You can use whatever code you want. Can you hold space for me right now?

Because it's not going to be pretty. Yes, I can. Okay, cool. Then

I'm holding space. I have no judgment. I have no opinion. I'm not going to

defend myself. I'm not going to defend you. I'm just going to allow

you to do whatever it is that you need to do.

And then at the end, we have a phrase of, are you

complete? Welcome to The King Within, a podcast for men who seem

to have it all, yet feel like they're losing what matters most. I'm

Mike Salemi, and I've been there. Successful on paper, but disconnected on

the inside. This isn't about grinding harder. It's about mastering

your emotions, leading with calm strength, and rebuilding

trust at home. Each week we dive into real stories and tools for becoming

the man your family runs towards, not away from, because you didn't

build this life to lose yourself in it. This is The King Within. Let's do

the work. So one thing that's really top of mind is

challenge, challenge, fights, conflict

like that, the energy of that and

how that's experienced in relationship individually and in the

relationship. But when you see— and let's see where this goes—

but when you find a couple that gets stuck, let's say the

same fight, we could come up, we can make an assumption whether it's around

money, whether it's around I don't know, choices around food. But

when a couple gets in the same fight over and over and

over, can you start helping me and us start

maybe peeling back the layers of what might actually

be happening underneath of this repetitive

conflict that tends to arise? Or what goes through your mind? Where do you, where

do you tend to look or want to explore within that? It's the million-dollar

question, I guess, right? So Widow, will we jump

in with this one? So I would say one of the things that I'm most

sensitive to is

trying to first understand

their biases, my bias,

where I'm sensitive, where they may or may not be as sensitive

to me, and understand that

my historical conditioning creates a filter,

a lens. A lot of times when I'm working with clients

and couples, uh, most of them are old enough to remember Elton John

and his psychedelic outfits and his glasses. So

I refer to people in that regards— we wear these

glasses, and if they are orange-tinted

glasses We see the whole world through orange,

and they might have purple-colored glasses, and they're seeing

the world through purple. One of the things

that begins the journey is we have

to take the glasses off in order

to gain some level of clarity.

So for me, the colored glasses are our conditioned

ideas about how we feel, what we believe,

our limiting beliefs, our associations, how we've interpreted

who or what we are as an individual since infancy and through

childhood. That's reinforced. That

evolves into then how I see others and I see the world.

And in particular, we're talking about relationships. So

really getting clear with both of them

Understanding and on some level appreciating that,

that then leads into until we take the

glasses off, we truly—

I have experienced we're not going to solve our

problems at all. And

what that looks like is, one, the courage and

curiosity to say and experience what could be beyond

the colors of these glasses. Is one

factor. The other factor is, is

that a lot of times people approach this where,

well, if I just switch my glasses to a different color, will

that help? And then that gets into just reshuffling. It's like

a shell game we play with ourselves and try to

repackage our historical conditioning, which that

too, I feel like, doesn't reconcile the

heart and the mind as to what's really going on with those underlying dynamics

within the relationship. Relationship. And so it's an

invitation and a journey for them individually to

take off the glasses, which would be similar

to psychological terms like coming out of one's

psychological trance, meaning that I'm stuck in a

psychological, emotional framework

mentally and emotionally, and I just don't seem to be able to get out of

it. I refer a lot of times to like being stuck in the rabbit hole.

I've gone down and I just cannot see the left

nor to the right. So it's about inviting them

to come back out from that perspective.

And we can get into the techniques that one could explore to do

that. But unless both of them are—

unless they're willing to take those glasses off

and then look at the, quote, supposed problem,

If both don't take the glasses off, then we're still talking

over, through, under each other with our biases

and our heart, our hurts and our conditioning. All

of that is still active and present. And no matter how

logical, grounded, or stoic I'm

presenting something, it's not

landing psychologically. They are present. Their eardrums

hear the reverberation. They know that there's talk. But it's

truly an interpretation of through my conditioned response.

And so until that's addressed,

it's very— I have found very difficult for

relationships to get aligned and

work through, transmute, overcome, address

these conflicts that you were referring to that we have.

So if I were to summarize it as A, acknowledge that we have

glasses, that they're biased.

Be willing to be curious and have the courage to take the

glasses off genuinely.

And then number 3, explore within myself

where and how my conditioning makes it difficult for me to want to take those

glasses off and want to keep them on because

I've used that as a form of protection and safety.

And we can get into that as well, but there's all kinds of

whys. And then ultimately is then

still addressing the conflict, but now

with a fresh set of eyes and an open heart.

And I feel like if both can— are willing

to approach something similar to that, then

there's hope to work through that, because then there is

genuine no age to regress or no trance

activated, we're not triggered, we're not— we've minimized

how much I'm coming from a place of

frustration, lack of belief, or an interpretation. That's

how my dad used to handle that, or that's how my mom used to handle

it. Now I've learned how to cope with that for this way. And those

protections fall to the side, right? And then we can have an honest,

a more honest conversation, and then we can be vulnerable. Yeah,

I can say, I acknowledge my likes

and biases are because I've been trying to protect myself in a

relationship. And that's how I watched my parents relate, and

I thought that that was a successful way to manage

my approval of them. And now that I take the glasses off, I can

see clearly. I can see, hey, I've— I'm operating—

I had been operating in that way. And it's

understandable that you might be frustrated with me from

coming from that place. So then we start getting vulnerable.

We start talking about our conditioning as if it's something

that is acknowledged fully and you're

considerate of how it's impacting the relationship. And then

I feel like it's reciprocal. Then people start talking. Then the other person

starts getting a little bit softer. And, and the next thing you know,

we're dealing with the conflict. But like I said, with those fresh set of

eyes and, and then that really brings about restoring,

transmuting, healing, whatever word that fits for us. But

there's a reconciliation of this conflict in a more meaningful

way. And then you can approach it as such.

The last thing I'll say here, Mike, is that I've experienced where

if people still have a tinge of an agenda, it is, I

need you to change. Like, I need you to acknowledge your conflict

with me. And until you quote unquote change your

literal behaviors, we're going to always have conflict.

So it's almost like putting one

foot in and one foot out of taking the glasses off. Yeah,

a lot of times people are looking for the other to ensure that

they make the changes to eliminate the

conflict. Like if you, you need to do X, Y, and Z

in order for this conflict to go away. So they're one foot in

of taking the glasses partially off, and

it's still, you know, on the tip of their nose, so to speak. They're kind

of like bifocals at that point, you know, they could see beyond it,

but there's a subtle agenda

with this reconciliation part. So for

me, until they fully take the glasses off, take

responsibility for their part, really consider how their conditioning has been

driving the bus on how they are seeing things through those orange or

purple tinted glasses, remove them

and be vulnerable, and also then work through

the conflict. Because that gives you, if you will,

no pun intended here, a fighting chance to work through the

conflict. If not, you're still in

and out of, and mostly out of or in, your age-regressed

or trance or your old conditioned patterns.

And that's when we can't resolve conflict. When you were

talking about, like, I really appreciate the example of protecting,

right? Like, and I think giving more color as we are

continuing to give more color into some of the ways that this can look will

be super helpful. And that piece that you

just shared about expecting the other person to change, and I want to like

define some terms as well. I know you and I were talking about that before.

One of the things I'd love to hear when you're, when you're talking about I'm

expecting the other person to change, can you break down like how would you define

codependency, healthy codependency if there is such,

unhealthy codependency, and that expectation that,

or I'm doing this so that the other person will change or they have to

change. Can you break down what is codependency to you and especially

unhealthy codependency? Um, so codependency

for me, I'll say there's multi-levels.

So I would say in my

relationship with Zayna, there are some

physical codependencies that I have with her

in relationship. So I am

codependent upon her showing up and being physically present for us if

we want to be intimate sexually and sensually. Uh, there's a

dependency that I can lift heavy weight. So if

we're moving or I need to carry things from the car upstairs,

there's an inherent dependency on my contribution

to our relationship. So for me,

there, there's different levels. And those are just

physical examples where I would say

codependency, which is the typical language I

think we've— we use within the realm of self-development

and psychology and spirituality.

Codependency, I would say

99.9% of the time is dysfunctional,

in my opinion. Yeah. And for me,

if we think and feel like my partner is

responsible to take away my mental and emotional

and spiritual dissatisfaction with life or

my pain or you fill in the blank.

That to me is when it becomes very toxic, because

we're looking for someone outside of ourselves

to provide happiness, peace.

That is more of a psychological-based

understanding. So I am giving myself away

in my psyche to the power of someone outside of myself

to put something inside of me mentally or

emotionally so that I can feel okay and good or

satisfied or at least peaceful within

myself. So to me, that's where the

codependency is toxic,

negative. I'm not sure the right word that lands, but I don't find it

functional. Maybe that's a good word to say. I don't

find that area of life codependency as being

functional. We have to survive in some level

within life, navigating life, paying the bills. So there's environmental

factors. I'm codependent. My partner and her

contributions, right or wrong, good or bad. So how

do we take care of the home? How do we take care of kids? How

do we get them this? How do we get them that? You know, there is

an inherent dependency that people have upon each other. And I think those

are functional and necessary to survive and thrive in life.

It is ultimately that the psychological codependency

that I think gets us into trouble, where we think,

Mike, if you don't do X, Y, and Z,

that satisfies all of Lauren's filters,

conditions. It's almost like going through all these different tollgates, right,

that you have to pass for her within her

own mental and emotional well-being. For her to say, ah,

Mike's a good guy, I'm not triggered. He's

actually soothing. I'm using what Mike— my

experience of Mike and soothing myself with it. And then

therefore, sometimes you're the best husband in the world.

And other times when you don't do X, Y, and Z and take away my

inner conflict, you know, you're the worst guy in the world.

And we all deal with that. And in I'm picking on you, but

that applies to every, every relationship under the sun. And that's where I

feel like this dependency criteria can be helpful

when we look at it through multi-layers. That's

fascinating, Jay, and I really appreciate that. And I want to—

you know, there's something that comes up in the— at least

like in, I would say, like, I don't know, the modern men's movement, like the

men's work that I'm familiar with, and even just what I hear a lot in

relationships. And there's— and I'm clearly

generalizing here, right? But just for the sake of putting this out,

let's just say a wife. A wife says, I

don't feel safe with you. I don't trust you. I don't

trust you because you're out of integrity, right? You're not

doing, I don't know, certain things that you said you would do, or

what a man of integrity lives. So I don't trust you. I don't feel safe.

With you. And so if I'm to open up, if I'm to want

to have, you know, intimacy or sex or whatever with what the man really wants—

both people want, but let's say the man's really driving that— what's your

thoughts on, uh, what's underneath that for both people?

I need you to be a certain way so I can trust you more

or feel safer with you. And yeah, I'll let you take it from there.

Yeah, thanks, Mike.

Um, I think the trusting in the

lack of trust all begins and ends

within oneself. So

I'm always— my fundamental bias is that

trust or no trust is still an inside job first

and foremost. And so then the questions,

it just becomes a journey to ask oneself, okay,

is my lack of trust because I

am interpreting all of these behaviors through an old

pattern of conditioning that I have and ideas

that I have with men or women,

whatever the dynamics are? So

exploring one's inner world about this concept

around trust— what I trust, what I don't trust—

I think is full stop. That's where the

initial accountability and responsibility around trust needs to happen.

I think if both of them, both persons,

were to first look at, is my distrust

on behalf of my conditioned patterns,

or Is it on behalf of we, you and I have

another option here is we both have an agreement. The agreement

could be is we value

quality time together. And

we had, we had none this week, so to speak.

And now you're choosing to go out with the boys and

get drunk or party or stay out late or just socialize.

It doesn't have to be drinking. And that would have

been the only window this week of quality time, but you both have made

an agreement that we will prioritize the relationship and its quality time is

number one. Now, if that was repeatedly violated,

so to speak, over and over again, uh, can

someone draw the conclusion of a lack of trust about

what that agreement means for each of them? Yes,

that trust can erode from something very practical or of

an existing agreement that you have. So then it would

foster, ideally, a conversation about,

we have an agreement. Can we just take a step back and say,

what do agreements mean for us individually and then

collectively? If we're going to treat

this agreement with

the level of trust and honor

Are we vulnerable to every other agreement that we have? So can we

have that conversation? So I think it leads to those

hopeful conversations to take a step back and

ask the bigger questions. And then you can get into

getting into the very specific agreement that you have and say, my

experience of this agreement to be honored is X. What

is your— which— what's Y for you? And do we

need to revisit this agreement? Maybe the agreement needs to be

adapted. Maybe we need to get even more clarity

about the practical application of this agreement so

that my expectations and any

ambiguity with this agreement that I had that I didn't maybe give as

much voice to is further detailed or

delineated so that we move forward

with this revised agreement and learning

from what it meant to have these experiences, our respective experiences with

this lack of showing up for each other in whatever way that

that might have looked like. So in summary, Mike, I think of it as

the trust or no trust ultimately is a signal

to the relationship that we need to have a heartfelt

conversation. That's to me the number one

criteria or a the number one indicator,

rather than minimizing each other's perspectives

and blowing off, et cetera.

So, you know, those are some key things maybe worth considering. Yeah, I

really appreciate that. Because when you were out here as well, like one of the

questions when we were hanging out on the couch that you posed to Lauren and

I, when we were just having a discussion, was the

invitation for us to individually clarify and

define what is connection. To each of us.

And, uh, you know, Lauren, in the, in the lens of the,

let's say, the Enneagram, Lauren's core type is a Type 2, the helper.

As you know, my core type is a Type 1. The same for you and

Zayna. I've also got clients that fall into this, basically

the same, uh, pattern, let's just say.

And what I'm hearing too is just the important— whether it's connection, whether it's trust,

uh, whether it's integrity, like the importance of

defining or clarifying, deepening

individually what and how do we experience these things that

we so deeply want, right? Like we want to, yes, trust. I think at

the deepest level, trust ourselves, trust our experience of our partner, to feel

connected with our partner. But I thought that was really profound because it's

not a question that we really ever really

explored, as wild as that is. And I would imagine many people too, I would

say the vast majority, have not explored How they define

that and then what can come up from that type

of dialogue. And, um,

so if you have thoughts on that, I'd love to hear, and I'd love to

also, as an example, through,

uh, using the Enneagram as like an

identification or, uh, of patterns, let's say,

I think the heart of what I'd love to ask is

not only why is it so important to get this clarity in relationship, but

also to— like, you, you had mentioned multiple times the

filters. Can you give us some examples of those filters? And

let's just say a Type 1 and a Type 2 in, in a scenario like

this. Yeah, so just real

quick, a couple of definitions of terms for ourselves, right? So

just throw— I'll throw some names out there. So the American Psychological

Association defines personality as Patterning of

thinking, feeling, emoting, and behaving.

So the personality assessment that I

co-created helps us understand that through the

lens of the Enneagram. So it takes the theory of personality,

uh, personality types, personality methodology, and says,

okay, within that umbrella, the Enneagram is just one

way to do that. There are 9 personality types. From

a personality perspective, all of them have a strength,

strengths plural, and, and weaknesses. They're gender

neutral, age neutral. You are born with

a predisposition for one. All other

8 come and go in regards to

the intensity of how you either engage with

that type or how you avoid that type or how you use

them situationally. Uh, from there

through childhood all the way up, um,

we put on these personas, which is another

way of saying a mask of ideas

about how we see ourselves, others in the world. We take on these fundamental

beliefs about ourselves. And in the

world that I teach and coach on in regards to the

Enneagram, so there's 9 different types. And yet there's 9

core beliefs of a sense of lack,

agitation, and separation that lead

to your personality type's belief system as a result

of that, right? So maybe just restate it as

in, in infancy and early childhood, we have this sense of lack,

separation, and agitation. It's a sensation. It's an experience

in the body. As the nervous system matures,

you know, I'm sure we've talked about this before with Luca. He sees an object,

and in the beginning, he didn't see it as his or yours or anyone's. It

was just— and it was just his. And there's a unicity

around everything. There's just total

one symbiotic engagement with life. And then as

his nervous system matured, he started saying, my bottle or

my toy. And I am different than the little boy

when he's going to school and stuff like that. I'm different than mom and dad.

So the nervous system matures, and with that maturity

comes a shock to the body that I am

separate. And then we are pre-verbal. We don't have all the skills

that we supposedly have as an adult. And then there is this

inherent or innate adoption of a

belief about oneself that contributed to

this sense of lack that I, that I'm experiencing as an

early, early young kid. And so each of the 9 types

experiences or codifies their belief about

themselves through their 9 types. So for the Type 1, it is

all of this is occurring because I must be imperfect and that there's something wrong

with me. And then the Type 2 is this is

going on in my life because I am worthless.

And each of the 9 types: I am powerless, I am

incomplete, I am inadequate. I can go on and on,

but fill in the blank that each one has their core

belief that they believe not only about themselves, but others

that are projected onto others and projected onto the world.

So when you— those are the glasses, right? I referred to

earlier, Ellen Jarrin glasses. So You know, like each— you

could think of each of the 9 types as having their own unique

color of glasses. So the Type 1

is orange, Type 2 is purple, red is for the 3,

green is for the 4, so on. So when we, as a result, early on

put on those glasses, then our environment and

our experiences shape how thick those glasses become,

which means how much we over-identify and become very

rigid or myopic in seeing the world in that very biased

manner. And that's when we have two people come together

with different levels of thickness of glasses and different

colors and a.k.a. different filters and conditioning

are then clashing. Right. So that to me

is a quick little summary of how that

evolves into all of those dynamics. I like the

visual of the thickness of the glasses. And so it was

really just bringing it home in a a way that could, could

paint a picture of how two types can use the

awareness, right? Because I think in Wolinsky's book, which is a book that

you recommended, something called like Intimate Relationships, I don't know if it

was his stance or he was sharing from a teacher, but in there, and you've

said this, like we first need to be aware of what

we're trying to let go of, or it's helpful to be aware of what we're

trying to let go of for us to let go of it. I'm paraphrasing. Yeah.

You can't let go of something until you know what that is.

Yeah. So if someone, and I think in part what would be

really helpful because like even with this knowledge of, okay, I see the

world, which I super resonate with, as there's something,

or especially historically in a lot of the, when I think back to the

most painful charged moments, the most difficult plant

medicine experiences, when I look at my journal and I like review what was going

on, I was like, wow, how I was interpreting what came up

that event. When she said this, or when

this business deal went this way, or when mom and dad did this,

when I really felt into why did this affect me so

deeply, and I dig deep enough, more often

than not, I would touch on some aspect of like, wow, I really

am petrified or was petrified. It made me feel somatically

like I made a mistake or there's something wrong with

me. And so I just realized, like, holy shit,

like, the awareness of this when I'm in the shit, if I'm aware of

it enough and I'm not completely like in the bottle

per se, I can actually recognize like, oh

damn, like I'm on the goggles right now. And so I think the

awareness is key. And like, I've heard this from clients, like, how

do I like, like, one, be aware of it? How in the fuck do I

take this off? Like, to your point earlier, if

I'm in relation, both people are charged,

like that process of being aware and taking it off. I'd love for you to

talk us through that, but let's use the example through maybe the

1 and the 2 as an example for this. Yeah, sure. Uh, thanks for

calibrating me there. Yeah. Um, yeah, so remember,

so that the Type 1 is looking at it through that there is something wrong

with me, I am imperfect. The fear of making mistakes

and the shame of being bad. And bad meaning a character

flaw, like I'm flawed with my character and my

code. The Type 2 is coming from it through I

feel, I believe, and the belief is so

visceral. I mean, you can't negotiate with this. It has

been believed in since childhood that I am worthless.

I have the fear of being rejected. And the shame of not

being valued, right? So when you have those ingredients, those,

those are the glasses we're wearing. So how do you

take the glasses off? Uh, part of it is, number

one, is acknowledging that I have glasses to

begin with. Um, that's got

to be a prerequisite, number one.

So, uh, One, well, that's why

I use my assessment, which is to go through this with people so that

they can see for themselves how their

graph, their psychological fingerprint, is actually showing up in

which of the 9 types they're using to protect themselves

and to navigate life, and ultimately

how they've been trying to overcome that which they believe

about themselves, which creates a lot of this inner conflict.

I believe this about myself deep down, a lot of times

unconsciously, subconsciously. And yet what we're

conscious of are these patterns of compensation

for trying to disprove that which I believe about myself,

which I really don't want to. But

I'm at the mercy of all of that conditioning. So although

the adult intellect might understand that 1

1 2, the little boy in

us might say, no, that's 8. And we're going to still live

from the place that it's 8, right? So

step number 1 is being really

clear or having that presented to them for them

to consider ways in which they have not considered

those pattern conditions. To the quote you were

just referencing, you can't let go of something unless you know what it

is. So, you know, Carl Jung and other people make the quote and

references, until you bring the conscious to light, you're going to call

it fate, etc., that famous quote. So I

find that's very, very similar, right? So we have to

first come to terms with what are the patterns that

I'm in, I've engaged in throughout life, and

then really start reflecting on, well, what is that

core, most fundamental primal belief that

I've adopted since early, early childhood. For us, Mike, the

Type 1 is, I'm imperfect, there's something wrong with me. And for

the Type 2, it's, I am, or I am worthless. So until

I can see those patternings come

up for myself, then yes, I have that level

of awareness. Belaboring that point, but that's step number 1.

Step number 2 is then saying, I'm going

to stop, hold up, and I'm going

to put— pump the brakes, so to speak. Now,

I use a metaphor sometimes. You might be historically in

a speedboat, and initially you throw that speedboat

into neutral. The wake of the boat is still going to carry you forward to

some degree, but you begin— so it's not typically a

hard stop, like you don't just start changing patterns of 30 and

40 and 50 years at the drop of a hat.

So it becomes a process. And you—

I would encourage everyone to be patient,

to undo what's been done for decades. So it's like throwing

that boat into neutral. The wake of the boat's still going to carry it,

but the velocity, the intensity starts diminishing over time, and

eventually the boat comes to a standstill, right? So one,

we become aware of the pattern, and two, we start inquiring and saying,

I got it, I just need to stop. I know what this pattern is like.

I know the consequences and the benefits that I've

used this patterning from. Ideally, you've done a little bit of that work

with a coach. And then you could say, okay, I'm just going

to stop indulging in that pattern and give yourself

a chance to rewire into

a new entrainment, a new pathway for

you to reconsider what's going on in

your environment. And that, can I consider that

there's another alternative to the pattern that I've indulged in for

a long, long time that has been conflictual

within relationship? So that would be step number 2. Then step number 3 would

be is inquire. Looking

at, hey, am I coming from a place of

compensation? You ask a lot of open-ended questions— who, what, when, how, and why, right?

Am I coming from a place of compensation? Am I really

trying to protect myself? On whose behalf am

I trying to protect myself? The little conditioned parts

of me, or am I truly representing the adult Mike

or the adult Jason in

this relationship? And that's a pretty interesting experience to

really— some people will say, how old do I feel? Is another good

question to experience

for themselves. And then we can get into certain

techniques like dismantling. You want

to— well, I'll be careful with terms here, but dismantling,

meaning breaking up that pattern. Yeah, just to be clear.

And the another, the next step to me is becoming

the witness or the observer with

observing that patterning. So no longer being

a full-blown participant, but the witness or

the observer element within yourself to see it like a movie

on a screen rather than being sucked into the

movie and the screen. You become more I know

this is playing itself out. I'm

witnessing it. I joke with myself and clients that I work with. I'm like,

get your popcorn ready because you're going to have a lot of observations and

witnessing your conditioning wanting to still go

in certain patterns, right? Another phrase I'll use

sometimes is it's like emotional gravity.

There's an inherent gravitational pull

emotionally to go in that old pattern. And at times

it feels uncomfortable, but helping become the witness

or the observer of that old

pattern is giving you the ability to create

space. And we get so absorbed in this character,

the persona, how we act out from those, those,

that personality perspective, that it's really important for us

to create psychological muscle

to create separation from the event, the situation, the

thought, the sensation in the body, the emotion, the

words that maybe Lauren shares with you, the words that Zaina

shares with me, to take them

as objects within our experience and not absorb them

as if it's my identity. And I think that's

a really important process because

until you create that

separation initially, that's synonymous with our earlier part of the conversation. It helps you come

out of that rabbit hole. It helps you come out of that

myopic perspective that gets us all into trouble. It keeps those glasses

on where once you can create separation and become the observer

of your experience, that's affording you

the opportunity to take the glasses

off. Because, you know, the glasses are thoughts, ideas,

limiting beliefs, associations, interpretations of myself, others in

the world under the all pretense. And so by

creating space, it allows me to take the glasses

off. Then we typically will be in our parasympathetic nervous system. We can

start to regulate ourselves, start to relax more

into the present moment, and then we can start

thinking of alternatives. How else? And then once you start asking ourselves

these open-ended questions, you could say, well, how else could I have

understood this situation? What,

from her perspective, is she really trying to share with me in this moment, if

I were to guess? You know, until we do this separation

and observe our phenomena,

we— it's a Answering that question

honestly becomes labor. It's very, very

difficult. And I know that I've done a lot of exercises with myself

and with clients to know that it almost feels like

a ripping. If I, if I could say it that way,

it feels intense and almost like you're

trying to peel off an old t-shirt that's wet. And,

you know, it sticks to the body and you're trying to take it, like, but

once you take it off, it's like, whoa, like the

world changes, your countenance changes, your

eyes change. You know, there's a lot, a lot

that happens. And then you can say, how do we solve this

problem? You're no longer under the influence of your glasses

now. And that observer phenomena allows you to do that.

I think in a way that's empowering, graceful.

And the last thing I'll say is, once you've had a taste

of it, and you've had a couple of experiences with

doing that, it's kind of like you can't undo what has

been done. Yeah, you know, you can't undo that

visceral experience. So then you say, ah, now I know what it's like

in the body to experience taking the shirt

off that's been stuck to me. Or taking the

glasses off and how I can actually solve the conflict with my partner in

a way that's

meaningful, fulfilling, brings about deeper connectivity

because you've removed all the things that created or facilitated

disconnection, so to speak. So the only thing that's left is

your essence, her essence. And now you can connect at

that level and then trying to troubleshoot who's going to pick up the

kid on Tuesdays, just like you did,

it makes it comical. Like, you kind of laugh. Okay, well, who's going to do

it? How do you want to do it? Okay, cool. I'll pick them up. No

problem. Not to suggest that everything goes away that quickly, but

just to piggyback on the idea that the ability

to problem solve the dynamics or resolve

or reconcile becomes so much easier and

leads and facilitates to more

connection. Man, as you were sharing that, a few things

came up, one of which is I think you use the word like labor. Like,

it is in my experience, and I've got more

compassion for myself, for Lauren, for us in relationship,

for clients, the more that I learn about this and just realize

I have 39 years of conditioning right? And then I

have my whole relationship dynamic, and we've fallen into

our own patterns, and she's got her whole life. And so just

to really anchor in, like, how much of a process

and that ripping of this can be. And you used a few

times, like, assumptions, interpretations, and limiting beliefs. And I

want to define some of those terms, which in my training with you,

like, you speak about 4 main energy blocks. So I want to define

that. But one, one story, real brief, that comes up

is I remember even after having that, like, even after

having this knowledge, it can still be really hard

for me personally. And I remember we were in the kitchen,

uh, I think Luca must have been like

1, and, uh, I was on my phone doing something. I don't know, it was

work, it was something. Let's just say it was something important. And Lauren was

doing the dishes and Luca wanted to get my attention, but I was absorbed in

the phone and I didn't even realize that he was there going,

Papa, Papa. It really— that's one of the things that really triggers Lauren. And I

know it also stems from not just like her values, but

also what she experienced growing up and her experience of that. But it brought up

in her whether it was I was rejecting him, um,

but she said like— and I don't even recall the tone of which it was

in, but I remember some of the effect

of like, um, he's trying to get his— you're not paying attention. That was it,

like, you're not paying attention. And it was so wild

because I remember her words, and then I still

viscerally remember immediately, immediately what I made it mean. And it

was, it was as if she literally said, you're a

bad father. That's how it was experienced to me, and that's

what I internalized. And then I went through my own

downward spiral. I remember like a day or something like that, and I was withdrawn,

I was quiet, I was beating myself up, and

then projecting onto her. So I was in my— I was lost in the

sauce, right? And she had no way, by no way, shape, or form— we had

the discussion after, she's like, you're a fantastic father. And I explained to her

like how I experienced that and what I was making

it mean. And I want to use that as an example to tee up

the energy blocks and to have you define those and how those show

up in relationship. Yeah,

thanks, Mike. So there are the—

this notion of a gremlin, they call it a gremlin, or you can call

it a false core, a false belief, which we refer

to as for the Type 2 is I am worthless, and for the Type

1, I am imperfect. So it's a

belief system and core beliefs and vows that you've

taken on about self, others, and

the world. Associations are

simply associating current-day events

through your historical experiences. And

that could be, in some regards,

similar to what you were giving voice

to. Although interpretations is another one, which is really judgments

of self and others that you were taught as a youngster.

So you're interpreting it through those filters of judgments and ideas of what's

right and what's wrong. And then limiting

beliefs are those

lesser, stingy, but still energetic beliefs and

ideas. They're concepts that

you— or sometimes people will call them— I'll even go out on a limb here

and say identities. They

are ideas that you believe about yourself that

may not raise as intense as the level of I

am imperfect, but they are associated with, in many ways,

the voice in the head of I could have done

this better. This is not fair. People who

do this are not as good as people who do that. Those tend

to be examples of limiting beliefs. So All

of those, to simply say, is there

are innate patterns of

thinking, sensing, perceiving, and

fee— and emoting that really speak

to the different categories of our psyche, if

you will, that have an

energetic signature to them. And then

that energy feels very sticky or gooey, although it feels

normal and comfortable,

right? There's sometimes a heaviness

about it. So, you know, those to me is all of

that, the sum of all of those different

ideas, beliefs, associations. I even, I get the sense

of even like a heaviness even listing them. I mean, it feels like a laundry

list, for crying out loud, right? Yeah. Then you take

it where I have this tension in the body, I have this

physical left knee pain, or you get

into emotions. It's like I have this sense of anger. There are times

that I could flip a switch and have absolute rage and want to just punch

someone in the face. You know, all of those

are just the totality

of our, of our energetic signature,

our psychological fingerprint that we're walking

around with consciously and unconsciously about how we're

trying to navigate life. And so it can

be quite, quite tricky. And that's why,

you know, appreciating the totality of all

of those dynamics and influencing factors

is important. Again, going back to that quote, you can't let go of something unless

you know what it is, right? So it's

important to appreciate where these different categories

can help support that level of awareness so that you

could see the different aspects of my

orange-tinted glasses and what has contributed to the, the thickness

of them. So it's then subsequent to that is inviting clients to go on

a journey to say, If I were to list the

top 25 interpretations that I have about myself

that I project onto my partner in the

world, what would those be? How

does my, there's something wrong with me and I am

imperfect, you know, how is that really shaping and

driving some of the things that I'm very passionate about? Because the

sneaky thing with persona personality

types is that you can have supposed

strengths and liabilities or weaknesses. But

if you're not careful, both the positive

and the negative could be serving as

compensation patterns. And, you know, you start chasing after the positive and trying

to reduce the negative. But I've seen a lot and worked with

a lot of people that that

just entrenches their ideas, their

conditioned patterns even further, which is

another topic unto itself. But those are things

to consider, that it's not always just about

chasing after positivity and I need to be

positive. Especially when the positive is being sought

for the— to cover and overlook the idea that

I'm imperfect. So, man, that's so helpful. And I actually

love that exercise of listing out, you know, what

are the top— like, if you're listening to this right now, which obviously you are

if you're here, but listing out the top

25 interpretations, like, take a list, go, go to town. What are the

top 20, 20 to 25 assumptions that you're making? What are

your top limiting beliefs? And then bringing those in to have that even in partnership,

I think is invaluable because then as something comes up

and what also like to help the relationship, to

help myself, to help Lauren help herself if I can, to help both

of us. And there's also, I think, a big piece of

this around— you and I were talking about this when you were out

here, but like, I think this is also why it's really important to have a

skill and a practice of being able to

regulate ourselves. Right? Because it can be when we're in it and

two people are, say, age

regressing or stuck in a pattern. I think you— and I think, and correct

me if I'm wrong, but you were even talking like if both people are in

it, both people are completely overly identified with

their belief, one's I'm imperfect or one's I'm powerless or what, and they're bringing

both of that and they're blaming and they're shaming

and it's just, it's almost

impossible to navigate through that unless

maybe the charge goes down, or maybe we can view it from a

wider vantage point. Am I off on that, or is that right when I was—

when we were having that convo? Yeah, I mean, for me, absolutely.

Uh, it speaks to the earlier conversation we had

that when, uh, both are stuck in their

conditioning, yeah, uh, we, we cannot relate. We

can't connect. Yeah, we're, you know, uh, we're at

a fundamental disconnection because the only thing that

I hear, see, interpret is through the— through my lens, my

orange glasses. So it's better to figure out, okay, well,

well, what works for me in

stress moments like that? And I would encourage

clients to consider those questions in

between your triggers. Like, if that were to happen, like, use it as part

of the debrief with your partner. Can

we have an agreement that if both

are charged, we will do something? Now, you

could say, you raise, you could be as symbolic as take a

literal, not symbolic, but a literal step back. So

a step backwards is an external cue to say, I

can't verbalize, I'm so stuck, but I can take a step back.

And that's a cue to you that says, I need

some space. Now, for others, you

could say, like, it's basketball season, right? So take a timeout. Like, you could do

that symbol. You could just say, I can't handle this right now.

So can we Can we come back to

this? So have an agreement that says, okay, if both are

in our conditioned response, what is the symbol

or the gesture that we can make to each other that we

are saying, okay, we're going to off limits, we're going to give

each other fundamental space and we're going to agree

to that. So that becomes an agreement. So you just gave yourself an opportunity

to have that conversation with each other. And so when

it happens again, you could say, here, you could

be silent, you could take a step back, you could say, I can't handle this

right now. And then exercise that

agreement. If you have that agreement, and you're violating the agreement, then it

fosters that conversation, which is, hey, we had an agreement. It's not

like we don't know about this. What can we do to protect that agreement

moving forward? And you can work through that question, right? And

I would say that that's an important step. Now, there's

sometimes— I've shared this with you and Lauren also— that when

I am frustrated about something, before

I hit that tipping point of no return,

I will say to Zaina, can

I off-gas or The other question I asked to her is

really, is if I rip, are you going to be okay? Like, that's kind

of the phrase that I've used. Like, let it rip. Let

it rip. Yeah. If, if I share my

shit in this moment, are you stable

in your— are you regulated that you can handle it and not take

a personal attack? Because so we already have done a lot of that inner work

to know what our agreements are. And so she's like,

yep, bring it on, you know, and I

will rip. And she's holding space for me in that traditional sense of how we

use that phrase. And so you can

use whatever code you want. Can you hold space for me right now? Because it's

not going to be pretty. Yes, I can. Okay, cool. Then

I'm holding space. I have no judgment. I have no opinion. I'm not going to

defend myself. I'm not going to defend you. I'm just going to

allow you to do whatever it is that you need to

do. And then at the end, we have a phrase of,

are you complete? That's what Zaina could say to me. That's the permission

that we've— agreement that we have. So she says, okay, it's

a long pause. Is there anything else that you need, or do you

feel complete? Then I'll say, yeah, I got more. Here it comes.

Or no, I feel complete. And by that time, you know, it's

like anger, right? You feel the onset of the Hulk in you coming

out. You experience the Hulk, but at some point, the

green dude turns white again, right? In the old story of

he goes back to his normal pre-anger phase,

right? So by off-gassing, I start to calm down. I start to regulate. She's

so sure when she says, do you feel complete?

I'm like, Yeah, I've ripped my shirt, my

jeans. They're shrinking on me now. So I feel like I'm coming back

to myself. And then we debrief the conversation. She's like, I'm curious,

what was that all about? So we don't just part

ways. We— yeah, to the degree that we can. There's kids around and it's

not always ideal. But at some point,

we earmark that and say, can we debrief what was really going

on for you? And et cetera. And now I'm

able to— we're both to have the glasses off. And now we can get back

to that conversation. And I can

take responsibility for that. So the key is asking her, can

she hold space? If she says, no, I can't, and she's done this, I'm

not in the space to hold space for you. Yeah. Then I would say,

okay, cool. Then I'm going about my business. I'm going to

go for a walk. I'm gonna go fucking punch

a pillow. I'm going to go do something, to go work out. I'm going to

do a couple of sprints, or I'm just going to go sit and meditate. It

could be whatever works for the individual. But it's—

she's giving voice that I'm not in a space to hold space for

you. And then I go do what I can to self-regulate myself as best as

I can. And then when I feel like— I feel to my own question,

am I complete? And I say yes. Then I go back to her and I

say, hey, I feel complete. Do you feel complete yet

or not? If she says yes, then it's an opportunity. Then we

would debrief. She's like, no. Like, okay. And then at that

point, I'm offering her, do you want me to hold space for you or

do you want to still self-regulate all on your own? And she's

done both, right? No, I need space. Like, LMAO, leave

me alone. Like, all right, cool. But I don't take offense to it. Like, I

understand that's where she's at in her process. So hopefully that

is a tangible example for people to consider.

Yeah, that, that's super helpful. And just one more thing though on that,

Jay. So obviously you, you and Zayna both done a lot of

work individually and together and you know, you guys

have, have a lot of reps in this. For someone that's just tipping their, dipping

their toes in wanting to practice this, right?

Like, one of the things that was coming up when you were sharing

is— so imagine, um, say I come home and I do the same

thing with Lauren, right? Like, but— or she does it

with me, we can pick it either order— but the

venting or the let it rip is actually directed

at them. Like, you fucked up. Like, whatever. Like, really, I

don't know if we use whatever it is, but you're letting it rip and it's

directed at them. They say they can hold it, and then

real time, you know, stuff's coming up. So if

while they're holding, they no longer have the capacity

to hold, what would you do then? Or is that just discussed in the jury

bureau? And that point, just pause, like, then we're back in

it, pause. But when, when someone's just dipping their toes

into this, um, and they're struggling with that, what would you offer

to them? Um, so I think agreements— and I know that I've said this a

lot— is really important. Yeah. And I think and

feel like it's through the journey of figuring out

what agreements mean for each other. So

I always try to say, if to reduce

assumptions and ideas, take it a level up and

say Hey, how do we think about this idea Jason's sharing with Mike

around agreements? For us, does that

make sense? How are we doing with agreement? Do we even have them? Yes or

no? And if we do have them, are they truly an anchor for how we

function and interact with each other? You just get very curious and ask a lot

of questions. Then you can get into the weeds, right? That's getting into

the weeds. So That would be is as you're

noticing the attack feels too personal, intense, and

you feel triggered, the reality is they may come back

and say, you're a real pain in the ass. You're a bastard for blaming me

for that. Now they're sucked into the story, right?

Yeah. But rather than hiding from that, what I would encourage people to say

is, oh, great. It was an opportunity to say

I was present. What was it that sucked me

into this conversation that I couldn't maintain my

presence and debrief and have a conversation about that?

And so maybe, hey, listen, I know we're

both trying to put one foot in front of the other and start this as

a process. But for me right now, where I'm at in

my capacity, if you rip, you can't give me— I can't

give you full discretion yet. I might have to

give you 50%, and I will tell you when I'm

at my limit. And you just

negotiate that, and you just keep on tweaking it

over time with all of these conflicts that you might have. And you keep

tweaking and fine-tuning and fine-tuning. It's kind of like

that instrument, right? You, you, you're so sensitive to the keys

on the piano playing just right.. But

in the beginning, someone who doesn't have an acoustic ear is going to be like,

I guess that sounds fine. But then you play

it in the concert, you're like, oh no, no. Now that I hear it in

this kind of concert hall versus this

hall, et cetera, we need to adjust the keys. And so I

just think is, can you approach this from a

curious learner's heart and mind? Can I be curious about life?

And just always ask those open-ended questions of who, what, when, how, why.

Isn't that interesting? What did you feel in the body? Rather than

how do you think and feel like in the sense of like a

lot of overt thinking, because a lot of people will get stuck in their head.

But what did you experience in the body? So if my partner can

only have a threshold of 50%, say, what were you

feeling that really tipped you over in the body? Like, what were

you really sensing? Where did that come from? And Zayna would

probably say, well, my dad was really harsh on me, more than— the

story she has is more than her other sisters, and

therefore he was intense and blah, blah, blah. And, you know,

we've had that conversation before. So that's where I

would start. Start somewhere like, what do agreements look like?

Can we have agreements? How much should we invest in agreements? Can we

test this out? What would it look like for us? And let's give it a

shot. Not with the idea that us as Type Ones would say, we got to

nail this perfect on step one. You know,

that kind of thing. It is an

evolution and a journey. You know, Zane and I this June will

be together now, interestingly enough, 6 years. And

so, yes, we both had done a lot of work. We've both learned a tremendous

amount from the mistakes that the supposed mistakes, I'll say

it that way, that, that we made.

So we came packaged a little

different than our first

respective relationships. But that just helped us navigate all of

this space. And we, we've been fine-tuning it over

and over with subtleties throughout the

whole 6 years. So if you think it's like we're going to sprint, get it

over with and move on to the next thing, you

know, good luck. I don't find that to be the case. Now, what I would

say, though, is like anything else, right? When you go to the gym, you have

muscle memory. It'd be like asking

you with kettlebells, you know, you're a world-class

expert at it. So inherently, you've so entrained

yourself that your level of functionality with it by just walking

in the gym for the first time in even a couple of months, it's like

old hat, you know, it's like a bicycle ride, you know, you just don't

fundamentally forget it. So can I say that there are benefits like that

in the journey? Absolutely. Do what I

get upset about within myself about our relationship,

does it happen at times? Sure. But it's a hell

of a lot less frequent and less intense, and

we stay stuck in that space

a lot less. So those— just to throw the caveat

out there— that's a criteria that if you want to use like some

kind of objective, subjective, quantitative, qualitative data,

you could say, hey, I used to get triggered with my partner

about X. What's the frequency? Does it still happen at the same rate of

frequency? Yes, no. And you can ask each other this. When I

do get triggered, is it the same level of intensity? And the

third one is, is, does it— am I in that trigger

for hours, minutes, seconds, days? Like I used to be in

it for days. Now I'm in it for hours. Okay. So you can

use those three subjective criteria as a

way to assess, am I— how am I learning within

this journey? Of applying these kinds of techniques, if you will. You know, Jay,

I'm curious, is there ever a shadow side to agreements, or

does that even pertain to what we're talking about?

Yeah, good question, Mike. So the shadow side

of it is we've talked earlier today about functional and

dysfunctional elements of codependency. So for me, the

functional elements of agreements build dependency upon each other

to live in a world and in our environment and execute and

deal with life. The dysfunctional elements

of codependency, as through the lens of agreements, could mean is that

I've put my, my eggs

in the basket of this agreement, meaning

my own psychological peace, my

happiness, are now externalized onto and projected

onto these agreements. And then therefore my peace is only because we

have agreements in place, not because I have peace

within myself that these agreements are a reflection of that

already existing inner peace that I have, so that

if they become— if there's a

partial violation or a full violation, I don't lose my

serenity over it. It leads to a crucial conversation for sure, but I'm

not going to lose my inner peace over that. So I think that

is an element that people can watch out

for with, with making these

types of agreements. Um, yeah, and I— those are the important parts I

would say for now that people watch

out for with agreements. You know,

lulling yourself into psychological safety just because you have

an agreement. The other aspect, um, you know, when we

think about agreements and the words that we're

using I'm 54, Saina is 49. So I

have 54 years of

cumulative life experience that I project

consciously and even unconsciously onto

these agreements. We might be using the same word, we could say connection, as you

use the word before connection. Well, what does that mean for you? Well,

I have 54 years of a unique

fingerprint that says connection is this. Zaina

would say connection is this to me. So

even within agreements, sometimes we got to get into the nitty-gritty of

what do these terms mean for you and for me? Because if we

just say, hey, we want to have an agreement that we want to

always have connection, or whatever you fill in the blank,

that's 54 years of

loaded terminology, right? So it can be shallow in the sense

of not digging deep enough to understand the

totality of what I'm really meaning, thinking, and feeling and

experiencing in my conditioning that is being imposed upon

just one word. So that's just another thing to consider with

agreements as well. Yeah, and the weight that we're putting

on aspects of it and what we make it mean. Yeah, that's

fascinating, bro. Yeah, this has been so helpful. I've really

appreciated the depth the breadth and also the

practicality of the tools, and also to assess and check in. The other thing

that I really loved, just as a quick reflection, is

how much you went into agreements. So last week, or well,

now this week, but I released a whole show on

covert contracts. So just unspoken agreements. So this is

like such a beautiful— and then taking everything that

you went into and we went into today, and anybody who listened to last week's

episode, this will even— it was just take it to a whole new level. So

I just really loved where we explored

today. Um, as we wrap up, brother, what would you say, what would you love

to, to leave people with? You know, I'm certainly going to leave in the, in

the show notes the Inner Compass 9 assessment. I've talked about it many times

in the show. It's step one for the work

that I do. To understand and uncover and provide a language to a

lot of these patterns. But to leave people today, is there anything you want

to— like a take-home point or anything you want to reinforce as we

wrap today, my man? You know, there's

a— there's a quote that I really love. Feel free to

adapt, adopt, or abandon this one, but

it coincides with the conditioning and the persona and the masks

that we wear. We've adopted that the inner

compass and the Enneagram assessment helps us highlight those masks that we've been wearing

and how we're compensating, right?

But ultimately, the phrase goes like this:

we cannot become that which we already

are, and therefore we cannot be that

which we're not. So if people can just consider that

in light of our conversation and about the

masks that I wear. Who

am I? What am I? And that to

me would be a question worth considering.

I love it, man. Thank you so much. This has been super fun. Can't

wait to have Uncle Jay back in town. Maybe

there's another set of Matchbox Scars. But really, man,

just love, love, love, love getting to have you here and also drop in with

you. So appreciate you so much, man. Thank you again. Yeah, brother.

Hugs and kisses. Uh, send my love to the family. I will. I will. Peace.