0:00:00 - Deevo Tindall

The last few years, I really wanted to find a way to bridge that gap between creative and business, and so Fusion Creative was born, and we are a for lack of a better word we're a brand amplification agency. We help small businesses, entrepreneurs, with everything from content creation, because you know my photographer videography but we also do the full suite of digital marketing SEO, to blogging, to paid advertising, to website dev, all the things. So that's what Fusion Creative is.

0:00:33 - Natalie Jennings

This is the Photo Business Help podcast, a resource for photographers of all levels, from brand new to burnt out, who believe that business growth starts with personal growth. I'm your host, Natalie Jennings. I created Jennings Photo back in 2010 and have been happily full time since, but not without some mistakes along the way. Those lessons, plus what's really helped me thrive financially and personally, are what I want to share with you so you can grow with your photo business, too. You'll also hear stories from other photographers and industry folks, as well as my favorite ways to be more mindful and happier on this journey.

My conversation with Devo today is one that you don't want to miss. It is so fun. We talked about all kinds of stuff, from Bill Cosby to tarot to ice fishing and, of course, brands and holistic branding and the importance of how that plays into the success of your photography business. This is a huge piece for sustainable growth in your business. We kind of snuck it in there in the middle of a really fun conversation, so if you're into really fun conversations, take a listen to today's interview with Devo Tindall. So what brought you out to North Carolina? South Carolina? You said Charlotte, Wait North.

0:02:06 - Deevo Tindall

Carolina, huge, huge difference.

0:02:08 - Natalie Jennings

I know my geography.

0:02:10 - Deevo Tindall

Yeah, but if you're from North Carolina and you and people like they take it very seriously, it's like football and God down here If you would be like wait for you from people I'm not from South Carolina, north Carolina like they're maximally different.

0:02:22 - Natalie Jennings

Totally get it. I've been there, I know where it is. I promise I just I get it, but I would be annoyed too. It's like Minneapolis and St Paul. People are like no, there's a difference.

0:02:33 - Deevo Tindall

I've been to Minneapolis a couple of times. I have a friend I went to high school with who lives up there now, and I really love your city.

0:02:39 - Natalie Jennings

Yeah, both of them are cool.

0:02:40 - Deevo Tindall

It's not as cold as I thought it would be.

0:02:42 - Natalie Jennings

When did you visit?

0:02:44 - Deevo Tindall

Like in the wintertime, I didn't find it to be anything heinous.

0:02:47 - Natalie Jennings

You know, I will agree with you in that it's pretty reasonable, except for January, february. So like January February, you get these weeks that will go sub zero and you're like what am I supposed to do right now? It's like negative 10. But you only get a. When you add up all those days it's not as bad. It usually stays in the teens and twenties most of the winter, but like through the holiday, like December, and then into March it gets, you know, like back up into the, the freezing temps, but it's not like it's not Arctic all winter. I think people have a conception that it's like zero from like December until April, and it's it's not that bad. There's some cool stuff. There's some cool stuff like the lakes. Freezing over is my favorite because you get all that real estate to play on.

0:03:29 - Deevo Tindall

I'm unfunctional in that kind of weather, but most people are. I do know about your frozen lakes because the first time I had ever been there he picked me up at nighttime. It was the air flew in, you know, maybe like nine to 10 o'clock at night, I don't know, maybe it was earlier, I just remember it being really, really dark. So you guys lose your sun Four.

You guys lose your sunlight at like one in the afternoon. I'm like, are we in Alaska right now? But we were driving, it could have been four. Yeah, wherever he lived, we had to drive through a long stretch of a highway and I remember just sort of looking off to my right and seeing all these flickering lights out in the distance and I didn't know where they were. But they're like people setting up on the ice doing fishing. They're like RVs on the ice. And then I didn't know what, he explained to me what they were. And then, sure enough, we had the TV on at some point later that night and there was like literally commercials for ice fishing RVs and I'm like this is the coolest thing ever. I've never seen anything like this before.

0:04:20 - Natalie Jennings

It's a whole new world in parts of Minnesota. I mean, obviously, if you live in the city, a lot of people don't really get super into it, but everyone I think that's from here or has spent enough time here has no, understands that there's a whole winter culture for sure. My dad has a really funny story about picking up a buddy of his years ago from the airport and there used to be a shortcut there still is but they'll plow a couple of roads on some of the bigger lakes here so you can actually like jump onto the lake and it's like a shortcut home for us at least, where we live. So my dad loved that couple of months a year where he like got to save 15 minutes on his commute. But his buddy was like you know, they were on the road and then all of a sudden it was just pitch black and there was no road lights, no, nothing.

And his, his friends, like where are we? And my dad's like oh, we're just going across the lake and I apparently his friend, just lost it and so he had to turn around because it's just like that human or that animalistic panic set in, like he didn't, like he's like we can't be on the ice. We can't be on it. You know that kind of thing, so I don't know Some people. It's. It's hard to get that block, like the mind block, of actually being on on the water.

0:05:28 - Deevo Tindall

I'm thinking of the Game of Thrones, when they're walking across with all the the scene in the ice. You know I'm talking about.

0:05:35 - Natalie Jennings

Okay, so this is a funny thing. I've read all of the books, which are massive, but I have not seen the show, except for a couple of episodes.

0:05:44 - Deevo Tindall

Well, that's funny because I've read all the books but I've only seen season whatever the season is where they were walking on the ice and that's the only episode that I've actually seen. So I've started at. My daughter is like dad, you've got to watch the show. So I've slowly, but I don't have much time to watch TV, so I slowly like it's like a winter activity.

Yeah, like I'll watch eight minutes here. I'm like I got to move on to someone else. I'll watch six minutes there. So I mean I'm now beginning from season one, but I've seen a total of 14 minutes of the first episode.

0:06:11 - Natalie Jennings

Great Over four months, that's about. But I want to say I remember, but I don't. I do remember like wintery scenes in that, in that story, but they're in my head, so I don't know actually.

0:06:22 - Deevo Tindall

Well, there's a scene in this particular episode where they're like the walking dead people. Apparently there's like someone who is not dead, but they're the dead, but the undead but I don't even know who they are because I have no context and there's a bunch of good guys that are being chased by these undead people and the only way to get away from them is to step onto this ice. So they step onto the ice and then all these Undead people eventually surround them and so the good guys start chopping the ice so that all the undead will fall into the ice, like all in this circle. But there happens to be, like this one rock in the middle of the ice where they're all like standing on this island of rock and there's like Millions of undead around them. It's like it's a bit unbelievable, but okay.

0:07:05 - Natalie Jennings

Yeah Well, you never know, it might have happened in Minnesota at some point in history. You never know.

0:07:10 - Deevo Tindall

Yeah, I recently learned that the entire East Coast and most of where we are now in fact, was underwater. At one point. It was just one big giant glacier.

0:07:19 - Natalie Jennings

Yeah, minnesota is actually a hot spot for glacial studies. There's something. There's a river valley here and it's like a, I think it's. There's a couple of gorges and a couple of areas where Folks that study that kind of thing are interested in how deep and how fast these things were formed. But that's a whole other podcast. If you're a Randall Carlson fan, that's him or I'm in the wrong show.

0:07:41 - Deevo Tindall

Hold on, let me look at my skin.

0:07:42 - Natalie Jennings

Yeah, wait a minute, this is photo business. Help, but it's fine. I mean, this is Photographers have other lives. We do we? We go ice fishing and your camera is really sharp.

0:07:53 - Deevo Tindall

You must be a photographer. Oh is it. There's a lot of bokeh around it, but you're sharp.

0:07:58 - Natalie Jennings

Oh cool, thanks. I just have a. I splurged this year and I got a new camera and a new laptop and the new MacBook Pro with all of the bells and whistles, all the extra memory and all the extra, all of it, all of it, and it's so fast and it's so amazing because it's just making my life so much easier. But they have a new Camera setting. I'm gonna try and find it here.

0:08:20 - Deevo Tindall

So you're using the camera on your Mac book.

0:08:22 - Natalie Jennings

Yeah, they have like a new here. Let me just see when I change that.

0:08:27 - Deevo Tindall

Oh yeah, whoo yeah.

0:08:28 - Natalie Jennings

Yeah, and that's native in the. What you can't see listening Is that the bokeh thing that you get in zoom all the time, that blur background thing. It's now native in the software for Mac studio light so it kind of darkens the background a little bit. So there's a couple little tricks that help, because we're using squadcast, which is a soft like a chrome base software and it doesn't have all those nifty zoom Bells and whistles that you get for your appearance. So, thank you, it's nice to know that it's working because it's a new computer.

0:08:58 - Deevo Tindall

Yeah, it looks great. Thanks, I'm using a webcam external just because I didn't like my. I have a Mac book, but it's a maybe three-year-old version, so I don't have all the fancy gizmos that you do, but my webcam is sharp.

0:09:09 - Natalie Jennings

It might not have anything to do with it being a new computer. I think it's the latest. What is it? Sonoma is the latest iOS? It might be an iOS thing where it just messes with the actual Camera.

0:09:20 - Deevo Tindall

I've not upgraded, so I probably, or updated, so I probably should. I'm usually about three years behind schedule on the updates. It's fine, there's too many. I still have an iPhone 6 or 8. Just so you know what you're dealing with here.

0:09:33 - Natalie Jennings

I had my 8 until Like a year ago. Now I only just have a 12.

0:09:38 - Deevo Tindall

I'd like to go back to the flip phone. I got to be honest with you. If I didn't have most of my business running off of this little damn receptacle, I would just be old-style captain James T Kirk flip phone.

0:09:48 - Natalie Jennings

I am kind of old-school that way. Because of my business I probably got on social media and got an eye like a smartphone. There's a lot of things I did because of my business that I probably would have been one of those like really late bloomers or, if at all, like I would have just been in my garden or same, yeah, cool. Well, let's talk about businessy stuff a little bit. Maybe I fine.

I see you're wearing a fusion creative shirt. Tell me a little bit about I mean, I know because I have notes, but I want you to tell me what is it all about.

0:10:19 - Deevo Tindall

So I own two businesses. I own fusion photography, which is a traditional photography studio. I've owned that. I've been doing that full time since 2006 Actually really longer than that, but I was only moonlighting. I did the nine to five and I would come home. I did actually an apprenticeship for my first few years and really kind of learned the craft of Taking photos and selling photos really was the premise already know how to take my did, not to sell them.

I didn't realize I could make money in this business and then then I quit my job in 2010. I went full-time fusion photography and then that was just primarily I shoot it. I was shooting at the peak probably 60 70 weddings a year Engagements, boudoir, all the things. But I got burned out really fast on weddings just because, you know, most photographers do, I think. But my real passion is in business. Like that's something I really love. I've owned it. I've launched a few other businesses and then sold them, so that's like my bread and butter is business and so I really, over the last few years, I've really wanted to find a way to Bridge that gap between creative and business, and so fusion creative was born and we are a for lack of a better word. We're a brand amplification agency. We help small businesses, entrepreneurs, with everything from content creation, because you know my photographer videography, but we also do the full suite of digital marketing. So SEO to blogging, to paid advertising, to website dev, all the things. So that's what fusion creative is.

0:11:41 - Natalie Jennings

Yeah that's super cool. So you're in my boat. I quit my job as well in 2010 and went full-time into the wedding world and I think they're when I say boat. There was just a boat of us like not a big boat, but just a boat that just got mental over weddings. We're like we're gonna do weddings.

We're all wedding photographers. Let's go. Something happened with the shift of and I've talked about this on the podcast, apologies because I love bringing this up but that Advent of social media, which people can't believe actually didn't exist, you know, and was just coming out, but also the idea of like oh, I can have a blog I can have, like I can do this, like just with a camera on a computer and Some business sense I can do this, and it just exploded. And so whenever I talk to people that have been shooting in the same neighborhood of time as I have, it's always that we did like a Badgillian weddings at some point, you know.

0:12:34 - Deevo Tindall

I agree with exactly what you just said. Social media was definitely a player in that, but I also think this was a large factor for people to get into photography, and I think primarily from sort of an ask backwards way, because your phones take such nice photos. Everybody suddenly became photographers overnight just because they took a couple of good selfies here and there and they're like wait, my friend thinks I take really good photos, so I'm gonna go out and buy myself a really nice digital camera and they start marketing themselves as photographers even though they weren't photographers. So when I first started in Charlotte, there was really only a handful of wedding photographers. And when I say a handful, I came out in 06, there was probably like 10 of us and there's probably 10,000 of us now and they literally run the gamut from.

The gap between the best and the worst is probably the equivalent of the score miles around the planet. It's like massive and I really attribute it mostly to this. Just because you suddenly people have this context, they can take good photos. I'm like dude, you're not a photographer, you're just not a photographer. You can slap that label on, but you're not.

0:13:36 - Natalie Jennings

It's interesting the cell phone thing is or the smartphone thing, rather is a huge player in so many, like so many, shifts in people's lives, not just photography.

But I think one of the things I notice with the folks I coach and stuff or people that go through my program is that there's a number of skills, along with being able to work your camera and take a photo, that go along with having a successful business, that I think get kind of tossed aside, so to speak. There's that beautiful excitement of like I wanna make photos, I wanna take photos, I'm excited to be a photographer, I can't wait to do this, and I can remember that feeling myself of like, oh my gosh, a 50 millimeter, 1.2, does that what? Just getting blown away by just the possibilities and stuff. But then if you go too far down that road and you don't learn all of the other things, like interpersonal skills and business skills and numbers and all those other things, it just separates you very quickly, even if you're a decent, motivated photographer, from the folks that are doing really well You're spot on.

0:14:45 - Deevo Tindall

I go by the old Pareto principle it's 80, 20, it's 80%, everything else, 20% photography. And that's not to say that you're not, you're only gonna take 20% of your photos. I'm saying that your emphasis of your brand building, emphasis of your studio, should be an 80, 20 principle, because 80% of everything you do is gonna maximize that 20% of actually taking those photos. So you're spot on, spot on.

0:15:07 - Natalie Jennings

Well, there's a thing that I was curious. You mentioned in one of the things that like your stuff that you sent over to the team and stuff, but there's this idea of holistic band, holistic brand building. Can you talk a little bit about what that is and why it's important?

0:15:23 - Deevo Tindall

The term holistic is sort of a global picture of everything, and so, from my perspective, your craft, what you do as a photographer, what you do as a business person and what you sell to someone should be a solution that encompasses not just one piece of the puzzle. So when I take just as a photographer since this is a photography podcast I think part of photography isn't just taking the photo. I mean, you've already touched on this a couple of times it's building the relationship when you first engage with the customer, when they first call you, how do you respond in emails? How do you respond on the phone? How do you talk to them in their interactions? What's the engagement like and everything. This holistic perspective begins from touch one all the way through, because if you can achieve that holistic perspective, you're going to build these relationships and repeat customers. And then that's what happens.

You create this sort of wow with your clients because they're like first of all, I had no idea it was going to be that much fun to take photos with you, but in every touch point we've had, everything was excellence, from the delivery of the photo.

And I'm not saying that my photos are always like better than anyone else's. I'm not saying that, I'm just saying that let's just say I was an average photographer, because everything else that we do is based upon an idea of a holistic excellence. I do truly believe that people would be willing to forgive some of your flaws in your quality of your imagery just because the experience was so fantastic. So my title is Chief Experience Officer, so that's what I create around. Every single engagement I have with my clients is I want them to walk away and be like holy shit, that was absolutely amazing across the board. And it's because of the holistic approach we take to everything, from how we engage, to how we photograph, to how we produce, to how we get the photographs back to them, to every email, to every phone call, to literally everything. And that's what we mean by holistic.

0:17:06 - Natalie Jennings

Yeah, totally that's that experience of a brand. It's like the feeling that people get it's not necessarily just one piece of it and if you're listening and like just starting out, I always think of folks that listen to this show, that are just kind of learning the craft. Make every part of your business workflow stellar and you'll have a little grace in the quality, in the Learning part from your clients. If things are just top-notch because they'll, I mean I'm positive.

When I think back and when I look back on some of my galleries and stuff from the early days, I'm positive it's because all of the other stuff was top-notch, like I was super on time with everything, I was very responsive, I was hopefully pretty fun in person and easy to get along with and I you know everything At every touch point was, has always been Something that I've put a lot of importance on. But I think that grace for my clients in the early days probably like the return, the turning, came from the whole experience of the brand. I mean it's kind of like I'm not sponsored by them but I'll bring them up again. But it's kind of like Apple's a really good example of illustrating this idea. Like yeah, you have dropped Apple a few times already, sure no?

0:18:16 - Deevo Tindall

not sponsored, but I, you know an apple influencer.

0:18:20 - Natalie Jennings

No, but I it's a great cuz, like not that you know, I mean it's a big corporation. There's definitely flaws, but in terms of experiencing a brand, like if you Already enjoy their products like I certainly enjoy them day-to-day and how they interface with each other, but then when you walk into the store, it's this whole other thing that you associate like, oh, it's bright in here, it's really clean and it's really easy to find everything and people are. You know, if there's all these little pieces that go into the whole thing that make you go like, yeah, I guess I'll buy that again, you know.

0:18:49 - Deevo Tindall

I think what a lot of especially new businesses and new entrepreneurs and definitely photographers. I think people misunderstand that they're buying your product and they're not. People don't buy your product. They buy the emotion that your product gives them. So if you can somehow product wrap that which is the experience and touch on an emotion with your clients and Sort of excel in that space, they're gonna be very forgiving and graceful.

If you lacking in something else and really that's the space that I've always tried to operate in is like tell your story, tell a story for your client, tell their story, connect with them, build an emotional rapport, touch on their emotional heart strings. And when you do that, that's when you forge these relationships and these repeat business and the people that really want to sing your praises and do Testimonials and like next time that they're out and someone sees their photo on the wall, like they're gonna be like oh my god, that's like totally Natalie did that photo for me. Like she's the coolest person ever, she's like really bubbly personality and she's like so energetic and all you've just got to call Natalie, does everyone like and then everyone becomes your disciples, right? So that's how it works.

0:19:52 - Natalie Jennings

That's exactly how it works, a thousand percent it's. I mean, I don't know what to add to that other than it just is true. But it's such an important thing that keep in mind and it's it's certainly something that I think is growing my business Through and through. It was just that consistency of brain experience it's sort of like with teaching or I've heard it Related to comedy I'm a huge comedy fan is like people aren't gonna necessarily remember what you taught them or what you said, but they're gonna remember how you made them feel, and that I think that applies to almost anything. It's just like that.

0:20:22 - Deevo Tindall

Who's your favorite comedian?

0:20:23 - Natalie Jennings

Oh my god, I do not have a favorite comedian, but I've seen Nate Burgatzi twice now in the last year in person and he's just so funny. I just saw Eddie is her. Last week I met Frank Kelly Endo, who's like one of my.

I follow him on Instagram when YouTube first came out, frank Hell Yando was my first like YouTube thing I ever watched and I told him this. I was like, okay, this is gonna date me and it's ridiculous, but you were like my favorite person on YouTube for like. This was like 15 years ago, but he was such a sweetheart. It was a really fun show because I saw I went to Acme, which is here in Minneapolis. It was a really small, intimate room and so it was a lot of fun to just like hear him up close with not very many people in the room. It was really cool.

0:21:00 - Deevo Tindall

But I don't have any cool stories like that, but when I dropped out of college for a year and I live in Tallahassee, florida. Have you ever been to Tallahassee?

0:21:06 - Natalie Jennings

I've been through Tallahassee. That was crazy times Just anywhere in Florida. Yeah, like wow cool.

0:21:14 - Deevo Tindall

But I went and saw, I went to a comedy show. I actually took a girl that I had met to a show and I didn't realize that it was a dude named. Heard of them, bernie Mac, and we walk into the audience and we were the only white people in the entire show, like literally entire show. We're the only white people and I sat, we sat in this little area, sort of relatively up front, and you know, at Bernie Mac is one of my favorite comedians of all time and the dude started macking and making fun of us, like for the first 15 minutes of the show, like just because we're the only wife. He was like you know, did you get losses this afternoon? Are you trying to play a game? Like the whole. And I don't even know what he said, but I was like I was bright, white, red and my partner that I was there with, she was just like you could see her literally like Squirming in her seat, I know, but it was fun.

0:21:59 - Natalie Jennings

I love it. Yeah, it's so fun. That's the thing it's. If you're gonna go into like a small club or even a medium Like you just I think, have to be up for it.

0:22:08 - Deevo Tindall

Well, I didn't know the constituency of the audience at the time and I don't have an issue with it. I just was like I did not know that I went to an all-black comedy club. It's kind of crazy.

0:22:17 - Natalie Jennings

Tell a hazy. That's so interesting. No, I love it. I've been a fan most of my life, which is really cool because it's becoming really popular and kind of mainstream now, and I told a story on Instagram recently that I even, like I've been a fan of comedy so long that I went by myself to see Bill Cosby Before. This is obviously before I knew anything about the man or I wouldn't have gone, but like just Some of those memories where I'm like, damn, that's an ancient memory.

0:22:44 - Deevo Tindall

Whatever came of Bill Cosby. Did he actually get in trouble for all the stuff that he was accused of? Was it true? I don't even know.

0:22:49 - Natalie Jennings

Actually there's a good Netflix documentary that if you grew up with any of this stuff and you're interested, it's called we need to talk about Bill Cosby and it goes into all of the all of his early career and then it goes into all of the sexual abuse and misconduct and then it goes into sort of his Prison stuff and getting out and all that kind of stuff. So I think he's pretty sure he's out, but no one's very happy about that. But he was in for a little while. I mean, that documentary does a great job of just presenting all of it, but it's it's pretty horrific. Like again, I wouldn't have bought that ticket if I.

I don't think anyone would have been there.

0:23:23 - Deevo Tindall

No one is going to see him anymore, but I never know what to believe anymore when stuff like that comes out and I'm not saying that, it not true. I don't have an opinion on it just because I don't really pay much attention to media in it in of itself, so I never know, because things are always like from we're going way off tangent here, but like Photography, I was like everything in the mainstream is just sort of pitting people against people so that people can be polarized on one side Of the other on an opinion. And you know, I really it's just I'm just never gonna buy into any of it. So I don't even know anymore who's guilty and not guilty, because it feels like people are set up, people are staged, people are doing horrible things and they're not caught. Like I just never know what to believe anymore.

0:23:59 - Natalie Jennings

It's fair to feel that way. I think about most things. I will say I'm pretty sure I know how to feel about Bill Cosby, which is not very impressed, but I do totally share the sentiment of like I don't. I have a real hard time with like stuff. I just hear on a mainstream Thread or paper or headline I'm just like, okay, well, we're seeing like a fraction of what actually went on and I'll just it's, I'm the same. I think it's healthy to have skepticism and an open mind all at the same time.

0:24:26 - Deevo Tindall

Yeah that's a great. I like that, not just what's going on, but all the context that came before it to set this up in the first place. Like we know nothing, they for literally we know nothing, like literally nothing. So it's crazy to me.

0:24:37 - Natalie Jennings

It's a great way to walk through the world. I know nothing, because it just makes the world magical. You're like what? Oh my god, amazing, you know, and I can walk. I Don't have to get in the car and go everywhere. Sometimes I'm driving and I am like I will have these little moments where I'm like I was just driving to a photo shoot yesterday and I had to drive across town and I was like I'm like I'm driving, like I'm going all the way across town real fast and then I'm gonna come home and it was comfortable and I got to listen to something fun and and like this is my job and this doesn't suck, you know, like it was. Just, even though it was traffic, I was like this is great.

0:25:16 - Deevo Tindall

I'm always amazed. I love that thought. I'm always amazed that we're actually sitting in this little metal tank and we're moving across time and space and I always like Sort of feel like when I pull up next to people and I'm just like in this little vehicle, microcosm all into myself, and they're in their little vehicle, microcosm, and this person. It's just sort of a fascinating thing about that work. We're literally stick sitting in this little box that we're zipping across someplace. I just kind of like a I don't know, it's just something fun to think about. Yeah, same, we'd get along. By the way, we never get anything done, though. We just said he'd be talking about philosophical weird things.

0:25:53 - Natalie Jennings

Yeah, Like, what do you think about people in their cars?

0:25:56 - Deevo Tindall

I don't know man so how long have you been doing this podcast?

0:26:00 - Natalie Jennings

So, actually, thanks for asking. We're coming up on our 400th episode like in a couple of weeks. Yeah, so it's been a while.

0:26:08 - Deevo Tindall

Wow, so you've been doing this before. People thought podcasting was cool, sort of like picking up a digital camera.

0:26:12 - Natalie Jennings

Well, I will say this I started a podcast every single day. I started a face project, which was my first podcast, in April of 2013. So I've been podcasting for a long time.

0:26:25 - Deevo Tindall

That's fantastic. You're one of the old pioneers.

0:26:28 - Natalie Jennings

I'm like a weird pioneer.

0:26:32 - Deevo Tindall

I've been doing this for almost three and a half. Actually, we're in four years now. This will be our fourth year, so tell me a little bit about your podcast.

It's called a little impolite. It's actually we're going through a rebranding I'm going to be changing it, which I can't share with you just yet, but it's called a little impolite and really the whole space of the show is to bring people that are doing fantastic things around the planet and there is no central topic. It's like if you're doing something really cool, I want to hear about it and share it with people, and it's like you and I do right now. We're just bantering. We go down rabbit holes. I've had people who've had near death experiences. I had a water expert. I had a person on last week who consults and teaches people how to homestead and build their own farm so they can get off the grid. I had a BDSM dominatrix on a show a few weeks ago Perfect, yeah, Like just crazy, crazy guests that doing really cool shit and I'm like let's just share that with the world. So, yeah, that's what I do.

0:27:22 - Natalie Jennings

That's the best. People like that stuff. That's the kind of stuff I like to just getting to know people.

0:27:27 - Deevo Tindall

Yeah, you should follow it and listen to it.

0:27:29 - Natalie Jennings

Yeah, I will. Now that I know about it, send me the link. You might learn a thing or two.

I know Face project. A face project was a lot like that too, where I just interviewed all sorts of people and I'm in the process of figuring out if I'm going to bring it back, because I have a lot of interviews in the can and a lot of it was just same thing, but first person. So I took myself out of it. It wasn't an interview, it was just them saying I went to global, so I interviewed like someone that was shot in World War II. That was wild.

0:27:55 - Deevo Tindall

So you just ask them questions and then they only bring out their responses in the show.

0:27:59 - Natalie Jennings

Yeah, it was very highly produced so as very different than the show, like very MPR kind of.

0:28:05 - Deevo Tindall

It's a lot of editing.

0:28:07 - Natalie Jennings

Lots of music breaks and little transitions.

0:28:10 - Deevo Tindall

Do you produce your own show?

0:28:11 - Natalie Jennings

I did, I did back then.

0:28:12 - Deevo Tindall

Right now.

0:28:14 - Natalie Jennings

Right now, I don't know Shout out to full cast, full cast production. If you want to do a podcast, yeah, they're great, they do all the amazing stuff that I don't feel like I need to do anymore. I think it's important. I mean, back to the business thing, like when I have had different people, you know different assistants and whatever. You have a team as well, as I noticed. It's nice to kind of have done it yourself for like a minute, just so you know what's going on, though I think that's really helpful.

0:28:41 - Deevo Tindall

You have to. Yeah, I don't think there's any successful entrepreneur on the planet that didn't once do everything themselves in the back of their garage or in their mom's minivan or something. I mean Jeff Bezos, amazon if you study his story, apples what's the dude who used to run or started Apple? I never forget. I always forget his name Larry, something. No, no, he died Colon cancer.

0:29:01 - Natalie Jennings

Oh, you're just talking about the main dude.

0:29:04 - Deevo Tindall

Yeah, the main cat who started Apple. What's his name? We should know this. You're an influencer. You should definitely know this.

0:29:09 - Natalie Jennings

I know it's right on the. I can see his face, I can see his glasses, I can see his shoes. I can see his black turtleneck.

0:29:15 - Deevo Tindall

Yeah, every one of those people were guerrilla marketers, or a Swiss army knife or a team of one, steve Jobs, steve Jobs, you got it. Just going to keep saying it, I'm sorry.

0:29:26 - Natalie Jennings

Everyone listening is like Steve Jobs you know, when you're listening to something and someone just does what we just did, it's annoying.

0:29:32 - Deevo Tindall

I'm kind of off center in the frame. I don't know why.

0:29:34 - Natalie Jennings

That's all right, we're not recording video.

0:29:36 - Deevo Tindall

It's like a one third it's photography podcast, so I know here's how you frame in a podcast.

0:29:43 - Natalie Jennings

I would love to hear from listeners. Sorry to interrupt our interview, but if you're listening and you would like to see video, or if you consume stuff on YouTube, please send me a note, natalie, at photobizhelpcom, because I think I might start doing it.

0:29:56 - Deevo Tindall

Here's your first feedback from one of your listeners. Highly recommend it. Yeah, for real, youtube has been a big deal for us.

0:30:04 - Natalie Jennings

Awesome.

0:30:04 - Deevo Tindall

Yeah, highly recommend it.

0:30:06 - Natalie Jennings

Yeah, I've heard that. I've heard that so many times that I'm like I got to figure this out.

0:30:10 - Deevo Tindall

I mean it's pretty easy. You just take this and then, like you do for your audio, you just convert it up. It's really pretty easy, I'm going to do that.

0:30:17 - Natalie Jennings

It means I have to like get dressed.

0:30:21 - Deevo Tindall

Oh yeah, well, I mean, I don't know.

0:30:23 - Natalie Jennings

Yeah, this is fine Sweat shirt.

0:30:25 - Deevo Tindall

Yeah, I don't think you have to get that dress. I think the day of getting dressed up for everything are over. People really want to see authenticity and genuineness and like they sort of like, emotionally, can connect with you because, hey, I like to wear my hoodie and stuff like that stuff too. And it's really like if you sucked and your voice sucked and you had a really horrible show, like people would turn off. But your audio is good, you have a good visual interface, your voice is good, you have a nice demeanor. You're very charismatic. Yeah, yeah, people are very forgiving in that space of like how you look. Yeah, unless you go to a Bank of America event, like I did the other night, and it's like the wealthiest people in the world were at this event and I was like Were you photographing?

0:30:59 - Natalie Jennings

Yeah, oh, tell me about this event. How did this go? What was your photo experience?

0:31:05 - Deevo Tindall

It's one of their shareholders annual meetings, and they bring in all the big dogs from around the world. And this was in Charlotte. Yeah, because Bank of America has a huge operation center here. It's the second largest outside of New York City or Chicago, I forget, yeah. So, anyhow, that's what it was, and I was just Do you bring a team, or is it just you?

0:31:23 - Natalie Jennings

or what's it look like on the photo? End?

0:31:25 - Deevo Tindall

It was two of us, yes, and just really just canvassing the hood, just really just telling the they just wanted content so that they could use it for whatever they do with social media, whatever they do. So, yeah, pretty cool. But everyone there was like the top of the top in Bank of America, type of thing, so kind of has to get dressed up for that. I did not go into a hoodie, did you wear a suit? Just a sweat button down. Just, you know, like nice, I wear a vest. I'm a vest, dude. Yeah.

0:31:52 - Natalie Jennings

A waistcoat.

0:31:52 - Deevo Tindall

I don't even know what that is. Is that a waist?

0:31:54 - Natalie Jennings

It's a vest. It's just like the British version of a way of a vest. It's a waistcoat, oh really.

0:31:59 - Deevo Tindall

Yeah, what's the name of the show. Speaking of the British, I'm horrible at names because I don't watch a lot of TV, but they were like British gangsters back in the day is a big show right now.

0:32:08 - Natalie Jennings

I don't watch a lot of clearly. I don't Peaky blinders.

0:32:11 - Deevo Tindall

Peaky, that's it. I love how they dress.

0:32:13 - Natalie Jennings

Look at this I'm coming up my brain's just like a couple seconds. It's like chug a chug, a chug, a chug yeah.

0:32:19 - Deevo Tindall

I love how the dudes dress. Actually I love how all. I think that was like the 1920s Three piece suits, yeah, but they were a vest. Vests are sharp.

0:32:26 - Natalie Jennings

I love me a good piece.

0:32:28 - Deevo Tindall

Yeah, I love vest. I think I have like 20 or 30 vests. I just. There's a really cool store in town that sells like vintage clothes it's like from the yesteryear and I was going there an hour.

0:32:40 - Natalie Jennings

Is it like? It's not like a haberdashery, though.

0:32:42 - Deevo Tindall

No, it's that he just collects really cool vintage clothes and hats and boots and shoes and stuff and every time I go over there I find the coolest vests and I'm like I'm walking home with this one.

0:32:51 - Natalie Jennings

That's cool, I love that Vests and shoes.

0:32:54 - Deevo Tindall

I'm a shoe collector.

0:32:56 - Natalie Jennings

Right on.

0:32:57 - Deevo Tindall

Which is ironic because I'm mostly barefoot.

0:32:59 - Natalie Jennings

I'm barefoot right now, are you? I have slippers on because I'm in Minnesota, so slipper time. It's kind of chilly. It's not like cold yet, but it's in the 50s, which you know. It's cold enough. What's your favorite thing to photograph Like? If you could only shoot one thing for the rest of forever, what would you choose?

0:33:17 - Deevo Tindall

Anything where I get to spend one in one time with the client and really peel back the covers and just really just get to know who they are.

And my excellence, if I have any one thing I had to say is I'm very intuitive and I connect really well with people and it doesn't matter who they are. I can connect with anybody. So anywhere, anytime where I just get the opportunity to. So I do a lot of lifestyle photography, I do a lot of personal brand work. So anything in the personal brand one-on-one capacity where I just get to spend six, four, five, six hours with you, natalie, and just we bounce, we get in the car, we just bounce, we hit the, just go wherever we have lunch, we'll have a beer, like whatever, and then throughout that process we just become fast friends. And then your paparazzi, I just get to tell your story. So anything in that space I don't really have.

Like that could be an engagement session, that can be a personal brand, that can be, literally, I should have a Boudoir, for whatever reason.

I don't advertise it, but I do, I'm sure, a decent amount of Boudoir and I find Boudoir as a man. You'll appreciate this. It's not for the reasons you would think, because not everybody is a supermodel. I just really love enabling people to see how I see them in that moment. And then when you give them their photos this is probably my ego talking, but like the tears and the goose bumps and like all the stuff where people like, holy shit, I really am pretty fucking hot, like that's pretty cool to me to be able to say that I delivered this to you and you got to cherish that moment and see, because, for whatever reason, I shoot a lot of divorceease. I'm not really sure what that means, but I shoot a lot of divorceease who are sort of like trying to recover and rebound, and so when I give them their book or their album or their photos and they get to sort of see themselves in a light that they have not been told or seen themselves in so many years, like it's kind of an empowering thing for me.

0:35:04 - Natalie Jennings

Yeah, empowering people is great. I feel like I've had that happen a few times with my branding work, where I've had people say, like I never, like I feel more confident building this business or making this offer or whatever. Now that I see myself the way you see me, like it's like this. It's such a great. I keep a folder of all these emails, but it's really cool to know that an image, just a professional image, can really empower someone so much, no matter what genre it is.

0:35:30 - Deevo Tindall

But I suspect that's why you got into photography in the first place. To some extent, if that's what you're passionate about being able to take those moments for people and freeze them for posterity and then they have that for the rest of their life and you were responsible for that Like that's not only a gift but a pretty honorable thing to be able to do, so that now somebody is taking this piece it's like a time machine that you're handing them, that you created for them, that you crafted for them with all of your TLC and passion and spirit and everything that you did, and you hand that to them and they get to take that, and they get to carry that with them and freeze that little tiny moment in time for the rest of their life, and I think that that is one of the coolest things you could possibly have a gift be able to get.

0:36:14 - Natalie Jennings

It's very cool, reminding me of an interview I had not too long ago with Krista Reed, friend of mine, local photographer but she said something I'm gonna mess this up but she said something along the lines of, like, I don't like thinking of it as taking photos for people, I like thinking of it as giving photos to people and she's like just that mindset shift is actually really powerful and I was like, ooh, I love that, it's really nice.

0:36:34 - Deevo Tindall

Yeah, you're creating something. You're crafting and creating something.

0:36:37 - Natalie Jennings

Yeah, you're creating an experience. That's right Back to that again and again with the connecting with people thing. I mean we met two minutes ago, so, but I feel like the ability people might think like oh, they might've met before, had like a long chat off air, or like we've never seen each other in the world, ever as far as I know, and I think that- Maybe in a former life. Possibly.

0:36:58 - Deevo Tindall

Maybe we were ice fishers together.

0:37:01 - Natalie Jennings

Oh, the ice fishing. We brought it full circle. How did we do that? We brought it back to ice fishing. That's really good.

0:37:08 - Deevo Tindall

It's the holistic podcast.

0:37:10 - Natalie Jennings

Well, it's a great way to start wrapping it up, but I mean it is-.

0:37:13 - Deevo Tindall

We have to end already. Is this too much fun?

0:37:15 - Natalie Jennings

I know it's fun.

0:37:16 - Deevo Tindall

Damn your 30 minute window.

0:37:18 - Natalie Jennings

We'll do it again and we'll talk a little bit more about brand strategy next time.

0:37:22 - Deevo Tindall

All right, maybe you have to come on my show, Nick, I'd love to. All right, what's your superpower?

0:37:27 - Natalie Jennings

Probably connecting with people. I read tarot and that's a big part of my coaching program, so I like that part.

0:37:33 - Deevo Tindall

That's fantastic. We should dive into that. You could read me on the air.

0:37:37 - Natalie Jennings

Never done that before. Let me think about it.

0:37:39 - Deevo Tindall

Okay, well, you don't have to, then I want you to be comfortable.

0:37:42 - Natalie Jennings

You might know her. Do you know Anami Tonkin? She's also in the Carolinas. No, I don't think so, but she's got like a big. This can't be that hard. Awesome educational business for photographers. Check it out all of you. She's amazing. Tell me her name, anami Tonkin. I think she's. I'll say A-N-N-E-M-I-E. Anami. It looks different than it's a, but this can't be that hard is her thing and she. So I did a reading for her kind of off air, and then we talked about it on her podcast and that worked really well because she was able to sort of feel like she could digest it and actually talk about it honestly. And she was like I'm really allergic to Wu, so this might be, you know. And then she was like this is great. So, yeah, she had me on her show. She was gracious enough to invite me to one of her events to be a reader. So she's like I know you're a photographer and you might want to do photography stuff, but would you want to come out and do readings? And it was awesome, it was great.

0:38:39 - Deevo Tindall

That's cool. I have a guest coming on in a few weeks. She does human design.

0:38:42 - Natalie Jennings

Yeah, I had a human design coach for a minute.

0:38:45 - Deevo Tindall

Really.

0:38:46 - Natalie Jennings

Yeah, I like I'm interested in all of it, like I, you know I was whatever I've done all of the, I'm just interested. I'm like, okay, let's check this out, I'll try it, you know.

0:38:55 - Deevo Tindall

So you have a photography business, you have a podcast, you're an educator. You also train pets for the circus. What else do you do?

0:39:02 - Natalie Jennings

How did you know about the circus? I know everything. I'm intuitive. No that I mean I am working on, because I enjoy the tarot stuff a lot. I'm working on kind of offering that to. I offer that to everyone. It started out that I was offering it in the beginning of my photography coaching program and it was awesome and now I'm trying to work on bringing that and some other training stuff I'm doing. You know all the stuff.

0:39:30 - Deevo Tindall

How does that play into your connecting with people?

0:39:33 - Natalie Jennings

Should we just? We'll interview me now.

0:39:36 - Deevo Tindall

I mean a podcast for me is a conversation between two people who are interested in curious.

0:39:42 - Natalie Jennings

No, no, I agree.

0:39:43 - Deevo Tindall

How does it play? I don't think it should be. I never bring anybody on and be like. I was on a podcast last week, natalie, true story. I know you have to go and you're trying to get rid of me, but it was literally this so your name is Devo and you, oh, oh, you also you're an entrepreneur, okay, cool.

So I was like tell me what's it like to be an entrepreneur? And I was like and then, and I would answer it, and then the next question, from a scale of one to 10, I was like, and I was like I literally stopped him and I said hey, man, I have a proposition. I'm not trying to tell you to run a show, but how about we just lose the questions and let's just have a conversation about all the things in life? And he's like, really. And I was like yeah, man, let's just have a conversation and let's just see what where it goes. And I totally commandeered his show, which I feel like a dick for doing. But it was either that or I'm not going to continue the show, cause I don't really want to sit here and be interviewed in a question style and you're not even going to listen to anything I'm saying.

0:40:33 - Natalie Jennings

No, I don't plan out my questions.

0:40:34 - Deevo Tindall

Does that sound like a dick move? Cause I don't really want to.

0:40:36 - Natalie Jennings

Well, I think it's just it's hard to be engaged and like a good guest if you're not feeling connected to somebody. You know. That's even like, if I think. I mean, I don't know the answer for sure, but I think it's good to have said something. If you had more fun.

0:40:52 - Deevo Tindall

What's the name of your photography Instagram feed? I don't have it and I don't know that I've even seen it.

0:40:56 - Natalie Jennings

That photo, biz help. And at Jennings photo, that's where I am. What did you ask me about the tarot thing? Cause it was an interesting question and I was like why are you asking me?

0:41:06 - Deevo Tindall

Well, well, there's an obvious interplay to me between being able to understand people's through their tarot, through their, you know, as an intuit cause that's sort of what you are and empathic into it, that's kind of what you're doing. So how does that play off into when you're taking photos with somebody and you connect with them and engage with them and you sort of almost know a lot more about them than they might know about?

0:41:27 - Natalie Jennings

themselves. I don't know if it's knowing more about them, but I certainly feel like I can read when people are really stressed out at a shoot or when they're feeling really insecure or when they're like getting kind of tired, or I feel like. I think it's just a muscle we all have to be able to read people and to be able to like really but we don't use it.

0:41:48 - Deevo Tindall

We don't all use it.

0:41:49 - Natalie Jennings

No, and I think when you start using it and then when you start using it more and more and more, it really gets quite clear Like you can walk into a room and you're like, well, they seem bothered and they seem happy and you know, I mean you can without even talking to people. But I think it helps just to be able to read people in general in this business, because people are insecure in front of the camera. I've been doing a lot of dating app photos, which has been so fun. It's been really fun. But I mean it's awkward for people Like that's their language. They're like this is so awkward and I'm like don't worry, it's gonna be fun, you know.

0:42:19 - Deevo Tindall

That's what my personal brand stuff is. I do a lot of dating stuff for people.

0:42:23 - Natalie Jennings

It's fun. It's super fun.

0:42:25 - Deevo Tindall

I have a little hack that I've been able to increase my business for. Would you like me to share it with?

0:42:28 - Natalie Jennings

you? Yeah, share it, maybe you already do it.

0:42:30 - Deevo Tindall

I actually help them write their dating profile.

0:42:32 - Natalie Jennings

Oh cool.

0:42:33 - Deevo Tindall

Because I'm a really good writer.

0:42:34 - Natalie Jennings

That's cool.

0:42:35 - Deevo Tindall

Yeah. So here's a little hack you could do in your implement in your business. I actually that's part of an add-on service I do with them, so I take their, I tell their story through my lens and then I take their dating profile and I rewrite it for them so that dudes aren't such dingleberries when they show up on the dating app.

0:42:49 - Natalie Jennings

Interesting Cause. All of my clients so far have been gentlemen.

0:42:52 - Deevo Tindall

Dudes don't know shit, both at the time I'll let you say that, not me yeah. Yeah, like I read a profile, like come on, man, who are you trying to attract? A chimpanzee?

0:43:03 - Natalie Jennings

like I will say I've had a lot of feedback already. If we are gonna go into like sort of the male female dynamic, I think it is helpful that my perspective is interjected in these photo shoots, because a lot of times I'll be 100% you know, it would be really cool Is, why don't we get your dog in here? Because I would love to see that photo, you know, and I think that that not that I'm like in the you know I'm, I have a partner and stuff, but it's like I think just the Perspective of like what I would go for is also helpful. It makes the collection a little bit more interesting than what they probably have in their head 100%.

0:43:36 - Deevo Tindall

You should fly down to Charlotte and photograph me. Okay, I'm just saying might be a good photo shoot. It's hard to find people who get shit and understand it like for me. Because I personally believe that you should not hire me if you and I will tell clients this. Don't hire me if you find me my personality to be abrasive or obnoxious or whatever, because you're not gonna have fun during the photo shoot, no matter how fucking good I am.

Like I want you to be able to connect with me. I want you to have fun with me. I want you to take me home and introduce it to your mom. If that would be the situation I don't want you to be like I'm so bored of these photos. I like want this to be over at. This guy's really annoying like. Just don't book me if you find. And that's why no, I will not take on any photo shoot until I have a chance to talk to them on the phone or in a zoom or in person. And you have to meet me first. You have to see my energy. Like, is there gonna be a vibrational connection there?

0:44:22 - Natalie Jennings

Yeah, yeah and that's that. That's that connecting with people thing. That's such a big part of it. I want to do a whole episode. I want to do many episodes on like the importance of that skill in this industry, because I think it actually might be as Important as your photo quality.

0:44:35 - Deevo Tindall

I'm gonna write a blog post on it this week, do and just to be inspired by you. How about that? Because I have to get my blog out today cool, send it over, I'll share it.

0:44:43 - Natalie Jennings

Yeah, yeah, okay, I do have to wrap up. But one thing I love to ask people this is the only sort of canned thing that I do, because it's fun and I learn a lot from it. I have post-its from people, like from past guests. What is one thing that, just something that pops in, like like a quote Sort of thing, that motivates you, a thing that like that really helps you, just like in life, in business, everyone sort of has these little anecdotes or quotes or under promise, over deliver. Yeah, there it is.

0:45:13 - Deevo Tindall

It's one of my favorite do what you say, say what you mean. Yeah, yeah, I mean I'm really, really, really, really big on following through on what you've committed to, and as business owners, as photographers, is, you know, just a not to recap that honor and privilege that I was speaking of earlier. But you know, we have a privilege bestowed upon us then and an honor that they're asking us to do something for them. They're giving us money as a resource exchange, and if I don't respect that and show up with everything I have to give, then for me I'm dishonoring that obligation, and so for me, it's always, you know, like flakiness is one of my most hated attributes of people. Like don't flake, man, if you're gonna do something.

I have two kids. I'm like, if you tell someone you're gonna do something, come hell or high water, you better do that and follow through, or you better have a really good excuse that you can't and make and let them know. Like don't just walk away from without letting anybody know. Like you can see, I've had some PTSD and trauma around this from early childhood days. I suspect I should probably speak to a therapist.

0:46:12 - Natalie Jennings

No, but I mean, that's a great one and I I'd love to end it on the under promise, over deliver. So in any way that you can. You know, sometimes it's giving a few extra images, sometimes it's just, you know, it can be so many different things like, but that feeling, it goes back to the feeling of the experience of your brand. If someone walks away going, oh my gosh, and they were so awesome, they did this too, or whatever, you know, and it doesn't have to be costly to you, it just can be Extra for them, you know, and that that's that's a big one for me too. So you get it.

Yeah well, thank you so much, devo. This was way more fun than I've had in a while on this podcast. It's great, great to just Chat, chat, chat, chat now.

0:46:54 - Deevo Tindall

Well, I appreciate that has been fun. It's really nice to get to know you. I'm honored by there's a lot of negativity around social media and all the things, because there's just so much negativity in that space, but I'm a firm believer that if you approach it from a different mindset and use it with conscious, conchie-inchess objectives in terms of like, really showing up and using it to share your message and do good in the world I'm not trying to sound cliche but like never in the history of the our planet that we know of have we had a chance to speak to seven and a half billion people For free and, like you and I would have never met, have we not had this platform, or we not have social media, or you know All the people that are doing all the things, and so it's a great, it's a. It's just for me, it's like every day. It's like this is fucking cool. I get to show up and talk to cool people like Jesus Christ. How can you have anything else bad to say?

0:47:41 - Natalie Jennings

I know well, and we should just and that should be that complete. Yeah, thank you so much for coming on.