# ep 122. Are You Racist? Unveiling Hidden Biases | 🎙️ A Black Executive Perspective

[00:00:00]

## [00:00:00] Introduction and Personal Experience with White Privilege

[00:00:00] **Rénee Santos:** and there was a black gentleman and me and we're both like running toward the entrance of the train and a cop stopped the young black man and I got on the train. This is white privilege.

## [00:00:11] Marker

[00:00:11] **Rénee Santos:** I'm not going to be late for work. And that young man is simply because he's black.

[00:00:15] **Tony Tidbit:** Welcome to a Black Executive Perspective podcast, a safe space where we discuss all matters related to race, especially race in corporate America.

[00:00:28] I'm your host, Tony Tidbit. Let me ask you a question. Have you ever said to somebody, a friend of yours? I'm not a racist. I can't be a racist. You know what? I've heard people say that. I've said it. I'm not a racist. I'm a black guy. How can I be a racist? Matter of fact, my best friend, he's Italian. So I can't be a racist.

[00:00:55] I give to the police union every year. I'm not a racist, right?

## [00:00:59] Understanding Racism and Anti-Racism

[00:00:59] **Tony Tidbit:** [00:01:00] One of the things we hear that a lot, we all say it, but do we really understand what does it mean not to be a racist? More importantly, do we know what anti racism is? Do we understand that?

## [00:01:14] Guest Introduction: Renee Santos

[00:01:14] **Tony Tidbit:** Today, I have a good friend of mine, Renee Santos, who's going to talk about the distinction between being not a racist And anti racism so we can all learn from it.

[00:01:27] So I'm like so excited to have Renee on the show to talk more about this from her experience and hear her story. Renee Santos is a professional stand up comedian and writer who has done a plethora of shows on television as well as in the theater. Currently, she's expanded her portfolio to writing a solo show And doing freelance journalism to expand her creative portfolio and also helping to [00:02:00] elevate every artist's voice.

[00:02:02] Renee Santos, welcome to a black executive perspective podcast.

[00:02:07] **Rénee Santos:** Thank you so much for having me. I'm absolutely honored to be here.

[00:02:11] **Tony Tidbit:** I'm excited. Number one, I haven't seen you in a long time, and for the audience to know Renee and I go back a while, her and her sister and I used to work together and she became family.

[00:02:21] And then I met Renee and we've been one happy family ever since. So it was finally good to see you.

## [00:02:26] Renee's Background and Experience

[00:02:26] **Tony Tidbit:** So tell us a little bit real quickly, where are you from? Where are you living at? What's going on?

[00:02:30] **Rénee Santos:** I'm originally from Massachusetts. I now live in Los Angeles. I lived in New York City with my sister, whom we know together.

[00:02:38] From 2015 to 2020, but now I'm west coast bound. It's 74 degrees here. There's a reason I'm here. It's November 9th, right? Or November 6th. But yeah, so I'm I have always chosen to live in pretty diverse liberal states and communities. So I've been a little bit of my own [00:03:00] proverbial echo chamber myself, but I do my best to expand my horizons by having these conversations.

[00:03:05] So I'm super excited to be here and

[00:03:07] **Tony Tidbit:** yeah. That's awesome. That's awesome. That's awesome. Massachusetts now out in, the California area, you have great weather right now. So things are going good. And obviously, you're in the you're in the industry. So there's things going on and stuff to that nature that hopefully, you can get back into do the things that that I've seen you do.

[00:03:27] I enjoyed seeing you do as well.

[00:03:30] **Rénee Santos:** Yeah, definitely. I appreciate you mentioning that. The good thing about being a multi hyphenate artist is I'm a writer and a journalist and a performer and an actor, but both the, both performance unions were on strike. And so that I had to shift the work that I was able to do, but I'm very grateful because I run this eclectic gamut of artistic pursuits.

[00:03:51] I'm able to fill in the gaps quite well. So I'm grateful.

[00:03:55] **Tony Tidbit:** Hey that's part of being a multidimensional person, right? Is being able to deal with [00:04:00] adversity and then be able to find other ways to move past it and still stay positive and still continue to make things happen here in the world.

[00:04:07] So really excited that you're here. Let me ask you this. And you're going to tell us a lot more about you and anti racism and being a racist. Where are you now? Are you're American? You're tell us a little bit about your racial background.

[00:04:23] **Rénee Santos:** Sure My mother is of Cuban descent. Her family is from Havana and My father is Portuguese.

[00:04:30] He was born in the Azores the islands off the coast of Portugal it's an interesting distinction. I think between Identity and actual race because I didn't find out that I was It's Cuban until I was 16. So I predominantly grew up with this identity that I was white and I didn't even realize I was Latina.

[00:04:50] Till later, I'm also a non Spanish speaking Latina and that's a whole nother thing to unpack about the definition of racially being able to [00:05:00] identify as Latina if you don't speak the language because in a lot of other cultures. The, if you're Korean and you were adopted by a white family, you still get credit for being Korean, right?

[00:05:09] So there's that whole dialogue. So for a long time, I didn't really know how to even articulate that question, or answer that question. What am I? But yeah, so I'm half Latina, half European. My parents have a very strong defense around race versus identity, too, and I think that is systemic in not only our culture, but how I was inadvertently raised.

[00:05:34] In Cuban culture, there's black Cubans and white Cubans, so my mother identifies as a white Cuban. Cuban. I don't know if your audience has ever seen Buena Vista Social Club, but that directly really addresses racism inside of Cuba. It's about a jazz group down there. And so it's, I didn't really know what I was because I'm like I'm Latin, but she's telling me I'm white and then why, what I didn't realize about that is the [00:06:00] push to identify as white was because she defined that as better.

[00:06:05] So she thought she was protecting us by if you lean into this identity, that's a better identity, which is inadvertently. Racist, so I think the seed was planted for me since I was a little girl that something was off. I didn't like how I was being told to tell the world who I was.

[00:06:23] **Tony Tidbit:** Wow.

[00:06:23] I can imagine too, especially, Cuban, Portuguese, right? And one of our earlier episodes, we had Rebecca Nunez, who's the CEO of a company, an advertising agency. And she talked about, we spoke a little bit on it about colorism Within not just the black community, but also the latinx community as well.

[00:06:45] How big that is why is this topic important to you? Let me just paint a picture here. You have been you look white. You identify based on your parents as white. You can walk into any [00:07:00] place. You can pretty much do whatever you want to do. You know what I mean? Within a, from a racial standpoint, in terms of a privileged standpoint.

[00:07:08] Why is this topic important to you?

[00:07:10] **Rénee Santos:** For two reasons. I've witnessed since Black Lives Matter movement really took off that this white fragility of realizing like, That oversensitivity was not necessary. If we honor and know who we are, we can accept that our starting place has certain advantages.

[00:07:30] And in the racial realm, I have some advantages by passing as white.

## [00:07:37] Renee's Realization of White Privilege

[00:07:37] **Rénee Santos:** And I realized, I had this moment in Jersey City, this is going to make me emotional when it really hit me that I had to be a part of the solution. It was raining and there was a black gentleman and me and we were running toward the path train in Jersey City and we both had dark colored hoodies and we wanted to avoid the rain.

[00:07:55] By getting onto the train as quickly as we could, we both flipped up our hoodies and we're [00:08:00] both like running toward the entrance of the train. And a cop stopped the young black man and I got on the train. And I had that moment where I thought, this is it. This is white privilege. I'm not going to be late for work.

[00:08:12] And that young man is simply because he's black. And that bothered me to my core. Something as simple as that. We're literally just running for the train. And he seemed to be a threat. And it was the first time I observed and actually witnessed my, me in my privilege without it being malicious, without it being overt.

[00:08:33] There wasn't anything in my actual actions that was racist. But what I realized is if I defended that oh no, he just got stopped because he was the random guy on the right side of the, he was the one in close proximity to the cop. Like, when people say ignorant stuff like that, I'm like, are you kidding me?

[00:08:49] I'm a white chick. That's why I'm not late for work. Can we not, for a second, stop pretending? And so that, that was part of it, is I realized I'm one of those people that I'm not [00:09:00] hypersensitive, so I could have this conversation, because I felt like I was, I didn't have the fragility part of my white privilege.

[00:09:06] I was willing to be like, yeah. I'm lucky in this area of my life. I'm also grew up as a welfare foster kid. There are other advantages that I did not have. There are, I understand in the world that there are, Black people that grew up in very abundant environments, and that wasn't my experience.

[00:09:22] But I don't need to give this list of one upping who has more advantages. And I felt like the world needed to know that we can all hold the space for each other and that our journeys are very different. And that's, I also, The other reason this was really important to me is as a queer woman, I've been marginalized for very different reasons.

[00:09:42] I know it's not the same thing, but I, it bothered me to see that any marginalized community could marginalize another community. That felt I felt hypersensitive just to that principle. And I thought, There's a Benjamin Franklin quote that I'm going to absolutely butcher, but it's something to [00:10:00] the effect of the justice isn't served until the people who are not affected are just as enraged as the people who are.

[00:10:08] And I have, I've witnessed that just in studying history. It's very true until the people who are not directly affected participate in the solution. Things don't change. Like when I go to gay rights marches in a predominantly gay neighborhood where no, I'm like, nothing's changed. Everybody's already on board here at the gay rights rally.

[00:10:26] We, we in gay Mecca, so it's just we're not reaching any communities by, and so that was the other reason I wanted to participate. But then lastly, I'll say this. I went to a black lives matter rally where I was with another white friend who kept raising our hand. And I had that moment where I was like, girl, this is where we're the allies.

[00:10:48] They're glad we're here, hold up the signs and shut your pie hole. This is not our platform, and so there was an opportunity for me to also speak to non black people to say we are here to [00:11:00] hold this, lovingly hold the space, but we also have to be humble enough. And that's part of the white privilege is this entitlement that everybody wants to hear our voice.

[00:11:08] And I'm like we need to just. I'm going to be here to know we've got you, we support you, but this is not we're holding this platform for you. We're not navigating this platform for you,

[00:11:18] **Tony Tidbit:** listen, I got it. You just said a whole, everything you said in that last, minute or two could be separate podcasts.

[00:11:27] Okay. You went from privilege, which I want to ask you about, you went to, the kid getting. Stopped and you weren't able to go there. You went to queer, you went to welfare foster. You went to a lot of different things, right? Which is awesome. And then you went to hey, this ain't our platform.

[00:11:44] This is just for us to be here and listen and learn, right? Which is all great. Let's back up a little bit because I do want to dive into some of this some of the stuff you just talked about before we go into the non race. I'm not racist versus anti racism. So you talked about [00:12:00] privilege, right? When did you figure out that you had privileges being, a white

[00:12:05] **Rénee Santos:** person?

## [00:12:05] Renee's Reflections on Racism and Identity

[00:12:05] **Rénee Santos:** When I found out that my family from Cuba immigrated all the way basically from Miami up to Massachusetts, and then their kids didn't find out they were Cuban until 16, I was like, That is white privilege. You basically hid as a different race for 16 years. There's no way, Tony, that you would find out you were black when you were 16.

[00:12:28] You know what

[00:12:28] **Tony Tidbit:** I mean? Maybe, I don't, Maybe I don't think so here in the United States, no. But maybe, but no, excellent point. You make an excellent point.

[00:12:39] **Rénee Santos:** Yeah, I definitely think That I, did I answer that question entirely? I feel

[00:12:43] **Tony Tidbit:** like, no, you answered it. I was just, I was stunned because the way you threw it back at me, I was like, you're right.

[00:12:48] I would, so you're a hundred percent right. Let me ask you this. And that's a great reflection on you. A lot of people are in that same predicament. And they don't think they have privilege, right? We [00:13:00] hear, I grew up with nothing. That's why I wanted to back up to the foster welfare thing.

[00:13:04] Tell us a little bit about that when you said, I'm from a foster welfare

[00:13:08] **Rénee Santos:** situation.

## [00:13:09] Renee's Journey Through Foster Care

[00:13:09] **Rénee Santos:** I lived with my biological mother and my sisters and until I was 14. I went into the system my freshman year in high school. And, that's a whole other convolute. In fact, my solo theater performance is about my journey through the foster care system and entering it as a teenager.

[00:13:24] Because that's part of why our system is so broken, is when you're a teenager, you're already scary and damaged, and the system is really not in alignment to elevate those kind of kids. It's we support these babies to be adopted, but once you're a teenager, they give up on you. So that's my journey through that system, is that I did grow up in Cape Cod, Massachusetts.

[00:13:42] I had a lot of privilege, and then it was like this shell shock when there was just a lot of things happening. And, In my home that my, my mother was not really in a position to be able to hold on to us in that window. And I'm being cryptic here, but I also want to honor [00:14:00] her.

[00:14:00] **Tony Tidbit:** No, and I get it.

[00:14:01] I get it. And I appreciate you sharing. I

[00:14:03] **Rénee Santos:** totally get it. So yeah, but what was interesting is when I got into the foster system, that was my nickname by some of the girls in the home, they called me privileged. And they called, that was another thing, oh privilege, Miss Cape Cod, they would push me around, I was harassed, I was bullied.

[00:14:20] I had this one girl in the middle of the night burned me with cigarettes on my back and called me privileged. I've also experienced my privilege be, the contributing factor to how I was abused and by my peers. These were my other foster siblings in this one home. So I think that's also my pull to this is that we still have a story even though we experienced that privilege because in that circumstance, my privilege did not help me.

[00:14:45] It made me so other in that circumstance that it like elevated. How I was treated because they resented me for it for, but we were Children. We were all Children. But so I just thought, I think sometimes [00:15:00] this whole issue around racism, it's not always malice. And that's why we have to have these conversations.

[00:15:05] Sometimes it very much is, but I don't think 100 percent of the time it's so much of it is systemic or generational or we have PTSD from other traumas in our lives. I think these young girls that experience so much trauma, like that was their only way of feeling that their otherness made them more important.

[00:15:24] And so I became the punching bag for that. And I forgive them. I'm a woman in my forties now. It's been many years. I've done a lot of healing around it, but I realized like that was their own stuff. And that's, that is how we heal is that. We do address it. We do say this behavior isn't acceptable anymore, but we also can forgive simultaneously.

[00:15:43] Like both things can exist.

[00:15:46] **Tony Tidbit:** Got it. Got it. And you've gone through a lot. You've, and I'm just based on what you've chatted about here thus far and some of the stuff that you've gone through. You could go the other way to be fair. You could, being in [00:16:00] that foster home and being called privilege and I would imagine these are kids of kids of color who were calling you that you could easily said, you know what?

[00:16:08] They treated me wrong. So I don't like none of them. All right. I'm going to stay away from people of color because of my experience with them as a kid was very hurtful. It was a tough time in my life and. And you could have gone to this in this direction, but you're looking at it from another direction.

[00:16:24] And why is that?

[00:16:25] **Rénee Santos:** I think it's a few things and the girls for clarity Yes, the girls were all non white, but some of them were other latinas and it was they were but they were spanish speaking latinas So that's where the discrimination internally in my own community happens a lot one of the reasons I feel like now when I look back in retrospect, I think when you are raised and taught that you're Your other it can inadvertently create an apathy and it made sense to me why they were angry, like when you are so unseen and invisible, like your [00:17:00] starting place is not going to be the understanding of other people's positions like I can't imagine you would develop a really centered.

[00:17:07] Empathetic position, like we have to think what our foundation is. So even though there was so much of that behavior that I don't think is okay, I'm like, the larger problem is not that individual. There are also conduits of their own knowing, just like some of the accidental racist things I've said in the last 40 years.

[00:17:24] Not at all maliciously, just either came from what I was raised, how I was raised. I look back to being a young girl and watching cops. We briefly spoke about this, but I didn't know. Like I would sit with popcorn and watch black bodies be thrown to the ground. And I thought it was entertainment after school because my mother put it on the TV.

[00:17:44] And then my other white friends came over and we're all watching black people be, arrested. And I'm like, When I look back, I am so disgusted by that behavior that I even, but there was this switch in me where I was like, it grossed me out at a certain [00:18:00] point. I can't tell you definitively what that switch was, but I, at some point in my life, I knew it was wrong.

[00:18:06] And I, but I also, I didn't. Seek it out. I didn't, so when I look back to that behavior that was taught as a human in the world, one of the things I've always tried to do is not overanalyze a position that I cannot relate to. And I think sometimes that is part of white privilege.

[00:18:27] This we believe that we have a definitive rights. Opinion or expertise around every subject, and we become unteachable, and I think because our voices have always mattered, we We can't accept that there are things that we don't understand, and so part of it was that I didn't, there was something that I didn't understand, and Even from witnessing one of the young girls in my foster home put a band aid on.

[00:18:53] And the band aids are, they're skin tone they're white. The actual band aids are supposed to be skin tone. [00:19:00] And I'm thinking, wow as a black person, like you just cut your finger and you are reminded you are other. Because there's not even a band aid that can cover your skin. That is the same thing.

[00:19:11] Crayola used to have crayons and the beige crayon was called skin tone. And I'm like, what, when you buy bras, I'm sorry not to, but it's the same thing. Like you would buy any beige colored bra was called a skin tone. I'm like, what is happening? When it wasn't until later in my life that I noticed just these little things were constantly reminding people that they were other.

[00:19:34] And My otherness didn't come until a little later, so it wasn't like part of my foundation, like even coming out. Yes, I was aware of my otherness, but I was able to center myself and who I was first before I found out that I was other, if that makes

[00:19:51] **Tony Tidbit:** sense. Let me, so all that you've been through.

[00:19:54] Which I love. I didn't know I was Cuban until I was 16. Did you ever in all the things that [00:20:00] you saw and, with the cops, TV show and all these other things that you talked about, did you ever say to yourself, I'm not a racist? Or did you say that to anybody else? I'm not a racist.

## [00:20:13] Renee's Personal Experiences with Racism

[00:20:13] **Rénee Santos:** I have, I have a bit of a confession the time that I used to that, but. I don't know if I'm being defensive or not defensive. There was a time in, when I was in Jersey city and I was on a bus and this group of teenage boys jumped in front of the bus, not in a crosswalk. And the bus.

[00:20:33] The bus driver just slammed on his brakes, I, all the stuff I was reading, all the stuff out of my backpack went underneath the seats of the bus, the whole bus like plummeted forward. And it was just this entitled, like the crosswalk was like three feet away. They could have used the front crosswalk, but it was like this statement and everybody screamed on the bus.

[00:20:52] And all I said was. F and kids. That's all I said. I didn't even see who was in the crosswalk. I didn't [00:21:00] even, I just knew that they were kids, and a woman on the bus said, you're being racist because it was a group of black kids. And I said, I'm not racist. And I remember walking away from that situation.

[00:21:12] I still don't know if I know how to unpack that situation because I'm, I've also been in a car accident where a black gentleman hit me. And when I got pissed, I was like, you asshole. I didn't know who hit me until I got out of the car. So I'm like, are those racist moments? Or do I automatically get the acute B I become accused of being racist simply when I find out who the person is that did the thing.

[00:21:37] So that has always bothered me. Not is everything racism. Like I was just annoyed that my entire backpack was on the floor of the boss. I wasn't trying to attack anybody's character, but because I was white and I got annoyed, I got accused of being racist in that moment.

[00:21:55] **Tony Tidbit:** Let me ask you this. I'm going to play a quick little clip.

[00:21:58] So number one, thanks for sharing that, [00:22:00] right? I'm going to play a quick little clip and I want to get your thoughts on it. One of the

[00:22:04] **Rénee Santos:** most freeing things that white people can do, or actually any human being on the planet could do right now, is to just say, of course I'm racist. Of course I'm racist. If you grew up in a house that spoke French and you as a baby just started laying in your crib, listening to people speak French over you, you wouldn't have to do anything to start gaining a proficiency in the French language.

[00:22:32] You would just speak it because

[00:22:33] **Tony Tidbit:** that's, what's being spoken around you. Our

[00:22:36] **Rénee Santos:** society speaks racism. It has spoken racism since we were born. Of course you are racist. Of course, the idea that somehow this blanket of ideas. Fallen on everyone's head except for yours

[00:22:53] **Tony Tidbit:** is magical thinking it's and it's you so that's from CBS News and it was [00:23:00] You know clip they did a sit down they did about anti racism, right?

[00:23:06] And what she's saying is that we're all racist Because at the end of the day, we live in a racist society, okay? And, the first thing that we need to we need to be able to commit to and look in the mirror and say, I am racist. And, I love the way she first started white people, and then she said, no, all people need to say this.

[00:23:26] Because at the day, I know, black people have had problems with, in certain parts of the country with Korean people. All right. I know, certain Latin X groups have certain problems with other Hispanic Latin X groups. I know we all have racist tendencies. So what's your thoughts on that?

[00:23:42] **Rénee Santos:** I love that clip. And I think as much as I'm not proud to articulate that sentence, I agree with it. I am racist and I. And I hate that. That's why I'm here having this conversation with you.

## [00:23:53] Renee's Commitment to Anti-Racism

[00:23:53] **Rénee Santos:** And for me, when I say anti racism, it's that there's something that needs a [00:24:00] reversal. That's, that is the point of why I'm trying to be anti racist because racism has inadvertently been a part of my experience.

[00:24:08] I don't think I've ever been maliciously, overtly racist, but I agree. It's taught in our society, even from our education system. There was a lot of things I didn't. I didn't know about what black people had experienced. I honestly, my entire childhood, I didn't even know that there were like Massive communities of wealthy black people that's racist.

[00:24:30] No one taught me those human beings walked the planet. Do you know what I'm saying? So there was this weird assumption, but I thought it was like with me because Latin people are also taught we're always broke. So I'm like, yeah, brown and black people, we're all broke. I made this weird, inadvertent Affirmation that brown and black people are always broke.

[00:24:45] Like, all of those little things have planted these seeds. Wow, racism sits in me too,

[00:24:52] **Tony Tidbit:** it sits in all of us. It, because to the things that you just said that you were taught as a young kid, we were taught the same [00:25:00] thing. And, there wasn't a lot of wealthy black people or only, black people in the movies would be pimps and hustlers and slaves.

[00:25:09] You didn't see black doctors. You didn't see black politicians.

## [00:25:12] Understanding Racism Within Us

[00:25:12] Now you do, but not when I was growing up. So when you grow up, when we all grow up in a society, regardless of where you are and as much as we may think, we're not racist, all right? Because you know of, you know how we define it.

[00:25:26] **Tony Tidbit:** At the end of the day, we all have racist tendencies in us, every human being. And I, and white, black people quick say, white people are racist. And I'm, and guess what? I'm not disagreeing with that, right? But black people can be racist too, right? Cuban people can be racist. People of Indian descent can be racist.

[00:25:46] Every group can be racist. So when we say I'm not racist, we're basically saying, we're not being honest with ourselves, right? Because of, words paint pictures. I'm going to play another really quick clip to expound on this some [00:26:00] more. Play clip number two.

## [00:26:03] The Difference Between 'Not Racist' and 'Anti-Racist'

[00:26:03] **Rénee Santos:** Saying I'm not a racist and being anti racist is like two different things.

[00:26:07] When most people think of racism, they think of, let's say what happened to George Floyd, or they think of the KKK, or they think of slavery. And when that is your perception, it's very easy to say I would never do that. I would never do that awful thing, which is valid. But it's more nuanced than that.

[00:26:26] Someone saying I'm not a racist doesn't help the problem. Simply saying, I'm not doing that does not save somebody's life. It's like witnessing someone getting jumped and being like, Hey, I didn't jump him. It's but you also just stood there while he or she got jumped. And being an anti racist is one, getting involved and being like, break it up, stop this.

[00:26:51] And two, speaking out to make sure it never happens again.

[00:26:57] **Tony Tidbit:** What's your thoughts on that, Renee?

## [00:26:58] Personal Experiences with Racism and Anti-Racism

[00:26:58] **Rénee Santos:** I love that clip. This [00:27:00] is why I'm participating in this movement because It was a distinction. I'll tell you another little anecdote of where I felt that I actively was a part of the solution for the first time where I'm an Uber driver on the side.

[00:27:12] And there was a gentleman, he had his ear pods in, a black gentleman in the back of my car. And it was like July 4th and the cops were just doing like the routine checkpoint stopping everybody thing. And when I pulled up the cop asked me in the nicest way, are you okay? And I had that moment where I thought, why wouldn't I be okay?

[00:27:34] Because I have a black passenger who's not even paying attention to me. You know what I mean? He's he's black, he's not a threat.

## [00:27:40] The Power of Speaking Up: A Real-Life Example

[00:27:40] **Rénee Santos:** And it was the first time I had said to the cop, I said, sir, that was racist. Why wouldn't I be okay? He's black, not dangerous. And it was the first time I had said it out loud.

[00:27:49] And then I got scared of how the cop would react to me. And it was just this moment where I don't know why I felt pulled to actually speak out. But I'm like, Because I am a white woman, [00:28:00] I can say this directly to a white cop's face, and this is how I can take my privilege and participate in the solution.

[00:28:07] That man needed to know that even though he seemed like he was nicely checking up on me to see if I was okay, that was a racist statement. To think that I was in trouble, and I had never felt compelled to say, but I had been participating in this conversation with friends, and I think that's the seed had been planted for me too.

[00:28:27] Be a part of that conversation. And that was the first time in my life where I'm like, Oh, this is anti racism. This is an example of it. Cause I actually said something in a very small way. I'm not saying I'm some hero here, but it was the first time that I felt cognizant of these little, just like there are microaggressions for racism, like these little things that we can do that they don't necessarily need to be marches down the street where we can just call people out on this.

[00:28:55] That's when we are part of the solution. And I, but I [00:29:00] also want to do more than just that, I don't want to be the person that's Oh, I had this one spirit, check that box. I got it. You know what I mean? I understand. It's a it's a much larger conversation. I'm a nanny.

[00:29:11] I work for a wealthy white family. There, there are times where I will hear them say stuff where I have to recalibrate them, open their eyes. That's part of it where I'm like, I, these young white. Boys need to grow up like being aware of this and not that I can be like the this beacon of knowledge all the time But whenever I hear them say anything like I make sure that they know that they are being racist Do you know and so that dialogue stops between their peers and the bullying and then behind the scenes?

[00:29:42] We don't have this next generation like reproducing all of this and right But I really liked that I really liked that gentleman's statement of an anti racist person is, they're educating themselves, about these racial issues and challenging these discriminant, discriminatory policies [00:30:00] and working toward an actual solution.

## [00:30:02] The Importance of Education in Fighting Racism

[00:30:02] **Rénee Santos:** Like I listened, I've listened to your podcast, I listened to a whole podcast about reparations because I had heard the term thrown around and I had that moment where I thought, you know what, I don't know a lot about this discussion. About the discussion, but I was like I don't feel like if somebody came up to me today and was like, what's your opinion on reparations?

[00:30:22] I could participate in that conversation. So I listened to this podcast. I learned so much, and it like really got that the wheel spinning. And then I was on a hike with my right friend who was like, reparations should just be. Give them money for education. And I was, oh my God, for six miles, I was like reiterating that podcast.

[00:30:43] And I was just so upset about, because finally I understood, like I had been educated enough to fight against the discussion. And and I thought I can't be a part of the solution if I'm in my little like echo chamber. So I feel like I'm in a place in my [00:31:00] life where a lot of it is I'm a sponge and I'm just educating myself about what I didn't know.

[00:31:05] And

[00:31:07] **Tony Tidbit:** but I think that's awesome. I think that, sorry about that, but I think that's awesome that, and that's the distinction between the two, right? Is saying I'm not a racist is basically. Not doing anything right versus anti racism is getting involved, right? And that's the example that you provided here, right?

[00:31:26] Is that with the cop who pulled you? When you were as an uber driver pulled you over and says, hey, are you okay? Because you had a black passenger you could easily just said yeah, i'm, okay and left it at that but you took it to the next step. You made him aware like hey He's not a criminal. Just because he's black and I'm white doesn't mean that he's doing anything, right?

[00:31:46] And a lot of times we don't do that. We don't take it. We just want to say, I'm not a racist. And I love the example my friend gave in that clip. He's you seeing somebody get jumped, but you're basically saying I didn't jump them. I'm [00:32:00] not versus saying, Hey, stop that. Break up that fight.

[00:32:03] And trying to not make it happen again. So I love the, I love you sharing your experience with that.

[00:32:10] **Rénee Santos:** Can I add something?

## [00:32:10] Microaggressions: Subtle Forms of Racism

[00:32:10] **Rénee Santos:** I had a situation where I was having lunch and a lady struck a conversation with me and she was looking at me funny. And she starts talking to me.

[00:32:19] Long story short, I tell her that, I, Oh you look familiar. You on a television show? And I'm like, Oh yeah, I am. Oh, are you on this show? I'm like, Oh yeah, I am. And then she asked me about my background. And I told her I was Puerto Rican and she's Oh, and you're

[00:32:31] **Tony Tidbit:** successful.

[00:32:35] I'm like, no,

[00:32:39] **Rénee Santos:** it's not. Like even when you present it to some people, sometimes they're such in denial that they're racist.

[00:32:46] **Tony Tidbit:** They don't even know what

[00:32:47] **Rénee Santos:** they're saying. It comes out in these niceties. I experienced this recently too, as a nanny, because I personally drive a 2019 Ford Fiesta. And I normally drive the kids around with it, but when I have these little white children in my [00:33:00] car that, they're brunettes, so they could be mine.

[00:33:03] I get out of, I get out of the car in a parking lot. These were, this was two weeks apart. And this woman who was parking next to me is like, Oh, your kids are so cute. And I was like and I don't have time to have the cold conversation. So I just say thank you and move on with my life. A week later, sometimes I drive my boss's car, which is like a spaceship.

[00:33:21] It's this like BMW thing, like it yells at you when you leave your phone in the car. It like, when I sit in the, when my boss drives it, there's like a programming for all the sitting and the seating in the rear view mirrors. When I sit in it, it's like programmed to my butt and the whole thing moves and the rear view mirrors adjust like this car is crazy.

[00:33:39] So at any rate. I'm borrowing his car that day, and I go into a Whole Foods parking lot. I get out of this fancy BMW with these two white kids, and Cole one of the little boys, sorry he runs around the car, and this woman says to me, Oh don't run, listen to your nanny. And I had that moment where I'm like, [00:34:00] Oh, because I'm a brown woman getting out of a fancy BMW, I must be the help.

[00:34:05] And when I got out of the Ford Fiesta, they assumed the same child was mine. And I'm like, that's racist. That's racist, right? Like those little things where it's like the woman was just like making sure that the boy didn't run off. And it doesn't, it seems so innocuous, but it's those moments where I realized like.

[00:34:28] I, not only am I part of the anti racist conversation, sometimes I have these moments, even as a Latina, where I am discriminated against in these little subtle ways. And yeah, it's really amazing because it's not, it doesn't seem unkind when people are being racist every time. Exactly.

[00:34:48] **Tony Tidbit:** And look, at the end of the day, we know it's all ignorance, right?

[00:34:51] And those things can be fixed. Okay. So we, so the key is like I learned this a long time ago, not, somebody who [00:35:00] is alcoholic. Okay. When are they on their way to being cured when they say I'm an alcoholic? All right. Yeah. Halfway there then. First, you have to admit that you have a problem, right?

[00:35:13] So it's okay to say, Hey, you know what? Yes, I have some racist tendencies. There's things I don't know. I may think certain things because I saw it on cops or I, I read it in a book or my grandma Jones told me that these people act this way. So that's what I believe. Yes, we have those tendencies.

[00:35:33] But once you say you get away from Transcribed by https: otter. ai I'm not a racist, versus yes I am. However, I can get better and I wanna move to anti-racism, then we're on our way to becoming a better country, a better group of people, and we can all now see people for who they are versus what we think they are.

[00:35:55] I wanna play one final clip to this point, and I want to get your thoughts on it. Play. [00:36:00] Abram,

[00:36:02] **Narrator:** I think in order to define. Anti racist, I must talk about the more popular term, not racist, which stems from the phrase, I am not racist, which stems from when anyone in this society is charged with being racist, their response Is I'm not racist, whether that person is from the far right or far left, across the ideological board when people are charged with saying and doing something that's racist, their responses, I'm not racist or some say, I can't be racist.

[00:36:34] I can't be racist because I'm a person of color because I'm a liberal because I have a black friend, so on and so forth. And so historically the phrase not racist, the identity Of not racist has been expressed by eugenicists has been expressed by Jim Crow segregationist has been expressed by white [00:37:00] nationalists, even white nationalists who are writing a manifesto to then go and shoot at dozens of people at a Walmart in El Paso, Texas, right in their manifesto.

[00:37:11] I'm not racist.

[00:37:14]

[00:37:14] **Tony Tidbit:** So think about that. What's your thoughts to that?

[00:37:17] **Rénee Santos:** It's poignant.

## [00:37:18] The Role of Love and Understanding in Anti-Racism

[00:37:18] **Rénee Santos:** And I think there's a passivity to not being racist, like it's just, you're not a not somebody who's not racist is not overtly participating in racist behaviors, but they're not doing anything to actually dismantle.

[00:37:35] And I think any defense, defensive response to any position usually means you are that thing, including like being an alcoholic. If you're drinking a glass of wine, you're just a regular person. Someone's what are you drinking? But if you're like, I'm not drinking. And I didn't drink yesterday.

[00:37:49] I, this is the first drink I've had this week. If you start to get defensive, you're probably an alcoholic, so it's the same sort of thing. I'm like, if you have just listed off all the black friends that you [00:38:00] have, you're really racist.

[00:38:04] **Tony Tidbit:** And I love what he was saying, too, because think about it, and every time I listened to that clip, I started laughing.

[00:38:10] He was like, look, white nationalists say, I'm not racist. People, writing manifestos about to go shoot up a Walmart with a bunch of people of color in there saying, I'm not racist, right? So it doesn't matter. We all say it, right? But our actions doesn't speak that. So we got to get out of that. We are all racist.

[00:38:30] I love what you just got been saying. I love the alcohol the, I got five black friends when you start going there. But we all do it. So talk to me a little bit.

## [00:38:40] The Journey to Becoming Anti-Racist

[00:38:40] **Tony Tidbit:** Let's expand on the anti racism part. How do people change

## [00:38:43] Moving from 'Not Racist' to 'Anti-Racist'

[00:38:43] **Tony Tidbit:** ? How do they make that pivot from? Now I understand, hopefully I understand, we all have racist tendencies, right?

[00:38:53] And I can look in the mirror and I can be okay with that. How do I make that, how do people make that [00:39:00] pivot in terms of first acknowledging and then moving to the anti racism side, which is action and stuff to that nature?

[00:39:07] **Rénee Santos:** I think. Being anti racist is a proactive stance, but I also will say that I think there's a level of education that has to happen, and for, in my experience I don't know that you can entirely participate in the solution without an education around What is going on?

[00:39:24] So I do believe that behaviors like listening to podcasts, participating in these conversations with your friends, educating yourself about the history around systemic racism, it allows you to then participate in the conversation in an educated way. And then you're able to challenge discriminatory policies.

[00:39:45] But if you don't know what the discriminatory policy is, how can you be a part of that solution? So I do think there is a window in which we have to be able to be a sponge before we can actually. Go out there because I think sometimes it's a mistake that young people make they make rash decisions [00:40:00] around certain things that are uneducated That can sometimes participate in the problem Like for example like that young white girl that went to the Black Lives Matter like her heart was in the right place like she Was so upset, but she didn't she hadn't listened to enough discussions around the fact that wasn't our platform There was a level of ignorance in which she was so proactive that I think we've got to listen.

[00:40:24] We have to have a book on our nightstand that's not just about our personal experience and hearing about other things that happen in the world. And I, but I also feel like people can disillusion themselves, like changing your profile picture on Instagram to Black Lives Matter doesn't make you anti racist.

[00:40:43] That just means you change your profile picture. So it's stuff like that where I people tell me they're like, yeah, but I don't even have my. Face up there and I'm like, are you kidding me?

[00:40:54] **Tony Tidbit:** So number one, educate themselves, right? That's what you're saying. Educate number two, [00:41:00] and again, some people may want to go out and try to change a policy. Some people may not, right? So what can they do just in their own spear, their own? How can they influence or make a change in their own neighborhood or their with their friends or family?

[00:41:16] What would you suggest? I

[00:41:18] **Rénee Santos:** think these smaller discussions, I've shared some examples in my experience because I think that's the nature of changing life in general. Like sometimes you're a single mom that's imparting wisdom to one individual child. Other times you're a. famous artist that has a massive platform that's reaching millions, but the intention is still the same.

[00:41:34] And we don't all need to have a massive platform to be a part of the solution in any area. So I think having these conversations to your point, if somebody says something that's racist, lovingly educating people. But for me, I think. The other thing about the shift is coming from a place of love. I think one of the reasons why these conversations are hard to have is because there can be an attack and people [00:42:00] do not change from shame.

[00:42:02] And I've learned this in my life. If you make somebody wrong first, that's how you lead in. You're a horrible person. You shouldn't have done this. And then you're like, so by the way, do you want to participate in the solution? If you talk to a small child, our brains were not built that way to change from shame.

[00:42:18] So I think we have to find a way to have this discussion to be like, look, these are these little racist things that we all have. And let's, can we recalibrate as a community? And yeah, I think that's sometimes what is missing in the conversation is can we Sit in a room with somebody who's in conflict with our opinion and love them into the solution.

[00:42:41] **Tony Tidbit:** Love it. Matter of fact, you just, so I want to hear your thoughts after this final clip.

## [00:42:47] The Power of Uncomfortable Conversations

[00:42:47] **Tony Tidbit:** The best way

[00:42:48] **Rénee Santos:** to get over stuff is to talk about it. This stuff will never change until people become comfortable having these uncomfortable conversations on both sides. You have, they're not comfortable conversations.

[00:42:59] I've had to [00:43:00] have conversations with people in my family and it's. And I'm in an interracial relationship and, having the conversation is not the easiest thing to do, but you have to do it.

[00:43:11] **Tony Tidbit:** And that's basically what you're saying, right? Is that we need to come together and just have these conversations and don't judge people, love them through it, right?

[00:43:20] Love them through it. I, there's things, as much as people think I'm the host of a Black Executive Perspective podcast and we talk about race. I'm not a race expert. Okay, I've made a ton of mistakes and probably will still make a ton of mistakes. Okay, I'm here to put a platform together so we can come together and have conversations so I can learn from a Rene Santos.

[00:43:44] I can learn from all my guests on here. I've learned from people just in general on a Thousand things that I knew nothing of I've misspoke. I've said things that people are like, oh my god I remember i'll tell you a really quick thing. This I was working at his company and we were [00:44:00] doing some We were putting together.

[00:44:01] A dei thing and I sent the guy in charge of dei I sent him an email say hey, man, I want to get together so we can have a quick powwow Okay, and then he emailed me back I said, Tony, by the way, just so you know, pow wow, he's a, is a microaggression. All right. And he sent me a list of the different microaggression terms.

[00:44:21] I didn't know. Okay. I had no clue. Okay. And I said, Hey man, thank you for sending that to me. Educate me. So we're going to, that's going to happen. We're going to make mistakes. The only way that we're able to get past them is to have uncomfortable conversations, be willing to learn, to your point, right? And then fight racism.

[00:44:46] In other words, be anti racist. So if you hear something or you see something, try to educate the person with love versus beating them over their head and be an active participant. In terms of trying to change [00:45:00] things.

[00:45:00] **Rénee Santos:** Yeah, I absolutely agree with that. I think we have to challenge our own biases in order to create this equitable society But in order to do that we have to ask these tough questions and we have to be willing to be wrong and or yeah ask something as Simple as what you asked, with the powwow example I had a conversation, I have a friend, Brian, who's from Jamaica, and he hates when people say African American, he's we're not all from Africa, like my family was born and raised in Jamaica and I asked him, I said, I've been taught that Just saying this, a black person that's ignorant, so I was taught the not racist thing to do is to say African American, it was politically correct.

[00:45:42] But then it hit me that I'm like, here's my black friend that's not African ah, what do I say? So I just asked him, I'm like what is the appropriate, can I say as a white person this book, or if I'm describing somebody, my acting, I have an acting partner. the scene partner. And I'm like, can I say when they're like, who's your scene partner?

[00:45:58] And I'm like and there's a [00:46:00] few different guys in class. And I'm like, but there's only one black guy in class. I'm like the tall black guy, handsome. They're like, Oh yeah. Yeah. Jason's his name. And I'm just describing him to place like, so people know who my scene partner is, but I would get nervous.

[00:46:13] Can I say my black scene partner, Jason, or am I racist by making that statement? So it's those kinds of conversations where I asked my Jamaican friend, I'm like, am I allowed to say that? And not a lot of people would even ask that question. What is appropriate in a very simple conversation like that.

[00:46:30] And I'm like, we have to be willing to ask even things like that. Totally

[00:46:35] **Tony Tidbit:** agree. Totally agree. Final thoughts.

## [00:46:37] Final Thoughts on Racism and Anti-Racism

[00:46:37] **Tony Tidbit:** What do you want to leave the audience here, Renee?

## [00:46:43] Final Thoughts on Anti-Racism

[00:46:43] **Rénee Santos:** I want to leave the audience with, I think It is important to be interested in the things that don't directly affect us, It all affects us like not to sound cliche. We are the human race and I we must [00:47:00] look for our similarities and not our differences to really change the world. And there's, I think we can honor both our separatism and our collectivity by having these conversations and.

[00:47:14] I came on here today because I wanted, I want to be a part of the solution and whatever way that is of being service, being of service to the larger group. But I think ultimately when we are of service to others, we elevate our own consciousness. So it ends up being mutually beneficial.

[00:47:31] **Tony Tidbit:** Guess what?

[00:47:32] You are part of the solution. We really excited. I'm so thankful that you came here today to talk about this topic, which is a difficult topic. But you made it very easy to talk about. And, one of the big things is that, you used yourself as an example. Okay. And a lot of times we're afraid to do that.

[00:47:51] So Renee Santos, I want to thank you a lot. You're just a great human being. You love your fellow human being and we hopefully this [00:48:00] podcast or you're appearing on this podcast today touches somebody where they can basically, learn from this and move forward. So thanks a lot. I love you a lot.

[00:48:08] And obviously we want you to come back on at some point so we can, talk about some other topics as well.

[00:48:15] **Rénee Santos:** I would love that. Thank you, Tony. Have an awesome day.

[00:48:19] **Tony Tidbit:** Thank you. I appreciate it. So hopefully today you enjoyed, Renee Santos talking about the distinction between non racist and being anti racist.

[00:48:29] Renee did a really good job in terms of sharing her own experiences. How she grew up and some of the things that she went through and how she had to, identify, learn her own identity. And, when it came to race, more importantly, she had to look in the mirror and really do a self assessment in terms of.

[00:48:47] Where she fits into the whole ecosystem when it comes to race. And then more importantly, how she could be change her mindset in terms of being anti racist. So a couple of things here that I took out of [00:49:00] this number one. Listen, you may disagree with what we talked about today. We're all racist.

[00:49:06] We all have some type of race racist tendency, so we can say we're not racist and we got this friend, that friend, but at the end of the day, we have some type of racist idea or pushback against some type of group. So first we gotta admit that. Then number two, as Renee talked about, we have to sit once.

[00:49:24] We admit that we have to educate ourselves and be willing. To be able to sit back and listen and learn from other human other human beings and get uncomfortable in terms of being able to listen. And then more importantly, be able to put things into action to be a better human being. And then finally being complicit.

[00:49:47] Is no longer an option here, right? Either you are sitting on the fence or you're actively participating in terms of trying to change the narrative and trying to become [00:50:00] part of the solution. So anti racism is about getting involved. Yes. Can you write your congressman? Absolutely. Can you do a lot of these things?

[00:50:08] Yes. But you don't even have to go that far. You can just tell grandma, you can't say that at the Thanksgiving table about other people. You can see somebody else being bullied or your friends at work who are saying racist jokes. Hey, guys, don't do that. That's not right. Just those little bitty things make things a lot better for all of us.

[00:50:27] And that's how you become, you come from. I'm not being a racist to being anti racist. So today's tidbit, race and racism is a reality that so many of us grow up learning just to deal with. But if we ever hope to move past it, it can't just be people of color to deal with it. It's up to all of us, black, white, Hispanic, Asian, Jewish, everyone, no matter how well meaning we think we might be.

[00:50:58] To do the honest, [00:51:00] uncomfortable work of rooting it out. And that's by Michelle Obama. So hope you enjoy this episode of A Black Executive Perspective. Give us a rating wherever you listen to this podcast. Let us know how you like it. If you haven't subscribed, subscribe. You can follow A Black Executive Perspective on all our social platforms, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, LinkedIn, TikTok, at TonyTidbitBEP.

[00:51:32] For my guests, Renee Santos, AA, who's our executive producer, I'm Tony Tidbit. We talked about it. And we're out.

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