1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,080 Matt Edmundson: Hello and welcome to the eCommerce Podcast. 2 00:00:04,084 --> 00:00:05,694 With me, your host, Matt Edmundson. 3 00:00:05,704 --> 00:00:10,434 Now this is a show all about helping you deliver eCommerce wow. 4 00:00:10,434 --> 00:00:10,974 Yes it is. 5 00:00:10,974 --> 00:00:16,275 And to help us do just that, today I'm chatting with Nikki Lindgreen from 6 00:00:16,304 --> 00:00:18,864 Pen, Pennock, I almost said Pencock. 7 00:00:18,895 --> 00:00:20,194 I don't know why, but it's Pennock. 8 00:00:20,565 --> 00:00:22,405 About, we're going to be talking about video. 9 00:00:22,405 --> 00:00:23,645 We're going to be talking about hooks. 10 00:00:23,645 --> 00:00:26,175 We're going to be talking about how to do all of that in eCommerce. 11 00:00:26,750 --> 00:00:28,990 And we're going to have some fun doing it as well. 12 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:33,610 Now, before I get too carried away, let me just welcome you. 13 00:00:33,610 --> 00:00:37,490 If this is your first time to the eCommerce Podcast, a very warm welcome 14 00:00:37,490 --> 00:00:38,790 to you, wherever you are in the world. 15 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:41,780 It's always great when new people join us. 16 00:00:41,780 --> 00:00:42,084 I'm Matt Edmundson. 17 00:00:42,135 --> 00:00:44,665 on this fabulous journey of eCommerce. 18 00:00:44,665 --> 00:00:46,035 So it's great to have you here. 19 00:00:46,375 --> 00:00:47,255 Hope you enjoy it. 20 00:00:47,255 --> 00:00:49,874 Make sure you like and subscribe and do all of that good stuff. 21 00:00:49,874 --> 00:00:53,085 And of course you can head over to the website, eCommercePodcast. 22 00:00:54,205 --> 00:00:56,485 net and sign up to the newsletter. 23 00:00:56,525 --> 00:00:57,544 And all that happens is. 24 00:00:57,755 --> 00:01:00,775 We just send you the notes, the links, the transcriptions, all that sort of stuff. 25 00:01:00,985 --> 00:01:03,865 No, actually not the transcriptions, the notes, the show notes and the links. 26 00:01:03,865 --> 00:01:07,685 They come to you automatically straight to your inbox by email. 27 00:01:07,745 --> 00:01:10,745 So then you never miss anything from the show, which is a beautiful thing, right? 28 00:01:10,755 --> 00:01:12,304 So make sure you do that. 29 00:01:12,305 --> 00:01:12,774 Check it out. 30 00:01:12,775 --> 00:01:14,624 ecommercepodcast. 31 00:01:14,625 --> 00:01:15,275 net. 32 00:01:15,315 --> 00:01:22,175 Now let's talk about Nikki, the savvy marketer turned agency founder. 33 00:01:22,615 --> 00:01:26,835 Who's all about turning challenges into triumphs. 34 00:01:26,895 --> 00:01:31,645 After experiencing the hurdles of an in house marketing team first hand, 35 00:01:31,645 --> 00:01:36,744 she created Pennock, the dream agency she wished for back in the day. 36 00:01:36,985 --> 00:01:37,715 Love that. 37 00:01:37,914 --> 00:01:43,625 Now she's the go to guru for seven figure beauty and lifestyle brands, 38 00:01:43,625 --> 00:01:47,409 driving their growth with her killer media buying and advertising. 39 00:01:47,410 --> 00:01:49,200 And SEO Wizardry. 40 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:51,680 Nikki, welcome to the show, you've got a lot to live up to. 41 00:01:53,580 --> 00:01:55,570 Nikki Lindgreen: Impressive lead in there. 42 00:01:55,580 --> 00:01:56,090 Thank you, Matt. 43 00:01:56,620 --> 00:01:59,529 Matt Edmundson: It's great to have you, I'm really curious what SEO Wizardry 44 00:01:59,529 --> 00:02:00,990 is, so I think we'll get into that. 45 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:04,580 Nikki Lindgreen: Absolutely. 46 00:02:05,370 --> 00:02:08,075 Matt Edmundson: Now, before we hit the record button Nikki, you 47 00:02:08,075 --> 00:02:12,965 were telling me how you're based in the San Francisco Bay area. 48 00:02:13,025 --> 00:02:16,544 You're as far away from England as you can get before I start hitting, like 49 00:02:16,554 --> 00:02:18,304 Japan and places like that really. 50 00:02:18,664 --> 00:02:19,965 But yeah, it's great to have you. 51 00:02:20,015 --> 00:02:22,865 Great that you're with us all the way from San Francisco. 52 00:02:22,865 --> 00:02:26,495 It's definitely looking a lot brighter and sunnier where you are based on the video. 53 00:02:27,850 --> 00:02:30,160 Nikki Lindgreen: Yes it's shaven up to be a good morning. 54 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:32,260 So I appreciate you having me on today. 55 00:02:32,685 --> 00:02:33,195 Matt Edmundson: No problem. 56 00:02:33,225 --> 00:02:34,065 It's great to have you here. 57 00:02:34,065 --> 00:02:37,949 So tell me about the agency tell me about what you guys do. 58 00:02:37,950 --> 00:02:39,510 Do what makes you different? 59 00:02:39,820 --> 00:02:40,780 Really curious. 60 00:02:40,810 --> 00:02:44,760 'cause San Francisco in my head, is a wash with agency. 61 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:46,410 So how do you do it different? 62 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:53,460 Nikki Lindgreen: Yeah, so we started in 2020 to be a boutique, female 63 00:02:53,460 --> 00:02:56,510 led and female employed agency. 64 00:02:57,350 --> 00:03:01,950 We did not intend to be fully decentralized, but things in the macro 65 00:03:01,950 --> 00:03:05,730 environment allowed us to really find talent throughout the United States. 66 00:03:06,100 --> 00:03:09,830 And so while we're a really agile and small team, the employees 67 00:03:09,830 --> 00:03:12,500 just work from their home offices, which is where I am today. 68 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:14,470 So that's Ben RMO. 69 00:03:14,510 --> 00:03:18,400 And then in terms of the types of brands we're helping, as you 70 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:22,800 alluded to, it's earlier stage businesses in beauty and lifestyle. 71 00:03:22,810 --> 00:03:27,090 So we're talking about a handful of skincare brands, fragrance brands 72 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:29,650 fashion, and a few home decor. 73 00:03:29,910 --> 00:03:33,710 So really anything that's needing some love and attention to 74 00:03:33,710 --> 00:03:35,530 grow their eCommerce business. 75 00:03:35,570 --> 00:03:37,790 I think all of our brands are on Shopify. 76 00:03:38,130 --> 00:03:41,510 And so that's really what we're doing first and foremost in the paid lane 77 00:03:41,510 --> 00:03:43,400 where we are pretty channel agnostic. 78 00:03:43,430 --> 00:03:47,074 We'll help brands with any and every paid product. 79 00:03:47,495 --> 00:03:53,285 Program they need to run including Spotify ads and out of home things of that sort 80 00:03:53,285 --> 00:03:55,235 in addition to just the basic digital. 81 00:03:55,475 --> 00:03:58,735 And then we do SEO, we do our wizardry which I think is all 82 00:03:58,735 --> 00:04:01,860 changing with generative optimization. 83 00:04:02,070 --> 00:04:04,260 So we'll see how that all plays in. 84 00:04:04,260 --> 00:04:06,270 But we found some formulas that really helped. 85 00:04:06,415 --> 00:04:10,095 Our brands that said, like our brands haven't done SEO before. 86 00:04:10,095 --> 00:04:14,515 So the first quarter is always like fantastic because they've never touched 87 00:04:14,650 --> 00:04:18,880 So we do a lot of on page optimizations and schema markup optimizations and 88 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:21,340 things about their evergreen content. 89 00:04:21,350 --> 00:04:24,760 We're not really building out new blog posts and content to 90 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:25,980 serve the purpose of their lane. 91 00:04:25,980 --> 00:04:29,630 We're trying to get their long term content to rank better. 92 00:04:29,630 --> 00:04:32,970 These are usually category landing pages and they're hero SKUs that they 93 00:04:32,970 --> 00:04:35,000 don't intend to ever go out of stock in. 94 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:39,160 Things like that are where my team and I would focus our efforts in SEO. 95 00:04:40,030 --> 00:04:40,330 Matt Edmundson: Wow. 96 00:04:40,335 --> 00:04:41,415 There's a lot there already. 97 00:04:41,605 --> 00:04:42,740 I'm curious about this. 98 00:04:42,740 --> 00:04:47,215 Evergreen content, you don't focus on blog posts, which I find fascinating. 99 00:04:47,405 --> 00:04:50,445 You focus on category pages. 100 00:04:50,805 --> 00:04:54,275 Now for, this is really interesting, Nikki, if you don't mind, I'm going 101 00:04:54,275 --> 00:04:55,645 to ask you a few questions about this. 102 00:04:55,685 --> 00:04:56,845 Dig into this straight. 103 00:04:56,845 --> 00:04:58,045 Let's just get straight into it. 104 00:04:58,085 --> 00:04:58,415 Why not? 105 00:04:58,835 --> 00:05:05,815 I'm curious simply because 99 times out of 100, when I go to an 106 00:05:05,815 --> 00:05:10,955 eCommerce website, their category page is literally just like a default 107 00:05:10,975 --> 00:05:12,815 amalgamation of various products. 108 00:05:12,825 --> 00:05:14,735 It's like it's an automation type thing. 109 00:05:15,365 --> 00:05:19,820 I'm assuming then, you take that sort of standard category page And 110 00:05:19,840 --> 00:05:21,760 execute your wizardry upon that. 111 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:23,840 I'm curious what sort of things you would do. 112 00:05:25,015 --> 00:05:28,985 Nikki Lindgreen: Yeah, so for, we'll use a jewelry brand as an example. 113 00:05:29,215 --> 00:05:33,505 And so they'll have a category page for either a collection, so maybe it's 114 00:05:33,505 --> 00:05:36,425 like the design is a coil jewelry. 115 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:39,250 So we would go in and we would look at that collection landing 116 00:05:39,250 --> 00:05:43,460 page and figure out do people even know what coil jewelry is? 117 00:05:43,460 --> 00:05:48,410 Should we look at the other variations of coil that might be more commonly used? 118 00:05:48,790 --> 00:05:52,370 And we'll add that into the meta fields that still matter. 119 00:05:52,370 --> 00:05:53,730 So mainly the page title. 120 00:05:54,260 --> 00:05:57,020 And to some extent, the meta description, and then we'll go in 121 00:05:57,020 --> 00:06:00,600 and look at like the alt tags for video images and stuff like that. 122 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:03,370 So we're doing those pieces of on page for them. 123 00:06:03,660 --> 00:06:06,740 Similarly, if we're talking about their jewelry collection, and they 124 00:06:06,740 --> 00:06:10,200 have a landing page for rings, we'll do the same thing with rings. 125 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:12,560 Do people care about that they're 18 karat gold? 126 00:06:12,570 --> 00:06:13,275 Do they care about size? 127 00:06:13,275 --> 00:06:14,745 Something else, just gold. 128 00:06:14,985 --> 00:06:17,895 So we'll figure out which makes the most sense for them in terms 129 00:06:17,895 --> 00:06:21,105 of the primary keyword and go in and attack those components. 130 00:06:21,405 --> 00:06:25,305 Because again, these brands usually haven't done SEO for at least a year. 131 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:28,780 If ever we can get moving in the rankings quite quickly. 132 00:06:28,780 --> 00:06:31,635 But as soon as the com competition kind of catches on that we're. 133 00:06:32,215 --> 00:06:36,335 More people are in the space trying to compete than that never ending cycle. 134 00:06:36,345 --> 00:06:40,855 So what we end up doing is roughly every quarter to six months, we're 135 00:06:40,895 --> 00:06:44,875 going to go back and dust off old pages that have maybe peaked and now they're 136 00:06:44,875 --> 00:06:48,545 starting to climb down the mountain because competition has come back in. 137 00:06:49,125 --> 00:06:50,725 So that's usually our system. 138 00:06:51,065 --> 00:06:56,115 We will divert some on page optimizations for backlinks, generative Engine 139 00:06:56,115 --> 00:07:00,345 Optimization is supposed to really change the landscape and importance of backlinks. 140 00:07:00,355 --> 00:07:05,605 So TBD on how long they become or they stay relevant for SEO. 141 00:07:05,605 --> 00:07:09,445 So we've got to keep our finger on the pulse related to that too. 142 00:07:09,905 --> 00:07:14,015 But I was going Fractional kind of CMO a couple of years back for our 143 00:07:14,015 --> 00:07:17,155 wearable pregnancy device that helped people know when women know when 144 00:07:17,155 --> 00:07:19,325 they were about to go into labor. 145 00:07:19,755 --> 00:07:24,205 And what we found back then is working with a bunch of content creators 146 00:07:24,205 --> 00:07:28,395 to produce articles versus working with nurses and practitioners in the 147 00:07:28,395 --> 00:07:32,105 industry, night and day different in terms of like how those stacked up 148 00:07:32,105 --> 00:07:34,275 for content for many obvious reasons. 149 00:07:34,585 --> 00:07:37,925 And so that's when we made an intentional pivot to say we can't be an outside 150 00:07:37,925 --> 00:07:38,895 agency that just doesn't exist. 151 00:07:39,185 --> 00:07:40,565 Makes blog posts for you. 152 00:07:40,575 --> 00:07:43,455 It's not a good sure we can lean on AI at this point, but it's not 153 00:07:43,455 --> 00:07:47,295 a good use for us, the outsiders, to pretend we're subject matter 154 00:07:47,295 --> 00:07:48,795 experts in what our clients do. 155 00:07:49,220 --> 00:07:49,580 Matt Edmundson: right. 156 00:07:50,820 --> 00:07:56,810 So the Category pages, I just want to draw out some of the terminology 157 00:07:56,820 --> 00:08:01,435 you use phrases like meta tags that matter which I find quite fascinating. 158 00:08:01,435 --> 00:08:05,045 For those that are listening to the show, maybe new to eCommerce, have 159 00:08:05,045 --> 00:08:06,345 no idea what you're talking about. 160 00:08:06,345 --> 00:08:07,255 Meta tags that matter. 161 00:08:07,255 --> 00:08:08,475 Is that something to do with Facebook? 162 00:08:08,505 --> 00:08:11,365 You, could you just explain what they are for the three people 163 00:08:11,365 --> 00:08:12,185 listening that might not know? 164 00:08:13,445 --> 00:08:14,405 Nikki Lindgreen: Yes, absolutely. 165 00:08:14,655 --> 00:08:18,245 On any webpage, you have some tags of your page. 166 00:08:18,245 --> 00:08:21,185 You have your page title, which is a, I think they're technically 167 00:08:21,185 --> 00:08:22,195 called meta tags, right? 168 00:08:22,195 --> 00:08:23,175 Am I just making that up? 169 00:08:23,175 --> 00:08:23,435 Is it too 170 00:08:23,490 --> 00:08:24,550 Matt Edmundson: No, that's exactly what they're called. 171 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:25,740 Nikki Lindgreen: Okay, I'm good. 172 00:08:25,740 --> 00:08:28,930 I'm like, wait, did I just lose, did I just lose any credibility here? 173 00:08:29,340 --> 00:08:33,620 So yeah, the on page or the page title is what really shows up like if you're 174 00:08:33,620 --> 00:08:38,440 in a web experience and you have multiple tabs open, when you hover over each tab, 175 00:08:38,450 --> 00:08:41,270 whatever text appears is your page title. 176 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:45,950 So that's the, still the most important for SEO for on page. 177 00:08:45,950 --> 00:08:49,060 So we want to make sure that looks really good and is filled with 178 00:08:49,060 --> 00:08:50,079 as many keywords as possible. 179 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:52,290 Make sense to the human reader, not the bot. 180 00:08:52,740 --> 00:08:54,060 So that would be the first one. 181 00:08:54,070 --> 00:08:57,940 There's another tag in there called Meta Description Tag, which is 182 00:08:57,940 --> 00:09:01,990 important to look at because it's like the click babiness, in a good 183 00:09:01,990 --> 00:09:04,530 sense, of your results on Google. 184 00:09:04,770 --> 00:09:08,710 So while it's not going to, if you fill keywords, it's not going to improve 185 00:09:08,710 --> 00:09:13,085 your ranking, it's at least going to be like, what, Hook someone like an email 186 00:09:13,085 --> 00:09:15,215 subject line to actually click through. 187 00:09:15,525 --> 00:09:17,655 And then anything else, like meta keywords. 188 00:09:17,655 --> 00:09:20,355 I think I had a client come to me recently and ask like, why we 189 00:09:20,355 --> 00:09:21,675 weren't putting in meta keywords. 190 00:09:21,675 --> 00:09:23,920 I'm like, oh sweetie, that's 15 years ago. 191 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:24,465 Like we just don't. 192 00:09:24,875 --> 00:09:27,614 We don't do that anymore. 193 00:09:27,660 --> 00:09:27,890 Matt Edmundson: yeah. 194 00:09:28,410 --> 00:09:30,570 That's so 2010, isn't it, really? 195 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:31,120 Keywords. 196 00:09:31,805 --> 00:09:35,055 Nikki Lindgreen: So if anyone's filling in your meta keywords field, it's a 197 00:09:35,345 --> 00:09:40,215 total waste of time to spend any money to have them populate that field. 198 00:09:40,590 --> 00:09:42,820 Matt Edmundson: yeah, I remember those days when we would do that. 199 00:09:43,010 --> 00:09:45,590 And I'm actually quite glad they've gone because it took a long time and I 200 00:09:45,680 --> 00:09:48,490 don't know if it yielded any fruit even back then, Nikki, I'm not going to lie. 201 00:09:49,020 --> 00:09:53,200 But so the category page you're setting the meta information and 202 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:58,670 you're optimizing on page content for both keyword and how the customer is 203 00:09:58,670 --> 00:10:00,040 going to interact with that, right? 204 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:01,580 How the viewer is going to interact with that. 205 00:10:01,580 --> 00:10:02,710 So you use coil jewelry. 206 00:10:02,710 --> 00:10:03,670 I have no idea what that is. 207 00:10:03,670 --> 00:10:06,220 So that would def I would definitely need some explanation on that. 208 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:10,190 If I go to Shopify and I just leave it to the default category, what they're 209 00:10:10,190 --> 00:10:12,920 going to do is they're going to show products from that category, aren't 210 00:10:12,930 --> 00:10:15,070 they, or they're going to show maybe some subcategories but you used another 211 00:10:15,070 --> 00:10:18,550 phrase in there about a landing page which leads me to think that you're 212 00:10:18,560 --> 00:10:23,490 probably making the category pages more than just meta title, meta description, a 213 00:10:23,490 --> 00:10:28,210 headline as in Coil Jewelry and then just showing a whole bunch of coil jewelry. 214 00:10:28,350 --> 00:10:30,980 It sounds like you're adding content to that page as well. 215 00:10:30,980 --> 00:10:31,970 Am I understanding that right? 216 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:37,990 Nikki Lindgreen: Possibly, we're really like, when we come in, our brands are so 217 00:10:37,990 --> 00:10:40,510 brand centric that like, it's their baby. 218 00:10:40,510 --> 00:10:44,180 If we're going to say you need content blocks left and right, they're going to be 219 00:10:44,180 --> 00:10:48,070 like, let's break up immediately because that's not what our brand looks like. 220 00:10:48,395 --> 00:10:53,155 So we have to figure out how to play into the aesthetic of this beautiful site 221 00:10:53,155 --> 00:10:55,785 they've developed and their comfort zone. 222 00:10:55,785 --> 00:10:59,305 So when we find ourselves in situations with a coiled jewelry 223 00:10:59,305 --> 00:11:02,045 example where no one and their mother know what that even means. 224 00:11:02,170 --> 00:11:04,040 Let alone, we're gonna go search for it. 225 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:07,280 We would then maybe look, that would be an instance where we would say 226 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:10,980 if we have a flexible block that we can like expose on certain pages, 227 00:11:10,990 --> 00:11:12,390 this would be a page to do it. 228 00:11:12,660 --> 00:11:16,220 We've tried Coil Jewelry, you got 20 visitors to your website. 229 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:20,810 So we need to explain more, because unless you're fine with 20 SEO visitors to this 230 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:22,700 page we're leaving a lot on the table. 231 00:11:22,910 --> 00:11:26,360 And so we'll come to that with data and not just say now we're going to 232 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:30,160 update your template and every single category or collection link landing 233 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:34,140 page will need copy and my team is going to put together some copy in 234 00:11:34,140 --> 00:11:37,930 two days and cross our fingers that you, it resonates with you, right? 235 00:11:39,230 --> 00:11:40,090 Matt Edmundson: that's very good. 236 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:40,810 I like that. 237 00:11:41,170 --> 00:11:44,070 Slight deviation that we talked about SEO, but one of the things that you 238 00:11:44,070 --> 00:11:47,050 mentioned there, which is a beautiful segue to perhaps what we should get 239 00:11:47,050 --> 00:11:50,460 into talking about, Nikki is when you talked about the meta description. 240 00:11:50,510 --> 00:11:54,490 In effect the sort of your meta titling, Google pulled down. 241 00:11:54,490 --> 00:11:58,690 So when you go to Google, you search something, you see the titling, you 242 00:11:58,690 --> 00:12:02,550 see the description and the description now we're told is to be written in 243 00:12:02,550 --> 00:12:06,570 such a way that it makes sense to the viewer or the person doing the 244 00:12:06,570 --> 00:12:08,640 searching in relation to that keyword. 245 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:11,640 And it's going to entice them to click through to your website, right? 246 00:12:11,680 --> 00:12:13,400 The phrase we're now using a lot. 247 00:12:13,575 --> 00:12:15,485 It seems to be is hook. 248 00:12:16,035 --> 00:12:19,035 So let's talk about hooks a little bit. 249 00:12:19,035 --> 00:12:21,215 Cause I know we wanted to get into this on video as well. 250 00:12:21,235 --> 00:12:22,715 What is a good hook? 251 00:12:23,335 --> 00:12:27,195 What do you mean by hook? 252 00:12:27,235 --> 00:12:30,265 Because I've heard lots of different definitions of this and I've 253 00:12:30,265 --> 00:12:31,785 heard lots of different examples. 254 00:12:32,135 --> 00:12:35,582 So let's just clarify terms before we crack on. 255 00:12:35,582 --> 00:12:35,961 Yeah. 256 00:12:36,100 --> 00:12:36,960 Nikki Lindgreen: Yeah, that's fair. 257 00:12:36,970 --> 00:12:39,760 Cause I think we've even moved around in terms of what 258 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:41,130 we're calling them internally. 259 00:12:41,460 --> 00:12:44,970 To me what I'm talking about when I say a hook is like the 260 00:12:44,980 --> 00:12:47,750 content theme of the video. 261 00:12:47,750 --> 00:12:53,990 So in the land of where I am in heavily in beauty and skin care, we usually have 262 00:12:54,000 --> 00:13:01,460 15 different hooks or themes of video content that are like, we know it's 263 00:13:01,460 --> 00:13:06,910 likely going to at leats hit our current Roas or CAC, and we'll pull from those, 264 00:13:06,910 --> 00:13:11,140 especially if a client's been light in those areas, but across the industry 265 00:13:11,140 --> 00:13:15,720 and even those super creative paid media people, there's probably hundreds 266 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:20,650 of different pillars, hooks to pull from, but it's saying we have to code 267 00:13:20,650 --> 00:13:26,040 everything in our system so that we can easily dissect what hook is working or 268 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:30,370 what pillar is working, so it's just our way of really keeping things together. 269 00:13:31,185 --> 00:13:34,885 Organized and narrow so that as we're doing these analysis to see what's 270 00:13:34,885 --> 00:13:40,015 moving the needle client by client, we can really quickly summarize what it is. 271 00:13:41,145 --> 00:13:43,275 So I can give you like a more of an example. 272 00:13:43,285 --> 00:13:46,315 So in beauty, there's a lot of outcome hooks. 273 00:13:46,325 --> 00:13:51,335 They are known as before and after, but Matt hates terminology like before 274 00:13:51,335 --> 00:13:55,175 and after and if your ad is named before and after, there's a higher 275 00:13:55,175 --> 00:14:01,390 likelihood it will get flagged just because you used so we work with some 276 00:14:01,390 --> 00:14:06,410 wrinkle reduction, acne reducing type brands, and for them, the outcome, 277 00:14:06,410 --> 00:14:11,760 like the before and truly the after of using a product works really well. 278 00:14:11,810 --> 00:14:14,870 And so that would be an outcome hook is like, how did this 279 00:14:14,890 --> 00:14:16,940 product or service work for them? 280 00:14:17,210 --> 00:14:21,160 move you forward in your path and journey towards X goal? 281 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:28,000 Matt Edmundson: It's interesting, you talk about how Meta a fan of before and after. 282 00:14:28,355 --> 00:14:31,065 Why is that before we carry on, but I'm curious. 283 00:14:31,065 --> 00:14:32,840 Why would they not like before and after. 284 00:14:33,100 --> 00:14:35,520 Nikki Lindgreen: Yeah, I think there's a little bit of it that 285 00:14:35,550 --> 00:14:37,280 overlaps with a medical leaning. 286 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:40,800 So if you think about like a weight loss, something or other, like seeing 287 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:44,610 an overweight person and a thin person might've just, legally, I think there's 288 00:14:44,610 --> 00:14:47,880 some things that are a little questionable about whether or not they should be 289 00:14:47,890 --> 00:14:49,590 able to advertise on their platform. 290 00:14:49,590 --> 00:14:50,670 So that's probably one thing. 291 00:14:50,730 --> 00:14:55,010 One example and same with seeing a face covered in acne and then a clear face. 292 00:14:55,310 --> 00:14:57,930 They just, they don't like that for those reasons. 293 00:14:58,220 --> 00:15:02,160 And so what we found over the years is even working with our meta reps, 294 00:15:02,730 --> 00:15:06,480 just rename it and it will probably not be live for a long time because 295 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:08,080 they will eventually catch on. 296 00:15:08,390 --> 00:15:11,380 But, something that would be rejected before it ever went live can now 297 00:15:11,390 --> 00:15:13,010 be live for a couple of days. 298 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:16,655 The other ways in which people can, Before and after on meta can go forward is if 299 00:15:16,655 --> 00:15:23,045 you do a compilation whether either a carousel or a video bury the before and 300 00:15:23,045 --> 00:15:27,195 after in the middle of the video So it's harder for them to spot quickly But if the 301 00:15:27,245 --> 00:15:33,845 first asset is super heavy acne second is super clear skin It's like too obvious for 302 00:15:33,845 --> 00:15:36,535 their algorithm to look at and pull down. 303 00:15:36,536 --> 00:15:38,545 Yeah, 304 00:15:38,550 --> 00:15:39,955 Matt Edmundson: it is, this is interesting, isn't it? 305 00:15:39,955 --> 00:15:44,085 Because my initial reaction to this is I get the marketing power, I suppose 306 00:15:44,085 --> 00:15:47,055 of a before and after you see them all the time, in men's magazines. 307 00:15:47,055 --> 00:15:50,355 So I've got a beer belly over here, and now over here I've got a six pack and 308 00:15:50,355 --> 00:15:53,595 it took me four and a half minutes using your system to get from A to B, right? 309 00:15:53,595 --> 00:15:54,225 That kind of thing. 310 00:15:56,135 --> 00:15:57,745 It's never worked for me, Nikki, I'm not going to lie. 311 00:15:58,235 --> 00:16:03,335 But it's intriguing how obviously Facebook and, or Meta is it now, 312 00:16:03,335 --> 00:16:08,085 is and other ad platforms are not very pro these kinds of ads. 313 00:16:08,635 --> 00:16:10,865 Yet here we are still trying to use them. 314 00:16:10,865 --> 00:16:12,855 Like we're trying to gamify the system a little bit. 315 00:16:13,435 --> 00:16:17,075 And are we still using the before and after stuff because it is such 316 00:16:17,075 --> 00:16:19,975 a powerful thing, especially in the beauty industry and skincare industry? 317 00:16:20,505 --> 00:16:21,755 Nikki Lindgreen: 100%. 318 00:16:21,765 --> 00:16:25,525 And I think the power really lies into how heavily Facebook 319 00:16:25,565 --> 00:16:26,865 doesn't want you to use it, right? 320 00:16:26,865 --> 00:16:32,095 If you're a teenage boy and you're suffering with severe acne, the only 321 00:16:32,095 --> 00:16:35,635 thing on your mind when you look in the mirror is how do I get rid of this acne? 322 00:16:35,665 --> 00:16:37,485 So it resonates really well. 323 00:16:37,485 --> 00:16:41,945 It is our top performing product because people who experience 324 00:16:41,945 --> 00:16:44,455 it want get to go away tomorrow. 325 00:16:45,075 --> 00:16:47,515 And I think same with probably the weight loss stuff, right? 326 00:16:47,545 --> 00:16:51,645 If there's a way I can look better soon if, I'm gonna put everything into it. 327 00:16:51,645 --> 00:16:56,155 But I think we're all aging humans, like we know wrinkles probably 328 00:16:56,155 --> 00:16:57,185 are gonna be hard to remove. 329 00:16:57,215 --> 00:17:01,915 So I think like for wrinkle creams and like anything that's anti aging, It's 330 00:17:01,915 --> 00:17:05,835 more acceptable because it's meh, like no one really knows if any of this stuff is 331 00:17:05,835 --> 00:17:09,965 going to work, but if something's going to clear acne, it's something you strike on 332 00:17:09,965 --> 00:17:11,705 a little bit more quickly as a consumer. 333 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:12,530 Matt Edmundson: yeah. 334 00:17:13,030 --> 00:17:13,800 Yeah, I get that. 335 00:17:13,820 --> 00:17:16,900 And I suppose there's the real powerful psychological drivers here, 336 00:17:16,900 --> 00:17:18,320 isn't there, in the before and after. 337 00:17:18,850 --> 00:17:23,170 It's like you're very much in the before identifying with somebody, resonating, 338 00:17:23,170 --> 00:17:24,210 aren't you, with where they're at. 339 00:17:24,250 --> 00:17:27,820 And in the after you're showing them where they can be using your product. 340 00:17:28,420 --> 00:17:32,070 And it's interesting how Facebook are clamping down on this, probably because 341 00:17:32,070 --> 00:17:35,580 marketers have over exaggerated claims as one would have thought over the years. 342 00:17:35,590 --> 00:17:43,075 So how critical is it in the before and after to, what was it Zig Ziglar said 343 00:17:43,395 --> 00:17:46,865 tell the truth attractively I think is such a great phrase, sales is all 344 00:17:46,865 --> 00:17:50,605 about telling the truth attractively yeah I'm curious what your experience 345 00:17:50,615 --> 00:17:53,585 with the before and afters are, do you get many complaints I'm curious. 346 00:17:53,685 --> 00:17:56,645 Nikki Lindgreen: So I think the way the industry's kind of evolved 347 00:17:56,655 --> 00:17:59,465 has found solutions to the issue. 348 00:17:59,515 --> 00:18:03,485 The attractive way right now and the passable way, even in the 349 00:18:03,485 --> 00:18:06,795 algorithm side to do it, is using a lot of creator generated content. 350 00:18:06,805 --> 00:18:10,915 So like, when this particular client, we kept telling them like, Hey, we're 351 00:18:10,935 --> 00:18:13,645 talking to our reps, we're doing everything we've done, we've modeled. 352 00:18:14,175 --> 00:18:18,965 Rearrange the ad so that it is like the most favorable and it's still live for 353 00:18:19,045 --> 00:18:21,015 three days and then it's getting rejected. 354 00:18:21,525 --> 00:18:25,405 So then the next step is who are the creators you're working with right now? 355 00:18:25,435 --> 00:18:29,335 Can we put this in a creator landscape and show one person's 356 00:18:29,335 --> 00:18:33,925 journey rather than us the brand speaking to why we're so awesome? 357 00:18:34,205 --> 00:18:36,805 So I think that is a lot more passable, right? 358 00:18:36,815 --> 00:18:41,205 So most of our assets, when they are in the creator generated lane, do work 359 00:18:41,215 --> 00:18:47,195 out well, but I think, UGC is totally overdone right now, like I think 360 00:18:47,205 --> 00:18:48,975 people are starting to tire of it. 361 00:18:49,545 --> 00:18:53,125 It's still effective, but like that, we're at the bottom of that bell curve now, 362 00:18:53,125 --> 00:18:54,745 so we don't know for how much longer. 363 00:18:55,065 --> 00:19:00,715 The new way people are thinking through user generated anything is education. 364 00:19:00,985 --> 00:19:04,115 And so this is where we could, in this continuing the Acne 365 00:19:04,175 --> 00:19:09,565 brand example, go after creators who have acne, who can speak. 366 00:19:10,135 --> 00:19:15,175 In an educational lens or like more intelligently about maybe the ingredients 367 00:19:15,175 --> 00:19:17,805 and why some brands worked for them. 368 00:19:18,105 --> 00:19:21,225 So I think that's going to be the evolution for brands like this to get 369 00:19:21,225 --> 00:19:25,695 through the outcome hook is really push it in the lane of a creator and hopefully 370 00:19:25,695 --> 00:19:30,725 an educational focused creator, whether that's like an expert in the industry or 371 00:19:30,725 --> 00:19:32,295 a consumer who can speak intelligently. 372 00:19:33,695 --> 00:19:34,595 Matt Edmundson: That's really interesting. 373 00:19:34,595 --> 00:19:36,005 It's an interesting evolution, isn't it? 374 00:19:36,005 --> 00:19:39,975 Because I smiled when you said, we're all getting a bit tired of UGC. 375 00:19:39,975 --> 00:19:42,255 It's again, marketers know how to screw things up, don't they? 376 00:19:42,265 --> 00:19:45,135 They get anybody, maybe they don't even use their products. 377 00:19:45,135 --> 00:19:46,535 This is, we've sent you some free stuff. 378 00:19:46,555 --> 00:19:47,745 Can you just tell us how cool it is? 379 00:19:47,905 --> 00:19:48,205 Sure. 380 00:19:48,205 --> 00:19:49,365 You've sent it to me free. 381 00:19:49,375 --> 00:19:49,875 No problem. 382 00:19:50,315 --> 00:19:52,185 And then we'll use that as an ad. 383 00:19:53,215 --> 00:19:55,605 I find quite a fascinating concept. 384 00:19:58,115 --> 00:20:00,235 And so I can see why we're getting tired of it. 385 00:20:00,245 --> 00:20:05,265 So now what you're saying is actually for UGC, the next evolution, if we're 386 00:20:05,265 --> 00:20:07,695 an eCommerce brand, if you're listening to the show, guys, listen up, if 387 00:20:07,695 --> 00:20:13,285 you're using UGC, To actually take that stage furthering and the people 388 00:20:13,285 --> 00:20:18,045 you get to create the UGC should do it from a more educational viewpoint. 389 00:20:18,055 --> 00:20:21,865 They should talk like they actually know what the product is all about etc. 390 00:20:22,445 --> 00:20:23,575 How do you do that? 391 00:20:23,576 --> 00:20:24,355 Yeah, 392 00:20:25,055 --> 00:20:29,735 Nikki Lindgreen: Yeah, so for some of these brands, I think having like B2B 393 00:20:29,735 --> 00:20:34,835 partners, so an acne brand might work with estheticians or dermatologists 394 00:20:34,855 --> 00:20:39,220 and so trying to find a couple in their corner who would be willing to speak them. 395 00:20:39,270 --> 00:20:42,170 Hard to do in that particular industry, but that would be a really 396 00:20:42,170 --> 00:20:45,890 great example of having someone with authority who is not the brand speak 397 00:20:45,890 --> 00:20:48,210 about the efficacy of the product. 398 00:20:48,510 --> 00:20:53,300 And then I think the other is if they are sort of influential individuals who have 399 00:20:53,300 --> 00:20:57,940 been on the acne to clear skin journey, and ideally with this said product, 400 00:20:58,220 --> 00:21:00,330 that could be another good way to do it. 401 00:21:00,330 --> 00:21:05,994 And so this individual may not be super, educated on the on the topic 402 00:21:05,994 --> 00:21:09,618 But if or whatever, but if the team can prep them on how to speak to 403 00:21:09,618 --> 00:21:14,335 the, why their special sauce works at really clearing acne, I think would 404 00:21:14,345 --> 00:21:16,755 be the win for a brand like that. 405 00:21:16,755 --> 00:21:18,125 Yeah 406 00:21:18,395 --> 00:21:21,405 Matt Edmundson: I'm seeing more and more starting to see more and more, Nikki. 407 00:21:21,405 --> 00:21:25,435 It's probably the right phrase, what I call the Zac Efron effect, right? 408 00:21:25,445 --> 00:21:31,505 So this is where Zac Efron goes to some village in the remotest part 409 00:21:31,505 --> 00:21:35,055 of the world, figures out what they eat and learn something from it, 410 00:21:35,055 --> 00:21:38,365 and his Netflix documentaries and which my wife has thoroughly enjoyed 411 00:21:38,365 --> 00:21:39,495 and I've enjoyed watching as well. 412 00:21:40,015 --> 00:21:46,545 And so what I'm seeing now start to spring up are content creators who maybe suffer 413 00:21:46,545 --> 00:21:50,265 from acne, and they are in effect creating their own mini documentary, aren't they? 414 00:21:50,275 --> 00:21:53,445 They're like, I am going on a journey to figure something out. 415 00:21:53,715 --> 00:21:54,755 I'm going to work this out. 416 00:21:54,965 --> 00:22:00,190 And then the brand, With the cream comes in almost like Obi-Wan Kenobi 417 00:22:00,220 --> 00:22:02,850 to use the story brand analogy. 418 00:22:03,210 --> 00:22:05,870 And it's let me show you and there's conversations between 419 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:07,670 science people or whatever going on. 420 00:22:08,120 --> 00:22:12,220 And then there's a sort of the revelation that hits and that sort of 421 00:22:12,290 --> 00:22:17,300 educational storytelling, that journey of discovery, if you like, seems to 422 00:22:17,300 --> 00:22:21,850 be working quite well and is becoming more and more, it's starting to 423 00:22:21,870 --> 00:22:23,260 become more and more common, I think. 424 00:22:24,745 --> 00:22:25,935 Nikki Lindgreen: I would agree with that. 425 00:22:25,935 --> 00:22:28,295 I would say there's always ways to game the system. 426 00:22:28,295 --> 00:22:31,875 Just like you said, marketers screwed up UGC by over utilizing it. 427 00:22:32,175 --> 00:22:36,025 I think similarly in the TikTok affiliate programs right now. 428 00:22:36,285 --> 00:22:40,225 That could be a good place for the little video you just mentioned, but 429 00:22:40,465 --> 00:22:44,255 TikTok affiliates may or may not be coming very crowded with the people 430 00:22:44,255 --> 00:22:47,555 who just got free product and are excited to say anything about it to 431 00:22:47,555 --> 00:22:50,135 make a 10 to 15 percent commission. 432 00:22:50,415 --> 00:22:55,695 So I think as much as we in, we as marketers wanted UGC to help build 433 00:22:55,695 --> 00:22:59,785 our brand through third parties that were more credible, the end is, 434 00:22:59,875 --> 00:23:03,990 it may be hitting our credibility by these people, maybe just not. 435 00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:06,880 Looking our brand, speaking the brand. 436 00:23:07,150 --> 00:23:10,100 So it's a little bit all over the place and I think brands like really 437 00:23:10,100 --> 00:23:14,380 should work closely with whomever is running influencers, just to 438 00:23:14,380 --> 00:23:19,660 make sure the whole, the whole space of it feels good from a branding 439 00:23:19,665 --> 00:23:21,670 perspective and doesn't feel off brand. 440 00:23:21,940 --> 00:23:22,930 I'll give you another example. 441 00:23:22,930 --> 00:23:25,740 We were working with a brand and they had they had just gone out to 442 00:23:25,740 --> 00:23:29,125 a bunch of people for UGC because they knew they were light on it. 443 00:23:29,765 --> 00:23:34,645 Really great content from one woman and then she started talking about how she 444 00:23:34,645 --> 00:23:38,825 used it through a religious practice and it's okay the brand didn't have any 445 00:23:38,825 --> 00:23:42,845 religious standings it's okay they could use they could ask her to clip and use 446 00:23:42,855 --> 00:23:46,615 some of the video but they're like oh it was almost a slam dunk but we missed that 447 00:23:46,615 --> 00:23:50,895 she was very leaning in this direction and it's not appropriate for the brand. 448 00:23:50,990 --> 00:23:52,280 Matt Edmundson: Right there. 449 00:23:52,330 --> 00:23:52,850 Good stuff. 450 00:23:53,090 --> 00:23:55,520 So that's the outcome hook. 451 00:23:55,770 --> 00:23:57,200 What's next on the list? 452 00:23:58,315 --> 00:24:01,385 Nikki Lindgreen: Yeah, so another one that I think is working really good 453 00:24:01,435 --> 00:24:05,915 overall, through the last six to nine months is Frequently Asked Questions. 454 00:24:05,925 --> 00:24:11,625 If you think about having your CX team go through whatever the issues are 455 00:24:11,625 --> 00:24:15,145 and complaints of, being a customer or questions they're having before becoming 456 00:24:15,145 --> 00:24:20,025 a customer and answering those in video format, like probably someone at the 457 00:24:20,025 --> 00:24:25,695 company, maybe someone in in the making of the product can walk through and explain. 458 00:24:26,145 --> 00:24:28,165 The answers to those frequently asked questions. 459 00:24:28,505 --> 00:24:29,655 That's worked really well. 460 00:24:29,955 --> 00:24:36,555 Another one that's not video, but it's hitting right now is Faking a Google 461 00:24:36,585 --> 00:24:43,550 image search result of your product being like the best Incense on the market. 462 00:24:43,570 --> 00:24:48,000 And then you have faked the Google search results with like kind of the 463 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:52,000 curved edges, just like Google looks and you show all of your product. 464 00:24:52,260 --> 00:24:56,130 So that's been hitting, like we just tested it over the weekend and it had a 12 465 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:58,370 X row as versus everything else we did had 466 00:24:58,500 --> 00:24:59,240 Matt Edmundson: Oh, wow. 467 00:25:00,055 --> 00:25:00,375 Nikki Lindgreen: Yeah, 468 00:25:00,410 --> 00:25:03,630 Matt Edmundson: So this is this then is it if I'm understanding 469 00:25:03,630 --> 00:25:04,500 this correctly, Nikki. 470 00:25:05,090 --> 00:25:10,880 I sell beauty products and I'm in effect creating a video of somebody 471 00:25:10,970 --> 00:25:14,750 almost typing what's the best skincare product in the Google. 472 00:25:14,780 --> 00:25:16,170 I'm zoomed in, on the screen. 473 00:25:16,170 --> 00:25:19,090 The results come up with our products and it's click here for more info. 474 00:25:19,090 --> 00:25:20,060 Is that what you're talking about? 475 00:25:20,145 --> 00:25:20,745 Nikki Lindgreen: Exactly. 476 00:25:20,945 --> 00:25:21,555 Exactly. 477 00:25:21,845 --> 00:25:25,415 And we're running that on Meta and we're running that on TikTok. 478 00:25:25,415 --> 00:25:28,415 And so clearly the people there have experienced Google, so they 479 00:25:28,415 --> 00:25:29,405 know what they're looking at. 480 00:25:29,405 --> 00:25:33,125 But they're not having an allergic reaction to what is a Google 481 00:25:33,125 --> 00:25:34,785 search doing as an ad on Meta. 482 00:25:34,785 --> 00:25:36,125 They're like, Intrigued 483 00:25:36,135 --> 00:25:38,155 Matt Edmundson: Yeah, because I imagine it's quite a quick video. 484 00:25:38,265 --> 00:25:42,015 It seems like a few seconds long, so you're going to, I assume you're 485 00:25:42,015 --> 00:25:45,065 going to maintain their interest long enough to get it listed, right? 486 00:25:45,955 --> 00:25:46,675 Nikki Lindgreen: Exactly. 487 00:25:46,915 --> 00:25:47,145 Yeah. 488 00:25:47,145 --> 00:25:50,495 And then we can talk about more hooks, but I think a way in which marketing 489 00:25:50,495 --> 00:25:55,375 is evolving with all of the third party tracking going to the wayside is bring the 490 00:25:55,385 --> 00:26:00,025 funnel journey to the social platform so that you are potentially, and hopefully 491 00:26:00,025 --> 00:26:03,745 most marketers are doing this already, but like the remarketing is built on. 492 00:26:04,225 --> 00:26:07,175 Earlier assets they were exposed to engagement. 493 00:26:07,695 --> 00:26:08,525 There's a lot. 494 00:26:08,745 --> 00:26:12,945 We've done first versus third party tests in terms of remarketing pools 495 00:26:12,945 --> 00:26:18,525 on Meta and TikTok, and it is proving that their own first party, the social 496 00:26:18,525 --> 00:26:24,075 first party, does perform better than website remarketing, which is insane. 497 00:26:24,295 --> 00:26:26,135 Who would have thought we would find ourselves here? 498 00:26:26,135 --> 00:26:27,075 But yeah. 499 00:26:27,845 --> 00:26:28,785 It's the way we're going. 500 00:26:29,455 --> 00:26:33,105 Matt Edmundson: So what does that mean then for the skincare brand? 501 00:26:33,155 --> 00:26:34,615 How does that work in reality? 502 00:26:35,465 --> 00:26:38,165 Nikki Lindgreen: Yeah, so what we will be doing let's just 503 00:26:38,165 --> 00:26:40,015 talk about a meta ads funnel. 504 00:26:40,225 --> 00:26:43,635 So what we'll be doing on meta ads is really finding our most 505 00:26:43,815 --> 00:26:48,205 enjoyable content that people are consuming as video for the very top 506 00:26:48,205 --> 00:26:49,885 of the funnel, the cold audiences. 507 00:26:50,145 --> 00:26:52,985 Once they watch a percentage of the video, it doesn't matter if 508 00:26:52,985 --> 00:26:55,225 they clicked, it doesn't matter, anything else doesn't matter. 509 00:26:55,455 --> 00:26:58,065 But once they got to the top, a percentage of the video or a couple 510 00:26:58,065 --> 00:27:01,865 seconds, and then we'll start remarketing to them with what we believe is the 511 00:27:01,865 --> 00:27:05,215 next kind of like educational journey to make them like us even more. 512 00:27:05,475 --> 00:27:08,725 And so we'll show them those sets of videos, ideally at that point with an 513 00:27:08,755 --> 00:27:12,965 objective to convert, but if for some reason that isn't working, we'll continue 514 00:27:12,965 --> 00:27:18,455 to hook them and pull them down to the lowest level, which would be like really 515 00:27:18,455 --> 00:27:22,965 the testimonials, third party credibility from like press quotes, things of that 516 00:27:22,965 --> 00:27:24,395 sort is what we would do at the bottom. 517 00:27:24,395 --> 00:27:29,495 But like the whole the whole funneling system and like the ecosystem of ads 518 00:27:29,495 --> 00:27:32,175 and where people are going to find you and it's choose your own adventure. 519 00:27:32,425 --> 00:27:36,275 So I think it's really hard to work with old school marketers who are like how 520 00:27:36,275 --> 00:27:37,625 are we going to hook them the first time? 521 00:27:37,625 --> 00:27:39,195 How are we going to move them down the funnel? 522 00:27:39,195 --> 00:27:42,395 Because it's just, it really is choose your own adventure these days. 523 00:27:42,415 --> 00:27:44,255 Yeah, 524 00:27:44,735 --> 00:27:45,735 Matt Edmundson: idea, isn't it? 525 00:27:45,735 --> 00:27:48,535 And we've had people on the show talk about this before, where the 526 00:27:48,535 --> 00:27:50,215 funnel actually is on social media. 527 00:27:50,265 --> 00:27:54,075 I'm going to take you from here to here, and then possibly your two, 528 00:27:54,095 --> 00:27:57,015 three steps in before I even think about trying to convert you, into 529 00:27:57,015 --> 00:27:58,175 getting our products on the site. 530 00:27:58,815 --> 00:28:02,735 How do you see that type of funnel working, say, in conjunction with, 531 00:28:02,735 --> 00:28:05,115 say, TikTok Shop, where they're not even actually ever coming to your 532 00:28:05,115 --> 00:28:07,875 website, you're creating this funnel, they're buying it in that ecosystem, 533 00:28:07,875 --> 00:28:08,955 I don't know if you've tried that. 534 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:14,430 Nikki Lindgreen: we do run ads for TikTok Shop and Metashops 535 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:17,110 and I think how does it work? 536 00:28:17,120 --> 00:28:18,510 It works a heck of a lot better. 537 00:28:18,510 --> 00:28:21,910 You will get better results when you point people to those shops as 538 00:28:21,910 --> 00:28:23,420 opposed to your eCommerce store. 539 00:28:23,420 --> 00:28:26,600 So I think if the jury's still out and management is still 540 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:30,360 concerned, like we're seeing on average a 27 percent lift in ROAS. 541 00:28:30,360 --> 00:28:32,221 So I there's a lot of different ways that you can do that in pointing to 542 00:28:32,221 --> 00:28:34,201 the store on the social platform. 543 00:28:34,471 --> 00:28:36,541 So the efficiencies are there. 544 00:28:36,891 --> 00:28:40,351 How it works, I think from a consumer perspective, it's just that much 545 00:28:40,351 --> 00:28:42,381 simpler and fewer touch points. 546 00:28:42,911 --> 00:28:46,651 I was talking to a couple prospects last week and they were higher 547 00:28:46,651 --> 00:28:49,231 consideration and like longer lead time. 548 00:28:49,851 --> 00:28:52,321 Those would be places or more mature audiences. 549 00:28:52,361 --> 00:28:55,871 Those would be times where like shop probably isn't going to outperform 550 00:28:55,871 --> 00:29:00,621 because they really want to be immersed in the content of your website before 551 00:29:00,621 --> 00:29:04,531 they consider, so there are going to be outliers, but I would say if you 552 00:29:04,531 --> 00:29:09,741 normally have a purchase journey that's under 15 days in your AOVs, under a 553 00:29:09,741 --> 00:29:14,761 couple hundred dollars, you should be fine to be testing out TikTok shops and 554 00:29:14,761 --> 00:29:16,911 Metashops and probably see some success. 555 00:29:17,466 --> 00:29:19,786 Matt Edmundson: yeah, which makes an awful lot of sense, really. 556 00:29:19,966 --> 00:29:20,726 Yeah, no very good. 557 00:29:20,736 --> 00:29:22,546 Okay, so the, we've had the FAQ hook. 558 00:29:23,161 --> 00:29:28,131 We've had the little sidestep here into the fake Google search video. 559 00:29:28,721 --> 00:29:30,291 What else is on your little list? 560 00:29:30,301 --> 00:29:32,831 So the, but in fact now let me, if I can, let me just rewind. 561 00:29:34,201 --> 00:29:37,681 Let's go back to the FAQ questions. 562 00:29:37,691 --> 00:29:39,841 So your research in the questions, which. 563 00:29:40,141 --> 00:29:44,891 Get asked by customers either through your customer service team or through 564 00:29:44,891 --> 00:29:46,571 Google and doing searching the questions. 565 00:29:47,261 --> 00:29:50,961 Those videos you're creating are they like talking headshots? 566 00:29:50,961 --> 00:29:53,951 That is me with camera going, Oh, this is my beauty product. 567 00:29:53,951 --> 00:29:54,711 This is what it does. 568 00:29:54,711 --> 00:29:55,511 This is going to be great. 569 00:29:55,521 --> 00:29:56,491 This is how you use it. 570 00:29:56,521 --> 00:29:58,671 Or is there a bit more thinking? 571 00:29:59,391 --> 00:29:59,901 Behind it. 572 00:30:00,806 --> 00:30:02,766 Nikki Lindgreen: Yeah, I think it's interesting because like it is a 573 00:30:02,766 --> 00:30:04,096 little bit of the Wild West, right? 574 00:30:04,096 --> 00:30:08,036 Like we will say this is what we want you to do, but it's up to the brand to say 575 00:30:08,036 --> 00:30:10,126 okay I'm gonna hire a creator to do that. 576 00:30:10,126 --> 00:30:12,816 I believe do it. 577 00:30:13,186 --> 00:30:16,426 So like the ways in which it can be executed, I think is like really 578 00:30:16,426 --> 00:30:18,926 whatever feels natural for your brand. 579 00:30:19,226 --> 00:30:22,946 So we try not to be like, as we get working with brands, we can be much more 580 00:30:22,946 --> 00:30:26,126 formulate because we understand their vibe and like what they're going for. 581 00:30:26,126 --> 00:30:29,666 But to say on this conversation here, like this is prescriptive, 582 00:30:29,906 --> 00:30:31,276 like exactly how to do it. 583 00:30:31,276 --> 00:30:33,766 It's a maybe like land really flat. 584 00:30:34,116 --> 00:30:36,486 So I think it's hearing that frequently asked questions. 585 00:30:36,486 --> 00:30:40,536 Okay, they want to know if the gold is 14 or 18 karat cool. 586 00:30:40,586 --> 00:30:44,306 My designer can hop on and talk about that, why we think 18 karat 587 00:30:44,306 --> 00:30:45,496 is so important, blah, blah, blah. 588 00:30:45,796 --> 00:30:49,386 I think it's let's direct them towards what matters and then have 589 00:30:49,386 --> 00:30:51,076 a conversation with them around. 590 00:30:51,541 --> 00:30:54,961 What different angles we think we could actually execute against it. 591 00:30:55,221 --> 00:30:59,831 And ideally you land on a couple and it can actually be done so that we do have 592 00:31:00,361 --> 00:31:05,921 these various A B tests, because if it's just the product designer and it doesn't 593 00:31:05,921 --> 00:31:08,631 land, we could scrap it completely. 594 00:31:08,916 --> 00:31:11,406 But have missed that it was just the designer falling like a 595 00:31:11,406 --> 00:31:12,906 little flat on camera or whatever. 596 00:31:13,011 --> 00:31:13,461 Matt Edmundson: Yeah. 597 00:31:13,821 --> 00:31:14,091 No. 598 00:31:14,091 --> 00:31:14,361 Great. 599 00:31:14,361 --> 00:31:14,691 Great. 600 00:31:14,691 --> 00:31:16,161 And where are you putting those videos? 601 00:31:16,161 --> 00:31:17,571 Are you excuse me. 602 00:31:18,441 --> 00:31:20,421 Are they going on an FAQ page? 603 00:31:20,426 --> 00:31:21,711 Are they going on product pages? 604 00:31:21,766 --> 00:31:24,316 You've got some great assets or are you just using them on social media? 605 00:31:25,411 --> 00:31:29,391 Nikki Lindgreen: We're using them as ads so hopefully we can find a way for 606 00:31:29,391 --> 00:31:33,121 them to want to distribute them a lot of places but like we'll ask them unless 607 00:31:33,121 --> 00:31:37,041 they hate the assets like we'll ask them to share them organically so we can boost 608 00:31:37,051 --> 00:31:41,461 or spark them through the ads platform of Google or TikTok or Meta or TikTok. 609 00:31:42,136 --> 00:31:45,556 We'll actually also ask them to put them on YouTube Shorts unless they have an 610 00:31:45,576 --> 00:31:47,466 allergic reaction to being on YouTube. 611 00:31:47,816 --> 00:31:52,796 And then we can pick it up in Demand Gen or Performance Max or something too. 612 00:31:52,796 --> 00:31:56,756 So we're really trying to think through, ways in which we can exploit content 613 00:31:56,756 --> 00:32:00,566 for the sake of it bettering the whole company, not just like an ad placement. 614 00:32:01,196 --> 00:32:03,686 Matt Edmundson: Do you have many people with allergic reactions to YouTube? 615 00:32:03,686 --> 00:32:07,116 Nikki Lindgreen: And no a lot of people are like, let me share it, but privately, 616 00:32:07,116 --> 00:32:10,006 because we don't want people to see our ads everything on YouTube has to 617 00:32:10,006 --> 00:32:14,646 feel very much like it was created for YouTube, so there's some of that. 618 00:32:15,276 --> 00:32:15,696 Matt Edmundson: yeah. 619 00:32:15,776 --> 00:32:16,166 Interesting. 620 00:32:16,166 --> 00:32:16,766 It made me smile. 621 00:32:17,246 --> 00:32:20,666 So the ads then, you're using all this video content for ads. 622 00:32:22,446 --> 00:32:27,416 Am I still thinking about timeframes here or actually, are we going back to 623 00:32:27,416 --> 00:32:29,946 the as long as it's interesting analogy. 624 00:32:30,986 --> 00:32:34,916 Nikki Lindgreen: Yeah from a length of video, I would say 7 625 00:32:34,926 --> 00:32:36,666 to 12 seconds work really well. 626 00:32:36,666 --> 00:32:40,886 We work with a couple celebrity kind of lead brands, and people want to 627 00:32:40,886 --> 00:32:45,811 see one person, and therefore, longer videos of, in that scenario could 628 00:32:45,811 --> 00:32:49,321 work better, but I think like short and to the point, like no one has the 629 00:32:49,321 --> 00:32:51,171 attention span for more than that. 630 00:32:51,521 --> 00:32:54,811 And then I just want to evolve on to like how these hooks and pillars, 631 00:32:54,811 --> 00:32:56,611 if you will, do evolve with time. 632 00:32:56,621 --> 00:32:59,131 Like we've known since the beginning of digital marketing 633 00:32:59,131 --> 00:33:00,551 that talking about your press hits. 634 00:33:00,571 --> 00:33:04,591 In third party credibility, whether it's like your best star rating and 635 00:33:04,596 --> 00:33:07,371 what they said about your product, like works really right now. 636 00:33:07,371 --> 00:33:11,151 Like this moment in time, a split screen where on the vertical screen, the top 637 00:33:11,151 --> 00:33:14,511 is like someone doing something with the product, and the bottom is like a scroll 638 00:33:14,516 --> 00:33:18,471 reel of your, like testimonials is a type. 639 00:33:19,016 --> 00:33:22,686 third party cred and testimonial type hook that's working. 640 00:33:22,926 --> 00:33:26,526 I would have never even thought of that three months ago because that just wasn't 641 00:33:26,526 --> 00:33:30,326 in the marketplace but now we're starting to see it trend and we're starting to 642 00:33:30,326 --> 00:33:34,046 test it and like I don't know if it'll be live in six months from now but we're 643 00:33:34,046 --> 00:33:37,296 going to ride that wave now so I think it's good to have these like areas in 644 00:33:37,306 --> 00:33:40,506 which you're going to latch on to in terms of like thematic plays and then 645 00:33:40,506 --> 00:33:42,556 you have all the time to like fulfill. 646 00:33:43,056 --> 00:33:43,786 how you can do it. 647 00:33:43,796 --> 00:33:47,796 But if someone tells you that a hook or a pillar is UGC, like major eye 648 00:33:47,796 --> 00:33:51,606 roll because that's a way in which you can execute any of the hooks, 649 00:33:51,606 --> 00:33:53,396 but it's not a hook in itself. 650 00:33:53,646 --> 00:33:53,936 Matt Edmundson: yeah. 651 00:33:54,516 --> 00:33:55,576 That's I'm intrigued. 652 00:33:55,666 --> 00:34:00,441 I've not actually seen that where you have on vertical video, 653 00:34:00,441 --> 00:34:02,691 someone at the top doing something and then reviews on the bottom. 654 00:34:02,831 --> 00:34:05,081 I'm curious to see what that actually looks like. 655 00:34:05,551 --> 00:34:09,461 Mainly because I think, I just wonder if it would split my attention 656 00:34:09,471 --> 00:34:11,221 somehow and I'm, maybe it does, 657 00:34:11,436 --> 00:34:11,636 Nikki Lindgreen: Yeah. 658 00:34:11,651 --> 00:34:13,651 Matt Edmundson: don't, I'm watching this video for seven seconds. 659 00:34:13,651 --> 00:34:17,461 My attention split in 45, 000 directions anyway, right at this point. 660 00:34:17,511 --> 00:34:20,021 I'm flicking through videos faster than I know what to do with. 661 00:34:21,671 --> 00:34:24,781 So the videos that you've created for ads, we've got our different, however, any 662 00:34:25,291 --> 00:34:28,891 other hooks, by the way, that are really just, they're doing well at the moment. 663 00:34:28,891 --> 00:34:31,081 Oh, 664 00:34:31,181 --> 00:34:36,051 Nikki Lindgreen: out that does work well, but some brands also dislike is Us Vs. 665 00:34:36,111 --> 00:34:36,451 Them. 666 00:34:36,521 --> 00:34:40,581 And so I think if you can do them by name or them by the 667 00:34:40,581 --> 00:34:42,661 category overall really resonates. 668 00:34:42,921 --> 00:34:46,671 So I think if you're like a protein powder and your powder is like cleaner 669 00:34:46,671 --> 00:34:47,831 or whatever, I don't even know. 670 00:34:47,831 --> 00:34:48,961 I'm not in that lane at all. 671 00:34:49,181 --> 00:34:52,141 But like those are ones that seem to work really well is like how 672 00:34:52,141 --> 00:34:55,011 much healthier your mix is versus. 673 00:34:55,156 --> 00:34:57,296 Just the average or a competitor by name. 674 00:34:58,241 --> 00:35:00,091 Matt Edmundson: that's a really interesting, but we're just, we're 675 00:35:00,601 --> 00:35:03,901 as I say, we're talking about creating some ads for one of the 676 00:35:03,901 --> 00:35:05,141 brands that we're involved with. 677 00:35:06,441 --> 00:35:10,211 Right now doing exactly that talking Omega-3 that we have like ours is 678 00:35:10,211 --> 00:35:11,471 better than theirs because dot. 679 00:35:11,841 --> 00:35:15,631 It's very much the I call it the Apple ad because that's what Apple did, isn't it? 680 00:35:15,641 --> 00:35:19,021 Years ago they basically had a guy saying I'm Apple and then the guy 681 00:35:19,021 --> 00:35:22,771 saying I'm a PC and it was just like, I'm cool, I wear Vans and a t 682 00:35:22,771 --> 00:35:24,111 shirt, you're in a suit and a jacket. 683 00:35:24,121 --> 00:35:25,591 All those kind of things I thought were quite clever. 684 00:35:26,121 --> 00:35:30,561 I don't know, a question if I can, Nikki, we've talked about a 685 00:35:30,561 --> 00:35:34,911 lot of creative ideas and some of which I'm definitely going to try. 686 00:35:35,021 --> 00:35:37,141 I'm really curious to see what's going to happen here. 687 00:35:38,791 --> 00:35:45,861 How, if at all, are you guys using AI to help with this creation process? 688 00:35:47,026 --> 00:35:47,526 Nikki Lindgreen: yeah. 689 00:35:47,776 --> 00:35:52,176 So we are really small, but I think one of the things we are trying to 690 00:35:52,216 --> 00:35:56,546 put some of our time into is like what, what will move us forward. 691 00:35:56,546 --> 00:36:02,466 So we probably tested seven different creative AI solutions just to see. 692 00:36:02,881 --> 00:36:06,731 What one's like legit, what one can actually help us move the need forward. 693 00:36:07,071 --> 00:36:10,881 And I think we've identified one that could be a value add in terms of, 694 00:36:10,911 --> 00:36:13,981 cause we do creative briefing for our clients and creative strategy. 695 00:36:14,251 --> 00:36:19,691 So it'll simplify that and also do some actual lifting of assets for us, video or. 696 00:36:19,851 --> 00:36:35,956 Check out our podcast live every Wednesday and Saturday Starting today at 10pm ET. 697 00:36:36,306 --> 00:36:39,146 What we're finding is they're not that much of a time saver right now 698 00:36:39,146 --> 00:36:44,766 on the ads management side, and the recommendations are like pretty much the 699 00:36:44,766 --> 00:36:48,976 Google Ads recommendations verbatim, or like just that level where you're like, 700 00:36:48,976 --> 00:36:52,036 yeah, I see how this could be said, but like a person would come up with it. 701 00:36:54,136 --> 00:36:58,186 So we're not super sold on that yet, and we do work with early stage brands, 702 00:36:58,206 --> 00:37:01,546 so often times we'll pitch them, and they're like, oh, we went with Otis, 703 00:37:01,546 --> 00:37:05,186 or one of the AI plays, and then three months later, they're like, actually, 704 00:37:05,331 --> 00:37:06,151 Matt Edmundson: Can you please help? 705 00:37:06,181 --> 00:37:06,421 Yeah. 706 00:37:06,696 --> 00:37:06,756 Nikki Lindgreen: rap. 707 00:37:09,611 --> 00:37:10,161 Matt Edmundson: That's what I said. 708 00:37:10,471 --> 00:37:14,991 I'm not entirely sure that, AI is saving all the time that people 709 00:37:15,001 --> 00:37:17,801 think it is actually saving, by the time you've figured out how to use 710 00:37:17,801 --> 00:37:18,881 it and all the prompts and stuff. 711 00:37:19,561 --> 00:37:22,271 What sort of AI tools are you playing with at the moment that you're 712 00:37:22,271 --> 00:37:24,121 finding interesting, if I can ask? 713 00:37:25,351 --> 00:37:28,831 Nikki Lindgreen: Yeah, so I think on the creative side, the, our 714 00:37:28,831 --> 00:37:35,071 favorite for ad creative is called Best Ever and they are very new. 715 00:37:35,071 --> 00:37:38,701 We were fortunate enough to meet the founder since they're another Bay Area 716 00:37:38,701 --> 00:37:42,051 company, and so she's been able to walk us through the journey with her. 717 00:37:42,341 --> 00:37:46,701 And so it's been a good experience to just understand agency needs. 718 00:37:46,711 --> 00:37:49,311 So I think she's going to be a good agency solution. 719 00:37:49,311 --> 00:37:50,631 So that's best ever. 720 00:37:51,031 --> 00:37:56,171 On the management AI side, I am the most impressed with Captivate. 721 00:37:56,571 --> 00:37:58,511 And that's CAC tivate? 722 00:37:58,541 --> 00:37:59,031 I don't know. 723 00:37:59,041 --> 00:38:00,751 There's like Captivate as an agency. 724 00:38:00,751 --> 00:38:02,661 There's just so many overlaps and like names. 725 00:38:02,991 --> 00:38:06,551 But I think Captivate is still just maybe six months from now we'll take 726 00:38:06,551 --> 00:38:09,511 it a little bit more seriously, but we did the free trial, we talked 727 00:38:09,521 --> 00:38:13,156 to their CEO quite extensively, and I think it's just not there. 728 00:38:13,446 --> 00:38:14,606 Not quite there yet. 729 00:38:15,276 --> 00:38:16,076 Matt Edmundson: that's interesting. 730 00:38:16,446 --> 00:38:16,906 That's interesting. 731 00:38:16,916 --> 00:38:18,596 Be interesting to see where it goes, Nikki, 732 00:38:18,896 --> 00:38:19,486 because I'm with you. 733 00:38:19,486 --> 00:38:21,516 If you'd have asked me three months ago, I'd have said, oh, I'm playing with 734 00:38:21,516 --> 00:38:25,576 this AI tool, but now I've forgotten about that AI tool, this one instead. 735 00:38:26,126 --> 00:38:27,816 And I don't know if you're doing the same thing. 736 00:38:27,816 --> 00:38:30,846 I'm, I feel like I just jumped from one thing to the next. 737 00:38:30,846 --> 00:38:32,296 I've not settled in on anything yet. 738 00:38:32,296 --> 00:38:34,206 And I will definitely check out Best Ever though. 739 00:38:34,376 --> 00:38:36,586 I will check out the recommendation because I think 740 00:38:36,586 --> 00:38:37,786 that's that's going to be great. 741 00:38:38,196 --> 00:38:40,206 Nikki, listen, we've got to this part of the show, right? 742 00:38:40,236 --> 00:38:43,166 I should have warned you about this before we hit the record, but I'm really sorry. 743 00:38:43,376 --> 00:38:44,556 So I didn't do that. 744 00:38:44,556 --> 00:38:47,456 It's a new feature we are putting in the eCommerce podcast, which 745 00:38:47,456 --> 00:38:49,596 is why I didn't remind you because I'd completely forgotten. 746 00:38:50,111 --> 00:38:53,271 All it is for our own social media, we are doing videos 747 00:38:53,291 --> 00:38:56,631 whereby I answer guest questions. 748 00:38:56,631 --> 00:39:01,331 So I need a question from you that I can then go and answer on the 749 00:39:01,351 --> 00:39:03,181 eCommerce Podcast social media channels. 750 00:39:04,461 --> 00:39:06,221 I'm curious to know what that question would be. 751 00:39:07,816 --> 00:39:09,586 Nikki Lindgreen: Okay question for you. 752 00:39:09,886 --> 00:39:16,796 I think I would like Your point of view on what oh my gosh. 753 00:39:16,836 --> 00:39:19,246 I mean I have two different questions so 754 00:39:19,321 --> 00:39:19,881 Matt Edmundson: can ask too. 755 00:39:19,901 --> 00:39:20,391 That's fine. 756 00:39:20,391 --> 00:39:21,391 We're still new into it. 757 00:39:21,401 --> 00:39:21,901 It's totally fine. 758 00:39:22,896 --> 00:39:26,936 Nikki Lindgreen: I think the first thing that's percolating in my mind is how 759 00:39:28,266 --> 00:39:32,316 To position the work of the paid team. 760 00:39:32,426 --> 00:39:35,836 We do creative and we do landing page recommendations. 761 00:39:35,836 --> 00:39:36,596 We're not devs. 762 00:39:36,816 --> 00:39:40,996 But because the eCommerce industry feels paid media disposable and you can 763 00:39:40,996 --> 00:39:41,106 switch teams, and the result sustain. 764 00:39:43,306 --> 00:39:43,826 Matt Edmundson: Yeah. 765 00:39:45,066 --> 00:39:50,006 Nikki Lindgreen: How are they really feeling about needing to use paid media 766 00:39:50,056 --> 00:39:54,806 to grow their business and like what do you slash clients believe is going 767 00:39:54,806 --> 00:39:56,696 to happen in the next couple of years? 768 00:39:56,896 --> 00:39:58,106 Matt Edmundson: Oh, okay. 769 00:39:58,106 --> 00:39:58,786 What's going to happen? 770 00:39:58,796 --> 00:39:59,506 Love that. 771 00:39:59,586 --> 00:40:00,226 That's a great 772 00:40:00,386 --> 00:40:03,166 Nikki Lindgreen: paid with create paid creative, paid 773 00:40:03,166 --> 00:40:05,236 management and then landing pages. 774 00:40:05,236 --> 00:40:06,256 I would say like 775 00:40:06,326 --> 00:40:06,786 Matt Edmundson: Okay. 776 00:40:08,146 --> 00:40:13,746 Nikki Lindgreen: My second question if I can ask you too, would be around the 777 00:40:13,746 --> 00:40:18,276 role of the CMO, because there seems to be some news articles about that. 778 00:40:18,276 --> 00:40:21,246 I forget if it was Starbucks or another major, but they moved 779 00:40:21,246 --> 00:40:23,226 their CMO into the CEO role. 780 00:40:23,801 --> 00:40:27,251 And I don't know if they believe that like marketing is yeah, I'd just like to 781 00:40:27,251 --> 00:40:32,541 know like where CMOs are going, if the role is evolving, if they're being sunset, 782 00:40:32,551 --> 00:40:33,951 like really what's happening with CMOs. 783 00:40:34,796 --> 00:40:35,256 Matt Edmundson: Yeah. 784 00:40:35,526 --> 00:40:36,546 That's a great question. 785 00:40:36,786 --> 00:40:40,166 Especially I think in the light of AI as well which we 786 00:40:40,166 --> 00:40:41,286 were previously talking about. 787 00:40:43,231 --> 00:40:46,271 I am going to, I am going to ruminate on those questions and I'm going 788 00:40:46,271 --> 00:40:47,651 to post the answer on social media. 789 00:40:47,651 --> 00:40:49,811 If you want to know how I'm going to answer Nikki's question, make sure you 790 00:40:49,811 --> 00:40:52,431 subscribe to us on Instagram because this brand new channel, we're like 791 00:40:52,431 --> 00:40:55,861 five, Nikki, I'm ashamed to say it, we've been podcasting for five years. 792 00:40:56,131 --> 00:40:58,781 We get thousands of people downloading every month. 793 00:40:59,171 --> 00:41:02,571 We have just literally launched our eCommerce Podcast Instagram channel, 794 00:41:03,481 --> 00:41:05,131 and I'm involved in the digital space. 795 00:41:05,181 --> 00:41:06,791 Forgive me, dear listener, but go check it out. 796 00:41:06,791 --> 00:41:07,661 It'd be great to see you in there. 797 00:41:08,161 --> 00:41:11,071 Nikki, listen, I've thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. 798 00:41:11,081 --> 00:41:13,561 Huge thanks to you today coming on the show. 799 00:41:14,121 --> 00:41:15,361 How do people reach you? 800 00:41:15,361 --> 00:41:16,501 How do they connect with you? 801 00:41:16,621 --> 00:41:19,834 If they want to do that, if they want to find out more about working 802 00:41:19,834 --> 00:41:21,868 with you guys, what's the scoop? 803 00:41:21,868 --> 00:41:22,885 What's the MO? 804 00:41:22,885 --> 00:41:23,902 What's your process? 805 00:41:23,902 --> 00:41:24,241 Noodling. 806 00:41:24,751 --> 00:41:25,071 Nikki Lindgreen: Yes. 807 00:41:25,701 --> 00:41:26,081 Yeah. 808 00:41:26,081 --> 00:41:28,131 So I just love to connect. 809 00:41:28,131 --> 00:41:31,271 Part of the reason I started an agency is like I wanted to help multiple brands, 810 00:41:31,271 --> 00:41:33,061 not just be in the house with one. 811 00:41:33,061 --> 00:41:36,111 So if you have any burning questions or just need a third party point 812 00:41:36,111 --> 00:41:40,481 of view on something like reach out, I am Nikki at Pennock. 813 00:41:40,661 --> 00:41:40,831 co. 814 00:41:41,131 --> 00:41:42,881 That's P E N N O C K. 815 00:41:43,161 --> 00:41:43,791 C O. 816 00:41:44,061 --> 00:41:47,041 That's our domain too, so feel free to go ahead and check us out, but 817 00:41:47,081 --> 00:41:51,111 we'd love to hear from anyone and just spend some time noodling in 818 00:41:51,111 --> 00:41:52,326 what's going on with their business. 819 00:41:53,941 --> 00:41:55,351 Matt Edmundson: Noodling is such a good word. 820 00:41:55,761 --> 00:41:56,471 I like that. 821 00:41:56,471 --> 00:41:59,831 We will, of course, link to Nikki in the show notes as well, but 822 00:41:59,831 --> 00:42:00,851 Nikki, appreciate you coming on. 823 00:42:01,111 --> 00:42:04,081 Anything else in closing before before I close out the show here, 824 00:42:04,081 --> 00:42:05,461 anything else top of mind for you? 825 00:42:07,336 --> 00:42:09,186 Nikki Lindgreen: Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. 826 00:42:09,711 --> 00:42:11,291 Matt Edmundson: Oh, okay. 827 00:42:11,291 --> 00:42:12,261 Explain what you mean by that. 828 00:42:12,796 --> 00:42:15,016 Nikki Lindgreen: I think like sometimes people are afraid to test 829 00:42:15,016 --> 00:42:18,776 or they test and they miss the point of the test and they just, be very 830 00:42:18,776 --> 00:42:22,556 clear on what you're doing, what the objective is and don't mix up your KPI. 831 00:42:22,926 --> 00:42:23,366 So that. 832 00:42:24,091 --> 00:42:24,641 Matt Edmundson: Very good. 833 00:42:24,791 --> 00:42:25,121 Very good. 834 00:42:25,121 --> 00:42:26,571 Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. 835 00:42:26,661 --> 00:42:26,951 Brilliant. 836 00:42:27,231 --> 00:42:28,401 Nikki, thank you for coming on. 837 00:42:28,451 --> 00:42:29,411 Really appreciate it. 838 00:42:29,451 --> 00:42:30,391 It's been fantastic. 839 00:42:30,391 --> 00:42:31,401 Really enjoyed the conversation. 840 00:42:31,401 --> 00:42:32,041 Got lots of good ideas. 841 00:42:33,306 --> 00:42:33,696 Nikki Lindgreen: Thank you. 842 00:42:33,706 --> 00:42:35,056 Thanks so much for having me, Matt. 843 00:42:35,621 --> 00:42:36,381 Matt Edmundson: There you have it. 844 00:42:36,391 --> 00:42:39,181 Another fantastic conversation. 845 00:42:39,191 --> 00:42:41,541 Huge thanks again to Nikki for joining me today. 846 00:42:41,831 --> 00:42:45,721 Also, be sure to follow the eCommerce Podcast wherever you get your podcast 847 00:42:45,751 --> 00:42:49,431 from because we've got yet more great conversations lined up and I 848 00:42:49,461 --> 00:42:50,746 don't want you to miss any of them. 849 00:42:50,866 --> 00:42:51,446 Any of them. 850 00:42:51,706 --> 00:42:55,776 And in case no one has told you yet today, let me start that again. 851 00:42:55,936 --> 00:42:59,766 And in case no one has told you yet today, let me be the first. 852 00:42:59,776 --> 00:43:01,076 You are awesome. 853 00:43:01,116 --> 00:43:01,706 Yes, you are. 854 00:43:01,716 --> 00:43:02,646 Create it awesome. 855 00:43:02,906 --> 00:43:04,776 It's just a burden you've got to bear. 856 00:43:04,946 --> 00:43:05,966 Nikki's got to bear it. 857 00:43:06,036 --> 00:43:06,946 I've got to bear it. 858 00:43:07,606 --> 00:43:08,646 You've got to bear it as well. 859 00:43:08,696 --> 00:43:11,936 Now the eCommerce Podcast is produced by PodJunction. 860 00:43:11,946 --> 00:43:15,856 You can find our entire archive of episodes on your favorite podcast app. 861 00:43:15,866 --> 00:43:19,096 The team that makes this show possible is the beautiful, the 862 00:43:19,096 --> 00:43:22,776 talented, the just sheer amazing Sadaf Beynon and Tanya Hutsuliak. 863 00:43:23,116 --> 00:43:25,726 Our theme music was written by the super talented Josh Edmundson. 864 00:43:26,766 --> 00:43:29,856 And as I mentioned, if you would like to read the transcript or show notes, head 865 00:43:29,856 --> 00:43:31,726 over to the website, ecommercepodcast. 866 00:43:31,746 --> 00:43:35,126 net, where, coincidentally, you can sign up to the newsletter if 867 00:43:35,146 --> 00:43:38,476 you haven't done so already it'd be great to see you in there. 868 00:43:38,576 --> 00:43:39,806 So that's it from me. 869 00:43:40,166 --> 00:43:41,106 That's it from Nikki. 870 00:43:41,126 --> 00:43:42,796 Thank you so much for joining us. 871 00:43:43,076 --> 00:43:45,186 Have a fantastic week, wherever you are in the world. 872 00:43:45,526 --> 00:43:46,416 I'll see you next time. 873 00:43:46,536 --> 00:43:46,936 Bye for now.