage as a, as a partnership, as having love and desire for that person than my marriage to my ex husband ever was.

You know, it just wasn't that way.

And there's a plethora of reasons why it wasn't that way.

And like, to me, I know both sides.

So I can tell you that my marriage with my wife is a much more real marriage, a partnership than my wife, my relationship with my ex husband ever was.

And he's.

And by the way, my ex husband's a very nice man.

He's a great dad to his kids.

But it's just that we did not.

What is it like the like use a religious word, like almost like cleaving or this bonding that we have with each other that I just didn't have with my ex.

So like I know both sides and this is actually more of a marriage than that ever was in the sense of a partnership and lovers and all those things like that.

Yeah.

And we could easily argue it's not only good for you and your wife, it's good for the world.

That that is good for the world.

That.

That correct.

And also too, I mean, it's good for the world because people that are unhappy and, and in love with their spouses are going to be happier citizens, you know.

So let's talk about your book, Raise, you know, happier kids.

Yeah.

Right.

So without a doubt.

So I would love to talk a little bit about your book.

Oh, me too.

That's great.

What does your love does matter truly mean?

And why is it the title of your book?

Well, again, if I go back to when I was real young to four years old.

So this is.

I turned 74 this week, so 70 years ago.

Okay.

Birthday.

Thank you.

One of my first memories is being taken to church.

And I was raised in a very faithful family.

Actually.

We participated in a religion called Evangelical United Brethren.

So it was a Protestant faithful upbringing.

And at 4 years old, I was taken to the most beautiful evening ceremony.

It was a candlelight service in our church.

It was a little church in a little town, but the whole sanctuary night was lit with candles.

And you'll get a kick out of this.

You ever drive down the highway and see paintings on velvet backgrounds?

Like usually it's a beanie of Elvis Presley or a tiger or something.

This whole service was an artist painting a picture of Jesus on a velvet canvas, right?

So Sad.

This was 50s, this was 50s, this is back in the 50s.

And.

But in my little four year old eyes, it was the most beautiful thing I ever saw in my whole life.

But here's what happens.

I was sitting there watching and I was just moved by Jesus's love for the children.

And I think it was my first experience of my own soul because I remember thinking to myself, I love that much, I love the world that much.

I love people that much.

And then, and it was a, it was a profound awakening to my own soul that night, right?

But then, you know, things happened.

And a couple years later, my dad, I still don't know why, I turned violent and got brutally violent with my mom and our family.

And so my beautiful, faithful family turned into a violent family.

And then, you know, we moved away, my nuclear family moved away from our bigger family.

And it seemed not to matter anymore, that the family didn't matter anymore.

And then as I already said, as I came out and started dealing with being gay, I got told my love was illegitimate, right?

And so I got really disappointed, like in life, like, wait, I thought love mattered and it didn't.

So it's then taking that, saying that, no, wait, it does matter.

And I am now a hundred percent resolved.

Love is the thing that matters.

And if people want, and this is not just a nice, you know, oh, let's create a loving world in that nice.

No, if you want to be effective with people, you gotta love.

You cannot be affected.

I don't care if you want to be a corporate leader, a social leader, a political leader.

I don't care if you want to lead people, they got to listen to you.

I don't care how brilliant you are.

If people don't listen, you're not the leader.

And people don't listen to people who don't love them.

They just don't.

So I got to push back on that one.

The man who is currently serving as president.

Explain that one.

Okay, well, there are people who think, who relate to it like he loves them and they are for him.

And it's just been enough people that God was able to get him elected.

But if you watch what he can't get done, it's what he can't get done with the people that have the opposite experience.

Not only he doesn't love me, he scorns me.

He's not effective with those people.

Now, you can resort to domination, you can resort to force.

You can.

But ultimately it won't be effective.

And I don't care.

Amber, if it's.

If we're talking about, like, dealing with our teenage children or if it's dealing with our colleagues at work or dealing with our neighbors, I am firmly committed.

Now, that doesn't.

You know, I watched.

You know, if I look back at Gandhi and Dr. King, they were known for loving, but I even held it most time, like, yeah, but their diplomacy was so brilliant.

Their strategy was so brilliant.

I'm.

I'm not of that view anymore.

I'm of the view their love is what did it, period.

So how are you defining love?

Love is a way of being.

So you could.

And I'm very, very.

I want.

I think this is important for people to understand.

Most people relate to love as something they have.

Like they have loving emotions or loving thoughts or loving sensations, or people relate to love is something to do, like, you know, I give you a Valentine's card, or I give you flowers, or I kiss you.

So those are two domains of life.

What we have and what we do.

But, Anne Marie, there's a third domain of life that people don't deal with much is who we be as human beings so that we're always being some way.

Like, I could be generous, or I could be stingy.

I could be tender.

I could be cold.

I could be kind.

I could be cruel.

Loving is a way of being.

Now, two things about that that are important.

One is if you really examine life, the only thing that gives us the quality of our life is not what we have.

You and I could have a million dollars and be miserable.

It's not what we do.

You and I could be skiing in the Swiss Alps and be miserable.

It's who we be.

If you examine life carefully, if you love who you're being, you love your life.

And if you don't love who you're being, you don't love your life.

Split second by split second.

When you get love as a way of being, you have your hands around that which gives you the quality of your life.

But here's the other thing that's really important.

You and I don't have control over what we have.

We could Have a car, one minute, it's gone, the next, we could have an arm one minute, it's gone, the next, you and I don't have control over what we do.

If we step off a roof, we fall down.

We could show up at the airport on time, get to the gate on time, and our flight's canceled.

The thing that we have total control over 100% is who we be.

So then we find out that the one thing that gives us our happiness is the one thing we have total control over is who we be.

So being loving.

And when you get love as a way of being, then you, you develop your muscle to be loving anytime, anywhere, under any circumstance.

And that's what I them am calling, you know, expanding your love footprint.

Having a love footprint in the planet, just as we have a carbon footprint.

I'd like us to consider we have a love footprint.

And every time we leave an interaction, Whether it's for 60 seconds, we talk to a clerk in a store or we worked with a colleague for 10 years, every time we leave, we leave behind.

Do we leave behind resentment, opinion, judgment, indifference, or do we leave love behind?

And it's possible to leave love behind.

And so when you get love as a way of being, it's something we have access to, generating.

Well, I've always said that Jesus, when asked what was the greatest commandment of the Bible, he said to love God, love your neighbor, and love yourself.

And my argument has always been the hardest thing to do is love yourself.

Being love would mean that we would have to accept all parts of ourselves, including the parts that are, you know, the ones we don't like so much.

You know, that is, I feel like if we can become, if we can love ourselves and then generate that love out to others.

That I think is what God was talking about.

It really, it wasn't.

Wasn't the conditional love your neighbor like we see right now.

Love your neighbor as long as it doesn't interfere with my taxes.

You know, stuff like that.

What we're seeing right now.

No, that, that you're talking about grace.

Grace is giving love that does not have to be deserved and is never taken away.

Yes.

You literally bestow grace on others.

Said it a little simpler.

You just wish others well, period.

That's bestowing grace in them.

But this thing about self love, can we talk about that for a minute?

You know, I'm going to say the same thing.

If we don't love ourselves, it doesn't work to try to love ourselves more.

What works is to find out hey, what got in my way of loving myself?

Oh, it's some opinion I got about myself, some judgment I got about myself.

So the job is to be able to free ourselves from those judgments and opinions, and then we naturally love ourselves.

Now for that.

This is a bigger conversation.

What's needed on the planet is a whole new.

Is a release from the paradigm.

The old paradigm of good, bad, right and wrong.

People have forgotten that that's all made up.

Yes, it is.

Yeah.

There's no such thing as good or bad music.

People think there's good and bad music.

No, there's not.

There's music we call good and there's music we call bad, but that's us making it up.

Are you saying we have to be free from duality then?

I.

Not quite.

We.

Yes, I would say that.

Okay.

I would say that, but because that's all made up, too.

Okay.

How did duality get made up?

Things get separated by naming.

So Anne Marie, David, were separate.

Correct.

The floor of the wall.

Oh, separate.

United States, Canada, one piece of dirt.

One piece of dirt.

United States, Canada.

How did the United States of Canada get separated?

Oh, they called that piece of dirt.

That part of the dirt.

United States, that part of the dirt.

Canada are two different things now.

Monday, Tuesday, one block at time.

How did it get separated?

We called some of the time Monday, some of the time Tuesday.

Just naming things has them become separate?

So duality is a function of things having been named and therefore separated.

And we forget as human beings, it's all made up.

It's not the truth.

It's a reality that we inherited, a reality that got made up in conversation and is not the truth.

And when people can discover that they.

Get free, tune in next week for part two of AnneMarie's conversation with David Cunningham on the power of love as a tool for transformation.

You've been listening to Coming out and LGBTQIA stories with Annmarie Zanzel.

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