The Instructor Podcast with Terry Cook talking.

With leaders, innovators, experts and game changers.

About what drives them.

So welcome to the Instructor Podcast Green Room Edition.

This is the show that regularly takes lunch break and even sometimes has a sandwich.

So thank you, Kemi Badenok.

As always, I am your splendid host, Terry Cook.

I'm delighted to be here, but you'll be delighted.

It's not just me because I am joined by three of the wisest people in the entire driving instructor world.

First up, I'm joined by the founder of Bright Coaching and the current Chair of the ADI NJC, the Scottish Han Solo, Mr.

Stuart Lockery.

How are we doing, Stuart?

I'm good, Tony, how are you?

Happy Christmas.

Thank you.

Thank you for joining us today and I hope you had a wonderful Christmas, despite how you may sound.

Yeah, I'll do my best to get through this.

I'll do my best.

Yes, well, I will pile extra pressure on you accordingly.

We're also joined today by the head of training at the ADNJC, the host of the 10 Minute Takeaway YouTube show and the Tom to My Terry, Mr.

Tom Stenson.

How we doing, Tom?

I'm very good, thank you, Terry, how are you?

All the better.

Seeing your smiley face, obviously.

And how was your Christmas?

It was a double thumbs up for me.

Double thumbs up.

There's a joke that I'm not going to do and it wouldn't be the Green Room if I wasn't joined by the founder of Theory Test, explained the co founder of the ditc.

The best there was, the best there is and the best there ever will be.

Chris Benstead.

How are we doing, Chris?

No, I'm good, thank you.

I've had a lovely Christmas and I'm very pleased to be here with you guys.

Bonus points for you, Chris, if you can tell us which WWF wrestler that nickname was from that I just gave you.

No?

Okay.

Right.

First one I put in the comments generally does get a proper prize for that, by the way.

But yes, today we are reviewing the 20 or the year if you like, of 2024 within our industry and some personal stuff as well.

And I am also going to be asking five of the best questions that ever created.

So there is no pressure and we're going to start off with this one.

In fact, just before we do start off, I'm going to give everyone a very quick chance for a very quick plug before we start.

So Stuart, do you want to just tell everyone where they can find you?

Oh, hello.

I'm in Scotland.

I run Bright Coaching.

You can find me@brightcoaching.net or I guess you can find me at the Avingc now.

Yeah, either of those places are fine, depending on what you're looking for.

Oh, thank you.

I'll just go to Scotland or just go to Scotland.

Yeah, just steal things.

Tom, where can people find you?

They can find me at the Airdinjc as well or@audit trainer.com and Chris, where.

Can people find you?

You can find me@theditc.co.uk or theory test explained, depending on what services you require.

Okay, so we're going to start off with question one, oddly, of five of the greatest questions ever created.

We're going to start with you, Chris, for this one.

So I would like you to share one or some of your fails from 2024.

It's going to be a long list.

No, I, I don't think there's been a huge individual fail.

I think I, my failure was in picking up a momentum and it was one of those kind of failure by success things where I got.

Everything else got in the way.

So I'm looking forward to a new year of actually achieving the things that I've been working on that I promised would be done by the end of this year and they're not even slightly there.

But yes, that is, that's my main thing is that lots of, you know, lots of foundations have been set but none of them have actually got anything built on them yet.

You did have, and I'm sure you may mention this later, but you did have a positive disruption to the year that may have hampered your progress slightly in some ways.

I'm sure I wasn't going to mention my new daughter on a failure.

You know, there was clearly a failure that was involved.

But no, she, no, she's not coming under failure.

She's.

No, I don't mean she was a failure.

I mean that where, that, that, that.

What's the word?

The rolling of enthusiasm, if you like.

There's a bit of disruption there when you have a massive change to family circumstance.

So I think you've done really well.

Oh, thank you.

I'll take that.

Because, you know, she thinks I've done incredibly well.

She's.

Yeah, excellent.

So I, I'm glad those things done well.

But yes, woman, you can mention that properly in the, the winds of the year.

Tom, what about your failures from this year?

Because thinking back to last year, you didn't have many.

Has there been many this year?

Yes, lots.

The, the.

I think what I'm trying to do this year is look more positive on those fails.

The two that stand out to me.

One was a trainee who was unsuccessful twice at part two, who then decided to go elsewhere for training, which kind of made me think a lot about myself, which is the positive I'm taking.

And the second kind of fail was somebody who came to me for training after failing three standards checks and two part threes.

Unfortunately only gave me a few months to try and work any magic and I feel like I could have done better now that I reflect on it, but this person is going back round and is working hard to try and correct some of those unsuccessful attempts, which is good.

I like that because it's something we've spoke about quite a bit this year actually is failing.

I know you've spoke about it on one of the premium shots it did as well.

And I do think it's important because I do think that pretty much every failure brings about a positive, don't it, at the end of it?

The failure aspect is never nice.

We don't like it at the time.

But I think when you've got over that failure, we can always take something from it.

Except when your parachute doesn't open.

As long as it's not my parachute.

I mean, look, if you survive, you can learn from it.

You'll learn to do your parachute properly next time.

But, you know, experiential learning, I think that's called.

Yeah.

And the other parachuters that we're going to go afterwards will know.

Maybe I'll check my parachute again before I jump.

So it might not be your success, but your death from the parachute jump could result in a positive for someone else demonstration.

Yep, yep.

You just said we survived, now we've died.

I mean, it's been a long week.

All right, Stuart, what are some of your.

Oh, God.

This whole podcast so far could go on this list.

What are some of your fails from.

From this year?

I'm going to try not to take that personally as your other guests.

So, yeah, I kind of this and I was kind of like, yeah, I've had quite a good year.

I've not had any fails.

But then obviously I lied to myself all the time.

I can relate to Chris's kind of stuff about think this is what you're talking about, having just so many things going on and I don't mind that.

Usually it keeps me pretty busy.

But actually one of the fails has been if we're allowed to talk about money.

I've not made as much money as I wanted to this year, guys.

I'M sorry if that was crude or anything, but I think our jobs, my job in particular is different from driving instructors that are out teaching 20, 30 hours a week.

But every driving instructor knows that if they don't make enough money in a month, then there's something not right.

Something needs to be kind of addressed somewhere.

And across a couple of businesses, we just didn't make as much money as we should have done.

There are reasons for that.

Bright coaching took a lot of time out of what I was doing with the driving school, but so that's kind of the main one getting into next year that I need to address, get back to doing instructor training and kind of balance the books a little bit.

Couple of fitness goals that I didn't achieve.

Probably my biggest fail, though, is that I've not been able to reduce my time on Facebook as much as I wanted to.

That's been a really big thing for me this year because it just sucks the energy out of me.

Andrew Love used to talk about energy vampires, and Facebook remains an energy vampire.

Listening to Tom's fails about not being able to get somebody through the part three.

Somebody had a real go at me on one of the Scottish Facebook groups a couple of weeks ago.

I just sat.

I literally was awake all night thinking about it and how to respond to it.

I took it really personally until realizing that I just don't give a shit.

You know, it's fine.

Just need to get on with it, and I'm doing my job and I'm happy with how I do my job.

Okay.

I'll keep getting better at it.

I just need to get off Facebook.

That's the problem.

I initially wanted to ask you about the financial side, but I'm more interested in the Facebook side because I think that's something that a lot of us can relate to.

But I am curious.

So a genuine question.

Is it Facebook or is it phone?

Sorry, is it Facebook or phone?

Yeah, because for me, I went down that rabbit hole of thinking that I was struggling a lot with Facebook, and then I realized it's not just Facebook, it's my phone.

You know, if there's nothing interesting on Facebook, I'll find something else on the phone.

So it's gonna be that dopamine hit.

So I think it's both, but I think it's.

I think it's more specifically Facebook, because, you know, Facebook is a necessary evil for people like all of us here in terms of the way we market our businesses.

It's where loads and loads of driving instructors are and when we put a post out about a training course that's coming up or a service that we're plugging, we need to see how that performs.

It's a little bit more than dopamine.

We want the likes.

Yes.

But it's a little bit more than that.

It's a little bit.

Am I getting a return on investment here?

Am I getting eyeballs on what I'm doing?

And I would love to be that kind of guy who can just log on on a Monday and schedule all my posts for the week or the fortnight and then log off and have a look at it again.

But I don't have that kind of discipline at the moment.

Yeah.

So I think it's, it's how I'm navigating the necessary marketing evil of Facebook.

More than anything interesting because I know that's been one of mine this year, so I'll share my feels as well.

So it's been a, an interesting year for me this year in terms of stuff going wrong because I think it's been a bit of a mix what everyone has said actually in that I don't think anything, one thing has gone disastrous.

I think there's been lots of continual things.

So my health, for example, mental and physical has just taken a kick in this year particular last six months or so.

I had my first panic attack this year since like the start of 2022.

But you know, like Tom was saying about the positive come from.

I had that panic attack an hour before I recorded a Green room episode and when I listened back to the green room episode you couldn't tell.

It was like, oh, I did a good job there despite, you know, this happening.

And so that was quite cool.

The finances have been interesting for me as well.

I've just seen that word wisely interesting in.

There's been some really good wins financially for me this year and there's been some disaster.

I've made some really, excuse my language, shit choices this year.

I've started some projects that died on their ass, you know, that didn't go well.

And I just think it's been a year where everything that's gone wrong, I've been able to, even the health stuff, a lot of that has come about from the way I treat my body.

You know, it's not all of it has come about from.

I've got this thing, it's come about from the way I treat my body.

So yeah, it's been an interesting year for me.

Fail wise.

There's been lots of them but nothing that's maybe stood out above the rest.

Maybe the health one.

Actually I don't know.

But yes.

So there's some of my fails and I'm going to read this comment that's come up from from Gary says I'm to blame.

I think this is regarding the Facebook thing.

Your whole season has been around embracing tech.

Your next season should be around rejecting tech.

The next season is actually going to be around health.

So you know, maybe we'll, we'll get on there and one of the episodes this season was about how to use tech for self care.

So go and listen to that one again.

Right, so let's have a look at some of the news because in quarter one some things happened in quarter one of this year and those things were part two and three tests.

Waiting times continued to get worse.

The AGI walk back kicked off.

The 10 minute takeaway started on YouTube.

Right.

Coaching's PDA level seven kicked off.

The Driving Instructor Tips podcast started.

And on March 16th the third annual driving instructor Day took place, which was celebrated not only in the uk, but also in Australia, Americas and Switzerland by the likes of Stefan plus plus it was shared by organizations such as roadpeace and we buy anycar.com so driving instructors say big success this year, but it struck me looking back, there wasn't an awful lot of news, like dramatic news from that first quarter, but lots of things starting, oddly enough, for the first quarter of a year.

So.

So Stuart, I'm going to come to you with a question on this.

So a little bit about bread coaching.

You know how that's gone this year because I think that's been one of the biggest wins for our industry this year.

But kind of just the news overall, everything stands out for you.

Anything I've missed?

Yeah.

So I can talk about bike coaching and maybe a little bit later, I have some, I have some feels about that probably worth sharing with some of the people who are here.

I think it's quite interesting that all the news that happened in 2024 seemed to involve one of the four of us.

So literally everything that happened at the start of the year was because of us and nobody else did anything.

Is that what you're saying?

There's a slight bias to my reporting.

A slight bias to my reporting, but you know, whatever.

Yeah, I mean, I guess picking up on part two, part three tests, I can maybe turn that into a positive because we've noticed in kind of Scotland, Glasgow, Edinburgh in particular, that that seems to be turning a corner now.

So maybe that that's That's a positive thing.

I don't know, I don't know why, but we're getting lots of cancellations coming up, you know, short notice test availability for part two and part three tests.

I don't know if that's been mirrored up and down the rest of the country.

Again, I don't, I don't know enough about the, the, the intricacies of how they allocate the examiners and all that kind of stuff.

I probably do need to learn a little bit more about that, given recent circumstances, but it seems very positive.

The PDIs who we've been speaking to have come into it with almost a bit worried by what they've been hearing on social media and they're almost kind of pleasantly surprised by it.

So, yeah, I think that's a good thing.

I like the, I like the Driving Instructor Day thing that you guys have started up.

I think that's awesome.

I think we should continue doing that.

What were the other things that happened?

It was all of our stuff that we'd done in that case.

Yeah, I think it was all amazing.

Yeah, yeah, I think we all did brilliantly.

Yeah, there was other stuff that's gone on, but obviously I'm going to be biased towards the people on here, so.

Tom, Chris, do you have any thoughts on quarter one that you want to share?

I think, you know, now the changes that Stuart was referring to are because there are actually ADI examiners coming in.

We suddenly, we were sat down having a Christmas breakfast with all of our driving school guys and the PDI's that were around the table, their phone started pinging with emails saying, here's some dates.

So, yeah, I think there's, there's been a bit of an improvement on that side of things.

But, yeah, no, I think, you know, for me, Walk Back was started with absolutely no expectations.

It was, it was just myself and a colleague sat down and he wanted to take the dog for a walk to talk to me instead of sit around the table because that's where he feels happiest.

I clearly feel happier sitting around a breakfast table and eating food.

But, you know, I, I, I aim to try and accommodate everybody.

So we were going to do it just locally and went, sod it, let's do it nationally.

And we've got a, there's a good few fewer out there that are doing it on a monthly basis and just forgetting everybody else in the country for a second.

What I love is that I have a new friend who comes along to every single Walk Back with me is an absolute wingman.

So thank you, Adam.

You.

You are an absolute trooper.

And he's shown me how important it is that, you know, he's really kind of.

It's hit the spot with him and he really appreciates it.

So hopefully that's happening in other places as well.

And, you know, other people are finding the same thing and people have got in touch.

I said, well, it's just me.

That's brilliant, because then when someone else needs it, you will be there.

So, you know, for me, probably biggest success of the year is that at least one person has been helped, which is that, you know, that I'm not going to ask for any more than that.

You know, if.

If there are more, and I know there are, then, you know, each one multiplies that over and over again.

So.

So that, that was, you know, worth chucking a random idea out there.

And I just want to point out that it doesn't fit a smart goal in any way, shape or form because it's not really measurable and it wasn't realistic at all.

And I love that.

So screw you, smart goals.

I hate smart goals.

But I will just say that I think the walk back is possibly, if not the only one of the very few things I've seen introduced into our industry that no one's bitched about.

I find, you know, there's always stuff that people, even driving through the day, you know, there's people at the moment, what's this pointless nonsense sort of thing.

But like, ADI Waterback.

No one said that.

So I think that's probably the biggest compliment anyone could pay it.

But, Tom, have you got anything to add or anything you want to mention regarding quarter one?

I would like to mention Driving Instructor Day, because both myself and Penny share birthdays on the 16th of March as well, so hooray for us.

Yeah, I mean, the part two, part three thing does seem to be changing a little bit in our area.

Like Stuart said, there's more cancellations coming up.

Although, looking at the positives, I have kind of liked not being able to get part twos and threes so soon because I've kind of used that as a benefit for trainees to go look at all the time.

You've got to actually learn and put into practice some of this, you know, you haven't got to rush through it now.

And although I try and live in an ideal world, not everybody sees it like that, but, you know, look for the positives.

Yeah, can I just.

Can I.

Can I just back that up?

Just to add on to that something that we started doing as a result of the lack of tests was just really being on top of every single PDI as soon as they passed the part one.

Right, let's go bang.

Overlapping part one and part two.

Overlapping part two and part three, and let's get on to part three as soon as possible.

You know, circumstances allowing.

And then that's something we're just going to keep doing because of that reason that you've mentioned, Tom, just more time with them so that they're not starting part three with like eight months left of the whole process, which is a situation we probably used to find ourselves in more than we should.

So, yeah, definitely some good things to come out of that.

So, yeah, that.

That failure of part two and part three has led to some positives.

So I like that.

So, staying with you, Tom, do you want to share one or some of your wins from 2024?

What's gone well for you this year?

What's gone well?

You're less enthusiastic about this one than my pain.

No, no, Because I'm trying to pick something that really kind of stands out.

But I do feel like I've had lots of good wins this year.

I suppose one that is nothing to do with driving instruction or our industry at all is I.

I purchased my first electric mountain bike and I just.

I'm really annoyed that I didn't do it about 10 years ago.

I don't know how to respond to that.

Sounds about walk to me.

Yeah, I was thinking walk.

Yeah, definitely.

It sounds really good.

Oh, very good.

You fit in well on the green room with these kind of walk winds, Tom.

It's all good.

All right, Stuart, can you beat an electric mountain bike for your wins this year?

Listen, it's just going to be bright coaching, guys.

I'm really sorry it's the obvious thing, but bike coaching has been amazing for us just to have spent so much time on it and to see it work and to come through and get so much support for it and the industry is obviously really embarrassing in many, many ways, but it has to be the win.

Met so many amazing people who I would never have met otherwise.

But the biggest thing is just seeing the work being done that the driving instructors have taken away and doing in car and then coming back and telling us all about it, it's been just.

It's been validating and just seeing the whole thing come to life.

It's not came to life in the way that I thought it would come to life, but it came to life in a slightly different way.

But that's okay because I can't control everything.

But, yeah, it's been amazing.

It's been awesome.

I'm really pleased with it.

Humble brag.

That's me done, I think.

I mean, I've met fully aware my.

My thoughts on Bryce coaching and, and how impressed I'm with Amber.

I think the thing that I almost like the most is how I don't know what the right word is.

I want to say implicit you are with things.

Rather than coming out and saying, you need to do this, this, and this and rah, rah, rah.

You're just giving it as an option and saying, this is what I believe we should be doing, and you back it up.

You know, I'm not saying you just chuck it out there, run away, but it never feels like it's shoved down anyone's throat and like someone is wrong for not following the things that you're putting out there.

Yeah, yeah.

And sure.

I mean, that, that, that, that.

That's always been a name.

Can you have that as a name?

Not to be kind of out there all the time and just forcing it down people's thoughts?

I don't know.

But the, the qualification, when I said earlier on that it's not.

It's came to life in a way that I didn't quite envisage.

It's been slightly different.

I think that's possibly linked to what you're referring to and that it's not for everyone.

This content is not for everyone.

Not every driver instructor at this moment in time feels the calling to become a qualified coach.

Not every driver instructor believes that coaching is the way forward to become better driver trainers.

And that's absolutely fine because those driving instructors are not the market for brake coaching.

Not to mention the fact that the vast majority of driving instructors probably don't want a professional qualification after they've passed part three.

That's never been the point of it.

The point was to create something for the people who do want that kind of stuff.

So, yeah, I get a bit embarrassed talking about it on the green room when you give me so much airtime on the instructor podcast.

So, yeah, I'm not very comfortable talking about it.

Well, speaking of things not comfortable, I was about to say, I like that, and then I remembered that you pointed out that I say that quite a lot.

And now I'm really paranoid.

Paranoid about seeing.

Oh, I thought so.

So sorry.

I'm so sorry.

Thanks for that.

All right, Chris, what.

What are your wins from this year?

I'm going to start with having had a baby.

Not personally.

You know, I was involved in the process and, and that she's awesome and everything else, because otherwise I might forget and then I'll be in trouble.

But, yeah, she is like, it's scarily perfect and sleeping and smiling and that's all she does.

And, yeah, that's all good.

So, yeah, so that's awesome.

Well done, Lottie.

You're doing well.

I.

On the more important stuff, me, the, the, the fact that I'm engaging with the DVSA as a theory stakeholder, which I didn't know is a thing really, and the, the changes that are happening with the theory test, although they're not happening where we need them to yet, but the, the awareness of theory is, Is up there.

That's been awesome this, this year.

And I know, really thank everybody for their, their, their faith in me on that because people will tag me in pretty much anything on Facebook that says theory, and I love that.

Thank you.

Because they didn't have to.

So.

So that I really appreciate and I feel that's a win.

And then with my grade, Grade A course, the, the part three focus, I've had a record number of people who have failed multiple times who've come along and then knocked it out the park.

So, you know, after two hours on Zoom, they've gone and had a better understanding of it and I've now got a better understanding of the problem.

So, you know, that that's also a win, I think.

Yeah, I, I've been.

It's been a really positive year.

It's just been positive in little bits and, you know, it's.

Yeah, I think sometimes that's nice.

Sometimes it's nice not to have a one big thing that all the focus was on because it doesn't matter if one little thing goes wrong.

Well, a couple of things I want to touch back on there.

I'm going to start off with, with you having a shroud because it amuses me that I brought it up during the fail section and you told me off, but then you bring it up by saying, I better mention this or I'll get told if I don't.

So I think I feel slightly better about that.

But I don't know, I just think that that that grade A course.

I don't.

This, this almost amuses me slightly that you barely promote that is a standards check course.

Isn't a standards check course, but it helps you become a grade A and you barely promote that.

I've heard this phrase used about me before.

Actually, and I don't think it applies.

I think that Grade A course is the best kept secret in the industry and I think that I, one of my goals for 2025 is to plug your Grade A cost.

Even if you decide not to.

I'm going to promote that on your behalf and make people come to you.

It's because I don't want to be a trainer.

I've, I've always said helping me plug.

It, that's not helping me.

It's, it's.

No, it's like the secret menu, isn't it?

It's, it's that thing.

It is.

I, I love it when, when, when it's the right answer to a question, I will provide it and I always get people getting in touch and, you know, having a look at it and some decide to do it, some don't.

And I think it's probably the best thing that I've put together, excluding the kids.

So, yeah, I think it's awesome and I think it works really well.

And I've said, I've seen, seen it, you know, when people have done it and it just helps everything make sense and removes all of the BS from the, the process because they've been given all this information and got drowned with it and sometimes they need a bit of a life, life raft and just things need simplifying because when you're sat, even on a lesson, not just on a test, you know, the focus is that every lesson should match the test or should be test appropriate.

But it's so easy to be spinning so many plates and it's, it's nice to not have to.

So yes, it's on my secret menu.

If anyone wants to get in touch about it, they're welcome to, but I'm not going to shout about it at all.

You can.

Well, a slight divergence of topic here.

There's a reason why I record these lives and I encourage people to come along live.

And part of it is because of the chat and I'm not going to repeat this because I want to adjust this, but Tom Thompson has put on the best comments I've ever seen.

So well done for that.

But I will just say that I know these three guys personally have achieved so much more than what they've said there.

They probably don't want to talk about it, whatever.

But the thing I will say is I've seen firsthand the impact that these three chaps have had on individuals in the industry.

The difference they've made with people within the industry, not just through the trading but through content if you like to put out and through the way they are.

See what Stuart and Tom have done at the ADI NJC for example and and Chris obviously with the idea what back and I mentioned earlier but I know the impact that's had.

So yeah, I wanted to take a moment just to give you guys a bit more of a big up because I don't think you did it enough there because I'm about to pick me up quite a lot here.

So I didn't want to feel left out because I as much as this year has been really poor in a lot worse for me, I kind of give a big list before there has been a lot of little wins.

So for me the podcast and the premium has continued to grow.

And by that I don't necessarily mean numbers, I mean grow in other ways.

I think that the content I've created this year has been the best content, the best quality, the best spot out content I've created over the years I've been doing this.

The I've continued to innovate within that scope with different the road safety stuff, the one minute instructor tips, the the, the the season I did what they call in conversation with Willora Morris, that one off stuff.

I was invited to join the NGSE committee.

I was invited to become a member of the IMTD and it's one I'm no longer very very recently I'm no longer on the prowl.

But I think my biggest win for this year is and I contradict myself because I've done it several times on this episode I have reduced my urms.

I made a conscious effort at the start of this year to reduce my urms on the podcast and they have gone down significantly.

There's even been a couple of hour long episodes this year I've done when there hasn't been a single urm.

And I don't think there's a better achievement than that.

Well done mate.

Well done mate.

That's a good one.

That's a good one.

I struggle with arms all the time presenting.

Yes, it's tough.

It's when you're thinking about somewhere and you feel uncomfortable thinking about it.

So you feel the silence.

You've got to embrace the silence.

And it's what I did just then and it's something it's really, really difficult to get over.

But you've got to accept that that silence is going to be there.

But anyway, that's a tip to nearly did it then.

That's a tip to improve to to minimize your Embrace of silence.

So let's move on quarter two, bit more kind of specific news.

So examiners returned to the office.

They'd been out delivering driving tests and they're now back to the office.

And there was also the road piece challenge which was honoring the 1,766 people that died on UK roads.

Les Hopkinson, who was along this night, he was raising money for that back in May.

And I joined Les heading down somewhere.

I always forget where to do the final mile with lots of amazing people from.

From roadpeace, which was.

I always struggle to find the words for that.

Inspiring and emotional and all that kind of stuff.

Also the road safety season of the other podcast, which when I spoke before about the content I was creating, that's the single best thing I've ever done.

And possibly most important, we also had the Intelligent instructor and NJC convention that was in quarter two.

We had the MSA conference which took a slightly different road.

And I like this, we spoke about it at the time, Chris.

They had G Sabini Robertson talking about diversity, which if anyone wants to hear more from G, you can go back to season one of the podcast.

But I love that they went down that road.

And also it was the point where DVSA limited the number of times ADIs can swap tests online.

So there we go.

So I'll come to you first, Chris, on that one.

Anything you want to comment on or anything I potentially missed on Core 2?

No, I'm still processing it.

So, yeah, I.

The only thing that stood out for me was when all of the DVSA staff moved away from the front line again.

Retreated, I think it's officially termed as when they do that.

And I then got drowned by people dealing with letters about DVSA complaints because they hadn't been addressed for ages.

So I had loads of people phoning up with mass panic because they got these very stern sounding letters from the, from the dvsa, I believe.

All of which were then dismissed, you know, on the next letter.

It wasn't.

None of them were major issues and it's totally right, the DBSA addressing them, but there was just a, you know, they'd obviously gone through the inbox when they got back to the office and there was suddenly a, a tsunami of emails and letters coming out from the dbsa.

I.

Yeah, I think, you know, that that was the, the big thing of at that moment in time.

The other one is, is the fact that you can't move tests as much online, but you can if you phone up.

So it doesn't matter anyway.

But I think that then probably did what it needed to of putting some kind of restrictions in place about, you know, what's going on with tests being sold and everything else, although it's not illegal.

And I'm waiting to hear when there's actually some kind of measure against it.

So, you know, I, I, I sit on the fence on that one.

I don't think it's morally right, but that's different, you know, if people are willing to pay.

It's, it's interesting because one of the things I do in preparation for this ending episode is I go back and listen to every green room we've done.

And to hear us talk about this throughout the year has been fascinating because there's never been a big shift in opinion.

You can hear the opinion evolve slightly over time as we discuss it.

And I think I've changed to what you said there.

Now it's like it's not morally right.

It's not something I do in terms of selling tests and stuff.

But is it wrong?

I don't know what the answer to that is because legally they can do.

It's an interesting one, but I'm going to come to you next time because you have a driving school, so obviously your instructors will have to book tests.

When the examiners went back to work, went back to the office, did you notice all of a sudden that tests were harder to come by?

I think we've been quite lucky actually, in kind of our areas.

I wouldn't say that there's been a huge sort of change from when they retreated to when they've, they've come back again.

But again, I kind of convinced all my instructors of looking at the bright side of things again there just to plug.

Stuart thought I'd use the bright side to sort of say to pupils, well, okay, we've just got to change our business a little bit.

If we have to wait six months to get a test, that's fine.

We'd just make sure that people get lots of practice in, which is hopefully going to be more beneficial later on down the line and helps us pay our mortgages for another six months, you know.

But the good side, is there anything.

Else you want to touch on from quarter to anything else?

I'll start out for you.

Other than actually what I thought the convention that we had in May, I thought that was a real success.

And the sort of feedback that we got was how nice it was to have something a little bit smaller and a bit more personal for people, which again, I think is nicer for for our industry because it is a big thing and people often talk about how lonely it can be.

So I think being able to spend a day with the same amount of people was really nice.

So yeah, I see that as a positive as well for us.

I love that I've spoke about this on the show before, but that was my favorite CPD thing I've done in a long time.

It was just so enjoyable being able to liaise with the people in a different way.

When we go to the Expo in September, I get to meet you guys and I get to have chat with Chris face to face, which is rare and I get hugs off people.

But to actually, to be able to God, this is the wrong phrase.

Spend the evening with people and then do what we do the next day.

It's just, I don't know.

One of my favorite things definitely.

So I'm glad you've raised.

I really enjoyed that one but I'm going to move on to for your thoughts.

One thing I will say before I do kind of Tom touched on it there Always look on the bright side of life and bright ideas.

If you ever want to start a series on these rut the Podcast Premium.

There's two titles for you there that I'd be happy for you to use at any point.

Just just throwing out there, but I Is there anything that stands out from you?

For quarter two, I was going to go with the convention, I think for many, many reasons, but obviously we're involved in the organizing of these events as well and the running of them on the day.

And also we were fortunate enough, Tom and I, to to be presenting on the day and people think that we get asked to present because we're on the governing committee.

That's not the case.

There are a certain number of spots on the day and Richard and Lyn kind of decide to give everyone a really good variety of who they want to listen to.

But comparing the convention to the Expo as an organizer and all that kind of thing, it was just so much calmer I felt.

At the Expo you go into different seminar rooms and quite often the rooms are full and driving instructors get really annoyed because this is the person that they really wanted to see.

And we're having to close the doors because the seminar rooms are full and you just don't get any of that.

And it's a lot calmer for the people who are presenting as well because there's not people coming in and out 10 minutes after you've started and you're losing Your train of thought.

So it was just a.

It's a terrible word, but it was just nice, you know, it was just calm.

It was.

It felt very grown up and it felt like a.

It felt like a proper confidence should feel as opposed to the Expo, which is good from an energy, high energy kind of perspective.

Yeah, I think the convention was, was excellent.

I liked the fact that the academics were very well represented.

That's something that we try and do at the NGC Scotland Conference.

Slightly embarrassing.

I had to.

I was given like.

How long was it?

35, 35 minutes to talk about driver psychology and Liz Box got 15.

So Richard Stalls, if you're watching, you need to kind of sort that out and I'm happy to take 15 and just give Liz Box the headline spot, which is what we've done for the NGC Scotland Conference next year.

Liz Box is our headline speaker next year.

But yeah, good to see the academics talking about loads of different things on stage.

Ian Edwards was there as well.

Yeah, that was.

I think I'm with you, Terry.

That was my highlight of 2024 on the CPD front.

Liz Box, the second best person.

It's going to be the Scotland Conference next year, so.

Yeah, the second best, yeah, yeah, definitely.

But no, that was the thing for me there as well as the speakers, because normally when I go to those types of events, part of the reason I dislike them is because I'm forced to sit down and listen to all these people talk.

But there was some really good variety there.

You know, you mentioned all this Box.

We had Ian Edwards and Mirin around there and it was just.

I liked that, you know, even the DVC were there, which I didn't have a problem with, but because they were mixed in with these different things, it wasn't just sit down and listen to us talk to you about the standards check for a day.

It was all this different stuff.

And, and I love that.

And yeah, I hope that continues.

I hope that not just in the convention, but also the Scottish Convention, like you've said of other, you know, conferences are available.

So I hope that that continues.

I am going to mention one thing and I've only just thought of this, but I think it's worth seeing because I just mentioned her there.

Mary in Iran.

So for those that don't know, Mary in Iran is a massive road safety campaigner that's made some big differences and she started campaigning after she lost her son in a, in a, in a collision.

And I'm going to say this because she recently lost her other son as well, who sadly died.

And so, yeah, you know, if you want to take a moment, send your condolences to issues, you find your own LinkedIn.

And it was really heartbreaking to read that recently, actually, you know, looking at what, what's happened.

But, but yeah, absolutely.

Lovely person that's done a tremendous amount of good work.

And, and I just, I don't know if I was.

It was right to mention that there.

But yeah, so take a moment to, to think of other people sometimes and what other people are going through.

But let's, let's move on because I want to move on.

And we're going to continue with you through it because I'm going to ask you what has impressed or encouraged you about our industry in 2024.

Yeah, quite a few things I didn't actually realize I sat down to write this.

So I think quite often we talk about good things in the industry and we talk about some of the PDIs we see coming into the, into the industry.

And it can be, I guess, sometimes we're in a little bit of danger of kind of generalizing that all these PDIs are coming in, they're all going to be brilliant and all that kind of stuff.

It seems to me that every year through conferences or through the NGC or through Caledonian or specifically through Bright, I just meet, really, every year I meet maybe four or five new people who.

I just know the.

They just get it.

And I would struggle to kind of widen my vocabulary around that.

But just every year, four or five people who just get it, they're joining the industry for the right reasons, you know, that they're not going to be distracted by all the kind of BS that goes on on social media.

And I'm not taking any credit for any of these people at all, but through the conferences or Caledonia or anything, they're just the right kind of people that we want to see in the industry.

I hope that's not been.

Yeah, anyway, just, just the, the good people who I probably caught up, hopefully I'm able to call friends now over the past few years.

So that's, that's been really good.

Not hundreds, because I can't handle that many friends.

I'm an introvert, but enough to kind of help me keep the faith and what we're all kind of trying to do other things.

We've had some really good people join the NGC governing committee that has been extremely positive.

Not just yourself, Terry.

We've had a couple of really strong driving instructors, representatives from local associations joined the governing committee recently.

And that's that.

That's excellent.

It's really encouraging on a kind of national basis.

Just people who want to.

We've.

We've spoken before about people who mourn, about associations and, you know, just what's the point in mourning about it?

If you don't think something's working properly, then do something about it and join and see what happens.

So that's been encouraging.

Other things that have been good milestones, I'm quite interested in.

Chris, I know you work with Carly a little bit on milestones and doing a lot of work there.

I'm quite excited to see what happens with that next year.

I tried to sign up, but I'm not a driving instructor in terms of pupils and all that kind of stuff, so I'm going to roll that out to the Caledonian team.

And then one of the other big things has been Copilot, which is the kind of brainchild of James Evans and Liz Box and another chap whose name I forget, apologies.

And that Copilot is a really good community for road safety practitioners and it's a lot more kind of modern and up to date and just useful than something like road safety gb.

I'm a corporate member of Road Safety gb and to be honest, I'm not sure I'll be renewing.

I think I'm going to stick with Copilot.

So for people like.

For people like us who disseminate information throughout the industry, Copilot is something that's just really good to be involved in.

And it's like a library of not just research papers and articles, but just a really good network of people you can call on and ask for advice as well.

I've not been as active on it the second half of this year as I'd like to be, but next year I've got.

I plan to be really active on there and stealing all the content for social and sharing the good stuff with driving instructors.

It's the stuff what they're doing, it's the stuff that the DVSA should be giving us as a regulator.

No, nobody's asking them to train us, but as a regulator they should be part, maybe responsible for disseminating.

But I think James is going to do it far better than the dvsa.

Yeah, so that's.

That's been really encouraging.

That's my encouraging things.

Some good stuff there.

And I want to touch back on Copilot because I think I'm.

I'm with you on that.

I think it's a wonderful resource, I really do.

And, and I would encourage any Adi maybe not the best phrasing.

Who's got a spare couple hundred quid to sign up to it?

It's maybe not the thing you prioritize, you know there's other things that are more important to a working driving instructor but if you can spare 20 quid a month or you know it's 100 quid a year roughly, do it.

And just to clarify, There is a 5% discount for driving instructors and if anyone needs a link I'll put it in show notes.

So if you can't find it, reach out to me.

James Evans pestered him for that.

I mean it came back with 5% which wasn't bigger discount as I expect him but I just think it is great.

I mean I don't know if anyone heard it but the episode I recorded with Nick Reed recently that came after seeing his presentation on Copilot and I love the way that the.

The course over there are broken down.

They're not like one hour recyc.

It's all broke down little chapters and stuff on it and it's great for networking.

So would, would you encourage driving instructors to sign up Stu or would it be a similar thing to me of maybe not you high on a priority list but still good?

I don't know, Terry, I really don't know.

I think it's probably.

I mean don't let me talk you out of it.

If you want to go and support them, then by all means, please do.

You're basically getting a direct link to Lizbox.

You can ask her questions directly.

Maybe it's worth it just for that alone.

I think it's.

I think James Evans said it's probably not for driving instructors, didn't he?

I didn't make that up kind of.

And I'll just chip inside there because what he said is that he will shape the order needs to be shaped so if he gets the influx of driving instructors he will create more content for while driving instructors.

So I feel at the moment the stuff that's there, it's for the trainers and I think the associations could benefit from it as well and then we can disseminate that information as needs be.

Yeah, interesting to see.

I mean I've not really given that much thought about how you could shape it for driving instructors because I don't think it's a cost issue as such.

I think it's a time, you know, how much time do driving instructors have to sit down and read four research articles a week?

Yeah, probably not, not the vast majority of Them.

I think one of the big things that I'll be utilizing more in 2025 and I haven't done it all so far is I know they've started doing like a Friday.

I don't they call like a catch up and a Q and a kind of thing a couple hours on a Friday.

I think that could be quite interesting.

But I love that some, lots of encouraging stuff there.

Chris, come to you next.

What, what's impressed you?

What's encouraged you?

From this year I've seen a couple of changes in the, the landscape of the industry, if you like.

So I think going back to when I first came into being an instructor 16 years ago, you found out about the industry by looking at the test center wall.

They'd only let the associations put stuff on the test center wall.

So you only heard what the associations were doing that way, you know, if you remember, you might get a magazine that you may or may not read.

And you know, and that was kind of it.

Facebook's come along and as much as Stuart hates it, I, you know, there is a, a set section of the industry because we have to remember it's not everybody.

There's a section of the industry that really has engaged with Facebook and I think that we've finally got to the point where there's a really strong platform for people to be found on, you know, through the likes of the instructor podcast, you know, by trainers being able to be out there and have a Persona and that you can identify who they are, you get to know them a bit better depending on how well they use social media.

And again, it's not all trainers, but there's been this, this, you know, real sort of development of things where it, it wasn't the same few names being mentioned.

Things have grown.

It's given opportunities to new people coming through to stretch their legs and do that sort of thing.

I'm really interested in where that goes next and I'll come back to that because the other thing that I've really noticed is the number of PDIs that have been engaging and have been, you know, putting a lot of us to shame.

I think in the way that they've gone out there and, and grabbed, I grabbed CPD by the horns, been hungry for stuff, have called out some crap which is really good.

I think we need to get better at that and you know, have really gone out there and challenged people and encouraged them to do more.

So the, you know, those two things I think are real positives.

That then brings me onto the thing that I want to see where it goes next, which is the number of people that are coming to me that are now saying, there's all this stuff, where do I start, what's right for me, how do I find the right path?

Is it good just because people are saying it's good on Facebook, you know, or is it going to confuse me?

Especially in the early days, you know, you can't always appeal to PDIs and ADIs in the same measure.

I think people often do, because we're trying to be all things to all people because we're told to be.

DVSA tell us to be our trainers tell us to be, you know, it's all about being client centered and therefore you appeal to everybody.

Well, it's fine on a one to one basis, but it's not necessarily, you know, when you're working with a wider scope, so.

Or in groups.

So I want to see where that goes next.

ADI and JC go for it.

Would love to, you know, to have some kind of recognition for trainers that are out there.

I know we're working on things with the DITC to list things a bit more and kind of, you know, try and encourage some feedback.

But I think, yeah, that's something I'm very aware of and I can see that becoming a problem in the future because from a good thing, lots of people have up their game, lots of people are striking out to do more and that, that's awesome.

But we need to then make sure that we're not suffering from, you know, training where it's being.

What's the word?

Begins with a C.

Is it cascade?

Not crap.

Not.

No, the.

Not crap training, but where it gets filtered down.

Cascade training.

And I think that that's, you know, for me that's, that's the thing that we just need to be really aware of is, you know, is it coming from somewhere good?

Is it coming from.

From strong foundations and we've got some, some awesome people.

We keep mentioning Elizabeth Box.

There's.

There are others out there.

She's just too lovely.

That's the problem.

And, But I was talking to the not so lovely Sean Hellman at the DAA conference.

He's.

He's a lovely bloke, he is.

Alex.

Sean.

Yeah, he's.

No, I just remember and he has apologized since.

When he, When I first encountered Sean, it was because he was saying, I don't care who the driving instructor is, they've just got to sit there next to my son and let him get the hours that he needs.

Uh, he's Softened.

He, he likes us a bit more now.

He, he's seeing the error of his ways.

It's all good.

He, he's, he's a good guy.

But no, there, there's others out there and, and I think we're getting closer to working together and, and that's really good as well.

So we need to embrace that and understand that.

And at the moment it's a bit offset between our understanding and, and what's being delivered.

And we need to fight, figure out ways.

To me, I'm really excited for the next year or so.

We'll say next year because then we could talk about it next, next December, can't we.

Can I ask you a question on that, Chris?

Are you talking about.

I think what you're talking about is we've got to be careful that the.

Training that's being delivered and the advice.

That'S being given is actually kind of like evidence based, to borrow a phrase from the psychologists.

Is that what you mean?

I don't necessarily think it needs to be evidence based because I think sometimes what we do isn't because it's our own, it's our own experience of it and we work in an industry where you can suck it and see and you can see if you get a positive response for it.

Brilliant.

I think what we then often do is we do it the other way around.

We do that and then we go to find out, or we should go to find out why does it work and then find the evidence to back it up.

So I think sometimes by saying evidence based, it's that we've got to have the evidence first.

Actually, it's perfectly fine to go.

This has worked really well.

Now, let's, let's, let's establish why, because that's often where a lot of instructors, I'd probably say the majority come from that side of that education bell curve where it's not necessarily about the academic, it's about the practical side of the teaching.

And I think, yeah, just coming from there.

But I'm really pleased that hopefully is building from both sides and we're going to meet somewhere in the middle that is more positive and is stronger for everyone and doesn't include the dbsa.

The first bit that you said there, I like and I agree with that.

It does overlap slightly into my negatives for the year, so I'll touch back on that shortly.

But I like what you were saying as well about the quality of some of the PDIs.

Not just the PDIs, but the ADIs that are out there.

Now and in particular calling stuff out, that's not good.

And I like that.

You know, I've spoke about this before, that a lot of my members in the querying content will challenge on stuff.

Not in an unpleasant way, but they'll question stuff and they won't just go, oh, Terry said this or so and so said this, so this must be right.

They'll, they'll question it.

And I like that.

And I don't always think that's there.

I think it used to be a bit more the people that accepted everything and the people that rejected everything and now we're getting more people are actually having a thought process.

You agree with that?

Yes, sorry, yeah, yeah, no, I, I, I think that's, yeah, it is more thinking people coming through and that's got to be a good thing.

Except when you're the person being challenged.

Yes.

And like, that's my dad.

Yeah.

No, I, I, I'm all for people challenging me in, in a positive way and it's so much nicer.

And actually that's a change I've seen.

I get less of the, well, that's just stupid comment on Facebook and actually people saying, well, what about this?

And you know, we should bring back debate societies.

I think that's, you know, there's not enough of those around.

That's what we should, that's what we should have.

And in a way that's what we have with six for 60 is, is, you know, a group of trainers debating a point and it's good when we disagree.

But I've been saying this for a while that I keep meaning to create a show that is a debate type show called Contra 4 Conversations, just so I can use that title.

But anyway, there you go.

But yes, it was Susan Bates with this year come onto the podcast, Chris, and held us to account, took us a task for about 30 minutes, which was brilliant.

Yes.

Tom, what's.

What's impressed you or encouraged you about our industry in 2024?

Lots of things, to be honest.

I think there are lots of positives.

I completely agree with Chris in that I think there definitely seems to be a bigger number of not just trainers but ADIs and PDIs who have been more working together.

I think there's always that sort of not standoffishness, but there's always that small barrier because we're all still competitors in the industry.

But I think there's, there's definitely been a big increase in more people working together to benefit the industry and I think that's really good.

Although I think the biggest thing for me that stands out is the younger people that are coming into the industry to sort of push us old folk is out.

Because I think having younger people in any type of industry is always good.

It sort of gives me hope.

Not that I've lost hope, but I just like to see, you know, younger people who are enthused and excited about coming into the industry because I think if they can get experience behind them as well as that enthusiasm, I can just see good things happening.

Yeah, the youth definitely bring in some enthusiasm sometimes, although it does amuse me.

I keep being asked to come on board with stuff, with the sole idea that I'm youthful, I'm young and I will bring the average age down by 10 years and I think I'm 42.

How's that going to work?

Then when I get there I realize, oh yeah, that's how, that's how.

How much of that are you seeing that, that you.

Where.

Sorry, where are you seeing that?

Is that like PDIs coming in?

Are you seeing them coming younger?

Is it people becoming trainers at younger.

Is it, you know, or is it across the board?

Definitely with the driving schools that I work with, I've seen more PDIs coming in that, you know, early 20s to mid 20s.

I can't ever imagine when I was in my 20s thinking I'm going to train to become a driving instructor now.

Whether that's just because advertising is much easier now when people see that availability, but I still see that as a positive because I didn't come into this industry thinking that I'd be in it 13 years later.

It was a stopgap for me until I moved on to something bigger and better.

And then I obviously met Stuart and Chris and you and you know, wonderful.

People in the industry dining area.

No, and there's a few uhms as well because I know you've missed some out.

So I thought I'd add a few in for you.

Terry.

Yeah, definitely the, the, definitely the PDIs, which I think is really good and they've, they've come on especially over the last 12 months a little bit longer to now be qualified and they've shown an interest in road safety, they've shown an interest in progression and cpd and I think I can.

It just feels good.

I just, just think there's a lot of good things there that can happen.

So I'm, I'm with Chris again.

I'm looking forward to seeing what those people can do in a few years time and you know, maybe against popular or Unpopular opinion.

I don't think there's so much of a problem with being new to the industry to then going in to become a trainer.

If you're putting the work in and you're learning from your mistakes and you're going on and gaining lots of additional qualifications and a lot of experience, why can't you go out and help people if you've been in that situation?

And yeah, all positives.

Again, interesting tidbit for you on that.

Actually, this year is the first year where the majority of people listening to the instructor podcasts were under 40.

Previously it was all over 40.

It's now under 40.

And this year I was listened to still.

Apple was my biggest, but Spotify was very, very close.

And it's always been a big gap previously.

And typically the younger the person, the more like I listen on Spotify than Apple.

So there's definitely some kind of skewing going on there.

So.

So that's good.

And I like that fusion.

I've liked the enthusiasm from all three of you there.

I've.

I don't have that same enthusiasm this year.

I think I'm the grumpy old man this year.

But I do have one thing in particular that's impressed me this year.

Do you know what?

No, that's not true.

There's been a few and some of them are the new guys on it.

Some of the stuff that's been created this year has been all awesome.

The three of you.

We can mention all the stuff there that I've said earlier, but there's been other people inspiring training.

I think of the podcast, the way they've taken the podcast especially the second half of this year has been.

I like it essentially.

I think it's been something a little bit different.

I like what they've done with the membership.

I like what Kit have done in particular with the road safety focus on their podcast that they've done this year.

So there's been some things that have come through that I like, but I think the big one for me is the way a lot, not all, but a lot of ADIs have embraced the road safety message that I've been trying to filter through.

And not just ADIs, but it feels like that spread a little bit.

You know, I look at.

I've seen courses now on how to incorporate road safety into driving lessons.

And I'm not saying all this is because of me, by the way, it's a road safety message.

But we go back to the convention before we look at some of the speakers and likes of Liz Box and Dr.

E and Greenwood and you know, this kind of stuff.

And I just think it's being embraced more and it's not being all that road safety thing over there.

They'll leave them to that and, but not just that.

The road safety sector is starting to embrace us a little bit more.

They're starting to reach out to us and incorporate us in this stuff.

And I just think that that's the thing that's making me positive at the minute.

But I think mostly the ADIs are doing it.

Some of the messages I've got after that road safety season and some of the people reached out and saying, oh, I've done this for the first time, I've tried this.

And you know, and I made that little episode I did a while ago talking about how if you're not delivering nighttime lessons, are you delivering safe driving for life or are you delivering safe driving in the daytime for life?

And the number of people that came back to me were like, I've started doing one 10pm lesson a month because of this.

It's like just that.

I think that's the thing that's encouraged me most about, about 2024, as well as some of the awesome stuff that's been part of there, like I mentioned before.

So yes, that's my positive, even if I don't quite share your guys enthusiasm.

But can I, can I interrupt there for a second?

Terry, when you're talking about all the different things and just different areas that people are kind of providing training in, I don't think you've picked us up quite a lot and we're always very grateful to be picked up.

But I don't think you can downplay your own role in that in particular kind of last year and the year before in terms of, and before that, in terms of all the different people that you bring onto your podcast and from outside of the industry, that's for me, that's kind of one of the things that's been carried on.

You've opened the Pandora's box there and other trainers like myself and Phil and other people and Tom are taking that on and just running with it.

But I think you've got a huge, you deserve a huge amount of credit for what you did with that.

Well, I appreciate you saying that.

And I've said this before and I'll say it again, I go back to 2021 and it wasn't there.

If you wanted to find something that was all standard traced and I don't give myself a lot of credit But I do give myself credit for that in that it's now easier to find different stuff and people doing different stuff.

And part of that, you know, did I start the ball rolling there?

Probably, you know, whatever.

I've changed the industry, we'll go with it.

But yes, I appreciate that you put me on the spot, made me feel sheepish.

I'm quickly moving on to quarter three.

News.

And that brings to a close part one of our review of 2024.

Thank you for listening.

Thank you for Stuart and Chris and Tom for joining me on this episode.

Everything we spoke about.

So you can find links for in the comments and be sure to subscribe to the instructor podcast so you get part two into your feeds very frequently, very soon.

But as this episode is going on on New Year's Eve, I want to take a moment just to wish you all a very, very happy New Year.

I really hope that 2025 brings you a lot of joy and some of the things you want, but for now, let's keep raising standards.

The instructor podcast with Terry Cook talking.

With leaders, innovators, experts and game changers.

About what drives them.