Hazel Part one

[00:00:00] Ross: Hi there, and a very warm welcome to Season 6, Episode 16 of PeopleSoup. It's Ross McIntosh here.

[00:00:07] Hazel: When you discover something that can help people to be human, and to just navigate the challenges of being human, it isn't right, is it, that you keep that to yourself and that you, that you guard it. I think that, every act practitioner that I have, have met has been, yeah, so generous and so, so much part of this movement to share, those techniques with other people.

[00:00:33] Ross: Peasoopers, this week I chat with Hazel Anderson Turner.

[00:00:37] Hazel is a business psychologist and mindset coach specializing in resilience and leadership. she's also a podcast co host at Coaching Unpacked, and author of the book, Coaching Through Burnout.

[00:00:49] Hazel's people soup ingredients are flexibility, values led action, being of service, with a healthy sprinkling of humor. You'll hear Hazel talk about her unusual career path, including what led her to leave one organization. You'll also hear her talk about her work with leaders and dysfunctional teams, as well as her pioneering coaching work during the pandemic.

[00:01:22] For those of you who are new to PeopleSoup, welcome. It's great to have you here. We aim to provide you with the ingredients for a better work life, from behavioral science and beyond. For those of you who are regular Peasoopers, thanks for tuning in again. We love it that you're part of our community. A quick scoot over to the news desk.

[00:01:41] I have some new offerings in 2025. My small group supervision program, For those of you using ACT in the workplace has launched, thanks to Cohort 1 for a great first session. I'm also planning an open course with Dr.

[00:01:55] Paul Flaxman To people who are interested in navigating their [00:02:00] working lives more effectively, considering what matters and what might be getting in the way in terms of being the person they'd really like to be. More news on that soon. Finally, would anyone like a PeopleSoup bookmark? My dad, Big G, is poised to send your bookmark anywhere in the world.

[00:02:16] All we need is your postal address. So let's crack on. For now, get a brew on and have a listen to the first part of my chat with Hazel Anderson Turner.

[00:02:26]

[00:02:30] Ross: Hazel Anderson Turner, welcome to People's Soup.

[00:02:33] Hazel: Oh, thank you so much for having me.

[00:02:36] Ross: Oh, well, it's a delight to have you here and a delight to see you. Now, Hazel, you know I have a research department, and I'm going to share with you what they've discovered about you. And remember, they don't always get everything right. They've been on a winning streak recently, but just pin back your ears just in case there's any factual inaccuracies.

[00:02:57] So it says here. Hazel Anderson Turner is a business psychologist and a mindset coach resilience and leadership. Hazel has over 15 years of experience in organizational development and has worked with a range of service providers and large corporations, including Hampshire Fire and Rescue Service and Facebook.

[00:03:17] One of her proudest and most rewarding achievements to date has been leading a team of coaches providing resilience coaching to the NHS during the global pandemic. How are we doing so far?

[00:03:28] Hazel: Yeah, that's not bad.

[00:03:29] Ross: Okay, good, good. Sounds promising. Hazel has degrees. She has a degree in management science, psychology, and a master's degree in occupational psychology.

[00:03:42] You like a bit of learning.

[00:03:43] Hazel: I do.

[00:03:45] Ross: And just to reinforce that liking a bit of learning, hazel also holds certificates in business and personal coaching, ACT, appreciative inquiry, action learning sets, and is a qualified mindfulness teacher, as well as having a qualification as a personal trainer [00:04:00] and fitness instructor. Blimey, I'm just exhausted reading those. Tell me about the personal trainer and fitness instructor bit, Hazel.

[00:04:08] Hazel: Oh. I can't believe you spotted that. Um, so, I I was really into well being. So what was it? I was in my early 30s before I had my daughter and I had this idea. I'd always wanted to start my own business. So I had my idea that I would, I, cause I loved exercise and running, and so I thought I would combine psychology with physical health and, do a qualification of personal training so that I could, do something that combined the two in a kind of practical way.

[00:04:42] and. Then I have my daughter. And it all kind of went out the window. Uh, but yeah, I still love, I still love exercise and being outside and yeah.

[00:04:54] Ross: Well, I think anyone who follows you on the socials will notice that love of exercise. And serious, serious love of exercise, folks. I noticed, I think it was a half marathon last

[00:05:04] Hazel: Oh yeah, that was hideous. Absolutely. Honestly, I mean anyone that knows Brighton Um, that, yeah, the risk of getting, you know, the wind on that day, isn't it? And it was late February, and I had obviously gone off too quickly, and then I hit that last 5k where you turn in Hove, and just got hit by this wall of, of wind and rain.

[00:05:30] And honestly, all of the official photos are me crying. Actually crying.

[00:05:36] Ross: Awww.

[00:05:37] Hazel: So, um, yeah. And I did say never again. And then this year I've signed up for an Ultra in July. But I've got it in my mind that it'll be a walk run, take a picnic, you know, make an all day thing of it. This, you know, it's just it's just hours on your feet, isn't it?

[00:05:56] Rather than a race. [00:06:00] Mmm.

[00:06:01] Ross: here. It gives us a glimpse into your skills as a coach. And I hear you about the seafront in Brighton. I used to live in Brighton and used to cycle along the coast to places like Worthing and all sorts around there. And there'll be times when I was thinking. Gosh, I'm going so fast.

[00:06:22] I'm really improving as a cyclist. And then I would turn around to come home, and it would be the wind. And I just used to grimace and keep repeating this mantra of, The wind is your friend. It's developing you.

[00:06:38] Hazel: Did that work?

[00:06:39] Ross: No. No. I still was in great pain and anguish, but I usually made it home. There's more, Hazel. To top it all, Hazel is an author, and we'll be discussing her book a bit later.

[00:06:55] And the book is called Coaching Through Burnout. Now the research department, it's not so much research, but it's a confession from the research department, really, Hazel. They are obsessed with your dog, who I believe is called Luca, and if I've got this right, is a cock a doodle poo.

[00:07:15] Hazel: He's a cockapoo. Yeah.

[00:07:17] Ross: Oh! Is that my misunderstanding?

[00:07:22] Hazel: the breeder that we bought him for, from, is called, I think called Cock a doodle doo. But yeah.

[00:07:29] Ross: Ah, so a cock, because I've never heard of a cock a doodle poo, and I thought, oh gosh, right, I'll just write this down, but it's a cock a poo. Now, this is less research, but more of a plea, Hazel, because we were reflecting on this, and we thought, please can you take Luca to Crufts? I'm not sure if there is an adorable category, but I think he'd be pretty well fitted to that category.

[00:07:56] And also, what I would personally love to see, is you know when they're [00:08:00] showing the dogs and the judges go, take your dog for a run round the circle. I can just picture you, I think you have the style capabilities to carry this off, where you're gently trotting round with Luca. Looking fabulous. And that's just something I would love to see.

[00:08:20] Hazel: Yeah. Well, I think maybe we need a bit more training. I think anyone that's got a cockapoo knows that they like to do this strange rotation around you. So I think it would actually look like a bit of a dance because he's going round me, I'm passing the lead around the back. So yeah, I mean, it could look very stylish.

[00:08:39] Ross: Or maybe, if not crafts, maybe Britain's got talent.

[00:08:42] Hazel: yeah, yeah. I'm open.

[00:08:46] Ross: But how is, how is Luca? And,

[00:08:53] Hazel: had totally forgotten about the puppy stage and I thought, this is going to be fine. I do a lot of work from home. my partner's, you know, away quite a lot. But, uh, this, this will be fine. And, yeah, it was just like having a baby again. And again, I, I, you know, I chose a Cocker Poo knowing that they were high energy and very playful and, um, yeah, and I'm surprised How much attention he wants, but he is, yeah, he's absolutely beautiful and, um, he's got, yeah, he's got a lovely, lovely temperament.

[00:09:25] Um, but it's, yeah, they're a lot of work.

[00:09:27] Ross: and worth

[00:09:29] Hazel: Yeah.

[00:09:30] Ross: Look at that face. Look at him after his first haircut. Now, Hazel, I've, I've talked a little bit about some of your achievements, your, your qualifications and your passions, but I wonder if you could start to expand on that a bit for us so we can get to know you a bit.

[00:09:46] I'm thinking maybe if you could give us like maybe a couple of pivotal moments in your career to date where you've really paused to think where you're going to go next. [00:10:00] Absolutely.

[00:10:00] Hazel: Now I know that you and I are both very much into values and those, those points in our career where our values came a knocking. so before I get to that point, I have to tell you, my first job was, um, in the merchant Navy. Now, my partner finds this hilarious, the thought of being in the merchant Navy.

[00:10:24] Um, and after that, I went to. clinical research, you know, the logical step. Uh, and while I was there, and I was studying psychology on the side, and I had this moment where I was, I was in clinical research because I wanted to make a difference. The company that I worked for was very, finance focused.

[00:10:47] So we would get emails saying how much profit had been made, you know, for the people who had shares in the company. And we were working, you know, very long hours. And I'd emailed the HR department to say, that I wanted to run a charity event. for the, a charity related to the drug that I was working on and.

[00:11:11] I was told, no, um, we don't like forcing charity on our employees. And you know, you have those moments going, I don't know if my values are really aligned with this organization or maybe this line of work. And, um, yeah, so that in that moment I, I suddenly thought. I need to go and do something else.

[00:11:32] And that's how I ended up, in local government. I went to be a youth worker, and then to subsidize my income, I started working in the training department of, adult services and. That was how I got into the whole kind of adult learning space. so at the time, again, you know, you have these moments, don't you?

[00:11:55] I'd, I'd had the whole driving to work and I worked in clinical research, you know, sitting [00:12:00] in the car park, crying, you know, you know, when you just feel like you're not in the right place, but you don't know where to go. And, you know, my instinct was to try, To be a youth worker, that, that didn't work out.

[00:12:12] but yeah, I found myself on a path that took me into a place, you know, for me, so another one of my values is service. So to work within, the public sector has always been something that has really appealed to me. and, and so that was kind of the step into that space.

[00:12:30] Ross: hmm. I love to hear this sort of moment, thank you for sharing it, when you were in the clinical research organization and they declined your wish to, to raise some money. sort of, was that kind of the, the straw that

[00:12:48] Hazel: Yeah, I think so. I think it was probably the first time when, you know, I've had a real flashing light, values light, when it was so obvious that what was important to me wasn't important to the organization that I was working for. and it was enough to push me to, I actually resigned before I had a job to go to.

[00:13:07] It was so apparent to me that this wasn't where I was supposed to be. And I was in my twenties, I didn't have a mortgage, I didn't have children. So, so, you know, I could, take that kind of step.

[00:13:17] Looking for a sign

[00:13:17] Hazel: But yes, I think it, there was obviously other things going on, but it was so clear to me. And that doesn't happen, I don't think, often.

[00:13:24] Often we're looking for those signs, aren't we? Those big, we want the big sign to say, this is where you're supposed to be or this is where you're not supposed to be. and I think that's one of the only times in my life where I kind of remember it being that obvious. So

[00:13:38] Ross: And I sense a curiosity there as well. Would that be fair to say? You, you then went on to try youth work. Well, first of all, you started in, in the Merchant Navy. Can I ask, can I ask what, what, what led you to that career?

[00:13:53] Hazel: so I left university and, uh, I knew I didn't want to go home and I knew that I loved the [00:14:00] sea. Me and my boyfriend at the time and I just picked Southampton. I didn't realize that Southampton didn't have any beaches I just picked I just picked a city. It looked industrial. I thought you know, we can get you know some jobs there And that was the job that came up that really interests me.

[00:14:15] Again, it was in the, in the training department. So there was something going on there, you know, where I was like, Ooh, I'm interested in, in learning generally. but I got to work, yeah, with cadets and, um, yeah. And I got to go to Spain to go and see the, to see our fleet of ships. So yeah, it was,

[00:14:34] Ross: Wow. Wonderful. What a, what a, what a start. And then what else? Can you think of any other? What, some of those key moments that, that really stick in your mind? Um,

[00:14:46] Hazel: is the one that you, your research team, um, mentioned earlier. Which was what happened. During COVID for me. So I had, I've been running my business probably for three years and most of the work that I was doing was, associate work in leadership development. So I was, I was known for, someone that was really good with just dysfunctional teams.

[00:15:11] So I'd get sent to different places, um, to work with different teams. And I did a little bit of coaching. and had started working with ACT and, and using it within, um, like resilience training sessions. And when COVID hit in March 2020, I had a connection already with an NHS trust, and they said, you know, would you be up for putting a team of coaches together to support our staff with, with resilience?

[00:15:43] Uh, and. So I did, and then sat there in my cupboard, and just did coaching session, coaching session, coaching session, um, one after another. And, I mean, you know what, what kind of time, it was a difficult [00:16:00] time, and it was, it was difficult, I think, it taught me a lot. I think about emotional discomfort and I'm sure we'll come on to that later, but holding that guilt because I did feel really guilty because I was there safe in a room, you know, away from, the most challenging places, but trying to support using my skills, as best I could.

[00:16:24] And I went from, you know, like I say, probably defining myself more as a business psychologist and more as, you know, someone that worked, with teams and with leaders to suddenly a coach and, and a coach that used ACT as my primary. approach and suddenly as well, you know, going from maybe four coaches a month to four a day or, or six a day, uh, that's where I developed my proficiency, I guess that's where I developed, you know, I got so much practice because it was again, you know, one after the other and that led me to then. Joe Oliver, a couple of years later, uh, who had trained me in ACT and say, Hey, you know, there's definitely something in this using ACT for coaching. Why don't we start offering some, you know, some training to, to other coaches? And then that led me to the, you know, the, the group of trusts contacting me about burnout.

[00:17:25] So obviously this whole resilience thing was like, Hmm, we're, we're still not feeling very resilient. Everyone's exhausted. We're all, you know, burnout is now the thing. And, and that's what then led me to get. Into that world of burnout and to think, Hey, you know, there is, there is a place for coaching here.

[00:17:43] There is a really strong place, not just for delivering professional coaching, but also for supporting people to develop their skills. You know, that leader is coach, type approach. There's definitely something in that. And then obviously that led me [00:18:00] eventually to write the book.

[00:18:02] Ross: thank you. And I really see your value shine through that, this value, particularly this value for me, I'm seeing that of being of service for that extraordinary time, Just take a step back. You were talking a bit earlier about being, being known for your work with dysfunctional teams. How did you find that? I'm curious.

[00:18:27] Hazel: Well, I think the reason that I ended up getting into psychology, so obviously studying management science, you know, the posh business studies, um, studying that first. And I just became fascinated by what happens to humans when you put them in teams in an organization. It's to me, it is fascinating, particularly when you put power in there.

[00:18:49] And so I think the reason why I was someone that became a bit known for that was because I was quite fearless around it in the sense I think a lot of facilitators are quite scared by, you know, if there's a strong leader who is having a big influence on the team, or you've got clashes in personality within the team, whereas for me, I, yeah, I find it so interesting and I think finding ways to find common ground and to support people to communicate.

[00:19:25] And again, I think we're back to values, but, but that piece around. Finding that human connection, because I think, so I haven't made this connection before, but I always was interested when I worked in adult services and I did a lot of work around supporting, care homes that specialized in dementia care.

[00:19:44] And I always found it fascinating that we were teaching compassion to. People who were caring for people with dementia. And I was like, this is, how, how is this, how has this happened? Because I swear [00:20:00] that you would, you wouldn't go into that industry. You don't go into it for the money, do you? You go into that industry because you care about people and because you're compassionate.

[00:20:07] But something happens to people where they, The, the context that they're working in disconnects them for some reason. For some people from being as compassionate as they could be. And so I think, you know, learning about kind of what happens to humans in different contexts, then when I was running my own business and looking at teams and looking at what happens to leaders and what happens to people within teams, it's the same kind of thing.

[00:20:39] People don't go into teams to be intentionally destructive

[00:20:39] Hazel: We, you know, we don't, I don't believe that people intentionally. You know, go into a team to be destructive or to, to, to fall out with people. There's just something around what happens to our humanness when we're put in groups and within particular contexts and when we're put under pressure. And, and I think probably my acceptance of humanness. That was probably the development of it, and probably, yeah, enabled me to let go of a lot of shoulds around, and judgement, maybe?

[00:21:15] Ross: Mmm. I love the way you describe it as a disconnect. They can become a disconnect once adults start working together as a, in a team. They can become disconnected from their own. kind of humanity.

[00:21:28] Hazel: Yeah, and I think a lot of it is about protection, so You know, when we're looking at burnout and one of the symptoms of burnout being cynicism and detachment, again, when I'm talking about that, I'm talking about when your values are actually hurting you because you're caring a lot and the caring is hurting.

[00:21:49] When people are in situations where they don't feel safe

[00:21:49] Hazel: So understandably you start to withdraw and you start to move back. And I think we see when people are in situations where they don't feel safe. We start to put up different [00:22:00] barriers, we start to use survival mechanisms that have worked for us in different contexts previously, whether that's childhood, school, you know, different organizations.

[00:22:07] So we, and I guess that's where the dysfunctional comes from, isn't it? We're into function, but we're into that place where it's, it's, this has worked for me before, and this is an instinctive way of me trying to keep myself safe. And, but how that plays out in teams is then, you know, that's making someone else feel unsafe and then they're doing their particular, um, brand of, of dysfunction.

[00:22:33] And, yeah, I just, I just find it so fascinating.

[00:22:38] Ross: Me too. I absolutely agree. And it really, the way you articulate it really resonates with me and my experience of many teams of adults. And

[00:22:48] I get to think of you from now on when I'm working with teams, thinking of Hazel the fearless, because I think that's what we owe these teams. That, that fearlessness that will go to places and. And allow them to explore those places of discomfort. And if we can hold them there, I think that's, that's a, a truly great gift we can give to a team.

[00:23:11] Hazel: And it's, it's the safety bit as well, isn't it? So I think, you know, and you'll know this as someone that, you know, works a lot with teams. As you're developing your skill, It's like you have a sixth sense, don't you? Or you can kind of smell the fear and you, you make a decision about how safe that space is and where you're able to go and whether you want to, open up the box or, or call out the elephant in the room and, and you have to be brave enough to be prepared to be challenged.

[00:23:43] So there'll definitely be times afterwards where the person that's commissioned the work for me has said, but I really wanted you to go there. Or, you know, this, this had been the outcome that we'd really wanted from this. It's very easy to say that, isn't it? But when you're in the room, and your responsibility is [00:24:00] keeping those people safe, and having, having the con, the conversations that are right for that moment, you have to go with your judgment, and that comes over time.

[00:24:09] but you also have to be prepared to, I don't know, let, let the commissioner down in a way, and say that That wasn't right for now.

[00:24:18] Ross: And if we, if we can explain why perhaps we didn't go there, because we felt it, it wasn't safe. With that, I agree with that sort of sixth sense. That we're thinking, this actually, if I do raise this thing now, it could cause more problems actually.

[00:24:34] Hazel: and that big question, isn't it? That as coaches we hold all the time, you know, who is this in service of? So if I ask this question or if I pose this to the group, who is it in service? Is it in service to this team? Is it going to get them to the place that they need to go to? Um, and I think. I think that's why sometimes it frustrates me when people look at, you know, those of us that work in training or facilitation and it's kind of, Oh, anybody can do that.

[00:25:04] but the skill is in what is happening below water, isn't it?

[00:25:10] Ross: goodness me, yes, it's, it's, people, people say it quite flippantly, don't they? Like, reading the room. I think we develop skills, which are still under development, to, to read the room. And notice those. Looks or those sort of micro behaviors

[00:25:28] and then as you say, we're making that choice in the moment of what do we do next?

[00:25:32] And just double checking who is this? Who is this in the service of?

[00:25:37] Hazel: And I don't know about you, but I put quite clear boundaries in when we move to doing much more, you know, online. So there are certain things that I will do with groups online. And there are certain things I absolutely won't. And because I can't keep. I'm safe and I can't use as many of my spider senses as I would normally, and [00:26:00] I think that's why it's a positive now that we're getting much more to a mixed model, aren't we?

[00:26:04] We're coming back into spaces together, Which is really important. And when we're talking so much, isn't it, in group work is about developing trust, whatever I'm doing with that group, I've got in my mind that by the end of our time together, this group will have improved in trust in some way.

[00:26:21] And that's really hard when you're not in physically in the same space.

[00:26:26] Ross: Yeah. Yeah. I hear you. And you talked about your, your interest in act and, and how you're part of the, the Joe Oliver contextual consulting stable as we both are. And I love it that we're both there offering workplace focused, approaches to act. I think it's, I think it's a lovely branch of his offering.

[00:26:48] And I think there's lots of curiosity for, um, So, um, I'm going to be talking about the importance of having therapists and clinical psychologists in, in what we do. it's a joy to collaborate with him as well. when did you discover Act Hazel?

[00:27:01] Hazel: So. It was at a BPS Occupational Psychology Conference, so it must have been about a year after my daughter was born. I was escaping for the first time for Weekend Aware, I was very excited. And it was in Brighton again, there was, I just keep coming back to Brighton. And um, I went to the bookshop, so I was supposed to be in a lecture, but I, I was just lured in by the, the psychology bookshop.

[00:27:24] And I picked up this book, which will be

[00:27:27] very familiar to you.

[00:27:28] Ross: for those just listening to the audio, it's the mindful and effective employee by my. My good friend Paul Flexman, Frank Bond, and Frederick Livheim. Yeah.

[00:27:37] Hazel: Yeah, and I think, because obviously there's no big kind of act on the top of the front of it, is there? It's very, you know, this is, this was about mindfulness in my mind. So I was like, oh, this is interesting and Took it home. It probably sat there for for a few months as these books do and then yeah and one day I picked it up and I started reading it and [00:28:00] I had Struggled with post natal depression myself and I'd, I'd had, counseling and I had, a mindfulness teacher who, I'd gone to see once a week and she'd been really helpful.

[00:28:14] And I, when I read the book, it was, it was like lots of things clicked into place. And I thought, Oh, this is, this is really interesting. And I went Googling and that's when I found. contextual consulting and the courses. And so I started going along, I felt like a bit of an interloper. So I started going along with therapists and just learning it, I don't, I wasn't then thinking about integrating it into coaching.

[00:28:41] I think when I first went, it was just, I'm really interested in this and, Really interested for myself and I think I was doing some resilience training. So I started to integrate it into, into the training that I was delivering. And I just, I just got hooked. And I think this happens to a lot of people, doesn't it?

[00:28:58] So I was, I went on every training course that I could find. I feel like I should have got one of those, you know, the stamps, like in a cafe.

[00:29:07] Ross: like a frequent flyer.

[00:29:09] Provided a framework

[00:29:09] Hazel: Yeah. and I feel like, I know other people have said about being evangelical about ACT, but it really did feel Like it provided a framework, for a lot of things that made sense to me.

[00:29:22] So I'd always been interested in Eastern philosophy and, and obviously the values piece without knowing it. and I guess, you know, for me, I dabbled like in and out of religion. and again, I think it enabled me to define my own. structure of, you know, the values gave me that, okay, what is important to me?

[00:29:41] and then adding in this whole piece around thoughts, which was quite a new piece for me. And yeah, it, it, it just made sense.

[00:29:51] Ross: I love that. It just made sense. Yeah, that's exactly how I felt when I first discovered that. Blimey! just makes sense and I wish I'd discovered [00:30:00] this decades ago.

[00:30:01] Hazel: Yeah. So at that time, I think I was, I just started as a guest lecturer in work psychology at Winchester University. And I said, I have to teach this to students because, Oh my gosh. I mean, I'd had a critical mind. I mean, it's still, it still has its moments, but I remember as a student. That was when it felt like life got particularly hard for me, and my mind was particularly horrible to me, and it drove me to get those qualifications that you spoke about, but it was not a fun time, and so it I started delivering ACT sessions to psychology students, and it's fascinating, isn't it?

[00:30:46] Because psychology students, you think would have some awareness of, of those types of, of techniques, but it was like, it was real kind of like, wow, this, this is amazing. Yeah, it does feel like, and I guess, you know, this, I know we're going to talk about the book later, but this drive to, you know, join that act ethos of generosity.

[00:31:08] Helping people to be human

[00:31:08] Hazel: When you discover something that can help people to be human, and to just navigate the challenges of being human, it isn't right, is it, that you keep that to yourself and that you, that you guard it. I think that, every act practitioner that I have, have met has been, yeah, so generous and so, so much part of this movement to share, those techniques with other people.

[00:31:34] Ross: Oh, that's, that's lovely. It's a joy to hear you talk about that and the way you, the way you hold it and pass it on. Love it. Now, thinking back to Hazel at school and thinking from the position you are now, is there any advice you'd offer young Hazel in her school days?

[00:31:58] Hazel: don't wear [00:32:00] berets because people, people will beat you up.

[00:32:05] Um,

[00:32:07] Ross: Oh

[00:32:07] Hazel: dear. I think there is that thing of, I mean, it, it all felt quite serious. I mean, you've read the book, haven't you? So you know that. academic achievement was the way that I got positive attention from my father and, it became something that I therefore held very tightly and became something that was very important to me. and I was unwell during my first degree and I ended up getting a tutu, which was It was so devastating to me, so devastating.

[00:32:49] And I, I couldn't even go to my graduation. It was so painful. And I don't know, actually, if I would have gone on to do a psychology degree. It's kind of, I had to, I don't know, to prove to myself. That I wasn't that person. So I went on to do, you know, another degree to make up for that one. what would I say to myself that would, that would help?

[00:33:12] I'd like to give myself an act book to start off with. Um, but I think, like, you're more, you're more than your grades. You're more than what you achieve. and And to go and play, so again, I think, I mean, I enjoy study, so, but I became kind of very much about, that. I'm also, I mean, I painted, when I was younger, I did a lot of painting and I think I could have gone that route.

[00:33:44] I could have gone to art college. rather than doing A levels, but that art wasn't seen as a proper subject. So, um, so I went down the route. And I think that is hard for people, isn't it? You know when you've got, if you've got some kind of academic [00:34:00] bent. So I loved, I mean, I love maths. Art and maths. and so it was obvious. I think that I would go and, you know, study and, do the thing that would result in me getting paid

[00:34:14] potentially good money, rather than the thing that was creative and, and a bit more risky. And it's interesting now because I've got a nine year old daughter and I'm actually worried that I'm not pushy enough.

[00:34:28] So I am so, I will go with what she wants. So she is also creative and I'm, you know, I'm not pushing her to do extracurricular activities. it was fascinating. I mean, she's obviously already so much more sorted than me, but I remember, so she was playing tennis and, and I was saying, Oh, you know, you're quite good at tennis.

[00:34:47] Would you like some lessons? And she said, Well, no, because mommy, they're going to make me repeat the same thing over and over again. And I just want to play. And I just want to enjoy it. You know, you're like, ugh, yeah. Maybe if I'd had some of her, some of her essence, that she can see that. whereas for me, it was like, oh, actually I could get good at this.

[00:35:10] I could please someone, I could, yeah,

[00:35:13] Ross: Wow. And I see that playfulness in your work and your writing now, is that something you relate to when you hear me say that?

[00:35:23] Hazel: yeah. And it's, it's something that I have had to let myself open up to, and I think I did it cautiously over time, but the feedback that I started getting, particularly when I started talking about burnout, was that I bring lightness to heavy topics. And I think when I first started, you know, doing any kind of training, I was quite, I wanted to be seen as credible. And this will still happen if I go into certain groups. I will close down a bit of that part of myself. But I [00:36:00] think, When I started working with the NHS and the people that I was working with, it was like they were hungry for, for the humanness and they were hungry for the humour.

[00:36:10] Because, you know, actually bringing in a bit of joy, making people laugh, it's all part of it, isn't it? even when life is really, really tough, There is always something that can make you smile or there's something that you can laugh about. I do a lot of work with the fire service and again, you know, well known for dealing with really, really, horrific things.

[00:36:30] And also, you know, using humor, as a way to be okay. So I think I found my spaces where that style of. Yeah, bringing, I don't say bring your whole self, but you know what I mean, bringing, bringing more of the quirkiness in, yeah.

[00:36:51] Ross: absolutely get that, and I guess we know when to dial that up and dial it down a bit. We can use those, that sense we were describing earlier to do that, and maybe sometimes just testing the boundaries a bit,

[00:37:05] Hazel: Yeah, it's when you get the tumbleweed,

[00:37:07] Ross: yes,

[00:37:08] Hazel: isn't it? I did a session for head teachers a year ago. and I think I was being quite mindful about how much hazelness I brought into the sessions and I was getting some, you know, I don't know if it was curious faces or, you know, that kind of like, who is, who is this person? and amazingly, they've, they all came back a year later.

[00:37:30] the feedback was, yeah, no, we liked, this person who was. Able to be, I think, be credible, you know, be in that space of saying I know this stuff, I know what I'm talking about, and I also feel okay to share the, some of my messiness, and some of my imperfection, and just to be, you know, be with you in it, and I think that, that is something that to me is so [00:38:00] important, As it makes me think of social identity theory, this whole, like, we rather than I, I'm not standing up in front of people saying, I've got everything sorted, and I am teaching you how to do it so that you can follow in my footsteps.

[00:38:12] I am saying I'm in it. In the mess, and maybe, you know, I've, I've got a little bit of an idea, how we can navigate this bit of it, and maybe that would be helpful to you. and I think when you, when you share some of the funny stories, and you share some of, you know, that humanness, that, It makes other people feel safe to take their own masks off a little bit.

[00:38:37] Ross: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. and it's very act consistent, if we can demonstrate we're experiencing the same human condition that everyone else is and not positioning ourselves on a pedestal, I think that's invaluable as a, as a stance for us as we facilitate work with groups.

[00:38:54] Hazel: Mm.

[00:38:55] Ross: Now Hazel, I'm keen to get onto the book, but before I do, I want to ask you a traditional peopleship question, and that's about your song choice.

[00:39:02] And this is a song choice that would announce your arrival in a room, whether it's a real room or a virtual room. It's not forever, maybe it's for the next few weeks. I wonder if you've got a song in mind and could let us know why you chose that song.

[00:39:15] Hazel: So, I am, I am a Swifty. I love Taylor Swift. I went to the Eras tour, you know, the full, kitted out, gold, spangly, yeah. It was amazing. one of the best days of my life. And, so I chose I can do it with a broken heart. Now, the reason that I chose that was, when I first heard it, it reminded me of pre burnout Hazel, who, like I say, I had post natal depression, and I would have these terrible thoughts, and I would feel awful, and then I would rock up at work, and I would be able to perform. Looking back, that was a really painful [00:40:00] time for me, but I think I was really proud of this ability to perform, even though my heart was breaking, at home and then I thought about the way that Taylor, get into my love for Taylor now, um, how she uses music. So her songs are, you know, it's about the way that she processes her emotions and how she works through the stuff that happens to her.

[00:40:23] And again, you know, I was thinking. It doesn't have to be that way. She, she stood up on stage while she was going through heartbreak and it wasn't that she stayed in that space, you know, she's, she's moved on. And I think this, it reminds me that so many of us, I would say the majority of us are walking around with our hearts broken for different reasons and we're doing it.

[00:40:46] We're doing the thing. We're doing the stuff that's important to us, even though, you know, we're carrying around our own pain. and Sorry, I feel like I'm bringing the mood down now. But, but it is, to me, it's that anthem of you can still do it with a broken heart. It, it, it's, yeah.

[00:41:06] The both, both things are available to you.

[00:41:08] Mm-hmm

[00:41:09] Ross: thank you. And I think, I'm not familiar with that particular song. I am a kind of peripheral Swifty, I would say. I'm a fan, but obviously not as deep as you, although I'm looking, and I can't see any friendship bracelets there, Hazel.

[00:41:21] Hazel: Not today.

[00:41:23] Ross: Not today.

[00:41:30] That's it folks, part one of my chat with Hazel in the bag. But fear not, Hazel will be back next week to talk about her brilliant book. Coaching through burnout. You'll find the show notes for this episode at peoplesoup. captivate. fm or wherever you get your podcasts. if you liked this episode, I'd love it if you told us why. You can email at peoplesoup. pod at gmail. com and there are some changes on the socials, Peasoopers. I've stopped posting on [00:42:00] Twitter because I no longer value the place it has become. And I've also retired my Facebook page for PeopleSoup.

[00:42:06] I'm still posting on Instagram at people. soup. And I'm on LinkedIn too, as well as a new account on BlueSky. Just search for my name. Now, more than ever, you can help me reach more people with the special PeopleSoup ingredients.

[00:42:18] Stuff that could really be useful for them. So please do share, subscribe, rate and review. Thanks to Andy Glenn for his spoon magic. And Alex Engelberg for his vocals. But most of all, dear listener, thanks to you.

[00:42:32] Look after yourselves, Peasoopers, and bye for now.

[00:42:37] They are obsessed with your dog, who I believe is called Luca, and if I've got this right, is a cock a doodle poo.

[00:42:48] Hazel: He's a cockapoo. Yeah.

[00:42:49] Ross: Oh! Is that my misunderstanding?

[00:42:54] Hazel: the breeder that we bought him for, from, is called, I think called Cock a doodle doo.