Morning, John, how you doing?

Good, Brian. Good morning to you, sir. How are you?

I'm doing great. I just heard some awesome news. Chili's the restaurant group is bringing back their, baby back ribs commercials.

Wow, you're coming in hot with that one

I it's a hot take. And even better than that, they are

That damn song, the damn song's already in my head. Thank you.

you won't get rid of it, and even better, Boyz II Men is, in the commercial singing the song, who people have long thought, the song was built around.

Wow. Wow.

Yeah, so that

This is all news to me and fascinating news at that.

so good. Look that up. That was, that was really a fun way to wake up this morning.

Well, uh, I'm glad you've had such a good start to your day. Mine has been, little bit more discombobulated, including switching to, what might be a crappy microphone. I'm not sure, so we'll see.

We'll see how that comes out. One other element about that commercial that I really like that. I think you're going to really love is the amount of snaps that they put into the new Chili's baby back ribs commercial.

nice, nice.

Yeah. So, uh, the snap attack is, uh, is really high in that one. Let's get started.

Right on, giddy up.

let's get right into our first snap decision. John, I've been reading a lot lately about, direct to consumer brands and kind of where they're at. And actually where they're not at. There's been a lot of investment in, in these types of brands, the last several years. We've seen them all over the place with, dollar shave club, uh blue apron,

Casper mattresses.

yeah, Casper, all these brands and, unfortunately. they've been extremely overvalued and, I was reading an article in Fast Company this week that really talked about how they're almost becoming zombie brands where, they exist in name only and, and what's behind them is. Not anywhere near what their original purpose was and the way that they operate, has kind of been hollowed out and, that really, was an interesting, look at where they're at in the marketplace now and how, investment companies have, overinvested in this.

So, so Brian, when you say zombie brands, is that referring to like a brand that, that previously was something different and now is a direct consumer or, or, or tell me more about what that means.

so that means that, they still exist, sort of. They exist in name only, but the operations behind it, is completely different. So, in the case of blue apron, who, was really going down a path of like sourcing their own food and bringing a whole sustainability lens to the type of food prep that they, um, to the consumer directly and kind of cutting out the middleman. they're now operating in a completely different way where they're, they're not even sourcing their own food anymore, and they're outsourcing the, the food itself and more focusing on, recipes and marketing and, kind of leveraging their name and not the way that they operate, which is really interesting.

Should I think of the example of, Bed Bath and Beyond kind of after going bankrupt and being bought by Overstock, no longer has stores. Well, there are stores, there are big empty, husks of stores out there that you drive by, but now the brand is. Still existing online, but run by Overstock as an e commerce brand. is that a relevant example of what you're talking about here?

In a way, yeah. And, uh, you know, another example is, is Converse who was bought by Nike and, you know, Converse name still has some, some play, but it's run completely by Nike, which was a former competitor. So, you know, they still, they still operate, but not, you know, not in the same way, or, in this case through a, an entirely different operator. another example is a, is a company called authentic brands group, which, Really picks up and owns these types of, companies that go bankrupt and, and owns the licensing and IP behind it. And then they, they form out other people to do the retail part, and then they just kind of use the marketing purposes, which is, it was just fascinating to me and another. Direct to consumer brand that's kind of faltering right now that was overvalued is, is Allbirds, which was kind of a darling a few years ago and, and is kind of falling on hard times as well. And, and so, so my snap decision for you is, will this impact how people bring products to consumers moving forward? Our brands. overestimating who they are and what they want to be and what do you think about that

I think most brands overestimate, what they, what they want to be. Yeah. I do think that there are an awful lot of brands. I mean, the, the examples you've just shared there, there are a ton of them where a brand kind of peaked, you know, had its run, and then went into some sort of lull or bankruptcy or something. But there's still some, combination of IP and consumer. enthusiasm or emotion tied to it. so, you know, I, I think about, I mean, the one that kind of jumps into my mind from a while ago, and it's a little different from the direct consumer piece you're talking about, but Abercrombie and Fitch, which I, I didn't even realize when it kind of became a team brand in the nineties, that was a total reinvention. And I think it's second reinvention, right? It, lived for like. think almost a century as a true hardcore outdoor outfitter, right? There was like hunting gear and fishing gear and like legit stuff. And then I think fell in hard times, did get reinvented as a direct consumer brand. I think it was like a mail order, but still in the hunting thing. So they kind of like took their core. Woke it back up later, you know, direct consumer to back in the catalog days and then went completely into the shadows until someone who I don't even know who but eventually ended up as part of the limited Group of brands I think right? But there was some brand awareness and provenance, I guess around Abercrombie and Fitch That someone turned into a teen brand, a teen fashion brand, kind of wild how that one just totally got reinvented. which is a little different from what way I think some of these brands get restored, which is to really go back to their core, what they stood for. but I think that that is increasingly a hard proposition. I think usually these brands got to kind of reinvent themselves.

Yeah. you know, the direct to consumer model, is fascinating just in the fact that, know, you're cutting out the retail stores and You're able to really just build a relationship with the consumer directly and not rely on, placement in those places basically rely on on everybody else to do your work for you. But, you know, that, that costs a lot more money to do it that way.

yeah. Money, money, a big part of the formula,

that's a lot of things, right?

Yeah, you know, think about your, converse example, which is, a great one. I don't know how much they faded before Nike bought them, but I think they're, they've kind of become a little bit irrelevant. Nike really leaned into that as an old school, cool brand, right? But it's Nike. So you know, there was a combination of. And I think this may be, is maybe a formula that others will have followed and can follow, which is like smart marketing, right? Nike's known for that. Plenty of dollars and nostalgia. You know, I think, I think you put those things together and you got a chance at a good revival.

And I think that's when a company like Authentic Brands Group is, is snatching up some of these bankrupt brands, I think that's what they're, they're really trying to get people to hang on that, that nostalgia.

I feel like if you don't have that kind of nostalgia or some sort of strong brand connection with, you know, strong brand position in the consumer's head, trying to restore an old brand is probably just like building a new one.

the interesting thing with the dollar shave club, which had really a model that our mission that struck at people was the, you know, shaving became such an expensive thing to shave in a really more efficient way so they, they were able to build a lot of, of equity in the, in the marketplace, but, uh, and then Unilever bought them and then all Unilever is kind of spinning them off because, you know, I, I guess they couldn't make the type of money that, you know, targeted to make or whatever, but

Well, it's hard to live up to the expectations that get created when you are viral. Out of the gates, right? Which is really how Dollar Shave Club burst on the scene, They did that amazing viral launch ad with their founder. tried to recreate it, you know, in another version a couple years later, a year later, but I don't think they ever tapped into the virality they launched with. And I'm going to guess they were fairly, yes, this is speculation. They were probably fairly overvalued based on a really strong market presence that came from something that's kind of hard to, it's hard to recreate a viral ad.

it's like the thing that they always say at, at, marketing conferences, when, when you get the brief and it's like, you know, I want to, how do I go viral?

Yeah, create something viral. Oh, sure.

Sure. Let me just, let me just do that.

There's a formula. We'll just

There's a formula. Uh, we're just going to go viral and then we'll go from there. speaking of brands that shifted, uh, there's one really interesting, uh, today, you know, it's fascinating to hear the shift of Abercrombie. But what about Stanley? teenagers are bringing them to school every single day and all of them have it and they all, um, are carrying around everywhere they go. So talk about a shift from, you know, you talk about Abercrombie, a shift from hunting to teens. Stanley's kind of doing the same thing.

Well, educate me. I don't know, I don't know what the, the teen affiliation to Stanley is. What are we, what are we carrying?

Well, the drink mugs,

Gotcha. Gotcha. Oh, right. Right. Right. I did hear about this.

Yeah. So, um, and I know that

am I correct in that? Fascinating.

And so, I think consumers went through the Yeti phase and now it we're in the Stanley face, Yeah, so that's kind of fascinating because that's, you know, always been construction worker kind of brand and, hat type of thing. And now, uh, you have teenage girls. So,

Maybe, maybe more weekend warrior than, than hard hat, but, but either way, uh, it's certainly a shift.

yeah. Yeah. All right. So, uh, what do you got for me?

Alright, so, uh, I did not prepare a thoughtful, well investigated, topic like your direct to consumer brand and zombie brand conversation, but I did put together a, uh, Snap Decisions lightning round, extremely ill informed edition. Um, yeah, I think, maybe it's a new segment, you know, because we're, what, three episodes in here, why not have another segment? Um, this, this is. Top of mind, man. Just, I want real time reactions to some questions I'm going to post to you. Some are really important, and some are not.

oh, great. Put me in the hot seat.

Exactly. None of them are really important. And, by the way, uh, feel free to rename this segment from the Snap Decisions Lightning Round Extremely Ill Informed Edition, because that's a little clunky. Alright, you ready?

Let's do it.

Let's start simple. Coke or Pepsi?

Coke.

headlines or super strong call to action buttons?

I'm going to go call to action buttons.

I knew you would. Is it ever okay to serve a breakfast sandwich on an untoasted English muffin?

No.

Thank you. That, that's the first, that's the only question with a right or wrong, and you're correct. It is never

Okay. Good. This is an all judgment zone.

Yeah, there's a, there's a story behind this, but it's boring, but suffice to say it had me, um, had a granola level of anxiety.

Yes. I can see, I can feel the grumpiness there. That's good. Apple.

can, who consistently, consistently over time, out, uh, two decades, over the past two decades, turns out the best advertising Nike or Apple. Ooh, didn't even hesitate. Tomorrow morning, Brian. Aliens arrive. And install a new worldwide government.

Geez, now I'm scared.

gets weirder.

Where are you going?

to outlaw either beer or bourbon. I'm not sure why, but they're an alien race and really intelligent, so they must have a reason. They're going to outlaw either beer or bourbon. Which one of those upsets you the most?

oh man, that's a good one. I need to eliminate beer. So, uh, I don't want them to take away the bourbon.

Oh, okay. All right. I, I didn't expect that.

Okay. I mean, I don't want, I don't want them to get rid of either, but

Uh, I, I will, I'll only do one more. Um, driving your own car forever or eventually being a passenger in an autonomous car.

I got to drive your own car forever. I mean, this is ridiculous.

Oh, wow. Right. Okay. All right.

It's all about the loss of control there.

Okay. Loss of control or the glory of sitting in a small living room doing whatever you want. Well, you are effortlessly and safely escorted to your destination, perhaps while drinking bourbon. I mean, come on Brian.

I support the evolution of how we get from A to Z. I just don't know how I'm gonna, you know, easily give up the control there, but yes, we do need to do that and, uh, I'm fascinated by the autonomous driving thing. I just, I don't know how I'm going to sit in the car and go with it, Give me a lot more bourbon and I'll be all right.

all right This feels like a future episode actually because I remember you and I had a similar kind of mind blown reaction Watching the Waymo self driving Jaguars driving around San Francisco about a year ago,

Yeah. Yeah. All

all right. Yeah, that's it. I mean, I have more, but I'll save them. Maybe, maybe we'll do it again sometime. Do more lightning round after you give it a good name.

right. Well, um, I, I like it. Thanks for, uh, thanks for the new segment. I think, I we go from that one to a, uh, to a regular one.

Oh, a regular and extremely popular, uh, damn near viral segment.

get me viral. All right. So John, uh, in this week's hopelessly unattainable guest. Uh, I'm gonna go for, uh, I'm gonna go for Michael Jordan.

Ooh.

So, we've had Tim Cook. Last week, you, uh, desperately pleaded for Taylor Swift to join the show. I'm gonna go with MJ. And remember, these are moonshots. These are people that, might take a little more effort to get on the show than, somebody that might be willing to sit down and talk to, podcast legends like you and I. But,

Just, just a little harder to get. Yeah.

So, this is my, plea to Michael Jordan to come and join our show. I, I have a lot of respect for this guy and who wouldn't want to sit down with MJ, right? So let's see, let's see if this does the trick, okay? You ready?

do it. Oh, there's a plea. Let's hear the plea.

All right. Hello, Michael. Can I call you Mike? You're a legend, a hero to all, an inspiration for following and achieving your dreams. But for me, you terrified my youth. Your bulls always killed my sixers. We stood no chance. Everyone wore your jersey, walked in your shoes, worshipped your every move. I hated it. You were better than us. Better than me. Six championships. My team still hasn't won since 1983. But let's make amends. I'm not bitter. We'd love to have you on Snap Decisions, a new podcast where we discuss and break down the past and blockers in life. I'm over my childish feelings. We want to learn about your journey. We can talk about your gold medals, your scoring titles, your critical acclaim. Nike, the riveting Last Dance documentary. How you became a billionaire But also, May 12th, 1991. My dad and I had tickets to Game 4 of the Eastern Conference Semifinals with family friends against your bulls. But we could never find those friends outside the spectrum when we tried to meet up. There were no cell phones back then, of course. After 40 minutes, we gave up and drove away. My dad bought me ice cream as I cried the whole way home. You beat us by 16 and closed out the series two days later. It's alright. It's fine. I'm over it. I really want to hear about you and your ever thriving Jordan brand and the impact you've had on kids all over the world. And Charles Barkley, couldn't he just figure out how to beat you? Did it really have to be that hard? I guess we'll never know. But let's talk. I promise a stable and prominent stage with an objective lens. You won't regret it. Sincerely, Snap Decisions.

Wow.

You think? You think he's gonna...

If, if, if he hears the lingering resentment and bitterness in your voice the way I do, I mean, I know you said you've, you're over it. You didn't sound even remotely over it. That's true. You really went to a playoff game and you, you, you couldn't meet up the people that had your tickets? Is that what happened?

That's what happened? That

God. Yeah.

was devastating.

Yeah. You think?

Yeah, we, uh... My dad heard that we were going to meet at a, uh, at a punter statue that the, that was outside veteran stadium, which

I remember the punter statue, yeah.

veteran stadium was right across the street from the spectrum. And, uh, it was behind the veteran stadium, which, you know, it was kind of far away from the spectrum. I don't know why we thought we were going to meet there, but apparently, uh, our friends were waiting on the steps of the spectrum for us the whole time.

Wow. Are you, are you, are

that was that. And so we, they, they did end

did you remain friends with those people?

taking us to a game a couple, a couple of years later when Barclay was on the suns and he came back to play the Sixers. And of course the Sixers lost that game too, but, um, it's all good.

What? Look, let me answer your question. Yes, I think MJ, we got a shot at MJ if we land either Tim Cook or Taylor Swift. I think he's, I feel like as, as, as pioneering and trailblazing as Michael Jordan is and was. I think he's going to need that credibility. So we got to, we got to land that kind of A list or that moonshot to get him to say yes.

Yeah. So what is our, who's our, who's, who's our best shot so far out of all of our hopelessly unattainable guests? Is it Tim cook? Is it Taylor Swift or is it Michael Jordan?

Well, I mean, we're approaching his 0 percent chance on all of them. So it's probably a dead heat. Underline hopelessly unattainable,

All

I'm not, I won't give up hope and get one stuff starts falling into place. You never know.

I like your attitude. It's good.

Exactly. Um, all right, well, thanks for, thanks for coming loaded for bear with your, uh, with your, uh, your hopelessly unattainable guest and your, your, your brand conversation. Always a pleasure. before we go, should we tease the next guest or not?

Yeah. Why don't you, uh, go for

Okay, I'll leave it at this. This guy's basically the Michael Jordan of Paralympic skiing. How about that?

I like it. I like it.

I'll leave it there.

Can't wait to see where we go with that.

on the next episode of Snap Decisions.

Chili's baby back ribs.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha. Screw you. See ya.